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#98 Matthew Smith - Founder Of Really Good Emails On Designing Relationships

Matthew Smith is the founder of Really Good Emails - the web’s best, and most attractive, curated collection of over 6,955 emails, showing off both design and code.

He is working on a new tool for teams to easily collaborate on email changes.

Twitter: https://twitter.com/whale

Transcript
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and then finally i landed on this phrase

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that

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that defines what i do now which is i

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design relationship

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between people and organizations that

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drive human positive

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impact i love that that's what i do yeah

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that's what i'm going gonna do the rest

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of my life

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[Music]

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matthew smith how you doing my friend

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i'm glad to be here dude yeah life is

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wild

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and uh here we are in the middle of

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pandemic or maybe we're at the beginning

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still i don't know man

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but uh you know i'm doing really well i

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mean there's so much to be grateful for

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so

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glad to be here though that's awesome

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man i i've been um

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i noticed some of your tweets where you

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post about gratefulness and i've been

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uh working on being more uh proactive

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about

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being grateful for things and stuff and

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um lately i've been thinking about my

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dad a lot and just

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expressing gratitude for

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having a really like loving supportive

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dad you know

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um he actually passed away a few months

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ago um oh man

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yeah wow but uh so but it was a it was a

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period of time where

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uh he had als and so it's a couple years

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where he was kind of declining so we

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saw it coming and got to say our

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goodbyes and stuff

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uh this is a real heavy opening to a

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podcast

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i hear that but like i'm like fuck yeah

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let's dive in man

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[Laughter]

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this shit like i've been thinking so

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much about my own mortality

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yeah over the last couple of years you

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know i

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you and i have talked about it but i've

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i'm sober you know

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a little over four and a half years now

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and

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something about that process really

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popped

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that into view and then

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uh more recently um

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my you know maybe it's the pandemic but

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my folks are getting older

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and it's just brought to

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my mind the reality that i'm you know

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that i

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am probably halfway through my life um

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but i could be minutes away you know

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from the end

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yeah um and i've been reading a lot of

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tick not han

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and thinking about like that there is no

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beginning to life there is no end to

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life there's only change

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and uh you know this idea that our

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matter

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doesn't go away it just becomes

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something else

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yeah um but i anyway i'm thinking about

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what you said about your

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your dad i mean that's really unique man

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um

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the relationship you had with him and

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then uh

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to lose him it sounds like i'm gonna

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guess you know you're

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in your late 30s early 40s and

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to lose you know a dad at that age just

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earlier than some

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and that's got to be hard how did you

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and your family

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uh work through it it was a process from

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when we

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heard about the diagnosis to you know we

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we did some cool stuff together when my

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dad was still walking around

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and we um went to uh did a trip to

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disney world and stuff like that

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with the whole family and that's fun

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yeah we we really made some great

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memories and stuff

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and um and then like the very the very

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last day

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like i went out there to la and was with

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him and

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he was kind of in and out of

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consciousness at that time and it had

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gotten pretty

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pretty bad with his breathing and stuff

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like that um but we had this amazing

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last day where i was with my dad's wife

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and

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my brother was there and then we had

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some words

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with my dad um like at the very end and

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just

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really felt a sense of saying goodbye

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um and like my dad like i

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the thing i was so inspired by was how

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my dad

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was so full of life and

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like not not any bitterness or

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resentment or anything like that to the

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very end and like the relationship he

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had with his wife is so

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like magical they just they they were

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like like they're like they're what i

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want to be

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like in terms of the level of happiness

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love and support

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and playfulness and just fun and um

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you know like it's cool yeah so um

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it was uh it was i feel as i as i

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talked a little bit about it publicly

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and heard from some people

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a lot i'd hear from people that would

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say like oh you know my dad died five

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years ago and i'm still not

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over it i think there's this really big

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difference between when you have a sense

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of closure and when you don't

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um i think it makes uh makes a huge

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difference

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and so um yeah so i'm

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i'm really grateful for that and um you

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know he's always just real loving and

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supportive

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and um i know that's not the case for

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everybody

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you know and um it's really unique yeah

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it's uh and it's something that i think

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if you don't have

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um it i think some people can chase

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their whole life

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like trying to fill you know that that

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void that they might have

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you know and so uh yeah i've been

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grateful for it but

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yeah i really appreciate like your

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twitter like i was thinking about this

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morning

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and i feel like it's one of the more

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like soulful

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twitter pages in in tech or in my circle

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and and i like that like you it's a

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combination of email

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and stuff and design and being a dad

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and um this stuff you talk about related

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to addiction recovery and stuff like

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that

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and it's beautiful man it's uh it's cool

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it's really cool to see

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thanks dude it's uh it's just kind of

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the the big picture of who i am you know

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it's uh

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there was a time when i kind of kept

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those things a little more separated

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and i about a year and a half ago i

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started

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really rethinking everything about work

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what do i want this to be about what do

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i want to really do

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um why am i here you know um

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maybe not even in a big cosmic sense

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like

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like some other being has determined a

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purpose for me

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but more like you know what kind of

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contribution do i want to

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leave for my family for the world

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um and i worked with a guy

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named will gray who has

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his own process but it's similar to like

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a simon sinek

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start with why type of thing and we

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looked back across

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all the work and all the things that i

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had done over the last

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more or less 20 years and

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you know it was really interesting to

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see these different times when i was

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really frustrated in times when i was

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really excited

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and times when i was really engaged and

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times when i was really stressed and

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times when i was really relaxed and

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what were the markers you know like what

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defined each of those areas

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and it was it was an interesting

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practice

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and it it correlated with something i

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had already

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also done uh maybe a year previous to

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that

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which was to do something similar with

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all the relationships the

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significant other relationships i'd ever

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had with with women

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including my ex-wife and um

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trying to understand what are the

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characteristics you know what did it

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what is it that

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i'm looking for and what was i looking

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for in the past

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and i actually did this um spreadsheet i

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can share with you it's pretty crazy

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um it's i found something like 600

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uh character traits total you know

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different lists of them online i

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alphabetized them

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put them all in a big fucking list and

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then i went down the list

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and said yes yes yes i'm looking for

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this i want somebody with this

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and this and this and i got it down to

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about you know 50 or 60

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and then i'm thinking wait a second

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that's way too many really pared it down

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i know right yeah as if um and so then i

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paired it further down obviously and i

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got down to about 15 and i felt like all

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right this is

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this is good and then from that list i

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looked at

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which on this list are uh

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characteristics that i think i have or

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am i asking somebody

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to be totally different and better than

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me

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and i'm not willing to make those

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changes in my own life

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and all but one of them was true i

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one that i was looking for in a partner

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was cheerful

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and i'm not cheerful like i can laugh i

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really like to laugh

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fucking hard but i'm not cheerful i'm a

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moody motherfucker

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so it's like you know i mean i need

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somebody like

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a little bit happy you know right um

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but it was interesting because i i

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looked at this list i look and i

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through this list and some other more

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detail i won't go into it but it's

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basically i came up with like what is

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what is the job of relationship in my

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life like what do i want out of it

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what do i want to put into it um what

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are the red flags

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that i will not have in a relationship

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again

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meaning i will not be in relationship

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with someone who cannot share their

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emotions and feelings with me

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i will not be in a relationship with

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someone who is not emotionally available

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like more or less somebody who's an

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avoidant attachment type

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and that's not because those people are

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bad it's because i'm an

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anxious attachment type moving towards

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secure

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and anxious and avoidant is like a

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disaster waiting to happen

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so and i've y i can give you a podcast

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worth of material just on that

0:10:02.560,0:10:06.640
um but basically i learned all these

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things

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what was interesting is they really

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applied to work as well

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and i realized in so much of the work

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in different times when i was frustrated

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is when i was trying to do

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when i was doing a greater proportion of

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management

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than creating so i need to have a role

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where i'm doing more creating than

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management

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or i'm very unhappy and i'm good enough

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at management that i can do it

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but when i start to really like my

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creation bucket gets really low

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i get very unhappy um and then i

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discovered some things like when the

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degree of complexity in my management

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gets

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big uh or or higher

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more complex then i get more and more

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stressed and more and more unhappy so

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if there is if there are six projects

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and each of those projects has three

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people working on them and i have to

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manage and maintain

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quality across all of those as too much

0:11:06.320,0:11:10.720
if we have three projects but the same

0:11:08.800,0:11:13.680
three or four people are working on them

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no problem you know especially if i'm

0:11:13.680,0:11:17.600
creating a lot

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in those projects so things like that

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and then finally i

0:11:18.720,0:11:22.399
landed on this phrase that that defines

0:11:21.760,0:11:25.519
what i do

0:11:22.399,0:11:28.079
now which is i design relationship

0:11:25.519,0:11:29.440
between people and organizations that

0:11:28.079,0:11:32.079
drive human positive

0:11:29.440,0:11:33.360
impact i love that that's what i do yeah

0:11:32.079,0:11:33.920
that's what i'm gonna do the rest of my

0:11:33.360,0:11:36.079
life

0:11:33.920,0:11:37.440
yeah and it's about designing

0:11:36.079,0:11:40.160
relationship do i design

0:11:37.440,0:11:41.279
interfaces sometimes do i design

0:11:40.160,0:11:45.279
marketing language

0:11:41.279,0:11:46.959
sometimes do i design brands sometimes

0:11:45.279,0:11:49.200
what do all those things have to do in

0:11:46.959,0:11:52.240
common i'm designing relationship

0:11:49.200,0:11:54.480
i love the relationship between a

0:11:52.240,0:11:56.720
business or an organization

0:11:54.480,0:11:59.200
that does something has something a

0:11:56.720,0:12:02.560
service whatever

0:11:59.200,0:12:05.279
and when a a consumer

0:12:02.560,0:12:06.639
right a person has a need for that

0:12:05.279,0:12:08.560
service or

0:12:06.639,0:12:12.000
organization or whatever it is that

0:12:08.560,0:12:13.440
there's a connection a value exchange

0:12:12.000,0:12:15.120
you know and it doesn't have to always

0:12:13.440,0:12:16.639
be economic but

0:12:15.120,0:12:18.560
sometimes it is sometimes it's not but

0:12:16.639,0:12:20.800
it's just that's exciting to me

0:12:18.560,0:12:22.720
and then when those things are driving

0:12:20.800,0:12:25.040
human positive impact

0:12:22.720,0:12:26.560
i don't have a problem with um

0:12:25.040,0:12:29.360
organizations or companies

0:12:26.560,0:12:31.040
companies that don't at all but i want

0:12:29.360,0:12:34.560
to focus my energy my

0:12:31.040,0:12:37.440
time on the ones that do and so

0:12:34.560,0:12:38.000
to wrap it up is where i've been heading

0:12:37.440,0:12:40.160
in the last

0:12:38.000,0:12:41.519
three months is i'm starting a new

0:12:40.160,0:12:45.760
agency

0:12:41.519,0:12:47.519
i sunset my agency fathom and draft

0:12:45.760,0:12:49.519
and i'm starting a new agency called

0:12:47.519,0:12:51.440
bunsen with

0:12:49.519,0:12:52.959
my partner and one of my best friends

0:12:51.440,0:12:56.800
michael polanski

0:12:52.959,0:13:00.560
and he's um he's really dialed in

0:12:56.800,0:13:01.440
on uh biotech and life sciences he's

0:13:00.560,0:13:04.399
just really

0:13:01.440,0:13:05.040
uh well connected in that space he is

0:13:04.399,0:13:08.160
currently

0:13:05.040,0:13:11.200
i think uh his official title is

0:13:08.160,0:13:14.079
uh director or ceo of the um

0:13:11.200,0:13:15.760
parker institute for commun um cancer

0:13:14.079,0:13:18.000
immunotherapy

0:13:15.760,0:13:18.880
and so that's sean parker's cancer

0:13:18.000,0:13:22.480
institute

0:13:18.880,0:13:24.320
and he runs a lot of biotech and life

0:13:22.480,0:13:25.760
sciences companies himself and these are

0:13:24.320,0:13:29.600
companies that are doing

0:13:25.760,0:13:32.880
next level unbelievable things to help

0:13:29.600,0:13:36.160
change and improve the human experience

0:13:32.880,0:13:38.240
at a health benefit level um

0:13:36.160,0:13:39.680
you know there was another uh company

0:13:38.240,0:13:42.560
that we did some work for

0:13:39.680,0:13:43.839
called aether and they are mapping the

0:13:42.560,0:13:47.360
enzyme space

0:13:43.839,0:13:48.560
so enzymes create you know plastics like

0:13:47.360,0:13:50.959
on our headphones

0:13:48.560,0:13:52.399
but they also uh are part of the

0:13:50.959,0:13:54.639
material that makes like in

0:13:52.399,0:13:55.680
inside petri dishes you know like that

0:13:54.639,0:13:59.680
the

0:13:55.680,0:14:00.320
you know the the matter the material the

0:13:59.680,0:14:03.760
medium

0:14:00.320,0:14:07.440
that of those is a special recipe

0:14:03.760,0:14:10.560
well we only know something like 1

0:14:07.440,0:14:13.360
100 000 of

0:14:10.560,0:14:14.720
all available enzyme combinations we

0:14:13.360,0:14:16.000
just haven't had the time or the

0:14:14.720,0:14:19.120
technology to discover

0:14:16.000,0:14:20.399
all those so they're using robotics and

0:14:19.120,0:14:22.639
machine learning

0:14:20.399,0:14:23.440
to model all those out to basically

0:14:22.639,0:14:25.839
index

0:14:23.440,0:14:28.000
all those possibilities so that they

0:14:25.839,0:14:29.440
become the google of all the enzyme

0:14:28.000,0:14:32.000
possibilities think about

0:14:29.440,0:14:34.560
what what could be invented the kind of

0:14:32.000,0:14:37.600
organisms or microorganisms or like

0:14:34.560,0:14:38.880
um you know you know chemical

0:14:37.600,0:14:41.600
combinations really

0:14:38.880,0:14:43.360
that can work together to you know

0:14:41.600,0:14:44.480
create things that really improve human

0:14:43.360,0:14:46.959
experience

0:14:44.480,0:14:49.040
so it's just stuff like this just gets

0:14:46.959,0:14:50.639
me all kind of amped up these days and i

0:14:49.040,0:14:53.680
realized i just didn't want to work on

0:14:50.639,0:14:56.079
any more like social apps or like

0:14:53.680,0:14:57.120
stuff that wasn't wasn't like actually

0:14:56.079,0:15:00.160
doing that

0:14:57.120,0:15:02.000
um anyway so that's what i'm always

0:15:00.160,0:15:04.560
talking about yeah i love that i had

0:15:02.000,0:15:06.240
seen um i think your post on that

0:15:04.560,0:15:07.519
and and i remember that phrase the human

0:15:06.240,0:15:08.720
positive change and i was kind of

0:15:07.519,0:15:12.639
curious

0:15:08.720,0:15:14.399
um what that was looking like and um

0:15:12.639,0:15:16.160
that's really cool man there's so much

0:15:14.399,0:15:19.920
when it comes to

0:15:16.160,0:15:21.760
medical tech um biotech like it's a

0:15:19.920,0:15:22.560
world that i don't know that much about

0:15:21.760,0:15:25.760
but

0:15:22.560,0:15:28.160
there's uh there's so much there uh

0:15:25.760,0:15:29.920
to improve people's lives extend

0:15:28.160,0:15:31.759
people's lives i mean

0:15:29.920,0:15:33.040
would you consider yourself a techno

0:15:31.759,0:15:36.560
optimist

0:15:33.040,0:15:37.759
because there's uh you know there's

0:15:36.560,0:15:40.880
that's a good question

0:15:37.759,0:15:41.519
yeah i'm uh right now i'm in the middle

0:15:40.880,0:15:44.399
of uh

0:15:41.519,0:15:46.800
ready player two which is uh you know it

0:15:44.399,0:15:50.079
just came out this last weekend i think

0:15:46.800,0:15:54.000
and um it's it's so far

0:15:50.079,0:15:55.279
it's pretty pretty dark pretty heavy um

0:15:54.000,0:15:57.199
seeing where things are getting and i

0:15:55.279,0:15:57.839
have a suspicion it's going to get

0:15:57.199,0:16:01.040
heavier

0:15:57.839,0:16:02.480
through the book and

0:16:01.040,0:16:05.279
you know i've read some interesting

0:16:02.480,0:16:07.440
science fiction around

0:16:05.279,0:16:10.399
philosophical things like there's a

0:16:07.440,0:16:12.399
great book called the truth machine

0:16:10.399,0:16:13.600
that is predicated on this idea of

0:16:12.399,0:16:14.639
people being able to have like a

0:16:13.600,0:16:17.440
wearable

0:16:14.639,0:16:19.920
that could essentially uh let you know

0:16:17.440,0:16:23.440
if the person who's speaking to you is

0:16:19.920,0:16:26.160
is uh speaking truthfully or not and if

0:16:23.440,0:16:26.880
everybody has this device you know

0:16:26.160,0:16:30.480
imagine

0:16:26.880,0:16:32.320
the net effect right um and

0:16:30.480,0:16:33.839
so you know i think about that i think

0:16:32.320,0:16:35.279
about like what's going on i

0:16:33.839,0:16:37.839
i guess i wouldn't really consider

0:16:35.279,0:16:41.920
myself an optimist or

0:16:37.839,0:16:46.160
or a pessimist i i tend to think

0:16:41.920,0:16:49.440
uh in terms of um

0:16:46.160,0:16:51.920
looking at us as organisms so

0:16:49.440,0:16:52.880
i i used to belong to you know the

0:16:51.920,0:16:56.320
christian faith

0:16:52.880,0:16:58.720
and that uh

0:16:56.320,0:16:59.680
i was excommunicated through uh from my

0:16:58.720,0:17:02.800
church

0:16:59.680,0:17:05.760
uh during the divorce not for any

0:17:02.800,0:17:07.919
kind of infidelity but i you know i was

0:17:05.760,0:17:10.400
a very selfish person in my alcoholism

0:17:07.919,0:17:14.000
and i think that was sort of the

0:17:10.400,0:17:17.520
their you know what they were doing and

0:17:14.000,0:17:18.000
in that process i evolved as a human

0:17:17.520,0:17:19.760
being for

0:17:18.000,0:17:21.199
me this is evolution for me i'm not

0:17:19.760,0:17:23.439
saying that if

0:17:21.199,0:17:25.439
people evolve they will move away from

0:17:23.439,0:17:28.880
faith that's not what i'm saying

0:17:25.439,0:17:30.240
um but for me i evolved into a place of

0:17:28.880,0:17:33.200
really understanding

0:17:30.240,0:17:34.400
people uh operating out of their

0:17:33.200,0:17:37.440
programming

0:17:34.400,0:17:41.280
and that includes everybody from trump

0:17:37.440,0:17:43.840
and biden and obama and me and you

0:17:41.280,0:17:46.240
and you know um the trolls on the

0:17:43.840,0:17:48.320
internet and whatever else right like

0:17:46.240,0:17:49.280
we're all operating out of programming

0:17:48.320,0:17:52.640
so

0:17:49.280,0:17:55.679
from my perspective one of the

0:17:52.640,0:17:56.080
you know most helpful things that i can

0:17:55.679,0:17:59.600
do

0:17:56.080,0:18:00.000
to give a little more chance to the

0:17:59.600,0:18:03.120
human

0:18:00.000,0:18:05.360
race and who knows if that's

0:18:03.120,0:18:07.200
if that is actually effective or not but

0:18:05.360,0:18:09.360
is to

0:18:07.200,0:18:10.960
talk about this and work through this

0:18:09.360,0:18:12.240
with others help people through their

0:18:10.960,0:18:15.120
trauma experiences

0:18:12.240,0:18:15.760
help people heal help people grow help

0:18:15.120,0:18:17.919
people

0:18:15.760,0:18:18.880
uh in some of their personal evolution

0:18:17.919,0:18:22.000
and

0:18:18.880,0:18:25.039
you know work on some of these um

0:18:22.000,0:18:26.160
uh effects that uh you know that are

0:18:25.039,0:18:29.120
moving

0:18:26.160,0:18:30.080
uh our our health uh and our wellness

0:18:29.120,0:18:32.000
and our species

0:18:30.080,0:18:33.120
forward you know and the possibility for

0:18:32.000,0:18:35.840
invention

0:18:33.120,0:18:37.440
i mean that said uh to answer your

0:18:35.840,0:18:40.480
question like when i think about

0:18:37.440,0:18:43.760
uh elon musk wanting to put you know

0:18:40.480,0:18:45.600
uh devices that attach to our brains

0:18:43.760,0:18:47.840
um that's like essentially what's

0:18:45.600,0:18:49.600
happening in ready player two and

0:18:47.840,0:18:50.960
ready player two is describing kind of

0:18:49.600,0:18:54.080
what i imagine will happen

0:18:50.960,0:18:54.960
which is you know uh if we can be

0:18:54.080,0:18:58.720
addicted

0:18:54.960,0:19:02.080
to something as simple as

0:18:58.720,0:19:02.080
uh you know

0:19:02.640,0:19:09.520
something like alcohol for one or

0:19:06.640,0:19:10.080
um relationship people being addicted to

0:19:09.520,0:19:12.160
like the

0:19:10.080,0:19:13.840
feeling of relationship the excitement

0:19:12.160,0:19:17.360
of relationship

0:19:13.840,0:19:18.880
um substances but also our brain is

0:19:17.360,0:19:22.720
really wired

0:19:18.880,0:19:23.679
to uh to connect with that dopamine

0:19:22.720,0:19:26.559
experience

0:19:23.679,0:19:27.520
if that's the case then a lot of

0:19:26.559,0:19:30.720
technology

0:19:27.520,0:19:32.240
amplifies that yeah right um

0:19:30.720,0:19:33.919
one of the things that came up in ready

0:19:32.240,0:19:35.280
player two that really connected with me

0:19:33.919,0:19:36.400
this weekend when i was running and

0:19:35.280,0:19:39.120
listening to it

0:19:36.400,0:19:39.679
was this idea of you know the social

0:19:39.120,0:19:41.120
space

0:19:39.679,0:19:43.200
like you we were talking about twitter

0:19:41.120,0:19:45.679
and i'm on twitter and um

0:19:43.200,0:19:47.280
but recently i got off of instagram and

0:19:45.679,0:19:48.240
i haven't been on facebook for a long

0:19:47.280,0:19:52.000
time

0:19:48.240,0:19:53.760
but it's um it's this

0:19:52.000,0:19:55.919
idea that like i'm actually trying just

0:19:53.760,0:19:56.320
to spend whatever energy i would have

0:19:55.919,0:19:59.840
spent

0:19:56.320,0:20:02.960
on any of those platforms um with my

0:19:59.840,0:20:05.840
my much smaller circle

0:20:02.960,0:20:07.360
and it thinking about that i have a

0:20:05.840,0:20:10.880
limited amount of energy

0:20:07.360,0:20:14.400
limited amount of time um you know that

0:20:10.880,0:20:17.520
my whatever resources are at my disposal

0:20:14.400,0:20:20.880
they're limited and so how can i

0:20:17.520,0:20:22.720
conserve those so that the potency

0:20:20.880,0:20:25.440
is greatest for the people that matter

0:20:22.720,0:20:28.480
most to me for my children

0:20:25.440,0:20:31.679
you know for my girlfriend

0:20:28.480,0:20:33.280
even for my my ex-wife the kids

0:20:31.679,0:20:34.799
mom i want to make sure that i'm being a

0:20:33.280,0:20:37.840
good co-parent

0:20:34.799,0:20:40.720
for my parents you know my sister

0:20:37.840,0:20:41.520
uh and then and and my you know my close

0:20:40.720,0:20:43.840
friend circle

0:20:41.520,0:20:44.960
yeah and how can i you know tie into

0:20:43.840,0:20:47.120
those so if i'm

0:20:44.960,0:20:48.960
trolling instagram and posting to

0:20:47.120,0:20:50.640
instagram and worried about how many

0:20:48.960,0:20:53.280
likes i got or whatever the fuck

0:20:50.640,0:20:56.159
you know then i'm wasting a lot of

0:20:53.280,0:20:58.559
really valuable resources now that said

0:20:56.159,0:21:00.640
i've been addicted to that throughout my

0:20:58.559,0:21:03.760
life at different times

0:21:00.640,0:21:06.080
so i'm not saying it's not uh

0:21:03.760,0:21:07.840
pleasurable or that it doesn't feel good

0:21:06.080,0:21:09.760
or isn't isn't valuable

0:21:07.840,0:21:10.880
some people like me are much more easily

0:21:09.760,0:21:12.880
addicted yeah

0:21:10.880,0:21:13.919
i don't know man that's a long-winded

0:21:12.880,0:21:17.520
you know

0:21:13.919,0:21:20.880
long-term i'm not sure yeah

0:21:17.520,0:21:24.000
yeah it's messy it's funny i um i

0:21:20.880,0:21:25.840
i think i maybe would say i'm more

0:21:24.000,0:21:27.200
techno-optimist but there there are a

0:21:25.840,0:21:30.400
lot of things that

0:21:27.200,0:21:31.440
seem i mean neural links seems a little

0:21:30.400,0:21:33.919
scary

0:21:31.440,0:21:35.760
um right i think that though a lot of

0:21:33.919,0:21:37.440
the fiction that we see in movies and

0:21:35.760,0:21:40.320
books and things like that

0:21:37.440,0:21:42.640
is geared towards these negative scary

0:21:40.320,0:21:44.960
ideas because those are

0:21:42.640,0:21:46.480
so much more interesting and so much

0:21:44.960,0:21:49.280
more captivating

0:21:46.480,0:21:51.679
um and i think that as simplistic as it

0:21:49.280,0:21:54.000
sounds i think a lot of times those

0:21:51.679,0:21:55.520
uh fictional narratives they kind of

0:21:54.000,0:21:58.000
creep into

0:21:55.520,0:22:00.080
reality and sometimes life imitates art

0:21:58.000,0:22:03.360
and stuff like that and sometimes

0:22:00.080,0:22:03.840
we ex we have expectations around all of

0:22:03.360,0:22:06.000
those

0:22:03.840,0:22:07.600
those negative images and ideas we've

0:22:06.000,0:22:09.360
gotten from fiction

0:22:07.600,0:22:10.960
um but when you're looking at like what

0:22:09.360,0:22:12.000
you're saying about people mapping the

0:22:10.960,0:22:14.320
enzyme space

0:22:12.000,0:22:15.679
and even with neural link i think it can

0:22:14.320,0:22:18.000
solve a lot of

0:22:15.679,0:22:18.960
uh neurodegenerative diseases it can

0:22:18.000,0:22:21.600
help people see

0:22:18.960,0:22:23.679
better it can like there's so many uh

0:22:21.600,0:22:25.600
black and white things that it can do

0:22:23.679,0:22:27.760
to improve health and things like that

0:22:25.600,0:22:29.600
that you know if you're

0:22:27.760,0:22:31.840
if you're kind of optimistic it's like

0:22:29.600,0:22:35.360
yeah that's pretty cool

0:22:31.840,0:22:37.200
i agree yeah i you know wherever we go

0:22:35.360,0:22:41.280
there we are right like

0:22:37.200,0:22:43.679
the humans i the thing that i probably

0:22:41.280,0:22:46.880
am the most optimistic about

0:22:43.679,0:22:49.200
is as the human experience

0:22:46.880,0:22:51.039
at this point and who knows

0:22:49.200,0:22:52.000
environmentally we may kill ourselves

0:22:51.039,0:22:54.880
before it's

0:22:52.000,0:22:55.360
before we are able to really evolve but

0:22:54.880,0:22:58.400
we

0:22:55.360,0:23:00.720
we're in a in a period where

0:22:58.400,0:23:03.600
more humans than ever before are

0:23:00.720,0:23:06.799
experiencing some level of abundance

0:23:03.600,0:23:08.320
now even the most poor in the united

0:23:06.799,0:23:10.960
states are still

0:23:08.320,0:23:11.840
you know within this abundance space you

0:23:10.960,0:23:14.880
know they have

0:23:11.840,0:23:18.480
generally have access to technology

0:23:14.880,0:23:21.600
um wellness programs food

0:23:18.480,0:23:24.400
shelter um it's you know

0:23:21.600,0:23:24.880
in the united states generally speaking

0:23:24.400,0:23:27.520
the

0:23:24.880,0:23:28.080
your only limitation in not getting into

0:23:27.520,0:23:32.480
shelter

0:23:28.080,0:23:35.039
is if you're choosing um your addiction

0:23:32.480,0:23:36.880
over a shelter like there are you know

0:23:35.039,0:23:39.120
requirements to get into shelters and

0:23:36.880,0:23:40.880
things like that and by choosing

0:23:39.120,0:23:42.159
i say that lightly a lot of people don't

0:23:40.880,0:23:44.240
have a choice uh

0:23:42.159,0:23:45.440
they're beyond you know that sort of

0:23:44.240,0:23:47.440
capacity

0:23:45.440,0:23:49.520
uh from my my own experience i would say

0:23:47.440,0:23:52.799
that so um

0:23:49.520,0:23:54.320
but there's just um there's so much

0:23:52.799,0:23:57.919
possibility

0:23:54.320,0:23:59.840
um you know if we

0:23:57.919,0:24:02.640
if we look at what what humans are

0:23:59.840,0:24:06.240
capable of in this abundance we start

0:24:02.640,0:24:07.360
asking more questions like how can i be

0:24:06.240,0:24:10.080
empathetic

0:24:07.360,0:24:11.840
how can i take care of other people how

0:24:10.080,0:24:15.120
can i serve my community

0:24:11.840,0:24:16.960
as that kind of evolution is happening

0:24:15.120,0:24:18.640
more and more i think there is more

0:24:16.960,0:24:22.159
opportunity

0:24:18.640,0:24:25.520
for uh for us to

0:24:22.159,0:24:26.240
be a little more you know tech um wise

0:24:25.520,0:24:29.360
maybe

0:24:26.240,0:24:32.480
is a way to think about it um

0:24:29.360,0:24:37.360
but you know uh there's a great book

0:24:32.480,0:24:39.279
uh by um uh let's see what's his name

0:24:37.360,0:24:40.559
i'm gonna forget his name but the book

0:24:39.279,0:24:43.760
is um

0:24:40.559,0:24:46.320
the body keeps the score and

0:24:43.760,0:24:47.520
uh man just really rocked my world and

0:24:46.320,0:24:49.840
what it talks about

0:24:47.520,0:24:50.720
is the narrative of trauma getting

0:24:49.840,0:24:54.559
stored

0:24:50.720,0:24:57.440
in our um in our body because our

0:24:54.559,0:24:59.360
our neural system is all throughout our

0:24:57.440,0:25:01.600
entire body not just in our head right

0:24:59.360,0:25:02.000
like all those nerve endings and cells

0:25:01.600,0:25:03.520
and

0:25:02.000,0:25:06.240
so on and so forth go throughout our

0:25:03.520,0:25:09.200
entire body and there's a memory

0:25:06.240,0:25:10.799
of a trauma like a lot of times if we

0:25:09.200,0:25:12.840
experience a certain kind of trauma it

0:25:10.799,0:25:15.919
can get stored in a certain part of our

0:25:12.840,0:25:17.919
body and then triggered through that

0:25:15.919,0:25:19.360
well he ends up going through in the

0:25:17.919,0:25:21.440
book describing

0:25:19.360,0:25:23.039
from his perspective and his long

0:25:21.440,0:25:26.480
experience in this

0:25:23.039,0:25:29.919
that trauma is essentially

0:25:26.480,0:25:32.960
at the core of um he believes

0:25:29.919,0:25:35.039
the majority of human disease like

0:25:32.960,0:25:36.559
cancers and heart disease and liver

0:25:35.039,0:25:39.760
disease and internal

0:25:36.559,0:25:43.039
organ failures and essentially related

0:25:39.760,0:25:45.039
to unprocessed trauma and then

0:25:43.039,0:25:47.360
he talks about the relationship of

0:25:45.039,0:25:50.159
things like child abuse and homelessness

0:25:47.360,0:25:51.200
and mental illness and like you think

0:25:50.159,0:25:54.240
about the economic

0:25:51.200,0:25:55.360
toll of all those things on our

0:25:54.240,0:25:58.080
economies

0:25:55.360,0:25:59.919
if we begin to work on healing those

0:25:58.080,0:26:02.000
things helping young people process

0:25:59.919,0:26:04.640
those things earlier

0:26:02.000,0:26:05.840
you know the economic outcome could be

0:26:04.640,0:26:07.440
really powerful

0:26:05.840,0:26:08.960
and we could spend more of that money on

0:26:07.440,0:26:11.440
other things

0:26:08.960,0:26:13.360
so i don't know yeah uh i think if

0:26:11.440,0:26:15.679
there's a possibility then that's

0:26:13.360,0:26:16.720
that's where my money's going yeah yeah

0:26:15.679,0:26:18.720
it's um

0:26:16.720,0:26:20.880
i sometimes think about just little

0:26:18.720,0:26:23.279
things like when i see my kids

0:26:20.880,0:26:24.000
um getting anxious or something and i go

0:26:23.279,0:26:27.360
like uh oh

0:26:24.000,0:26:27.760
i think i see my anxiety bleeding into

0:26:27.360,0:26:30.880
them

0:26:27.760,0:26:32.720
and i go damn it you know and i wish and

0:26:30.880,0:26:34.320
then sometimes you want to try to just

0:26:32.720,0:26:35.279
stop it you know like hey stop biting

0:26:34.320,0:26:37.520
your nails

0:26:35.279,0:26:39.440
and then you realize like you can't you

0:26:37.520,0:26:42.080
can't really just stop it like that

0:26:39.440,0:26:43.360
you know you have to figure out what the

0:26:42.080,0:26:46.320
deeper thing is

0:26:43.360,0:26:47.200
um and and try to give your kids the

0:26:46.320,0:26:50.240
tools to

0:26:47.200,0:26:53.120
to work through it yeah um yeah

0:26:50.240,0:26:54.559
when it comes to i know with oh yeah

0:26:53.120,0:26:56.559
well with my kids

0:26:54.559,0:26:58.320
the biggest thing that i've tried to do

0:26:56.559,0:27:00.400
and i don't know that this is right but

0:26:58.320,0:27:03.360
it's what i try and do is

0:27:00.400,0:27:06.080
i i know because of my ptsd because of

0:27:03.360,0:27:07.600
the things that i went through as a kid

0:27:06.080,0:27:09.279
knowing my parents were doing the best

0:27:07.600,0:27:12.400
they could um

0:27:09.279,0:27:13.360
but they had some really egregious

0:27:12.400,0:27:17.520
failures it was

0:27:13.360,0:27:19.760
really rough when i was a kid and um

0:27:17.520,0:27:21.520
because of that i have some

0:27:19.760,0:27:24.880
characteristics that are tough

0:27:21.520,0:27:28.000
i can get angry fast if if the

0:27:24.880,0:27:28.960
the volume in the house is loud and i

0:27:28.000,0:27:31.919
can like my

0:27:28.960,0:27:33.120
my ptsd kicks in and i'm like you know

0:27:31.919,0:27:35.360
my top is blown

0:27:33.120,0:27:36.960
now that's gotten a lot better and i've

0:27:35.360,0:27:37.360
learned to be able to say things like

0:27:36.960,0:27:39.919
hey

0:27:37.360,0:27:42.720
can can you all take the volume outside

0:27:39.919,0:27:45.760
or hey i'm going for a walk or whatever

0:27:42.720,0:27:47.039
but i know that i'm kind of a bear and

0:27:45.760,0:27:48.880
so with my kids

0:27:47.039,0:27:51.520
a couple of things i've let them know

0:27:48.880,0:27:54.559
hey papa's a bear

0:27:51.520,0:27:57.520
and so i just yelled at you and

0:27:54.559,0:27:58.960
that that was about me right that was

0:27:57.520,0:28:02.480
not about you

0:27:58.960,0:28:06.000
um are you all still valuable yes

0:28:02.480,0:28:08.320
are you all still fantastic kids yes

0:28:06.000,0:28:10.000
you know um is this something papa's

0:28:08.320,0:28:13.039
going to keep working on yes

0:28:10.000,0:28:13.840
is it likely to change massively no you

0:28:13.039,0:28:16.000
know like

0:28:13.840,0:28:17.840
we just kind of go through the list and

0:28:16.000,0:28:19.120
then i just try and spend a lot of time

0:28:17.840,0:28:22.159
with my kids

0:28:19.120,0:28:24.799
even if it's not a

0:28:22.159,0:28:25.360
fantastic perfect time whatever you know

0:28:24.799,0:28:26.960
just

0:28:25.360,0:28:27.919
if i can spend a lot of time with them i

0:28:26.960,0:28:29.039
know they're gonna have to go to

0:28:27.919,0:28:32.000
counseling

0:28:29.039,0:28:33.200
you know but i'm just trying to spend as

0:28:32.000,0:28:36.159
much quality

0:28:33.200,0:28:37.039
time with them or sorry i mean i say

0:28:36.159,0:28:39.279
quality but

0:28:37.039,0:28:40.159
even quantity i've heard somebody once

0:28:39.279,0:28:43.440
say

0:28:40.159,0:28:45.279
quantity trumps quality because

0:28:43.440,0:28:46.480
quality is going to happen in there at

0:28:45.279,0:28:49.520
some point

0:28:46.480,0:28:52.960
but but actually you know

0:28:49.520,0:28:56.159
trying to have that quantity time

0:28:52.960,0:28:56.640
is is the is the bigger ask it's harder

0:28:56.159,0:28:58.159
but it

0:28:56.640,0:28:59.760
i think over the long haul it's get

0:28:58.159,0:29:00.559
better yeah so yeah i think you're doing

0:28:59.760,0:29:04.000
the right thing man

0:29:00.559,0:29:04.640
trying doing what i can um when it comes

0:29:04.000,0:29:08.320
to

0:29:04.640,0:29:10.640
like twitter and stuff it's funny i i

0:29:08.320,0:29:12.000
find myself going through phases where

0:29:10.640,0:29:15.520
like just about a month

0:29:12.000,0:29:18.159
ago it was perfect i had my my feed was

0:29:15.520,0:29:20.000
dialed in every time i sat down i had

0:29:18.159,0:29:21.120
kind of a routine for it

0:29:20.000,0:29:23.120
and it would be great it would be

0:29:21.120,0:29:24.159
engaging i'd feel like i was learning

0:29:23.120,0:29:26.480
stuff and da

0:29:24.159,0:29:28.080
da da da and then like i don't know what

0:29:26.480,0:29:30.159
happened but a week or so later it's

0:29:28.080,0:29:32.960
like every time i'm in there

0:29:30.159,0:29:34.159
it's making me feel i don't know like

0:29:32.960,0:29:37.279
stressed or

0:29:34.159,0:29:37.840
comparison or whatever and it's like i'm

0:29:37.279,0:29:41.120
getting

0:29:37.840,0:29:41.919
like almost zero joy out of it kind of a

0:29:41.120,0:29:44.320
thing

0:29:41.919,0:29:44.960
and right it kind of um i don't know

0:29:44.320,0:29:46.559
what that is

0:29:44.960,0:29:48.799
you know i don't know if it's a phase or

0:29:46.559,0:29:51.600
what it is but um

0:29:48.799,0:29:52.399
i think it's just it kind of it waxes

0:29:51.600,0:29:55.840
and wanes

0:29:52.399,0:29:58.159
you know yeah i can relate to that

0:29:55.840,0:29:59.600
what um what are you doing about it

0:29:58.159,0:30:01.679
what's your

0:29:59.600,0:30:03.840
kind of uh hypothesis about where to go

0:30:01.679,0:30:05.520
from here i think um

0:30:03.840,0:30:07.440
sometimes i think it's a state of mind

0:30:05.520,0:30:10.000
thing like um

0:30:07.440,0:30:11.039
you know blocking out certain periods of

0:30:10.000,0:30:14.320
time of the day

0:30:11.039,0:30:17.120
where i get in there and and i'm and i'm

0:30:14.320,0:30:18.720
looking to absorb information and learn

0:30:17.120,0:30:19.760
things and connect with interesting

0:30:18.720,0:30:22.320
people

0:30:19.760,0:30:23.679
um i think when it goes when it's too

0:30:22.320,0:30:25.279
much of the day

0:30:23.679,0:30:27.200
then you get into this just mindless

0:30:25.279,0:30:30.720
scrolling um

0:30:27.200,0:30:33.360
so i think that's part of it and then um

0:30:30.720,0:30:34.480
you know tuning the feed so that it's

0:30:33.360,0:30:36.799
it's

0:30:34.480,0:30:37.840
things that you i find myself engaging

0:30:36.799,0:30:40.880
with

0:30:37.840,0:30:41.679
um i i i feel like i'm feeling a lot of

0:30:40.880,0:30:44.960
like

0:30:41.679,0:30:47.600
jealousy lately which is i don't even

0:30:44.960,0:30:50.080
like saying it said it's so stupid

0:30:47.600,0:30:51.120
but i really understand that yeah like i

0:30:50.080,0:30:53.520
see somebody

0:30:51.120,0:30:55.360
posting their numbers and something so

0:30:53.520,0:30:57.440
successful and i'm like

0:30:55.360,0:30:59.279
you know instead of being inspired by

0:30:57.440,0:31:01.519
that i find myself

0:30:59.279,0:31:02.640
you know feeling jealous or whatever and

0:31:01.519,0:31:05.279
um

0:31:02.640,0:31:07.039
so i've been um you know and then i've

0:31:05.279,0:31:09.120
been spending a lot of time

0:31:07.039,0:31:10.240
just doing physical activity the gym

0:31:09.120,0:31:12.559
hiking

0:31:10.240,0:31:14.559
uh stuff like that which has been good

0:31:12.559,0:31:17.760
um unplugging more

0:31:14.559,0:31:20.159
and i'll listen to audio a lot you know

0:31:17.760,0:31:22.880
when i'm doing that and that'll be good

0:31:20.159,0:31:23.679
um but i think it's everybody kind of

0:31:22.880,0:31:25.679
has to

0:31:23.679,0:31:28.080
find that healthy relationship with

0:31:25.679,0:31:32.240
social media and it's like

0:31:28.080,0:31:35.840
it's a it's a tricky thing to find um

0:31:32.240,0:31:38.880
really good emails so this is uh

0:31:35.840,0:31:41.919
this is the uh sort of curation of

0:31:38.880,0:31:42.960
emails that you've created um which is

0:31:41.919,0:31:46.000
really neat how did you

0:31:42.960,0:31:48.080
get the idea for that originally

0:31:46.000,0:31:49.440
yeah it's it's a it's an interesting

0:31:48.080,0:31:52.640
story you know

0:31:49.440,0:31:55.360
uh probably about

0:31:52.640,0:31:57.600
nine or ten years ago now i started a

0:31:55.360,0:32:01.039
site called pattern tap

0:31:57.600,0:32:04.399
and uh i was screenshotting

0:32:01.039,0:32:07.440
uh headers and navigation and lists and

0:32:04.399,0:32:09.919
um articles and

0:32:07.440,0:32:10.640
the way that people were more or less

0:32:09.919,0:32:13.440
laying out

0:32:10.640,0:32:14.640
components we didn't call them that at

0:32:13.440,0:32:17.120
the time

0:32:14.640,0:32:17.840
but i was interested in how people were

0:32:17.120,0:32:20.640
solving

0:32:17.840,0:32:21.679
common problems you know with design and

0:32:20.640,0:32:25.039
it was like kind of a

0:32:21.679,0:32:28.480
blend of ux and and visual design

0:32:25.039,0:32:31.519
and so i you know uh

0:32:28.480,0:32:35.039
pulled that together i uh

0:32:31.519,0:32:37.600
spent a bunch of money on it um and

0:32:35.039,0:32:39.200
this was before sas was like really you

0:32:37.600,0:32:40.640
know running and we had a lot of good

0:32:39.200,0:32:43.760
patterns for that

0:32:40.640,0:32:45.360
and uh but i had you know i had a lot of

0:32:43.760,0:32:48.799
activity on it and i

0:32:45.360,0:32:50.799
um i was able to sell

0:32:48.799,0:32:52.000
about a thousand dollars a month in

0:32:50.799,0:32:55.279
advertising for that

0:32:52.000,0:32:55.679
at the time and i thought man this is

0:32:55.279,0:32:58.960
great

0:32:55.679,0:32:59.519
okay um and i eventually was able to

0:32:58.960,0:33:03.039
sell it

0:32:59.519,0:33:05.279
for about 25 000 and i was like

0:33:03.039,0:33:07.039
okay that sucks you know like i wish it

0:33:05.279,0:33:09.440
could have been a lot more and

0:33:07.039,0:33:10.399
i spent so much time and energy and so

0:33:09.440,0:33:13.919
on and so forth

0:33:10.399,0:33:17.200
and so you know it was a lesson learned

0:33:13.919,0:33:20.240
well fast forward i go and i join

0:33:17.200,0:33:23.360
three different vc backed startups

0:33:20.240,0:33:25.519
and consistently i'm championing

0:33:23.360,0:33:26.640
email we're we're trying to connect with

0:33:25.519,0:33:29.679
our customers

0:33:26.640,0:33:31.440
why is email getting outsourced to a

0:33:29.679,0:33:32.720
marketing company that doesn't know

0:33:31.440,0:33:35.200
anything about our product

0:33:32.720,0:33:36.240
that doesn't make any sense so bringing

0:33:35.200,0:33:37.600
that in-house

0:33:36.240,0:33:39.840
trying to take care of it trying to

0:33:37.600,0:33:41.679
think through it and always googling

0:33:39.840,0:33:43.200
you know best welcome email best

0:33:41.679,0:33:45.120
onboarding email best

0:33:43.200,0:33:46.480
whatever email and i didn't know all the

0:33:45.120,0:33:48.480
terminology

0:33:46.480,0:33:50.159
but it was hard to find you know and you

0:33:48.480,0:33:51.600
could find stuff on pinterest and so on

0:33:50.159,0:33:53.279
and so forth but it was scattered

0:33:51.600,0:33:55.440
all over the place and i thought wait a

0:33:53.279,0:33:57.039
second i've already done this i know how

0:33:55.440,0:34:00.399
to create a curated

0:33:57.039,0:34:03.360
space so i did it in a weekend i

0:34:00.399,0:34:04.320
um i got about 20 different emails that

0:34:03.360,0:34:07.840
i thought were like

0:34:04.320,0:34:10.480
best in class um you know grabbed us

0:34:07.840,0:34:11.839
a url that i thought was pretty great

0:34:10.480,0:34:14.560
and i wrote

0:34:11.839,0:34:16.079
my buddy mark d christina at mailchimp

0:34:14.560,0:34:18.079
and i said hey

0:34:16.079,0:34:21.119
they got this cool thing you guys want

0:34:18.079,0:34:24.079
to sponsor this and he wrote back

0:34:21.119,0:34:24.639
um with a gift from jerry maguire and it

0:34:24.079,0:34:27.520
just said

0:34:24.639,0:34:28.800
you had me at hello nice i thought all

0:34:27.520,0:34:32.079
right that's classic

0:34:28.800,0:34:34.720
yeah so you know

0:34:32.079,0:34:36.320
fast forward i was able to create that

0:34:34.720,0:34:39.200
you know in a weekend

0:34:36.320,0:34:40.480
um versus previously there wasn't

0:34:39.200,0:34:42.879
software to do that

0:34:40.480,0:34:43.679
right so you know wordpress and themes

0:34:42.879,0:34:47.280
made that

0:34:43.679,0:34:49.760
you know easy to do so it's been

0:34:47.280,0:34:51.200
uh almost six years now that we've been

0:34:49.760,0:34:53.599
doing really good emails and i

0:34:51.200,0:34:55.919
i added people along the way we started

0:34:53.599,0:34:59.359
our own email newsletter we now have

0:34:55.919,0:35:02.720
close to 5 000 um

0:34:59.359,0:35:04.240
you know curated best-in-class emails

0:35:02.720,0:35:05.119
that we found from all kinds of

0:35:04.240,0:35:08.240
different

0:35:05.119,0:35:10.960
uh companies and organizations

0:35:08.240,0:35:13.280
and you can see the code on them and you

0:35:10.960,0:35:16.880
can collect them and so on and so forth

0:35:13.280,0:35:19.920
and and that's been great um it's still

0:35:16.880,0:35:22.480
a side thing for everybody so

0:35:19.920,0:35:23.200
we're all we all have full-time jobs and

0:35:22.480,0:35:26.640
we all

0:35:23.200,0:35:31.599
currently take 500 a month from

0:35:26.640,0:35:33.520
uh from it as a way of making it like

0:35:31.599,0:35:35.200
this doesn't help at all but it also

0:35:33.520,0:35:36.960
doesn't hurt you know so maybe i'll

0:35:35.200,0:35:40.400
spend that money on

0:35:36.960,0:35:42.400
you know my hobby or whatever um but

0:35:40.400,0:35:44.560
we're making more than that but we keep

0:35:42.400,0:35:48.240
pouring it back into the product

0:35:44.560,0:35:50.720
and most recently we've we've really

0:35:48.240,0:35:52.240
pushed hard hard hard and behind the

0:35:50.720,0:35:55.599
scenes you don't see it but

0:35:52.240,0:35:59.040
we're working on our first sas offering

0:35:55.599,0:36:01.359
our hypothesis is that

0:35:59.040,0:36:02.480
the the biggest friction in the email

0:36:01.359,0:36:04.880
world

0:36:02.480,0:36:05.920
uh in terms of being able to create new

0:36:04.880,0:36:08.160
emails

0:36:05.920,0:36:09.839
uh maybe not the biggest friction a big

0:36:08.160,0:36:13.599
friction is

0:36:09.839,0:36:16.960
the inability to actually work with

0:36:13.599,0:36:18.079
the eml format something gets sent out

0:36:16.960,0:36:20.160
into your email

0:36:18.079,0:36:21.599
and the only way to really extract it

0:36:20.160,0:36:24.960
out of there

0:36:21.599,0:36:27.839
currently is to take a screenshot of it

0:36:24.960,0:36:28.480
uh and then talk about it you know and

0:36:27.839,0:36:30.880
if that's

0:36:28.480,0:36:31.599
somebody else's email you can do that

0:36:30.880,0:36:34.079
but again

0:36:31.599,0:36:34.800
super taxing like really laborious to do

0:36:34.079,0:36:37.280
that

0:36:34.800,0:36:38.400
or your own email like your company's

0:36:37.280,0:36:41.440
email

0:36:38.400,0:36:42.800
um and so like we we did uh my my design

0:36:41.440,0:36:46.720
agency we did a

0:36:42.800,0:36:49.200
um uh email design system for

0:36:46.720,0:36:50.079
a big company called truecar uh not long

0:36:49.200,0:36:53.040
ago

0:36:50.079,0:36:54.480
and you know they sent us a big brief

0:36:53.040,0:36:56.480
about all the emails they wanted

0:36:54.480,0:36:59.839
redesigned well how did they do that

0:36:56.480,0:37:02.880
screenshots from their inbox like

0:36:59.839,0:37:05.680
this is 2020. how is that that what

0:37:02.880,0:37:06.240
that's so silly how is that happening so

0:37:05.680,0:37:08.560
we've

0:37:06.240,0:37:10.240
because of our own processes internally

0:37:08.560,0:37:12.720
we've developed tech of just

0:37:10.240,0:37:14.160
grabbing an email and then spitting it

0:37:12.720,0:37:17.280
out and

0:37:14.160,0:37:19.359
adding data to it and the code

0:37:17.280,0:37:20.960
that you can see and all that stuff so

0:37:19.359,0:37:23.520
it just made sense for us to

0:37:20.960,0:37:24.079
start utilizing that tech and so what

0:37:23.520,0:37:25.920
we're

0:37:24.079,0:37:27.359
you're seeing more companies do some of

0:37:25.920,0:37:29.760
what we're doing is

0:37:27.359,0:37:31.359
you know the ability to comment on a

0:37:29.760,0:37:32.960
live web page

0:37:31.359,0:37:34.880
you know you're seeing companies like

0:37:32.960,0:37:36.480
pastel come up with that well we're

0:37:34.880,0:37:38.640
doing that for email

0:37:36.480,0:37:41.040
so around the corner is the ability to

0:37:38.640,0:37:43.440
grab an email out of your inbox

0:37:41.040,0:37:45.599
and you and your team or you and your

0:37:43.440,0:37:46.160
client or whatever are able to comment

0:37:45.599,0:37:48.720
on

0:37:46.160,0:37:49.760
not just yeah i like this but i like

0:37:48.720,0:37:52.160
this header

0:37:49.760,0:37:53.040
i like what they've done with icons here

0:37:52.160,0:37:55.599
or

0:37:53.040,0:37:57.200
hey this is the wrong copy that we put

0:37:55.599,0:38:00.079
in here this should have been updated

0:37:57.200,0:38:01.200
please fix this you know those kinds of

0:38:00.079,0:38:02.880
things

0:38:01.200,0:38:05.119
where apparently that's not possible

0:38:02.880,0:38:07.200
it's hidden away in an inbox

0:38:05.119,0:38:08.240
and the only thing somebody can do is to

0:38:07.200,0:38:10.320
say hey

0:38:08.240,0:38:11.760
second paragraph in that other section

0:38:10.320,0:38:15.440
near the purple thing

0:38:11.760,0:38:18.240
make this change not helpful

0:38:15.440,0:38:19.839
um and you know envision and other tools

0:38:18.240,0:38:23.040
like that have helped us

0:38:19.839,0:38:23.839
get the framework of thinking and now of

0:38:23.040,0:38:27.040
course uh

0:38:23.839,0:38:28.560
figma has explored all that and so

0:38:27.040,0:38:30.240
um that's where we're heading and we

0:38:28.560,0:38:32.400
think that's a good uh

0:38:30.240,0:38:34.160
pass and you know similar to you with

0:38:32.400,0:38:35.920
what you're saying about twitter

0:38:34.160,0:38:38.000
you know i look at other people who have

0:38:35.920,0:38:38.560
started sas companies and i think we

0:38:38.000,0:38:41.760
solved

0:38:38.560,0:38:44.400
the problem backwards we have a huge

0:38:41.760,0:38:45.599
audience and people know our name like

0:38:44.400,0:38:47.200
it's a family name

0:38:45.599,0:38:48.960
and we don't have anything to sell to

0:38:47.200,0:38:50.880
them you know it's like

0:38:48.960,0:38:52.079
most people come up with something to

0:38:50.880,0:38:52.480
sell and then they've got to do all

0:38:52.079,0:38:55.839
their

0:38:52.480,0:38:58.079
marketing to get people in the door so

0:38:55.839,0:39:00.480
you know we're we're i think we're

0:38:58.079,0:39:02.480
probably three months away i bet we'll

0:39:00.480,0:39:05.200
be able to launch something in february

0:39:02.480,0:39:05.760
um but it's hard you know we've we've

0:39:05.200,0:39:09.119
got

0:39:05.760,0:39:12.000
um five people now on the core team

0:39:09.119,0:39:12.800
but again we're all you know part time

0:39:12.000,0:39:14.560
so

0:39:12.800,0:39:16.640
doing that and figuring that out has

0:39:14.560,0:39:19.680
been really challenging but

0:39:16.640,0:39:22.960
uh you know in an ideal world i

0:39:19.680,0:39:23.359
uh i will have a nice recurring monthly

0:39:22.960,0:39:26.160
check

0:39:23.359,0:39:27.760
or a big sale oriented check and then

0:39:26.160,0:39:28.800
you know in five years or something like

0:39:27.760,0:39:30.960
that

0:39:28.800,0:39:32.160
uh that'd be a good retirement plan i

0:39:30.960,0:39:34.240
don't know we'll see

0:39:32.160,0:39:35.599
that's really cool i was kind of curious

0:39:34.240,0:39:38.160
uh what the

0:39:35.599,0:39:39.280
monetization model was for the site and

0:39:38.160,0:39:41.680
um

0:39:39.280,0:39:43.520
that's uh i love that idea i mean i'm

0:39:41.680,0:39:44.880
not too familiar with the space and all

0:39:43.520,0:39:45.760
the different tools out there but i

0:39:44.880,0:39:47.119
think

0:39:45.760,0:39:49.839
you're right that it's it's all

0:39:47.119,0:39:52.160
screenshots and uh right that makes

0:39:49.839,0:39:54.480
that makes all the sense in the world to

0:39:52.160,0:39:56.720
give people the ability to

0:39:54.480,0:39:57.839
work more directly with the underlying

0:39:56.720,0:40:00.960
format of the

0:39:57.839,0:40:02.880
of the emails um i think so yeah i hope

0:40:00.960,0:40:06.880
so yeah

0:40:02.880,0:40:10.079
so what so it's cyber monday um

0:40:06.880,0:40:12.480
what are um when it comes to maybe

0:40:10.079,0:40:15.920
e-commerce specific emails

0:40:12.480,0:40:17.839
um what are some things that either

0:40:15.920,0:40:20.000
maybe some interesting emails that you

0:40:17.839,0:40:22.160
saw that are top of mind

0:40:20.000,0:40:23.119
um things that ecommerce stores can

0:40:22.160,0:40:26.079
maybe do

0:40:23.119,0:40:26.560
a little differently a little better or

0:40:26.079,0:40:30.480
maybe

0:40:26.560,0:40:33.440
really horrendous emails that you saw

0:40:30.480,0:40:34.240
any of the above yeah that's good

0:40:33.440,0:40:38.160
question

0:40:34.240,0:40:40.720
so one of the things that i think

0:40:38.160,0:40:41.760
that i champion a lot in the talks that

0:40:40.720,0:40:43.599
i give

0:40:41.760,0:40:45.359
is to be in relationship with your

0:40:43.599,0:40:48.880
customers

0:40:45.359,0:40:52.160
that email is relationship design

0:40:48.880,0:40:54.240
and so your relationship

0:40:52.160,0:40:56.640
just as as we talk about a significant

0:40:54.240,0:41:00.480
other or our kids or whatever

0:40:56.640,0:41:02.960
if we hammer our relationships

0:41:00.480,0:41:03.599
uh with the kind of information with the

0:41:02.960,0:41:07.920
kind of

0:41:03.599,0:41:10.880
um non-personal type of touch

0:41:07.920,0:41:12.800
that we often see in emails we will lose

0:41:10.880,0:41:14.480
those relationships

0:41:12.800,0:41:16.160
and there's no wonder we have such a

0:41:14.480,0:41:19.040
high unsubscribe rate

0:41:16.160,0:41:20.880
you know throughout e-commerce um

0:41:19.040,0:41:22.800
because people aren't relating to people

0:41:20.880,0:41:26.480
in any kind of personal way

0:41:22.800,0:41:29.599
um and personal is not saying you know

0:41:26.480,0:41:31.839
hey matthew you know it's here's here's

0:41:29.599,0:41:33.440
your generic information like putting

0:41:31.839,0:41:35.440
you know just a name tag that's not

0:41:33.440,0:41:38.960
personalization personalization

0:41:35.440,0:41:42.160
is i've expressed some interest in

0:41:38.960,0:41:44.079
um let's say

0:41:42.160,0:41:45.520
i'm trying to think of a topic like

0:41:44.079,0:41:48.800
camera like uh

0:41:45.520,0:41:52.160
cameras uh camera gear

0:41:48.800,0:41:54.160
um but i am i'm interested in canon

0:41:52.160,0:41:55.920
that's that's my family of products

0:41:54.160,0:41:59.040
that's what i'm after

0:41:55.920,0:41:59.440
you know whereas a b h if all they sent

0:41:59.040,0:42:02.079
me

0:41:59.440,0:42:03.440
and in fact b h is not they don't do

0:42:02.079,0:42:06.640
this very well

0:42:03.440,0:42:09.520
um they could

0:42:06.640,0:42:11.599
instead of sending me deals for nikon

0:42:09.520,0:42:14.160
and sony and everything else

0:42:11.599,0:42:14.960
they could really start to focus in on

0:42:14.160,0:42:17.520
canon

0:42:14.960,0:42:18.480
and then also they have an opportunity

0:42:17.520,0:42:21.920
to try and

0:42:18.480,0:42:24.319
show canon we have this many users who

0:42:21.920,0:42:27.119
are really focused on canon

0:42:24.319,0:42:28.319
can we offer them something unique and

0:42:27.119,0:42:32.640
specific

0:42:28.319,0:42:35.520
even if that kind of specificity is um

0:42:32.640,0:42:36.640
you know an hour-long webinar with a

0:42:35.520,0:42:39.359
canon

0:42:36.640,0:42:41.119
uh photographer who's really well known

0:42:39.359,0:42:42.079
right like that'd be a free thing but it

0:42:41.119,0:42:44.480
would like really

0:42:42.079,0:42:46.240
be good for the brand of cannon right so

0:42:44.480,0:42:48.160
there's so much more that you can do

0:42:46.240,0:42:50.960
when you start to get more personal

0:42:48.160,0:42:52.480
and like for my girlfriend i don't ask

0:42:50.960,0:42:55.200
my girlfriend

0:42:52.480,0:42:55.680
um like do you want to go to waffle

0:42:55.200,0:42:58.000
house

0:42:55.680,0:42:59.359
you know why because we're we're foodies

0:42:58.000,0:43:00.640
and i know that about her and she wants

0:42:59.359,0:43:04.240
to eat somewhere

0:43:00.640,0:43:07.359
you know delicious uh i don't um

0:43:04.240,0:43:07.760
i don't ask her why she's wearing you

0:43:07.359,0:43:10.640
know

0:43:07.760,0:43:11.599
25 layers of clothing at night because i

0:43:10.640,0:43:13.839
know that she's

0:43:11.599,0:43:14.640
fucking cold like all the time you know

0:43:13.839,0:43:16.560
what i mean

0:43:14.640,0:43:18.319
and so it's like okay i know that

0:43:16.560,0:43:20.319
instead of having to ask well in your

0:43:18.319,0:43:22.000
emails being able to be more

0:43:20.319,0:43:24.400
personal in your messaging because

0:43:22.000,0:43:25.599
you've segmented your user group into

0:43:24.400,0:43:26.160
places where you can actually

0:43:25.599,0:43:28.720
communicate

0:43:26.160,0:43:30.240
with them and the simplest versions of

0:43:28.720,0:43:32.240
that are not hard

0:43:30.240,0:43:34.079
and there are your esp should be able to

0:43:32.240,0:43:37.440
show you how to do that

0:43:34.079,0:43:40.560
um so some examples that i saw

0:43:37.440,0:43:43.040
you know that i think are doing well um

0:43:40.560,0:43:44.880
i'm always a big fan of tattly uh which

0:43:43.040,0:43:47.280
is swiss misses product of

0:43:44.880,0:43:47.920
you know temporary tattoos none of mine

0:43:47.280,0:43:49.680
are but

0:43:47.920,0:43:51.920
you know it's a fun kind of thing for

0:43:49.680,0:43:54.880
her to to bring to the space

0:43:51.920,0:43:56.240
and they they theme everything so the

0:43:54.880,0:43:58.319
emails are very

0:43:56.240,0:43:59.920
uh flexible the design system is very

0:43:58.319,0:44:02.160
flexible so that they can

0:43:59.920,0:44:03.599
make colors and change the photography

0:44:02.160,0:44:04.480
and do some stuff there that's really

0:44:03.599,0:44:07.760
nice

0:44:04.480,0:44:10.640
on a personalization side um

0:44:07.760,0:44:11.839
i honestly think that uh amazon has

0:44:10.640,0:44:15.040
gotten a little bit better

0:44:11.839,0:44:17.200
about some of this and following up with

0:44:15.040,0:44:18.400
you know details about my experience and

0:44:17.200,0:44:21.040
things like that

0:44:18.400,0:44:22.400
um trying to think of the brands that

0:44:21.040,0:44:25.359
are sticking out for me

0:44:22.400,0:44:26.640
i've noticed everlane is a good one

0:44:25.359,0:44:29.040
where

0:44:26.640,0:44:30.160
their emails are almost entirely images

0:44:29.040,0:44:32.480
and that's

0:44:30.160,0:44:34.480
bad i'm not a fan we need to move the

0:44:32.480,0:44:38.480
web forward not backward

0:44:34.480,0:44:42.400
but they clearly track what i'm

0:44:38.480,0:44:44.640
into not just not just abandoned cart

0:44:42.400,0:44:46.319
type of emails but they're noticing the

0:44:44.640,0:44:49.440
colors that i'm into

0:44:46.319,0:44:50.480
and the and the style treatments and the

0:44:49.440,0:44:52.000
fact that i'm

0:44:50.480,0:44:53.440
interested in men's clothing and i

0:44:52.000,0:44:54.480
haven't been shopping for women's

0:44:53.440,0:44:58.000
clothing

0:44:54.480,0:44:59.920
um that's pretty interesting um another

0:44:58.000,0:45:03.119
group and what is the name of their

0:44:59.920,0:45:05.839
thread thread.com i think it is

0:45:03.119,0:45:06.319
they do some really interesting stuff

0:45:05.839,0:45:08.560
where

0:45:06.319,0:45:09.599
the transactional emails you get from

0:45:08.560,0:45:12.240
thread

0:45:09.599,0:45:13.520
are really impressive and very much

0:45:12.240,0:45:16.800
based on

0:45:13.520,0:45:19.040
how i shop how i work um

0:45:16.800,0:45:21.680
so but you know one of the big things on

0:45:19.040,0:45:24.400
black friday cyber monday that i'm

0:45:21.680,0:45:24.720
you know particularly interested in is i

0:45:24.400,0:45:27.200
i

0:45:24.720,0:45:29.359
joked on um twitter about this but i

0:45:27.200,0:45:29.760
said oh look it's unsubscribe week oh

0:45:29.359,0:45:34.480
yeah

0:45:29.760,0:45:35.040
you know i probably unsubscribed to 25

0:45:34.480,0:45:37.359
different

0:45:35.040,0:45:38.800
companies who i had forgotten that i was

0:45:37.359,0:45:41.520
following you know right

0:45:38.800,0:45:41.839
um if they had sent me an email that was

0:45:41.520,0:45:44.160
not

0:45:41.839,0:45:46.319
a black friday or cyber monday email

0:45:44.160,0:45:50.240
like prior to

0:45:46.319,0:45:51.040
and said hey you originally signed up at

0:45:50.240,0:45:54.000
this state

0:45:51.040,0:45:54.960
for these reasons we'd love to have you

0:45:54.000,0:45:57.520
on board

0:45:54.960,0:45:58.480
are you interested in seeing our black

0:45:57.520,0:46:00.640
friday deals

0:45:58.480,0:46:02.160
or you want to opt out of our black

0:46:00.640,0:46:04.079
friday deals

0:46:02.160,0:46:06.400
and so in other words you might be able

0:46:04.079,0:46:08.400
to keep them as a subscriber

0:46:06.400,0:46:10.000
but just have them opt out of black

0:46:08.400,0:46:12.720
friday because people get

0:46:10.000,0:46:14.160
you know it's like if people are

0:46:12.720,0:46:16.160
constantly calling you you're going to

0:46:14.160,0:46:18.079
turn your phone off yeah

0:46:16.160,0:46:19.680
right and so it may not even be about

0:46:18.079,0:46:20.800
your brand people may just be like i'm

0:46:19.680,0:46:24.079
fucking tired of this

0:46:20.800,0:46:24.319
yeah unsubscribe yeah so i've i've heard

0:46:24.079,0:46:26.240
it

0:46:24.319,0:46:27.359
described that you should ahead of the

0:46:26.240,0:46:29.680
curve

0:46:27.359,0:46:30.880
ask people are you interested in deals

0:46:29.680,0:46:32.720
on black friday

0:46:30.880,0:46:34.480
and most people are going to say yes you

0:46:32.720,0:46:35.839
know a lot of people want to see those

0:46:34.480,0:46:38.079
sales but if not

0:46:35.839,0:46:39.040
give them options and that's that's

0:46:38.079,0:46:41.280
relationship

0:46:39.040,0:46:42.079
right that's asking people for what they

0:46:41.280,0:46:44.960
need yeah

0:46:42.079,0:46:47.119
that's a smart idea um i'm i'm one of

0:46:44.960,0:46:49.440
these guys like i i just i

0:46:47.119,0:46:51.280
the least amount of time possible i can

0:46:49.440,0:46:53.920
spend in my inbox the better

0:46:51.280,0:46:55.760
yeah you know so it's like if it's if

0:46:53.920,0:46:57.680
it's work related okay let me

0:46:55.760,0:46:59.200
handle it if not let me get it out of

0:46:57.680,0:47:02.319
the way um

0:46:59.200,0:47:04.319
yeah do you have um does your

0:47:02.319,0:47:06.560
does do promotional emails and things

0:47:04.319,0:47:08.560
like that go into a separate

0:47:06.560,0:47:10.800
tab for you that you deal with they just

0:47:08.560,0:47:13.200
go into your main inbox

0:47:10.800,0:47:13.920
yeah but i'm in a i'm in a unique boat

0:47:13.200,0:47:16.560
you know like i

0:47:13.920,0:47:19.200
save a lot of these right so if if they

0:47:16.560,0:47:22.800
come in and they're not well designed

0:47:19.200,0:47:23.520
unsubscribe i'm done um but i subscribe

0:47:22.800,0:47:25.599
to

0:47:23.520,0:47:26.800
so many fucking brands and things it's

0:47:25.599,0:47:31.200
crazy but

0:47:26.800,0:47:33.839
i you know i um

0:47:31.200,0:47:35.359
i'll get them in and i and i process

0:47:33.839,0:47:38.880
through them so

0:47:35.359,0:47:39.920
from my perspective a good promotional

0:47:38.880,0:47:43.520
email

0:47:39.920,0:47:44.559
um one needs to do the job somebody

0:47:43.520,0:47:47.920
hired it to do

0:47:44.559,0:47:50.720
right so you should know what that is

0:47:47.920,0:47:52.960
if the email for instance like if i'm

0:47:50.720,0:47:55.839
subscribed to a sub stack email

0:47:52.960,0:47:57.920
i'm there for like really fantastic

0:47:55.839,0:47:58.640
content i'm not there for some kind of

0:47:57.920,0:48:01.440
ad

0:47:58.640,0:48:02.240
yeah so on a sub stack email give me the

0:48:01.440,0:48:03.920
full thing

0:48:02.240,0:48:04.960
right like i i've subscribed because

0:48:03.920,0:48:06.480
you're going to give me some kind of

0:48:04.960,0:48:09.680
valuable information

0:48:06.480,0:48:13.119
but on most promotional emails i

0:48:09.680,0:48:16.160
it's to me it's like um

0:48:13.119,0:48:19.520
the a really condensed short

0:48:16.160,0:48:21.200
focused landing page in my inbox it has

0:48:19.520,0:48:24.400
a very specific

0:48:21.200,0:48:27.440
kind of 1.5 job to do meaning

0:48:24.400,0:48:29.520
one major thing and in that last half it

0:48:27.440,0:48:32.319
can show like three minor things

0:48:29.520,0:48:33.839
and then be out and if it's trying to do

0:48:32.319,0:48:36.319
so much more

0:48:33.839,0:48:38.079
it's probably taxing people you might

0:48:36.319,0:48:41.119
get away with that for a while

0:48:38.079,0:48:43.599
but ultimately people will not engage

0:48:41.119,0:48:44.160
and it becomes really useless and so

0:48:43.599,0:48:45.760
what you're

0:48:44.160,0:48:48.240
really wanting to do is make sure that

0:48:45.760,0:48:50.720
every email is doing a job

0:48:48.240,0:48:52.800
and and and you're wanting to check in

0:48:50.720,0:48:55.359
on that and see with your customers

0:48:52.800,0:48:56.480
is this the value you were looking for

0:48:55.359,0:48:58.400
and if it's not

0:48:56.480,0:49:00.319
find out if you can change it to make it

0:48:58.400,0:49:01.280
more valuable your open rates will

0:49:00.319,0:49:03.920
increase

0:49:01.280,0:49:04.640
sales will increase etc you know it's

0:49:03.920,0:49:06.480
not about

0:49:04.640,0:49:07.839
just hitting people with as many emails

0:49:06.480,0:49:10.800
as you can

0:49:07.839,0:49:11.680
it's about you know the right cadence

0:49:10.800,0:49:15.119
and then the

0:49:11.680,0:49:17.920
you know the proper um content

0:49:15.119,0:49:18.800
so i feel like one thing that might be

0:49:17.920,0:49:21.680
interesting

0:49:18.800,0:49:23.359
and maybe it already exists um and it

0:49:21.680,0:49:26.400
might be one of those things that's hard

0:49:23.359,0:49:27.839
to do efficiently is if i'm an

0:49:26.400,0:49:30.960
e-commerce brand

0:49:27.839,0:49:33.680
and i want to quickly allow

0:49:30.960,0:49:35.119
a team that specializes in email to kind

0:49:33.680,0:49:38.000
of audit

0:49:35.119,0:49:39.760
the emails i've sent from the

0:49:38.000,0:49:41.760
perspective of going in looking at the

0:49:39.760,0:49:43.760
numbers looking at the design

0:49:41.760,0:49:45.760
thinking through the experience thinking

0:49:43.760,0:49:47.520
through the pacing

0:49:45.760,0:49:48.880
are there certain like productized

0:49:47.520,0:49:51.520
services out there

0:49:48.880,0:49:53.119
that somebody can go just boom give you

0:49:51.520,0:49:55.520
access to my system

0:49:53.119,0:49:57.440
you can come in you can tweak things you

0:49:55.520,0:50:00.160
can maybe redesign the whole

0:49:57.440,0:50:01.680
set of emails all in one go like really

0:50:00.160,0:50:03.040
efficiently is there anything like that

0:50:01.680,0:50:05.599
out there

0:50:03.040,0:50:07.680
nope really good email there should be

0:50:05.599,0:50:09.440
there

0:50:07.680,0:50:10.960
yeah i mean i i've had a lot of

0:50:09.440,0:50:14.559
different product ideas

0:50:10.960,0:50:18.160
and in the email space in particular

0:50:14.559,0:50:21.920
and um there are no

0:50:18.160,0:50:25.119
modern email platforms that that i think

0:50:21.920,0:50:28.559
that are truly like

0:50:25.119,0:50:30.000
cutting edge sass meaning like best in

0:50:28.559,0:50:33.119
class about how sas

0:50:30.000,0:50:35.599
could operate and how email could move

0:50:33.119,0:50:36.960
and be um there are some good products

0:50:35.599,0:50:39.119
out there um

0:50:36.960,0:50:41.520
you know there are products like taxi

0:50:39.119,0:50:45.359
for email i'm a big fan of where

0:50:41.520,0:50:47.680
you can create a design system and

0:50:45.359,0:50:49.520
move the components around and then you

0:50:47.680,0:50:53.280
export it and put it into your

0:50:49.520,0:50:55.920
esp but there are no esps that do that

0:50:53.280,0:50:58.720
really really well

0:50:55.920,0:50:59.520
and you know for what you're talking

0:50:58.720,0:51:01.920
about there are

0:50:59.520,0:51:02.800
agencies that can help you you know move

0:51:01.920,0:51:06.160
through that

0:51:02.800,0:51:07.520
honestly there aren't enough it's really

0:51:06.160,0:51:09.760
difficult to find

0:51:07.520,0:51:11.599
an email agency that like there are some

0:51:09.760,0:51:14.240
good strategists

0:51:11.599,0:51:16.240
and freelancers out there and some

0:51:14.240,0:51:18.880
agencies that are good

0:51:16.240,0:51:19.440
there are some big agencies that work on

0:51:18.880,0:51:21.680
big

0:51:19.440,0:51:22.480
you know international and national

0:51:21.680,0:51:25.760
brands

0:51:22.480,0:51:28.079
that are quite good very few

0:51:25.760,0:51:28.800
uh of any of those people also have

0:51:28.079,0:51:31.440
design

0:51:28.800,0:51:32.079
capabilities that i think are are what i

0:51:31.440,0:51:35.119
would call

0:51:32.079,0:51:35.520
really good yeah um you know what you

0:51:35.119,0:51:37.839
and i

0:51:35.520,0:51:39.599
and product world would think oh yeah

0:51:37.839,0:51:39.920
like that's good product design like to

0:51:39.599,0:51:43.359
me

0:51:39.920,0:51:46.559
email is product even the marketing side

0:51:43.359,0:51:48.240
it's uh it has marketing content

0:51:46.559,0:51:50.960
marketing language

0:51:48.240,0:51:52.319
but it should match the brand um and i

0:51:50.960,0:51:55.520
think of e-commerce as

0:51:52.319,0:51:58.079
product not as uh something else so

0:51:55.520,0:51:59.920
you know it's an interesting space uh

0:51:58.079,0:52:02.480
there's a lot that can be improved

0:51:59.920,0:52:03.680
i also have thought somebody could make

0:52:02.480,0:52:06.720
a lot of money

0:52:03.680,0:52:07.760
coming up with a template series that

0:52:06.720,0:52:11.680
was

0:52:07.760,0:52:13.440
20 uh emails with 40 components that

0:52:11.680,0:52:16.000
could be interchanged

0:52:13.440,0:52:17.520
and the content for an e-commerce like

0:52:16.000,0:52:21.680
for your typical

0:52:17.520,0:52:24.800
you know um 1 million to 5 million

0:52:21.680,0:52:26.880
e-commerce shop right

0:52:24.800,0:52:29.119
what is the type of content that should

0:52:26.880,0:52:31.440
be in here just change your brand name

0:52:29.119,0:52:33.280
change the language a little bit but

0:52:31.440,0:52:33.760
essentially it's already written and

0:52:33.280,0:52:36.480
like

0:52:33.760,0:52:38.000
flushed out for you that would kill it

0:52:36.480,0:52:39.920
yeah i think somebody would do really

0:52:38.000,0:52:42.319
well at that you know like

0:52:39.920,0:52:44.160
if i had a little more time i would do

0:52:42.319,0:52:46.640
some stuff in that category

0:52:44.160,0:52:47.680
you know yeah but but i think the idea

0:52:46.640,0:52:51.280
that you have

0:52:47.680,0:52:52.960
is i think i think that

0:52:51.280,0:52:55.440
is perfect like i think that makes the

0:52:52.960,0:52:57.440
most sense it it it feels like it sits

0:52:55.440,0:53:00.240
really well within the existing kind of

0:52:57.440,0:53:01.599
framework and audience you have and it's

0:53:00.240,0:53:02.880
it's more unique

0:53:01.599,0:53:05.040
than just hey we're going to help you

0:53:02.880,0:53:06.960
with your emails it's i think that's a

0:53:05.040,0:53:09.359
pretty neat product

0:53:06.960,0:53:10.400
thanks i i think so we we want to help

0:53:09.359,0:53:12.480
people make

0:53:10.400,0:53:13.599
really good emails right we want to

0:53:12.480,0:53:16.079
educate them

0:53:13.599,0:53:17.040
through showing them what else is out

0:53:16.079,0:53:20.559
there and

0:53:17.040,0:53:23.760
the visuals and the code we want to

0:53:20.559,0:53:27.119
educate them through tutorials and case

0:53:23.760,0:53:29.520
studies and articles

0:53:27.119,0:53:30.319
and and curate those from other people

0:53:29.520,0:53:33.359
within the

0:53:30.319,0:53:36.480
community as well not just us uh

0:53:33.359,0:53:37.040
and then we want to give them tools to

0:53:36.480,0:53:40.400
enable

0:53:37.040,0:53:42.160
better collaboration to succeed at email

0:53:40.400,0:53:43.440
and right now one of the biggest pieces

0:53:42.160,0:53:46.960
of friction

0:53:43.440,0:53:50.079
is the ability to qa you know

0:53:46.960,0:53:53.040
either other people's emails or your own

0:53:50.079,0:53:53.440
yeah uh in a collaborative way yeah but

0:53:53.040,0:53:56.079
that

0:53:53.440,0:53:56.640
feel like in the design world that that

0:53:56.079,0:54:00.079
is so

0:53:56.640,0:54:02.000
fundamental that is it's it's like basic

0:54:00.079,0:54:03.760
building blocks but in the email world

0:54:02.000,0:54:06.240
it doesn't exist and so

0:54:03.760,0:54:08.160
we feel like it's a it's a good service

0:54:06.240,0:54:10.400
and you know it's very affordable we're

0:54:08.160,0:54:14.640
gonna be charging but like nine dollars

0:54:10.400,0:54:17.359
a month per creator nice so yeah

0:54:14.640,0:54:18.319
yeah like if i'm in my gmail and i see

0:54:17.359,0:54:21.359
the company

0:54:18.319,0:54:23.760
one of the company emails come in um

0:54:21.359,0:54:25.359
and i want to go oh let me change we

0:54:23.760,0:54:27.280
need to tweak this copy

0:54:25.359,0:54:28.960
and by the way we need to run it through

0:54:27.280,0:54:31.520
this person to get approval but i want

0:54:28.960,0:54:33.200
to draft something for them to see

0:54:31.520,0:54:35.520
and then they can quickly make it like

0:54:33.200,0:54:36.880
that you can't do that i mean you got to

0:54:35.520,0:54:39.760
forward the email

0:54:36.880,0:54:40.480
and so imagine being in your gmail you

0:54:39.760,0:54:44.319
click

0:54:40.480,0:54:48.000
it's a g it's a chrome extension capture

0:54:44.319,0:54:49.920
it pops it up into you know a

0:54:48.000,0:54:51.119
view i don't know if you use loom but

0:54:49.920,0:54:54.799
it's like essentially like

0:54:51.119,0:54:57.119
loom right you immediately have a page

0:54:54.799,0:54:58.079
and you just add your comment with a

0:54:57.119,0:55:00.799
marker

0:54:58.079,0:55:01.760
you know a little like uh location type

0:55:00.799,0:55:04.000
of marker

0:55:01.760,0:55:06.480
you add in your comment and then you can

0:55:04.000,0:55:08.640
share that on slack or

0:55:06.480,0:55:09.839
you can invite people specifically by

0:55:08.640,0:55:11.760
email that's great

0:55:09.839,0:55:13.280
and they'll and if you invite them by

0:55:11.760,0:55:15.359
email then they'll get

0:55:13.280,0:55:16.559
notifications and so on and so forth as

0:55:15.359,0:55:19.280
well

0:55:16.559,0:55:21.440
so you know as a as like somebody who

0:55:19.280,0:55:22.480
owns the email on a product or somebody

0:55:21.440,0:55:25.359
who owns email

0:55:22.480,0:55:26.160
on an e-commerce shop you know we we

0:55:25.359,0:55:27.440
just think that's

0:55:26.160,0:55:30.160
that's going to be the place now if you

0:55:27.440,0:55:32.000
want to start collecting those as a team

0:55:30.160,0:55:34.000
you'll everybody on your team will need

0:55:32.000,0:55:34.880
to have an account in order to share a

0:55:34.000,0:55:37.520
folder

0:55:34.880,0:55:38.079
right so but it's that's easy right

0:55:37.520,0:55:40.000
you've got

0:55:38.079,0:55:41.520
probably no more than three or four

0:55:40.000,0:55:44.880
people per team

0:55:41.520,0:55:47.200
that need access to that so you know

0:55:44.880,0:55:48.000
maybe you're paying 36 bucks a month for

0:55:47.200,0:55:49.839
something like that

0:55:48.000,0:55:51.760
yep and then the other thing that we're

0:55:49.839,0:55:52.480
excited about on the enterprise level we

0:55:51.760,0:55:54.559
haven't

0:55:52.480,0:55:56.400
come up with the tech for this yet but

0:55:54.559,0:56:00.160
it's around the corner

0:55:56.400,0:56:02.240
is being able to subscribe an email to

0:56:00.160,0:56:03.359
like an uh to a really good email so in

0:56:02.240,0:56:05.760
other words

0:56:03.359,0:56:07.119
you have your shop and you're gonna have

0:56:05.760,0:56:09.520
automated emails

0:56:07.119,0:56:11.200
that are personalized and there's so

0:56:09.520,0:56:13.359
many varieties there

0:56:11.200,0:56:14.960
that if you're running a big shop there

0:56:13.359,0:56:16.079
are emails that are going out that you

0:56:14.960,0:56:18.240
don't even know what

0:56:16.079,0:56:19.599
content goes in them because it's all

0:56:18.240,0:56:22.000
dynamic yeah

0:56:19.599,0:56:22.880
yeah and it's hard to figure out to make

0:56:22.000,0:56:24.960
sure all those

0:56:22.880,0:56:26.880
look the way you want right because

0:56:24.960,0:56:30.240
because you a lot of esps won't

0:56:26.880,0:56:32.720
allow you to send a test of like 20

0:56:30.240,0:56:33.440
different permutations of a dynamic

0:56:32.720,0:56:34.960
email

0:56:33.440,0:56:36.880
they'll only let you send one you're

0:56:34.960,0:56:38.160
like well there are so many others what

0:56:36.880,0:56:40.240
about this

0:56:38.160,0:56:41.200
and and you could do one by one and it

0:56:40.240,0:56:43.599
was super

0:56:41.200,0:56:44.240
taxing to do that and then again same

0:56:43.599,0:56:45.599
thing you see

0:56:44.240,0:56:46.559
you see the email but you can't like

0:56:45.599,0:56:47.599
share it with your team without

0:56:46.559,0:56:50.880
screenshotting it right

0:56:47.599,0:56:54.480
right so imagine if you could subscribe

0:56:50.880,0:56:58.000
um you know joe1234

0:56:54.480,0:56:59.760
um you know plus capture at really good

0:56:58.000,0:57:04.000
emails or whatever that is

0:56:59.760,0:57:06.160
to um to your product

0:57:04.000,0:57:07.040
and then you go through and you buy

0:57:06.160,0:57:10.000
things

0:57:07.040,0:57:11.119
and you take actions and you get that

0:57:10.000,0:57:14.000
particular

0:57:11.119,0:57:15.920
user to like have you know it's a

0:57:14.000,0:57:17.520
persona within your system

0:57:15.920,0:57:19.520
and then you just start seeing the

0:57:17.520,0:57:20.960
emails come into your really good emails

0:57:19.520,0:57:23.119
account

0:57:20.960,0:57:24.640
and like you can start tracking like how

0:57:23.119,0:57:25.680
things are happening you can look at the

0:57:24.640,0:57:28.240
time stamp

0:57:25.680,0:57:29.520
you can you know start to really comment

0:57:28.240,0:57:31.280
on them see where there might be

0:57:29.520,0:57:33.440
problems

0:57:31.280,0:57:36.240
you know like nothing is i don't know

0:57:33.440,0:57:38.240
why esps don't do this already

0:57:36.240,0:57:39.280
you know and then that's the next thing

0:57:38.240,0:57:40.880
we're hoping is to

0:57:39.280,0:57:42.400
start making relationships we already

0:57:40.880,0:57:43.520
have great relationships with a lot of

0:57:42.400,0:57:46.240
esps

0:57:43.520,0:57:48.079
and to have it within your esp so send

0:57:46.240,0:57:52.319
this email from your esp

0:57:48.079,0:57:53.839
to really good emails

0:57:52.319,0:57:56.319
i think it's a good track we've we've

0:57:53.839,0:57:58.559
done a lot of usability or um

0:57:56.319,0:58:00.720
not really usability testing more like

0:57:58.559,0:58:03.040
um market fit

0:58:00.720,0:58:03.760
uh interviews and we think there's

0:58:03.040,0:58:05.680
something here

0:58:03.760,0:58:07.680
so i'm looking forward to going after it

0:58:05.680,0:58:08.319
yeah i mean great this just some great

0:58:07.680,0:58:10.160
um

0:58:08.319,0:58:12.799
distribution opportunities there as well

0:58:10.160,0:58:16.319
like you're saying with ps so

0:58:12.799,0:58:18.240
i love uh i love that idea do you um

0:58:16.319,0:58:20.880
like i noticed you know you mentioned

0:58:18.240,0:58:23.359
like b h is maybe not doing some things

0:58:20.880,0:58:24.559
ideally in how they're doing emails and

0:58:23.359,0:58:26.240
you must

0:58:24.559,0:58:28.000
with the the volume of emails that you

0:58:26.240,0:58:30.720
post and kind of critique

0:58:28.000,0:58:32.000
you must have to sort of navigate those

0:58:30.720,0:58:34.079
relationships

0:58:32.000,0:58:35.040
uh with some of these brands and

0:58:34.079,0:58:39.599
companies

0:58:35.040,0:58:41.040
if you're critiquing an email um

0:58:39.599,0:58:43.599
does that get tricky how have you

0:58:41.040,0:58:45.839
learned to kind of navigate that

0:58:43.599,0:58:48.160
it can for a while on our feedback

0:58:45.839,0:58:51.920
friday video series we would

0:58:48.160,0:58:55.119
critique people's emails um kind of like

0:58:51.920,0:58:58.160
hey this is why this email isn't good

0:58:55.119,0:59:00.480
you know and we just felt like that was

0:58:58.160,0:59:02.960
bringing negativity to the space and

0:59:00.480,0:59:04.640
was not what we wanted uh we want to be

0:59:02.960,0:59:08.160
really positive people

0:59:04.640,0:59:10.000
um and so we started finding what we

0:59:08.160,0:59:11.599
felt were the best in class emails and

0:59:10.000,0:59:14.559
then talking about

0:59:11.599,0:59:16.000
you know 85 of the great stuff and then

0:59:14.559,0:59:17.440
you know a couple of things that they

0:59:16.000,0:59:20.079
could improve on and

0:59:17.440,0:59:20.720
so far that's been awesome most people

0:59:20.079,0:59:22.559
that get

0:59:20.720,0:59:24.000
on feedback friday or even that have

0:59:22.559,0:59:24.640
their email show up on really good

0:59:24.000,0:59:27.119
emails

0:59:24.640,0:59:28.000
are so psyched you know like we're

0:59:27.119,0:59:30.720
pretty picky

0:59:28.000,0:59:32.000
there's you know if it were me up to me

0:59:30.720,0:59:34.559
we'd probably only have

0:59:32.000,0:59:35.920
about 1200 emails on on the site because

0:59:34.559,0:59:38.720
i'm

0:59:35.920,0:59:40.559
way too picky but i think you look at

0:59:38.720,0:59:41.599
some emails and you have to remember

0:59:40.559,0:59:43.200
that

0:59:41.599,0:59:45.200
not everybody's looking at this from a

0:59:43.200,0:59:45.520
design perspective they're looking at it

0:59:45.200,0:59:48.160
from

0:59:45.520,0:59:51.280
like is it doing a job perspective and

0:59:48.160,0:59:54.480
some emails are doing a really good job

0:59:51.280,0:59:56.559
at like the content and and the strategy

0:59:54.480,0:59:57.520
and serving the customer but the design

0:59:56.559,1:00:00.240
is kind of lacking

0:59:57.520,1:00:01.920
or just sort of ho-hum and i'll

1:00:00.240,1:00:04.079
sometimes we'll let those in

1:00:01.920,1:00:06.559
um so it's just an interesting you have

1:00:04.079,1:00:08.000
to kind of know what you're looking for

1:00:06.559,1:00:09.920
but what's cool is when people find

1:00:08.000,1:00:12.559
emails they like on really good emails

1:00:09.920,1:00:15.119
they can just say view code and then go

1:00:12.559,1:00:17.200
grab that code and make it theirs and

1:00:15.119,1:00:19.359
change a couple of things and

1:00:17.200,1:00:20.799
um you know change the colors change the

1:00:19.359,1:00:22.960
logo change the content

1:00:20.799,1:00:24.480
but the layout that was hard to figure

1:00:22.960,1:00:26.160
out like there you go

1:00:24.480,1:00:27.440
and that's you know that's the internet

1:00:26.160,1:00:28.559
that's what makes the internet great

1:00:27.440,1:00:31.760
yeah so

1:00:28.559,1:00:32.720
i was curious how you would grab like

1:00:31.760,1:00:35.760
the eml

1:00:32.720,1:00:37.359
file from an email and this might be

1:00:35.760,1:00:38.079
getting into some of your secret sauce

1:00:37.359,1:00:40.160
but

1:00:38.079,1:00:42.160
um you know if you're in gmail and i

1:00:40.160,1:00:45.839
click my extension to want to

1:00:42.160,1:00:49.040
how does it pull the eml uh format out

1:00:45.839,1:00:51.680
it's just it's some uh funky juju

1:00:49.040,1:00:52.720
you know it's like basically it's

1:00:51.680,1:00:55.200
parsing

1:00:52.720,1:00:57.359
um you know the email format there are

1:00:55.200,1:01:00.720
there are standard headers

1:00:57.359,1:01:04.720
uh and um you know

1:01:00.720,1:01:07.520
uh ways of interpreting email language

1:01:04.720,1:01:08.240
um and so it's taking that out putting

1:01:07.520,1:01:10.799
it into

1:01:08.240,1:01:11.760
a web page on a server screen shotting

1:01:10.799,1:01:14.400
it

1:01:11.760,1:01:16.079
and putting it into an environment that

1:01:14.400,1:01:18.480
you know you can comment on

1:01:16.079,1:01:19.599
we we there are still some interesting

1:01:18.480,1:01:21.520
bugs like

1:01:19.599,1:01:24.000
one of the things that's fascinating is

1:01:21.520,1:01:27.200
not everybody serves their images up

1:01:24.000,1:01:30.640
uh with um

1:01:27.200,1:01:34.000
uh what do you call it uh an ssl

1:01:30.640,1:01:37.520
certificate and so if you

1:01:34.000,1:01:38.960
if the esp is not serving their images

1:01:37.520,1:01:41.200
with an ssl

1:01:38.960,1:01:43.040
will have broken images on some of the

1:01:41.200,1:01:45.359
things that we do so it's like

1:01:43.040,1:01:46.799
some interesting bugs and challenges

1:01:45.359,1:01:48.880
that we're trying to work through it's

1:01:46.799,1:01:52.640
it's complicated stuff but

1:01:48.880,1:01:54.640
it's doable yeah so it's fun nice um

1:01:52.640,1:01:56.559
this is kind of a random question there

1:01:54.640,1:02:00.000
might be no good answer to

1:01:56.559,1:02:03.599
um copywriting versus design

1:02:00.000,1:02:06.480
uh do you think that there is more

1:02:03.599,1:02:06.720
opportunity overall in general to sort

1:02:06.480,1:02:09.760
of

1:02:06.720,1:02:12.640
improve the overall quality of emails

1:02:09.760,1:02:13.920
if you had to pick one through like good

1:02:12.640,1:02:17.599
copywriting

1:02:13.920,1:02:19.280
or or improving design yeah it's a great

1:02:17.599,1:02:20.880
question

1:02:19.280,1:02:23.119
the way i would think about it would be

1:02:20.880,1:02:26.000
this uh unfortunately

1:02:23.119,1:02:27.520
they're so tied it's very difficult to

1:02:26.000,1:02:29.680
decouple them

1:02:27.520,1:02:30.640
but the way i think about is this is you

1:02:29.680,1:02:33.680
have a

1:02:30.640,1:02:36.799
uh a continuum a

1:02:33.680,1:02:39.920
uh between um like very

1:02:36.799,1:02:43.520
little visual design

1:02:39.920,1:02:46.640
to very complex visual design

1:02:43.520,1:02:49.760
and then you have kind of crappy

1:02:46.640,1:02:52.240
you know ceo written uh

1:02:49.760,1:02:53.520
you know copywriting to like somebody

1:02:52.240,1:02:56.000
who knows what they're doing

1:02:53.520,1:02:58.079
copywriting both strategically and with

1:02:56.000,1:02:58.799
good english and an interesting voice in

1:02:58.079,1:03:02.400
tone

1:02:58.799,1:03:06.000
and that's a line um

1:03:02.400,1:03:08.000
down here um what happens is a lot of

1:03:06.000,1:03:09.839
people try and get to about the middle

1:03:08.000,1:03:12.880
point with visual design

1:03:09.839,1:03:16.000
but what they do is that visual design

1:03:12.880,1:03:19.359
isn't it's a lot of it but not done very

1:03:16.000,1:03:20.720
well and so it's pretty hectic

1:03:19.359,1:03:22.559
and then they don't do very well on

1:03:20.720,1:03:25.039
their copywriting either so it ends up

1:03:22.559,1:03:27.920
being a pretty shitty email

1:03:25.039,1:03:29.280
you can do very little design visual

1:03:27.920,1:03:31.200
design

1:03:29.280,1:03:33.039
and there are fantastic templates out

1:03:31.200,1:03:36.319
there that are almost entirely

1:03:33.039,1:03:37.520
typographic in nature meaning mostly

1:03:36.319,1:03:40.880
typography

1:03:37.520,1:03:44.480
with some very very simple visual

1:03:40.880,1:03:46.640
image layouts um and

1:03:44.480,1:03:47.520
the hierarchy of the text is really

1:03:46.640,1:03:50.240
clear

1:03:47.520,1:03:51.920
right you have good headings good large

1:03:50.240,1:03:54.799
copy to read on your phone

1:03:51.920,1:03:55.839
and you know otherwise and that's it

1:03:54.799,1:03:58.799
super minimal

1:03:55.839,1:04:00.720
simple get it done and then you put

1:03:58.799,1:04:03.920
really good copywriting into that

1:04:00.720,1:04:05.920
i think that would win over

1:04:03.920,1:04:07.280
mediocre copywriting and excellent

1:04:05.920,1:04:08.480
design

1:04:07.280,1:04:10.240
does that make sense what i'm saying

1:04:08.480,1:04:11.599
yeah that's a little hack a little sweet

1:04:10.240,1:04:14.880
spot hack

1:04:11.599,1:04:17.760
yeah most people overdo it you know and

1:04:14.880,1:04:20.319
it's like no no no spend more time

1:04:17.760,1:04:21.760
just getting your typography and your

1:04:20.319,1:04:23.839
hierarchy right

1:04:21.760,1:04:26.000
and then really throw down on your

1:04:23.839,1:04:28.640
copywriting and voice and tones

1:04:26.000,1:04:29.760
you'll kill it i mean honestly our own

1:04:28.640,1:04:33.359
design is like

1:04:29.760,1:04:34.400
really simple and there's so many things

1:04:33.359,1:04:37.440
i would love to change

1:04:34.400,1:04:39.359
and get better and dial in but our

1:04:37.440,1:04:41.119
copywriting is through the roof

1:04:39.359,1:04:43.200
and people love it and people are

1:04:41.119,1:04:44.720
obsessed about it yeah i wrote an email

1:04:43.200,1:04:47.520
the other day

1:04:44.720,1:04:48.240
just kind of like reminding people you

1:04:47.520,1:04:49.839
know to be

1:04:48.240,1:04:51.760
kind and loving to each other i think it

1:04:49.839,1:04:53.680
was maybe on november 2nd or something

1:04:51.760,1:04:56.960
like that

1:04:53.680,1:04:59.119
and uh it was the kind of thing

1:04:56.960,1:05:00.319
that it was just like it was on brand

1:04:59.119,1:05:01.200
right it was just like we're just being

1:05:00.319,1:05:04.240
people

1:05:01.200,1:05:04.720
and i was kind of funny about it and i

1:05:04.240,1:05:07.920
got

1:05:04.720,1:05:10.240
so many responses to that

1:05:07.920,1:05:11.039
and it just really connected for people

1:05:10.240,1:05:13.359
and taking

1:05:11.039,1:05:14.319
time to do that kind of stuff people

1:05:13.359,1:05:16.000
just love it

1:05:14.319,1:05:18.079
so that's what i'd recommend do you

1:05:16.000,1:05:20.000
enjoy writing emails do you do you

1:05:18.079,1:05:21.200
take some time out of your week or your

1:05:20.000,1:05:25.520
day to kind of

1:05:21.200,1:05:28.880
focus on that craft i don't write

1:05:25.520,1:05:29.440
our own emails mike on our team does

1:05:28.880,1:05:33.039
that and

1:05:29.440,1:05:36.240
kelly helps out with it but um

1:05:33.039,1:05:37.760
my own when i write emails to friends or

1:05:36.240,1:05:40.799
clients or whoever

1:05:37.760,1:05:43.920
i like doing that yeah um to me it's

1:05:40.799,1:05:44.799
copywriting is something that i really

1:05:43.920,1:05:47.680
take a lot of

1:05:44.799,1:05:49.200
joy and pride in and even in my designs

1:05:47.680,1:05:52.720
i don't use lorem ipsum

1:05:49.200,1:05:56.559
and never have um maybe not never

1:05:52.720,1:05:58.319
but very rarely and instead even if it's

1:05:56.559,1:06:00.559
not the actual copy

1:05:58.319,1:06:02.640
that will be used i try and use copy

1:06:00.559,1:06:05.760
that will like fit

1:06:02.640,1:06:07.760
um and it fits an intention and it just

1:06:05.760,1:06:09.359
goes so much further and one of the

1:06:07.760,1:06:12.480
things i really love to do

1:06:09.359,1:06:14.400
is to work in little easter eggs uh

1:06:12.480,1:06:15.920
in the copywriting to see if my clients

1:06:14.400,1:06:18.000
are reading

1:06:15.920,1:06:19.920
and that can be a ton of fun you know

1:06:18.000,1:06:20.640
what i mean to tease people a little bit

1:06:19.920,1:06:22.240
or drop

1:06:20.640,1:06:23.680
you know an f-bomb in or something like

1:06:22.240,1:06:24.640
that and just see if people are paying

1:06:23.680,1:06:27.200
attention

1:06:24.640,1:06:29.039
so it's fun i love it well matthew we're

1:06:27.200,1:06:32.160
a little over our time thanks for

1:06:29.039,1:06:33.039
sticking around and uh bearing with the

1:06:32.160,1:06:36.319
uh technical

1:06:33.039,1:06:38.000
stuff in the beginning there all good oh

1:06:36.319,1:06:39.359
but it was a lot of fun where's uh

1:06:38.000,1:06:41.119
where's the best place for people to

1:06:39.359,1:06:43.039
find you online

1:06:41.119,1:06:44.480
oh dude i'm really glad i could be here

1:06:43.039,1:06:47.680
it was a ton of fun

1:06:44.480,1:06:50.799
um i am whale on

1:06:47.680,1:06:52.079
twitter uh i'm not posting on instagram

1:06:50.799,1:06:54.240
much but you can see my

1:06:52.079,1:06:55.280
backlog of my photography whale on

1:06:54.240,1:06:58.400
instagram

1:06:55.280,1:07:01.440
i'm whale on dribble uh

1:06:58.400,1:07:02.079
those are the places that count uh and

1:07:01.440,1:07:05.039
uh

1:07:02.079,1:07:05.520
you can look for my new agency sometime

1:07:05.039,1:07:07.760
soon

1:07:05.520,1:07:08.960
probably in the new year uh under the

1:07:07.760,1:07:13.839
name bunsen

1:07:08.960,1:07:13.839
so just like the burner