Success!
Ben co-founded CartHook, a customizable eCommerce checkout that’s is on track to exceed $1 Billion in processing in 2020.
He loves to help eCommerce brands scale to millions and achieve their fullest potential, and is currently working on something in the B2B/Wholesale space.
Twitter: https://twitter.com/skinnyandbald
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/skinnyandbald/
0:00:00.160,0:00:03.760 so i've i'd started off building a 0:00:02.159,0:00:04.720 product specifically for retailers 0:00:03.760,0:00:08.080 because that's what i know 0:00:04.720,0:00:09.760 and love and then i kept wholesale one 0:00:08.080,0:00:10.880 of those retailers was like oh i'd love 0:00:09.760,0:00:12.639 this for my b2b 0:00:10.880,0:00:17.920 business and that's what got me looking 0:00:12.639,0:00:17.920 at shopify 0:00:19.740,0:00:28.750 [Music] 0:00:29.679,0:00:33.040 ben how you doing sir welcome to the 0:00:31.519,0:00:35.360 program 0:00:33.040,0:00:36.399 thank you for having me man absolutely 0:00:35.360,0:00:39.840 nice to have uh 0:00:36.399,0:00:40.800 internet friends yeah cool internet 0:00:39.840,0:00:43.120 friends 0:00:40.800,0:00:44.000 um so what uh what have you been working 0:00:43.120,0:00:47.680 on lately what's 0:00:44.000,0:00:47.680 uh what's top of mind for you 0:00:48.239,0:00:55.840 oh that's a good question so um 0:00:52.160,0:00:58.480 so long story short 0:00:55.840,0:01:00.640 i left kart hook about two years ago and 0:00:58.480,0:01:04.320 since then i've been exploring 0:01:00.640,0:01:07.360 other b2b sas companies 0:01:04.320,0:01:10.720 in e-commerce i've been consulting as 0:01:07.360,0:01:12.159 like a fractional cto for subscription 0:01:10.720,0:01:13.760 e-commerce brands i've been working with 0:01:12.159,0:01:17.360 one in the city for a while 0:01:13.760,0:01:18.400 um and just figuring out like a 0:01:17.360,0:01:19.920 different niche 0:01:18.400,0:01:21.360 and market that that i'm interested in 0:01:19.920,0:01:22.479 trying to build a solution for within 0:01:21.360,0:01:25.360 like a similar 0:01:22.479,0:01:26.799 we'll call it mid-market e-commerce 0:01:25.360,0:01:31.600 brands and so 0:01:26.799,0:01:34.560 um early on was looking at 0:01:31.600,0:01:36.000 retail which is what our market is for 0:01:34.560,0:01:37.680 for cart hook and 0:01:36.000,0:01:39.360 what i'd say my own a lot of my own 0:01:37.680,0:01:42.079 personal experience has been 0:01:39.360,0:01:44.240 was around like tools for retailers and 0:01:42.079,0:01:46.079 performance marketers who sell retail 0:01:44.240,0:01:49.040 and over the last like six months i've 0:01:46.079,0:01:51.680 been getting into wholesale in b2b 0:01:49.040,0:01:52.560 and looking around like what exists or 0:01:51.680,0:01:55.600 doesn't 0:01:52.560,0:01:58.079 um yeah so that i have a product that 0:01:55.600,0:01:59.280 one brand's been using for the last like 0:01:58.079,0:02:01.360 nine months 0:01:59.280,0:02:02.880 and uh have been trying to find other 0:02:01.360,0:02:06.399 merchants who are like them 0:02:02.880,0:02:07.680 i think it's interesting like i've been 0:02:06.399,0:02:09.840 i've gone down i've gone through this 0:02:07.680,0:02:12.640 process several times at this point 0:02:09.840,0:02:13.840 uh with multiple brands and b2b done one 0:02:12.640,0:02:18.560 b to c 0:02:13.840,0:02:20.560 and um i'd say like this time around 0:02:18.560,0:02:23.280 i've tried to be really intentional 0:02:20.560,0:02:25.360 around the price point of the product 0:02:23.280,0:02:26.720 one of the things i know jordan's i 0:02:25.360,0:02:27.680 think jordan's been on on your on your 0:02:26.720,0:02:29.360 podcast 0:02:27.680,0:02:31.280 one of the things that we learned 0:02:29.360,0:02:32.640 realized early on was just the power of 0:02:31.280,0:02:34.080 the price point 0:02:32.640,0:02:36.000 around the types of merchants that 0:02:34.080,0:02:37.920 you're working with and i think one of 0:02:36.000,0:02:39.519 the things that 0:02:37.920,0:02:41.599 i've really enjoyed is working with 0:02:39.519,0:02:42.160 brands who you know they're doing decent 0:02:41.599,0:02:43.840 revenue 0:02:42.160,0:02:45.360 and so it's not a question i'm getting 0:02:43.840,0:02:46.400 product market fit they're competent 0:02:45.360,0:02:48.959 they're smart 0:02:46.400,0:02:50.080 um they're not trying to find an app or 0:02:48.959,0:02:52.480 a product to like 0:02:50.080,0:02:54.160 solve their sales problems which i think 0:02:52.480,0:02:56.160 especially in the 0:02:54.160,0:02:58.480 like the shopify world you know you've 0:02:56.160,0:02:59.760 that's like the the entrant price point 0:02:58.480,0:03:01.519 is intended to be for a lot of 0:02:59.760,0:03:02.720 aspirational stores which 0:03:01.519,0:03:05.200 right you know you got everyone start 0:03:02.720,0:03:07.840 somewhere and and i don't 0:03:05.200,0:03:09.280 i'm not that but uh i'm an e-commerce 0:03:07.840,0:03:11.360 merchant rather but 0:03:09.280,0:03:12.959 for me as as an engineer and a product 0:03:11.360,0:03:14.560 person i just really enjoy working with 0:03:12.959,0:03:17.760 folks who already kind of have 0:03:14.560,0:03:18.959 their product dialed dialed in and what 0:03:17.760,0:03:21.599 they really want to do is 0:03:18.959,0:03:22.959 figure out how to you know get onto the 0:03:21.599,0:03:25.920 more we're called to more complicated 0:03:22.959,0:03:29.280 problems around increasing ltv 0:03:25.920,0:03:30.640 ways to really monetize or to build 0:03:29.280,0:03:32.480 their existing business 0:03:30.640,0:03:34.159 right does that make sense yeah that 0:03:32.480,0:03:35.440 makes sense it's interesting with the 0:03:34.159,0:03:37.280 the mid-market thing because i've been 0:03:35.440,0:03:38.879 in the magento land for so long 0:03:37.280,0:03:41.200 and i've been starting to kind of branch 0:03:38.879,0:03:42.959 out to really kind of um 0:03:41.200,0:03:44.720 dive into some of these other e-commerce 0:03:42.959,0:03:46.480 platforms and communities and stuff and 0:03:44.720,0:03:49.040 it's interesting to see 0:03:46.480,0:03:49.599 um like the b2b thing was a huge 0:03:49.040,0:03:52.239 emphasis 0:03:49.599,0:03:54.319 for magento and i think that was their 0:03:52.239,0:03:55.040 kind of differentiation like okay yeah 0:03:54.319,0:03:57.760 shopify 0:03:55.040,0:03:59.519 you know has you know the the smb side 0:03:57.760,0:04:01.840 of the market you know that you know and 0:03:59.519,0:04:03.120 and a lot of the b2c even even mid 0:04:01.840,0:04:05.439 market it's like 0:04:03.120,0:04:06.640 give us b2b at least like let this be 0:04:05.439,0:04:09.120 our like big 0:04:06.640,0:04:10.879 and so it's interesting to see other um 0:04:09.120,0:04:12.959 platforms tackling that 0:04:10.879,0:04:14.799 and i'm super curious to to jump into 0:04:12.959,0:04:16.000 that on the cardhook thing i'm i'm 0:04:14.799,0:04:17.680 really interested so you were 0:04:16.000,0:04:19.519 in involved in that from the beginning 0:04:17.680,0:04:20.639 you were the the cto the technical 0:04:19.519,0:04:24.000 co-founder 0:04:20.639,0:04:24.960 yeah so um i had built and sold a 0:04:24.000,0:04:28.639 company 0:04:24.960,0:04:30.160 in b2b sas now it's like many moons ago 0:04:28.639,0:04:32.560 but it was like six years ago 0:04:30.160,0:04:34.080 and i was figuring out what was going on 0:04:32.560,0:04:35.199 even exist six years ago 0:04:34.080,0:04:38.479 [Laughter] 0:04:35.199,0:04:39.759 barely barely um 0:04:38.479,0:04:41.600 yeah well that's a whole other story 0:04:39.759,0:04:43.040 built like basically an only an early 0:04:41.600,0:04:45.040 version of only fans 0:04:43.040,0:04:46.080 uh we've been built running that company 0:04:45.040,0:04:47.360 for 10 years 0:04:46.080,0:04:49.280 and so it's been actually interesting 0:04:47.360,0:04:51.120 seeing patreon and only fans come in 0:04:49.280,0:04:55.040 because they've really added a lot of 0:04:51.120,0:04:58.400 we'll call it um legitimacy to 0:04:55.040,0:05:00.400 to the market um but yeah that's a whole 0:04:58.400,0:05:02.479 nother story 0:05:00.400,0:05:04.720 so i was a whole other episode on a 0:05:02.479,0:05:07.680 whole other podcast 0:05:04.720,0:05:08.400 yeah um and so i was actually some 0:05:07.680,0:05:10.960 friends and i 0:05:08.400,0:05:12.400 from new york we all had rented a house 0:05:10.960,0:05:13.039 some new yorkers we rented a house for 0:05:12.400,0:05:14.960 the winner 0:05:13.039,0:05:16.240 in on venice beach like so it's like 0:05:14.960,0:05:18.720 like five entrepreneurs 0:05:16.240,0:05:19.520 we're all technical kind of nerdy guys 0:05:18.720,0:05:21.280 we rented a 0:05:19.520,0:05:23.680 rented a house because it's freaking 0:05:21.280,0:05:26.160 cold in january and february 0:05:23.680,0:05:26.880 and we worked from there and around that 0:05:26.160,0:05:30.400 time i 0:05:26.880,0:05:32.400 jordan and i randomly i think crossed 0:05:30.400,0:05:33.600 paths by like he saw like an investor 0:05:32.400,0:05:35.360 deck that i had 0:05:33.600,0:05:37.199 posted online after we had sold the 0:05:35.360,0:05:38.720 business and he was looking for a 0:05:37.199,0:05:42.240 technical co-founder 0:05:38.720,0:05:43.600 uh he had built sort of like a card 0:05:42.240,0:05:45.280 abandonment product 0:05:43.600,0:05:47.120 based off of his experience as an 0:05:45.280,0:05:47.440 e-commerce merchant and i was figuring 0:05:47.120,0:05:48.560 out 0:05:47.440,0:05:49.759 what i wanted to work on next so 0:05:48.560,0:05:51.199 initially it was just like a social 0:05:49.759,0:05:54.720 conversation and then he was like 0:05:51.199,0:05:56.240 hey i'll fly down to la uh next week and 0:05:54.720,0:05:59.520 maybe we can talk in person 0:05:56.240,0:06:02.880 nice and so i was like i like this 0:05:59.520,0:06:04.479 this is good yeah and um you know so 0:06:02.880,0:06:06.720 from that point on that you know the 0:06:04.479,0:06:08.479 rest is as they say that say history 0:06:06.720,0:06:10.479 about nine months into that brand we 0:06:08.479,0:06:12.400 identified the opportunity 0:06:10.479,0:06:13.919 within the shopify space in part based 0:06:12.400,0:06:14.639 off of what we were seeing with our 0:06:13.919,0:06:17.919 first product 0:06:14.639,0:06:19.120 in cart abandonment and doubled down on 0:06:17.919,0:06:21.440 uh 0:06:19.120,0:06:22.720 on the shopify opportunity had raised a 0:06:21.440,0:06:23.600 little bit of money from friends and 0:06:22.720,0:06:27.919 family 0:06:23.600,0:06:30.880 um and yeah no it's yeah it's 0:06:27.919,0:06:32.639 it's a super successful uh product yeah 0:06:30.880,0:06:34.080 and so then you kind of decided 0:06:32.639,0:06:36.080 to about two years ago you kind of 0:06:34.080,0:06:37.680 wanted to build 0:06:36.080,0:06:41.199 something fresh like something 0:06:37.680,0:06:43.120 greenfield is that sort of the 0:06:41.199,0:06:44.960 yeah i mean i won't get i won't get into 0:06:43.120,0:06:47.120 the details of it but i'll say is that 0:06:44.960,0:06:48.000 um like things are all good between 0:06:47.120,0:06:51.360 jordan and i think whenever 0:06:48.000,0:06:53.680 you have two people building a business 0:06:51.360,0:06:55.759 and at the time it was because i was the 0:06:53.680,0:06:57.680 only person in new york and we 0:06:55.759,0:06:59.520 had intended to build a remote company 0:06:57.680,0:07:01.199 but it wasn't honestly remote we had an 0:06:59.520,0:07:03.759 office in portland oregon 0:07:01.199,0:07:05.199 where where jordan's based and then our 0:07:03.759,0:07:07.599 first engineer who 0:07:05.199,0:07:08.479 um we really built the team around he's 0:07:07.599,0:07:12.000 awesome uh 0:07:08.479,0:07:14.880 rock he's based in slovenia and so i was 0:07:12.000,0:07:16.160 the person in between portland oregon 0:07:14.880,0:07:19.199 and slovenia 0:07:16.160,0:07:20.479 and i would say that the transition 0:07:19.199,0:07:23.280 of just figuring out how to make 0:07:20.479,0:07:24.880 communication work um 0:07:23.280,0:07:26.479 you know there were a lot of things we 0:07:24.880,0:07:29.199 learned a lot i 0:07:26.479,0:07:30.160 i can't speak for for him but know i'm 0:07:29.199,0:07:31.599 still an owner of 0:07:30.160,0:07:33.360 of the kart hook business i'm still 0:07:31.599,0:07:35.440 involved jordan and i still talk 0:07:33.360,0:07:36.639 yeah not as much as as we used to but 0:07:35.440,0:07:39.680 you know we're still friends 0:07:36.639,0:07:42.000 yeah um and so thank you that's awesome 0:07:39.680,0:07:42.720 yeah we actually that's the saga yeah no 0:07:42.000,0:07:44.080 that makes sense 0:07:42.720,0:07:45.599 it's funny because on the podcast we 0:07:44.080,0:07:47.120 actually talked about how there was sort 0:07:45.599,0:07:49.520 of two different offices 0:07:47.120,0:07:51.360 and it was sort of remote-ish in that 0:07:49.520,0:07:53.360 sense but not really distributed 0:07:51.360,0:07:55.280 and that they recently have sort of gone 0:07:53.360,0:07:55.599 more fully distributed and stuff like 0:07:55.280,0:07:57.759 that 0:07:55.599,0:07:59.039 and and that transition is a tough 0:07:57.759,0:08:03.919 transition to make 0:07:59.039,0:08:05.840 um but uh yeah but but yeah it's uh 0:08:03.919,0:08:08.000 it's a huge success with that with that 0:08:05.840,0:08:12.560 product and um 0:08:08.000,0:08:15.599 so uh so b2b sas and and and b2b ecom 0:08:12.560,0:08:17.039 and wholesale uh in the shop so this is 0:08:15.599,0:08:19.039 news to me that like shot 0:08:17.039,0:08:21.440 is shop are people starting to tackle 0:08:19.039,0:08:22.160 this space in shopify 0:08:21.440,0:08:25.440 that's what i've been trying to 0:08:22.160,0:08:28.400 understand honestly i think 0:08:25.440,0:08:29.840 the i mean hey they they acquired 0:08:28.400,0:08:31.599 handshake for close to 0:08:29.840,0:08:33.440 from at least in the publications it 0:08:31.599,0:08:36.719 says about 100 million dollars 0:08:33.440,0:08:38.640 a couple years ago right and so 0:08:36.719,0:08:41.279 you know i've been trying to just orient 0:08:38.640,0:08:44.560 myself around 0:08:41.279,0:08:46.800 opportunities in wholesale in b2b it's 0:08:44.560,0:08:47.839 i looked at cbd i looked at high risk 0:08:46.800,0:08:49.200 payment processing i was 0:08:47.839,0:08:50.959 basically just looking at areas of 0:08:49.200,0:08:51.920 e-commerce that are not that not 0:08:50.959,0:08:54.480 everyone 0:08:51.920,0:08:55.120 and their mom is like trying to compete 0:08:54.480,0:08:57.040 over 0:08:55.120,0:08:58.399 i think unless you're going to raise a 0:08:57.040,0:09:01.839 bunch of money 0:08:58.399,0:09:03.680 it's you know it's a tough business and 0:09:01.839,0:09:05.120 you become competing on margins and it's 0:09:03.680,0:09:05.600 not one that i necessarily think that 0:09:05.120,0:09:07.440 i'm 0:09:05.600,0:09:09.120 best suited to start another company 0:09:07.440,0:09:10.080 around uh or want to 0:09:09.120,0:09:12.720 unless you're going to raise a bunch of 0:09:10.080,0:09:14.560 money which is not my intent so yeah 0:09:12.720,0:09:16.720 did you see that you mentioned payment 0:09:14.560,0:09:20.560 processing did you see the thing 0:09:16.720,0:09:22.720 with uh twilio recently like a b 0:09:20.560,0:09:24.880 tested stripe against a bunch of 0:09:22.720,0:09:28.480 different payment processors and saw 0:09:24.880,0:09:30.480 like a 10 lift in authorizations 0:09:28.480,0:09:31.760 um against all these other payment 0:09:30.480,0:09:34.000 processors 0:09:31.760,0:09:35.279 i thought it was i just saw it yeah 0:09:34.000,0:09:37.440 twilio did it 0:09:35.279,0:09:38.320 um and they saw this this pretty 0:09:37.440,0:09:41.279 significant 0:09:38.320,0:09:43.360 uh improvement in no as far as i 0:09:41.279,0:09:45.680 understand it's just straight up testing 0:09:43.360,0:09:47.440 the payment processor itself as far as 0:09:45.680,0:09:50.320 what it can authorize 0:09:47.440,0:09:52.080 um and i thought that was interesting um 0:09:50.320,0:09:54.160 i also was looking at one of the you you 0:09:52.080,0:09:56.880 read a lot of articles and you post them 0:09:54.160,0:09:57.920 yeah on your on your nuzzle right is 0:09:56.880,0:10:01.120 that the yeah 0:09:57.920,0:10:02.480 yeah yeah and um i was checking out some 0:10:01.120,0:10:04.399 of those and one of the articles was 0:10:02.480,0:10:08.000 initially talked about how you know 0:10:04.399,0:10:09.839 b2b customers want to pay on terms 0:10:08.000,0:10:11.600 right they might want to finance a 0:10:09.839,0:10:14.079 payment using their 0:10:11.600,0:10:15.120 inventory financing and things like that 0:10:14.079,0:10:18.000 so 0:10:15.120,0:10:20.560 that feels like um you know kind of a 0:10:18.000,0:10:24.959 problem to be solved you know 0:10:20.560,0:10:27.360 yeah and i think at least within b2b 0:10:24.959,0:10:28.480 it there's a bunch of different type of 0:10:27.360,0:10:30.880 b2b businesses 0:10:28.480,0:10:33.440 and so as with anything it's like how do 0:10:30.880,0:10:35.360 you eat or eat an elephant 0:10:33.440,0:10:36.560 it's like one bite at a time i honestly 0:10:35.360,0:10:37.760 i actually don't even know if that's the 0:10:36.560,0:10:38.160 expression it's probably something 0:10:37.760,0:10:39.680 around 0:10:38.160,0:10:41.040 something like that if you were to if 0:10:39.680,0:10:42.800 you were to eat an elephant it probably 0:10:41.040,0:10:44.880 should be one bite at a time regardless 0:10:42.800,0:10:46.720 of whether or not that's the expression 0:10:44.880,0:10:48.399 um but you have yeah you have like 0:10:46.720,0:10:51.680 financing terms there's net 0:10:48.399,0:10:53.200 f uh net 30 pay a half up front and so 0:10:51.680,0:10:56.560 it's actually not clear to me as 0:10:53.200,0:10:58.160 an engineer is exactly what 0:10:56.560,0:11:00.160 how people are using the shopify 0:10:58.160,0:11:04.240 platform for wholesale 0:11:00.160,0:11:05.519 um i've been going through compiling all 0:11:04.240,0:11:07.440 the different apps trying to 0:11:05.519,0:11:08.720 just understand and familiarize myself 0:11:07.440,0:11:11.120 with the 0:11:08.720,0:11:12.959 market you also have these marked actual 0:11:11.120,0:11:16.320 marketplaces like fair 0:11:12.959,0:11:19.360 um jeweler miracle 0:11:16.320,0:11:22.800 there's like the their product for 0:11:19.360,0:11:24.399 new order is another one uh which it was 0:11:22.800,0:11:24.720 interesting so because my girlfriend so 0:11:24.399,0:11:27.360 she 0:11:24.720,0:11:28.160 owns she's a home decor designer and 0:11:27.360,0:11:30.399 sells retail 0:11:28.160,0:11:32.079 and wholesale so i i will say i started 0:11:30.399,0:11:33.040 randomly dating the right person during 0:11:32.079,0:11:34.480 a pandemic 0:11:33.040,0:11:36.160 in part because like you're talking 0:11:34.480,0:11:38.399 about 0:11:36.160,0:11:39.839 i'm just yeah yeah i'm not doing market 0:11:38.399,0:11:42.000 research you're not part of a market 0:11:39.839,0:11:43.920 research opportunity i promise 0:11:42.000,0:11:45.680 right yeah no totally well then she's 0:11:43.920,0:11:46.079 like well can you make my facebook pixel 0:11:45.680,0:11:49.200 work 0:11:46.079,0:11:50.320 for for my instagrams i was like oh yes 0:11:49.200,0:11:52.720 i can do that 0:11:50.320,0:11:55.040 i was like i might not be handy at home 0:11:52.720,0:11:56.399 but i i can at least fix your tech and i 0:11:55.040,0:11:59.120 can get your your 0:11:56.399,0:12:00.720 your facebook pixel working right um but 0:11:59.120,0:12:01.760 no it's fascinating because you know 0:12:00.720,0:12:04.800 she's 0:12:01.760,0:12:07.040 she sells through like anthropology and 0:12:04.800,0:12:08.800 but also through her own site and her 0:12:07.040,0:12:10.240 site's on squarespace so she's selling 0:12:08.800,0:12:13.519 wholesale through squarespace 0:12:10.240,0:12:15.360 and i'm like i'm like wait what um but 0:12:13.519,0:12:16.639 i've i've since found several other 0:12:15.360,0:12:17.760 people who sell wholesale through 0:12:16.639,0:12:20.800 squarespace 0:12:17.760,0:12:22.000 and so it's just like with her she's a 0:12:20.800,0:12:26.079 designer so 0:12:22.000,0:12:28.240 we'll call it um the 0:12:26.079,0:12:29.920 ability to merchandise a cart really 0:12:28.240,0:12:31.519 matters a lot where it's not like you're 0:12:29.920,0:12:32.959 buying a bunch of line items 0:12:31.519,0:12:35.519 you really you're putting together a 0:12:32.959,0:12:37.760 season or a collection of products that 0:12:35.519,0:12:38.639 you really want to purchase together so 0:12:37.760,0:12:40.240 when you're working with like an 0:12:38.639,0:12:40.800 interior designer they're buying the 0:12:40.240,0:12:44.800 entire 0:12:40.800,0:12:46.560 ensemble not just uh a commodity so 0:12:44.800,0:12:48.320 what i've learned in wholesale is and 0:12:46.560,0:12:50.880 i'm still learning so much to learn 0:12:48.320,0:12:52.800 is that it really depends on the type of 0:12:50.880,0:12:53.440 wholesale business and like what you're 0:12:52.800,0:12:56.160 selling 0:12:53.440,0:12:58.240 is it mid-market or mid-tier is it 0:12:56.160,0:13:00.160 luxury with the price point 0:12:58.240,0:13:02.480 um because like there's certain things 0:13:00.160,0:13:03.360 like fair that from what i understand 0:13:02.480,0:13:06.800 really 0:13:03.360,0:13:08.720 they're geared towards lower price point 0:13:06.800,0:13:10.079 products so if you're a luxury product 0:13:08.720,0:13:12.079 you're probably not 0:13:10.079,0:13:13.440 from just a brand perspective going to 0:13:12.079,0:13:15.440 be on something like fair 0:13:13.440,0:13:16.720 so i could talk all day about this stuff 0:13:15.440,0:13:18.480 but it's 0:13:16.720,0:13:20.560 i'm trying to understand i'm trying to 0:13:18.480,0:13:22.959 educate myself yeah 0:13:20.560,0:13:23.839 the wholesale yeah yeah you're in that 0:13:22.959,0:13:27.040 building and 0:13:23.839,0:13:28.160 and uh market research phase um which is 0:13:27.040,0:13:31.839 a cool 0:13:28.160,0:13:32.240 cool phase um what would you say like to 0:13:31.839,0:13:34.320 answer 0:13:32.240,0:13:35.519 yeah yeah i was going to answer any 0:13:34.320,0:13:36.320 questions around like what i'm working 0:13:35.519,0:13:38.720 on 0:13:36.320,0:13:40.079 so i've i started off building a product 0:13:38.720,0:13:40.880 specifically for retailers because 0:13:40.079,0:13:44.240 that's what i know 0:13:40.880,0:13:45.920 and love and then i kept wholesaling one 0:13:44.240,0:13:47.040 of those retailers was like oh i'd love 0:13:45.920,0:13:48.880 this for my b2b 0:13:47.040,0:13:50.079 business and that's what got me looking 0:13:48.880,0:13:52.800 at shopify yeah 0:13:50.079,0:13:54.000 okay and so up until this point we've 0:13:52.800,0:13:55.839 basically been 0:13:54.000,0:13:56.880 trying to build as little as possible 0:13:55.839,0:13:58.800 and what we've been building could 0:13:56.880,0:14:01.199 potentially work for retail or 0:13:58.800,0:14:03.519 wholesale but i've gotten to that point 0:14:01.199,0:14:05.440 in the business where i'm like 0:14:03.519,0:14:06.959 i need to do a better job of identifying 0:14:05.440,0:14:08.639 what's the market segment 0:14:06.959,0:14:10.000 and the biggest thing for me is 0:14:08.639,0:14:10.560 understanding what's the segment of the 0:14:10.000,0:14:13.760 market 0:14:10.560,0:14:15.199 that does wholesale on shopify because 0:14:13.760,0:14:17.040 you know if we were to take this product 0:14:15.199,0:14:18.399 which i really i mean in terms of like 0:14:17.040,0:14:19.600 what are some of the variables to lock 0:14:18.399,0:14:21.040 in like i want to stay in shop the 0:14:19.600,0:14:22.240 shopify app ecosystem because i 0:14:21.040,0:14:25.839 understand it 0:14:22.240,0:14:27.600 um you know it's something that i'd say 0:14:25.839,0:14:29.199 like one of my unfair advantages just 0:14:27.600,0:14:30.560 because my experience and knowledge 0:14:29.199,0:14:33.199 around the apis 0:14:30.560,0:14:34.160 and just comfort level with how the tech 0:14:33.199,0:14:37.360 works 0:14:34.160,0:14:39.279 um but i need to make sure that it 0:14:37.360,0:14:42.839 aligns with is it is the 0:14:39.279,0:14:44.320 is the b2b segment a growing market in 0:14:42.839,0:14:46.560 shopify mm-hmm 0:14:44.320,0:14:47.680 so nice i don't think of any any 0:14:46.560,0:14:50.320 knowledge 0:14:47.680,0:14:52.480 no i mean i don't i'm trying to i'm kind 0:14:50.320,0:14:54.880 of i'm kind of curious i'm kind of an 0:14:52.480,0:14:55.760 observer of that you know this 0:14:54.880,0:14:57.600 phenomenon 0:14:55.760,0:14:59.680 and this trend in the market and i'm 0:14:57.600,0:15:02.720 trying to kind of wrap my 0:14:59.680,0:15:05.360 head around it as well i'm curious like 0:15:02.720,0:15:07.040 when you know they're selling b2b 0:15:05.360,0:15:08.480 through squarespace 0:15:07.040,0:15:10.160 because a lot of what i understand about 0:15:08.480,0:15:12.000 selling you know b2b and wholesale is 0:15:10.160,0:15:14.959 it's just all manual so it's just all 0:15:12.000,0:15:16.079 email and spreadsheets um so are they 0:15:14.959,0:15:18.800 essentially 0:15:16.079,0:15:20.399 you know using the website as like basic 0:15:18.800,0:15:24.079 lead generation 0:15:20.399,0:15:24.079 and then just doing everything manually 0:15:24.160,0:15:28.160 what's funny is i mean if you read the 0:15:25.600,0:15:28.720 marketing of any of these apps they they 0:15:28.160,0:15:31.040 all promise 0:15:28.720,0:15:32.560 they automate it for you so i think 0:15:31.040,0:15:33.040 you're right in terms of like from 0:15:32.560,0:15:34.800 everything 0:15:33.040,0:15:36.079 when i've dug in and for the merchants 0:15:34.800,0:15:37.199 i've spoken with around like 0:15:36.079,0:15:39.519 what are you spending your time and 0:15:37.199,0:15:42.000 money a lot of it's manual 0:15:39.519,0:15:43.279 exporting documents to interface with 0:15:42.000,0:15:46.560 quickbooks 0:15:43.279,0:15:51.279 you're dealing with um 0:15:46.560,0:15:51.279 yeah line sheets there's 0:15:52.880,0:15:56.480 as far as i can tell there is a lot of 0:15:54.399,0:15:58.480 manual labor except 0:15:56.480,0:15:59.839 but there's also a lot of apps that say 0:15:58.480,0:16:01.600 they they eliminate that 0:15:59.839,0:16:03.920 so i think it's one of those things 0:16:01.600,0:16:05.440 where my guess is that 0:16:03.920,0:16:07.040 there's a bunch of different products 0:16:05.440,0:16:10.240 that solve that try to be 0:16:07.040,0:16:12.639 fairly broad solutions um 0:16:10.240,0:16:14.399 and they all kind of accomplish some 0:16:12.639,0:16:17.040 things 0:16:14.399,0:16:18.320 yeah and do you want to um talk at all 0:16:17.040,0:16:22.240 about the product you're building 0:16:18.320,0:16:24.399 is it kind of in stealth mode or i mean 0:16:22.240,0:16:26.639 it's not really it's not in stealth mode 0:16:24.399,0:16:29.440 um 0:16:26.639,0:16:30.480 it's as i said part of the challenge has 0:16:29.440,0:16:33.040 been 0:16:30.480,0:16:34.399 clarifying the target audience so what i 0:16:33.040,0:16:34.720 can tell you and i think honestly 0:16:34.399,0:16:36.320 because 0:16:34.720,0:16:37.759 otherwise i'll just confuse people the 0:16:36.320,0:16:38.480 the simplest so it's like know your 0:16:37.759,0:16:40.160 audience 0:16:38.480,0:16:42.800 um the simplest thing i can say is i've 0:16:40.160,0:16:45.440 been exploring tools to improve 0:16:42.800,0:16:46.560 repeat purchase rates for existing 0:16:45.440,0:16:49.440 customers 0:16:46.560,0:16:50.079 so for example if you are selling 0:16:49.440,0:16:53.600 perishable 0:16:50.079,0:16:54.480 goods um and once you've acquired a 0:16:53.600,0:16:56.399 customer the 0:16:54.480,0:16:58.320 natural expectation is that you want to 0:16:56.399,0:17:00.639 then sell to them again 0:16:58.320,0:17:01.519 so how do you remove the friction of 0:17:00.639,0:17:02.800 that uh 0:17:01.519,0:17:05.120 oftentimes they're sending email 0:17:02.800,0:17:05.839 marketing and so one of our products has 0:17:05.120,0:17:08.720 been 0:17:05.839,0:17:09.760 to um or the products really was focused 0:17:08.720,0:17:12.720 on how to 0:17:09.760,0:17:13.439 effectively pre-building a merchandise 0:17:12.720,0:17:15.120 cart 0:17:13.439,0:17:16.839 and making it so you can buy it with a 0:17:15.120,0:17:19.439 click 0:17:16.839,0:17:20.079 um right so how do you eliminate the 0:17:19.439,0:17:23.600 friction 0:17:20.079,0:17:25.199 and make it make it easy to personalize 0:17:23.600,0:17:26.480 a product for someone who's previously 0:17:25.199,0:17:28.880 purchased from you 0:17:26.480,0:17:29.840 and then they can make some tweaks to 0:17:28.880,0:17:32.240 customize it 0:17:29.840,0:17:33.760 to exactly what they want and because 0:17:32.240,0:17:36.240 otherwise you'd be doing that through 0:17:33.760,0:17:37.760 email exchanges um and surprisingly a 0:17:36.240,0:17:38.240 lot of this is not stuff that you can do 0:17:37.760,0:17:41.360 on this 0:17:38.240,0:17:44.559 the actual native shopify platform 0:17:41.360,0:17:46.000 um right and so so this is different 0:17:44.559,0:17:48.480 than from your coupon 0:17:46.000,0:17:49.760 um coupon app that you're building for a 0:17:48.480,0:17:52.559 b testing coupons 0:17:49.760,0:17:53.520 oh yeah the the life of a self-funded 0:17:52.559,0:17:56.720 company 0:17:53.520,0:18:01.600 got a lot of items on the fire i 0:17:56.720,0:18:03.360 i have two irons i have the um 0:18:01.600,0:18:05.200 all of my consulting or the lesson since 0:18:03.360,0:18:08.080 leaving carthage and focused on 0:18:05.200,0:18:09.280 we're getting to know as an engineer 0:18:08.080,0:18:10.640 part of what i've learned is like doing 0:18:09.280,0:18:12.880 a better job of 0:18:10.640,0:18:15.360 seeing the world view of a merchant and 0:18:12.880,0:18:17.120 so my intent for doing the fractional 0:18:15.360,0:18:19.760 ctoing with brands was 0:18:17.120,0:18:21.280 on one hand yes cash flow but also to 0:18:19.760,0:18:24.640 just really have a better sense of 0:18:21.280,0:18:26.240 as a engineer who's working and building 0:18:24.640,0:18:28.160 tools for e-commerce brands like 0:18:26.240,0:18:30.080 what are the internal struggles and like 0:18:28.160,0:18:33.039 what's the world look like 0:18:30.080,0:18:34.160 from uh the perspective of these brands 0:18:33.039,0:18:36.320 and so 0:18:34.160,0:18:38.000 as i have tried to keep myself from 0:18:36.320,0:18:39.440 doing a lot of engineering myself 0:18:38.000,0:18:41.600 and so we got to a point where i needed 0:18:39.440,0:18:43.120 to hire an engineer and since 0:18:41.600,0:18:45.679 the revenue i'd say the revenue is 0:18:43.120,0:18:48.559 fairly negligible for this product 0:18:45.679,0:18:49.840 um what i've done is i have effectively 0:18:48.559,0:18:52.799 built like a boutique 0:18:49.840,0:18:53.760 shopify app agency and i'm building that 0:18:52.799,0:18:56.799 coupon app 0:18:53.760,0:18:58.320 for for for a company um and i'm 0:18:56.799,0:19:00.080 basically responsible for helping them 0:18:58.320,0:19:00.960 launch it and that's a way that i'm able 0:19:00.080,0:19:04.480 to 0:19:00.960,0:19:06.160 uh pay for for the for the engineering 0:19:04.480,0:19:07.600 that like the engineer that i have 0:19:06.160,0:19:10.000 gotcha that's awesome 0:19:07.600,0:19:11.200 yeah um yeah i've heard it's really like 0:19:10.000,0:19:12.720 you were talking about kind of the 0:19:11.200,0:19:14.160 unfair advantage you have around knowing 0:19:12.720,0:19:16.880 the apis 0:19:14.160,0:19:18.640 i've heard it's pretty hard to and i 0:19:16.880,0:19:21.280 recently helped somebody hire like a 0:19:18.640,0:19:23.600 like an app developer but like i've 0:19:21.280,0:19:26.720 heard it's pretty hard to find 0:19:23.600,0:19:28.880 developers that really know the api well 0:19:26.720,0:19:30.320 that like the api is great it's well 0:19:28.880,0:19:32.720 documented 0:19:30.320,0:19:34.320 um but that i don't know that there's a 0:19:32.720,0:19:37.760 lot of ins and outs to it there's 0:19:34.320,0:19:39.120 there's changes you got to keep up with 0:19:37.760,0:19:40.880 when you want to do a lot of heavy 0:19:39.120,0:19:42.480 lifting there's 0:19:40.880,0:19:44.720 you know complications and stuff like 0:19:42.480,0:19:44.720 that 0:19:45.360,0:19:49.039 yes yeah i would say yes to all of that 0:19:47.679,0:19:51.840 it it's 0:19:49.039,0:19:53.679 like a lot of things are let's call it 0:19:51.840,0:19:54.720 like simple things are fairly easy to 0:19:53.679,0:19:57.440 accomplish 0:19:54.720,0:19:58.400 where things get complicated or when you 0:19:57.440,0:20:00.160 start dealing 0:19:58.400,0:20:03.360 trying to tackle more complicated 0:20:00.160,0:20:06.960 problems um 0:20:03.360,0:20:08.559 and part of it depends on 0:20:06.960,0:20:09.840 the permissions available to you as an 0:20:08.559,0:20:11.440 app like now there's like four different 0:20:09.840,0:20:13.520 types of apps you can make custom maps 0:20:11.440,0:20:16.720 you can make private apps you can make 0:20:13.520,0:20:18.559 unlisted public apps um all of which 0:20:16.720,0:20:20.000 shopify has a policy around how much of 0:20:18.559,0:20:21.760 a rev share they'll take 0:20:20.000,0:20:24.000 which is considerable right even if 0:20:21.760,0:20:26.320 you're not in the app store 0:20:24.000,0:20:27.280 um and similar to apple although i just 0:20:26.320,0:20:28.799 read that apple 0:20:27.280,0:20:30.799 dropped their revenue they dropped their 0:20:28.799,0:20:32.840 rates right yeah yeah if you're making 0:20:30.799,0:20:35.919 less than a million dollars a year 0:20:32.840,0:20:37.120 um so but you know that's that's any 0:20:35.919,0:20:40.880 marketplace 0:20:37.120,0:20:40.880 um and so 0:20:41.360,0:20:46.720 the apis are fairly straightforward but 0:20:44.880,0:20:48.159 there's certain apis you can't use 0:20:46.720,0:20:49.840 right like there's certain apis you can 0:20:48.159,0:20:52.400 only use if 0:20:49.840,0:20:53.120 you have if the customer themselves has 0:20:52.400,0:20:55.440 is on like 0:20:53.120,0:20:57.440 plus another early example was you 0:20:55.440,0:21:00.799 couldn't do dynamic coupons 0:20:57.440,0:21:02.640 early on so if you were someone like 0:21:00.799,0:21:04.240 uh you know early for card abandonment 0:21:02.640,0:21:06.000 we couldn't generate like one-time 0:21:04.240,0:21:06.799 coupons for people because we didn't 0:21:06.000,0:21:08.799 have 0:21:06.799,0:21:09.840 like unless you were in plus but i think 0:21:08.799,0:21:12.159 clavio 0:21:09.840,0:21:13.520 was able to get permission to do it 0:21:12.159,0:21:15.200 because they were so big 0:21:13.520,0:21:17.520 so you know they're they're those types 0:21:15.200,0:21:19.280 of those things are challenging where 0:21:17.520,0:21:20.559 what's in the api docs isn't necessarily 0:21:19.280,0:21:23.919 what you can do 0:21:20.559,0:21:25.360 um right and there's certain things that 0:21:23.919,0:21:26.880 are just sales channels and then what 0:21:25.360,0:21:27.760 constitutes a sales channel well it 0:21:26.880,0:21:30.400 can't be on 0:21:27.760,0:21:32.480 a website it needs to be like through 0:21:30.400,0:21:35.840 like but you're buying through 0:21:32.480,0:21:37.600 uh a game and so it just it becomes a 0:21:35.840,0:21:40.080 little bit complicated anticipating 0:21:37.600,0:21:41.360 what are the issues it's i think of it 0:21:40.080,0:21:42.400 kind of like you're building on someone 0:21:41.360,0:21:44.960 else's house 0:21:42.400,0:21:46.799 yeah and you don't necessarily know what 0:21:44.960,0:21:49.120 their electrical looks like and 0:21:46.799,0:21:50.799 and like a socket could just disappear 0:21:49.120,0:21:53.200 um 0:21:50.799,0:21:54.240 yeah there's always that that platform 0:21:53.200,0:21:56.799 risk 0:21:54.240,0:21:57.440 um which like do you think about that 0:21:56.799,0:22:00.559 like do you 0:21:57.440,0:22:02.000 do you think that building a business on 0:22:00.559,0:22:05.440 top of another platform 0:22:02.000,0:22:06.880 is pretty risky i mean hey 0:22:05.440,0:22:08.640 there's pros and cons i think the 0:22:06.880,0:22:10.320 biggest risk in general is not building 0:22:08.640,0:22:13.039 something that customers care about 0:22:10.320,0:22:13.600 right and as an engineer i've spent a 0:22:13.039,0:22:17.280 long 0:22:13.600,0:22:20.720 period of my life doing that right um 0:22:17.280,0:22:23.360 i think the 0:22:20.720,0:22:24.320 and so for me as a as someone but i 0:22:23.360,0:22:25.760 think part of what's been 0:22:24.320,0:22:28.159 interesting to me and i mean you're an 0:22:25.760,0:22:30.559 engineer uh i'd be curious to hear 0:22:28.159,0:22:31.200 like how your perspective has evolved 0:22:30.559,0:22:32.480 but like 0:22:31.200,0:22:33.840 one of the things i realized and i'll 0:22:32.480,0:22:36.240 say part of the challenge that i even 0:22:33.840,0:22:38.240 ran up against in in part hook was i was 0:22:36.240,0:22:38.640 transitioning from being an engineer to 0:22:38.240,0:22:40.640 being 0:22:38.640,0:22:42.640 head of product because my background is 0:22:40.640,0:22:44.640 as a designer and a programmer i studied 0:22:42.640,0:22:46.240 english in college um but i've been a 0:22:44.640,0:22:46.720 programmer since since i was in fifth 0:22:46.240,0:22:48.240 grade 0:22:46.720,0:22:50.640 and i worked at a tech company during 0:22:48.240,0:22:53.440 the first.com boom so like i've just 0:22:50.640,0:22:55.280 always loved with computers and building 0:22:53.440,0:22:56.960 stuff and like shooting music videos and 0:22:55.280,0:23:01.039 using computers to be creative 0:22:56.960,0:23:04.320 yeah um i'm not 0:23:01.039,0:23:07.360 like the type of person who sits like 0:23:04.320,0:23:08.640 goes and you know majors necessarily in 0:23:07.360,0:23:11.280 computer science 0:23:08.640,0:23:12.000 um i've built several computers i i 0:23:11.280,0:23:13.919 really just love 0:23:12.000,0:23:15.360 making stuff and make solving problems 0:23:13.919,0:23:18.400 and so i think 0:23:15.360,0:23:20.080 the the challenge there is figuring out 0:23:18.400,0:23:22.320 like some people would call that a 0:23:20.080,0:23:24.960 product role um 0:23:22.320,0:23:26.559 some people would consider that a in 0:23:24.960,0:23:28.240 like an engineering role 0:23:26.559,0:23:29.600 um the truth is early on i would do the 0:23:28.240,0:23:30.320 designing i'd do the i'd do the 0:23:29.600,0:23:32.240 programming 0:23:30.320,0:23:33.760 and i would be also the business owner 0:23:32.240,0:23:35.200 and so for me it was super easy 0:23:33.760,0:23:37.039 especially when the technologies were 0:23:35.200,0:23:38.159 simpler to be able to have all those 0:23:37.039,0:23:39.760 hats 0:23:38.159,0:23:41.200 but i will say that like the 0:23:39.760,0:23:43.679 specialization that's 0:23:41.200,0:23:44.720 like you have to be fairly specialized 0:23:43.679,0:23:47.840 um just to like 0:23:44.720,0:23:48.640 stay up to date with how front end has 0:23:47.840,0:23:52.400 evolved 0:23:48.640,0:23:53.520 as well as back end and so i mean that 0:23:52.400,0:23:56.400 that's a 0:23:53.520,0:23:57.840 a bigger conversation um and i know you 0:23:56.400,0:23:59.279 recently had a conversation about 0:23:57.840,0:24:01.919 specialization and 0:23:59.279,0:24:03.200 in general generalization yeah yeah yeah 0:24:01.919,0:24:04.000 that's an issue i listened to fewer 0:24:03.200,0:24:06.480 episodes 0:24:04.000,0:24:07.440 to prepare for this nice man yeah or to 0:24:06.480,0:24:09.840 orient myself 0:24:07.440,0:24:11.360 yeah that's awesome man no it's uh it's 0:24:09.840,0:24:14.400 an interesting thing myself 0:24:11.360,0:24:16.080 like i um you know background as a 0:24:14.400,0:24:19.520 developer and then i started 0:24:16.080,0:24:21.840 building my own stuff and um you know 0:24:19.520,0:24:23.520 i learned a little bit of design and 0:24:21.840,0:24:24.880 then you kind of start using tailwind 0:24:23.520,0:24:28.240 and before you know it you know 0:24:24.880,0:24:32.080 stuff looks halfway decent and um 0:24:28.240,0:24:34.480 yeah like i think i'm i i'm good at um 0:24:32.080,0:24:35.440 kind of identifying the market need 0:24:34.480,0:24:37.360 building something 0:24:35.440,0:24:38.960 bringing all those skills together what 0:24:37.360,0:24:40.880 i'm not so good at 0:24:38.960,0:24:42.640 is then really like scaling the 0:24:40.880,0:24:44.400 technology like really focusing on the 0:24:42.640,0:24:47.120 technology it's like i have 0:24:44.400,0:24:48.799 enough of all of the skills to like get 0:24:47.120,0:24:51.600 something out the door 0:24:48.799,0:24:52.799 um but then i tend to stop really 0:24:51.600,0:24:55.600 iterating and 0:24:52.799,0:24:56.400 improving um the core product which you 0:24:55.600,0:25:00.080 gotta do 0:24:56.400,0:25:00.880 and uh you know i mean it's a tough 0:25:00.080,0:25:04.080 balance man 0:25:00.880,0:25:04.080 and you know i think 0:25:05.440,0:25:09.279 the the more i've learned and the more 0:25:06.880,0:25:09.279 i've done 0:25:10.720,0:25:16.320 it's it's gotten harder i think where 0:25:14.000,0:25:16.320 i've 0:25:17.840,0:25:20.799 especially i think it depends on 0:25:19.360,0:25:21.919 different learning styles and i imagine 0:25:20.799,0:25:24.799 especially if you're home so 0:25:21.919,0:25:26.400 homeschooling is it a daughter yeah we 0:25:24.799,0:25:29.039 have three we have three kids 0:25:26.400,0:25:30.400 two daughters oh my goodness okay yeah 0:25:29.039,0:25:33.039 no but i'm sure they all have different 0:25:30.400,0:25:35.200 learning styles 0:25:33.039,0:25:37.600 for me i'm very much a i'm a tactile 0:25:35.200,0:25:40.640 learner so like i learn by doing things 0:25:37.600,0:25:42.400 and so after having built like been 0:25:40.640,0:25:44.720 building products and stuff that weren't 0:25:42.400,0:25:46.000 like necessarily they were all there i'd 0:25:44.720,0:25:47.039 say admittedly i think most of the 0:25:46.000,0:25:49.520 products i've built 0:25:47.039,0:25:50.480 have been cool ideas um and they've been 0:25:49.520,0:25:52.559 useful and if you look through my 0:25:50.480,0:25:54.159 portfolio you'll like see 0:25:52.559,0:25:56.000 products i built just couldn't build 0:25:54.159,0:25:58.400 that wasn't necessarily a business 0:25:56.000,0:26:00.080 um they like scratched on old itch like 0:25:58.400,0:26:01.679 after college built an app to pre-buy 0:26:00.080,0:26:02.799 drinks in bulk from bars 0:26:01.679,0:26:04.960 this is around the same time that 0:26:02.799,0:26:05.679 groupon launched and i was like this is 0:26:04.960,0:26:07.120 just cool 0:26:05.679,0:26:09.279 and like i have a bunch of friends we're 0:26:07.120,0:26:12.559 all poor just graduated college 0:26:09.279,0:26:16.320 yeah um and so 0:26:12.559,0:26:18.559 the but to really get far in anything 0:26:16.320,0:26:19.360 you need to be able to be fast enough to 0:26:18.559,0:26:22.480 build 0:26:19.360,0:26:24.400 while also figuring out 0:26:22.480,0:26:25.520 what to build you need to be able to 0:26:24.400,0:26:26.799 build it and then and 0:26:25.520,0:26:28.880 and the context switching at least for 0:26:26.799,0:26:31.520 me is really challenging and 0:26:28.880,0:26:34.320 sometimes especially as an engineer like 0:26:31.520,0:26:36.320 i'm comfortable building stuff 0:26:34.320,0:26:37.840 but i know i especially haven't gone and 0:26:36.320,0:26:38.880 built several businesses at this point i 0:26:37.840,0:26:40.960 know that's 0:26:38.880,0:26:42.080 dangerous for me to get too involved in 0:26:40.960,0:26:43.440 the building because 0:26:42.080,0:26:45.120 at least there you can build clarity but 0:26:43.440,0:26:47.600 what i've also found is not 0:26:45.120,0:26:48.640 building is also really dangerous 0:26:47.600,0:26:50.720 because 0:26:48.640,0:26:51.840 you figure out a lot of the problems 0:26:50.720,0:26:53.200 yeah you 0:26:51.840,0:26:54.480 answer a lot of the questions building 0:26:53.200,0:26:55.440 stuff and thinking and working it 0:26:54.480,0:26:58.000 through and so 0:26:55.440,0:26:58.000 yeah um 0:26:59.360,0:27:03.360 trying to find some sort of balance 0:27:01.200,0:27:05.440 right is where i'm shaking out yeah 0:27:03.360,0:27:07.200 i've been i've been thinking a lot about 0:27:05.440,0:27:09.279 how to 0:27:07.200,0:27:10.880 identify like the thing that you 0:27:09.279,0:27:14.559 uniquely 0:27:10.880,0:27:16.159 are good at and love to do you know 0:27:14.559,0:27:18.240 and it's like i feel like i'll get 0:27:16.159,0:27:18.880 glimpses of it and i'll i'll move 0:27:18.240,0:27:20.559 towards it 0:27:18.880,0:27:22.880 and then i'll be like i don't know if 0:27:20.559,0:27:24.799 that's it um 0:27:22.880,0:27:26.720 and i think the the the people that 0:27:24.799,0:27:30.080 really take off i feel like they've 0:27:26.720,0:27:31.840 found that thing you know they found 0:27:30.080,0:27:33.919 that thing that they just love to do 0:27:31.840,0:27:36.240 and you know can just throw themselves 0:27:33.919,0:27:39.520 into it you know 0:27:36.240,0:27:41.600 well i think it's it's 0:27:39.520,0:27:43.039 part of the challenge there though is in 0:27:41.600,0:27:45.039 the 0:27:43.039,0:27:46.720 it depends on how you define that 0:27:45.039,0:27:47.279 success right is it commercial success 0:27:46.720,0:27:48.799 because 0:27:47.279,0:27:50.159 what matters is that the thing that you 0:27:48.799,0:27:51.120 care about or at least the thing that 0:27:50.159,0:27:52.640 you're making 0:27:51.120,0:27:54.559 whatever it is like you need to arrive 0:27:52.640,0:27:56.799 in a place where what you're making 0:27:54.559,0:27:58.640 also appeals to other people um and 0:27:56.799,0:27:59.679 that's in some ways like the difference 0:27:58.640,0:28:02.159 between art 0:27:59.679,0:28:03.600 and advertising uh like when i was 0:28:02.159,0:28:04.720 taking like when i was taking art 0:28:03.600,0:28:05.840 classes in college 0:28:04.720,0:28:07.120 there was always this like oh you're 0:28:05.840,0:28:09.360 working out you wanna you're in the 0:28:07.120,0:28:12.320 advertising program you're a sellout 0:28:09.360,0:28:13.520 um and you know it's the answer the 0:28:12.320,0:28:17.840 truth is somewhere in between 0:28:13.520,0:28:19.520 where you can't just make things 0:28:17.840,0:28:20.960 simply so they're a commercial success 0:28:19.520,0:28:24.880 on the flip side 0:28:20.960,0:28:27.279 um you know i think base camp is 0:28:24.880,0:28:28.480 has written enough about this yeah um 0:28:27.279,0:28:30.720 and actually so what i'm trying to do 0:28:28.480,0:28:33.279 these days is follow their shape up 0:28:30.720,0:28:34.480 process fairly fairly closely where nice 0:28:33.279,0:28:36.880 um it's 0:28:34.480,0:28:39.120 you know it it's not perfect it doesn't 0:28:36.880,0:28:41.840 work exactly with the way that i work 0:28:39.120,0:28:44.000 but it's at least provides a common 0:28:41.840,0:28:46.559 language to use with other engineers and 0:28:44.000,0:28:49.279 designers 0:28:46.559,0:28:51.840 that's really cool i've um i haven't 0:28:49.279,0:28:54.320 read the book but i've i've listened to 0:28:51.840,0:28:56.240 a couple mentions of it on podcasts and 0:28:54.320,0:28:58.799 i've seen some people talking about it 0:28:56.240,0:28:59.520 i feel like i get the the basic shape of 0:28:58.799,0:29:03.200 the 0:28:59.520,0:29:05.679 of the book um but um um 0:29:03.200,0:29:06.880 but uh but so what are some of the 0:29:05.679,0:29:08.799 aspects of that 0:29:06.880,0:29:12.320 kind of process for product development 0:29:08.799,0:29:14.399 that you're that you're using 0:29:12.320,0:29:16.240 well so and i think a lot of this comes 0:29:14.399,0:29:21.840 down to remote 0:29:16.240,0:29:23.760 which is the neat need to document stuff 0:29:21.840,0:29:25.760 which i would say is one of the 0:29:23.760,0:29:27.600 challenges i've experienced 0:29:25.760,0:29:28.799 with working with like in person 0:29:27.600,0:29:30.399 especially when you're combining in 0:29:28.799,0:29:32.559 person with remote 0:29:30.399,0:29:34.080 the amount of documentation that someone 0:29:32.559,0:29:36.320 who's remote needs 0:29:34.080,0:29:37.760 to be able to make sure that like 0:29:36.320,0:29:39.200 there's just a lot of documentation 0:29:37.760,0:29:40.000 because those are conversations you'd 0:29:39.200,0:29:42.399 otherwise be having 0:29:40.000,0:29:43.520 in person and in hallways and unless 0:29:42.399,0:29:45.360 it's documented 0:29:43.520,0:29:46.720 no one else is going to know about it 0:29:45.360,0:29:48.480 and so 0:29:46.720,0:29:49.760 for me what's been helpful about shape 0:29:48.480,0:29:51.760 up is 0:29:49.760,0:29:53.520 i've tried like a dozen variations of 0:29:51.760,0:29:54.559 different types of project specs and 0:29:53.520,0:29:56.720 scopes 0:29:54.559,0:29:58.159 um i took a course with heaton shaw that 0:29:56.720,0:30:00.159 he taught around like 0:29:58.159,0:30:01.840 how to do product manage like basically 0:30:00.159,0:30:03.440 how to like plan for product and put 0:30:01.840,0:30:04.399 together a product and build products so 0:30:03.440,0:30:06.080 you don't 0:30:04.399,0:30:08.880 how do you do like technical estimates 0:30:06.080,0:30:12.480 accurately um you don't 0:30:08.880,0:30:13.919 narrator you don't you don't right 0:30:12.480,0:30:15.520 well i i will say one of my biggest 0:30:13.919,0:30:16.640 takeaways though from even that course 0:30:15.520,0:30:20.080 was talking about like 0:30:16.640,0:30:21.840 if anyone as an engineer like do not ex 0:30:20.080,0:30:23.360 or let me ask someone who managed who 0:30:21.840,0:30:24.240 works with engineers and as an engineer 0:30:23.360,0:30:25.840 myself 0:30:24.240,0:30:27.600 it is unacceptable to hear that 0:30:25.840,0:30:29.360 something will take five days 0:30:27.600,0:30:31.360 if it's gonna take five days the scope 0:30:29.360,0:30:33.039 is not clear enough 0:30:31.360,0:30:34.399 i think and i i think you can make that 0:30:33.039,0:30:35.520 up you can make that argument 0:30:34.399,0:30:37.200 i mean i would even make that argument 0:30:35.520,0:30:39.440 if somebody's going to take more than 0:30:37.200,0:30:41.919 like four hours there's very few things 0:30:39.440,0:30:43.679 like you haven't defined it closely 0:30:41.919,0:30:46.559 enough totally and i think with shape 0:30:43.679,0:30:47.760 up what i appreciate about it um even 0:30:46.559,0:30:49.520 some of the feedback that i've gotten 0:30:47.760,0:30:51.600 from engineers that i've worked with is 0:30:49.520,0:30:53.279 they don't and i and that's like as an 0:30:51.600,0:30:54.559 engineer i try to put myself in there in 0:30:53.279,0:30:55.919 their shoes which is you don't want to 0:30:54.559,0:30:57.200 be micromanaged 0:30:55.919,0:30:59.200 right as soon as someone's feeling 0:30:57.200,0:31:00.799 micromanaged their brain shuts off 0:30:59.200,0:31:02.640 they're not thinking about how to solve 0:31:00.799,0:31:04.240 the problem they're thinking about 0:31:02.640,0:31:05.760 here are the 20 steps that i need to go 0:31:04.240,0:31:09.360 through and i think what shape 0:31:05.760,0:31:10.720 up advocates for is delegate 0:31:09.360,0:31:12.880 you know hey it's like delegating 0:31:10.720,0:31:14.320 responsibility for the the outcome 0:31:12.880,0:31:16.080 we need to define what's what's the 0:31:14.320,0:31:19.039 output and 0:31:16.080,0:31:20.559 how much effort is that output worth so 0:31:19.039,0:31:22.559 effectively it turns into a 0:31:20.559,0:31:24.080 we do not move deadlines we just change 0:31:22.559,0:31:26.000 scope and so 0:31:24.080,0:31:28.080 this is what the problem that should be 0:31:26.000,0:31:29.039 solved is and we have one week to solve 0:31:28.080,0:31:31.200 it 0:31:29.039,0:31:32.240 and as we're building it and working on 0:31:31.200,0:31:33.840 it there will be 0:31:32.240,0:31:36.080 bits and pieces of the scope that might 0:31:33.840,0:31:37.760 need to change but ultimately what 0:31:36.080,0:31:39.200 what you're responsible for is 0:31:37.760,0:31:42.000 delivering 0:31:39.200,0:31:42.799 solving the problem and then you as an 0:31:42.000,0:31:44.640 individual 0:31:42.799,0:31:46.559 can are allowed to create whatever 0:31:44.640,0:31:47.760 documentation you need for just yourself 0:31:46.559,0:31:50.480 and tasks 0:31:47.760,0:31:51.519 uh for yourself um i think that's where 0:31:50.480,0:31:53.360 i've gotten into a lot 0:31:51.519,0:31:55.360 like i like have i've had a virtual 0:31:53.360,0:31:57.440 assistant for eight years now 0:31:55.360,0:31:59.440 oh really i need to have a shared trello 0:31:57.440,0:32:00.799 board with like what is she working on 0:31:59.440,0:32:02.480 because otherwise i'll be thinking like 0:32:00.799,0:32:04.720 i don't 0:32:02.480,0:32:06.080 know like things cannot float in the 0:32:04.720,0:32:07.519 ether when you're working with a remote 0:32:06.080,0:32:08.960 team they have to be somewhere 0:32:07.519,0:32:10.080 so that you don't have to otherwise 0:32:08.960,0:32:10.640 you're going to be a pain in the ass 0:32:10.080,0:32:12.159 just like 0:32:10.640,0:32:14.080 following up with everyone asking how 0:32:12.159,0:32:16.159 are you done yet right 0:32:14.080,0:32:17.760 right that's interesting i've been i've 0:32:16.159,0:32:20.000 been going back and forth on the 0:32:17.760,0:32:22.159 on the virtual assistant thing recently 0:32:20.000,0:32:23.279 um is that has that worked out well for 0:32:22.159,0:32:24.240 you over the years i couldn't live 0:32:23.279,0:32:27.440 without without 0:32:24.240,0:32:28.640 without uh d her name's d um and yeah 0:32:27.440,0:32:29.679 we've worked together for eight years i 0:32:28.640,0:32:31.120 went to our wedding 0:32:29.679,0:32:32.240 uh i think that was the first time we 0:32:31.120,0:32:32.720 actually met in person was at her 0:32:32.240,0:32:34.720 wedding 0:32:32.720,0:32:36.000 that's kind of that's really cool nah 0:32:34.720,0:32:37.279 man like and i think 0:32:36.000,0:32:39.360 it's part of that's just my own 0:32:37.279,0:32:43.360 personality i've eaten the same thing 0:32:39.360,0:32:46.159 every day for the last like nine years 0:32:43.360,0:32:47.279 i hire experts to like optimize around 0:32:46.159,0:32:51.519 things that i hate 0:32:47.279,0:32:53.679 yeah and luckily one of my superpowers 0:32:51.519,0:32:55.679 is that like most habits like i can 0:32:53.679,0:32:57.039 as long as i can change my habits like i 0:32:55.679,0:32:59.360 can do more or less anything 0:32:57.039,0:33:00.880 i don't care about like new and exciting 0:32:59.360,0:33:02.880 foods i love 0:33:00.880,0:33:04.240 i love eating the same thing every day 0:33:02.880,0:33:04.960 dude i have so then it becomes a 0:33:04.240,0:33:06.240 question of well 0:33:04.960,0:33:08.080 pick the right thing so that you don't 0:33:06.240,0:33:09.120 have fat or like so you can like hit 0:33:08.080,0:33:10.880 your fitness goals 0:33:09.120,0:33:12.320 sorry what you're gonna say dude i have 0:33:10.880,0:33:14.480 been on this 0:33:12.320,0:33:16.240 i've been i eat basically the same thing 0:33:14.480,0:33:18.399 now for like a few months 0:33:16.240,0:33:20.080 i was doing chipotle for a while i was 0:33:18.399,0:33:21.679 on the chipotle diet 0:33:20.080,0:33:23.200 and then i was like i gotta bring this 0:33:21.679,0:33:26.080 in-house and i basically 0:33:23.200,0:33:27.279 chicken breast beans and and like green 0:33:26.080,0:33:29.679 beans 0:33:27.279,0:33:31.679 and i recently started doing one meal a 0:33:29.679,0:33:33.919 day i was skipping breakfast 0:33:31.679,0:33:35.519 and i and i plateaued and i was i gotta 0:33:33.919,0:33:38.720 skip dinner too 0:33:35.519,0:33:41.519 so i've been doing one meal and uh 0:33:38.720,0:33:43.120 it's interesting fasting yeah it is 0:33:41.519,0:33:46.559 fantastic yeah 0:33:43.120,0:33:48.799 so you're um your uh your twitter 0:33:46.559,0:33:49.919 your branding is skinny and bald but you 0:33:48.799,0:33:51.840 seem like you're in pretty good 0:33:49.919,0:33:54.559 are you pretty into like okay we got the 0:33:51.840,0:33:57.279 bald capota i'm i'm bald yeah uh i was 0:33:54.559,0:33:58.640 also 24 when i came up with it and i was 0:33:57.279,0:34:01.279 definitely skinnier 0:33:58.640,0:34:02.559 and then you stuck and i worked yeah i 0:34:01.279,0:34:04.000 was a i was a freelance 0:34:02.559,0:34:06.399 art director and programmer i was a 0:34:04.000,0:34:08.159 flash developer and so i was working 0:34:06.399,0:34:09.520 with brands and i basically needed a 0:34:08.159,0:34:12.079 memorable website 0:34:09.520,0:34:12.639 and so i was like what's something fun 0:34:12.079,0:34:14.480 that 0:34:12.639,0:34:16.159 you know someone looks at me and over 0:34:14.480,0:34:17.520 time it could become ironic 0:34:16.159,0:34:20.320 like you know hopefully i won't be fat 0:34:17.520,0:34:20.320 and hairy someday 0:34:25.200,0:34:28.480 no so that was like skinny involved was 0:34:27.599,0:34:30.879 was 0:34:28.480,0:34:32.639 people can spell it it's fun and it and 0:34:30.879,0:34:34.960 also i think it captures my personality 0:34:32.639,0:34:35.440 which is like i'm kind of skinny kind of 0:34:34.960,0:34:38.000 bald 0:34:35.440,0:34:39.679 right guys yeah but yes you're right 0:34:38.000,0:34:40.159 like i'm definitely more i'm definitely 0:34:39.679,0:34:42.159 bald 0:34:40.159,0:34:43.599 skewing more towards bald these days 0:34:42.159,0:34:45.760 right um 0:34:43.599,0:34:48.560 so you work out you work out a good bit 0:34:45.760,0:34:50.480 and lift weights and stuff uh well i 0:34:48.560,0:34:53.760 mean kovid made that really complicated 0:34:50.480,0:34:54.159 right right um and so i gave i gained 0:34:53.760,0:34:55.919 some 0:34:54.159,0:34:57.920 some some weight from that and so i've 0:34:55.919,0:35:00.720 been getting back into shape and 0:34:57.920,0:35:02.160 uh yeah so it's i would say i do the 0:35:00.720,0:35:03.680 least amount for 0:35:02.160,0:35:05.359 fitness like i basically have these like 0:35:03.680,0:35:06.079 habits that are really important to me 0:35:05.359,0:35:09.520 around 0:35:06.079,0:35:10.160 nutrition only because i care about like 0:35:09.520,0:35:12.240 survive like 0:35:10.160,0:35:13.280 i want to live um and i want to be in 0:35:12.240,0:35:15.680 the best shape 0:35:13.280,0:35:17.119 that i can be because quality of life 0:35:15.680,0:35:18.320 and i don't want to think about it 0:35:17.119,0:35:20.079 beyond like basically i want 0:35:18.320,0:35:22.240 i want a regimen i want to follow it and 0:35:20.079,0:35:25.520 then i'll use all my brain power to 0:35:22.240,0:35:28.160 to deal with all the crazy business con 0:35:25.520,0:35:29.599 and like product stuff that comes up 0:35:28.160,0:35:32.880 that's my own personal 0:35:29.599,0:35:35.040 inclination i love that yeah i'm i'm 0:35:32.880,0:35:36.320 i'm kind of similar it's a little harder 0:35:35.040,0:35:36.800 when you've got a bunch of kids because 0:35:36.320,0:35:39.440 they 0:35:36.800,0:35:41.119 mess up your life schedule and and 0:35:39.440,0:35:42.720 everything and when it comes to food 0:35:41.119,0:35:44.880 like there's always like 0:35:42.720,0:35:46.240 snacks in the kitchen and stuff and then 0:35:44.880,0:35:48.160 i'm telling my wife i'm like we gotta 0:35:46.240,0:35:51.119 get less snacks you know and 0:35:48.160,0:35:51.839 yeah so it's a little trickier but um 0:35:51.119,0:35:54.400 yeah i'm 0:35:51.839,0:35:56.240 uh i'm similar i watched this video 0:35:54.400,0:35:59.040 recently of this guy 0:35:56.240,0:36:00.400 um like this minimalist guy on youtube 0:35:59.040,0:36:03.520 that like wears the same 0:36:00.400,0:36:04.160 shirt every day um and he has this whole 0:36:03.520,0:36:06.000 video 0:36:04.160,0:36:07.359 on wearing the same shirt every day for 0:36:06.000,0:36:09.599 three years 0:36:07.359,0:36:11.200 and uh i was like that's a great idea i 0:36:09.599,0:36:12.720 gotta try that out yeah 0:36:11.200,0:36:15.040 i do that like if i were to open this 0:36:12.720,0:36:16.640 behind me i have i i have a spreadsheet 0:36:15.040,0:36:17.839 of all the clothes that i just buy again 0:36:16.640,0:36:20.000 yeah no i'm dead serious 0:36:17.839,0:36:21.359 i buy the same shoes again i buy the 0:36:20.000,0:36:24.880 same pants 0:36:21.359,0:36:28.800 that's awesome that's awesome 0:36:24.880,0:36:29.839 i mean it's but to your point it's 0:36:28.800,0:36:31.440 harder when 0:36:29.839,0:36:33.839 it's not just about your life anymore 0:36:31.440,0:36:35.680 right like you're you have a family 0:36:33.839,0:36:37.680 um for me it's like my girlfriend would 0:36:35.680,0:36:40.320 murder me if i ate the same 0:36:37.680,0:36:40.960 literally the same thing every night um 0:36:40.320,0:36:44.480 right so 0:36:40.960,0:36:46.560 i think that's part of growing up too is 0:36:44.480,0:36:48.000 finding that balance that happy balance 0:36:46.560,0:36:50.800 yeah yeah 0:36:48.000,0:36:51.599 what are um what are some other like 0:36:50.800,0:36:54.079 habits 0:36:51.599,0:36:56.800 or like what does your schedule look 0:36:54.079,0:37:00.160 like to help you get into like a good 0:36:56.800,0:37:02.880 creative flow state stuff like that 0:37:00.160,0:37:04.480 i live by my calendar um and i have like 0:37:02.880,0:37:06.400 i've had a process that i've 0:37:04.480,0:37:08.000 naturally followed probably for the last 0:37:06.400,0:37:10.480 10 years 0:37:08.000,0:37:11.200 uh i wrote a i actually wrote a script 0:37:10.480,0:37:13.040 that 0:37:11.200,0:37:15.200 scrapes my calendar at three in the 0:37:13.040,0:37:16.960 morning every night creates a new trello 0:37:15.200,0:37:18.640 board of everything that i have for 0:37:16.960,0:37:20.320 meetings and calls that are listed so 0:37:18.640,0:37:22.880 when i wake up i have a to-do list 0:37:20.320,0:37:23.760 for today that's a combination of my 0:37:22.880,0:37:25.839 calendar 0:37:23.760,0:37:27.440 as of events that are in like other 0:37:25.839,0:37:28.960 things that i've i've put in 0:37:27.440,0:37:30.480 and then every time i do something i 0:37:28.960,0:37:32.480 move it to the done list 0:37:30.480,0:37:33.680 and i have like my own vocabulary of 0:37:32.480,0:37:36.160 like m is a meeting 0:37:33.680,0:37:38.560 c is a call it takes all the calendar 0:37:36.160,0:37:41.200 details and puts it onto the trello 0:37:38.560,0:37:42.880 card itself and this is something that 0:37:41.200,0:37:44.240 and every week i review all of the 0:37:42.880,0:37:46.640 things that i've completed 0:37:44.240,0:37:48.720 in the like the cards of trello for that 0:37:46.640,0:37:52.079 week and then i archive them 0:37:48.720,0:37:54.160 um and so i would it's not that i'm 0:37:52.079,0:37:56.880 regimented it's just that 0:37:54.160,0:37:58.640 i try to be really mindful around 0:37:56.880,0:38:01.920 budgeting my time 0:37:58.640,0:38:05.280 um and so for me 0:38:01.920,0:38:07.599 in it the intent there is to make to not 0:38:05.280,0:38:09.359 always be busy 0:38:07.599,0:38:10.960 and to make sure especially as an 0:38:09.359,0:38:13.040 engineer i can get sucked into something 0:38:10.960,0:38:14.800 next thing you know i've spent an entire 0:38:13.040,0:38:16.160 like day on something that ultimately 0:38:14.800,0:38:17.359 didn't really matter 0:38:16.160,0:38:19.280 and so i've just tried to get better 0:38:17.359,0:38:20.320 around pro being proactive instead of 0:38:19.280,0:38:22.240 reactive 0:38:20.320,0:38:24.320 and so my calendar it drives a lot of my 0:38:22.240,0:38:25.920 friends um 0:38:24.320,0:38:27.920 my girlfriend crazy around i'm like oh 0:38:25.920,0:38:29.200 you want to do something please send me 0:38:27.920,0:38:30.880 a calendar invite 0:38:29.200,0:38:32.960 and it's not intended to be dismissive 0:38:30.880,0:38:36.240 it's just it's my process 0:38:32.960,0:38:38.160 for being able to like make to be able 0:38:36.240,0:38:40.240 to focus on what's in front of me 0:38:38.160,0:38:41.680 yeah um yeah and so yeah but like 0:38:40.240,0:38:42.880 writing a script that does it myself i'm 0:38:41.680,0:38:43.760 not sure if that would be useful for 0:38:42.880,0:38:45.280 anyone else 0:38:43.760,0:38:46.880 i've thought about like trying to 0:38:45.280,0:38:48.640 productize that into a business 0:38:46.880,0:38:50.400 but right the more i talk to my friends 0:38:48.640,0:38:52.240 they're all like a lot of it's 0:38:50.400,0:38:54.160 oh i wish i could follow a schedule like 0:38:52.240,0:38:57.520 you do right but i can't 0:38:54.160,0:38:59.839 or i don't want to right um yeah 0:38:57.520,0:39:01.680 what about you i've gone in and out of 0:38:59.839,0:39:03.599 phases of being real like 0:39:01.680,0:39:06.720 schedule oriented i'm i've been starting 0:39:03.599,0:39:09.040 to skew again more scheduled recently 0:39:06.720,0:39:10.880 and my wife always makes fun of me 0:39:09.040,0:39:13.920 because when we were dating in college 0:39:10.880,0:39:16.320 i was real scheduled i had a schedule it 0:39:13.920,0:39:17.359 was blocked out each day was blocked out 0:39:16.320,0:39:20.480 studying time 0:39:17.359,0:39:23.200 math time friends time all that kind of 0:39:20.480,0:39:24.640 stuff yeah and i had it up on my wall 0:39:23.200,0:39:26.400 and so she would be like hey do you want 0:39:24.640,0:39:28.400 to hang out i'd be like no i can't you 0:39:26.400,0:39:30.480 know this is my whatever time or this is 0:39:28.400,0:39:31.359 my time to hang out with guys or when it 0:39:30.480,0:39:33.359 was like 0:39:31.359,0:39:35.599 it was real intense and it drove her 0:39:33.359,0:39:37.520 nuts you know 0:39:35.599,0:39:39.440 well and i i think but i think it's it's 0:39:37.520,0:39:40.800 important because otherwise we all have 0:39:39.440,0:39:44.000 24 hours a day 0:39:40.800,0:39:45.839 and yeah it's really easy for other 0:39:44.000,0:39:47.680 things or situations and people to 0:39:45.839,0:39:49.280 define your priorities and i think 0:39:47.680,0:39:50.720 and i will say going back to your 0:39:49.280,0:39:52.400 examples of 0:39:50.720,0:39:54.640 people who have been like we'll call it 0:39:52.400,0:39:57.280 disproportionately successful 0:39:54.640,0:39:58.720 um like the the elon musks or the jeff 0:39:57.280,0:39:59.280 bezos or i mean there's a lot more 0:39:58.720,0:40:01.760 examples 0:39:59.280,0:40:03.200 than just the folks we we talk about but 0:40:01.760,0:40:04.319 i'd say a lot of them have been very 0:40:03.200,0:40:07.359 intentional 0:40:04.319,0:40:08.079 i would assume people i know like from 0:40:07.359,0:40:10.240 my what i 0:40:08.079,0:40:11.200 from what i have observed and from what 0:40:10.240,0:40:12.640 i know 0:40:11.200,0:40:14.319 these people are very intentional with 0:40:12.640,0:40:17.040 their time um 0:40:14.319,0:40:17.680 whether that's prioritizing social 0:40:17.040,0:40:20.880 events or 0:40:17.680,0:40:23.200 or not prioritizing social events 0:40:20.880,0:40:25.280 um all these people have been really 0:40:23.200,0:40:28.160 good around to building infrastructure 0:40:25.280,0:40:29.440 that allows them to focus on what they 0:40:28.160,0:40:32.960 want to work on 0:40:29.440,0:40:34.960 while also not being spread too thin 0:40:32.960,0:40:36.560 yeah right like not letting and that's 0:40:34.960,0:40:39.920 that becomes the risk of trying to 0:40:36.560,0:40:41.280 to to do a lot of things is if you have 0:40:39.920,0:40:43.119 if you're running a bunch of businesses 0:40:41.280,0:40:44.240 and you're not really regimented 0:40:43.119,0:40:46.560 um you're not going to accomplish 0:40:44.240,0:40:49.520 anything yeah which is 0:40:46.560,0:40:50.640 so having a calendar and having some 0:40:49.520,0:40:52.400 process where 0:40:50.640,0:40:54.160 when when a fire comes up which 0:40:52.400,0:40:57.520 inevitably it will you need to have 0:40:54.160,0:40:59.599 pre-established some rules and like 0:40:57.520,0:41:00.880 procedures around if this comes up i'm 0:40:59.599,0:41:02.720 going to ignore it because this 0:41:00.880,0:41:04.480 i've already decided how i'm going to 0:41:02.720,0:41:06.160 deal with situations like this 0:41:04.480,0:41:07.520 maybe sometimes the solution is to hire 0:41:06.160,0:41:10.640 someone who's responsible for it 0:41:07.520,0:41:13.119 yeah which is what i like to do 0:41:10.640,0:41:15.359 yeah what are um what are some of the 0:41:13.119,0:41:16.720 other uh you mentioned virtual assistant 0:41:15.359,0:41:17.680 but what are some of the other roles 0:41:16.720,0:41:19.280 that you've 0:41:17.680,0:41:20.880 that you've hired recently and that have 0:41:19.280,0:41:24.240 been i had to cook for a while 0:41:20.880,0:41:27.760 oh yeah yeah she would measure my food 0:41:24.240,0:41:30.400 um she yeah like i felt like 0:41:27.760,0:41:31.280 i i'm really i don't know how to cook um 0:41:30.400,0:41:32.640 it's embarrassing 0:41:31.280,0:41:34.480 and it's not something i like to invest 0:41:32.640,0:41:35.920 a lot of time into um 0:41:34.480,0:41:38.079 it seems like a whole lot of time and 0:41:35.920,0:41:38.800 all i want i like i eat to live i don't 0:41:38.079,0:41:41.599 live to eat 0:41:38.800,0:41:42.560 yeah and so i would i basically gave her 0:41:41.599,0:41:44.800 the macros 0:41:42.560,0:41:46.720 and i asked her to create some recipes 0:41:44.800,0:41:48.560 that would fit my macros 0:41:46.720,0:41:49.760 and i really love mexican food and so 0:41:48.560,0:41:51.520 she made me like 0:41:49.760,0:41:53.440 amazing like basically it was like 0:41:51.520,0:41:56.240 really good chipotle except it was like 0:41:53.440,0:41:58.160 natural like super fresh yeah and it 0:41:56.240,0:41:59.119 matched exactly and then if i wasn't 0:41:58.160,0:42:00.720 making progress 0:41:59.119,0:42:02.480 i could ask her hey try to reduce the 0:42:00.720,0:42:03.280 carbs because like i wasn't like losing 0:42:02.480,0:42:05.599 weight or something 0:42:03.280,0:42:06.640 yeah that's um and that was really cool 0:42:05.599,0:42:08.720 and she would just show up 0:42:06.640,0:42:10.880 she'd cook it while i was at the office 0:42:08.720,0:42:11.920 i'd come home and i would cook for like 0:42:10.880,0:42:14.960 a week of food 0:42:11.920,0:42:16.560 i'd come home and i'd have it um and so 0:42:14.960,0:42:20.000 that was great 0:42:16.560,0:42:22.560 it uh that was a really powerful one 0:42:20.000,0:42:23.839 now it's me clicking reorder on seamless 0:42:22.560,0:42:25.839 from uh 0:42:23.839,0:42:26.960 from a place that sells an amazing 0:42:25.839,0:42:30.160 shawarma bowl 0:42:26.960,0:42:33.280 yeah with double chicken nice um 0:42:30.160,0:42:35.440 i i would say i spent a lot on software 0:42:33.280,0:42:36.480 yeah to the point where a lot of my 0:42:35.440,0:42:38.480 friends who are also 0:42:36.480,0:42:39.920 tech nerds are like why do you spend so 0:42:38.480,0:42:42.480 much on 0:42:39.920,0:42:44.400 like i use calendly i use zoom if 0:42:42.480,0:42:47.119 anything can save me time 0:42:44.400,0:42:48.720 and if i think that it say heart saves 0:42:47.119,0:42:51.359 me time every single day 0:42:48.720,0:42:52.079 i will invest in it um i have a new i 0:42:51.359,0:42:56.720 have a 0:42:52.079,0:42:58.720 personal trainer who's virtual um 0:42:56.720,0:43:00.720 like i'm a huge fan of these 0:42:58.720,0:43:01.920 subscription services that are around 0:43:00.720,0:43:03.760 like 0:43:01.920,0:43:05.200 i really think of it as coaches though 0:43:03.760,0:43:06.480 they're they're 0:43:05.200,0:43:08.480 like one of the first things i did after 0:43:06.480,0:43:10.079 i left cardhook was i hired an engineer 0:43:08.480,0:43:12.160 to brush me up on programming i 0:43:10.079,0:43:14.800 basically hired a programming tutor um 0:43:12.160,0:43:16.640 because i was like i have not coded 0:43:14.800,0:43:18.319 like i've mostly been managing i've been 0:43:16.640,0:43:19.920 doing design and not only that i was 0:43:18.319,0:43:22.960 like i just want to get better 0:43:19.920,0:43:24.880 i always want to get better and so uh 0:43:22.960,0:43:26.640 i rather than hiring someone to build a 0:43:24.880,0:43:28.240 product for me i hired a really smart 0:43:26.640,0:43:30.079 engineer who i had 0:43:28.240,0:43:31.839 hired before like years ago and i was 0:43:30.079,0:43:34.240 like i will pay you to do like 0:43:31.839,0:43:35.839 pull requests and to give me to like 0:43:34.240,0:43:36.319 basically tell me everything i'm doing 0:43:35.839,0:43:39.119 wrong 0:43:36.319,0:43:40.960 and bring me up to speed on how like php 0:43:39.119,0:43:43.040 and laravel have changed since i last 0:43:40.960,0:43:46.640 was like programming day-to-day 0:43:43.040,0:43:49.920 um right that's super cool man what's um 0:43:46.640,0:43:52.800 investing in coaches yeah like again 0:43:49.920,0:43:54.720 that's awesome what uh what um what are 0:43:52.800,0:43:56.319 you doing development-wise these days 0:43:54.720,0:43:58.079 why are you using laravel you mentioned 0:43:56.319,0:43:59.440 larry i'm a big lyrical guy myself 0:43:58.079,0:44:01.440 actually 0:43:59.440,0:44:03.200 really yeah yeah yeah is that your 0:44:01.440,0:44:04.400 primary weapon of choice these days 0:44:03.200,0:44:06.240 although i think i noticed that when i 0:44:04.400,0:44:07.920 signed up for your your site 0:44:06.240,0:44:10.000 i noticed it was like laravel 0:44:07.920,0:44:12.640 scaffolding 0:44:10.000,0:44:13.280 yeah i did yes i just remember that 0:44:12.640,0:44:15.280 right now 0:44:13.280,0:44:17.680 yeah yeah man i mean so going back to 0:44:15.280,0:44:19.760 what we were talking about around like 0:44:17.680,0:44:22.000 i studied english in college i'm an 0:44:19.760,0:44:24.400 engineer i love building stuff 0:44:22.000,0:44:26.160 i do not want to optimize everything 0:44:24.400,0:44:27.040 what i care about most is i want a few 0:44:26.160,0:44:30.480 tools that i 0:44:27.040,0:44:32.079 that i'm really confident that i can 0:44:30.480,0:44:33.520 that like i'm experienced with and that 0:44:32.079,0:44:35.280 i can use them to 0:44:33.520,0:44:36.480 to build a product and to build a 0:44:35.280,0:44:37.280 scalable product so i've been doing a 0:44:36.480,0:44:39.040 lot with 0:44:37.280,0:44:41.599 laravel vapor which is serverless 0:44:39.040,0:44:45.359 laravel um 0:44:41.599,0:44:47.680 the i have a very narrow stack 0:44:45.359,0:44:49.200 which if you talk to some engineers they 0:44:47.680,0:44:50.880 would basically say that what i'm doing 0:44:49.200,0:44:53.119 what i'm advocating for is 0:44:50.880,0:44:54.400 is stupid um which i'm okay with i don't 0:44:53.119,0:44:56.160 care which is true because 0:44:54.400,0:44:57.839 basically everything somebody's gonna 0:44:56.160,0:44:59.680 tell you it's stupid 0:44:57.839,0:45:01.040 yeah yeah and they're probably even 0:44:59.680,0:45:02.400 better engineers than me like but the 0:45:01.040,0:45:03.839 issue is like it's about like what are 0:45:02.400,0:45:05.119 you trying to do and what i'm trying to 0:45:03.839,0:45:06.480 solve for is not necessarily trying to 0:45:05.119,0:45:07.280 choose the best language for the 0:45:06.480,0:45:09.040 situation 0:45:07.280,0:45:10.480 the truth is that most languages and 0:45:09.040,0:45:12.400 frameworks you can 0:45:10.480,0:45:15.119 if you're good at it like you can build 0:45:12.400,0:45:17.359 anything yeah what i care about most 0:45:15.119,0:45:18.400 is familiarity with the different tools 0:45:17.359,0:45:20.000 and bottlenecks 0:45:18.400,0:45:21.520 so that when i'm building something or 0:45:20.000,0:45:22.000 if i'm hiring an engineer to work with 0:45:21.520,0:45:24.319 me 0:45:22.000,0:45:25.839 we can immediately work in the shared 0:45:24.319,0:45:26.160 framework that i'm comfortable with and 0:45:25.839,0:45:27.920 i 0:45:26.160,0:45:29.920 understand like cardhook is built in 0:45:27.920,0:45:32.400 laravel 0:45:29.920,0:45:34.400 and so every product i work on now it's 0:45:32.400,0:45:36.800 not like 0:45:34.400,0:45:38.160 cart that experience with cardhook and 0:45:36.800,0:45:39.440 laravel was extremely extremely 0:45:38.160,0:45:41.119 important for me 0:45:39.440,0:45:43.200 um in part because of all the 0:45:41.119,0:45:45.119 experiences we had around scaling it 0:45:43.200,0:45:46.880 and so i can now go into laravel 0:45:45.119,0:45:47.839 projects and i you know i don't 0:45:46.880,0:45:49.680 i don't necessarily know how we're going 0:45:47.839,0:45:51.280 to solve everything but i'm confident 0:45:49.680,0:45:53.280 that we can figure out and that there's 0:45:51.280,0:45:54.720 i've probably seen a variation of that 0:45:53.280,0:45:59.119 problem before 0:45:54.720,0:46:02.960 um and so tailwind's big thing 0:45:59.119,0:46:04.640 using tailwind laravel um 0:46:02.960,0:46:06.400 the thing where i've gone back and forth 0:46:04.640,0:46:09.280 on is with what front end 0:46:06.400,0:46:10.240 library or or framework to use whether 0:46:09.280,0:46:13.119 it's react or 0:46:10.240,0:46:14.880 view um like i kind of missed that we 0:46:13.119,0:46:15.200 call that missed that ship when when i 0:46:14.880,0:46:18.240 was 0:46:15.200,0:46:20.480 in a non-non-technical role 0:46:18.240,0:46:21.760 so i never like i know javascript but 0:46:20.480,0:46:23.440 i'm not a 0:46:21.760,0:46:26.240 i try to get into view and react in 0:46:23.440,0:46:27.680 angular and basically it's like oh my 0:46:26.240,0:46:28.640 goodness this gets really complicated 0:46:27.680,0:46:30.480 fast 0:46:28.640,0:46:32.160 and i remember back when we could just 0:46:30.480,0:46:35.680 do like ajax forms 0:46:32.160,0:46:37.359 and you know like so that that's 0:46:35.680,0:46:38.400 the stuff that i i'm just trying to 0:46:37.359,0:46:40.240 minimize what are the different 0:46:38.400,0:46:40.800 technologies like there's live wire now 0:46:40.240,0:46:41.839 which 0:46:40.800,0:46:43.520 i don't know if you're familiar with 0:46:41.839,0:46:45.119 livewire i've heard about that yeah i 0:46:43.520,0:46:47.280 haven't dug into it too much 0:46:45.119,0:46:48.800 but it's i it seems like the people that 0:46:47.280,0:46:50.160 use it seem to enjoy it and it 0:46:48.800,0:46:51.760 simplifies 0:46:50.160,0:46:53.200 some of the things that can get 0:46:51.760,0:46:56.319 complicated with 0:46:53.200,0:46:57.680 frameworks yeah well basically you can 0:46:56.319,0:47:00.800 write php code to write 0:46:57.680,0:47:02.880 javascript so the idea is that instead 0:47:00.800,0:47:06.720 of having to learn how to write 0:47:02.880,0:47:08.160 um vujs or react you can accomplish a 0:47:06.720,0:47:12.240 lot of those same 0:47:08.160,0:47:14.720 uh functionality using php and laravel 0:47:12.240,0:47:16.000 and what i will say is like this is like 0:47:14.720,0:47:16.880 like you don't know though until you 0:47:16.000,0:47:18.079 start building stuff with the 0:47:16.880,0:47:21.359 limitations are 0:47:18.079,0:47:22.000 and i'll say that like for for one click 0:47:21.359,0:47:23.280 pony 0:47:22.000,0:47:25.680 which is the product i'm working on 0:47:23.280,0:47:28.319 right now um 0:47:25.680,0:47:30.000 i initially i said let's use livewire in 0:47:28.319,0:47:31.119 that stack and we started brushing up 0:47:30.000,0:47:32.400 against some things where 0:47:31.119,0:47:34.240 this would be so much easier to do in 0:47:32.400,0:47:36.160 vue.js and 0:47:34.240,0:47:37.760 since i wasn't the one though building 0:47:36.160,0:47:40.000 the vue.js code i 0:47:37.760,0:47:41.280 ultimately he had to explain to me as to 0:47:40.000,0:47:43.599 like why is he advocating 0:47:41.280,0:47:46.160 to use vue instead of shifting off of 0:47:43.599,0:47:47.839 our live wire 0:47:46.160,0:47:49.839 approach but what he said made sense and 0:47:47.839,0:47:52.800 i trust him and so 0:47:49.839,0:47:53.200 um but as a general framework i was 0:47:52.800,0:47:55.119 basically 0:47:53.200,0:47:57.040 like i want to start every project using 0:47:55.119,0:47:58.720 the same stack which is again going back 0:47:57.040,0:47:59.440 to the if i'm doing freelance projects 0:47:58.720,0:48:01.760 to like 0:47:59.440,0:48:03.280 do cash flow they're gonna be shopify 0:48:01.760,0:48:05.440 related because 0:48:03.280,0:48:06.480 you know like i'm working on a product 0:48:05.440,0:48:09.040 myself that 0:48:06.480,0:48:11.280 is for shopify merchants and if i'm 0:48:09.040,0:48:13.040 building a shopify app for someone else 0:48:11.280,0:48:14.480 i can build that without a whole lot of 0:48:13.040,0:48:16.160 context switching 0:48:14.480,0:48:17.920 and just build upon knowledge i already 0:48:16.160,0:48:20.480 have right right 0:48:17.920,0:48:21.760 yeah that's that's that compounding 0:48:20.480,0:48:24.000 interest of 0:48:21.760,0:48:25.280 uh the skill set the network around 0:48:24.000,0:48:27.760 shopify stuff 0:48:25.280,0:48:28.480 the probably tying in even to like the 0:48:27.760,0:48:30.400 partnership 0:48:28.480,0:48:31.599 program or people that you know and 0:48:30.400,0:48:35.280 things like that 0:48:31.599,0:48:38.960 um i love your uh tag line is like 0:48:35.280,0:48:41.280 bending uh uh bending shopify to the 0:48:38.960,0:48:41.839 will of seven figure merchants something 0:48:41.280,0:48:44.640 like that 0:48:41.839,0:48:47.040 right um yeah what what's some of the 0:48:44.640,0:48:50.400 interesting stuff that you've done 0:48:47.040,0:48:53.040 uh with with shopify with maybe unique 0:48:50.400,0:48:54.400 uh implementations or functionality 0:48:53.040,0:48:58.160 that's been 0:48:54.400,0:48:59.599 that's been interesting so 0:48:58.160,0:49:01.440 i mean i've been just trying to figure 0:48:59.599,0:49:03.599 out how to explain what i do and 0:49:01.440,0:49:05.920 try a lot of it is in the finding the 0:49:03.599,0:49:08.400 language that appeals to the type of 0:49:05.920,0:49:09.280 companies i enjoy working with which 0:49:08.400,0:49:10.960 like it sounds 0:49:09.280,0:49:13.200 so like we'll call it like blowhard 0:49:10.960,0:49:15.359 marketing-ish of me to read 0:49:13.200,0:49:16.319 seven-figure shopify stores but 0:49:15.359,0:49:17.520 ultimately what 0:49:16.319,0:49:19.119 going back to like the point of is i 0:49:17.520,0:49:19.839 want to i want to work find brands who 0:49:19.119,0:49:21.119 are 0:49:19.839,0:49:22.400 they have a product they have some 0:49:21.119,0:49:24.319 success they know they have like a 0:49:22.400,0:49:26.240 general sense of how to build a business 0:49:24.319,0:49:28.480 um and i can those are the brands who i 0:49:26.240,0:49:31.839 can be disproportionately helpful for 0:49:28.480,0:49:34.079 totally because i'm not a marketer 0:49:31.839,0:49:35.839 and so if you're making at least 100 0:49:34.079,0:49:37.920 100k a month in mrr 0:49:35.839,0:49:39.599 or not necessary mrr but 100k a month in 0:49:37.920,0:49:40.800 revenue yeah probably have a lot of that 0:49:39.599,0:49:42.640 stuff figured out 0:49:40.800,0:49:44.000 um in terms of things that have been 0:49:42.640,0:49:47.200 done that 0:49:44.000,0:49:50.400 are useful or like unexpected i i mean i 0:49:47.200,0:49:51.680 love the shopify app proxy so you can do 0:49:50.400,0:49:53.760 embedded apps 0:49:51.680,0:49:55.839 that was one of the early on at least in 0:49:53.760,0:49:57.200 the shopify app ecosystem it was like i 0:49:55.839,0:49:59.920 feel like it was a 0:49:57.200,0:50:01.280 no one knew about it um i'm sure because 0:49:59.920,0:50:03.119 it's also something you like you only 0:50:01.280,0:50:06.240 discover it by going into 0:50:03.119,0:50:07.680 a subset of of the app properties to be 0:50:06.240,0:50:09.359 able to enable it 0:50:07.680,0:50:11.119 so back when the whole idea was how do 0:50:09.359,0:50:12.559 you build a how do you have the checkout 0:50:11.119,0:50:14.480 on your own domain 0:50:12.559,0:50:16.599 because it used to be like on shopify 0:50:14.480,0:50:17.839 every checkout page was on 0:50:16.599,0:50:21.119 something.myshopify.com 0:50:17.839,0:50:22.800 right so the solution and was like the 0:50:21.119,0:50:24.880 first solution it's ever seen is just 0:50:22.800,0:50:26.240 use an app proxy and then it'll actually 0:50:24.880,0:50:28.880 you can have your checkout page on your 0:50:26.240,0:50:30.880 domain right like 0:50:28.880,0:50:32.240 because the app proxy is always it's a 0:50:30.880,0:50:34.319 reverse proxy and it's 0:50:32.240,0:50:36.240 after your domain so you literally could 0:50:34.319,0:50:39.280 just do an app proxy 0:50:36.240,0:50:40.960 to the external checkout and it'll show 0:50:39.280,0:50:43.280 up on your store 0:50:40.960,0:50:44.319 and so that was like one i'll call it 0:50:43.280,0:50:45.359 one of the 0:50:44.319,0:50:47.359 things where it's like it was a very 0:50:45.359,0:50:49.200 simple solution and it was provided out 0:50:47.359,0:50:52.079 of the box it's just you didn't 0:50:49.200,0:50:53.359 know to try it that way um and i think 0:50:52.079,0:50:55.040 there's a fair number of examples of 0:50:53.359,0:50:56.720 that which even shopify 0:50:55.040,0:51:00.400 because shopify has a lot of surface 0:50:56.720,0:51:04.240 area there's the ajax api there's 0:51:00.400,0:51:06.800 um a bunch of different apis 0:51:04.240,0:51:08.240 and as i mentioned earlier in the 0:51:06.800,0:51:10.559 conversation not every 0:51:08.240,0:51:11.440 api can be used it depends a bit on your 0:51:10.559,0:51:14.720 sales channel 0:51:11.440,0:51:17.040 depends what what store the plus of what 0:51:14.720,0:51:18.240 depends a bit on what plan the store 0:51:17.040,0:51:20.400 themselves is on 0:51:18.240,0:51:22.079 right um you now have four like three or 0:51:20.400,0:51:25.920 four different types of apps 0:51:22.079,0:51:25.920 so i would say that 0:51:27.760,0:51:33.280 that was probably one of the biggest 0:51:30.960,0:51:34.559 unexpected ways of using shopify zone 0:51:33.280,0:51:37.119 technology to like 0:51:34.559,0:51:37.920 solve a solve a cool problem yeah that's 0:51:37.119,0:51:40.079 that's one of the 0:51:37.920,0:51:41.599 so you were early on with that solution 0:51:40.079,0:51:44.000 because that's one of the 0:51:41.599,0:51:44.720 things that has gotten pretty popular 0:51:44.000,0:51:46.960 like people 0:51:44.720,0:51:48.559 having to check out on their own domain 0:51:46.960,0:51:51.680 um and it's always been possible 0:51:48.559,0:51:52.800 um and eventually shopify changed it 0:51:51.680,0:51:54.640 themselves now you 0:51:52.800,0:51:56.160 the checkout is on their own domain but 0:51:54.640,0:51:57.680 that was the simplest solution to be 0:51:56.160,0:51:59.680 able to have it and 0:51:57.680,0:52:00.960 um you know it's kind of like one of 0:51:59.680,0:52:01.440 those things we're staring everyone in 0:52:00.960,0:52:03.200 the face 0:52:01.440,0:52:04.640 and a lot of it comes down to like just 0:52:03.200,0:52:05.440 thinking to apply something in a 0:52:04.640,0:52:08.160 different way 0:52:05.440,0:52:08.160 right um 0:52:09.359,0:52:12.240 and even if part of what i'll tell you 0:52:10.800,0:52:13.119 part of what i've liked what other 0:52:12.240,0:52:14.400 people have done 0:52:13.119,0:52:16.400 that's been smart is like the order 0:52:14.400,0:52:19.760 bumps right like 0:52:16.400,0:52:21.599 finding ways to modify the the checkout 0:52:19.760,0:52:23.200 page to be able to add a little bit more 0:52:21.599,0:52:26.480 customization 0:52:23.200,0:52:26.480 um i think 0:52:27.920,0:52:31.520 i've been impressed by some of the 0:52:29.040,0:52:34.000 implementations i've seen with that 0:52:31.520,0:52:34.880 um is that i might not be familiar order 0:52:34.000,0:52:37.839 bump is that uh 0:52:34.880,0:52:38.400 is that an app yep yeah there's a few of 0:52:37.839,0:52:40.079 them 0:52:38.400,0:52:42.160 um i believe they only work with plus 0:52:40.079,0:52:42.880 stores because you need to be able to 0:52:42.160,0:52:45.520 install 0:52:42.880,0:52:47.119 uh some stuff on the on the checkout 0:52:45.520,0:52:48.640 page right right but you've even i've 0:52:47.119,0:52:50.319 even seen some people do some cool stuff 0:52:48.640,0:52:52.960 on the thank you page where 0:52:50.319,0:52:54.559 um back in the day it used to be that 0:52:52.960,0:52:55.680 people put like javascript in like the 0:52:54.559,0:52:57.599 google analytics 0:52:55.680,0:52:59.280 id because you could just paste 0:52:57.599,0:53:01.440 javascript in there i think that was an 0:52:59.280,0:53:02.400 early one i saw some people doing 0:53:01.440,0:53:03.680 um basically you're just trying to 0:53:02.400,0:53:04.880 figure out where can i put how can i 0:53:03.680,0:53:07.440 have javascript 0:53:04.880,0:53:08.559 fire anywhere so i have more control and 0:53:07.440,0:53:11.760 can adjust the 0:53:08.559,0:53:12.839 dom right um a buddy of mine was telling 0:53:11.760,0:53:16.160 me that uh 0:53:12.839,0:53:17.920 cloudflare has these uh workers now or 0:53:16.160,0:53:19.760 something like that where you can inject 0:53:17.920,0:53:21.119 use those a lot that's cool you can 0:53:19.760,0:53:24.000 inject at the edge 0:53:21.119,0:53:25.040 javascript even if you're not on plus or 0:53:24.000,0:53:27.359 whatever 0:53:25.040,0:53:28.559 yeah oh that's interesting i actually so 0:53:27.359,0:53:29.920 that's the perfect example i hadn't 0:53:28.559,0:53:32.720 thought of applying it 0:53:29.920,0:53:34.559 on like in the shopify context i use 0:53:32.720,0:53:37.200 serverless workers all the time though 0:53:34.559,0:53:37.599 to do reverse proxies so i i'm working 0:53:37.200,0:53:39.200 with 0:53:37.599,0:53:40.880 one brand right now in my consulting 0:53:39.200,0:53:43.280 where they have 0:53:40.880,0:53:44.720 webflow for the landing pages for their 0:53:43.280,0:53:47.599 marketing page 0:53:44.720,0:53:49.040 we have uh actually a custom laravel app 0:53:47.599,0:53:52.559 for the checkout 0:53:49.040,0:53:55.440 and then they also have some other apis 0:53:52.559,0:53:57.280 for like a for like a personalized quiz 0:53:55.440,0:53:57.920 and we need to give the impression that 0:53:57.280,0:53:59.440 they're all 0:53:57.920,0:54:00.960 all three of these things are operating 0:53:59.440,0:54:01.680 on the same domain which is impossible 0:54:00.960,0:54:04.880 in part because 0:54:01.680,0:54:06.559 the top level site is web flow you can't 0:54:04.880,0:54:08.400 right like so the way you accomplish it 0:54:06.559,0:54:09.839 is using cloudflare servers workers 0:54:08.400,0:54:11.040 where you're not paying for bandwidth 0:54:09.839,0:54:13.359 it's effectively 0:54:11.040,0:54:14.960 javascript um i think it actually 0:54:13.359,0:54:17.200 supports other languages too 0:54:14.960,0:54:18.480 um but anyway like you can accomplish it 0:54:17.200,0:54:21.839 through javascript 0:54:18.480,0:54:25.599 it's super powerful um 0:54:21.839,0:54:27.839 and because it's cloudflare you know i i 0:54:25.599,0:54:28.800 more or less blindly trust that a lot of 0:54:27.839,0:54:32.000 the stuff they build is 0:54:28.800,0:54:34.960 is dope yeah yeah yeah 0:54:32.000,0:54:35.839 you talk about like oh sorry guys sorry 0:54:34.960,0:54:38.319 go ahead 0:54:35.839,0:54:40.720 um now i should say cloudflare it's like 0:54:38.319,0:54:42.559 you talk about decentralization versus 0:54:40.720,0:54:44.880 centralization it's like we're all 0:54:42.559,0:54:46.559 centralized on cloudflare and for the 0:54:44.880,0:54:48.160 most part they do a great job every once 0:54:46.559,0:54:50.559 in a while there's an outage 0:54:48.160,0:54:52.000 um but for the most part they do a 0:54:50.559,0:54:53.599 tremendous job 0:54:52.000,0:54:55.040 and when you look at like ssl 0:54:53.599,0:54:56.480 certificates and these things that were 0:54:55.040,0:54:58.240 a pain in the ass 0:54:56.480,0:54:59.839 um and you know that's using let's 0:54:58.240,0:55:01.599 encrypt but i would say that from a 0:54:59.839,0:55:02.400 product perspective of like making the 0:55:01.599,0:55:04.079 boring stuff 0:55:02.400,0:55:06.240 and like not just boring but like 0:55:04.079,0:55:08.799 painful stuff like ssl certificates 0:55:06.240,0:55:09.520 making it not painful cloudflare has 0:55:08.799,0:55:12.640 done that 0:55:09.520,0:55:13.760 in so many different areas um although i 0:55:12.640,0:55:15.760 i was googling 0:55:13.760,0:55:20.240 or what is it what's it called when 0:55:15.760,0:55:21.760 you're googling on twitter just find 0:55:20.240,0:55:25.440 people who were talking about twitter 0:55:21.760,0:55:27.040 twitter searching twitter i don't know i 0:55:25.440,0:55:28.720 was searching over the twitterverse 0:55:27.040,0:55:30.240 yeah and because so one of the things 0:55:28.720,0:55:32.559 i've been doing over the last year is 0:55:30.240,0:55:33.520 buying stocks in the companies that i 0:55:32.559,0:55:35.760 use so 0:55:33.520,0:55:37.440 when i was first building one click pony 0:55:35.760,0:55:38.480 i was like using sms all day long so i 0:55:37.440,0:55:41.359 bought one for twilio 0:55:38.480,0:55:41.920 i was like i was like i hate you i don't 0:55:41.359,0:55:44.240 i 0:55:41.920,0:55:45.680 i just i wish i'd thought i wish i'd 0:55:44.240,0:55:47.119 bought shopify stock back when we were 0:55:45.680,0:55:50.480 first using shopify man 0:55:47.119,0:55:52.960 yeah yeah that is one that i will can 0:55:50.480,0:55:53.599 to this day i i so i bought some stock 0:55:52.960,0:55:56.799 stock 0:55:53.599,0:55:58.480 stock shopify stock 0:55:56.799,0:56:00.000 i also bought some big commerce to hedge 0:55:58.480,0:56:03.119 my bets 0:56:00.000,0:56:03.839 which i've only lost money on so far but 0:56:03.119,0:56:05.839 no i bought 0:56:03.839,0:56:08.640 i bought twilio early in part because i 0:56:05.839,0:56:10.799 was building stuff in sms and i 0:56:08.640,0:56:12.480 so like i was mentioning like the early 0:56:10.799,0:56:13.040 version of one of one click pony was a 0:56:12.480,0:56:15.040 one click 0:56:13.040,0:56:16.720 buy button that can be embedded in email 0:56:15.040,0:56:18.000 which ironically is what fastest raised 0:56:16.720,0:56:20.079 a bunch of money to do 0:56:18.000,0:56:21.760 uh so i built this seven years ago and 0:56:20.079,0:56:24.559 was using it with stripe 0:56:21.760,0:56:25.200 yeah and mostly advice i got was just 0:56:24.559,0:56:27.839 like 0:56:25.200,0:56:28.640 like who's gonna use that yeah and i was 0:56:27.839,0:56:31.599 like i don't know 0:56:28.640,0:56:32.160 and that and so that was when i met 0:56:31.599,0:56:34.240 jordan 0:56:32.160,0:56:35.760 and jordan and i started cart hook and 0:56:34.240,0:56:37.359 so i've always had this one click buy 0:56:35.760,0:56:41.440 button just like sitting there 0:56:37.359,0:56:42.160 um like i gotta use this for something b 0:56:41.440,0:56:44.640 to b 0:56:42.160,0:56:46.319 something i was like it's cool and so 0:56:44.640,0:56:47.920 then i was looking into sms and so we 0:56:46.319,0:56:48.640 made it so you could reply to buy like 0:56:47.920,0:56:50.720 you just reply 0:56:48.640,0:56:52.640 buy and it'll automatically buy it just 0:56:50.720,0:56:54.319 by like texting 0:56:52.640,0:56:56.160 and so that's when i was like oh wow 0:56:54.319,0:56:58.160 twilio is actually really powerful and 0:56:56.160,0:57:00.640 we can do some cool stuff 0:56:58.160,0:57:01.359 so um so then i've been looking at other 0:57:00.640,0:57:04.240 companies like 0:57:01.359,0:57:05.839 cloudflare and uh what are other 0:57:04.240,0:57:07.119 infrastructure products that might be a 0:57:05.839,0:57:08.559 good investment but i know nothing about 0:57:07.119,0:57:11.200 investing so 0:57:08.559,0:57:12.480 right it's maybe a little bit better 0:57:11.200,0:57:15.680 than betting 0:57:12.480,0:57:17.920 um no but it's it's true that you know 0:57:15.680,0:57:18.799 if if you're in tech and you're using 0:57:17.920,0:57:21.520 these products 0:57:18.799,0:57:23.359 you you don't feel like you're early 0:57:21.520,0:57:25.599 like if you're using twilio 0:57:23.359,0:57:26.640 that's the obvious thing everybody knows 0:57:25.599,0:57:28.799 you use twilio 0:57:26.640,0:57:30.640 yeah but like we have to remember that 0:57:28.799,0:57:32.960 we're early adopters compared to the 0:57:30.640,0:57:35.680 rest of the economy at large 0:57:32.960,0:57:37.359 um so it's probably still a good 0:57:35.680,0:57:37.680 opportunity i have to say i love the 0:57:37.359,0:57:40.400 name 0:57:37.680,0:57:40.720 one click pony it's fantastic oh thank 0:57:40.400,0:57:42.559 you 0:57:40.720,0:57:44.160 and like you say you're not a marketer 0:57:42.559,0:57:47.200 but i feel like 0:57:44.160,0:57:48.000 you're good at um at call it marketing 0:57:47.200,0:57:50.480 or call it 0:57:48.000,0:57:51.680 you know wording things expressing 0:57:50.480,0:57:53.599 things well like 0:57:51.680,0:57:55.119 you have a cool brand and all that you 0:57:53.599,0:57:56.480 know 0:57:55.119,0:57:58.160 thank you man well i think that's 0:57:56.480,0:58:00.240 partially why it's been hard to do 0:57:58.160,0:58:01.599 like i've kind of always found my for a 0:58:00.240,0:58:03.760 while i thought i wanted to do product 0:58:01.599,0:58:05.440 instead of engineering because i never 0:58:03.760,0:58:08.240 like i'd say like i'm a decent 0:58:05.440,0:58:10.559 programmer i'm also a decent designer 0:58:08.240,0:58:11.760 like i'm not necessarily i'm not the 0:58:10.559,0:58:14.000 best of either of those 0:58:11.760,0:58:15.440 for sure and also like but like i really 0:58:14.000,0:58:16.799 enjoy business problems 0:58:15.440,0:58:18.960 but i'm not necessarily the best 0:58:16.799,0:58:20.559 business person either and so i've been 0:58:18.960,0:58:21.040 trying to figure out what's my niche 0:58:20.559,0:58:23.359 that 0:58:21.040,0:58:24.559 is a combination of all those things 0:58:23.359,0:58:26.559 where i'm better than 0:58:24.559,0:58:29.200 i'm better at that one like that 0:58:26.559,0:58:31.119 combination is more powerful than being 0:58:29.200,0:58:33.040 individually good at any one thing right 0:58:31.119,0:58:34.880 now i appreciate you saying that i think 0:58:33.040,0:58:37.280 my biggest challenge in hang up actually 0:58:34.880,0:58:39.040 is content really um i'm much more 0:58:37.280,0:58:39.680 comfortable having a conversation like 0:58:39.040,0:58:41.680 this 0:58:39.680,0:58:43.119 i've been writing a blog post for my 0:58:41.680,0:58:44.240 newsletter for the last two and a half 0:58:43.119,0:58:45.760 years 0:58:44.240,0:58:48.240 i still i've been working on the welcome 0:58:45.760,0:58:51.280 email i'm not like this is a true story 0:58:48.240,0:58:54.160 i have like probably like 80 versions of 0:58:51.280,0:58:54.160 my welcome email 0:58:54.319,0:58:58.480 i even took a class on writing and it's 0:58:57.040,0:59:00.799 not that like i'm scared of being 0:58:58.480,0:59:01.680 judged i mean maybe to an extent i am 0:59:00.799,0:59:03.839 yeah but 0:59:01.680,0:59:05.200 no like like my thing i've been trying 0:59:03.839,0:59:07.760 to figure out how can i 0:59:05.200,0:59:09.040 create byproducts of all the things that 0:59:07.760,0:59:10.880 i'm learning and reading 0:59:09.040,0:59:12.799 my biggest the biggest feedback i get 0:59:10.880,0:59:14.960 from my friends is you send you share 0:59:12.799,0:59:16.640 way too many freaking links dude 0:59:14.960,0:59:18.079 like and i give them i give them no 0:59:16.640,0:59:19.440 context right 0:59:18.079,0:59:21.280 whereas i'm like oh just read it and 0:59:19.440,0:59:22.480 it'll make sense to you and so one of 0:59:21.280,0:59:23.760 the things i've been learning and it's 0:59:22.480,0:59:24.720 funny that you mentioned like all the 0:59:23.760,0:59:28.079 links that i share 0:59:24.720,0:59:32.079 all the freaking uh subscription sites 0:59:28.079,0:59:33.839 yeah yeah my friends have muted me um 0:59:32.079,0:59:35.520 because what they say that they want and 0:59:33.839,0:59:39.119 you know i don't blame them is 0:59:35.520,0:59:42.559 they want context they want a summary of 0:59:39.119,0:59:44.720 like what's the tldr you just keep 0:59:42.559,0:59:45.839 blasting 0:59:44.720,0:59:48.000 well because then they're like why 0:59:45.839,0:59:49.680 didn't you then they'll find something 0:59:48.000,0:59:50.799 like like they'll find something they're 0:59:49.680,0:59:51.359 like why don't you tell me about this 0:59:50.799,0:59:54.400 i'm like 0:59:51.359,0:59:56.400 well i probably did but you muted me 0:59:54.400,0:59:58.880 and you know but like so i'm trying to 0:59:56.400,1:00:00.319 find i'll tell you like a business 0:59:58.880,1:00:01.839 this goes back to like trying to find 1:00:00.319,1:00:02.720 like business ideas that you're like are 1:00:01.839,1:00:04.160 perfect for you 1:00:02.720,1:00:06.480 yeah it's like i just want to build a 1:00:04.160,1:00:07.920 premium version of nuzzle 1:00:06.480,1:00:10.000 right i just want to like because nuzzle 1:00:07.920,1:00:11.839 you can't do any branding i want to be 1:00:10.000,1:00:13.359 able to even like summarize it sub stack 1:00:11.839,1:00:15.440 is kind of doing this now 1:00:13.359,1:00:17.680 it's like i just want like i read 1:00:15.440,1:00:18.720 through i have my process for digesting 1:00:17.680,1:00:20.559 information 1:00:18.720,1:00:21.760 i want to like like if i share insta 1:00:20.559,1:00:23.040 paper with you 1:00:21.760,1:00:25.200 the things aren't highlighted they're 1:00:23.040,1:00:27.119 only highlighted for me that makes 1:00:25.200,1:00:28.480 no sense right if i share with you an 1:00:27.119,1:00:29.760 insta paper thing 1:00:28.480,1:00:31.680 it should be highlighted and you can see 1:00:29.760,1:00:33.280 my comments and my highlights 1:00:31.680,1:00:34.799 right like i just want to do that and 1:00:33.280,1:00:36.960 then combine that with nuzzle 1:00:34.799,1:00:38.640 that's a that's a cool idea because like 1:00:36.960,1:00:40.799 i feel like i looked at a bunch of stuff 1:00:38.640,1:00:44.000 you shared and there was a lot of really 1:00:40.799,1:00:45.359 interesting stuff in there um and then a 1:00:44.000,1:00:47.760 couple times i click through to the 1:00:45.359,1:00:50.480 nuzzle and the nuzzle layout is like 1:00:47.760,1:00:52.640 you know it's it could be cleaner right 1:00:50.480,1:00:54.559 and then right below your post it's like 1:00:52.640,1:00:56.720 showing your friends posts or whatever 1:00:54.559,1:00:59.440 it's like cross promoting and stuff so 1:00:56.720,1:01:00.000 i could imagine something that like uh 1:00:59.440,1:01:01.440 was 1:01:00.000,1:01:03.040 simpler and cleaner and you could just 1:01:01.440,1:01:04.319 share a short blurb 1:01:03.040,1:01:06.079 you know what i mean and i think there 1:01:04.319,1:01:07.599 would be yeah because there's so much 1:01:06.079,1:01:09.280 value in just curating 1:01:07.599,1:01:11.280 like there was a lot of interesting 1:01:09.280,1:01:13.680 stuff there b to b e-com different 1:01:11.280,1:01:15.839 things that i found myself interested in 1:01:13.680,1:01:16.799 you know well and i think webb does a 1:01:15.839,1:01:19.359 great job of that 1:01:16.799,1:01:21.359 i think 2 p.m that's probably the best 1:01:19.359,1:01:22.799 example i've seen of part of what i dig 1:01:21.359,1:01:24.799 are you familiar with his newsletter 1:01:22.799,1:01:26.400 yeah webb smith where like he 1:01:24.799,1:01:28.319 yeah webb smith where he has like 1:01:26.400,1:01:30.319 basically like there's like an excerpt 1:01:28.319,1:01:31.440 and then there's like the editor's notes 1:01:30.319,1:01:32.960 okay 1:01:31.440,1:01:35.040 like if i were to model something it 1:01:32.960,1:01:38.960 would probably be that um 1:01:35.040,1:01:40.079 nice he and so but no i like i like this 1:01:38.960,1:01:41.359 idea i don't 1:01:40.079,1:01:43.280 i don't know how many other people 1:01:41.359,1:01:45.440 besides me would pay for it 1:01:43.280,1:01:46.720 um but it's a huge problem because i i 1:01:45.440,1:01:49.440 read so much 1:01:46.720,1:01:51.520 like my biggest fear is wasting my time 1:01:49.440,1:01:54.160 reading stuff and not translating that 1:01:51.520,1:01:55.680 to uh knowledge and so i've taken 1:01:54.160,1:01:58.720 courses on that too 1:01:55.680,1:02:00.480 uh like you know like 1:01:58.720,1:02:03.200 building a second brain is a great 1:02:00.480,1:02:04.799 course right around 1:02:03.200,1:02:06.640 effectively how do you what's your 1:02:04.799,1:02:07.920 approach for storing information i use 1:02:06.640,1:02:10.319 evernote 1:02:07.920,1:02:11.839 and like you know making sure that 1:02:10.319,1:02:13.440 you're reevaluating 1:02:11.839,1:02:15.359 things you're writing so you can apply 1:02:13.440,1:02:17.359 it um 1:02:15.359,1:02:19.119 so for me yes like speaking is much more 1:02:17.359,1:02:21.599 is much more natural 1:02:19.119,1:02:22.960 the challenge can be then is how do i 1:02:21.599,1:02:25.119 build something that i can 1:02:22.960,1:02:26.720 how can i extract things i'd love to 1:02:25.119,1:02:29.280 share with you and talk to you about 1:02:26.720,1:02:30.960 in a form that is natural to me but also 1:02:29.280,1:02:32.160 that can be shared and that people can 1:02:30.960,1:02:33.359 see it and they can get a better sense 1:02:32.160,1:02:35.599 like for me as a designer it used to be 1:02:33.359,1:02:37.280 having a portfolio of my work 1:02:35.599,1:02:38.640 like you could go to skinnyinvol.com 1:02:37.280,1:02:39.839 right now you can see my work and i 1:02:38.640,1:02:40.960 can't even tell you how much business 1:02:39.839,1:02:42.480 that's gotten me 1:02:40.960,1:02:44.400 right it's probably why jordan i mean 1:02:42.480,1:02:47.680 that's why jordan and i first 1:02:44.400,1:02:50.480 met in the first place um right 1:02:47.680,1:02:51.680 but yeah so this idea of showcasing what 1:02:50.480,1:02:52.400 you're reading and what you're thinking 1:02:51.680,1:02:56.000 about is 1:02:52.400,1:02:57.039 is really powerful but um yeah that that 1:02:56.000,1:03:00.000 would be interesting 1:02:57.039,1:03:01.839 um i i have the opposite problem which 1:03:00.000,1:03:03.520 is i don't want to read anything long 1:03:01.839,1:03:06.799 form these days 1:03:03.520,1:03:07.680 um and i just like i i want to read 1:03:06.799,1:03:10.000 tweets 1:03:07.680,1:03:11.920 that are digestible and i feel like 1:03:10.000,1:03:14.240 sometimes i feel like it's great and i 1:03:11.920,1:03:16.400 have my feed really well curated 1:03:14.240,1:03:17.920 and it's making me smarter and then 1:03:16.400,1:03:18.880 other days i feel like it's just making 1:03:17.920,1:03:21.280 me dumber 1:03:18.880,1:03:22.559 and i gotta sit down turn it off and 1:03:21.280,1:03:25.200 read a book 1:03:22.559,1:03:26.160 um yeah but you know there's so many 1:03:25.200,1:03:29.440 different 1:03:26.160,1:03:31.280 formats to i listen to podcasts 1:03:29.440,1:03:33.200 you know i listen to a ton of podcasts 1:03:31.280,1:03:34.960 yeah um 1:03:33.200,1:03:36.799 well which is funny because i generally 1:03:34.960,1:03:38.480 hate podcasts 1:03:36.799,1:03:40.160 because it feels like people just 1:03:38.480,1:03:41.839 talking and i'm kind of like what's the 1:03:40.160,1:03:44.720 point teach me to get to the point 1:03:41.839,1:03:46.480 yeah yeah which is ironic because 80 and 1:03:44.720,1:03:48.240 i we recorded our first episode together 1:03:46.480,1:03:49.200 this morning which is that's awesome our 1:03:48.240,1:03:52.640 podcast is 1:03:49.200,1:03:54.640 it's called the dog and pony show 1:03:52.640,1:03:55.680 where he's talking about the process of 1:03:54.640,1:03:57.680 building cogsi 1:03:55.680,1:03:59.039 is his new sass yeah and i'm talking 1:03:57.680,1:04:00.799 about one click pony 1:03:59.039,1:04:02.720 um so it's ideas like we'll bring on 1:04:00.799,1:04:03.599 people like sure you'll come on and like 1:04:02.720,1:04:05.839 can talk about 1:04:03.599,1:04:07.039 like um but no it's like one of those 1:04:05.839,1:04:10.160 things where 1:04:07.039,1:04:11.680 um but personally i've listened to a 1:04:10.160,1:04:12.720 bunch of podcasts but i really prefer 1:04:11.680,1:04:14.240 things that are more 1:04:12.720,1:04:17.039 like what i want to take something out 1:04:14.240,1:04:20.079 of it right i don't want to just 1:04:17.039,1:04:22.240 write somewhere into audio books and uh 1:04:20.079,1:04:23.440 reading normal books right yeah there's 1:04:22.240,1:04:25.440 so many uh 1:04:23.440,1:04:28.480 options you know i think you have to 1:04:25.440,1:04:28.480 find what um 1:04:28.799,1:04:32.240 for for for consuming content and 1:04:30.720,1:04:34.000 creating it um 1:04:32.240,1:04:35.599 and you kind of gotta find what works i 1:04:34.000,1:04:37.440 know we're over our time and i'm 1:04:35.599,1:04:40.240 i'm i'm wondering that you're on a 1:04:37.440,1:04:42.000 schedule so we should probably uh 1:04:40.240,1:04:43.359 no i put time up for you but no i 1:04:42.000,1:04:45.359 appreciate that man 1:04:43.359,1:04:46.799 yeah let me know if you have a hard stop 1:04:45.359,1:04:49.760 um i don't but 1:04:46.799,1:04:51.680 okay cool um but yeah like i think you 1:04:49.760,1:04:52.799 got to find that format that really 1:04:51.680,1:04:55.920 works 1:04:52.799,1:04:59.280 um to where you can just put stuff 1:04:55.920,1:05:01.280 out and you know be productive and and 1:04:59.280,1:05:03.039 there's something that you enjoy about 1:05:01.280,1:05:03.839 just putting your ideas out into the 1:05:03.039,1:05:07.200 world 1:05:03.839,1:05:09.359 you know regardless of if there's direct 1:05:07.200,1:05:10.559 actionable revenue from them you know 1:05:09.359,1:05:14.319 what i mean 1:05:10.559,1:05:14.880 yep um yeah well i think it's just so 1:05:14.319,1:05:17.839 easy 1:05:14.880,1:05:19.039 to to ramble and to talk yeah and to 1:05:17.839,1:05:21.039 speak in generalities 1:05:19.039,1:05:23.599 yeah and i know that what i appreciate 1:05:21.039,1:05:25.920 more is like behind the scenes 1:05:23.599,1:05:28.000 like from the cutting room floor of what 1:05:25.920,1:05:30.319 was it actually like and those are 1:05:28.000,1:05:31.920 i think i actually think jordan um and 1:05:30.319,1:05:33.920 brian have done a great job of that 1:05:31.920,1:05:35.359 with with bootstrap web yeah where 1:05:33.920,1:05:38.960 they're like honest 1:05:35.359,1:05:40.559 yeah um and transparent i think 1:05:38.960,1:05:44.000 like those are the stories i personally 1:05:40.559,1:05:45.680 appreciate yeah um 1:05:44.000,1:05:47.280 because it's easy the funny thing is 1:05:45.680,1:05:48.720 like even starting one click pony the 1:05:47.280,1:05:49.119 advice i always got was like oh just 1:05:48.720,1:05:51.280 like 1:05:49.119,1:05:52.480 hold the email people to do like find 1:05:51.280,1:05:54.880 your first customers 1:05:52.480,1:05:56.400 i'm like yeah okay i know that like the 1:05:54.880,1:05:57.280 challenge becomes in like there's a 1:05:56.400,1:06:00.240 million different 1:05:57.280,1:06:00.960 potential levers around content or like 1:06:00.240,1:06:03.440 oh just like 1:06:00.960,1:06:04.079 post to linkedin and you know come up 1:06:03.440,1:06:06.480 with your content 1:06:04.079,1:06:08.319 strategy and and do like you know i've 1:06:06.480,1:06:09.920 done things with built with lists 1:06:08.319,1:06:11.520 uh i've hired i've hired two email 1:06:09.920,1:06:13.839 marketing agencies to help with 1:06:11.520,1:06:15.200 like outbound um i've also read that 1:06:13.839,1:06:16.720 that's like the worst strategy to do 1:06:15.200,1:06:18.880 because you can't outsource that 1:06:16.720,1:06:20.960 especially like if you until you have a 1:06:18.880,1:06:25.760 product like a real product market 1:06:20.960,1:06:28.799 um so i think it's advice 1:06:25.760,1:06:32.880 is easy what's harder is 1:06:28.799,1:06:32.880 tell sharing how you navigated the stuff 1:06:33.359,1:06:36.000 i think it would be cool to see the 1:06:34.480,1:06:36.480 podcast you guys do so you're basically 1:06:36.000,1:06:39.520 going to be 1:06:36.480,1:06:41.359 talking about the products that you're 1:06:39.520,1:06:44.640 building and kind of a 1:06:41.359,1:06:46.079 behind-the-scenes kind of a deal yep 1:06:44.640,1:06:48.960 yeah like today we were even talking 1:06:46.079,1:06:51.200 about um like hiring engineers 1:06:48.960,1:06:53.119 like remote and how that's changed even 1:06:51.200,1:06:58.480 over the last like five years 1:06:53.119,1:07:01.200 um and talking about 1:06:58.480,1:07:02.720 distribution strategies in marketing uh 1:07:01.200,1:07:04.240 he's coming from 1:07:02.720,1:07:06.079 he's technical like and that's part of 1:07:04.240,1:07:08.319 what what i love about him is like he's 1:07:06.079,1:07:11.280 a non-technical founder but he's he's 1:07:08.319,1:07:12.400 you talk to him he understands the tech 1:07:11.280,1:07:15.119 um 1:07:12.400,1:07:16.160 and i come from the tech and product 1:07:15.119,1:07:17.359 where i've 1:07:16.160,1:07:19.359 basically just been trying to like 1:07:17.359,1:07:20.960 befriend people who are really good at 1:07:19.359,1:07:22.160 marketing in part through i'm hoping 1:07:20.960,1:07:24.640 through osmosis 1:07:22.160,1:07:26.240 and like conversations of like you know 1:07:24.640,1:07:27.520 these are the things i love talking to 1:07:26.240,1:07:28.799 people who are good at stuff that i 1:07:27.520,1:07:31.599 really want to learn 1:07:28.799,1:07:33.119 um that's awesome so i think the podcast 1:07:31.599,1:07:35.599 should be a fun form where 1:07:33.119,1:07:37.280 i expect he will be drilling me and 1:07:35.599,1:07:38.559 grilling me and holding me accountable 1:07:37.280,1:07:39.920 for some stuff which we could do as 1:07:38.559,1:07:40.880 friends but it's probably more fun to do 1:07:39.920,1:07:45.359 it 1:07:40.880,1:07:47.280 publicly that's cool yeah i've um yeah i 1:07:45.359,1:07:51.760 started listening to his um 1:07:47.280,1:07:54.000 life uh profitably podcast and yeah 1:07:51.760,1:07:54.799 i really like it like he's on this whole 1:07:54.000,1:07:57.359 you know 1:07:54.799,1:07:58.960 mindfulness thing and he talks about you 1:07:57.359,1:08:00.400 know with a lot of people about a lot of 1:07:58.960,1:08:03.280 interesting stuff and 1:08:00.400,1:08:04.000 i'm kind of on a similar kick i guess 1:08:03.280,1:08:07.440 with like 1:08:04.000,1:08:09.039 mindfulness and you know all that stuff 1:08:07.440,1:08:11.280 meditation oh i saw you were looking for 1:08:09.039,1:08:11.810 like psychedelic trips in oregon for a 1:08:11.280,1:08:14.000 friend 1:08:11.810,1:08:16.640 [Laughter] 1:08:14.000,1:08:18.400 asking for a friend yeah exactly yeah i 1:08:16.640,1:08:20.719 keep hearing about psychedelics on 1:08:18.400,1:08:23.120 podcasts and stuff and i'm like wow 1:08:20.719,1:08:24.319 oh my goodness maybe rogan i think 1:08:23.120,1:08:27.679 brought that to the 1:08:24.319,1:08:30.640 masses i think so are you a rogan fan 1:08:27.679,1:08:31.920 i i i found a lot of the people he's 1:08:30.640,1:08:33.679 brought on really interesting 1:08:31.920,1:08:35.279 yeah and he to me strikes me as like a 1:08:33.679,1:08:38.319 thoughtful interesting guy 1:08:35.279,1:08:39.040 he's very polarizing um which is fine i 1:08:38.319,1:08:42.480 guess 1:08:39.040,1:08:43.839 uh so yeah like i again i'm not a 1:08:42.480,1:08:46.640 unless it's someone who i'm interested 1:08:43.839,1:08:47.520 in hearing then i probably won't listen 1:08:46.640,1:08:49.440 to it i think like 1:08:47.520,1:08:50.839 like everyone else i watched the elon 1:08:49.440,1:08:53.279 musk interview 1:08:50.839,1:08:53.600 yeah um and there's been a few other 1:08:53.279,1:08:55.679 like 1:08:53.600,1:08:57.759 really interesting characters yeah but 1:08:55.679,1:08:59.600 uh yeah it's kind of wild i think he had 1:08:57.759,1:09:01.359 dave chappelle on today 1:08:59.600,1:09:03.040 i just noticed but but like dave 1:09:01.359,1:09:05.520 chappelle just popped in like towards 1:09:03.040,1:09:08.159 the very end of the episode randomly 1:09:05.520,1:09:10.799 uh with this other dude and i think he 1:09:08.159,1:09:12.880 did a couple shows actually in austin 1:09:10.799,1:09:14.159 which i had seen i had seen that online 1:09:12.880,1:09:15.679 like a week ago and i was like oh man i 1:09:14.159,1:09:19.199 gotta make it down to that 1:09:15.679,1:09:22.719 but i didn't yeah um so 1:09:19.199,1:09:25.279 but uh yeah he's a beast um 1:09:22.719,1:09:26.080 but uh anyways ben it's been fun i 1:09:25.279,1:09:28.480 appreciate it 1:09:26.080,1:09:29.679 dude no thanks so much for for having me 1:09:28.480,1:09:32.239 on here and i think uh 1:09:29.679,1:09:35.920 it'll be fun to at some point you can 1:09:32.239,1:09:37.679 flip flip the tables 1:09:35.920,1:09:39.120 questions that sounds good man where is 1:09:37.679,1:09:40.560 the best place for people to find you 1:09:39.120,1:09:46.960 online 1:09:40.560,1:09:46.960 uh skinnyinbald.com awesome