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#95 Ben Fisher Helps 7-Figure eCommerce Stores Bend Shopify To Their Will

Ben co-founded CartHook, a customizable eCommerce checkout that’s is on track to exceed $1 Billion in processing in 2020.

He loves to help eCommerce brands scale to millions and achieve their fullest potential, and is currently working on something in the B2B/Wholesale space.

Twitter: https://twitter.com/skinnyandbald

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/skinnyandbald/

Transcript
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so i've i'd started off building a

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product specifically for retailers

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because that's what i know

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and love and then i kept wholesale one

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of those retailers was like oh i'd love

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this for my b2b

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business and that's what got me looking

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at shopify

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[Music]

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ben how you doing sir welcome to the

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program

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thank you for having me man absolutely

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nice to have uh

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internet friends yeah cool internet

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friends

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um so what uh what have you been working

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on lately what's

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uh what's top of mind for you

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oh that's a good question so um

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so long story short

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i left kart hook about two years ago and

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since then i've been exploring

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other b2b sas companies

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in e-commerce i've been consulting as

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like a fractional cto for subscription

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e-commerce brands i've been working with

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one in the city for a while

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um and just figuring out like a

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different niche

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and market that that i'm interested in

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trying to build a solution for within

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like a similar

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we'll call it mid-market e-commerce

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brands and so

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um early on was looking at

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retail which is what our market is for

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for cart hook and

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what i'd say my own a lot of my own

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personal experience has been

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was around like tools for retailers and

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performance marketers who sell retail

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and over the last like six months i've

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been getting into wholesale in b2b

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and looking around like what exists or

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doesn't

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um yeah so that i have a product that

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one brand's been using for the last like

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nine months

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and uh have been trying to find other

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merchants who are like them

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i think it's interesting like i've been

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i've gone down i've gone through this

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process several times at this point

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uh with multiple brands and b2b done one

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b to c

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and um i'd say like this time around

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i've tried to be really intentional

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around the price point of the product

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one of the things i know jordan's i

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think jordan's been on on your on your

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podcast

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one of the things that we learned

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realized early on was just the power of

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the price point

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around the types of merchants that

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you're working with and i think one of

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the things that

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i've really enjoyed is working with

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brands who you know they're doing decent

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revenue

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and so it's not a question i'm getting

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product market fit they're competent

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they're smart

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um they're not trying to find an app or

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a product to like

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solve their sales problems which i think

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especially in the

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like the shopify world you know you've

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that's like the the entrant price point

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is intended to be for a lot of

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aspirational stores which

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right you know you got everyone start

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somewhere and and i don't

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i'm not that but uh i'm an e-commerce

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merchant rather but

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for me as as an engineer and a product

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person i just really enjoy working with

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folks who already kind of have

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their product dialed dialed in and what

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they really want to do is

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figure out how to you know get onto the

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more we're called to more complicated

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problems around increasing ltv

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ways to really monetize or to build

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their existing business

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right does that make sense yeah that

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makes sense it's interesting with the

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the mid-market thing because i've been

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in the magento land for so long

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and i've been starting to kind of branch

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out to really kind of um

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dive into some of these other e-commerce

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platforms and communities and stuff and

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it's interesting to see

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um like the b2b thing was a huge

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emphasis

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for magento and i think that was their

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kind of differentiation like okay yeah

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shopify

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you know has you know the the smb side

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of the market you know that you know and

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and a lot of the b2c even even mid

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market it's like

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give us b2b at least like let this be

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our like big

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and so it's interesting to see other um

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platforms tackling that

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and i'm super curious to to jump into

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that on the cardhook thing i'm i'm

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really interested so you were

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in involved in that from the beginning

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you were the the cto the technical

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co-founder

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yeah so um i had built and sold a

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company

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in b2b sas now it's like many moons ago

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but it was like six years ago

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and i was figuring out what was going on

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even exist six years ago

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[Laughter]

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barely barely um

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yeah well that's a whole other story

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built like basically an only an early

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version of only fans

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uh we've been built running that company

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for 10 years

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and so it's been actually interesting

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seeing patreon and only fans come in

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because they've really added a lot of

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we'll call it um legitimacy to

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to the market um but yeah that's a whole

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nother story

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so i was a whole other episode on a

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whole other podcast

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yeah um and so i was actually some

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friends and i

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from new york we all had rented a house

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some new yorkers we rented a house for

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the winner

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in on venice beach like so it's like

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like five entrepreneurs

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we're all technical kind of nerdy guys

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we rented a

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rented a house because it's freaking

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cold in january and february

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and we worked from there and around that

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time i

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jordan and i randomly i think crossed

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paths by like he saw like an investor

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deck that i had

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posted online after we had sold the

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business and he was looking for a

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technical co-founder

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uh he had built sort of like a card

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abandonment product

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based off of his experience as an

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e-commerce merchant and i was figuring

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out

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what i wanted to work on next so

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initially it was just like a social

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conversation and then he was like

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hey i'll fly down to la uh next week and

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maybe we can talk in person

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nice and so i was like i like this

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this is good yeah and um you know so

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from that point on that you know the

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rest is as they say that say history

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about nine months into that brand we

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identified the opportunity

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within the shopify space in part based

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off of what we were seeing with our

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first product

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in cart abandonment and doubled down on

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uh

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on the shopify opportunity had raised a

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little bit of money from friends and

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family

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um and yeah no it's yeah it's

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it's a super successful uh product yeah

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and so then you kind of decided

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to about two years ago you kind of

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wanted to build

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something fresh like something

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greenfield is that sort of the

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yeah i mean i won't get i won't get into

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the details of it but i'll say is that

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um like things are all good between

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jordan and i think whenever

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you have two people building a business

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and at the time it was because i was the

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only person in new york and we

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had intended to build a remote company

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but it wasn't honestly remote we had an

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office in portland oregon

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where where jordan's based and then our

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first engineer who

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um we really built the team around he's

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awesome uh

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rock he's based in slovenia and so i was

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the person in between portland oregon

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and slovenia

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and i would say that the transition

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of just figuring out how to make

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communication work um

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you know there were a lot of things we

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learned a lot i

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i can't speak for for him but know i'm

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still an owner of

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of the kart hook business i'm still

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involved jordan and i still talk

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yeah not as much as as we used to but

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you know we're still friends

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yeah um and so thank you that's awesome

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yeah we actually that's the saga yeah no

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that makes sense

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it's funny because on the podcast we

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actually talked about how there was sort

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of two different offices

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and it was sort of remote-ish in that

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sense but not really distributed

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and that they recently have sort of gone

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more fully distributed and stuff like

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that

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and and that transition is a tough

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transition to make

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um but uh yeah but but yeah it's uh

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it's a huge success with that with that

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product and um

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so uh so b2b sas and and and b2b ecom

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and wholesale uh in the shop so this is

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news to me that like shot

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is shop are people starting to tackle

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this space in shopify

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that's what i've been trying to

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understand honestly i think

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the i mean hey they they acquired

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handshake for close to

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from at least in the publications it

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says about 100 million dollars

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a couple years ago right and so

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you know i've been trying to just orient

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myself around

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opportunities in wholesale in b2b it's

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i looked at cbd i looked at high risk

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payment processing i was

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basically just looking at areas of

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e-commerce that are not that not

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everyone

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and their mom is like trying to compete

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over

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i think unless you're going to raise a

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bunch of money

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it's you know it's a tough business and

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you become competing on margins and it's

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not one that i necessarily think that

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i'm

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best suited to start another company

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around uh or want to

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unless you're going to raise a bunch of

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money which is not my intent so yeah

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did you see that you mentioned payment

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processing did you see the thing

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with uh twilio recently like a b

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tested stripe against a bunch of

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different payment processors and saw

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like a 10 lift in authorizations

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um against all these other payment

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processors

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i thought it was i just saw it yeah

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twilio did it

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um and they saw this this pretty

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significant

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uh improvement in no as far as i

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understand it's just straight up testing

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the payment processor itself as far as

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what it can authorize

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um and i thought that was interesting um

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i also was looking at one of the you you

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read a lot of articles and you post them

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yeah on your on your nuzzle right is

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that the yeah

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yeah yeah and um i was checking out some

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of those and one of the articles was

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initially talked about how you know

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b2b customers want to pay on terms

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right they might want to finance a

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payment using their

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inventory financing and things like that

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so

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that feels like um you know kind of a

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problem to be solved you know

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yeah and i think at least within b2b

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it there's a bunch of different type of

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b2b businesses

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and so as with anything it's like how do

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you eat or eat an elephant

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it's like one bite at a time i honestly

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i actually don't even know if that's the

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expression it's probably something

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around

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something like that if you were to if

0:10:39.680,0:10:42.800
you were to eat an elephant it probably

0:10:41.040,0:10:44.880
should be one bite at a time regardless

0:10:42.800,0:10:46.720
of whether or not that's the expression

0:10:44.880,0:10:48.399
um but you have yeah you have like

0:10:46.720,0:10:51.680
financing terms there's net

0:10:48.399,0:10:53.200
f uh net 30 pay a half up front and so

0:10:51.680,0:10:56.560
it's actually not clear to me as

0:10:53.200,0:10:58.160
an engineer is exactly what

0:10:56.560,0:11:00.160
how people are using the shopify

0:10:58.160,0:11:04.240
platform for wholesale

0:11:00.160,0:11:05.519
um i've been going through compiling all

0:11:04.240,0:11:07.440
the different apps trying to

0:11:05.519,0:11:08.720
just understand and familiarize myself

0:11:07.440,0:11:11.120
with the

0:11:08.720,0:11:12.959
market you also have these marked actual

0:11:11.120,0:11:16.320
marketplaces like fair

0:11:12.959,0:11:19.360
um jeweler miracle

0:11:16.320,0:11:22.800
there's like the their product for

0:11:19.360,0:11:24.399
new order is another one uh which it was

0:11:22.800,0:11:24.720
interesting so because my girlfriend so

0:11:24.399,0:11:27.360
she

0:11:24.720,0:11:28.160
owns she's a home decor designer and

0:11:27.360,0:11:30.399
sells retail

0:11:28.160,0:11:32.079
and wholesale so i i will say i started

0:11:30.399,0:11:33.040
randomly dating the right person during

0:11:32.079,0:11:34.480
a pandemic

0:11:33.040,0:11:36.160
in part because like you're talking

0:11:34.480,0:11:38.399
about

0:11:36.160,0:11:39.839
i'm just yeah yeah i'm not doing market

0:11:38.399,0:11:42.000
research you're not part of a market

0:11:39.839,0:11:43.920
research opportunity i promise

0:11:42.000,0:11:45.680
right yeah no totally well then she's

0:11:43.920,0:11:46.079
like well can you make my facebook pixel

0:11:45.680,0:11:49.200
work

0:11:46.079,0:11:50.320
for for my instagrams i was like oh yes

0:11:49.200,0:11:52.720
i can do that

0:11:50.320,0:11:55.040
i was like i might not be handy at home

0:11:52.720,0:11:56.399
but i i can at least fix your tech and i

0:11:55.040,0:11:59.120
can get your your

0:11:56.399,0:12:00.720
your facebook pixel working right um but

0:11:59.120,0:12:01.760
no it's fascinating because you know

0:12:00.720,0:12:04.800
she's

0:12:01.760,0:12:07.040
she sells through like anthropology and

0:12:04.800,0:12:08.800
but also through her own site and her

0:12:07.040,0:12:10.240
site's on squarespace so she's selling

0:12:08.800,0:12:13.519
wholesale through squarespace

0:12:10.240,0:12:15.360
and i'm like i'm like wait what um but

0:12:13.519,0:12:16.639
i've i've since found several other

0:12:15.360,0:12:17.760
people who sell wholesale through

0:12:16.639,0:12:20.800
squarespace

0:12:17.760,0:12:22.000
and so it's just like with her she's a

0:12:20.800,0:12:26.079
designer so

0:12:22.000,0:12:28.240
we'll call it um the

0:12:26.079,0:12:29.920
ability to merchandise a cart really

0:12:28.240,0:12:31.519
matters a lot where it's not like you're

0:12:29.920,0:12:32.959
buying a bunch of line items

0:12:31.519,0:12:35.519
you really you're putting together a

0:12:32.959,0:12:37.760
season or a collection of products that

0:12:35.519,0:12:38.639
you really want to purchase together so

0:12:37.760,0:12:40.240
when you're working with like an

0:12:38.639,0:12:40.800
interior designer they're buying the

0:12:40.240,0:12:44.800
entire

0:12:40.800,0:12:46.560
ensemble not just uh a commodity so

0:12:44.800,0:12:48.320
what i've learned in wholesale is and

0:12:46.560,0:12:50.880
i'm still learning so much to learn

0:12:48.320,0:12:52.800
is that it really depends on the type of

0:12:50.880,0:12:53.440
wholesale business and like what you're

0:12:52.800,0:12:56.160
selling

0:12:53.440,0:12:58.240
is it mid-market or mid-tier is it

0:12:56.160,0:13:00.160
luxury with the price point

0:12:58.240,0:13:02.480
um because like there's certain things

0:13:00.160,0:13:03.360
like fair that from what i understand

0:13:02.480,0:13:06.800
really

0:13:03.360,0:13:08.720
they're geared towards lower price point

0:13:06.800,0:13:10.079
products so if you're a luxury product

0:13:08.720,0:13:12.079
you're probably not

0:13:10.079,0:13:13.440
from just a brand perspective going to

0:13:12.079,0:13:15.440
be on something like fair

0:13:13.440,0:13:16.720
so i could talk all day about this stuff

0:13:15.440,0:13:18.480
but it's

0:13:16.720,0:13:20.560
i'm trying to understand i'm trying to

0:13:18.480,0:13:22.959
educate myself yeah

0:13:20.560,0:13:23.839
the wholesale yeah yeah you're in that

0:13:22.959,0:13:27.040
building and

0:13:23.839,0:13:28.160
and uh market research phase um which is

0:13:27.040,0:13:31.839
a cool

0:13:28.160,0:13:32.240
cool phase um what would you say like to

0:13:31.839,0:13:34.320
answer

0:13:32.240,0:13:35.519
yeah yeah i was going to answer any

0:13:34.320,0:13:36.320
questions around like what i'm working

0:13:35.519,0:13:38.720
on

0:13:36.320,0:13:40.079
so i've i started off building a product

0:13:38.720,0:13:40.880
specifically for retailers because

0:13:40.079,0:13:44.240
that's what i know

0:13:40.880,0:13:45.920
and love and then i kept wholesaling one

0:13:44.240,0:13:47.040
of those retailers was like oh i'd love

0:13:45.920,0:13:48.880
this for my b2b

0:13:47.040,0:13:50.079
business and that's what got me looking

0:13:48.880,0:13:52.800
at shopify yeah

0:13:50.079,0:13:54.000
okay and so up until this point we've

0:13:52.800,0:13:55.839
basically been

0:13:54.000,0:13:56.880
trying to build as little as possible

0:13:55.839,0:13:58.800
and what we've been building could

0:13:56.880,0:14:01.199
potentially work for retail or

0:13:58.800,0:14:03.519
wholesale but i've gotten to that point

0:14:01.199,0:14:05.440
in the business where i'm like

0:14:03.519,0:14:06.959
i need to do a better job of identifying

0:14:05.440,0:14:08.639
what's the market segment

0:14:06.959,0:14:10.000
and the biggest thing for me is

0:14:08.639,0:14:10.560
understanding what's the segment of the

0:14:10.000,0:14:13.760
market

0:14:10.560,0:14:15.199
that does wholesale on shopify because

0:14:13.760,0:14:17.040
you know if we were to take this product

0:14:15.199,0:14:18.399
which i really i mean in terms of like

0:14:17.040,0:14:19.600
what are some of the variables to lock

0:14:18.399,0:14:21.040
in like i want to stay in shop the

0:14:19.600,0:14:22.240
shopify app ecosystem because i

0:14:21.040,0:14:25.839
understand it

0:14:22.240,0:14:27.600
um you know it's something that i'd say

0:14:25.839,0:14:29.199
like one of my unfair advantages just

0:14:27.600,0:14:30.560
because my experience and knowledge

0:14:29.199,0:14:33.199
around the apis

0:14:30.560,0:14:34.160
and just comfort level with how the tech

0:14:33.199,0:14:37.360
works

0:14:34.160,0:14:39.279
um but i need to make sure that it

0:14:37.360,0:14:42.839
aligns with is it is the

0:14:39.279,0:14:44.320
is the b2b segment a growing market in

0:14:42.839,0:14:46.560
shopify mm-hmm

0:14:44.320,0:14:47.680
so nice i don't think of any any

0:14:46.560,0:14:50.320
knowledge

0:14:47.680,0:14:52.480
no i mean i don't i'm trying to i'm kind

0:14:50.320,0:14:54.880
of i'm kind of curious i'm kind of an

0:14:52.480,0:14:55.760
observer of that you know this

0:14:54.880,0:14:57.600
phenomenon

0:14:55.760,0:14:59.680
and this trend in the market and i'm

0:14:57.600,0:15:02.720
trying to kind of wrap my

0:14:59.680,0:15:05.360
head around it as well i'm curious like

0:15:02.720,0:15:07.040
when you know they're selling b2b

0:15:05.360,0:15:08.480
through squarespace

0:15:07.040,0:15:10.160
because a lot of what i understand about

0:15:08.480,0:15:12.000
selling you know b2b and wholesale is

0:15:10.160,0:15:14.959
it's just all manual so it's just all

0:15:12.000,0:15:16.079
email and spreadsheets um so are they

0:15:14.959,0:15:18.800
essentially

0:15:16.079,0:15:20.399
you know using the website as like basic

0:15:18.800,0:15:24.079
lead generation

0:15:20.399,0:15:24.079
and then just doing everything manually

0:15:24.160,0:15:28.160
what's funny is i mean if you read the

0:15:25.600,0:15:28.720
marketing of any of these apps they they

0:15:28.160,0:15:31.040
all promise

0:15:28.720,0:15:32.560
they automate it for you so i think

0:15:31.040,0:15:33.040
you're right in terms of like from

0:15:32.560,0:15:34.800
everything

0:15:33.040,0:15:36.079
when i've dug in and for the merchants

0:15:34.800,0:15:37.199
i've spoken with around like

0:15:36.079,0:15:39.519
what are you spending your time and

0:15:37.199,0:15:42.000
money a lot of it's manual

0:15:39.519,0:15:43.279
exporting documents to interface with

0:15:42.000,0:15:46.560
quickbooks

0:15:43.279,0:15:51.279
you're dealing with um

0:15:46.560,0:15:51.279
yeah line sheets there's

0:15:52.880,0:15:56.480
as far as i can tell there is a lot of

0:15:54.399,0:15:58.480
manual labor except

0:15:56.480,0:15:59.839
but there's also a lot of apps that say

0:15:58.480,0:16:01.600
they they eliminate that

0:15:59.839,0:16:03.920
so i think it's one of those things

0:16:01.600,0:16:05.440
where my guess is that

0:16:03.920,0:16:07.040
there's a bunch of different products

0:16:05.440,0:16:10.240
that solve that try to be

0:16:07.040,0:16:12.639
fairly broad solutions um

0:16:10.240,0:16:14.399
and they all kind of accomplish some

0:16:12.639,0:16:17.040
things

0:16:14.399,0:16:18.320
yeah and do you want to um talk at all

0:16:17.040,0:16:22.240
about the product you're building

0:16:18.320,0:16:24.399
is it kind of in stealth mode or i mean

0:16:22.240,0:16:26.639
it's not really it's not in stealth mode

0:16:24.399,0:16:29.440
um

0:16:26.639,0:16:30.480
it's as i said part of the challenge has

0:16:29.440,0:16:33.040
been

0:16:30.480,0:16:34.399
clarifying the target audience so what i

0:16:33.040,0:16:34.720
can tell you and i think honestly

0:16:34.399,0:16:36.320
because

0:16:34.720,0:16:37.759
otherwise i'll just confuse people the

0:16:36.320,0:16:38.480
the simplest so it's like know your

0:16:37.759,0:16:40.160
audience

0:16:38.480,0:16:42.800
um the simplest thing i can say is i've

0:16:40.160,0:16:45.440
been exploring tools to improve

0:16:42.800,0:16:46.560
repeat purchase rates for existing

0:16:45.440,0:16:49.440
customers

0:16:46.560,0:16:50.079
so for example if you are selling

0:16:49.440,0:16:53.600
perishable

0:16:50.079,0:16:54.480
goods um and once you've acquired a

0:16:53.600,0:16:56.399
customer the

0:16:54.480,0:16:58.320
natural expectation is that you want to

0:16:56.399,0:17:00.639
then sell to them again

0:16:58.320,0:17:01.519
so how do you remove the friction of

0:17:00.639,0:17:02.800
that uh

0:17:01.519,0:17:05.120
oftentimes they're sending email

0:17:02.800,0:17:05.839
marketing and so one of our products has

0:17:05.120,0:17:08.720
been

0:17:05.839,0:17:09.760
to um or the products really was focused

0:17:08.720,0:17:12.720
on how to

0:17:09.760,0:17:13.439
effectively pre-building a merchandise

0:17:12.720,0:17:15.120
cart

0:17:13.439,0:17:16.839
and making it so you can buy it with a

0:17:15.120,0:17:19.439
click

0:17:16.839,0:17:20.079
um right so how do you eliminate the

0:17:19.439,0:17:23.600
friction

0:17:20.079,0:17:25.199
and make it make it easy to personalize

0:17:23.600,0:17:26.480
a product for someone who's previously

0:17:25.199,0:17:28.880
purchased from you

0:17:26.480,0:17:29.840
and then they can make some tweaks to

0:17:28.880,0:17:32.240
customize it

0:17:29.840,0:17:33.760
to exactly what they want and because

0:17:32.240,0:17:36.240
otherwise you'd be doing that through

0:17:33.760,0:17:37.760
email exchanges um and surprisingly a

0:17:36.240,0:17:38.240
lot of this is not stuff that you can do

0:17:37.760,0:17:41.360
on this

0:17:38.240,0:17:44.559
the actual native shopify platform

0:17:41.360,0:17:46.000
um right and so so this is different

0:17:44.559,0:17:48.480
than from your coupon

0:17:46.000,0:17:49.760
um coupon app that you're building for a

0:17:48.480,0:17:52.559
b testing coupons

0:17:49.760,0:17:53.520
oh yeah the the life of a self-funded

0:17:52.559,0:17:56.720
company

0:17:53.520,0:18:01.600
got a lot of items on the fire i

0:17:56.720,0:18:03.360
i have two irons i have the um

0:18:01.600,0:18:05.200
all of my consulting or the lesson since

0:18:03.360,0:18:08.080
leaving carthage and focused on

0:18:05.200,0:18:09.280
we're getting to know as an engineer

0:18:08.080,0:18:10.640
part of what i've learned is like doing

0:18:09.280,0:18:12.880
a better job of

0:18:10.640,0:18:15.360
seeing the world view of a merchant and

0:18:12.880,0:18:17.120
so my intent for doing the fractional

0:18:15.360,0:18:19.760
ctoing with brands was

0:18:17.120,0:18:21.280
on one hand yes cash flow but also to

0:18:19.760,0:18:24.640
just really have a better sense of

0:18:21.280,0:18:26.240
as a engineer who's working and building

0:18:24.640,0:18:28.160
tools for e-commerce brands like

0:18:26.240,0:18:30.080
what are the internal struggles and like

0:18:28.160,0:18:33.039
what's the world look like

0:18:30.080,0:18:34.160
from uh the perspective of these brands

0:18:33.039,0:18:36.320
and so

0:18:34.160,0:18:38.000
as i have tried to keep myself from

0:18:36.320,0:18:39.440
doing a lot of engineering myself

0:18:38.000,0:18:41.600
and so we got to a point where i needed

0:18:39.440,0:18:43.120
to hire an engineer and since

0:18:41.600,0:18:45.679
the revenue i'd say the revenue is

0:18:43.120,0:18:48.559
fairly negligible for this product

0:18:45.679,0:18:49.840
um what i've done is i have effectively

0:18:48.559,0:18:52.799
built like a boutique

0:18:49.840,0:18:53.760
shopify app agency and i'm building that

0:18:52.799,0:18:56.799
coupon app

0:18:53.760,0:18:58.320
for for for a company um and i'm

0:18:56.799,0:19:00.080
basically responsible for helping them

0:18:58.320,0:19:00.960
launch it and that's a way that i'm able

0:19:00.080,0:19:04.480
to

0:19:00.960,0:19:06.160
uh pay for for the for the engineering

0:19:04.480,0:19:07.600
that like the engineer that i have

0:19:06.160,0:19:10.000
gotcha that's awesome

0:19:07.600,0:19:11.200
yeah um yeah i've heard it's really like

0:19:10.000,0:19:12.720
you were talking about kind of the

0:19:11.200,0:19:14.160
unfair advantage you have around knowing

0:19:12.720,0:19:16.880
the apis

0:19:14.160,0:19:18.640
i've heard it's pretty hard to and i

0:19:16.880,0:19:21.280
recently helped somebody hire like a

0:19:18.640,0:19:23.600
like an app developer but like i've

0:19:21.280,0:19:26.720
heard it's pretty hard to find

0:19:23.600,0:19:28.880
developers that really know the api well

0:19:26.720,0:19:30.320
that like the api is great it's well

0:19:28.880,0:19:32.720
documented

0:19:30.320,0:19:34.320
um but that i don't know that there's a

0:19:32.720,0:19:37.760
lot of ins and outs to it there's

0:19:34.320,0:19:39.120
there's changes you got to keep up with

0:19:37.760,0:19:40.880
when you want to do a lot of heavy

0:19:39.120,0:19:42.480
lifting there's

0:19:40.880,0:19:44.720
you know complications and stuff like

0:19:42.480,0:19:44.720
that

0:19:45.360,0:19:49.039
yes yeah i would say yes to all of that

0:19:47.679,0:19:51.840
it it's

0:19:49.039,0:19:53.679
like a lot of things are let's call it

0:19:51.840,0:19:54.720
like simple things are fairly easy to

0:19:53.679,0:19:57.440
accomplish

0:19:54.720,0:19:58.400
where things get complicated or when you

0:19:57.440,0:20:00.160
start dealing

0:19:58.400,0:20:03.360
trying to tackle more complicated

0:20:00.160,0:20:06.960
problems um

0:20:03.360,0:20:08.559
and part of it depends on

0:20:06.960,0:20:09.840
the permissions available to you as an

0:20:08.559,0:20:11.440
app like now there's like four different

0:20:09.840,0:20:13.520
types of apps you can make custom maps

0:20:11.440,0:20:16.720
you can make private apps you can make

0:20:13.520,0:20:18.559
unlisted public apps um all of which

0:20:16.720,0:20:20.000
shopify has a policy around how much of

0:20:18.559,0:20:21.760
a rev share they'll take

0:20:20.000,0:20:24.000
which is considerable right even if

0:20:21.760,0:20:26.320
you're not in the app store

0:20:24.000,0:20:27.280
um and similar to apple although i just

0:20:26.320,0:20:28.799
read that apple

0:20:27.280,0:20:30.799
dropped their revenue they dropped their

0:20:28.799,0:20:32.840
rates right yeah yeah if you're making

0:20:30.799,0:20:35.919
less than a million dollars a year

0:20:32.840,0:20:37.120
um so but you know that's that's any

0:20:35.919,0:20:40.880
marketplace

0:20:37.120,0:20:40.880
um and so

0:20:41.360,0:20:46.720
the apis are fairly straightforward but

0:20:44.880,0:20:48.159
there's certain apis you can't use

0:20:46.720,0:20:49.840
right like there's certain apis you can

0:20:48.159,0:20:52.400
only use if

0:20:49.840,0:20:53.120
you have if the customer themselves has

0:20:52.400,0:20:55.440
is on like

0:20:53.120,0:20:57.440
plus another early example was you

0:20:55.440,0:21:00.799
couldn't do dynamic coupons

0:20:57.440,0:21:02.640
early on so if you were someone like

0:21:00.799,0:21:04.240
uh you know early for card abandonment

0:21:02.640,0:21:06.000
we couldn't generate like one-time

0:21:04.240,0:21:06.799
coupons for people because we didn't

0:21:06.000,0:21:08.799
have

0:21:06.799,0:21:09.840
like unless you were in plus but i think

0:21:08.799,0:21:12.159
clavio

0:21:09.840,0:21:13.520
was able to get permission to do it

0:21:12.159,0:21:15.200
because they were so big

0:21:13.520,0:21:17.520
so you know they're they're those types

0:21:15.200,0:21:19.280
of those things are challenging where

0:21:17.520,0:21:20.559
what's in the api docs isn't necessarily

0:21:19.280,0:21:23.919
what you can do

0:21:20.559,0:21:25.360
um right and there's certain things that

0:21:23.919,0:21:26.880
are just sales channels and then what

0:21:25.360,0:21:27.760
constitutes a sales channel well it

0:21:26.880,0:21:30.400
can't be on

0:21:27.760,0:21:32.480
a website it needs to be like through

0:21:30.400,0:21:35.840
like but you're buying through

0:21:32.480,0:21:37.600
uh a game and so it just it becomes a

0:21:35.840,0:21:40.080
little bit complicated anticipating

0:21:37.600,0:21:41.360
what are the issues it's i think of it

0:21:40.080,0:21:42.400
kind of like you're building on someone

0:21:41.360,0:21:44.960
else's house

0:21:42.400,0:21:46.799
yeah and you don't necessarily know what

0:21:44.960,0:21:49.120
their electrical looks like and

0:21:46.799,0:21:50.799
and like a socket could just disappear

0:21:49.120,0:21:53.200
um

0:21:50.799,0:21:54.240
yeah there's always that that platform

0:21:53.200,0:21:56.799
risk

0:21:54.240,0:21:57.440
um which like do you think about that

0:21:56.799,0:22:00.559
like do you

0:21:57.440,0:22:02.000
do you think that building a business on

0:22:00.559,0:22:05.440
top of another platform

0:22:02.000,0:22:06.880
is pretty risky i mean hey

0:22:05.440,0:22:08.640
there's pros and cons i think the

0:22:06.880,0:22:10.320
biggest risk in general is not building

0:22:08.640,0:22:13.039
something that customers care about

0:22:10.320,0:22:13.600
right and as an engineer i've spent a

0:22:13.039,0:22:17.280
long

0:22:13.600,0:22:20.720
period of my life doing that right um

0:22:17.280,0:22:23.360
i think the

0:22:20.720,0:22:24.320
and so for me as a as someone but i

0:22:23.360,0:22:25.760
think part of what's been

0:22:24.320,0:22:28.159
interesting to me and i mean you're an

0:22:25.760,0:22:30.559
engineer uh i'd be curious to hear

0:22:28.159,0:22:31.200
like how your perspective has evolved

0:22:30.559,0:22:32.480
but like

0:22:31.200,0:22:33.840
one of the things i realized and i'll

0:22:32.480,0:22:36.240
say part of the challenge that i even

0:22:33.840,0:22:38.240
ran up against in in part hook was i was

0:22:36.240,0:22:38.640
transitioning from being an engineer to

0:22:38.240,0:22:40.640
being

0:22:38.640,0:22:42.640
head of product because my background is

0:22:40.640,0:22:44.640
as a designer and a programmer i studied

0:22:42.640,0:22:46.240
english in college um but i've been a

0:22:44.640,0:22:46.720
programmer since since i was in fifth

0:22:46.240,0:22:48.240
grade

0:22:46.720,0:22:50.640
and i worked at a tech company during

0:22:48.240,0:22:53.440
the first.com boom so like i've just

0:22:50.640,0:22:55.280
always loved with computers and building

0:22:53.440,0:22:56.960
stuff and like shooting music videos and

0:22:55.280,0:23:01.039
using computers to be creative

0:22:56.960,0:23:04.320
yeah um i'm not

0:23:01.039,0:23:07.360
like the type of person who sits like

0:23:04.320,0:23:08.640
goes and you know majors necessarily in

0:23:07.360,0:23:11.280
computer science

0:23:08.640,0:23:12.000
um i've built several computers i i

0:23:11.280,0:23:13.919
really just love

0:23:12.000,0:23:15.360
making stuff and make solving problems

0:23:13.919,0:23:18.400
and so i think

0:23:15.360,0:23:20.080
the the challenge there is figuring out

0:23:18.400,0:23:22.320
like some people would call that a

0:23:20.080,0:23:24.960
product role um

0:23:22.320,0:23:26.559
some people would consider that a in

0:23:24.960,0:23:28.240
like an engineering role

0:23:26.559,0:23:29.600
um the truth is early on i would do the

0:23:28.240,0:23:30.320
designing i'd do the i'd do the

0:23:29.600,0:23:32.240
programming

0:23:30.320,0:23:33.760
and i would be also the business owner

0:23:32.240,0:23:35.200
and so for me it was super easy

0:23:33.760,0:23:37.039
especially when the technologies were

0:23:35.200,0:23:38.159
simpler to be able to have all those

0:23:37.039,0:23:39.760
hats

0:23:38.159,0:23:41.200
but i will say that like the

0:23:39.760,0:23:43.679
specialization that's

0:23:41.200,0:23:44.720
like you have to be fairly specialized

0:23:43.679,0:23:47.840
um just to like

0:23:44.720,0:23:48.640
stay up to date with how front end has

0:23:47.840,0:23:52.400
evolved

0:23:48.640,0:23:53.520
as well as back end and so i mean that

0:23:52.400,0:23:56.400
that's a

0:23:53.520,0:23:57.840
a bigger conversation um and i know you

0:23:56.400,0:23:59.279
recently had a conversation about

0:23:57.840,0:24:01.919
specialization and

0:23:59.279,0:24:03.200
in general generalization yeah yeah yeah

0:24:01.919,0:24:04.000
that's an issue i listened to fewer

0:24:03.200,0:24:06.480
episodes

0:24:04.000,0:24:07.440
to prepare for this nice man yeah or to

0:24:06.480,0:24:09.840
orient myself

0:24:07.440,0:24:11.360
yeah that's awesome man no it's uh it's

0:24:09.840,0:24:14.400
an interesting thing myself

0:24:11.360,0:24:16.080
like i um you know background as a

0:24:14.400,0:24:19.520
developer and then i started

0:24:16.080,0:24:21.840
building my own stuff and um you know

0:24:19.520,0:24:23.520
i learned a little bit of design and

0:24:21.840,0:24:24.880
then you kind of start using tailwind

0:24:23.520,0:24:28.240
and before you know it you know

0:24:24.880,0:24:32.080
stuff looks halfway decent and um

0:24:28.240,0:24:34.480
yeah like i think i'm i i'm good at um

0:24:32.080,0:24:35.440
kind of identifying the market need

0:24:34.480,0:24:37.360
building something

0:24:35.440,0:24:38.960
bringing all those skills together what

0:24:37.360,0:24:40.880
i'm not so good at

0:24:38.960,0:24:42.640
is then really like scaling the

0:24:40.880,0:24:44.400
technology like really focusing on the

0:24:42.640,0:24:47.120
technology it's like i have

0:24:44.400,0:24:48.799
enough of all of the skills to like get

0:24:47.120,0:24:51.600
something out the door

0:24:48.799,0:24:52.799
um but then i tend to stop really

0:24:51.600,0:24:55.600
iterating and

0:24:52.799,0:24:56.400
improving um the core product which you

0:24:55.600,0:25:00.080
gotta do

0:24:56.400,0:25:00.880
and uh you know i mean it's a tough

0:25:00.080,0:25:04.080
balance man

0:25:00.880,0:25:04.080
and you know i think

0:25:05.440,0:25:09.279
the the more i've learned and the more

0:25:06.880,0:25:09.279
i've done

0:25:10.720,0:25:16.320
it's it's gotten harder i think where

0:25:14.000,0:25:16.320
i've

0:25:17.840,0:25:20.799
especially i think it depends on

0:25:19.360,0:25:21.919
different learning styles and i imagine

0:25:20.799,0:25:24.799
especially if you're home so

0:25:21.919,0:25:26.400
homeschooling is it a daughter yeah we

0:25:24.799,0:25:29.039
have three we have three kids

0:25:26.400,0:25:30.400
two daughters oh my goodness okay yeah

0:25:29.039,0:25:33.039
no but i'm sure they all have different

0:25:30.400,0:25:35.200
learning styles

0:25:33.039,0:25:37.600
for me i'm very much a i'm a tactile

0:25:35.200,0:25:40.640
learner so like i learn by doing things

0:25:37.600,0:25:42.400
and so after having built like been

0:25:40.640,0:25:44.720
building products and stuff that weren't

0:25:42.400,0:25:46.000
like necessarily they were all there i'd

0:25:44.720,0:25:47.039
say admittedly i think most of the

0:25:46.000,0:25:49.520
products i've built

0:25:47.039,0:25:50.480
have been cool ideas um and they've been

0:25:49.520,0:25:52.559
useful and if you look through my

0:25:50.480,0:25:54.159
portfolio you'll like see

0:25:52.559,0:25:56.000
products i built just couldn't build

0:25:54.159,0:25:58.400
that wasn't necessarily a business

0:25:56.000,0:26:00.080
um they like scratched on old itch like

0:25:58.400,0:26:01.679
after college built an app to pre-buy

0:26:00.080,0:26:02.799
drinks in bulk from bars

0:26:01.679,0:26:04.960
this is around the same time that

0:26:02.799,0:26:05.679
groupon launched and i was like this is

0:26:04.960,0:26:07.120
just cool

0:26:05.679,0:26:09.279
and like i have a bunch of friends we're

0:26:07.120,0:26:12.559
all poor just graduated college

0:26:09.279,0:26:16.320
yeah um and so

0:26:12.559,0:26:18.559
the but to really get far in anything

0:26:16.320,0:26:19.360
you need to be able to be fast enough to

0:26:18.559,0:26:22.480
build

0:26:19.360,0:26:24.400
while also figuring out

0:26:22.480,0:26:25.520
what to build you need to be able to

0:26:24.400,0:26:26.799
build it and then and

0:26:25.520,0:26:28.880
and the context switching at least for

0:26:26.799,0:26:31.520
me is really challenging and

0:26:28.880,0:26:34.320
sometimes especially as an engineer like

0:26:31.520,0:26:36.320
i'm comfortable building stuff

0:26:34.320,0:26:37.840
but i know i especially haven't gone and

0:26:36.320,0:26:38.880
built several businesses at this point i

0:26:37.840,0:26:40.960
know that's

0:26:38.880,0:26:42.080
dangerous for me to get too involved in

0:26:40.960,0:26:43.440
the building because

0:26:42.080,0:26:45.120
at least there you can build clarity but

0:26:43.440,0:26:47.600
what i've also found is not

0:26:45.120,0:26:48.640
building is also really dangerous

0:26:47.600,0:26:50.720
because

0:26:48.640,0:26:51.840
you figure out a lot of the problems

0:26:50.720,0:26:53.200
yeah you

0:26:51.840,0:26:54.480
answer a lot of the questions building

0:26:53.200,0:26:55.440
stuff and thinking and working it

0:26:54.480,0:26:58.000
through and so

0:26:55.440,0:26:58.000
yeah um

0:26:59.360,0:27:03.360
trying to find some sort of balance

0:27:01.200,0:27:05.440
right is where i'm shaking out yeah

0:27:03.360,0:27:07.200
i've been i've been thinking a lot about

0:27:05.440,0:27:09.279
how to

0:27:07.200,0:27:10.880
identify like the thing that you

0:27:09.279,0:27:14.559
uniquely

0:27:10.880,0:27:16.159
are good at and love to do you know

0:27:14.559,0:27:18.240
and it's like i feel like i'll get

0:27:16.159,0:27:18.880
glimpses of it and i'll i'll move

0:27:18.240,0:27:20.559
towards it

0:27:18.880,0:27:22.880
and then i'll be like i don't know if

0:27:20.559,0:27:24.799
that's it um

0:27:22.880,0:27:26.720
and i think the the the people that

0:27:24.799,0:27:30.080
really take off i feel like they've

0:27:26.720,0:27:31.840
found that thing you know they found

0:27:30.080,0:27:33.919
that thing that they just love to do

0:27:31.840,0:27:36.240
and you know can just throw themselves

0:27:33.919,0:27:39.520
into it you know

0:27:36.240,0:27:41.600
well i think it's it's

0:27:39.520,0:27:43.039
part of the challenge there though is in

0:27:41.600,0:27:45.039
the

0:27:43.039,0:27:46.720
it depends on how you define that

0:27:45.039,0:27:47.279
success right is it commercial success

0:27:46.720,0:27:48.799
because

0:27:47.279,0:27:50.159
what matters is that the thing that you

0:27:48.799,0:27:51.120
care about or at least the thing that

0:27:50.159,0:27:52.640
you're making

0:27:51.120,0:27:54.559
whatever it is like you need to arrive

0:27:52.640,0:27:56.799
in a place where what you're making

0:27:54.559,0:27:58.640
also appeals to other people um and

0:27:56.799,0:27:59.679
that's in some ways like the difference

0:27:58.640,0:28:02.159
between art

0:27:59.679,0:28:03.600
and advertising uh like when i was

0:28:02.159,0:28:04.720
taking like when i was taking art

0:28:03.600,0:28:05.840
classes in college

0:28:04.720,0:28:07.120
there was always this like oh you're

0:28:05.840,0:28:09.360
working out you wanna you're in the

0:28:07.120,0:28:12.320
advertising program you're a sellout

0:28:09.360,0:28:13.520
um and you know it's the answer the

0:28:12.320,0:28:17.840
truth is somewhere in between

0:28:13.520,0:28:19.520
where you can't just make things

0:28:17.840,0:28:20.960
simply so they're a commercial success

0:28:19.520,0:28:24.880
on the flip side

0:28:20.960,0:28:27.279
um you know i think base camp is

0:28:24.880,0:28:28.480
has written enough about this yeah um

0:28:27.279,0:28:30.720
and actually so what i'm trying to do

0:28:28.480,0:28:33.279
these days is follow their shape up

0:28:30.720,0:28:34.480
process fairly fairly closely where nice

0:28:33.279,0:28:36.880
um it's

0:28:34.480,0:28:39.120
you know it it's not perfect it doesn't

0:28:36.880,0:28:41.840
work exactly with the way that i work

0:28:39.120,0:28:44.000
but it's at least provides a common

0:28:41.840,0:28:46.559
language to use with other engineers and

0:28:44.000,0:28:49.279
designers

0:28:46.559,0:28:51.840
that's really cool i've um i haven't

0:28:49.279,0:28:54.320
read the book but i've i've listened to

0:28:51.840,0:28:56.240
a couple mentions of it on podcasts and

0:28:54.320,0:28:58.799
i've seen some people talking about it

0:28:56.240,0:28:59.520
i feel like i get the the basic shape of

0:28:58.799,0:29:03.200
the

0:28:59.520,0:29:05.679
of the book um but um um

0:29:03.200,0:29:06.880
but uh but so what are some of the

0:29:05.679,0:29:08.799
aspects of that

0:29:06.880,0:29:12.320
kind of process for product development

0:29:08.799,0:29:14.399
that you're that you're using

0:29:12.320,0:29:16.240
well so and i think a lot of this comes

0:29:14.399,0:29:21.840
down to remote

0:29:16.240,0:29:23.760
which is the neat need to document stuff

0:29:21.840,0:29:25.760
which i would say is one of the

0:29:23.760,0:29:27.600
challenges i've experienced

0:29:25.760,0:29:28.799
with working with like in person

0:29:27.600,0:29:30.399
especially when you're combining in

0:29:28.799,0:29:32.559
person with remote

0:29:30.399,0:29:34.080
the amount of documentation that someone

0:29:32.559,0:29:36.320
who's remote needs

0:29:34.080,0:29:37.760
to be able to make sure that like

0:29:36.320,0:29:39.200
there's just a lot of documentation

0:29:37.760,0:29:40.000
because those are conversations you'd

0:29:39.200,0:29:42.399
otherwise be having

0:29:40.000,0:29:43.520
in person and in hallways and unless

0:29:42.399,0:29:45.360
it's documented

0:29:43.520,0:29:46.720
no one else is going to know about it

0:29:45.360,0:29:48.480
and so

0:29:46.720,0:29:49.760
for me what's been helpful about shape

0:29:48.480,0:29:51.760
up is

0:29:49.760,0:29:53.520
i've tried like a dozen variations of

0:29:51.760,0:29:54.559
different types of project specs and

0:29:53.520,0:29:56.720
scopes

0:29:54.559,0:29:58.159
um i took a course with heaton shaw that

0:29:56.720,0:30:00.159
he taught around like

0:29:58.159,0:30:01.840
how to do product manage like basically

0:30:00.159,0:30:03.440
how to like plan for product and put

0:30:01.840,0:30:04.399
together a product and build products so

0:30:03.440,0:30:06.080
you don't

0:30:04.399,0:30:08.880
how do you do like technical estimates

0:30:06.080,0:30:12.480
accurately um you don't

0:30:08.880,0:30:13.919
narrator you don't you don't right

0:30:12.480,0:30:15.520
well i i will say one of my biggest

0:30:13.919,0:30:16.640
takeaways though from even that course

0:30:15.520,0:30:20.080
was talking about like

0:30:16.640,0:30:21.840
if anyone as an engineer like do not ex

0:30:20.080,0:30:23.360
or let me ask someone who managed who

0:30:21.840,0:30:24.240
works with engineers and as an engineer

0:30:23.360,0:30:25.840
myself

0:30:24.240,0:30:27.600
it is unacceptable to hear that

0:30:25.840,0:30:29.360
something will take five days

0:30:27.600,0:30:31.360
if it's gonna take five days the scope

0:30:29.360,0:30:33.039
is not clear enough

0:30:31.360,0:30:34.399
i think and i i think you can make that

0:30:33.039,0:30:35.520
up you can make that argument

0:30:34.399,0:30:37.200
i mean i would even make that argument

0:30:35.520,0:30:39.440
if somebody's going to take more than

0:30:37.200,0:30:41.919
like four hours there's very few things

0:30:39.440,0:30:43.679
like you haven't defined it closely

0:30:41.919,0:30:46.559
enough totally and i think with shape

0:30:43.679,0:30:47.760
up what i appreciate about it um even

0:30:46.559,0:30:49.520
some of the feedback that i've gotten

0:30:47.760,0:30:51.600
from engineers that i've worked with is

0:30:49.520,0:30:53.279
they don't and i and that's like as an

0:30:51.600,0:30:54.559
engineer i try to put myself in there in

0:30:53.279,0:30:55.919
their shoes which is you don't want to

0:30:54.559,0:30:57.200
be micromanaged

0:30:55.919,0:30:59.200
right as soon as someone's feeling

0:30:57.200,0:31:00.799
micromanaged their brain shuts off

0:30:59.200,0:31:02.640
they're not thinking about how to solve

0:31:00.799,0:31:04.240
the problem they're thinking about

0:31:02.640,0:31:05.760
here are the 20 steps that i need to go

0:31:04.240,0:31:09.360
through and i think what shape

0:31:05.760,0:31:10.720
up advocates for is delegate

0:31:09.360,0:31:12.880
you know hey it's like delegating

0:31:10.720,0:31:14.320
responsibility for the the outcome

0:31:12.880,0:31:16.080
we need to define what's what's the

0:31:14.320,0:31:19.039
output and

0:31:16.080,0:31:20.559
how much effort is that output worth so

0:31:19.039,0:31:22.559
effectively it turns into a

0:31:20.559,0:31:24.080
we do not move deadlines we just change

0:31:22.559,0:31:26.000
scope and so

0:31:24.080,0:31:28.080
this is what the problem that should be

0:31:26.000,0:31:29.039
solved is and we have one week to solve

0:31:28.080,0:31:31.200
it

0:31:29.039,0:31:32.240
and as we're building it and working on

0:31:31.200,0:31:33.840
it there will be

0:31:32.240,0:31:36.080
bits and pieces of the scope that might

0:31:33.840,0:31:37.760
need to change but ultimately what

0:31:36.080,0:31:39.200
what you're responsible for is

0:31:37.760,0:31:42.000
delivering

0:31:39.200,0:31:42.799
solving the problem and then you as an

0:31:42.000,0:31:44.640
individual

0:31:42.799,0:31:46.559
can are allowed to create whatever

0:31:44.640,0:31:47.760
documentation you need for just yourself

0:31:46.559,0:31:50.480
and tasks

0:31:47.760,0:31:51.519
uh for yourself um i think that's where

0:31:50.480,0:31:53.360
i've gotten into a lot

0:31:51.519,0:31:55.360
like i like have i've had a virtual

0:31:53.360,0:31:57.440
assistant for eight years now

0:31:55.360,0:31:59.440
oh really i need to have a shared trello

0:31:57.440,0:32:00.799
board with like what is she working on

0:31:59.440,0:32:02.480
because otherwise i'll be thinking like

0:32:00.799,0:32:04.720
i don't

0:32:02.480,0:32:06.080
know like things cannot float in the

0:32:04.720,0:32:07.519
ether when you're working with a remote

0:32:06.080,0:32:08.960
team they have to be somewhere

0:32:07.519,0:32:10.080
so that you don't have to otherwise

0:32:08.960,0:32:10.640
you're going to be a pain in the ass

0:32:10.080,0:32:12.159
just like

0:32:10.640,0:32:14.080
following up with everyone asking how

0:32:12.159,0:32:16.159
are you done yet right

0:32:14.080,0:32:17.760
right that's interesting i've been i've

0:32:16.159,0:32:20.000
been going back and forth on the

0:32:17.760,0:32:22.159
on the virtual assistant thing recently

0:32:20.000,0:32:23.279
um is that has that worked out well for

0:32:22.159,0:32:24.240
you over the years i couldn't live

0:32:23.279,0:32:27.440
without without

0:32:24.240,0:32:28.640
without uh d her name's d um and yeah

0:32:27.440,0:32:29.679
we've worked together for eight years i

0:32:28.640,0:32:31.120
went to our wedding

0:32:29.679,0:32:32.240
uh i think that was the first time we

0:32:31.120,0:32:32.720
actually met in person was at her

0:32:32.240,0:32:34.720
wedding

0:32:32.720,0:32:36.000
that's kind of that's really cool nah

0:32:34.720,0:32:37.279
man like and i think

0:32:36.000,0:32:39.360
it's part of that's just my own

0:32:37.279,0:32:43.360
personality i've eaten the same thing

0:32:39.360,0:32:46.159
every day for the last like nine years

0:32:43.360,0:32:47.279
i hire experts to like optimize around

0:32:46.159,0:32:51.519
things that i hate

0:32:47.279,0:32:53.679
yeah and luckily one of my superpowers

0:32:51.519,0:32:55.679
is that like most habits like i can

0:32:53.679,0:32:57.039
as long as i can change my habits like i

0:32:55.679,0:32:59.360
can do more or less anything

0:32:57.039,0:33:00.880
i don't care about like new and exciting

0:32:59.360,0:33:02.880
foods i love

0:33:00.880,0:33:04.240
i love eating the same thing every day

0:33:02.880,0:33:04.960
dude i have so then it becomes a

0:33:04.240,0:33:06.240
question of well

0:33:04.960,0:33:08.080
pick the right thing so that you don't

0:33:06.240,0:33:09.120
have fat or like so you can like hit

0:33:08.080,0:33:10.880
your fitness goals

0:33:09.120,0:33:12.320
sorry what you're gonna say dude i have

0:33:10.880,0:33:14.480
been on this

0:33:12.320,0:33:16.240
i've been i eat basically the same thing

0:33:14.480,0:33:18.399
now for like a few months

0:33:16.240,0:33:20.080
i was doing chipotle for a while i was

0:33:18.399,0:33:21.679
on the chipotle diet

0:33:20.080,0:33:23.200
and then i was like i gotta bring this

0:33:21.679,0:33:26.080
in-house and i basically

0:33:23.200,0:33:27.279
chicken breast beans and and like green

0:33:26.080,0:33:29.679
beans

0:33:27.279,0:33:31.679
and i recently started doing one meal a

0:33:29.679,0:33:33.919
day i was skipping breakfast

0:33:31.679,0:33:35.519
and i and i plateaued and i was i gotta

0:33:33.919,0:33:38.720
skip dinner too

0:33:35.519,0:33:41.519
so i've been doing one meal and uh

0:33:38.720,0:33:43.120
it's interesting fasting yeah it is

0:33:41.519,0:33:46.559
fantastic yeah

0:33:43.120,0:33:48.799
so you're um your uh your twitter

0:33:46.559,0:33:49.919
your branding is skinny and bald but you

0:33:48.799,0:33:51.840
seem like you're in pretty good

0:33:49.919,0:33:54.559
are you pretty into like okay we got the

0:33:51.840,0:33:57.279
bald capota i'm i'm bald yeah uh i was

0:33:54.559,0:33:58.640
also 24 when i came up with it and i was

0:33:57.279,0:34:01.279
definitely skinnier

0:33:58.640,0:34:02.559
and then you stuck and i worked yeah i

0:34:01.279,0:34:04.000
was a i was a freelance

0:34:02.559,0:34:06.399
art director and programmer i was a

0:34:04.000,0:34:08.159
flash developer and so i was working

0:34:06.399,0:34:09.520
with brands and i basically needed a

0:34:08.159,0:34:12.079
memorable website

0:34:09.520,0:34:12.639
and so i was like what's something fun

0:34:12.079,0:34:14.480
that

0:34:12.639,0:34:16.159
you know someone looks at me and over

0:34:14.480,0:34:17.520
time it could become ironic

0:34:16.159,0:34:20.320
like you know hopefully i won't be fat

0:34:17.520,0:34:20.320
and hairy someday

0:34:25.200,0:34:28.480
no so that was like skinny involved was

0:34:27.599,0:34:30.879
was

0:34:28.480,0:34:32.639
people can spell it it's fun and it and

0:34:30.879,0:34:34.960
also i think it captures my personality

0:34:32.639,0:34:35.440
which is like i'm kind of skinny kind of

0:34:34.960,0:34:38.000
bald

0:34:35.440,0:34:39.679
right guys yeah but yes you're right

0:34:38.000,0:34:40.159
like i'm definitely more i'm definitely

0:34:39.679,0:34:42.159
bald

0:34:40.159,0:34:43.599
skewing more towards bald these days

0:34:42.159,0:34:45.760
right um

0:34:43.599,0:34:48.560
so you work out you work out a good bit

0:34:45.760,0:34:50.480
and lift weights and stuff uh well i

0:34:48.560,0:34:53.760
mean kovid made that really complicated

0:34:50.480,0:34:54.159
right right um and so i gave i gained

0:34:53.760,0:34:55.919
some

0:34:54.159,0:34:57.920
some some weight from that and so i've

0:34:55.919,0:35:00.720
been getting back into shape and

0:34:57.920,0:35:02.160
uh yeah so it's i would say i do the

0:35:00.720,0:35:03.680
least amount for

0:35:02.160,0:35:05.359
fitness like i basically have these like

0:35:03.680,0:35:06.079
habits that are really important to me

0:35:05.359,0:35:09.520
around

0:35:06.079,0:35:10.160
nutrition only because i care about like

0:35:09.520,0:35:12.240
survive like

0:35:10.160,0:35:13.280
i want to live um and i want to be in

0:35:12.240,0:35:15.680
the best shape

0:35:13.280,0:35:17.119
that i can be because quality of life

0:35:15.680,0:35:18.320
and i don't want to think about it

0:35:17.119,0:35:20.079
beyond like basically i want

0:35:18.320,0:35:22.240
i want a regimen i want to follow it and

0:35:20.079,0:35:25.520
then i'll use all my brain power to

0:35:22.240,0:35:28.160
to deal with all the crazy business con

0:35:25.520,0:35:29.599
and like product stuff that comes up

0:35:28.160,0:35:32.880
that's my own personal

0:35:29.599,0:35:35.040
inclination i love that yeah i'm i'm

0:35:32.880,0:35:36.320
i'm kind of similar it's a little harder

0:35:35.040,0:35:36.800
when you've got a bunch of kids because

0:35:36.320,0:35:39.440
they

0:35:36.800,0:35:41.119
mess up your life schedule and and

0:35:39.440,0:35:42.720
everything and when it comes to food

0:35:41.119,0:35:44.880
like there's always like

0:35:42.720,0:35:46.240
snacks in the kitchen and stuff and then

0:35:44.880,0:35:48.160
i'm telling my wife i'm like we gotta

0:35:46.240,0:35:51.119
get less snacks you know and

0:35:48.160,0:35:51.839
yeah so it's a little trickier but um

0:35:51.119,0:35:54.400
yeah i'm

0:35:51.839,0:35:56.240
uh i'm similar i watched this video

0:35:54.400,0:35:59.040
recently of this guy

0:35:56.240,0:36:00.400
um like this minimalist guy on youtube

0:35:59.040,0:36:03.520
that like wears the same

0:36:00.400,0:36:04.160
shirt every day um and he has this whole

0:36:03.520,0:36:06.000
video

0:36:04.160,0:36:07.359
on wearing the same shirt every day for

0:36:06.000,0:36:09.599
three years

0:36:07.359,0:36:11.200
and uh i was like that's a great idea i

0:36:09.599,0:36:12.720
gotta try that out yeah

0:36:11.200,0:36:15.040
i do that like if i were to open this

0:36:12.720,0:36:16.640
behind me i have i i have a spreadsheet

0:36:15.040,0:36:17.839
of all the clothes that i just buy again

0:36:16.640,0:36:20.000
yeah no i'm dead serious

0:36:17.839,0:36:21.359
i buy the same shoes again i buy the

0:36:20.000,0:36:24.880
same pants

0:36:21.359,0:36:28.800
that's awesome that's awesome

0:36:24.880,0:36:29.839
i mean it's but to your point it's

0:36:28.800,0:36:31.440
harder when

0:36:29.839,0:36:33.839
it's not just about your life anymore

0:36:31.440,0:36:35.680
right like you're you have a family

0:36:33.839,0:36:37.680
um for me it's like my girlfriend would

0:36:35.680,0:36:40.320
murder me if i ate the same

0:36:37.680,0:36:40.960
literally the same thing every night um

0:36:40.320,0:36:44.480
right so

0:36:40.960,0:36:46.560
i think that's part of growing up too is

0:36:44.480,0:36:48.000
finding that balance that happy balance

0:36:46.560,0:36:50.800
yeah yeah

0:36:48.000,0:36:51.599
what are um what are some other like

0:36:50.800,0:36:54.079
habits

0:36:51.599,0:36:56.800
or like what does your schedule look

0:36:54.079,0:37:00.160
like to help you get into like a good

0:36:56.800,0:37:02.880
creative flow state stuff like that

0:37:00.160,0:37:04.480
i live by my calendar um and i have like

0:37:02.880,0:37:06.400
i've had a process that i've

0:37:04.480,0:37:08.000
naturally followed probably for the last

0:37:06.400,0:37:10.480
10 years

0:37:08.000,0:37:11.200
uh i wrote a i actually wrote a script

0:37:10.480,0:37:13.040
that

0:37:11.200,0:37:15.200
scrapes my calendar at three in the

0:37:13.040,0:37:16.960
morning every night creates a new trello

0:37:15.200,0:37:18.640
board of everything that i have for

0:37:16.960,0:37:20.320
meetings and calls that are listed so

0:37:18.640,0:37:22.880
when i wake up i have a to-do list

0:37:20.320,0:37:23.760
for today that's a combination of my

0:37:22.880,0:37:25.839
calendar

0:37:23.760,0:37:27.440
as of events that are in like other

0:37:25.839,0:37:28.960
things that i've i've put in

0:37:27.440,0:37:30.480
and then every time i do something i

0:37:28.960,0:37:32.480
move it to the done list

0:37:30.480,0:37:33.680
and i have like my own vocabulary of

0:37:32.480,0:37:36.160
like m is a meeting

0:37:33.680,0:37:38.560
c is a call it takes all the calendar

0:37:36.160,0:37:41.200
details and puts it onto the trello

0:37:38.560,0:37:42.880
card itself and this is something that

0:37:41.200,0:37:44.240
and every week i review all of the

0:37:42.880,0:37:46.640
things that i've completed

0:37:44.240,0:37:48.720
in the like the cards of trello for that

0:37:46.640,0:37:52.079
week and then i archive them

0:37:48.720,0:37:54.160
um and so i would it's not that i'm

0:37:52.079,0:37:56.880
regimented it's just that

0:37:54.160,0:37:58.640
i try to be really mindful around

0:37:56.880,0:38:01.920
budgeting my time

0:37:58.640,0:38:05.280
um and so for me

0:38:01.920,0:38:07.599
in it the intent there is to make to not

0:38:05.280,0:38:09.359
always be busy

0:38:07.599,0:38:10.960
and to make sure especially as an

0:38:09.359,0:38:13.040
engineer i can get sucked into something

0:38:10.960,0:38:14.800
next thing you know i've spent an entire

0:38:13.040,0:38:16.160
like day on something that ultimately

0:38:14.800,0:38:17.359
didn't really matter

0:38:16.160,0:38:19.280
and so i've just tried to get better

0:38:17.359,0:38:20.320
around pro being proactive instead of

0:38:19.280,0:38:22.240
reactive

0:38:20.320,0:38:24.320
and so my calendar it drives a lot of my

0:38:22.240,0:38:25.920
friends um

0:38:24.320,0:38:27.920
my girlfriend crazy around i'm like oh

0:38:25.920,0:38:29.200
you want to do something please send me

0:38:27.920,0:38:30.880
a calendar invite

0:38:29.200,0:38:32.960
and it's not intended to be dismissive

0:38:30.880,0:38:36.240
it's just it's my process

0:38:32.960,0:38:38.160
for being able to like make to be able

0:38:36.240,0:38:40.240
to focus on what's in front of me

0:38:38.160,0:38:41.680
yeah um yeah and so yeah but like

0:38:40.240,0:38:42.880
writing a script that does it myself i'm

0:38:41.680,0:38:43.760
not sure if that would be useful for

0:38:42.880,0:38:45.280
anyone else

0:38:43.760,0:38:46.880
i've thought about like trying to

0:38:45.280,0:38:48.640
productize that into a business

0:38:46.880,0:38:50.400
but right the more i talk to my friends

0:38:48.640,0:38:52.240
they're all like a lot of it's

0:38:50.400,0:38:54.160
oh i wish i could follow a schedule like

0:38:52.240,0:38:57.520
you do right but i can't

0:38:54.160,0:38:59.839
or i don't want to right um yeah

0:38:57.520,0:39:01.680
what about you i've gone in and out of

0:38:59.839,0:39:03.599
phases of being real like

0:39:01.680,0:39:06.720
schedule oriented i'm i've been starting

0:39:03.599,0:39:09.040
to skew again more scheduled recently

0:39:06.720,0:39:10.880
and my wife always makes fun of me

0:39:09.040,0:39:13.920
because when we were dating in college

0:39:10.880,0:39:16.320
i was real scheduled i had a schedule it

0:39:13.920,0:39:17.359
was blocked out each day was blocked out

0:39:16.320,0:39:20.480
studying time

0:39:17.359,0:39:23.200
math time friends time all that kind of

0:39:20.480,0:39:24.640
stuff yeah and i had it up on my wall

0:39:23.200,0:39:26.400
and so she would be like hey do you want

0:39:24.640,0:39:28.400
to hang out i'd be like no i can't you

0:39:26.400,0:39:30.480
know this is my whatever time or this is

0:39:28.400,0:39:31.359
my time to hang out with guys or when it

0:39:30.480,0:39:33.359
was like

0:39:31.359,0:39:35.599
it was real intense and it drove her

0:39:33.359,0:39:37.520
nuts you know

0:39:35.599,0:39:39.440
well and i i think but i think it's it's

0:39:37.520,0:39:40.800
important because otherwise we all have

0:39:39.440,0:39:44.000
24 hours a day

0:39:40.800,0:39:45.839
and yeah it's really easy for other

0:39:44.000,0:39:47.680
things or situations and people to

0:39:45.839,0:39:49.280
define your priorities and i think

0:39:47.680,0:39:50.720
and i will say going back to your

0:39:49.280,0:39:52.400
examples of

0:39:50.720,0:39:54.640
people who have been like we'll call it

0:39:52.400,0:39:57.280
disproportionately successful

0:39:54.640,0:39:58.720
um like the the elon musks or the jeff

0:39:57.280,0:39:59.280
bezos or i mean there's a lot more

0:39:58.720,0:40:01.760
examples

0:39:59.280,0:40:03.200
than just the folks we we talk about but

0:40:01.760,0:40:04.319
i'd say a lot of them have been very

0:40:03.200,0:40:07.359
intentional

0:40:04.319,0:40:08.079
i would assume people i know like from

0:40:07.359,0:40:10.240
my what i

0:40:08.079,0:40:11.200
from what i have observed and from what

0:40:10.240,0:40:12.640
i know

0:40:11.200,0:40:14.319
these people are very intentional with

0:40:12.640,0:40:17.040
their time um

0:40:14.319,0:40:17.680
whether that's prioritizing social

0:40:17.040,0:40:20.880
events or

0:40:17.680,0:40:23.200
or not prioritizing social events

0:40:20.880,0:40:25.280
um all these people have been really

0:40:23.200,0:40:28.160
good around to building infrastructure

0:40:25.280,0:40:29.440
that allows them to focus on what they

0:40:28.160,0:40:32.960
want to work on

0:40:29.440,0:40:34.960
while also not being spread too thin

0:40:32.960,0:40:36.560
yeah right like not letting and that's

0:40:34.960,0:40:39.920
that becomes the risk of trying to

0:40:36.560,0:40:41.280
to to do a lot of things is if you have

0:40:39.920,0:40:43.119
if you're running a bunch of businesses

0:40:41.280,0:40:44.240
and you're not really regimented

0:40:43.119,0:40:46.560
um you're not going to accomplish

0:40:44.240,0:40:49.520
anything yeah which is

0:40:46.560,0:40:50.640
so having a calendar and having some

0:40:49.520,0:40:52.400
process where

0:40:50.640,0:40:54.160
when when a fire comes up which

0:40:52.400,0:40:57.520
inevitably it will you need to have

0:40:54.160,0:40:59.599
pre-established some rules and like

0:40:57.520,0:41:00.880
procedures around if this comes up i'm

0:40:59.599,0:41:02.720
going to ignore it because this

0:41:00.880,0:41:04.480
i've already decided how i'm going to

0:41:02.720,0:41:06.160
deal with situations like this

0:41:04.480,0:41:07.520
maybe sometimes the solution is to hire

0:41:06.160,0:41:10.640
someone who's responsible for it

0:41:07.520,0:41:13.119
yeah which is what i like to do

0:41:10.640,0:41:15.359
yeah what are um what are some of the

0:41:13.119,0:41:16.720
other uh you mentioned virtual assistant

0:41:15.359,0:41:17.680
but what are some of the other roles

0:41:16.720,0:41:19.280
that you've

0:41:17.680,0:41:20.880
that you've hired recently and that have

0:41:19.280,0:41:24.240
been i had to cook for a while

0:41:20.880,0:41:27.760
oh yeah yeah she would measure my food

0:41:24.240,0:41:30.400
um she yeah like i felt like

0:41:27.760,0:41:31.280
i i'm really i don't know how to cook um

0:41:30.400,0:41:32.640
it's embarrassing

0:41:31.280,0:41:34.480
and it's not something i like to invest

0:41:32.640,0:41:35.920
a lot of time into um

0:41:34.480,0:41:38.079
it seems like a whole lot of time and

0:41:35.920,0:41:38.800
all i want i like i eat to live i don't

0:41:38.079,0:41:41.599
live to eat

0:41:38.800,0:41:42.560
yeah and so i would i basically gave her

0:41:41.599,0:41:44.800
the macros

0:41:42.560,0:41:46.720
and i asked her to create some recipes

0:41:44.800,0:41:48.560
that would fit my macros

0:41:46.720,0:41:49.760
and i really love mexican food and so

0:41:48.560,0:41:51.520
she made me like

0:41:49.760,0:41:53.440
amazing like basically it was like

0:41:51.520,0:41:56.240
really good chipotle except it was like

0:41:53.440,0:41:58.160
natural like super fresh yeah and it

0:41:56.240,0:41:59.119
matched exactly and then if i wasn't

0:41:58.160,0:42:00.720
making progress

0:41:59.119,0:42:02.480
i could ask her hey try to reduce the

0:42:00.720,0:42:03.280
carbs because like i wasn't like losing

0:42:02.480,0:42:05.599
weight or something

0:42:03.280,0:42:06.640
yeah that's um and that was really cool

0:42:05.599,0:42:08.720
and she would just show up

0:42:06.640,0:42:10.880
she'd cook it while i was at the office

0:42:08.720,0:42:11.920
i'd come home and i would cook for like

0:42:10.880,0:42:14.960
a week of food

0:42:11.920,0:42:16.560
i'd come home and i'd have it um and so

0:42:14.960,0:42:20.000
that was great

0:42:16.560,0:42:22.560
it uh that was a really powerful one

0:42:20.000,0:42:23.839
now it's me clicking reorder on seamless

0:42:22.560,0:42:25.839
from uh

0:42:23.839,0:42:26.960
from a place that sells an amazing

0:42:25.839,0:42:30.160
shawarma bowl

0:42:26.960,0:42:33.280
yeah with double chicken nice um

0:42:30.160,0:42:35.440
i i would say i spent a lot on software

0:42:33.280,0:42:36.480
yeah to the point where a lot of my

0:42:35.440,0:42:38.480
friends who are also

0:42:36.480,0:42:39.920
tech nerds are like why do you spend so

0:42:38.480,0:42:42.480
much on

0:42:39.920,0:42:44.400
like i use calendly i use zoom if

0:42:42.480,0:42:47.119
anything can save me time

0:42:44.400,0:42:48.720
and if i think that it say heart saves

0:42:47.119,0:42:51.359
me time every single day

0:42:48.720,0:42:52.079
i will invest in it um i have a new i

0:42:51.359,0:42:56.720
have a

0:42:52.079,0:42:58.720
personal trainer who's virtual um

0:42:56.720,0:43:00.720
like i'm a huge fan of these

0:42:58.720,0:43:01.920
subscription services that are around

0:43:00.720,0:43:03.760
like

0:43:01.920,0:43:05.200
i really think of it as coaches though

0:43:03.760,0:43:06.480
they're they're

0:43:05.200,0:43:08.480
like one of the first things i did after

0:43:06.480,0:43:10.079
i left cardhook was i hired an engineer

0:43:08.480,0:43:12.160
to brush me up on programming i

0:43:10.079,0:43:14.800
basically hired a programming tutor um

0:43:12.160,0:43:16.640
because i was like i have not coded

0:43:14.800,0:43:18.319
like i've mostly been managing i've been

0:43:16.640,0:43:19.920
doing design and not only that i was

0:43:18.319,0:43:22.960
like i just want to get better

0:43:19.920,0:43:24.880
i always want to get better and so uh

0:43:22.960,0:43:26.640
i rather than hiring someone to build a

0:43:24.880,0:43:28.240
product for me i hired a really smart

0:43:26.640,0:43:30.079
engineer who i had

0:43:28.240,0:43:31.839
hired before like years ago and i was

0:43:30.079,0:43:34.240
like i will pay you to do like

0:43:31.839,0:43:35.839
pull requests and to give me to like

0:43:34.240,0:43:36.319
basically tell me everything i'm doing

0:43:35.839,0:43:39.119
wrong

0:43:36.319,0:43:40.960
and bring me up to speed on how like php

0:43:39.119,0:43:43.040
and laravel have changed since i last

0:43:40.960,0:43:46.640
was like programming day-to-day

0:43:43.040,0:43:49.920
um right that's super cool man what's um

0:43:46.640,0:43:52.800
investing in coaches yeah like again

0:43:49.920,0:43:54.720
that's awesome what uh what um what are

0:43:52.800,0:43:56.319
you doing development-wise these days

0:43:54.720,0:43:58.079
why are you using laravel you mentioned

0:43:56.319,0:43:59.440
larry i'm a big lyrical guy myself

0:43:58.079,0:44:01.440
actually

0:43:59.440,0:44:03.200
really yeah yeah yeah is that your

0:44:01.440,0:44:04.400
primary weapon of choice these days

0:44:03.200,0:44:06.240
although i think i noticed that when i

0:44:04.400,0:44:07.920
signed up for your your site

0:44:06.240,0:44:10.000
i noticed it was like laravel

0:44:07.920,0:44:12.640
scaffolding

0:44:10.000,0:44:13.280
yeah i did yes i just remember that

0:44:12.640,0:44:15.280
right now

0:44:13.280,0:44:17.680
yeah yeah man i mean so going back to

0:44:15.280,0:44:19.760
what we were talking about around like

0:44:17.680,0:44:22.000
i studied english in college i'm an

0:44:19.760,0:44:24.400
engineer i love building stuff

0:44:22.000,0:44:26.160
i do not want to optimize everything

0:44:24.400,0:44:27.040
what i care about most is i want a few

0:44:26.160,0:44:30.480
tools that i

0:44:27.040,0:44:32.079
that i'm really confident that i can

0:44:30.480,0:44:33.520
that like i'm experienced with and that

0:44:32.079,0:44:35.280
i can use them to

0:44:33.520,0:44:36.480
to build a product and to build a

0:44:35.280,0:44:37.280
scalable product so i've been doing a

0:44:36.480,0:44:39.040
lot with

0:44:37.280,0:44:41.599
laravel vapor which is serverless

0:44:39.040,0:44:45.359
laravel um

0:44:41.599,0:44:47.680
the i have a very narrow stack

0:44:45.359,0:44:49.200
which if you talk to some engineers they

0:44:47.680,0:44:50.880
would basically say that what i'm doing

0:44:49.200,0:44:53.119
what i'm advocating for is

0:44:50.880,0:44:54.400
is stupid um which i'm okay with i don't

0:44:53.119,0:44:56.160
care which is true because

0:44:54.400,0:44:57.839
basically everything somebody's gonna

0:44:56.160,0:44:59.680
tell you it's stupid

0:44:57.839,0:45:01.040
yeah yeah and they're probably even

0:44:59.680,0:45:02.400
better engineers than me like but the

0:45:01.040,0:45:03.839
issue is like it's about like what are

0:45:02.400,0:45:05.119
you trying to do and what i'm trying to

0:45:03.839,0:45:06.480
solve for is not necessarily trying to

0:45:05.119,0:45:07.280
choose the best language for the

0:45:06.480,0:45:09.040
situation

0:45:07.280,0:45:10.480
the truth is that most languages and

0:45:09.040,0:45:12.400
frameworks you can

0:45:10.480,0:45:15.119
if you're good at it like you can build

0:45:12.400,0:45:17.359
anything yeah what i care about most

0:45:15.119,0:45:18.400
is familiarity with the different tools

0:45:17.359,0:45:20.000
and bottlenecks

0:45:18.400,0:45:21.520
so that when i'm building something or

0:45:20.000,0:45:22.000
if i'm hiring an engineer to work with

0:45:21.520,0:45:24.319
me

0:45:22.000,0:45:25.839
we can immediately work in the shared

0:45:24.319,0:45:26.160
framework that i'm comfortable with and

0:45:25.839,0:45:27.920
i

0:45:26.160,0:45:29.920
understand like cardhook is built in

0:45:27.920,0:45:32.400
laravel

0:45:29.920,0:45:34.400
and so every product i work on now it's

0:45:32.400,0:45:36.800
not like

0:45:34.400,0:45:38.160
cart that experience with cardhook and

0:45:36.800,0:45:39.440
laravel was extremely extremely

0:45:38.160,0:45:41.119
important for me

0:45:39.440,0:45:43.200
um in part because of all the

0:45:41.119,0:45:45.119
experiences we had around scaling it

0:45:43.200,0:45:46.880
and so i can now go into laravel

0:45:45.119,0:45:47.839
projects and i you know i don't

0:45:46.880,0:45:49.680
i don't necessarily know how we're going

0:45:47.839,0:45:51.280
to solve everything but i'm confident

0:45:49.680,0:45:53.280
that we can figure out and that there's

0:45:51.280,0:45:54.720
i've probably seen a variation of that

0:45:53.280,0:45:59.119
problem before

0:45:54.720,0:46:02.960
um and so tailwind's big thing

0:45:59.119,0:46:04.640
using tailwind laravel um

0:46:02.960,0:46:06.400
the thing where i've gone back and forth

0:46:04.640,0:46:09.280
on is with what front end

0:46:06.400,0:46:10.240
library or or framework to use whether

0:46:09.280,0:46:13.119
it's react or

0:46:10.240,0:46:14.880
view um like i kind of missed that we

0:46:13.119,0:46:15.200
call that missed that ship when when i

0:46:14.880,0:46:18.240
was

0:46:15.200,0:46:20.480
in a non-non-technical role

0:46:18.240,0:46:21.760
so i never like i know javascript but

0:46:20.480,0:46:23.440
i'm not a

0:46:21.760,0:46:26.240
i try to get into view and react in

0:46:23.440,0:46:27.680
angular and basically it's like oh my

0:46:26.240,0:46:28.640
goodness this gets really complicated

0:46:27.680,0:46:30.480
fast

0:46:28.640,0:46:32.160
and i remember back when we could just

0:46:30.480,0:46:35.680
do like ajax forms

0:46:32.160,0:46:37.359
and you know like so that that's

0:46:35.680,0:46:38.400
the stuff that i i'm just trying to

0:46:37.359,0:46:40.240
minimize what are the different

0:46:38.400,0:46:40.800
technologies like there's live wire now

0:46:40.240,0:46:41.839
which

0:46:40.800,0:46:43.520
i don't know if you're familiar with

0:46:41.839,0:46:45.119
livewire i've heard about that yeah i

0:46:43.520,0:46:47.280
haven't dug into it too much

0:46:45.119,0:46:48.800
but it's i it seems like the people that

0:46:47.280,0:46:50.160
use it seem to enjoy it and it

0:46:48.800,0:46:51.760
simplifies

0:46:50.160,0:46:53.200
some of the things that can get

0:46:51.760,0:46:56.319
complicated with

0:46:53.200,0:46:57.680
frameworks yeah well basically you can

0:46:56.319,0:47:00.800
write php code to write

0:46:57.680,0:47:02.880
javascript so the idea is that instead

0:47:00.800,0:47:06.720
of having to learn how to write

0:47:02.880,0:47:08.160
um vujs or react you can accomplish a

0:47:06.720,0:47:12.240
lot of those same

0:47:08.160,0:47:14.720
uh functionality using php and laravel

0:47:12.240,0:47:16.000
and what i will say is like this is like

0:47:14.720,0:47:16.880
like you don't know though until you

0:47:16.000,0:47:18.079
start building stuff with the

0:47:16.880,0:47:21.359
limitations are

0:47:18.079,0:47:22.000
and i'll say that like for for one click

0:47:21.359,0:47:23.280
pony

0:47:22.000,0:47:25.680
which is the product i'm working on

0:47:23.280,0:47:28.319
right now um

0:47:25.680,0:47:30.000
i initially i said let's use livewire in

0:47:28.319,0:47:31.119
that stack and we started brushing up

0:47:30.000,0:47:32.400
against some things where

0:47:31.119,0:47:34.240
this would be so much easier to do in

0:47:32.400,0:47:36.160
vue.js and

0:47:34.240,0:47:37.760
since i wasn't the one though building

0:47:36.160,0:47:40.000
the vue.js code i

0:47:37.760,0:47:41.280
ultimately he had to explain to me as to

0:47:40.000,0:47:43.599
like why is he advocating

0:47:41.280,0:47:46.160
to use vue instead of shifting off of

0:47:43.599,0:47:47.839
our live wire

0:47:46.160,0:47:49.839
approach but what he said made sense and

0:47:47.839,0:47:52.800
i trust him and so

0:47:49.839,0:47:53.200
um but as a general framework i was

0:47:52.800,0:47:55.119
basically

0:47:53.200,0:47:57.040
like i want to start every project using

0:47:55.119,0:47:58.720
the same stack which is again going back

0:47:57.040,0:47:59.440
to the if i'm doing freelance projects

0:47:58.720,0:48:01.760
to like

0:47:59.440,0:48:03.280
do cash flow they're gonna be shopify

0:48:01.760,0:48:05.440
related because

0:48:03.280,0:48:06.480
you know like i'm working on a product

0:48:05.440,0:48:09.040
myself that

0:48:06.480,0:48:11.280
is for shopify merchants and if i'm

0:48:09.040,0:48:13.040
building a shopify app for someone else

0:48:11.280,0:48:14.480
i can build that without a whole lot of

0:48:13.040,0:48:16.160
context switching

0:48:14.480,0:48:17.920
and just build upon knowledge i already

0:48:16.160,0:48:20.480
have right right

0:48:17.920,0:48:21.760
yeah that's that's that compounding

0:48:20.480,0:48:24.000
interest of

0:48:21.760,0:48:25.280
uh the skill set the network around

0:48:24.000,0:48:27.760
shopify stuff

0:48:25.280,0:48:28.480
the probably tying in even to like the

0:48:27.760,0:48:30.400
partnership

0:48:28.480,0:48:31.599
program or people that you know and

0:48:30.400,0:48:35.280
things like that

0:48:31.599,0:48:38.960
um i love your uh tag line is like

0:48:35.280,0:48:41.280
bending uh uh bending shopify to the

0:48:38.960,0:48:41.839
will of seven figure merchants something

0:48:41.280,0:48:44.640
like that

0:48:41.839,0:48:47.040
right um yeah what what's some of the

0:48:44.640,0:48:50.400
interesting stuff that you've done

0:48:47.040,0:48:53.040
uh with with shopify with maybe unique

0:48:50.400,0:48:54.400
uh implementations or functionality

0:48:53.040,0:48:58.160
that's been

0:48:54.400,0:48:59.599
that's been interesting so

0:48:58.160,0:49:01.440
i mean i've been just trying to figure

0:48:59.599,0:49:03.599
out how to explain what i do and

0:49:01.440,0:49:05.920
try a lot of it is in the finding the

0:49:03.599,0:49:08.400
language that appeals to the type of

0:49:05.920,0:49:09.280
companies i enjoy working with which

0:49:08.400,0:49:10.960
like it sounds

0:49:09.280,0:49:13.200
so like we'll call it like blowhard

0:49:10.960,0:49:15.359
marketing-ish of me to read

0:49:13.200,0:49:16.319
seven-figure shopify stores but

0:49:15.359,0:49:17.520
ultimately what

0:49:16.319,0:49:19.119
going back to like the point of is i

0:49:17.520,0:49:19.839
want to i want to work find brands who

0:49:19.119,0:49:21.119
are

0:49:19.839,0:49:22.400
they have a product they have some

0:49:21.119,0:49:24.319
success they know they have like a

0:49:22.400,0:49:26.240
general sense of how to build a business

0:49:24.319,0:49:28.480
um and i can those are the brands who i

0:49:26.240,0:49:31.839
can be disproportionately helpful for

0:49:28.480,0:49:34.079
totally because i'm not a marketer

0:49:31.839,0:49:35.839
and so if you're making at least 100

0:49:34.079,0:49:37.920
100k a month in mrr

0:49:35.839,0:49:39.599
or not necessary mrr but 100k a month in

0:49:37.920,0:49:40.800
revenue yeah probably have a lot of that

0:49:39.599,0:49:42.640
stuff figured out

0:49:40.800,0:49:44.000
um in terms of things that have been

0:49:42.640,0:49:47.200
done that

0:49:44.000,0:49:50.400
are useful or like unexpected i i mean i

0:49:47.200,0:49:51.680
love the shopify app proxy so you can do

0:49:50.400,0:49:53.760
embedded apps

0:49:51.680,0:49:55.839
that was one of the early on at least in

0:49:53.760,0:49:57.200
the shopify app ecosystem it was like i

0:49:55.839,0:49:59.920
feel like it was a

0:49:57.200,0:50:01.280
no one knew about it um i'm sure because

0:49:59.920,0:50:03.119
it's also something you like you only

0:50:01.280,0:50:06.240
discover it by going into

0:50:03.119,0:50:07.680
a subset of of the app properties to be

0:50:06.240,0:50:09.359
able to enable it

0:50:07.680,0:50:11.119
so back when the whole idea was how do

0:50:09.359,0:50:12.559
you build a how do you have the checkout

0:50:11.119,0:50:14.480
on your own domain

0:50:12.559,0:50:16.599
because it used to be like on shopify

0:50:14.480,0:50:17.839
every checkout page was on

0:50:16.599,0:50:21.119
something.myshopify.com

0:50:17.839,0:50:22.800
right so the solution and was like the

0:50:21.119,0:50:24.880
first solution it's ever seen is just

0:50:22.800,0:50:26.240
use an app proxy and then it'll actually

0:50:24.880,0:50:28.880
you can have your checkout page on your

0:50:26.240,0:50:30.880
domain right like

0:50:28.880,0:50:32.240
because the app proxy is always it's a

0:50:30.880,0:50:34.319
reverse proxy and it's

0:50:32.240,0:50:36.240
after your domain so you literally could

0:50:34.319,0:50:39.280
just do an app proxy

0:50:36.240,0:50:40.960
to the external checkout and it'll show

0:50:39.280,0:50:43.280
up on your store

0:50:40.960,0:50:44.319
and so that was like one i'll call it

0:50:43.280,0:50:45.359
one of the

0:50:44.319,0:50:47.359
things where it's like it was a very

0:50:45.359,0:50:49.200
simple solution and it was provided out

0:50:47.359,0:50:52.079
of the box it's just you didn't

0:50:49.200,0:50:53.359
know to try it that way um and i think

0:50:52.079,0:50:55.040
there's a fair number of examples of

0:50:53.359,0:50:56.720
that which even shopify

0:50:55.040,0:51:00.400
because shopify has a lot of surface

0:50:56.720,0:51:04.240
area there's the ajax api there's

0:51:00.400,0:51:06.800
um a bunch of different apis

0:51:04.240,0:51:08.240
and as i mentioned earlier in the

0:51:06.800,0:51:10.559
conversation not every

0:51:08.240,0:51:11.440
api can be used it depends a bit on your

0:51:10.559,0:51:14.720
sales channel

0:51:11.440,0:51:17.040
depends what what store the plus of what

0:51:14.720,0:51:18.240
depends a bit on what plan the store

0:51:17.040,0:51:20.400
themselves is on

0:51:18.240,0:51:22.079
right um you now have four like three or

0:51:20.400,0:51:25.920
four different types of apps

0:51:22.079,0:51:25.920
so i would say that

0:51:27.760,0:51:33.280
that was probably one of the biggest

0:51:30.960,0:51:34.559
unexpected ways of using shopify zone

0:51:33.280,0:51:37.119
technology to like

0:51:34.559,0:51:37.920
solve a solve a cool problem yeah that's

0:51:37.119,0:51:40.079
that's one of the

0:51:37.920,0:51:41.599
so you were early on with that solution

0:51:40.079,0:51:44.000
because that's one of the

0:51:41.599,0:51:44.720
things that has gotten pretty popular

0:51:44.000,0:51:46.960
like people

0:51:44.720,0:51:48.559
having to check out on their own domain

0:51:46.960,0:51:51.680
um and it's always been possible

0:51:48.559,0:51:52.800
um and eventually shopify changed it

0:51:51.680,0:51:54.640
themselves now you

0:51:52.800,0:51:56.160
the checkout is on their own domain but

0:51:54.640,0:51:57.680
that was the simplest solution to be

0:51:56.160,0:51:59.680
able to have it and

0:51:57.680,0:52:00.960
um you know it's kind of like one of

0:51:59.680,0:52:01.440
those things we're staring everyone in

0:52:00.960,0:52:03.200
the face

0:52:01.440,0:52:04.640
and a lot of it comes down to like just

0:52:03.200,0:52:05.440
thinking to apply something in a

0:52:04.640,0:52:08.160
different way

0:52:05.440,0:52:08.160
right um

0:52:09.359,0:52:12.240
and even if part of what i'll tell you

0:52:10.800,0:52:13.119
part of what i've liked what other

0:52:12.240,0:52:14.400
people have done

0:52:13.119,0:52:16.400
that's been smart is like the order

0:52:14.400,0:52:19.760
bumps right like

0:52:16.400,0:52:21.599
finding ways to modify the the checkout

0:52:19.760,0:52:23.200
page to be able to add a little bit more

0:52:21.599,0:52:26.480
customization

0:52:23.200,0:52:26.480
um i think

0:52:27.920,0:52:31.520
i've been impressed by some of the

0:52:29.040,0:52:34.000
implementations i've seen with that

0:52:31.520,0:52:34.880
um is that i might not be familiar order

0:52:34.000,0:52:37.839
bump is that uh

0:52:34.880,0:52:38.400
is that an app yep yeah there's a few of

0:52:37.839,0:52:40.079
them

0:52:38.400,0:52:42.160
um i believe they only work with plus

0:52:40.079,0:52:42.880
stores because you need to be able to

0:52:42.160,0:52:45.520
install

0:52:42.880,0:52:47.119
uh some stuff on the on the checkout

0:52:45.520,0:52:48.640
page right right but you've even i've

0:52:47.119,0:52:50.319
even seen some people do some cool stuff

0:52:48.640,0:52:52.960
on the thank you page where

0:52:50.319,0:52:54.559
um back in the day it used to be that

0:52:52.960,0:52:55.680
people put like javascript in like the

0:52:54.559,0:52:57.599
google analytics

0:52:55.680,0:52:59.280
id because you could just paste

0:52:57.599,0:53:01.440
javascript in there i think that was an

0:52:59.280,0:53:02.400
early one i saw some people doing

0:53:01.440,0:53:03.680
um basically you're just trying to

0:53:02.400,0:53:04.880
figure out where can i put how can i

0:53:03.680,0:53:07.440
have javascript

0:53:04.880,0:53:08.559
fire anywhere so i have more control and

0:53:07.440,0:53:11.760
can adjust the

0:53:08.559,0:53:12.839
dom right um a buddy of mine was telling

0:53:11.760,0:53:16.160
me that uh

0:53:12.839,0:53:17.920
cloudflare has these uh workers now or

0:53:16.160,0:53:19.760
something like that where you can inject

0:53:17.920,0:53:21.119
use those a lot that's cool you can

0:53:19.760,0:53:24.000
inject at the edge

0:53:21.119,0:53:25.040
javascript even if you're not on plus or

0:53:24.000,0:53:27.359
whatever

0:53:25.040,0:53:28.559
yeah oh that's interesting i actually so

0:53:27.359,0:53:29.920
that's the perfect example i hadn't

0:53:28.559,0:53:32.720
thought of applying it

0:53:29.920,0:53:34.559
on like in the shopify context i use

0:53:32.720,0:53:37.200
serverless workers all the time though

0:53:34.559,0:53:37.599
to do reverse proxies so i i'm working

0:53:37.200,0:53:39.200
with

0:53:37.599,0:53:40.880
one brand right now in my consulting

0:53:39.200,0:53:43.280
where they have

0:53:40.880,0:53:44.720
webflow for the landing pages for their

0:53:43.280,0:53:47.599
marketing page

0:53:44.720,0:53:49.040
we have uh actually a custom laravel app

0:53:47.599,0:53:52.559
for the checkout

0:53:49.040,0:53:55.440
and then they also have some other apis

0:53:52.559,0:53:57.280
for like a for like a personalized quiz

0:53:55.440,0:53:57.920
and we need to give the impression that

0:53:57.280,0:53:59.440
they're all

0:53:57.920,0:54:00.960
all three of these things are operating

0:53:59.440,0:54:01.680
on the same domain which is impossible

0:54:00.960,0:54:04.880
in part because

0:54:01.680,0:54:06.559
the top level site is web flow you can't

0:54:04.880,0:54:08.400
right like so the way you accomplish it

0:54:06.559,0:54:09.839
is using cloudflare servers workers

0:54:08.400,0:54:11.040
where you're not paying for bandwidth

0:54:09.839,0:54:13.359
it's effectively

0:54:11.040,0:54:14.960
javascript um i think it actually

0:54:13.359,0:54:17.200
supports other languages too

0:54:14.960,0:54:18.480
um but anyway like you can accomplish it

0:54:17.200,0:54:21.839
through javascript

0:54:18.480,0:54:25.599
it's super powerful um

0:54:21.839,0:54:27.839
and because it's cloudflare you know i i

0:54:25.599,0:54:28.800
more or less blindly trust that a lot of

0:54:27.839,0:54:32.000
the stuff they build is

0:54:28.800,0:54:34.960
is dope yeah yeah yeah

0:54:32.000,0:54:35.839
you talk about like oh sorry guys sorry

0:54:34.960,0:54:38.319
go ahead

0:54:35.839,0:54:40.720
um now i should say cloudflare it's like

0:54:38.319,0:54:42.559
you talk about decentralization versus

0:54:40.720,0:54:44.880
centralization it's like we're all

0:54:42.559,0:54:46.559
centralized on cloudflare and for the

0:54:44.880,0:54:48.160
most part they do a great job every once

0:54:46.559,0:54:50.559
in a while there's an outage

0:54:48.160,0:54:52.000
um but for the most part they do a

0:54:50.559,0:54:53.599
tremendous job

0:54:52.000,0:54:55.040
and when you look at like ssl

0:54:53.599,0:54:56.480
certificates and these things that were

0:54:55.040,0:54:58.240
a pain in the ass

0:54:56.480,0:54:59.839
um and you know that's using let's

0:54:58.240,0:55:01.599
encrypt but i would say that from a

0:54:59.839,0:55:02.400
product perspective of like making the

0:55:01.599,0:55:04.079
boring stuff

0:55:02.400,0:55:06.240
and like not just boring but like

0:55:04.079,0:55:08.799
painful stuff like ssl certificates

0:55:06.240,0:55:09.520
making it not painful cloudflare has

0:55:08.799,0:55:12.640
done that

0:55:09.520,0:55:13.760
in so many different areas um although i

0:55:12.640,0:55:15.760
i was googling

0:55:13.760,0:55:20.240
or what is it what's it called when

0:55:15.760,0:55:21.760
you're googling on twitter just find

0:55:20.240,0:55:25.440
people who were talking about twitter

0:55:21.760,0:55:27.040
twitter searching twitter i don't know i

0:55:25.440,0:55:28.720
was searching over the twitterverse

0:55:27.040,0:55:30.240
yeah and because so one of the things

0:55:28.720,0:55:32.559
i've been doing over the last year is

0:55:30.240,0:55:33.520
buying stocks in the companies that i

0:55:32.559,0:55:35.760
use so

0:55:33.520,0:55:37.440
when i was first building one click pony

0:55:35.760,0:55:38.480
i was like using sms all day long so i

0:55:37.440,0:55:41.359
bought one for twilio

0:55:38.480,0:55:41.920
i was like i was like i hate you i don't

0:55:41.359,0:55:44.240
i

0:55:41.920,0:55:45.680
i just i wish i'd thought i wish i'd

0:55:44.240,0:55:47.119
bought shopify stock back when we were

0:55:45.680,0:55:50.480
first using shopify man

0:55:47.119,0:55:52.960
yeah yeah that is one that i will can

0:55:50.480,0:55:53.599
to this day i i so i bought some stock

0:55:52.960,0:55:56.799
stock

0:55:53.599,0:55:58.480
stock shopify stock

0:55:56.799,0:56:00.000
i also bought some big commerce to hedge

0:55:58.480,0:56:03.119
my bets

0:56:00.000,0:56:03.839
which i've only lost money on so far but

0:56:03.119,0:56:05.839
no i bought

0:56:03.839,0:56:08.640
i bought twilio early in part because i

0:56:05.839,0:56:10.799
was building stuff in sms and i

0:56:08.640,0:56:12.480
so like i was mentioning like the early

0:56:10.799,0:56:13.040
version of one of one click pony was a

0:56:12.480,0:56:15.040
one click

0:56:13.040,0:56:16.720
buy button that can be embedded in email

0:56:15.040,0:56:18.000
which ironically is what fastest raised

0:56:16.720,0:56:20.079
a bunch of money to do

0:56:18.000,0:56:21.760
uh so i built this seven years ago and

0:56:20.079,0:56:24.559
was using it with stripe

0:56:21.760,0:56:25.200
yeah and mostly advice i got was just

0:56:24.559,0:56:27.839
like

0:56:25.200,0:56:28.640
like who's gonna use that yeah and i was

0:56:27.839,0:56:31.599
like i don't know

0:56:28.640,0:56:32.160
and that and so that was when i met

0:56:31.599,0:56:34.240
jordan

0:56:32.160,0:56:35.760
and jordan and i started cart hook and

0:56:34.240,0:56:37.359
so i've always had this one click buy

0:56:35.760,0:56:41.440
button just like sitting there

0:56:37.359,0:56:42.160
um like i gotta use this for something b

0:56:41.440,0:56:44.640
to b

0:56:42.160,0:56:46.319
something i was like it's cool and so

0:56:44.640,0:56:47.920
then i was looking into sms and so we

0:56:46.319,0:56:48.640
made it so you could reply to buy like

0:56:47.920,0:56:50.720
you just reply

0:56:48.640,0:56:52.640
buy and it'll automatically buy it just

0:56:50.720,0:56:54.319
by like texting

0:56:52.640,0:56:56.160
and so that's when i was like oh wow

0:56:54.319,0:56:58.160
twilio is actually really powerful and

0:56:56.160,0:57:00.640
we can do some cool stuff

0:56:58.160,0:57:01.359
so um so then i've been looking at other

0:57:00.640,0:57:04.240
companies like

0:57:01.359,0:57:05.839
cloudflare and uh what are other

0:57:04.240,0:57:07.119
infrastructure products that might be a

0:57:05.839,0:57:08.559
good investment but i know nothing about

0:57:07.119,0:57:11.200
investing so

0:57:08.559,0:57:12.480
right it's maybe a little bit better

0:57:11.200,0:57:15.680
than betting

0:57:12.480,0:57:17.920
um no but it's it's true that you know

0:57:15.680,0:57:18.799
if if you're in tech and you're using

0:57:17.920,0:57:21.520
these products

0:57:18.799,0:57:23.359
you you don't feel like you're early

0:57:21.520,0:57:25.599
like if you're using twilio

0:57:23.359,0:57:26.640
that's the obvious thing everybody knows

0:57:25.599,0:57:28.799
you use twilio

0:57:26.640,0:57:30.640
yeah but like we have to remember that

0:57:28.799,0:57:32.960
we're early adopters compared to the

0:57:30.640,0:57:35.680
rest of the economy at large

0:57:32.960,0:57:37.359
um so it's probably still a good

0:57:35.680,0:57:37.680
opportunity i have to say i love the

0:57:37.359,0:57:40.400
name

0:57:37.680,0:57:40.720
one click pony it's fantastic oh thank

0:57:40.400,0:57:42.559
you

0:57:40.720,0:57:44.160
and like you say you're not a marketer

0:57:42.559,0:57:47.200
but i feel like

0:57:44.160,0:57:48.000
you're good at um at call it marketing

0:57:47.200,0:57:50.480
or call it

0:57:48.000,0:57:51.680
you know wording things expressing

0:57:50.480,0:57:53.599
things well like

0:57:51.680,0:57:55.119
you have a cool brand and all that you

0:57:53.599,0:57:56.480
know

0:57:55.119,0:57:58.160
thank you man well i think that's

0:57:56.480,0:58:00.240
partially why it's been hard to do

0:57:58.160,0:58:01.599
like i've kind of always found my for a

0:58:00.240,0:58:03.760
while i thought i wanted to do product

0:58:01.599,0:58:05.440
instead of engineering because i never

0:58:03.760,0:58:08.240
like i'd say like i'm a decent

0:58:05.440,0:58:10.559
programmer i'm also a decent designer

0:58:08.240,0:58:11.760
like i'm not necessarily i'm not the

0:58:10.559,0:58:14.000
best of either of those

0:58:11.760,0:58:15.440
for sure and also like but like i really

0:58:14.000,0:58:16.799
enjoy business problems

0:58:15.440,0:58:18.960
but i'm not necessarily the best

0:58:16.799,0:58:20.559
business person either and so i've been

0:58:18.960,0:58:21.040
trying to figure out what's my niche

0:58:20.559,0:58:23.359
that

0:58:21.040,0:58:24.559
is a combination of all those things

0:58:23.359,0:58:26.559
where i'm better than

0:58:24.559,0:58:29.200
i'm better at that one like that

0:58:26.559,0:58:31.119
combination is more powerful than being

0:58:29.200,0:58:33.040
individually good at any one thing right

0:58:31.119,0:58:34.880
now i appreciate you saying that i think

0:58:33.040,0:58:37.280
my biggest challenge in hang up actually

0:58:34.880,0:58:39.040
is content really um i'm much more

0:58:37.280,0:58:39.680
comfortable having a conversation like

0:58:39.040,0:58:41.680
this

0:58:39.680,0:58:43.119
i've been writing a blog post for my

0:58:41.680,0:58:44.240
newsletter for the last two and a half

0:58:43.119,0:58:45.760
years

0:58:44.240,0:58:48.240
i still i've been working on the welcome

0:58:45.760,0:58:51.280
email i'm not like this is a true story

0:58:48.240,0:58:54.160
i have like probably like 80 versions of

0:58:51.280,0:58:54.160
my welcome email

0:58:54.319,0:58:58.480
i even took a class on writing and it's

0:58:57.040,0:59:00.799
not that like i'm scared of being

0:58:58.480,0:59:01.680
judged i mean maybe to an extent i am

0:59:00.799,0:59:03.839
yeah but

0:59:01.680,0:59:05.200
no like like my thing i've been trying

0:59:03.839,0:59:07.760
to figure out how can i

0:59:05.200,0:59:09.040
create byproducts of all the things that

0:59:07.760,0:59:10.880
i'm learning and reading

0:59:09.040,0:59:12.799
my biggest the biggest feedback i get

0:59:10.880,0:59:14.960
from my friends is you send you share

0:59:12.799,0:59:16.640
way too many freaking links dude

0:59:14.960,0:59:18.079
like and i give them i give them no

0:59:16.640,0:59:19.440
context right

0:59:18.079,0:59:21.280
whereas i'm like oh just read it and

0:59:19.440,0:59:22.480
it'll make sense to you and so one of

0:59:21.280,0:59:23.760
the things i've been learning and it's

0:59:22.480,0:59:24.720
funny that you mentioned like all the

0:59:23.760,0:59:28.079
links that i share

0:59:24.720,0:59:32.079
all the freaking uh subscription sites

0:59:28.079,0:59:33.839
yeah yeah my friends have muted me um

0:59:32.079,0:59:35.520
because what they say that they want and

0:59:33.839,0:59:39.119
you know i don't blame them is

0:59:35.520,0:59:42.559
they want context they want a summary of

0:59:39.119,0:59:44.720
like what's the tldr you just keep

0:59:42.559,0:59:45.839
blasting

0:59:44.720,0:59:48.000
well because then they're like why

0:59:45.839,0:59:49.680
didn't you then they'll find something

0:59:48.000,0:59:50.799
like like they'll find something they're

0:59:49.680,0:59:51.359
like why don't you tell me about this

0:59:50.799,0:59:54.400
i'm like

0:59:51.359,0:59:56.400
well i probably did but you muted me

0:59:54.400,0:59:58.880
and you know but like so i'm trying to

0:59:56.400,1:00:00.319
find i'll tell you like a business

0:59:58.880,1:00:01.839
this goes back to like trying to find

1:00:00.319,1:00:02.720
like business ideas that you're like are

1:00:01.839,1:00:04.160
perfect for you

1:00:02.720,1:00:06.480
yeah it's like i just want to build a

1:00:04.160,1:00:07.920
premium version of nuzzle

1:00:06.480,1:00:10.000
right i just want to like because nuzzle

1:00:07.920,1:00:11.839
you can't do any branding i want to be

1:00:10.000,1:00:13.359
able to even like summarize it sub stack

1:00:11.839,1:00:15.440
is kind of doing this now

1:00:13.359,1:00:17.680
it's like i just want like i read

1:00:15.440,1:00:18.720
through i have my process for digesting

1:00:17.680,1:00:20.559
information

1:00:18.720,1:00:21.760
i want to like like if i share insta

1:00:20.559,1:00:23.040
paper with you

1:00:21.760,1:00:25.200
the things aren't highlighted they're

1:00:23.040,1:00:27.119
only highlighted for me that makes

1:00:25.200,1:00:28.480
no sense right if i share with you an

1:00:27.119,1:00:29.760
insta paper thing

1:00:28.480,1:00:31.680
it should be highlighted and you can see

1:00:29.760,1:00:33.280
my comments and my highlights

1:00:31.680,1:00:34.799
right like i just want to do that and

1:00:33.280,1:00:36.960
then combine that with nuzzle

1:00:34.799,1:00:38.640
that's a that's a cool idea because like

1:00:36.960,1:00:40.799
i feel like i looked at a bunch of stuff

1:00:38.640,1:00:44.000
you shared and there was a lot of really

1:00:40.799,1:00:45.359
interesting stuff in there um and then a

1:00:44.000,1:00:47.760
couple times i click through to the

1:00:45.359,1:00:50.480
nuzzle and the nuzzle layout is like

1:00:47.760,1:00:52.640
you know it's it could be cleaner right

1:00:50.480,1:00:54.559
and then right below your post it's like

1:00:52.640,1:00:56.720
showing your friends posts or whatever

1:00:54.559,1:00:59.440
it's like cross promoting and stuff so

1:00:56.720,1:01:00.000
i could imagine something that like uh

1:00:59.440,1:01:01.440
was

1:01:00.000,1:01:03.040
simpler and cleaner and you could just

1:01:01.440,1:01:04.319
share a short blurb

1:01:03.040,1:01:06.079
you know what i mean and i think there

1:01:04.319,1:01:07.599
would be yeah because there's so much

1:01:06.079,1:01:09.280
value in just curating

1:01:07.599,1:01:11.280
like there was a lot of interesting

1:01:09.280,1:01:13.680
stuff there b to b e-com different

1:01:11.280,1:01:15.839
things that i found myself interested in

1:01:13.680,1:01:16.799
you know well and i think webb does a

1:01:15.839,1:01:19.359
great job of that

1:01:16.799,1:01:21.359
i think 2 p.m that's probably the best

1:01:19.359,1:01:22.799
example i've seen of part of what i dig

1:01:21.359,1:01:24.799
are you familiar with his newsletter

1:01:22.799,1:01:26.400
yeah webb smith where like he

1:01:24.799,1:01:28.319
yeah webb smith where he has like

1:01:26.400,1:01:30.319
basically like there's like an excerpt

1:01:28.319,1:01:31.440
and then there's like the editor's notes

1:01:30.319,1:01:32.960
okay

1:01:31.440,1:01:35.040
like if i were to model something it

1:01:32.960,1:01:38.960
would probably be that um

1:01:35.040,1:01:40.079
nice he and so but no i like i like this

1:01:38.960,1:01:41.359
idea i don't

1:01:40.079,1:01:43.280
i don't know how many other people

1:01:41.359,1:01:45.440
besides me would pay for it

1:01:43.280,1:01:46.720
um but it's a huge problem because i i

1:01:45.440,1:01:49.440
read so much

1:01:46.720,1:01:51.520
like my biggest fear is wasting my time

1:01:49.440,1:01:54.160
reading stuff and not translating that

1:01:51.520,1:01:55.680
to uh knowledge and so i've taken

1:01:54.160,1:01:58.720
courses on that too

1:01:55.680,1:02:00.480
uh like you know like

1:01:58.720,1:02:03.200
building a second brain is a great

1:02:00.480,1:02:04.799
course right around

1:02:03.200,1:02:06.640
effectively how do you what's your

1:02:04.799,1:02:07.920
approach for storing information i use

1:02:06.640,1:02:10.319
evernote

1:02:07.920,1:02:11.839
and like you know making sure that

1:02:10.319,1:02:13.440
you're reevaluating

1:02:11.839,1:02:15.359
things you're writing so you can apply

1:02:13.440,1:02:17.359
it um

1:02:15.359,1:02:19.119
so for me yes like speaking is much more

1:02:17.359,1:02:21.599
is much more natural

1:02:19.119,1:02:22.960
the challenge can be then is how do i

1:02:21.599,1:02:25.119
build something that i can

1:02:22.960,1:02:26.720
how can i extract things i'd love to

1:02:25.119,1:02:29.280
share with you and talk to you about

1:02:26.720,1:02:30.960
in a form that is natural to me but also

1:02:29.280,1:02:32.160
that can be shared and that people can

1:02:30.960,1:02:33.359
see it and they can get a better sense

1:02:32.160,1:02:35.599
like for me as a designer it used to be

1:02:33.359,1:02:37.280
having a portfolio of my work

1:02:35.599,1:02:38.640
like you could go to skinnyinvol.com

1:02:37.280,1:02:39.839
right now you can see my work and i

1:02:38.640,1:02:40.960
can't even tell you how much business

1:02:39.839,1:02:42.480
that's gotten me

1:02:40.960,1:02:44.400
right it's probably why jordan i mean

1:02:42.480,1:02:47.680
that's why jordan and i first

1:02:44.400,1:02:50.480
met in the first place um right

1:02:47.680,1:02:51.680
but yeah so this idea of showcasing what

1:02:50.480,1:02:52.400
you're reading and what you're thinking

1:02:51.680,1:02:56.000
about is

1:02:52.400,1:02:57.039
is really powerful but um yeah that that

1:02:56.000,1:03:00.000
would be interesting

1:02:57.039,1:03:01.839
um i i have the opposite problem which

1:03:00.000,1:03:03.520
is i don't want to read anything long

1:03:01.839,1:03:06.799
form these days

1:03:03.520,1:03:07.680
um and i just like i i want to read

1:03:06.799,1:03:10.000
tweets

1:03:07.680,1:03:11.920
that are digestible and i feel like

1:03:10.000,1:03:14.240
sometimes i feel like it's great and i

1:03:11.920,1:03:16.400
have my feed really well curated

1:03:14.240,1:03:17.920
and it's making me smarter and then

1:03:16.400,1:03:18.880
other days i feel like it's just making

1:03:17.920,1:03:21.280
me dumber

1:03:18.880,1:03:22.559
and i gotta sit down turn it off and

1:03:21.280,1:03:25.200
read a book

1:03:22.559,1:03:26.160
um yeah but you know there's so many

1:03:25.200,1:03:29.440
different

1:03:26.160,1:03:31.280
formats to i listen to podcasts

1:03:29.440,1:03:33.200
you know i listen to a ton of podcasts

1:03:31.280,1:03:34.960
yeah um

1:03:33.200,1:03:36.799
well which is funny because i generally

1:03:34.960,1:03:38.480
hate podcasts

1:03:36.799,1:03:40.160
because it feels like people just

1:03:38.480,1:03:41.839
talking and i'm kind of like what's the

1:03:40.160,1:03:44.720
point teach me to get to the point

1:03:41.839,1:03:46.480
yeah yeah which is ironic because 80 and

1:03:44.720,1:03:48.240
i we recorded our first episode together

1:03:46.480,1:03:49.200
this morning which is that's awesome our

1:03:48.240,1:03:52.640
podcast is

1:03:49.200,1:03:54.640
it's called the dog and pony show

1:03:52.640,1:03:55.680
where he's talking about the process of

1:03:54.640,1:03:57.680
building cogsi

1:03:55.680,1:03:59.039
is his new sass yeah and i'm talking

1:03:57.680,1:04:00.799
about one click pony

1:03:59.039,1:04:02.720
um so it's ideas like we'll bring on

1:04:00.799,1:04:03.599
people like sure you'll come on and like

1:04:02.720,1:04:05.839
can talk about

1:04:03.599,1:04:07.039
like um but no it's like one of those

1:04:05.839,1:04:10.160
things where

1:04:07.039,1:04:11.680
um but personally i've listened to a

1:04:10.160,1:04:12.720
bunch of podcasts but i really prefer

1:04:11.680,1:04:14.240
things that are more

1:04:12.720,1:04:17.039
like what i want to take something out

1:04:14.240,1:04:20.079
of it right i don't want to just

1:04:17.039,1:04:22.240
write somewhere into audio books and uh

1:04:20.079,1:04:23.440
reading normal books right yeah there's

1:04:22.240,1:04:25.440
so many uh

1:04:23.440,1:04:28.480
options you know i think you have to

1:04:25.440,1:04:28.480
find what um

1:04:28.799,1:04:32.240
for for for consuming content and

1:04:30.720,1:04:34.000
creating it um

1:04:32.240,1:04:35.599
and you kind of gotta find what works i

1:04:34.000,1:04:37.440
know we're over our time and i'm

1:04:35.599,1:04:40.240
i'm i'm wondering that you're on a

1:04:37.440,1:04:42.000
schedule so we should probably uh

1:04:40.240,1:04:43.359
no i put time up for you but no i

1:04:42.000,1:04:45.359
appreciate that man

1:04:43.359,1:04:46.799
yeah let me know if you have a hard stop

1:04:45.359,1:04:49.760
um i don't but

1:04:46.799,1:04:51.680
okay cool um but yeah like i think you

1:04:49.760,1:04:52.799
got to find that format that really

1:04:51.680,1:04:55.920
works

1:04:52.799,1:04:59.280
um to where you can just put stuff

1:04:55.920,1:05:01.280
out and you know be productive and and

1:04:59.280,1:05:03.039
there's something that you enjoy about

1:05:01.280,1:05:03.839
just putting your ideas out into the

1:05:03.039,1:05:07.200
world

1:05:03.839,1:05:09.359
you know regardless of if there's direct

1:05:07.200,1:05:10.559
actionable revenue from them you know

1:05:09.359,1:05:14.319
what i mean

1:05:10.559,1:05:14.880
yep um yeah well i think it's just so

1:05:14.319,1:05:17.839
easy

1:05:14.880,1:05:19.039
to to ramble and to talk yeah and to

1:05:17.839,1:05:21.039
speak in generalities

1:05:19.039,1:05:23.599
yeah and i know that what i appreciate

1:05:21.039,1:05:25.920
more is like behind the scenes

1:05:23.599,1:05:28.000
like from the cutting room floor of what

1:05:25.920,1:05:30.319
was it actually like and those are

1:05:28.000,1:05:31.920
i think i actually think jordan um and

1:05:30.319,1:05:33.920
brian have done a great job of that

1:05:31.920,1:05:35.359
with with bootstrap web yeah where

1:05:33.920,1:05:38.960
they're like honest

1:05:35.359,1:05:40.559
yeah um and transparent i think

1:05:38.960,1:05:44.000
like those are the stories i personally

1:05:40.559,1:05:45.680
appreciate yeah um

1:05:44.000,1:05:47.280
because it's easy the funny thing is

1:05:45.680,1:05:48.720
like even starting one click pony the

1:05:47.280,1:05:49.119
advice i always got was like oh just

1:05:48.720,1:05:51.280
like

1:05:49.119,1:05:52.480
hold the email people to do like find

1:05:51.280,1:05:54.880
your first customers

1:05:52.480,1:05:56.400
i'm like yeah okay i know that like the

1:05:54.880,1:05:57.280
challenge becomes in like there's a

1:05:56.400,1:06:00.240
million different

1:05:57.280,1:06:00.960
potential levers around content or like

1:06:00.240,1:06:03.440
oh just like

1:06:00.960,1:06:04.079
post to linkedin and you know come up

1:06:03.440,1:06:06.480
with your content

1:06:04.079,1:06:08.319
strategy and and do like you know i've

1:06:06.480,1:06:09.920
done things with built with lists

1:06:08.319,1:06:11.520
uh i've hired i've hired two email

1:06:09.920,1:06:13.839
marketing agencies to help with

1:06:11.520,1:06:15.200
like outbound um i've also read that

1:06:13.839,1:06:16.720
that's like the worst strategy to do

1:06:15.200,1:06:18.880
because you can't outsource that

1:06:16.720,1:06:20.960
especially like if you until you have a

1:06:18.880,1:06:25.760
product like a real product market

1:06:20.960,1:06:28.799
um so i think it's advice

1:06:25.760,1:06:32.880
is easy what's harder is

1:06:28.799,1:06:32.880
tell sharing how you navigated the stuff

1:06:33.359,1:06:36.000
i think it would be cool to see the

1:06:34.480,1:06:36.480
podcast you guys do so you're basically

1:06:36.000,1:06:39.520
going to be

1:06:36.480,1:06:41.359
talking about the products that you're

1:06:39.520,1:06:44.640
building and kind of a

1:06:41.359,1:06:46.079
behind-the-scenes kind of a deal yep

1:06:44.640,1:06:48.960
yeah like today we were even talking

1:06:46.079,1:06:51.200
about um like hiring engineers

1:06:48.960,1:06:53.119
like remote and how that's changed even

1:06:51.200,1:06:58.480
over the last like five years

1:06:53.119,1:07:01.200
um and talking about

1:06:58.480,1:07:02.720
distribution strategies in marketing uh

1:07:01.200,1:07:04.240
he's coming from

1:07:02.720,1:07:06.079
he's technical like and that's part of

1:07:04.240,1:07:08.319
what what i love about him is like he's

1:07:06.079,1:07:11.280
a non-technical founder but he's he's

1:07:08.319,1:07:12.400
you talk to him he understands the tech

1:07:11.280,1:07:15.119
um

1:07:12.400,1:07:16.160
and i come from the tech and product

1:07:15.119,1:07:17.359
where i've

1:07:16.160,1:07:19.359
basically just been trying to like

1:07:17.359,1:07:20.960
befriend people who are really good at

1:07:19.359,1:07:22.160
marketing in part through i'm hoping

1:07:20.960,1:07:24.640
through osmosis

1:07:22.160,1:07:26.240
and like conversations of like you know

1:07:24.640,1:07:27.520
these are the things i love talking to

1:07:26.240,1:07:28.799
people who are good at stuff that i

1:07:27.520,1:07:31.599
really want to learn

1:07:28.799,1:07:33.119
um that's awesome so i think the podcast

1:07:31.599,1:07:35.599
should be a fun form where

1:07:33.119,1:07:37.280
i expect he will be drilling me and

1:07:35.599,1:07:38.559
grilling me and holding me accountable

1:07:37.280,1:07:39.920
for some stuff which we could do as

1:07:38.559,1:07:40.880
friends but it's probably more fun to do

1:07:39.920,1:07:45.359
it

1:07:40.880,1:07:47.280
publicly that's cool yeah i've um yeah i

1:07:45.359,1:07:51.760
started listening to his um

1:07:47.280,1:07:54.000
life uh profitably podcast and yeah

1:07:51.760,1:07:54.799
i really like it like he's on this whole

1:07:54.000,1:07:57.359
you know

1:07:54.799,1:07:58.960
mindfulness thing and he talks about you

1:07:57.359,1:08:00.400
know with a lot of people about a lot of

1:07:58.960,1:08:03.280
interesting stuff and

1:08:00.400,1:08:04.000
i'm kind of on a similar kick i guess

1:08:03.280,1:08:07.440
with like

1:08:04.000,1:08:09.039
mindfulness and you know all that stuff

1:08:07.440,1:08:11.280
meditation oh i saw you were looking for

1:08:09.039,1:08:11.810
like psychedelic trips in oregon for a

1:08:11.280,1:08:14.000
friend

1:08:11.810,1:08:16.640
[Laughter]

1:08:14.000,1:08:18.400
asking for a friend yeah exactly yeah i

1:08:16.640,1:08:20.719
keep hearing about psychedelics on

1:08:18.400,1:08:23.120
podcasts and stuff and i'm like wow

1:08:20.719,1:08:24.319
oh my goodness maybe rogan i think

1:08:23.120,1:08:27.679
brought that to the

1:08:24.319,1:08:30.640
masses i think so are you a rogan fan

1:08:27.679,1:08:31.920
i i i found a lot of the people he's

1:08:30.640,1:08:33.679
brought on really interesting

1:08:31.920,1:08:35.279
yeah and he to me strikes me as like a

1:08:33.679,1:08:38.319
thoughtful interesting guy

1:08:35.279,1:08:39.040
he's very polarizing um which is fine i

1:08:38.319,1:08:42.480
guess

1:08:39.040,1:08:43.839
uh so yeah like i again i'm not a

1:08:42.480,1:08:46.640
unless it's someone who i'm interested

1:08:43.839,1:08:47.520
in hearing then i probably won't listen

1:08:46.640,1:08:49.440
to it i think like

1:08:47.520,1:08:50.839
like everyone else i watched the elon

1:08:49.440,1:08:53.279
musk interview

1:08:50.839,1:08:53.600
yeah um and there's been a few other

1:08:53.279,1:08:55.679
like

1:08:53.600,1:08:57.759
really interesting characters yeah but

1:08:55.679,1:08:59.600
uh yeah it's kind of wild i think he had

1:08:57.759,1:09:01.359
dave chappelle on today

1:08:59.600,1:09:03.040
i just noticed but but like dave

1:09:01.359,1:09:05.520
chappelle just popped in like towards

1:09:03.040,1:09:08.159
the very end of the episode randomly

1:09:05.520,1:09:10.799
uh with this other dude and i think he

1:09:08.159,1:09:12.880
did a couple shows actually in austin

1:09:10.799,1:09:14.159
which i had seen i had seen that online

1:09:12.880,1:09:15.679
like a week ago and i was like oh man i

1:09:14.159,1:09:19.199
gotta make it down to that

1:09:15.679,1:09:22.719
but i didn't yeah um so

1:09:19.199,1:09:25.279
but uh yeah he's a beast um

1:09:22.719,1:09:26.080
but uh anyways ben it's been fun i

1:09:25.279,1:09:28.480
appreciate it

1:09:26.080,1:09:29.679
dude no thanks so much for for having me

1:09:28.480,1:09:32.239
on here and i think uh

1:09:29.679,1:09:35.920
it'll be fun to at some point you can

1:09:32.239,1:09:37.679
flip flip the tables

1:09:35.920,1:09:39.120
questions that sounds good man where is

1:09:37.679,1:09:40.560
the best place for people to find you

1:09:39.120,1:09:46.960
online

1:09:40.560,1:09:46.960
uh skinnyinbald.com awesome