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#97 Interview With Janis Lanka, Commerce Strategy Lead At Apply Digital

Janis is an innovative, strategic and entrepreneurial-driven Senior Ecommerce & Digital Platform Strategist; leveraging 15+ years of global experience ranging from successful start-ups to established digital agencies.

Talented in running cross-departmental ecommerce groups, digital platform strategy discovery & planning, business analysis, and customer experience design. Effectively bridges the gap between strategy, technology, and creative groups; cultivating imagination, creativity, and empowerment.

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/janislanka/

Full Transcript: https://v3.commercehero.io/podcast/97

Transcript
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as consultants and as agencies we are

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not paid enough

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to be able to do a good job

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um the point is statement

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well when you think about

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recommendations like as consultants

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you're like hey dude let's do this do

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that

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we don't have the like obligation to see

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through

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[Music]

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giannis welcome to the show how you

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doing sir

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very good greetings from canada across

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the border

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our borders are closed nobody can go in

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and out but you know our two countries

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or

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at least not for leisure right but at

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least we can we can

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talk over the internet uh can't give

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each other covet or anything like that

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last i checked

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um not yet not yet

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so are you in uh vancouver or

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uh what part yeah i've been here for 13

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years uh

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vancouver west coast uh

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it's um if if have you been here i have

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yeah actually

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i think it was about a year ago

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i went to hang out with jason uh

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billingsley

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uh oh really yeah who is the uh i like

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spent a week hanging out with him and

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he's like the first person that told me

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about you

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uh yes oh wow i love that connection i

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recently reached out to him as well uh

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and uh yeah well he jason

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was responsible for bringing me to

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canada okay

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right right right this is he was heading

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uh elastic path uh at that time

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and uh elastic path won the contract to

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provide e-commerce service for

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winter olympics 2010 in vancouver and

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and yeah and they were casting net wide

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because like that was that was

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pre-recession

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everybody was bringing people over here

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and and

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jason hired me to come from europe to

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help out with like ux and

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front-end experience and ended up

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helping with olympics

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that's awesome and you met him yeah so

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that's he is very key he's very key very

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good guy

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he's a great dude um he's now another

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really like booming industry like real

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estate

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uh yeah with his new with his company

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that he's been for a while

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yeah so he he knows how to tap in the

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right markets

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yes he does yes he does what kind of

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stuff did you do

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uh for the olympics you mentioned ux and

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stuff like that what kind of work did

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you do

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so that was well starting 2008

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so a bunch of these disciplines were

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present but they're not as evolved

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so for me we were responsible for

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handling everything for olympics in

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terms of e-commerce anything from design

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to platform to warehousing customer

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service

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so like full service because olympic

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committee doesn't do

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anything themselves they only contract

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out

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companies to to do it all for them so

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elastic path had this contract to to do

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everything for torch relay

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paralympics main olympics and and we

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also had a contract with hudson bay

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company

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and hockey canada so these are really

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big three organizations that we were

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able to

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build all the e-commerce for them

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customer service

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and fulfillment my specific

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responsibility was the design

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uh the a b testing front-end experience

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uh ux side and um

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it was fascinating because at that time

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that was when we did the first

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a b testing for checkout

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there was a time when it was multiple

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multi-page checkout and we redesigned it

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into

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a single page and we we were partnered

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with a company called wider funnel with

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chris

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goward in town here in vancouver really

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great company uh

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conversion optimization focusing a lot

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of ecomm

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and they helped us with some of the

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methodology and that's when we

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switched from single no from multi-page

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check out the single page and we saw a

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change

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and uh and the funny thing then fast

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forward maybe

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eight years later when i'm running an

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ecom at a biotech company

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we went from single page to multi-page

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uh because it was much better and

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uh so it's it goes in a circle how some

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certain industries just like the same

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things don't work just because you've

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written something

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or designed some really good check out

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doesn't mean it works for everything

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it's funny you mentioned the checkout

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stuff i was looking at

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the i think i was looking at the big

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commerce open checkout

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that they launched recently and there

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was some different

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layout they were giving some different

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examples of the types of

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checkout customizations you could do and

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one of them reminded me exactly of

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one step checkout for magento i don't

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know if you were into magento at all

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but there was this plug-in uh called

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one-step checkout which kind of

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um simplified the checkout for magento

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and became a very popular extension

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i think they're based out of um oh gosh

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i want to say

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norway i could be wrong but some one of

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the countries up there close to you guys

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and

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yeah and you're originally from um

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i'm originally from latvia that's right

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yeah um

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i spent eight years in lithuania so

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people mix up those countries which is

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fine

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they're not the same at least like but

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it's

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for most people it's it's up there

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eastern they're all really cool

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countries that's that's the thing

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uh i think that the cool countries

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everybody associates is the scandinavian

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we are crossing the the baltic sea and

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then you have latvia lithuania estonia

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they're they're they're nice countries

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so

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but nobody really knows of them as cool

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like like we don't have the

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as much musicians or musicians coming

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through right uh from their

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uh skype actually is from estonia

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really originally is that where skype

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was uh

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was uh built it was in uh yeah that's

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awesome

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that's really cool i remember hearing

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some things that really were interesting

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to me about the

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it might have been an estonian

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government related to

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i can't remember what it was it was like

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internet or yeah they're the most

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advanced one

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right right yeah they do they're voting

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through a line

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that was it uh yep so that was it it's

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interesting that topic has come up

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before

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and i think maybe because of the

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elections or um

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but i've had had another conversation

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about that recently what

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what what people miss is were asked

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why why latvia and estonia and lithuania

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because they're called baltic states and

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they're very

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like we go everywhere together but

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they're very different

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quite different and and i think if if

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i'm if i'm right

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when we joined the european union in

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2004

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there's a lot of money from europe

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europe coming in in those countries to

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support

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infrastructures to support various

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different

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rules uh for example uh it was

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subsidizing farmers to not do certain

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type of

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crop or not for fishermen to not do the

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fishing um because it already exists

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that

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already existed within the european

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union so they're subsidizing the farmers

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not to do anything

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and there's a lot of different other

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money coming for roads and other

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infrastructure

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and and what estonia did really well

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very very early on

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they took a lot of that money and

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invested into in tech

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in i.t and tech and that was both in

0:07:53.039,0:07:58.800
education and infrastructure

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and um latvian lithuania didn't do that

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um that much at all uh we're not nearly

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as much as estonia and i

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and i i'd like to think that that was

0:08:05.039,0:08:09.280
that's the reason why so much

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uh great stuff is coming from there now

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that uh

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in comparison to lavi in lithuania that

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maybe

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estonia is also enjoying being proximity

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closer to proximity to

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finland you know there's also good kind

0:08:19.280,0:08:24.639
of scandinavian money coming in

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or other thinking but that's yeah like

0:08:24.639,0:08:27.759
estonia the e-government

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voting so many different things they

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just do online and

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the rest of the world is still just

0:08:30.960,0:08:32.880
trying to figure out like how does that

0:08:32.560,0:08:36.479
work

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yeah i i i can't i'm starting to lose

0:08:36.479,0:08:39.599
count of the number of times i think to

0:08:38.080,0:08:43.039
myself without getting too much

0:08:39.599,0:08:43.919
into uh politics but like why can't we

0:08:43.039,0:08:47.839
vote online

0:08:43.919,0:08:50.560
i mean it's uh it's just it's crazy

0:08:47.839,0:08:51.839
um and i know i don't know i mean you

0:08:50.560,0:08:54.959
would think that bang like

0:08:51.839,0:08:56.480
what's the like i'm when i have

0:08:54.959,0:08:58.160
when i have do when i'm doing some

0:08:56.480,0:09:00.000
services in latvia

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uh if i need to access some government

0:09:00.000,0:09:04.160
related uh

0:09:01.200,0:09:06.800
services or even here in canada i could

0:09:04.160,0:09:08.720
access i could log in to them through my

0:09:06.800,0:09:12.080
bank account

0:09:08.720,0:09:15.680
so bank takes care of authentication

0:09:12.080,0:09:17.040
right and then authorizes that like

0:09:15.680,0:09:18.959
authenticates that you're the real

0:09:17.040,0:09:21.200
person and then that gives me the

0:09:18.959,0:09:24.160
permission to access that other

0:09:21.200,0:09:24.160
system right

0:09:24.240,0:09:30.480
i i have the same question

0:09:28.000,0:09:32.399
what's up um you know that seems to be

0:09:30.480,0:09:33.120
like you could also possibly use the

0:09:32.399,0:09:36.160
same thing

0:09:33.120,0:09:37.680
for yeah uh for like

0:09:36.160,0:09:39.680
you know the authentication is through

0:09:37.680,0:09:41.680
banks and maybe because that's just not

0:09:39.680,0:09:42.959
like not everybody can do that and you

0:09:41.680,0:09:44.800
have to prevent

0:09:42.959,0:09:46.880
double voting you know if you voted

0:09:44.800,0:09:47.839
online what prevents you from taking

0:09:46.880,0:09:50.160
that ballot like

0:09:47.839,0:09:52.240
or going showing off offline right and

0:09:50.160,0:09:54.959
to vote that i think that's maybe

0:09:52.240,0:09:55.920
the biggest concern but yeah seems to be

0:09:54.959,0:09:58.160
the tech is there

0:09:55.920,0:09:59.120
yeah i know and there's their arguments

0:09:58.160,0:10:02.720
that you know

0:09:59.120,0:10:03.839
um like things are not as secure when

0:10:02.720,0:10:05.760
there's different ways things can be

0:10:03.839,0:10:07.680
hacked if it were online

0:10:05.760,0:10:09.440
but then the time to e-commerce as i go

0:10:07.680,0:10:11.200
okay well what if everybody was

0:10:09.440,0:10:12.480
had to walk around handing each other

0:10:11.200,0:10:14.800
paper money

0:10:12.480,0:10:16.079
uh to do e-commerce it would it would

0:10:14.800,0:10:19.440
make no sense

0:10:16.079,0:10:21.920
you know um yeah so yeah it's i mean

0:10:19.440,0:10:25.120
it's there's so much already being done

0:10:21.920,0:10:26.480
and i could understand there's certain

0:10:25.120,0:10:28.959
type of maybe like a

0:10:26.480,0:10:30.560
federal election maybe like that kind of

0:10:28.959,0:10:31.839
like huge elections presidential

0:10:30.560,0:10:33.200
elections might not be something you

0:10:31.839,0:10:34.959
want to test out it on

0:10:33.200,0:10:36.240
right but there might be some municipal

0:10:34.959,0:10:38.000
ones right

0:10:36.240,0:10:39.839
some smaller ones that you could test to

0:10:38.000,0:10:41.600
test it out how does that work

0:10:39.839,0:10:44.000
uh i don't know i mean we are dealing

0:10:41.600,0:10:45.680
with big countries estonia

0:10:44.000,0:10:47.200
you know i mean i can't remember how

0:10:45.680,0:10:47.839
many million there are in latvia for

0:10:47.200,0:10:50.880
example there's

0:10:47.839,0:10:53.600
two million people so

0:10:50.880,0:10:55.040
the the diversity of banks and and

0:10:53.600,0:10:55.760
different systems is not going to be as

0:10:55.040,0:10:58.240
huge as

0:10:55.760,0:10:58.800
you're gonna see it in the u.s right

0:10:58.240,0:11:00.480
yeah

0:10:58.800,0:11:02.000
so that's uh that might be another

0:11:00.480,0:11:03.279
reason yeah hopefully we'll make some

0:11:02.000,0:11:06.240
progress on that soon

0:11:03.279,0:11:07.440
um but uh what have you been uh working

0:11:06.240,0:11:10.800
on recently

0:11:07.440,0:11:14.320
um that that's top of mind for you

0:11:10.800,0:11:17.440
that is top of mind for me right now

0:11:14.320,0:11:19.760
uh eco like so for me i've switched

0:11:17.440,0:11:20.720
i i focus both on product development

0:11:19.760,0:11:24.800
and e-commerce

0:11:20.720,0:11:27.120
yeah uh so i have found

0:11:24.800,0:11:28.399
so dude both of those worlds are really

0:11:27.120,0:11:31.279
really big in my life

0:11:28.399,0:11:33.360
in my professional life right now i i

0:11:31.279,0:11:36.000
work a lot with agencies

0:11:33.360,0:11:36.560
other other good digital agencies like

0:11:36.000,0:11:39.040
there's

0:11:36.560,0:11:40.079
some more like apply digital they've

0:11:39.040,0:11:42.560
done amazingly

0:11:40.079,0:11:43.120
good job with the digital product

0:11:42.560,0:11:45.040
development

0:11:43.120,0:11:46.320
in north america there's a domain seven

0:11:45.040,0:11:49.440
as well similar

0:11:46.320,0:11:50.959
both of them are in vancouver and and

0:11:49.440,0:11:55.040
then there's also clients that i

0:11:50.959,0:11:55.600
work directly and so for me i constantly

0:11:55.040,0:11:57.920
have this

0:11:55.600,0:11:58.639
a little bit uh like a dual life going

0:11:57.920,0:12:00.720
on you know

0:11:58.639,0:12:02.480
like e-commerce but but i find that

0:12:00.720,0:12:04.079
e-com and product development is

0:12:02.480,0:12:06.079
becoming

0:12:04.079,0:12:07.200
similar you know like whether you're

0:12:06.079,0:12:09.680
making apps for

0:12:07.200,0:12:10.959
e-com system or whether you make apps

0:12:09.680,0:12:13.040
for some other system

0:12:10.959,0:12:14.560
or it's kind of the same stuff you know

0:12:13.040,0:12:15.200
you have to understand the customer the

0:12:14.560,0:12:16.720
user

0:12:15.200,0:12:18.399
like business priorities technology

0:12:16.720,0:12:21.680
capabilities

0:12:18.399,0:12:24.959
and um and so for me in the

0:12:21.680,0:12:26.320
e-commerce world what i find is i find

0:12:24.959,0:12:29.600
this switch

0:12:26.320,0:12:31.839
from or i have found this niche working

0:12:29.600,0:12:35.360
with some almost like this interim

0:12:31.839,0:12:39.279
ecom director

0:12:35.360,0:12:42.160
where the client

0:12:39.279,0:12:44.639
is not as big to be able to afford an

0:12:42.160,0:12:47.600
agency to do everything for them

0:12:44.639,0:12:48.560
and they are not as big either to be

0:12:47.600,0:12:50.959
able to hire

0:12:48.560,0:12:52.079
like in-house everyone and so they need

0:12:50.959,0:12:54.079
someone who

0:12:52.079,0:12:56.000
is coming from outside with an

0:12:54.079,0:12:57.279
experience to work with internal

0:12:56.000,0:13:01.040
resources

0:12:57.279,0:13:02.639
to guide them and and manage them like

0:13:01.040,0:13:05.040
project manage them almost

0:13:02.639,0:13:05.920
and and get the work done so that's been

0:13:05.040,0:13:08.480
an interesting kind

0:13:05.920,0:13:09.839
of like a little switch that i've that

0:13:08.480,0:13:12.399
i've experienced

0:13:09.839,0:13:14.000
and so instead of building instead of

0:13:12.399,0:13:15.760
working for one e-commerce company to

0:13:14.000,0:13:17.680
build everything out you know you start

0:13:15.760,0:13:21.440
having these clients that need

0:13:17.680,0:13:25.680
almost like this interim interim uh

0:13:21.440,0:13:25.680
e-commerce manager as a service

0:13:25.839,0:13:29.519
i recently spoke oh no sorry please go

0:13:28.720,0:13:31.200
ahead

0:13:29.519,0:13:32.720
no no i just recently spoke even to

0:13:31.200,0:13:34.720
another agency

0:13:32.720,0:13:36.240
uh interesting interesting friend of

0:13:34.720,0:13:38.639
mine came from

0:13:36.240,0:13:40.480
boston consulting group in london

0:13:38.639,0:13:42.720
digital ventures and

0:13:40.480,0:13:44.720
and they are talking about almost like a

0:13:42.720,0:13:48.320
co-founder as a service

0:13:44.720,0:13:51.760
um so there might be some service

0:13:48.320,0:13:54.240
like service level um jobs

0:13:51.760,0:13:55.120
so to say uh that you know the company

0:13:54.240,0:13:56.639
doesn't need you

0:13:55.120,0:13:58.560
full time they can't afford you full

0:13:56.639,0:13:59.839
time and they have their own internal

0:13:58.560,0:14:00.880
resources but they just need to be

0:13:59.839,0:14:03.040
guided better

0:14:00.880,0:14:04.480
right so it's an interesting concept

0:14:03.040,0:14:05.680
we'll see where that goes maybe there's

0:14:04.480,0:14:07.600
just a need right now

0:14:05.680,0:14:08.800
that's really interesting because a lot

0:14:07.600,0:14:11.839
of time thinking of a

0:14:08.800,0:14:12.880
a um a whole big wholesaler i talked to

0:14:11.839,0:14:16.320
recently

0:14:12.880,0:14:18.720
um who is looking to do some hiring

0:14:16.320,0:14:20.320
and some like most of the time when

0:14:18.720,0:14:21.199
somebody's hiring through commerce hero

0:14:20.320,0:14:22.959
it tends to be

0:14:21.199,0:14:24.480
an agency that's sort of the niche that

0:14:22.959,0:14:25.680
works out well for us they have a team

0:14:24.480,0:14:27.199
of developers they want to add a

0:14:25.680,0:14:30.880
developer to a team

0:14:27.199,0:14:32.320
when i deal directly with merchants um

0:14:30.880,0:14:34.639
it's it's almost like there's like a

0:14:32.320,0:14:37.680
translation issue sometimes

0:14:34.639,0:14:38.720
and uh i can sometimes now start to

0:14:37.680,0:14:40.639
sense

0:14:38.720,0:14:43.279
that like they needed that e-commerce

0:14:40.639,0:14:47.440
director or that e-commerce manager role

0:14:43.279,0:14:49.360
um to uh to kind of drive things

0:14:47.440,0:14:50.560
and so they might think like oh i need

0:14:49.360,0:14:52.880
to hire

0:14:50.560,0:14:53.680
uh a developer or a technical lead or

0:14:52.880,0:14:56.480
something like that

0:14:53.680,0:14:58.160
but what they really need is like you

0:14:56.480,0:14:59.600
like that type of a person the ecom

0:14:58.160,0:15:02.720
director as a service kind of

0:14:59.600,0:15:04.880
thing to help them kind of drive things

0:15:02.720,0:15:06.560
and define things

0:15:04.880,0:15:08.320
yeah and quite often what happens is

0:15:06.560,0:15:09.600
even if they are bringing in that

0:15:08.320,0:15:12.959
developer

0:15:09.600,0:15:14.240
which might be the right choice

0:15:12.959,0:15:16.560
they need to be able to speak the

0:15:14.240,0:15:18.240
language the speak to be understand how

0:15:16.560,0:15:20.240
to manage a developer

0:15:18.240,0:15:21.519
uh you know quite often these companies

0:15:20.240,0:15:23.199
are

0:15:21.519,0:15:24.720
they're good businesses they're like

0:15:23.199,0:15:28.480
they have passion they

0:15:24.720,0:15:30.639
probably have started offline and

0:15:28.480,0:15:32.880
and they've run their first e-commerce

0:15:30.639,0:15:34.430
store on something very basic

0:15:32.880,0:15:36.399
and now they want to grow and

0:15:34.430,0:15:38.839
[Music]

0:15:36.399,0:15:42.880
bring in another and like some

0:15:38.839,0:15:44.880
specialists or developers or designers

0:15:42.880,0:15:46.639
doesn't mean that suddenly they will be

0:15:44.880,0:15:47.680
able to do everything all the magic for

0:15:46.639,0:15:49.600
them the owner

0:15:47.680,0:15:51.360
also needs to be able to manage that

0:15:49.600,0:15:53.920
type of

0:15:51.360,0:15:55.279
discipline yeah you know that you have

0:15:53.920,0:15:57.120
to be able to speak the

0:15:55.279,0:15:58.959
developer's language you know it's easy

0:15:57.120,0:16:00.480
to get frustrated it doesn't work wise

0:15:58.959,0:16:01.839
it has bugs you know but

0:16:00.480,0:16:03.519
you need to be able to speak that

0:16:01.839,0:16:06.480
language provide the details

0:16:03.519,0:16:07.600
on the level that they need and that's

0:16:06.480,0:16:10.399
that's where i

0:16:07.600,0:16:12.880
i started originally as a designer i

0:16:10.399,0:16:16.160
started earning money as a designer

0:16:12.880,0:16:20.959
so that has given me an understanding

0:16:16.160,0:16:23.040
of what design is i can't do it anymore

0:16:20.959,0:16:25.120
like every designer is so much better

0:16:23.040,0:16:26.240
has evolved it like the different tools

0:16:25.120,0:16:29.519
that are being used

0:16:26.240,0:16:33.600
but i can speak that language yeah and

0:16:29.519,0:16:35.360
and same is for tech i i i started

0:16:33.600,0:16:37.199
no it's not like development but i did

0:16:35.360,0:16:39.680
build websites like that

0:16:37.199,0:16:41.519
when the css came out i was i remember i

0:16:39.680,0:16:43.199
was doing the transition from

0:16:41.519,0:16:44.800
hey we're not doing tables we're doing

0:16:43.199,0:16:46.720
css

0:16:44.800,0:16:48.720
and that gave me a little bit better

0:16:46.720,0:16:50.240
understanding of development and i've

0:16:48.720,0:16:52.399
learned something like and i've been

0:16:50.240,0:16:54.480
working with engineers like most of my

0:16:52.399,0:16:58.000
professional life now

0:16:54.480,0:16:59.759
and that gives me an ability to

0:16:58.000,0:17:01.839
to speak their language so i'm almost

0:16:59.759,0:17:03.360
finding that i'm i'm in the middle

0:17:01.839,0:17:06.640
between business

0:17:03.360,0:17:08.400
and technology and design and

0:17:06.640,0:17:10.400
and i'm able to speak all their

0:17:08.400,0:17:13.919
languages without them needing

0:17:10.400,0:17:15.199
like a lead in each and and yeah like

0:17:13.919,0:17:17.039
it's uh sometimes you need that

0:17:15.199,0:17:19.760
translator or to set

0:17:17.039,0:17:20.559
to set the foundation um but i don't

0:17:19.760,0:17:23.039
think that

0:17:20.559,0:17:23.839
the company needs me like forever

0:17:23.039,0:17:25.439
there's certain

0:17:23.839,0:17:27.760
sometimes you just need to have solve a

0:17:25.439,0:17:30.720
problem right otherwise at other times

0:17:27.760,0:17:31.600
the retainer one day a week two days a

0:17:30.720,0:17:33.919
week depends on

0:17:31.600,0:17:35.360
how crazy it is right so that's been a

0:17:33.919,0:17:38.640
big big topic

0:17:35.360,0:17:40.720
for me and um and

0:17:38.640,0:17:42.640
and and then in the product development

0:17:40.720,0:17:44.720
they're similar like head of product

0:17:42.640,0:17:49.039
like interim head of products

0:17:44.720,0:17:51.520
where company is growing like crazy

0:17:49.039,0:17:52.720
this amazing company called interactio

0:17:51.520,0:17:56.320
they

0:17:52.720,0:17:58.799
uh we know when you go to conferences

0:17:56.320,0:18:00.000
or some big events where multi

0:17:58.799,0:18:03.600
multilingual speakers

0:18:00.000,0:18:05.600
are performing um churches

0:18:03.600,0:18:06.720
they every time you go there you need a

0:18:05.600,0:18:08.720
headset to

0:18:06.720,0:18:11.200
to pick up a headset so you know what

0:18:08.720,0:18:14.559
what's happening yep

0:18:11.200,0:18:16.720
so what they figured out is

0:18:14.559,0:18:18.400
that you don't need that headset that

0:18:16.720,0:18:19.200
just wears down and nobody wants to

0:18:18.400,0:18:21.200
really like

0:18:19.200,0:18:23.440
use somebody's else like heads

0:18:21.200,0:18:24.960
headphones and put them on on yourself

0:18:23.440,0:18:27.280
especially in this world right now that

0:18:24.960,0:18:29.679
we're just so careful not to do anything

0:18:27.280,0:18:30.880
but that was preferred uh everybody has

0:18:29.679,0:18:32.720
a phone

0:18:30.880,0:18:34.559
so that's already that that device the

0:18:32.720,0:18:37.039
receiver uh everybody

0:18:34.559,0:18:38.000
most people carry their own headphones

0:18:37.039,0:18:40.720
with them

0:18:38.000,0:18:42.640
and you have wi-fi so you do not need

0:18:40.720,0:18:44.160
that hardware that was

0:18:42.640,0:18:45.679
industry standard you do not need that

0:18:44.160,0:18:48.799
hardware anymore right

0:18:45.679,0:18:51.120
you can simply have an app through wi-fi

0:18:48.799,0:18:52.080
and an interpreter doesn't need to be at

0:18:51.120,0:18:54.640
the event

0:18:52.080,0:18:56.320
they could be somewhere else so the

0:18:54.640,0:18:59.360
costs are are so much

0:18:56.320,0:19:02.559
smaller so what they did with the

0:18:59.360,0:19:04.880
now that the code started

0:19:02.559,0:19:06.720
they obviously events dropped

0:19:04.880,0:19:08.960
significantly

0:19:06.720,0:19:11.360
but the government especially in europe

0:19:08.960,0:19:12.960
where you have 10 15 different languages

0:19:11.360,0:19:14.880
spoken at the same time

0:19:12.960,0:19:16.000
you need you need you need the ability

0:19:14.880,0:19:19.200
for governments to have

0:19:16.000,0:19:21.440
meetings and then translate it

0:19:19.200,0:19:22.640
so zooms and regular tools don't really

0:19:21.440,0:19:26.480
work because you have

0:19:22.640,0:19:28.799
15 20 people simultaneously talking

0:19:26.480,0:19:30.320
uh so that that wouldn't work uh that

0:19:28.799,0:19:33.679
would be terrible meeting

0:19:30.320,0:19:34.960
so they built uh on a on the foundation

0:19:33.679,0:19:36.799
that on the previous foundation they

0:19:34.960,0:19:38.640
built that tool so they've grown they've

0:19:36.799,0:19:41.679
been doing so successfully

0:19:38.640,0:19:43.280
well that um they

0:19:41.679,0:19:45.200
are still a small team so they need an

0:19:43.280,0:19:46.000
extra kind of very temporary help to

0:19:45.200,0:19:48.640
come in

0:19:46.000,0:19:49.840
and help to to solve some of the

0:19:48.640,0:19:50.880
problems that they never thought they

0:19:49.840,0:19:52.240
need to face

0:19:50.880,0:19:53.919
you know there's some of the product

0:19:52.240,0:19:56.799
management some of that is just

0:19:53.919,0:19:57.360
like people management process you know

0:19:56.799,0:19:59.280
things that

0:19:57.360,0:20:00.640
uh we laugh like somebody with gray hair

0:19:59.280,0:20:02.960
to come in and

0:20:00.640,0:20:05.039
give some give some guidance but really

0:20:02.960,0:20:05.600
they've done amazing the right job like

0:20:05.039,0:20:06.880
it's like

0:20:05.600,0:20:08.720
what they've done but they need an

0:20:06.880,0:20:11.919
additional help now to

0:20:08.720,0:20:13.840
to survive that crazy uh growth

0:20:11.919,0:20:15.760
yeah for the next six months so that

0:20:13.840,0:20:17.919
that's another uh thing on my

0:20:15.760,0:20:20.480
mind a lot now it's interesting the

0:20:17.919,0:20:23.280
space related to um

0:20:20.480,0:20:23.760
conferences virtual conferences i've

0:20:23.280,0:20:26.080
i've been

0:20:23.760,0:20:27.840
thinking about that because i would go

0:20:26.080,0:20:29.840
to conferences somewhere regularly and

0:20:27.840,0:20:31.520
you know kind of enjoyed them

0:20:29.840,0:20:33.120
and in some ways a lot of the podcasting

0:20:31.520,0:20:35.520
i'm doing is kind of a replacement for

0:20:33.120,0:20:38.880
that conference hallway track

0:20:35.520,0:20:39.200
and um you know different um companies

0:20:38.880,0:20:40.799
are

0:20:39.200,0:20:42.960
attacking solving this problem in

0:20:40.799,0:20:45.280
different ways

0:20:42.960,0:20:46.960
there's a solution called hop in which

0:20:45.280,0:20:49.919
is like a

0:20:46.960,0:20:51.919
uh online event platform uh that has

0:20:49.919,0:20:52.880
some cool features to it like networking

0:20:51.919,0:20:55.840
features

0:20:52.880,0:20:58.640
uh but you can never really recreate the

0:20:55.840,0:21:00.720
in-person experience of a conference

0:20:58.640,0:21:03.120
but i'm not at all i'm interested in

0:21:00.720,0:21:06.080
seeing if we're getting closer to that

0:21:03.120,0:21:07.919
if there's stuff out there that's um you

0:21:06.080,0:21:09.919
know getting incrementally closer to

0:21:07.919,0:21:13.600
experiences that really make you feel

0:21:09.919,0:21:14.000
almost in person like what do you miss

0:21:13.600,0:21:16.480
about

0:21:14.000,0:21:17.679
in-person conferences the most now i

0:21:16.480,0:21:20.240
think it's um

0:21:17.679,0:21:21.360
that's a great question it's it's the

0:21:20.240,0:21:24.720
whole experience

0:21:21.360,0:21:27.440
it's going somewhere being somewhere new

0:21:24.720,0:21:27.919
being in a conference space uh hanging

0:21:27.440,0:21:31.520
out with

0:21:27.919,0:21:33.280
you know buddies you know um colleagues

0:21:31.520,0:21:34.080
and who are colleagues and friends and

0:21:33.280,0:21:36.960
just

0:21:34.080,0:21:38.000
you know talking informally about things

0:21:36.960,0:21:40.799
um

0:21:38.000,0:21:41.679
and just just the connection you know

0:21:40.799,0:21:43.840
yeah

0:21:41.679,0:21:45.679
um i find that that's but it's not the

0:21:43.840,0:21:46.960
knowledge often what i miss yeah the

0:21:45.679,0:21:48.640
knowledge exists there

0:21:46.960,0:21:50.320
yeah like you don't need to go to a

0:21:48.640,0:21:52.000
conference to learn something really

0:21:50.320,0:21:53.520
like i mean no matter how we justify the

0:21:52.000,0:21:56.880
budgets like yeah

0:21:53.520,0:21:59.600
it's really just there to to

0:21:56.880,0:22:01.600
to network to to hang out with with your

0:21:59.600,0:22:03.919
friends to hang out with industry people

0:22:01.600,0:22:06.080
yeah it's not i at least in my

0:22:03.919,0:22:07.840
experience it hasn't been as much

0:22:06.080,0:22:09.679
whenever i've gone to conferences be

0:22:07.840,0:22:11.840
like okay yeah like it's

0:22:09.679,0:22:15.200
i've known that um and that's not

0:22:11.840,0:22:18.159
speaking that i know everything but it's

0:22:15.200,0:22:19.600
i love to speak to speakers and like i

0:22:18.159,0:22:21.760
love to meet up with friends

0:22:19.600,0:22:23.200
i love to just be in different places

0:22:21.760,0:22:25.360
and i think that's maybe

0:22:23.200,0:22:26.480
what the conference really adds yeah

0:22:25.360,0:22:29.600
that and

0:22:26.480,0:22:29.919
like now we can't really have the same

0:22:29.600,0:22:32.960
thing

0:22:29.919,0:22:34.640
yeah it's not the same yeah yeah

0:22:32.960,0:22:36.960
it's blowing up i mean comfort like the

0:22:34.640,0:22:40.799
digital like event

0:22:36.960,0:22:44.159
event startups uh education

0:22:40.799,0:22:44.559
is is crazy like um a good friend of

0:22:44.159,0:22:46.640
mine

0:22:44.559,0:22:48.559
she's running a new education company

0:22:46.640,0:22:51.520
called class rebel

0:22:48.559,0:22:52.640
you know and that's on the premise that

0:22:51.520,0:22:55.120
the

0:22:52.640,0:22:56.799
like the learning is not stopping

0:22:55.120,0:22:58.960
anymore at the university level like the

0:22:56.799,0:23:00.640
learning is becoming lifestyle

0:22:58.960,0:23:02.720
you know it's almost like a social club

0:23:00.640,0:23:06.480
of learning and

0:23:02.720,0:23:08.960
and so how do we how do we bring that

0:23:06.480,0:23:11.919
in like we have courseras and we have

0:23:08.960,0:23:14.640
master classes and those are

0:23:11.919,0:23:16.080
successful in their in their ways and

0:23:14.640,0:23:17.120
but there is something about live

0:23:16.080,0:23:19.520
education

0:23:17.120,0:23:23.440
uh like live scalable education so to

0:23:19.520,0:23:25.440
say that that's that something is still

0:23:23.440,0:23:26.559
unearthed and maybe not fully like

0:23:25.440,0:23:28.000
developed

0:23:26.559,0:23:29.679
because we have like we have so much

0:23:28.000,0:23:31.280
material again so much blog so much

0:23:29.679,0:23:32.159
coursera so much masterclass all these

0:23:31.280,0:23:35.360
videos exist

0:23:32.159,0:23:38.400
so much um but there's something about

0:23:35.360,0:23:40.799
us still not going through them and and

0:23:38.400,0:23:43.840
i think because there's that live

0:23:40.799,0:23:45.039
ability to talk to an instructor ability

0:23:43.840,0:23:47.679
to

0:23:45.039,0:23:49.120
um to intervene or like discuss with

0:23:47.679,0:23:52.240
other classmates like

0:23:49.120,0:23:53.120
that's something that is missing for the

0:23:52.240,0:23:54.400
corporate

0:23:53.120,0:23:55.760
education but kind of like the

0:23:54.400,0:23:57.200
professional education of corporate

0:23:55.760,0:23:59.120
professional education

0:23:57.200,0:24:01.279
so that's uh that's another interesting

0:23:59.120,0:24:03.919
place um

0:24:01.279,0:24:04.559
that we that i'm seeing a growth because

0:24:03.919,0:24:06.799
of this

0:24:04.559,0:24:09.919
isolation that we have so yeah i think

0:24:06.799,0:24:12.240
the the online education space is

0:24:09.919,0:24:13.919
so interesting there's so many um

0:24:12.240,0:24:14.480
companies attacking it from different

0:24:13.919,0:24:16.159
angles

0:24:14.480,0:24:19.120
lambda school is one i'm really

0:24:16.159,0:24:22.320
interested in it's like a coding school

0:24:19.120,0:24:24.240
with an interesting uh financing model

0:24:22.320,0:24:27.200
you know where you don't pay anything

0:24:24.240,0:24:29.600
unless you graduate and get a job and

0:24:27.200,0:24:31.679
um i think a lot about yeah i saw that

0:24:29.600,0:24:34.000
and i was very curious this is maybe

0:24:31.679,0:24:34.799
my i don't know why i thought it's like

0:24:34.000,0:24:37.440
okay what's the

0:24:34.799,0:24:39.440
what's mechanism of like them checking

0:24:37.440,0:24:41.919
up on you and getting paid

0:24:39.440,0:24:43.600
like if that's a good question like a

0:24:41.919,0:24:45.840
lot of honor system i wonder

0:24:43.600,0:24:46.640
yeah i i don't know exactly i'm sure

0:24:45.840,0:24:48.559
they have

0:24:46.640,0:24:50.000
you know some kind of a system to deal

0:24:48.559,0:24:52.400
with that i believe i saw the

0:24:50.000,0:24:53.919
um the founder at one point tweeted some

0:24:52.400,0:24:56.000
of the numbers of

0:24:53.919,0:24:58.000
any problems they had with collecting

0:24:56.000,0:25:01.039
payment it was a pretty small number

0:24:58.000,0:25:03.039
um but um yeah

0:25:01.039,0:25:04.640
that's uh it's called an income share

0:25:03.039,0:25:06.640
agreement isa

0:25:04.640,0:25:08.000
and i think that in and of itself is

0:25:06.640,0:25:09.520
kind of might become

0:25:08.000,0:25:11.279
an industry in and of itself these

0:25:09.520,0:25:13.039
income share agreements

0:25:11.279,0:25:15.440
um because you know there's so many

0:25:13.039,0:25:16.000
issues it's just like these micro

0:25:15.440,0:25:19.520
payments

0:25:16.000,0:25:19.520
which is you know yeah

0:25:20.799,0:25:25.039
it's it's like that what we what we just

0:25:22.880,0:25:28.080
see like who is going public now um

0:25:25.039,0:25:31.679
firma i'm filing for ipo

0:25:28.080,0:25:34.159
um you know the micropayments um

0:25:31.679,0:25:35.440
and so you have the installment payments

0:25:34.159,0:25:37.840
um

0:25:35.440,0:25:38.480
and so you you oh is that something

0:25:37.840,0:25:42.320
similar

0:25:38.480,0:25:45.760
already installment yeah

0:25:42.320,0:25:48.080
yep yep you know there you know that's

0:25:45.760,0:25:49.840
like and then shopify as well they

0:25:48.080,0:25:51.840
announced earlier this year that they're

0:25:49.840,0:25:53.279
they're having their like part of their

0:25:51.840,0:25:55.840
platform is going to be

0:25:53.279,0:25:57.279
something similar or is already i can

0:25:55.840,0:26:00.880
recall

0:25:57.279,0:26:02.159
and so you see these these financing

0:26:00.880,0:26:04.960
options

0:26:02.159,0:26:05.440
uh being brought in not as a third party

0:26:04.960,0:26:08.159
to be

0:26:05.440,0:26:08.720
like into a platform that you could use

0:26:08.159,0:26:11.440
as a company

0:26:08.720,0:26:12.559
they're already part of a platform and

0:26:11.440,0:26:15.279
[Music]

0:26:12.559,0:26:17.039
and so are we going to see education

0:26:15.279,0:26:20.000
startups

0:26:17.039,0:26:20.799
and financial services being kind of

0:26:20.000,0:26:23.840
like

0:26:20.799,0:26:26.000
like one and the same

0:26:23.840,0:26:27.600
you do not need to go get a loan anymore

0:26:26.000,0:26:29.440
somewhere like it's just like

0:26:27.600,0:26:31.600
there's different mechanisms how you can

0:26:29.440,0:26:35.520
start paying and how you can pay later

0:26:31.600,0:26:36.559
from your salary yeah it's fascinating

0:26:35.520,0:26:38.320
like i mean it was

0:26:36.559,0:26:39.840
because like the the founder of lambda

0:26:38.320,0:26:41.600
school gave the example

0:26:39.840,0:26:43.120
that af and they have a nine month

0:26:41.600,0:26:44.159
program so you can go through a

0:26:43.120,0:26:47.200
nine-month program

0:26:44.159,0:26:49.440
get a job and then you pay something

0:26:47.200,0:26:51.120
something like some percentage of your

0:26:49.440,0:26:52.320
salary if you make more than fifty

0:26:51.120,0:26:54.240
thousand dollars

0:26:52.320,0:26:55.679
so and then that only lasts for like

0:26:54.240,0:26:58.640
three years so at the end of

0:26:55.679,0:26:59.440
four years you've gone to school you've

0:26:58.640,0:27:02.080
paid off

0:26:59.440,0:27:03.840
what you were what you owed completely

0:27:02.080,0:27:05.200
and you have a great job probably making

0:27:03.840,0:27:07.760
six figures

0:27:05.200,0:27:08.559
and you compare that to a traditional at

0:27:07.760,0:27:10.159
least in the u.s

0:27:08.559,0:27:12.400
four-year education with the at the end

0:27:10.159,0:27:14.880
of that four years you owe

0:27:12.400,0:27:16.400
a hundred thousand right and it's it's

0:27:14.880,0:27:19.520
just night and day different

0:27:16.400,0:27:20.159
it's really kind of it is that topic is

0:27:19.520,0:27:21.919
very like

0:27:20.159,0:27:23.679
what so what do you think it was is

0:27:21.919,0:27:25.679
there a place for what's what's what's

0:27:23.679,0:27:27.679
the future for

0:27:25.679,0:27:28.960
for education institutions like what's

0:27:27.679,0:27:32.320
the what's the future for

0:27:28.960,0:27:34.480
universities colleges i ah i don't

0:27:32.320,0:27:35.919
i have to say as somebody who is a

0:27:34.480,0:27:39.440
developer

0:27:35.919,0:27:42.480
and who went to um university but uh

0:27:39.440,0:27:44.159
you know i feel like most of my skills

0:27:42.480,0:27:46.480
that have actually paid the bills

0:27:44.159,0:27:48.240
have all been things i learned myself as

0:27:46.480,0:27:49.600
a developer and being you know kind of a

0:27:48.240,0:27:52.320
business owner

0:27:49.600,0:27:54.159
i you know we also homeschool our kids

0:27:52.320,0:27:56.640
so i think a lot about

0:27:54.159,0:27:58.159
their futures and their you know career

0:27:56.640,0:28:00.960
trajectories and

0:27:58.159,0:28:02.080
i'm i'm much more bullish on the kind of

0:28:00.960,0:28:06.320
entrepreneurial

0:28:02.080,0:28:08.240
learn skills yourself um you know route

0:28:06.320,0:28:09.840
there's a lot of obviously things that

0:28:08.240,0:28:11.360
make sense for a more traditional

0:28:09.840,0:28:12.640
educational path there's a lot of great

0:28:11.360,0:28:14.559
things about

0:28:12.640,0:28:16.480
you know going to university it's a cool

0:28:14.559,0:28:19.679
experience but it's just gotten

0:28:16.480,0:28:21.120
very expensive you know have you decided

0:28:19.679,0:28:22.640
like how how far are you gonna

0:28:21.120,0:28:24.799
homeschool your kids

0:28:22.640,0:28:25.760
we don't know exactly you know it's one

0:28:24.799,0:28:28.080
of those things you kind of have to play

0:28:25.760,0:28:30.159
by ear if they start to really want to

0:28:28.080,0:28:32.240
um go into public school or something

0:28:30.159,0:28:34.799
like that then you say okay cool

0:28:32.240,0:28:35.760
but the plan is to do it as long as we

0:28:34.799,0:28:38.159
can

0:28:35.760,0:28:40.240
um so we'll see how how long that lasts

0:28:38.159,0:28:41.360
but throughout the whole process they're

0:28:40.240,0:28:44.080
involved in all sorts of

0:28:41.360,0:28:46.159
extracurriculars and volunteering

0:28:44.080,0:28:48.399
and i want to get them to start doing

0:28:46.159,0:28:51.200
entrepreneurial things as young as

0:28:48.399,0:28:52.159
you know like teenagers um actually my

0:28:51.200,0:28:54.640
daughter

0:28:52.159,0:28:57.039
she draws a lot she draws all the time

0:28:54.640,0:28:58.960
and stuff and i and so i got her an ipad

0:28:57.039,0:29:00.399
and she started drawing there and then i

0:28:58.960,0:29:01.200
was like we should try to get you like a

0:29:00.399,0:29:04.159
freelance

0:29:01.200,0:29:04.960
gig so i got her this like ten dollar

0:29:04.159,0:29:07.840
gig

0:29:04.960,0:29:08.320
illustrating uh a picture of somebody's

0:29:07.840,0:29:11.279
dog

0:29:08.320,0:29:12.240
you know oh that's hard so she she

0:29:11.279,0:29:13.440
officially

0:29:12.240,0:29:14.880
i don't know if we've actually given her

0:29:13.440,0:29:18.000
the money yet i think it's still sitting

0:29:14.880,0:29:21.039
in my paypal account

0:29:18.000,0:29:24.799
to dad's bag dad's bank is safe but

0:29:21.039,0:29:26.559
i was i was excited about that you know

0:29:24.799,0:29:28.240
yeah that's uh my brother is similar

0:29:26.559,0:29:29.200
with his kids uh my brother is very

0:29:28.240,0:29:32.320
entrepreneurial

0:29:29.200,0:29:34.159
um he has four children and all of them

0:29:32.320,0:29:36.240
like he he's looking for every

0:29:34.159,0:29:37.919
opportunity to teach that and

0:29:36.240,0:29:39.679
and i could see that all four kids are

0:29:37.919,0:29:41.679
very different you know some

0:29:39.679,0:29:43.200
some are more entrepreneurial and others

0:29:41.679,0:29:45.600
are not um

0:29:43.200,0:29:47.520
so that's why the education for me is

0:29:45.600,0:29:50.399
always i'm curious that

0:29:47.520,0:29:50.960
we celebrate entrepreneurship but not

0:29:50.399,0:29:54.159
everybody

0:29:50.960,0:29:56.799
is yeah entrepreneur and then the flip

0:29:54.159,0:29:57.600
the the unfortunate thing the bc is that

0:29:56.799,0:29:59.919
a lot of people

0:29:57.600,0:30:00.960
start losing the kind of concept of like

0:29:59.919,0:30:02.320
self-worth or like

0:30:00.960,0:30:04.159
they haven't really figured out like

0:30:02.320,0:30:06.960
good place in life because they

0:30:04.159,0:30:08.080
are not entrepreneurs right uh and and

0:30:06.960,0:30:09.600
it's um

0:30:08.080,0:30:11.760
you know we need those people that are

0:30:09.600,0:30:12.960
not entrepreneurs right we need we need

0:30:11.760,0:30:15.120
people that are doing

0:30:12.960,0:30:17.120
like that are working for someone else

0:30:15.120,0:30:20.000
right right

0:30:17.120,0:30:21.600
you need the accountants and the all the

0:30:20.000,0:30:24.320
people that make

0:30:21.600,0:30:25.279
the infrastructure run and society runs

0:30:24.320,0:30:28.159
developers as well

0:30:25.279,0:30:28.159
that are not entrepreneurs

0:30:29.520,0:30:33.120
otherwise it will be very expensive to

0:30:31.120,0:30:35.440
afford developers

0:30:33.120,0:30:36.960
right what do you think what do you

0:30:35.440,0:30:38.799
think the how do you think how do you

0:30:36.960,0:30:41.600
see this playing out with

0:30:38.799,0:30:42.880
traditional education and also how how

0:30:41.600,0:30:44.640
do you compare the way things because

0:30:42.880,0:30:46.320
you've been in canada you've been in

0:30:44.640,0:30:47.760
a lot of different countries in europe

0:30:46.320,0:30:51.120
so how do you

0:30:47.760,0:30:53.279
sort of see the different models working

0:30:51.120,0:30:55.279
so i come from a country where there's a

0:30:53.279,0:30:57.039
lot of ex like so european education

0:30:55.279,0:30:59.919
tends to be a lot more

0:30:57.039,0:31:00.559
specialized um especially when i was

0:30:59.919,0:31:03.039
studying

0:31:00.559,0:31:04.080
uh it was hey if you are going like do

0:31:03.039,0:31:05.360
you go to law school

0:31:04.080,0:31:07.840
then you're becoming like you're

0:31:05.360,0:31:10.159
studying law all the time

0:31:07.840,0:31:10.960
if you're going uh if you want to become

0:31:10.159,0:31:13.519
an engineer

0:31:10.960,0:31:15.519
you just study that all the time the

0:31:13.519,0:31:19.120
same for developers and so on

0:31:15.519,0:31:21.519
and that's the it's more like the exact

0:31:19.120,0:31:23.600
science kind of exact like um like

0:31:21.519,0:31:27.360
concentrated education

0:31:23.600,0:31:30.559
um i went to a more liberal arts

0:31:27.360,0:31:34.000
university that

0:31:30.559,0:31:37.919
i had both history philosophy

0:31:34.000,0:31:38.960
theology economics i had a concentration

0:31:37.919,0:31:41.440
in business

0:31:38.960,0:31:42.000
but the premise of liberal arts is to

0:31:41.440,0:31:45.760
give you

0:31:42.000,0:31:46.799
a foundation a kind of broader view

0:31:45.760,0:31:48.640
foundation

0:31:46.799,0:31:51.039
and and hope that that is a good

0:31:48.640,0:31:55.120
foundation for you to grow further

0:31:51.039,0:31:58.960
and and i've seen pros and cons

0:31:55.120,0:32:00.960
and so i i i look at

0:31:58.960,0:32:03.039
would you be able to teach development

0:32:00.960,0:32:03.519
in university well you that person needs

0:32:03.039,0:32:06.399
to

0:32:03.519,0:32:08.000
want that like you you need to have a

0:32:06.399,0:32:11.279
passion for it

0:32:08.000,0:32:13.039
so so maybe that

0:32:11.279,0:32:15.120
and the university i remember somebody

0:32:13.039,0:32:17.039
said that you're not going to be

0:32:15.120,0:32:18.799
learning as much in the classroom as

0:32:17.039,0:32:21.039
much you'll do in the in the

0:32:18.799,0:32:22.080
in the dorm you know because that's

0:32:21.039,0:32:23.360
where the social

0:32:22.080,0:32:25.360
happens that's where you're actually

0:32:23.360,0:32:25.760
like studying and interacting and like

0:32:25.360,0:32:27.760
doing

0:32:25.760,0:32:29.919
doing life and that's when you learn a

0:32:27.760,0:32:30.480
lot and so i i find that you know like

0:32:29.919,0:32:32.000
that's not

0:32:30.480,0:32:34.159
partying necessarily you know what just

0:32:32.000,0:32:36.320
kind of hey so you just go to university

0:32:34.159,0:32:38.399
for a party no but i feel like there's

0:32:36.320,0:32:40.080
connections that you build in the

0:32:38.399,0:32:43.279
university

0:32:40.080,0:32:46.080
cost forward like like

0:32:43.279,0:32:48.000
10 20 years later you know those people

0:32:46.080,0:32:50.880
are gonna be

0:32:48.000,0:32:52.399
very influential in different areas so

0:32:50.880,0:32:53.360
you know you suddenly build a network

0:32:52.399,0:32:56.640
that's really good

0:32:53.360,0:33:00.320
right and

0:32:56.640,0:33:03.519
so sorry this is like

0:33:00.320,0:33:05.760
is there some music like you hear the

0:33:03.519,0:33:08.159
teapot

0:33:05.760,0:33:09.120
no but i'm but i'm hearing music sorry

0:33:08.159,0:33:13.679
like hi

0:33:09.120,0:33:13.679
hold on i'm gonna check one thing yeah

0:33:17.519,0:33:22.880
sorry i'm also realizing it was on uh i

0:33:21.120,0:33:25.279
was not on a

0:33:22.880,0:33:26.559
i wasn't a battery going so this might

0:33:25.279,0:33:30.559
increase everything now

0:33:26.559,0:33:32.080
um okay sorry

0:33:30.559,0:33:34.399
no worries i thought i clicked

0:33:32.080,0:33:37.200
everything uh anyway so going back to

0:33:34.399,0:33:37.200
that education

0:33:37.519,0:33:41.919
would be i did write an article it was

0:33:40.559,0:33:43.200
more like a facetious one like

0:33:41.919,0:33:46.320
artificially driven

0:33:43.200,0:33:49.840
uh montessori school okay

0:33:46.320,0:33:52.960
um because it's like uh is star trek

0:33:49.840,0:33:53.440
the the the vulcans uh when they like

0:33:52.960,0:33:55.600
when you

0:33:53.440,0:33:57.600
do when you look at some of those i

0:33:55.600,0:33:59.200
can't remember which movie was that but

0:33:57.600,0:34:01.039
they were showing just these pods

0:33:59.200,0:34:02.720
learning pods where the kids were

0:34:01.039,0:34:04.159
individually just kids and they're like

0:34:02.720,0:34:04.799
you have screens everywhere and it's

0:34:04.159,0:34:07.519
just

0:34:04.799,0:34:09.200
teaching you personalized i think that's

0:34:07.519,0:34:12.560
ultimately where we're gonna go

0:34:09.200,0:34:14.560
like futuristically is right now it's

0:34:12.560,0:34:16.639
really weird how all the system takes

0:34:14.560,0:34:18.960
the kids from grade 1 to grade

0:34:16.639,0:34:20.000
12 or like you know everybody learns the

0:34:18.960,0:34:23.359
same thing

0:34:20.000,0:34:24.000
and so we don't really we don't really

0:34:23.359,0:34:25.440
do

0:34:24.000,0:34:28.000
a good job in terms of understanding

0:34:25.440,0:34:29.839
their comprehension you rather fake it

0:34:28.000,0:34:32.839
that you understand or you just you

0:34:29.839,0:34:35.679
don't understand and you move on which

0:34:32.839,0:34:37.119
will prohibit you from like

0:34:35.679,0:34:38.480
understanding some of the concepts later

0:34:37.119,0:34:41.760
on so there's

0:34:38.480,0:34:43.280
uh and if you are if somebody

0:34:41.760,0:34:45.040
detects that you're not comprehending

0:34:43.280,0:34:48.000
it's almost punished you're like left

0:34:45.040,0:34:48.879
after school or like just you know for

0:34:48.000,0:34:52.320
another year

0:34:48.879,0:34:55.520
yeah so i think that's what's uh and

0:34:52.320,0:34:58.960
another friend of mine is working on um

0:34:55.520,0:34:58.960
in a company where they are

0:34:59.200,0:35:03.119
measuring a comprehension of a topic of

0:35:02.320,0:35:04.880
certain

0:35:03.119,0:35:06.160
in certain in certain kind of industry

0:35:04.880,0:35:07.839
and they're they're they're measuring

0:35:06.160,0:35:08.960
whether you are comprehending when

0:35:07.839,0:35:12.400
you're learning

0:35:08.960,0:35:14.079
interesting and and i and i think that's

0:35:12.400,0:35:16.640
that's the missing piece a lot is

0:35:14.079,0:35:18.480
because when we when we

0:35:16.640,0:35:20.400
when we enroll in something it's really

0:35:18.480,0:35:22.640
and even in a professional development

0:35:20.400,0:35:24.079
in professional education there's now

0:35:22.640,0:35:26.079
been an organizations where

0:35:24.079,0:35:27.920
somebody mentions ebitda and all these

0:35:26.079,0:35:29.280
other acronyms and some people like what

0:35:27.920,0:35:31.280
is that and other people

0:35:29.280,0:35:33.680
totally understand what that means and

0:35:31.280,0:35:36.000
they can explain so much more and

0:35:33.680,0:35:37.359
and uh and so how do you even bring that

0:35:36.000,0:35:38.800
corporate education and

0:35:37.359,0:35:40.800
how do you bring everybody's awareness

0:35:38.800,0:35:43.280
without kind of like calling somebody

0:35:40.800,0:35:44.640
out that they don't understand

0:35:43.280,0:35:47.200
and i think it's that personalized

0:35:44.640,0:35:50.320
education that can only be solved by

0:35:47.200,0:35:51.920
ai you know because it's it's

0:35:50.320,0:35:54.400
understanding their comprehension on

0:35:51.920,0:35:56.880
certain topics and then

0:35:54.400,0:35:57.440
redirecting them to the certain certain

0:35:56.880,0:36:00.560
route

0:35:57.440,0:36:02.240
to to give them the information in the

0:36:00.560,0:36:03.599
shape and form that they will understand

0:36:02.240,0:36:05.680
the best

0:36:03.599,0:36:07.200
and so that i think that's the kind of

0:36:05.680,0:36:09.599
ultimate future

0:36:07.200,0:36:11.280
both in in the form of like kind of

0:36:09.599,0:36:14.160
formal education but also for

0:36:11.280,0:36:15.920
for development i would even say like

0:36:14.160,0:36:16.720
yeah that that's that's kind of like

0:36:15.920,0:36:17.760
what's in my mind

0:36:16.720,0:36:19.760
that's really interesting i've been

0:36:17.760,0:36:24.000
thinking so much lately about

0:36:19.760,0:36:27.040
finding the thing or things that you

0:36:24.000,0:36:28.960
love to do and are passionate about

0:36:27.040,0:36:30.880
like finding that thing and i've been

0:36:28.960,0:36:32.400
thinking about it for myself and also i

0:36:30.880,0:36:35.599
think about it for my kids

0:36:32.400,0:36:36.720
and for people in general like i feel

0:36:35.599,0:36:40.160
like the people that

0:36:36.720,0:36:41.599
really find that thing that you know

0:36:40.160,0:36:42.720
like in japanese there's this term

0:36:41.599,0:36:44.880
ikigai

0:36:42.720,0:36:46.000
which is the kind of the intersection of

0:36:44.880,0:36:48.880
what you're good at

0:36:46.000,0:36:50.960
what's valuable to society what you like

0:36:48.880,0:36:53.200
to do and something else

0:36:50.960,0:36:54.240
and um i've just been thinking a lot

0:36:53.200,0:36:58.640
about that and

0:36:54.240,0:37:01.760
sort of trying to find that for myself

0:36:58.640,0:37:04.560
and i think that like i don't know it's

0:37:01.760,0:37:06.640
it's magical if you find that thing

0:37:04.560,0:37:08.000
um that because you know the difference

0:37:06.640,0:37:09.839
between when you're working on something

0:37:08.000,0:37:11.280
because you have to work on it versus

0:37:09.839,0:37:13.440
you're doing something you're just

0:37:11.280,0:37:15.280
driven like you're just

0:37:13.440,0:37:16.480
excited about it and it's almost

0:37:15.280,0:37:19.119
effortless in a way

0:37:16.480,0:37:22.640
you know yeah but what do you do when

0:37:19.119,0:37:26.560
you when you can't find that

0:37:22.640,0:37:28.480
exactly right but i think that's the

0:37:26.560,0:37:30.800
challenge in society there's no

0:37:28.480,0:37:33.119
shortage of people that like we can

0:37:30.800,0:37:33.839
follow as influencers who live the life

0:37:33.119,0:37:36.240
that you're like

0:37:33.839,0:37:37.760
well i'd like that too yeah um you know

0:37:36.240,0:37:38.880
and they have clearly found something

0:37:37.760,0:37:40.640
that they love and

0:37:38.880,0:37:42.079
and and that those are the stories that

0:37:40.640,0:37:44.560
we hear

0:37:42.079,0:37:45.119
i and i totally am on the same like you

0:37:44.560,0:37:48.960
know

0:37:45.119,0:37:51.280
find what you like but sometimes

0:37:48.960,0:37:53.119
just sometimes i'd like to maybe look at

0:37:51.280,0:37:54.400
the opposite i'd be like you know screw

0:37:53.119,0:37:56.480
your passion

0:37:54.400,0:37:57.680
um pursue what earns your money and then

0:37:56.480,0:37:59.920
you can afford a passion

0:37:57.680,0:38:01.680
right i know a lot of like high school

0:37:59.920,0:38:03.280
like i know a lot of teachers

0:38:01.680,0:38:05.599
like school teachers like friends of

0:38:03.280,0:38:06.960
mine who are arguably doing what they're

0:38:05.599,0:38:09.119
passionate about but

0:38:06.960,0:38:10.640
right they can't afford to travel they

0:38:09.119,0:38:13.040
can't afford to do many things

0:38:10.640,0:38:14.400
right and and so i mean i'm not like

0:38:13.040,0:38:17.920
this is this is never really

0:38:14.400,0:38:20.960
like a simple way but i would say that

0:38:17.920,0:38:23.599
part of that education

0:38:20.960,0:38:24.880
uh and part of what we are missing is

0:38:23.599,0:38:26.480
for us to be able

0:38:24.880,0:38:27.920
like there's so many different paths

0:38:26.480,0:38:29.760
that where we could be

0:38:27.920,0:38:32.400
satisfied with what we do but

0:38:29.760,0:38:34.880
unfortunately we are still kind of very

0:38:32.400,0:38:35.760
like we only understand several paths

0:38:34.880,0:38:38.079
like

0:38:35.760,0:38:40.560
do you want to be a developer right well

0:38:38.079,0:38:43.520
i mean developers come in

0:38:40.560,0:38:45.119
so many different like variations yeah

0:38:43.520,0:38:48.320
what you could be developing

0:38:45.119,0:38:48.960
yeah and and so when someone just looks

0:38:48.320,0:38:51.119
at like hey

0:38:48.960,0:38:52.160
do you want to be a developer that's

0:38:51.119,0:38:53.599
that's one like

0:38:52.160,0:38:54.960
that we're kind of treating the world

0:38:53.599,0:38:56.079
only like oh that's the only option

0:38:54.960,0:38:57.520
there is you know but there's

0:38:56.079,0:38:59.359
so many different other things and how

0:38:57.520,0:39:01.040
do you find out about them so that's

0:38:59.359,0:39:04.640
what's really missing is that

0:39:01.040,0:39:07.280
personalized personalized code like that

0:39:04.640,0:39:07.920
montessori experience where you know you

0:39:07.280,0:39:10.640
are

0:39:07.920,0:39:12.079
it's very unique very personalized you

0:39:10.640,0:39:13.359
know like direct to you like helps you

0:39:12.079,0:39:14.720
to figure out what you're passionate

0:39:13.359,0:39:17.040
about and

0:39:14.720,0:39:18.800
shapes you up in that yeah i think

0:39:17.040,0:39:20.160
that's uh i'm that's where my hope is

0:39:18.800,0:39:22.400
for the education

0:39:20.160,0:39:23.760
and my hope is that the official

0:39:22.400,0:39:26.480
education institutions

0:39:23.760,0:39:27.119
will will facilitate that a lot more

0:39:26.480,0:39:28.640
yeah

0:39:27.119,0:39:30.800
um i mean they don't have any other

0:39:28.640,0:39:32.800
choice i think it's one of those

0:39:30.800,0:39:34.320
people are going for more alternative

0:39:32.800,0:39:36.000
education than

0:39:34.320,0:39:37.920
than official and there's a place for

0:39:36.000,0:39:40.720
that yeah what do you what do you think

0:39:37.920,0:39:43.920
are some of the gaps when it comes to

0:39:40.720,0:39:45.200
within e-commerce groups uh digital

0:39:43.920,0:39:48.400
agencies

0:39:45.200,0:39:51.599
merchants when it comes to training

0:39:48.400,0:39:53.119
or education um what are some of the

0:39:51.599,0:39:57.359
gaps that you see

0:39:53.119,0:40:00.400
that could be filled there

0:39:57.359,0:40:02.720
oh well i've been in both i've been

0:40:00.400,0:40:04.720
i've been a lot of like most of my adult

0:40:02.720,0:40:05.440
like i've spent on agency world but then

0:40:04.720,0:40:08.640
i was also

0:40:05.440,0:40:10.319
heading ecom in the biotech b2b

0:40:08.640,0:40:12.480
totally different world totally

0:40:10.319,0:40:14.400
different world and i would say that

0:40:12.480,0:40:17.040
well one thing that stood out to me from

0:40:14.400,0:40:20.079
that experience was that

0:40:17.040,0:40:24.480
as consultants as agencies we are not

0:40:20.079,0:40:28.720
paid enough to be able to do a good job

0:40:24.480,0:40:31.440
um statement

0:40:28.720,0:40:32.640
well when you think about

0:40:31.440,0:40:34.480
recommendations

0:40:32.640,0:40:35.760
like as consultants you're like hey dude

0:40:34.480,0:40:38.560
this do this do that

0:40:35.760,0:40:39.760
we don't have the like obligation to see

0:40:38.560,0:40:41.839
through

0:40:39.760,0:40:43.520
there's no client like like if if it

0:40:41.839,0:40:44.960
doesn't work it's easy to point out like

0:40:43.520,0:40:45.520
why didn't work for them because they

0:40:44.960,0:40:47.359
didn't do it

0:40:45.520,0:40:49.359
the way that you told them or some other

0:40:47.359,0:40:53.839
reasons came up right

0:40:49.359,0:40:56.319
and so your recommendations are only

0:40:53.839,0:40:57.280
part of this part of the problem that

0:40:56.319,0:40:59.119
they're lacking that

0:40:57.280,0:41:01.280
like they don't know what to do they

0:40:59.119,0:41:04.640
only they also need to know

0:41:01.280,0:41:06.400
how to do it and in order

0:41:04.640,0:41:08.079
and that how is not always that

0:41:06.400,0:41:11.119
technical thing

0:41:08.079,0:41:14.560
that that that knowledge also lies in

0:41:11.119,0:41:15.839
politics and and like in looking like

0:41:14.560,0:41:17.760
who do you need to talk to in that

0:41:15.839,0:41:20.079
organization in order to get a buy-in

0:41:17.760,0:41:20.960
you know from from another bigger group

0:41:20.079,0:41:23.920
you know who

0:41:20.960,0:41:24.240
who is like those things don't happen in

0:41:23.920,0:41:27.280
in

0:41:24.240,0:41:29.839
official meetings and i've seen

0:41:27.280,0:41:30.560
agencies like sapiens and other big ones

0:41:29.839,0:41:32.319
where

0:41:30.560,0:41:34.000
they do have a placement a permanent

0:41:32.319,0:41:35.440
placement somebody from

0:41:34.000,0:41:37.359
sapien works centuries you know they

0:41:35.440,0:41:40.079
have someone who is always there in a

0:41:37.359,0:41:40.079
client's site

0:41:40.160,0:41:43.839
and they hear then they understand how

0:41:42.160,0:41:45.760
the organization works better so it's

0:41:43.839,0:41:48.240
not only that recommendation

0:41:45.760,0:41:49.520
it's also like it's also strengthened

0:41:48.240,0:41:51.280
with context

0:41:49.520,0:41:53.440
that they know that that could work

0:41:51.280,0:41:54.000
within that budget within that specific

0:41:53.440,0:41:55.599
method

0:41:54.000,0:41:58.880
yeah and so that's that's maybe that

0:41:55.599,0:42:01.119
i've noticed quite a lot is that

0:41:58.880,0:42:02.079
uh when i was on a client side and

0:42:01.119,0:42:03.599
agencies who are coming

0:42:02.079,0:42:05.119
and recommending different things like i

0:42:03.599,0:42:07.040
know what to do like i know what to do

0:42:05.119,0:42:08.960
for next two three years

0:42:07.040,0:42:11.119
uh that's not a problem i need to figure

0:42:08.960,0:42:12.880
out like how to get it done

0:42:11.119,0:42:14.240
you know with budget restrictions with

0:42:12.880,0:42:15.359
all the different other things that are

0:42:14.240,0:42:16.960
happening

0:42:15.359,0:42:18.560
different priorities of the company they

0:42:16.960,0:42:21.680
don't see them so

0:42:18.560,0:42:23.920
that's uh that's maybe what i've noticed

0:42:21.680,0:42:27.440
a kind of a big

0:42:23.920,0:42:28.800
big gap in e-commerce i see a lot of

0:42:27.440,0:42:31.760
agencies as well

0:42:28.800,0:42:35.359
predominantly limit themselves to

0:42:31.760,0:42:38.079
whether integrations or whether design

0:42:35.359,0:42:40.000
um but i don't see a lot of agencies

0:42:38.079,0:42:41.839
offering like kind of the big five or

0:42:40.000,0:42:43.200
the kind of accenture boston consulting

0:42:41.839,0:42:44.400
group kind of thinking like business

0:42:43.200,0:42:47.680
thinking

0:42:44.400,0:42:50.800
like a lot of companies will do

0:42:47.680,0:42:52.319
hey we want to do free shipping campaign

0:42:50.800,0:42:54.079
and that's almost becomes like a

0:42:52.319,0:42:56.400
marketing campaign

0:42:54.079,0:42:57.359
but no very very few in my experience

0:42:56.400,0:42:59.200
have actually done

0:42:57.359,0:43:00.800
the enough calculations to make sure

0:42:59.200,0:43:02.560
that the free shipping campaign earns

0:43:00.800,0:43:04.160
their money

0:43:02.560,0:43:05.760
it's not supposed to be marketing

0:43:04.160,0:43:07.119
campaign i mean it could be used as a

0:43:05.760,0:43:09.680
marketing campaign but you still need to

0:43:07.119,0:43:12.560
make money

0:43:09.680,0:43:14.400
you know and so like who like there's

0:43:12.560,0:43:17.440
that number analysis crunching

0:43:14.400,0:43:18.800
or the loyalty or word systems you know

0:43:17.440,0:43:21.359
where

0:43:18.800,0:43:23.040
um quite often everybody's like hey you

0:43:21.359,0:43:24.319
know we our competitors have that like

0:43:23.040,0:43:27.760
also let's give them like

0:43:24.319,0:43:29.599
let's offer some points and um

0:43:27.760,0:43:31.440
and what happens interesting with these

0:43:29.599,0:43:32.640
systems is that late after a few years

0:43:31.440,0:43:34.480
you realize that you're a lot more

0:43:32.640,0:43:37.440
liberal with the points

0:43:34.480,0:43:39.119
you have to now scale down and and

0:43:37.440,0:43:40.960
nobody likes that you know because you

0:43:39.119,0:43:42.240
realize that after many years you start

0:43:40.960,0:43:43.920
crunching the numbers like is this

0:43:42.240,0:43:44.640
really like is this really good for us

0:43:43.920,0:43:46.720
and

0:43:44.640,0:43:48.400
um priorities change and so there's not

0:43:46.720,0:43:51.599
enough

0:43:48.400,0:43:53.440
business consulting like kind of a

0:43:51.599,0:43:55.839
like business analysis the business

0:43:53.440,0:43:59.200
analysis and technical side but it's a

0:43:55.839,0:44:00.880
kind of um accounting like uh like a

0:43:59.200,0:44:04.000
number crunching to think

0:44:00.880,0:44:06.000
okay let's if we offer free shipping for

0:44:04.000,0:44:06.560
this segment or over like we want to

0:44:06.000,0:44:09.839
increase

0:44:06.560,0:44:10.400
like over 80 dollars what do we do with

0:44:09.839,0:44:12.000
those

0:44:10.400,0:44:13.920
like with the 20 percent of audience

0:44:12.000,0:44:16.000
that was already spending 150

0:44:13.920,0:44:17.839
and more now they're now they're now

0:44:16.000,0:44:19.280
they're getting out of my automatic free

0:44:17.839,0:44:21.440
shipping you're not like

0:44:19.280,0:44:23.359
benefiting anything from them yeah so

0:44:21.440,0:44:25.920
you have to keep that in mind

0:44:23.359,0:44:27.440
uh and uh and that's it hasn't happened

0:44:25.920,0:44:29.119
enough like i haven't seen it enough

0:44:27.440,0:44:31.599
it's whether agencies are where they're

0:44:29.119,0:44:35.040
making the making the stores look pretty

0:44:31.599,0:44:36.560
or are making them functional but

0:44:35.040,0:44:38.079
they they don't go back into that kind

0:44:36.560,0:44:40.640
of business yeah

0:44:38.079,0:44:42.480
i listened to this uh pod freakonomics

0:44:40.640,0:44:44.160
podcast over the weekend

0:44:42.480,0:44:45.920
where they're basically talking about if

0:44:44.160,0:44:49.839
advertising works

0:44:45.920,0:44:51.040
like just period does advertising work

0:44:49.839,0:44:52.880
and

0:44:51.040,0:44:54.400
it's fascinating they have you know one

0:44:52.880,0:44:56.000
a representative from the head of some

0:44:54.400,0:44:56.800
big marketing association and then

0:44:56.000,0:44:59.119
there's

0:44:56.800,0:45:01.040
the researchers that are doing the study

0:44:59.119,0:45:01.680
and of course everybody has their biases

0:45:01.040,0:45:04.240
on it

0:45:01.680,0:45:06.480
and they say well coca-cola and all

0:45:04.240,0:45:08.240
these big companies that

0:45:06.480,0:45:10.880
have always advertised of course it

0:45:08.240,0:45:12.560
works but they dig into the numbers and

0:45:10.880,0:45:15.599
according to this study they find that

0:45:12.560,0:45:17.359
some relatively small advertising

0:45:15.599,0:45:18.000
elasticity number like if you double

0:45:17.359,0:45:19.839
your marketing

0:45:18.000,0:45:21.839
budget you'll get a one percent increase

0:45:19.839,0:45:23.839
in revenue some some

0:45:21.839,0:45:25.200
surprising result that they found but

0:45:23.839,0:45:27.040
it's funny how

0:45:25.200,0:45:28.720
there can be things that seem so

0:45:27.040,0:45:29.920
obviously true

0:45:28.720,0:45:32.319
like what you're saying well free

0:45:29.920,0:45:34.880
shipping obviously is going to work or

0:45:32.319,0:45:36.640
rewards systems or advertising these

0:45:34.880,0:45:38.240
things obviously work

0:45:36.640,0:45:39.680
but then if you take a minute and take

0:45:38.240,0:45:40.240
it take a step back and go well okay

0:45:39.680,0:45:42.400
let's

0:45:40.240,0:45:43.599
let's actually does anybody ever

0:45:42.400,0:45:44.640
actually go let's actually look at the

0:45:43.599,0:45:47.839
numbers

0:45:44.640,0:45:48.400
and see how well this actually works so

0:45:47.839,0:45:50.960
few

0:45:48.400,0:45:53.280
yeah so so few because even when you

0:45:50.960,0:45:55.839
take a look at advertising paid media

0:45:53.280,0:45:57.119
you only look at that first purchase

0:45:55.839,0:45:59.599
mostly most people

0:45:57.119,0:46:01.920
like it's like how many moves in chess

0:45:59.599,0:46:05.359
can you think

0:46:01.920,0:46:06.880
ahead and the first move is okay this is

0:46:05.359,0:46:08.079
how much we paid in advertising this is

0:46:06.880,0:46:11.200
how much we earned

0:46:08.079,0:46:12.800
was it worth it okay but another move

0:46:11.200,0:46:13.680
like few moves later it's like customer

0:46:12.800,0:46:16.079
lifetime value

0:46:13.680,0:46:17.040
yeah um you know i was like okay well

0:46:16.079,0:46:18.640
you know we spent

0:46:17.040,0:46:20.160
twenty dollars to get maybe thirty

0:46:18.640,0:46:21.440
dollar purchase

0:46:20.160,0:46:24.000
not the best but that's the first

0:46:21.440,0:46:25.920
purchase if you get five purchases from

0:46:24.000,0:46:28.960
that person within the next two years

0:46:25.920,0:46:30.800
great um you know but but everybody

0:46:28.960,0:46:34.000
stops at that kind of first

0:46:30.800,0:46:35.760
and so that's that's it's a

0:46:34.000,0:46:37.680
we have different opinions and what was

0:46:35.760,0:46:40.319
that uh

0:46:37.680,0:46:41.680
avinash from google analytics said that

0:46:40.319,0:46:43.040
analytics is the best way to shut off

0:46:41.680,0:46:46.319
stupid opinions

0:46:43.040,0:46:48.079
um right it helps

0:46:46.319,0:46:49.440
but you still deal with people right and

0:46:48.079,0:46:50.960
so no matter what

0:46:49.440,0:46:52.960
you know maybe that it's the right thing

0:46:50.960,0:46:54.160
to do or not you still deal with people

0:46:52.960,0:46:55.599
and they have opinions and they have

0:46:54.160,0:46:57.200
biases and so

0:46:55.599,0:46:59.440
i think another going back to that

0:46:57.200,0:47:02.800
original question what's the gap is that

0:46:59.440,0:47:04.640
is that buying management and i i've had

0:47:02.800,0:47:07.280
struggle with that myself and i had

0:47:04.640,0:47:09.200
had to learn a lot as well is that you

0:47:07.280,0:47:11.440
know what needs to be done

0:47:09.200,0:47:13.359
you you see that there's no other option

0:47:11.440,0:47:15.599
to do that that there's only that one

0:47:13.359,0:47:19.200
option but you still have to

0:47:15.599,0:47:21.200
walk everybody along uh your your

0:47:19.200,0:47:23.200
your thoughts you know nobody spends so

0:47:21.200,0:47:24.480
much time on the e-commerce or thinking

0:47:23.200,0:47:26.000
about what you think

0:47:24.480,0:47:27.760
and so now we have to convey that and

0:47:26.000,0:47:30.400
get somebody's else buy-in yeah

0:47:27.760,0:47:31.200
and and agencies quite often again like

0:47:30.400,0:47:34.559
i do

0:47:31.200,0:47:36.839
i do consulting i work for agencies but

0:47:34.559,0:47:38.000
we quite often need to produce quick

0:47:36.839,0:47:41.520
results

0:47:38.000,0:47:44.000
uh quick recommendations and

0:47:41.520,0:47:45.599
and then that's where it stops because

0:47:44.000,0:47:46.079
then we're not doing the implementation

0:47:45.599,0:47:49.359
so i

0:47:46.079,0:47:51.119
i i do like some agencies that are now

0:47:49.359,0:47:53.520
like some of the compensation is based

0:47:51.119,0:47:55.680
on performance

0:47:53.520,0:47:57.440
it's easier for some than others you

0:47:55.680,0:47:59.280
know in paid media

0:47:57.440,0:48:01.200
i've seen some i've seen actually one

0:47:59.280,0:48:04.319
e-commerce agency

0:48:01.200,0:48:05.359
they have done revenue share they've

0:48:04.319,0:48:08.160
built

0:48:05.359,0:48:08.640
uh they you need to have quite a few

0:48:08.160,0:48:11.680
years

0:48:08.640,0:48:14.640
of existing existing performance to see

0:48:11.680,0:48:16.160
like how like what's the growth and this

0:48:14.640,0:48:19.359
year has screwed up everything

0:48:16.160,0:48:20.079
right uh in terms of like benchmarking

0:48:19.359,0:48:23.280
of any

0:48:20.079,0:48:24.720
any sort but the the the theory was or

0:48:23.280,0:48:25.760
the practice for them was really good

0:48:24.720,0:48:28.000
was that they

0:48:25.760,0:48:29.520
established a good benchmark they said

0:48:28.000,0:48:30.800
okay we're going to rebuild everything

0:48:29.520,0:48:34.000
for you

0:48:30.800,0:48:35.599
um and the idea is that

0:48:34.000,0:48:37.280
you don't like they don't have to pay

0:48:35.599,0:48:40.960
100 200 whatever

0:48:37.280,0:48:42.319
thousand dollars those are right now but

0:48:40.960,0:48:46.000
they would be able to pay

0:48:42.319,0:48:48.319
based on revenue increase right and so

0:48:46.000,0:48:49.440
if you're doing your job well like you

0:48:48.319,0:48:51.280
would you would see

0:48:49.440,0:48:52.960
growth and you would want to be paid

0:48:51.280,0:48:55.839
within two three years

0:48:52.960,0:48:57.760
um and maybe that maybe that was enough

0:48:55.839,0:48:58.240
to do the work only for that first half

0:48:57.760,0:48:59.680
a year

0:48:58.240,0:49:01.599
and you don't need to do the next three

0:48:59.680,0:49:02.400
years like you know depends how how long

0:49:01.599,0:49:05.440
is your contract

0:49:02.400,0:49:06.800
so there's like hey all the benefit um

0:49:05.440,0:49:08.640
but that's another interesting model

0:49:06.800,0:49:12.000
where you are

0:49:08.640,0:49:15.440
where you are responsible for

0:49:12.000,0:49:18.559
for your recommendations that's uh yeah

0:49:15.440,0:49:20.640
that's it's i've always sort of thought

0:49:18.559,0:49:22.319
that things should go that direction i

0:49:20.640,0:49:25.440
mean if you

0:49:22.319,0:49:29.520
are a specialist in doing x y and z

0:49:25.440,0:49:30.400
to produce results um it seems like the

0:49:29.520,0:49:32.079
inevitable

0:49:30.400,0:49:33.920
inevitably you you know you'd want to

0:49:32.079,0:49:36.559
get a piece of that and that you'd be

0:49:33.920,0:49:38.079
the most incentivized to do it that way

0:49:36.559,0:49:39.520
um

0:49:38.079,0:49:41.359
but how do you track the small

0:49:39.520,0:49:43.440
recommendations like you know that that

0:49:41.359,0:49:45.520
one half an hour call that you give

0:49:43.440,0:49:46.640
client and it saved them two until two

0:49:45.520,0:49:50.480
million dollars

0:49:46.640,0:49:50.480
in in span of next two years

0:49:51.599,0:49:55.040
and that's maybe the blockchain that's

0:49:53.359,0:49:56.319
like i because i worked with scientists

0:49:55.040,0:49:58.000
they also have similar

0:49:56.319,0:50:00.079
problems right like you take a look at

0:49:58.000,0:50:01.359
nobel prize and all these other prizes

0:50:00.079,0:50:02.720
are given it's given to some of the

0:50:01.359,0:50:05.520
leads only

0:50:02.720,0:50:06.079
um they're not the only ones who did the

0:50:05.520,0:50:08.240
job

0:50:06.079,0:50:09.920
right there's like so much surrounded

0:50:08.240,0:50:12.640
and especially now in science and i

0:50:09.920,0:50:15.200
think that's the great thing about

0:50:12.640,0:50:17.440
this pandemic is that people are we are

0:50:15.200,0:50:18.160
collectively better educated of like

0:50:17.440,0:50:20.880
what is

0:50:18.160,0:50:21.440
how does the drug development happen you

0:50:20.880,0:50:23.040
know like

0:50:21.440,0:50:25.119
i think society needs to be even more

0:50:23.040,0:50:26.319
educated about that but

0:50:25.119,0:50:28.640
that's a different conversation

0:50:26.319,0:50:30.880
altogether

0:50:28.640,0:50:32.400
but with science that's also the problem

0:50:30.880,0:50:34.000
is attribution

0:50:32.400,0:50:36.400
you know there might be someone who has

0:50:34.000,0:50:37.920
an idea or who's like hey you know what

0:50:36.400,0:50:40.240
you have you thought of that and that

0:50:37.920,0:50:42.400
idea actually makes a really good change

0:50:40.240,0:50:43.599
but they but it's maybe like you know

0:50:42.400,0:50:46.800
it's a domino effect

0:50:43.599,0:50:49.359
yeah so how do you when there's a big

0:50:46.800,0:50:50.400
like awards or big money benefit how do

0:50:49.359,0:50:52.400
you

0:50:50.400,0:50:53.920
compensate maybe somebody who is like

0:50:52.400,0:50:56.640
down the road

0:50:53.920,0:50:57.520
and one one conversation is about the

0:50:56.640,0:51:00.559
blockchain

0:50:57.520,0:51:03.760
is maybe but maybe some type of a

0:51:00.559,0:51:05.440
blockchain uh mechanism is used for

0:51:03.760,0:51:07.200
consulting

0:51:05.440,0:51:08.640
where there's you know like you you have

0:51:07.200,0:51:10.000
identified it's like hey you know like

0:51:08.640,0:51:11.520
about free shipping and there's this

0:51:10.000,0:51:13.920
like specific thing and

0:51:11.520,0:51:15.119
and somehow it is being recorded in some

0:51:13.920,0:51:17.599
some type of like

0:51:15.119,0:51:19.359
crazy system and at the end of the day

0:51:17.599,0:51:22.559
you're able to extract

0:51:19.359,0:51:23.760
uh okay how much benefit was like drawn

0:51:22.559,0:51:25.119
out of that small like one

0:51:23.760,0:51:27.119
recommendation

0:51:25.119,0:51:28.720
that's interesting maybe i'm talking

0:51:27.119,0:51:29.119
about like you know like 10 years too

0:51:28.720,0:51:32.079
far

0:51:29.119,0:51:33.599
but it seems like blockchain in general

0:51:32.079,0:51:36.319
is kind of it's kind of

0:51:33.599,0:51:38.079
10 you know we can start to wrap our

0:51:36.319,0:51:41.040
heads around and start to see some

0:51:38.079,0:51:42.720
uh implementations of it but it's kind

0:51:41.040,0:51:44.319
of like the whole thing is almost like

0:51:42.720,0:51:46.160
10 years out before

0:51:44.319,0:51:47.599
we're gonna really you know have an

0:51:46.160,0:51:50.000
understanding of it

0:51:47.599,0:51:51.760
um it's like such early it's gonna be

0:51:50.000,0:51:53.680
like

0:51:51.760,0:51:55.359
i think that the companies are doing

0:51:53.680,0:51:56.160
great stuff it's just we're not finding

0:51:55.359,0:51:58.640
out about it

0:51:56.160,0:52:00.079
yeah um i think there's a lot of stuff

0:51:58.640,0:52:01.839
that is is great and

0:52:00.079,0:52:04.319
there's like one side is like i just

0:52:01.839,0:52:06.880
don't understand how it all works

0:52:04.319,0:52:08.319
but also there's so many companies that

0:52:06.880,0:52:11.280
are doing stuff that never

0:52:08.319,0:52:13.280
nobody they don't talk about that much

0:52:11.280,0:52:14.480
yeah and solving problems and so after a

0:52:13.280,0:52:15.680
few years

0:52:14.480,0:52:17.760
you're like oh you know you should do

0:52:15.680,0:52:21.280
that it's like yeah it's been done yeah

0:52:17.760,0:52:22.960
already it's working yeah

0:52:21.280,0:52:24.800
yeah there's uh for a yeah you said

0:52:22.960,0:52:27.119
you're listening to ai like what's what

0:52:24.800,0:52:30.800
stands out to you about ai

0:52:27.119,0:52:32.400
oh man uh this um yeah that podcast lex

0:52:30.800,0:52:35.119
friedman podcast he talks

0:52:32.400,0:52:38.000
a good bit about ai i think he works on

0:52:35.119,0:52:39.280
some vision based machine learning stuff

0:52:38.000,0:52:41.040
he's talked a little bit about some of

0:52:39.280,0:52:44.079
the stuff happening with

0:52:41.040,0:52:45.520
tesla with autopilot

0:52:44.079,0:52:47.200
and actually a lot of his recent

0:52:45.520,0:52:47.680
interviews have broadened out and not

0:52:47.200,0:52:50.720
been

0:52:47.680,0:52:52.960
too ai specific um

0:52:50.720,0:52:54.160
but so i i'm struggling to think of

0:52:52.960,0:52:55.920
anything real

0:52:54.160,0:52:57.760
interesting that i've learned recently

0:52:55.920,0:53:00.640
related to ai

0:52:57.760,0:53:01.920
um but it's something that um yeah i'm

0:53:00.640,0:53:03.520
always kind of thinking about

0:53:01.920,0:53:05.520
and you know looking for interesting

0:53:03.520,0:53:07.520
nuggets um

0:53:05.520,0:53:09.119
i think right now some like my friend is

0:53:07.520,0:53:11.760
doing masters and

0:53:09.119,0:53:14.240
um but what's his interest is like uh

0:53:11.760,0:53:16.240
technology ethics and

0:53:14.240,0:53:18.240
and so there's uh like it surrounds a

0:53:16.240,0:53:21.920
lot of ai conversations

0:53:18.240,0:53:23.760
and that's where like and

0:53:21.920,0:53:25.359
we have the movie that came out what was

0:53:23.760,0:53:27.280
it social dilemma

0:53:25.359,0:53:28.960
we have you know many different books

0:53:27.280,0:53:30.160
are coming out like people are finally

0:53:28.960,0:53:33.440
waking up

0:53:30.160,0:53:36.160
and trying to think about like is this

0:53:33.440,0:53:37.920
like where is where is somebody like not

0:53:36.160,0:53:39.839
monitoring in terms of this big brother

0:53:37.920,0:53:42.640
but where is somebody

0:53:39.839,0:53:43.280
evaluating what's good what's not good

0:53:42.640,0:53:47.040
uh and that's

0:53:43.280,0:53:49.280
that's an interesting topic there um

0:53:47.040,0:53:50.319
i don't think we're gonna see more yeah

0:53:49.280,0:53:54.559
i i really

0:53:50.319,0:53:57.839
so neurolink is very interesting

0:53:54.559,0:53:59.520
and a little bit terrifying

0:53:57.839,0:54:01.520
um you know the project that you like

0:53:59.520,0:54:03.599
what is this so that so this is the chip

0:54:01.520,0:54:04.640
oh yeah yeah yeah yeah right they're

0:54:03.599,0:54:06.800
gonna implant

0:54:04.640,0:54:09.040
in your brain to have a high bandwidth

0:54:06.800,0:54:12.079
communication channel to

0:54:09.040,0:54:15.119
um you know devices essentially

0:54:12.079,0:54:18.160
and they're testing it in pigs and

0:54:15.119,0:54:19.839
i think uh you know they're

0:54:18.160,0:54:22.240
i think their tagline is if you can't

0:54:19.839,0:54:24.319
beat them join them

0:54:22.240,0:54:26.079
yeah i understand that angle and maybe

0:54:24.319,0:54:27.680
my brain is just like

0:54:26.079,0:54:29.119
subconsciously ignoring all the news

0:54:27.680,0:54:30.960
about it yeah like i

0:54:29.119,0:54:32.800
i have not really looked into that

0:54:30.960,0:54:36.000
question other than just like

0:54:32.800,0:54:38.480
they did it on a pagan yeah it's um

0:54:36.000,0:54:39.359
i mean yeah it's scary to think about

0:54:38.480,0:54:41.680
that future

0:54:39.359,0:54:44.240
but i mean i do think we're going there

0:54:41.680,0:54:48.319
i mean have you seen gpt-3

0:54:44.240,0:54:50.640
uh gpt-3 yeah yeah there's a guy

0:54:48.319,0:54:53.200
i love it yeah there's a guy building a

0:54:50.640,0:54:55.040
um a system called copy.ai which

0:54:53.200,0:54:57.599
generates sales copy

0:54:55.040,0:54:58.960
using gbt3 who i'm going to get on the

0:54:57.599,0:55:02.160
podcast soon

0:54:58.960,0:55:05.760
and yeah and it seems to be working

0:55:02.160,0:55:06.000
um so that's uh i mean that kind of just

0:55:05.760,0:55:08.640
came

0:55:06.000,0:55:09.599
out of nowhere and all of a sudden it

0:55:08.640,0:55:12.400
was like this

0:55:09.599,0:55:14.559
step change in the quality of text

0:55:12.400,0:55:16.400
content that was being generated

0:55:14.559,0:55:18.480
and you're like scratching your head

0:55:16.400,0:55:22.000
going i i didn't know this was possible

0:55:18.480,0:55:24.559
you know yeah no i have used it one

0:55:22.000,0:55:26.160
uh some similar service it created

0:55:24.559,0:55:28.559
copies for

0:55:26.160,0:55:29.680
for facebook or for google ads and or

0:55:28.559,0:55:31.200
tagline and i was

0:55:29.680,0:55:34.799
just trying to see like what it can do

0:55:31.200,0:55:36.640
and you know what it did really good job

0:55:34.799,0:55:37.920
like i mean there's some there's a lot

0:55:36.640,0:55:39.359
of things that are like oh yeah this is

0:55:37.920,0:55:39.839
this is not going to work you know but

0:55:39.359,0:55:41.920
um

0:55:39.839,0:55:42.960
but you can never see how fast it's

0:55:41.920,0:55:45.839
going and

0:55:42.960,0:55:47.440
you can kind of yeah yeah that that's

0:55:45.839,0:55:48.000
the fascinating part and i feel like

0:55:47.440,0:55:51.920
that is

0:55:48.000,0:55:55.040
so well for advertising

0:55:51.920,0:55:56.960
like thinking about how much time is

0:55:55.040,0:55:58.079
being spent trying to craft that perfect

0:55:56.960,0:56:01.359
copy

0:55:58.079,0:56:05.040
and optimizing it oh

0:56:01.359,0:56:07.040
i could see how that would be such a

0:56:05.040,0:56:08.960
such a godsend you know like in time

0:56:07.040,0:56:12.880
saving yeah you know you you just

0:56:08.960,0:56:15.440
you do so much more automation and

0:56:12.880,0:56:16.000
even i'm i'm i'm wondering sometimes

0:56:15.440,0:56:19.920
like i would love

0:56:16.000,0:56:22.400
to see newsletters i have a

0:56:19.920,0:56:23.760
agency that i worked with modern craft

0:56:22.400,0:56:25.599
and they're more like strategy

0:56:23.760,0:56:26.079
consultants and more like the kind of

0:56:25.599,0:56:29.359
brand

0:56:26.079,0:56:31.599
brand strategy and a big kind of vision

0:56:29.359,0:56:34.480
planning for companies

0:56:31.599,0:56:35.200
and um and they send out amazing

0:56:34.480,0:56:39.040
newsletter

0:56:35.200,0:56:40.880
uh every two weeks and i truly truly

0:56:39.040,0:56:42.720
like one of those few newsletters that i

0:56:40.880,0:56:45.359
still keep subscribing to

0:56:42.720,0:56:46.000
and it's it's it's like a conversation

0:56:45.359,0:56:49.520
and john

0:56:46.000,0:56:51.280
paul he he com he composes

0:56:49.520,0:56:53.040
it's about marketing more like work

0:56:51.280,0:56:55.599
geared towards cmos

0:56:53.040,0:56:57.440
and it's a conversation it's like hey

0:56:55.599,0:56:59.119
this is this is like he kind of observes

0:56:57.440,0:57:00.000
what has been happening in the past two

0:56:59.119,0:57:01.599
weeks and

0:57:00.000,0:57:02.960
and writes in almost a couple of bullet

0:57:01.599,0:57:03.680
points but each of those bullet points

0:57:02.960,0:57:06.720
it sounds like it's

0:57:03.680,0:57:09.680
like a continuation of a sentence

0:57:06.720,0:57:10.400
and then off shoots off to to it to

0:57:09.680,0:57:13.119
another

0:57:10.400,0:57:15.119
article and it's so pleasant to read

0:57:13.119,0:57:18.720
easy to read rather than just like this

0:57:15.119,0:57:20.240
jam of uh jammed links and paragraphs

0:57:18.720,0:57:23.599
and everything else it was just

0:57:20.240,0:57:25.359
easy to go through and and i i was

0:57:23.599,0:57:27.280
thinking he's like i'm wondering if that

0:57:25.359,0:57:28.480
that could be trained to just write it

0:57:27.280,0:57:30.720
in that way so

0:57:28.480,0:57:32.319
right right like if you could just give

0:57:30.720,0:57:35.440
a certain format right so

0:57:32.319,0:57:37.680
right yeah that does actually seem

0:57:35.440,0:57:39.760
you know because uh you could probably

0:57:37.680,0:57:41.359
um like aggregate links you know

0:57:39.760,0:57:43.200
bookmark links that were intro like i

0:57:41.359,0:57:45.760
was talking to a buddy recently who

0:57:43.200,0:57:46.640
likes to read articles and then share

0:57:45.760,0:57:50.079
the articles

0:57:46.640,0:57:53.200
he's read but i could imagine um

0:57:50.079,0:57:54.559
you just simply bookmarking five six

0:57:53.200,0:57:56.079
seven links that you thought were

0:57:54.559,0:57:59.119
interesting this week

0:57:56.079,0:58:01.280
and then you have an uh gbt3 that's kind

0:57:59.119,0:58:02.160
of maybe trained on your tone or your

0:58:01.280,0:58:04.319
style

0:58:02.160,0:58:05.520
maybe you have a more natural style or

0:58:04.319,0:58:07.920
you know whatever

0:58:05.520,0:58:09.680
um and just generating like a short

0:58:07.920,0:58:11.520
sentence about each link or something

0:58:09.680,0:58:13.200
like that could be a really

0:58:11.520,0:58:15.440
think about your newsletters right it's

0:58:13.200,0:58:17.520
like like it's uh like if you're able to

0:58:15.440,0:58:18.000
train it to do at least maybe a portion

0:58:17.520,0:58:20.720
of that

0:58:18.000,0:58:21.680
yeah you know for you like instead of

0:58:20.720,0:58:23.599
you of writing at all

0:58:21.680,0:58:25.599
yeah yeah let's see how those are going

0:58:23.599,0:58:27.440
to be the future of newsletters yeah

0:58:25.599,0:58:28.799
i want to ask a little bit more about

0:58:27.440,0:58:30.240
apply digital i know you talked a little

0:58:28.799,0:58:32.559
bit about some of the work that you

0:58:30.240,0:58:34.480
do there and i took a look at the uh

0:58:32.559,0:58:36.160
website um this morning

0:58:34.480,0:58:38.640
and i think like you you kind of talked

0:58:36.160,0:58:40.319
about this but uh you guys

0:58:38.640,0:58:42.240
focus not just on like not just a

0:58:40.319,0:58:45.440
typical e-commerce agency but you do

0:58:42.240,0:58:47.040
a lot of product uh consulting as well

0:58:45.440,0:58:49.280
i was just curious to know like kind of

0:58:47.040,0:58:51.599
what makes apply digital unique

0:58:49.280,0:58:54.720
and you know what differentia

0:58:51.599,0:58:57.359
differentiates them as an agency

0:58:54.720,0:58:58.319
yeah so apply digital it's it's

0:58:57.359,0:59:00.400
interesting to see

0:58:58.319,0:59:01.440
how at some point in the past i was

0:59:00.400,0:59:04.400
working for last

0:59:01.440,0:59:06.640
for blast radius and then from that one

0:59:04.400,0:59:08.480
agency different other agencies spin off

0:59:06.640,0:59:09.040
like modern craft is one of them you

0:59:08.480,0:59:13.040
know like

0:59:09.040,0:59:15.839
apply digital is another one and and um

0:59:13.040,0:59:18.480
apply digital is one of the agencies i'm

0:59:15.839,0:59:18.960
working with and they predominantly

0:59:18.480,0:59:21.200
focus

0:59:18.960,0:59:22.640
on product like product design

0:59:21.200,0:59:25.599
development

0:59:22.640,0:59:27.119
e-commerce it's uh it was interesting

0:59:25.599,0:59:28.319
when we were crafting a point of view of

0:59:27.119,0:59:30.240
like what is e-commerce and

0:59:28.319,0:59:31.599
are we doing it or not well e-commerce

0:59:30.240,0:59:32.000
is just a touch point of a broader

0:59:31.599,0:59:34.799
customer

0:59:32.000,0:59:35.760
experience when like when you really

0:59:34.799,0:59:38.079
consider that

0:59:35.760,0:59:40.079
it's it's really true like it's not uh

0:59:38.079,0:59:41.520
there are agencies and there are certain

0:59:40.079,0:59:43.680
consultants that focus just on

0:59:41.520,0:59:44.960
e-commerce but

0:59:43.680,0:59:47.119
when you look at that kind of

0:59:44.960,0:59:48.720
omnichannel or holistic journey or

0:59:47.119,0:59:50.240
everything like no matter what buzzword

0:59:48.720,0:59:53.119
you look at

0:59:50.240,0:59:54.480
when somebody engages with the brand

0:59:53.119,0:59:56.880
they engage with so many different

0:59:54.480,0:59:58.720
properties so many apps and any com

0:59:56.880,1:00:01.200
a transactional experience or that

0:59:58.720,1:00:03.760
shopping is is just one of the

1:00:01.200,1:00:05.520
points of that experience and and so

1:00:03.760,1:00:07.839
when you when you approach products like

1:00:05.520,1:00:10.559
that projects like that

1:00:07.839,1:00:11.839
then you you look a lot broader and you

1:00:10.559,1:00:14.880
start developing

1:00:11.839,1:00:18.000
environment or these experiences

1:00:14.880,1:00:20.160
that truly add value

1:00:18.000,1:00:21.680
you know there's uh you know you're not

1:00:20.160,1:00:23.920
just building

1:00:21.680,1:00:25.839
a website or like a platform of some

1:00:23.920,1:00:26.640
sort just to because client asked and

1:00:25.839,1:00:29.359
it's it

1:00:26.640,1:00:31.119
you know it's it looks good you know you

1:00:29.359,1:00:33.200
you look for that where is that smart

1:00:31.119,1:00:34.400
aspect of that platform you know whether

1:00:33.200,1:00:38.319
if it's that

1:00:34.400,1:00:42.319
um you know there is this one case study

1:00:38.319,1:00:46.400
uh that's being published uh soon play

1:00:42.319,1:00:48.000
which for those who are gamers

1:00:46.400,1:00:50.160
they want to they want to play with

1:00:48.000,1:00:53.200
their buddies and they want to put

1:00:50.160,1:00:56.640
like let's say hey let's play for 10

1:00:53.200,1:00:57.280
but fifa or you know maddens and all

1:00:56.640,1:00:59.839
these other

1:00:57.280,1:01:01.280
couple of games so how do you do that

1:00:59.839,1:01:02.640
well right now everybody kind of goes an

1:01:01.280,1:01:05.440
honor system

1:01:02.640,1:01:07.040
they uh they play a game and then maybe

1:01:05.440,1:01:08.160
mired it through paypal but you know

1:01:07.040,1:01:10.799
somebody could say like no

1:01:08.160,1:01:12.240
i won like what what's mechanism there

1:01:10.799,1:01:12.880
like let alone if you play with the

1:01:12.240,1:01:16.079
stranger

1:01:12.880,1:01:18.079
or for more money so uh play

1:01:16.079,1:01:19.280
raised quite a lot of money to build the

1:01:18.079,1:01:21.440
platform and they

1:01:19.280,1:01:22.720
came to apply to say okay there's this

1:01:21.440,1:01:24.559
idea like we can

1:01:22.720,1:01:26.319
like this this there's really good niche

1:01:24.559,1:01:28.640
like what's the best way to go about

1:01:26.319,1:01:30.480
building it and that's where that's

1:01:28.640,1:01:33.680
where apply is really good at

1:01:30.480,1:01:34.000
knowing how to how to build the product

1:01:33.680,1:01:36.160
uh

1:01:34.000,1:01:37.280
in the best possible way from like as a

1:01:36.160,1:01:39.200
business

1:01:37.280,1:01:40.880
you know you're not only executing some

1:01:39.200,1:01:42.559
like clients

1:01:40.880,1:01:44.640
like hey this is what i want to build

1:01:42.559,1:01:48.000
and like here's exact specs

1:01:44.640,1:01:49.440
now you actually help help to define

1:01:48.000,1:01:50.960
what it needs to be and how it needs to

1:01:49.440,1:01:52.400
work and how it needs to like how it can

1:01:50.960,1:01:53.920
be or any money and so

1:01:52.400,1:01:55.599
part of that definition was like hey

1:01:53.920,1:01:59.359
you're using this

1:01:55.599,1:02:02.240
uh machine vision to determine

1:01:59.359,1:02:03.200
who is winning you know you you

1:02:02.240,1:02:06.480
establish

1:02:03.200,1:02:06.960
escrows to make sure that you keep the

1:02:06.480,1:02:09.599
money

1:02:06.960,1:02:10.400
and then just and put it out like and

1:02:09.599,1:02:12.079
and this

1:02:10.400,1:02:14.319
dispense it only when the veneer is

1:02:12.079,1:02:15.520
determined that is being determined also

1:02:14.319,1:02:18.160
by the machine

1:02:15.520,1:02:18.960
you know who like who you know you your

1:02:18.160,1:02:20.960
machine learns

1:02:18.960,1:02:22.480
like a machine observes a player and in

1:02:20.960,1:02:24.160
10 games they understand whether you're

1:02:22.480,1:02:25.359
expert or a beginner so that nobody can

1:02:24.160,1:02:27.599
take somebody who's like ah

1:02:25.359,1:02:29.119
like i know like i'm i'm a beginner

1:02:27.599,1:02:31.920
let's play for 100

1:02:29.119,1:02:32.799
right they're truly an expert right so

1:02:31.920,1:02:34.480
that's where

1:02:32.799,1:02:36.000
that's maybe the easiest way to describe

1:02:34.480,1:02:37.599
like it is

1:02:36.000,1:02:39.520
what makes it different and what the

1:02:37.599,1:02:41.920
applies thinking is that

1:02:39.520,1:02:42.960
it's not only just designing a good

1:02:41.920,1:02:45.760
product

1:02:42.960,1:02:46.319
uh it's actually helping you to create a

1:02:45.760,1:02:49.200
product

1:02:46.319,1:02:49.680
like vision the strategy behind it you

1:02:49.200,1:02:51.119
know

1:02:49.680,1:02:53.039
because quite often entrepreneurs when

1:02:51.119,1:02:54.240
they have ideas um

1:02:53.039,1:02:56.319
they don't necessarily know all the

1:02:54.240,1:02:58.240
details how they're going to get it done

1:02:56.319,1:03:00.240
and so there's that bridging the gap

1:02:58.240,1:03:01.760
being okay well this is you you're you

1:03:00.240,1:03:02.960
have come with the money and you come

1:03:01.760,1:03:06.079
with that vision

1:03:02.960,1:03:07.440
i understand your your desire now let's

1:03:06.079,1:03:10.319
understand

1:03:07.440,1:03:10.559
the market the user like what what can

1:03:10.319,1:03:13.280
they

1:03:10.559,1:03:16.079
what do they want truly and then

1:03:13.280,1:03:18.799
technology capabilities and limitations

1:03:16.079,1:03:20.319
uh what can be done and you and you

1:03:18.799,1:03:21.599
create that plan and you execute it

1:03:20.319,1:03:24.000
really well and so that's

1:03:21.599,1:03:26.720
that's where e-commerce as well is right

1:03:24.000,1:03:30.000
if that is a company that

1:03:26.720,1:03:32.000
um you know e-commerce we we always see

1:03:30.000,1:03:34.000
like maybe this shopping this really

1:03:32.000,1:03:35.760
like a very clear like shopify shopping

1:03:34.000,1:03:38.240
experience you know homepage and so on

1:03:35.760,1:03:39.920
but ecommerce is also some of the b2b

1:03:38.240,1:03:41.760
industries where they like publishing

1:03:39.920,1:03:44.000
companies where they need

1:03:41.760,1:03:45.760
publish like builders need to publish

1:03:44.000,1:03:47.119
certain kind of like um

1:03:45.760,1:03:48.799
announcements that they have finished

1:03:47.119,1:03:50.559
certain projects because of the like

1:03:48.799,1:03:53.039
legislations and like regulations that

1:03:50.559,1:03:54.880
they can get money from the banks if

1:03:53.039,1:03:56.799
it's published in the proper place now

1:03:54.880,1:03:59.200
even enabling that kind of 100 year old

1:03:56.799,1:04:02.559
company who has been doing publishing

1:03:59.200,1:04:04.400
for uh construction companies

1:04:02.559,1:04:05.680
you know you digitize that and that's an

1:04:04.400,1:04:07.760
e-commerce too

1:04:05.680,1:04:09.760
you know you you see like uh how that

1:04:07.760,1:04:10.640
fits in in a broader scale and you need

1:04:09.760,1:04:12.240
to figure out

1:04:10.640,1:04:14.079
how to make it so it actually makes

1:04:12.240,1:04:16.880
money because before that

1:04:14.079,1:04:17.440
money was like their cost was based on

1:04:16.880,1:04:19.039
on

1:04:17.440,1:04:21.359
like words or lines because there was

1:04:19.039,1:04:23.280
actual print was printed

1:04:21.359,1:04:24.640
but when you transition from a print

1:04:23.280,1:04:26.720
into digital

1:04:24.640,1:04:28.880
you don't have the limitation anymore

1:04:26.720,1:04:32.319
there's no limit to the space

1:04:28.880,1:04:34.079
so you can't really charge

1:04:32.319,1:04:35.440
on the same level with the same pricing

1:04:34.079,1:04:37.039
so you have to rethink it

1:04:35.440,1:04:38.559
you have to help them to rethink their

1:04:37.039,1:04:41.039
business and uh

1:04:38.559,1:04:42.559
and that's uh yeah that's what uh apply

1:04:41.039,1:04:44.240
is doing really well that's cool i

1:04:42.559,1:04:47.039
feel like you have an interesting

1:04:44.240,1:04:50.160
perspective having worked agency side

1:04:47.039,1:04:51.440
and also been really deep within uh a

1:04:50.160,1:04:52.880
merchant company

1:04:51.440,1:04:54.640
and having been on both sides and

1:04:52.880,1:04:55.119
understanding you know i know a lot of

1:04:54.640,1:04:56.799
people who

1:04:55.119,1:04:58.400
just pretty much always worked at an

1:04:56.799,1:04:58.880
agency and they enjoy that they enjoy

1:04:58.400,1:05:00.720
the

1:04:58.880,1:05:02.160
diversity of projects and getting to

1:05:00.720,1:05:04.559
work on new things and

1:05:02.160,1:05:06.240
moving at a fast pace but i think that

1:05:04.559,1:05:10.079
you probably have developed

1:05:06.240,1:05:12.000
a stronger intuition or empathy for

1:05:10.079,1:05:14.240
the way things need to happen the

1:05:12.000,1:05:16.400
internal politics the way that

1:05:14.240,1:05:18.559
um you know things need to be moved

1:05:16.400,1:05:21.200
forward within a merchant

1:05:18.559,1:05:22.000
within a company and i think you

1:05:21.200,1:05:23.920
probably have a unique

1:05:22.000,1:05:26.000
perspective there you know and are able

1:05:23.920,1:05:27.520
to help

1:05:26.000,1:05:28.799
get things sometimes i would say that

1:05:27.520,1:05:30.240
those who don't have the perspective

1:05:28.799,1:05:31.440
it's easier to get things done because

1:05:30.240,1:05:32.240
you just don't know what you're not

1:05:31.440,1:05:34.559
doing like what you're

1:05:32.240,1:05:36.319
dealing with you just go plow through

1:05:34.559,1:05:37.599
and like oh okay well i didn't know that

1:05:36.319,1:05:40.880
was not okay but

1:05:37.599,1:05:41.280
here's the result yeah um as i would

1:05:40.880,1:05:43.680
yeah

1:05:41.280,1:05:46.319
i i do have that like unique perspective

1:05:43.680,1:05:50.640
and i truly appreciate that past

1:05:46.319,1:05:54.000
um both sides are like are amazing

1:05:50.640,1:05:54.720
i would say that i i like the agency

1:05:54.000,1:05:58.079
side for

1:05:54.720,1:06:02.000
the ability to change

1:05:58.079,1:06:03.760
uh context you know like you have

1:06:02.000,1:06:05.280
you have three four or five clients at

1:06:03.760,1:06:07.440
the same time so you have to

1:06:05.280,1:06:09.200
switch around context and that that's

1:06:07.440,1:06:11.440
the energy you you're able to

1:06:09.200,1:06:14.640
like build something something you have

1:06:11.440,1:06:17.280
not done before but also

1:06:14.640,1:06:18.880
client side it allows you to go so much

1:06:17.280,1:06:22.640
deeper

1:06:18.880,1:06:24.559
you know where um it's you you

1:06:22.640,1:06:26.240
you are maybe working on one or two

1:06:24.559,1:06:28.400
things for years

1:06:26.240,1:06:30.079
but really really digging deep that's

1:06:28.400,1:06:31.039
something that agency will never have

1:06:30.079,1:06:34.079
the luxury

1:06:31.039,1:06:38.480
to be able to do now what i'm also

1:06:34.079,1:06:40.720
noticed was that client side

1:06:38.480,1:06:44.000
they're doing everything for the first

1:06:40.720,1:06:47.839
time and the only time

1:06:44.000,1:06:50.559
like when you're doing magento migration

1:06:47.839,1:06:52.400
that team is doing it for the first time

1:06:50.559,1:06:55.520
that

1:06:52.400,1:06:57.520
and the only time yeah they will

1:06:55.520,1:06:58.720
they they shouldn't be migrating again

1:06:57.520,1:07:01.200
the same like

1:06:58.720,1:07:03.039
that's it and and so when you think

1:07:01.200,1:07:04.880
about the amount of knowledge that is

1:07:03.039,1:07:06.720
being

1:07:04.880,1:07:08.480
like not wasted but it's like you know

1:07:06.720,1:07:11.119
you're they're spending all that effort

1:07:08.480,1:07:12.319
to just do that one job once yeah and

1:07:11.119,1:07:14.319
that's it

1:07:12.319,1:07:16.160
and so that's where agency i think is

1:07:14.319,1:07:17.920
really like they they've done it many

1:07:16.160,1:07:20.319
times and so they're able to

1:07:17.920,1:07:21.520
to help uh with that a lot more so

1:07:20.319,1:07:24.000
there's pros and cons and

1:07:21.520,1:07:25.599
like it's a i i recommend everybody to

1:07:24.000,1:07:27.680
experience both sides yeah

1:07:25.599,1:07:29.440
i it's a smart have you been in the

1:07:27.680,1:07:30.160
client side or you've only been oh yeah

1:07:29.440,1:07:32.000
i worked for

1:07:30.160,1:07:34.000
a what were you doing uh i worked for a

1:07:32.000,1:07:36.319
company called clean program it was a

1:07:34.000,1:07:38.079
like a supplements company they sold

1:07:36.319,1:07:40.799
cleanses and stuff like that

1:07:38.079,1:07:42.000
and i did an upgrade actually i did a

1:07:40.799,1:07:45.440
magento upgrade for

1:07:42.000,1:07:46.799
them and it went really well uh so they

1:07:45.440,1:07:48.400
brought me on full-time and it was a

1:07:46.799,1:07:50.319
great job i was living in l.a at the

1:07:48.400,1:07:51.920
time they were based in la so i was

1:07:50.319,1:07:54.640
mostly remote but we'd hang out in

1:07:51.920,1:07:57.760
person great team

1:07:54.640,1:07:59.599
really really enjoyed it um and

1:07:57.760,1:08:00.799
yeah so i did you know a bunch of

1:07:59.599,1:08:04.079
magento development

1:08:00.799,1:08:06.640
uh for them and uh it was it was cool

1:08:04.079,1:08:08.240
it was a fun experience yeah it's

1:08:06.640,1:08:11.920
fascinating to see how much

1:08:08.240,1:08:14.640
like i remember we had the biotech um

1:08:11.920,1:08:17.040
where i was where i was working and we

1:08:14.640,1:08:20.239
we had to solve

1:08:17.040,1:08:22.400
uh china uh we had to like china speed

1:08:20.239,1:08:24.000
you know like it was it was like

1:08:22.400,1:08:25.520
there was a lot of like there's a great

1:08:24.000,1:08:27.120
firewall of china as well that you need

1:08:25.520,1:08:29.600
to deal with you know and if you want to

1:08:27.120,1:08:32.319
like we have like we had amount good

1:08:29.600,1:08:33.920
amount of clients in china and so

1:08:32.319,1:08:35.679
how do you solve it when you're all your

1:08:33.920,1:08:38.880
servers are in us everything all the

1:08:35.679,1:08:41.759
services everything is us-based

1:08:38.880,1:08:43.279
and you know i remember there was one

1:08:41.759,1:08:46.560
technical architect or one dev

1:08:43.279,1:08:50.239
that who spent probably two months

1:08:46.560,1:08:53.600
on exploring like measuring testing

1:08:50.239,1:08:55.920
just trying to find out as

1:08:53.600,1:08:57.600
a way to improve improve the speed and

1:08:55.920,1:08:59.759
there's so many different options

1:08:57.600,1:09:02.239
but once we figured out i said like can

1:08:59.759,1:09:05.359
we just write a blog about it because

1:09:02.239,1:09:07.120
that knowledge is just gone right like

1:09:05.359,1:09:08.799
you're moving on to some other projects

1:09:07.120,1:09:10.560
nobody ever is going back like what

1:09:08.799,1:09:11.679
happens with all this insight that we

1:09:10.560,1:09:13.040
just spent yeah

1:09:11.679,1:09:14.960
uh we didn't publish it like

1:09:13.040,1:09:16.400
unfortunately we didn't publish it but

1:09:14.960,1:09:18.000
well that's that's that's and that's

1:09:16.400,1:09:19.600
kind of the downside of being

1:09:18.000,1:09:21.839
client-side is that

1:09:19.600,1:09:23.120
there isn't that incentive to share it

1:09:21.839,1:09:24.880
right like you wanted to share it

1:09:23.120,1:09:26.560
because you probably have that thing in

1:09:24.880,1:09:27.040
you that's the reason your agency side

1:09:26.560,1:09:29.199
of

1:09:27.040,1:09:30.319
where you you want to share things like

1:09:29.199,1:09:32.319
that like the

1:09:30.319,1:09:34.239
the idea of sharing that knowledge and

1:09:32.319,1:09:35.520
compounding the value that was created

1:09:34.239,1:09:38.560
is something that you just

1:09:35.520,1:09:40.799
are driven to do but like because for an

1:09:38.560,1:09:43.040
agency when they publish that blog post

1:09:40.799,1:09:44.239
that's marketing for them there's value

1:09:43.040,1:09:46.000
you know there's an incentive there

1:09:44.239,1:09:47.600
whereas client-side

1:09:46.000,1:09:49.679
they might want to do it and sometimes

1:09:47.600,1:09:50.960
clients will share that kind of stuff

1:09:49.679,1:09:52.880
but a lot of times they don't because

1:09:50.960,1:09:53.679
there really isn't the incentive but i'm

1:09:52.880,1:09:56.560
i'm curious

1:09:53.679,1:09:57.920
how did you get around the firewall the

1:09:56.560,1:10:00.239
chinese well i don't think

1:09:57.920,1:10:01.199
i it's been a few years so there might

1:10:00.239,1:10:03.360
be like

1:10:01.199,1:10:05.040
already different solutions but uh like

1:10:03.360,1:10:06.239
there were a couple of options we needed

1:10:05.040,1:10:09.760
to look at

1:10:06.239,1:10:11.440
even like um different cdns okay uh we

1:10:09.760,1:10:14.000
were even exploring whether you

1:10:11.440,1:10:15.440
like put like an actual server in in

1:10:14.000,1:10:18.480
within china

1:10:15.440,1:10:18.880
and uh and i think temporarily we look

1:10:18.480,1:10:22.640
we

1:10:18.880,1:10:26.159
we went with the server in japan and

1:10:22.640,1:10:28.480
um and there were very like cdn even if

1:10:26.159,1:10:30.400
there is it a chinese cdn that provides

1:10:28.480,1:10:31.760
service in north america or north

1:10:30.400,1:10:35.360
american cdn

1:10:31.760,1:10:37.679
that has some like like servers in china

1:10:35.360,1:10:38.560
uh i honestly i can't remember which

1:10:37.679,1:10:41.840
option that we

1:10:38.560,1:10:44.239
did we end up with we we finished it the

1:10:41.840,1:10:46.480
speed was much better we had to limit

1:10:44.239,1:10:48.560
we had to limit couple of uh we couldn't

1:10:46.480,1:10:49.199
track google anymore we had to give up

1:10:48.560,1:10:51.760
google

1:10:49.199,1:10:53.280
analytics right um you know that was uh

1:10:51.760,1:10:55.920
we had to like use their

1:10:53.280,1:10:58.159
analytics platform and there were a

1:10:55.920,1:11:00.960
couple of other tradeoffs that

1:10:58.159,1:11:02.159
unfortunately had to be done yeah and

1:11:00.960,1:11:04.159
and so

1:11:02.159,1:11:05.440
again it's been it's been a few years i

1:11:04.159,1:11:06.560
don't remember the details anymore but

1:11:05.440,1:11:08.000
it would have been great if there would

1:11:06.560,1:11:09.760
be somewhere where it's like yeah there

1:11:08.000,1:11:11.679
was a plus like this post

1:11:09.760,1:11:13.120
go there it's all the details it's old

1:11:11.679,1:11:15.520
details probably there's so much more

1:11:13.120,1:11:17.840
new things now yeah

1:11:15.520,1:11:18.960
well giannis it's been a lot of fun uh

1:11:17.840,1:11:21.679
catching up with you

1:11:18.960,1:11:23.600
um any uh where's the best place for

1:11:21.679,1:11:25.679
people to find you online any last plugs

1:11:23.600,1:11:29.679
you want to give before we uh

1:11:25.679,1:11:32.320
wrap up um online for me

1:11:29.679,1:11:32.880
i i don't have a blog if i if i write

1:11:32.320,1:11:34.719
something

1:11:32.880,1:11:37.120
it's going to be published on linkedin

1:11:34.719,1:11:40.239
so find me on linkedin

1:11:37.120,1:11:43.360
i'm also building out a

1:11:40.239,1:11:45.760
website called brickleywithk.com and

1:11:43.360,1:11:48.239
it's mostly focused around e-commerce

1:11:45.760,1:11:49.199
not uh not as a like a blog site but

1:11:48.239,1:11:51.600
that's that's

1:11:49.199,1:11:53.040
that's something that's a as an angle

1:11:51.600,1:11:54.880
that i'm looking at

1:11:53.040,1:11:56.800
where i i could publish an article and

1:11:54.880,1:11:58.880
i'm working on one right now that deals

1:11:56.800,1:12:02.560
with

1:11:58.880,1:12:04.080
how do you differentiate between

1:12:02.560,1:12:05.440
different strategies like a commercial

1:12:04.080,1:12:05.760
or customer experience strategies you

1:12:05.440,1:12:08.239
know

1:12:05.760,1:12:08.880
strategies that optimize customer

1:12:08.239,1:12:12.400
experience

1:12:08.880,1:12:12.400
versus those that are

1:12:12.960,1:12:16.320
driving and optimizing revenue and it's

1:12:14.800,1:12:17.600
important for companies to really

1:12:16.320,1:12:20.640
understand the difference

1:12:17.600,1:12:24.960
that's going to help them a lot more

1:12:20.640,1:12:26.480
in in just buy-in and in planning

1:12:24.960,1:12:28.080
and that's where some of that like free

1:12:26.480,1:12:29.199
shipping for example free shipping is

1:12:28.080,1:12:30.800
not really

1:12:29.199,1:12:32.239
um it shouldn't be marketing like

1:12:30.800,1:12:34.000
customer experience uh

1:12:32.239,1:12:36.000
strategy it should be a commercial one

1:12:34.000,1:12:38.880
you know it is to drive revenue but

1:12:36.000,1:12:39.280
when you think about optimizing checkout

1:12:38.880,1:12:40.800
because

1:12:39.280,1:12:42.800
everybody feels like because it deals

1:12:40.800,1:12:44.640
with money that it's uh like it's a

1:12:42.800,1:12:46.400
it's a revenue kind of strategy and it's

1:12:44.640,1:12:47.520
like no actually you know it should be

1:12:46.400,1:12:48.800
approached more like a customer

1:12:47.520,1:12:50.480
experience strategy

1:12:48.800,1:12:52.719
now you want to make the buying process

1:12:50.480,1:12:54.719
easier so it's it's a conversation

1:12:52.719,1:12:57.679
around that uh that um

1:12:54.719,1:12:59.280
i'm i'm writing out and uh and there's a

1:12:57.679,1:13:00.800
couple of other interesting topics that

1:12:59.280,1:13:01.679
uh hopefully we'll be able to publish

1:13:00.800,1:13:03.679
and so

1:13:01.679,1:13:05.600
stay tuned on that i'll have to do a

1:13:03.679,1:13:07.440
whole other podcast because that sounds

1:13:05.600,1:13:08.320
really interesting so i'd love to talk

1:13:07.440,1:13:09.679
about that

1:13:08.320,1:13:11.360
all right man thanks we'll talk to you

1:13:09.679,1:13:12.400
thanks thanks for having me it's uh it's

1:13:11.360,1:13:14.960
it's great to see

1:13:12.400,1:13:16.640
the videos uh especially when you cut

1:13:14.960,1:13:18.320
the pieces and you just publish the

1:13:16.640,1:13:19.679
small pieces i was like oh this is great

1:13:18.320,1:13:21.679
like because that's like

1:13:19.679,1:13:23.199
you know the gems are coming awesome

1:13:21.679,1:13:27.199
awesome all right brother i'll talk to

1:13:23.199,1:13:27.199
you soon