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#94 Staying On The Happy Path w/ Robert Rand

Robert is the Director of Partnerships & Alliances at Jetrails, a white-glove hosting service for eCommerce businesses, helping merchants to maximize ROI, minimize risk, and sleep better at night knowing that they have a partner committed to their success.

He also hosts the Jetrails podcast.

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rrand1/

Full transcript: https://v3.commercehero.io/podcast/94

Transcript
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i've spent a lot of time with a lot of

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merchants and heard a lot of those

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stories

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um in some cases in more depth with some

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more colorful words

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behind closed doors right right about

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things that have gone well and not gone

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as well

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[Music]

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dude i'm i'm asleep by like

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9 30 10 o'clock something like that you

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know

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yeah i've always been kind of an early

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early bird

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my wife works until around six and it's

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very close

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but um and she works uh for a non-profit

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where the kids also are

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in um daycare and preschool you know

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respectively

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right and so that they get home you know

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plus or minus six

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give give or take depending on the day

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of the week um

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and then i've we've gotta bathe and feed

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and

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do all the usual and then once you know

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like once my daughter's in bed and ate

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something

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then it's time to do the dishes and do

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the laundry and do

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you know normal household things

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yeah and then i've got to start to try

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to wind down

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and so you know i i can't possibly fall

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asleep at 9 10 o'clock i haven't even

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[Laughter]

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haven't even begun to ramp down yeah

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yeah but

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i grew up in new york and i was always a

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late night guy

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and i mean you know it was just kind of

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normal yeah

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are you a developer is your background

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as a developer or

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i'm not by trade and so i i mean in

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school

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dating i mean but by the third grade

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they were pulling me out of class for an

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hour a day to help the computer teacher

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so you know back in junior high high

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school

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college i did um you know basic q basic

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sinclair basic q basics yeah yeah that

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was my first basic

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yeah yeah you know and then c plus and

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what have you you know i can read some

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html and that sort of thing you know

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especially for where seo is concerned

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the meta information

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and other stuff but i um i do a better

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job of

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translating tech between

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everyone else and developers than i do

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um developing my myself and you'll

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appreciate this because i know that you

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have

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a deeper background on that side there's

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language involved um

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i speak two languages english and worse

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english

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i'm a typical new yorker you know

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okay like that's it you know you call

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someone that speaks three languages

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trilingual two languages bilingual one

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language american like that's all that

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they talk

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i i think as i switched schools growing

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up

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i went from french to hebrew to spanish

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i kept jumping around i never perfected

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anything and i think i feel the same way

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about

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uh coding that i never really stuck with

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anything long enough to be

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to to think in code and

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so you know the good side of it is that

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i really understand

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relational databases and um and logic

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statements and other things in a way

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that i

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understand why something might be

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possible or might not or where some of

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the challenges are going to arise where

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something's going to break down

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um i've spent time you know i i'm an

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agile

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scrum master i've project managed you

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know different projects i've

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i've had different experience in all

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sorts of facets from the

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sales and account management and project

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management and

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um as sort of a super admin um

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when it comes to some of these platforms

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like uh magento

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wordpress etc uh

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there's a lot of you know a lot of time

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on the the marketing side

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so i've been certified i'm teen ways by

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google and

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uh and other platforms and so i i'm

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extremely proficient when it comes to

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you know google analytics and ads and

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uh you know and all sorts of facets of

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conversion rate optimization and get

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involved

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in that pretty early on and so i've got

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all of these things coming together

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um but have i ever just spent

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all day professionally on one thing like

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coding out solutions not really

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and so my hat's off to the people that

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are really experts in that

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domain that go above and beyond uh and

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that do some really amazing things

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hopefully i bring value in my own way by

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um you know helping to bring those

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things to market

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and um and connect the right people and

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uh and figure out the the right things

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at the right moment

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um as more of that uh

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i don't even know what to call me

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anymore but you know director

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director of partnerships and alliances

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that's what they call me these days yeah

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that's

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that's the title i was never a huge

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title guy

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um i i roll with the punches so

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hard to say if it's always the right

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title because i'm used to doing more

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than one thing

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um and i think that that's part of the

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challenge for me that going back to my

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agency days i oversaw

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all of our e-commerce sales and strategy

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and partnerships and

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um all sorts of different things that

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you know

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uh including on on the marketing side

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you know

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going in there and identifying when

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something was stuck something wasn't

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working the way that someone else

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thought it should be um

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it's just you know and i think most

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agencies you know that that are in the

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tens of employees not hundreds have a

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lot of the same experience that

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you know the leadership wears multiple

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hats in pretty much every case

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if the place is running well you can be

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pretty sure of it

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and i think that um that going from that

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uh since then getting into partnerships

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and alliances full time

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has almost simplified

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my day but i think part of the fun of it

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and why the role works for me

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is that i'm always learning something

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new from our partners

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i'm engaged at trade shows even if this

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year they're virtual

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i get to create content and that

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includes research

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and uh and leveraging some of the

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information and skills that i i have so

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i write

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by my standards at least a lot of

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articles and

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uh participate in a lot of ebooks and

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create a you know a lot of

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the written word and i also post the jet

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rails podcast and

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get to create audio and video content as

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well

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nothing of this caliber mind you but i

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think no man i think you're

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i think it's um i think you're really

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doing a great job i was uh

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and by the way let's let's let's just

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say this is the podcast since we've been

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getting fired up and getting going oh

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now i'm in trouble i don't know

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i don't know what i've said my filter

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wasn't on yet

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we cannot we can edit that stuff out but

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um

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but uh yeah i was checking it out and um

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i i love what you're doing like the role

0:07:17.199,0:07:21.919
that you're in

0:07:18.479,0:07:23.680
um doing partnerships um for jet rails

0:07:21.919,0:07:25.840
hosting company and just bringing

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different people on to the show and kind

0:07:25.840,0:07:29.520
of connecting

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um i think it's brilliant i think it's

0:07:29.520,0:07:34.240
really um

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a smart strategy and you seem to be in a

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perfect

0:07:34.800,0:07:39.280
position to be doing it like you said

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having a lot of skills and a lot of

0:07:39.280,0:07:43.199
interests

0:07:40.560,0:07:44.800
um you know you can talk to a vendor and

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and dig into seo

0:07:44.800,0:07:48.639
dig into different things with them and

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then talk to an agency solutions partner

0:07:48.639,0:07:51.680
so i think it's a really good strategy

0:07:50.160,0:07:53.440
that you have going

0:07:51.680,0:07:55.520
i appreciate that i'll absolutely take

0:07:53.440,0:07:58.639
the compliment i'll try not to blush

0:07:55.520,0:08:01.280
too much but it's a labor of love

0:07:58.639,0:08:02.639
i i'm gonna have those partner

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conversations

0:08:02.639,0:08:05.919
in a lot of cases any way to learn about

0:08:04.800,0:08:08.240
their strengths uh

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to learn about um what's going on on

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market how our users

0:08:10.080,0:08:13.919
uh at jet rails should be leveraging

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different

0:08:13.919,0:08:18.720
um tools and strategies and you know

0:08:17.199,0:08:19.039
figuring out how we can work with some

0:08:18.720,0:08:22.639
of the

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these amazing companies and it's almost

0:08:22.639,0:08:27.919
a waste not to get that recorded and not

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to share that with the world in that

0:08:27.919,0:08:34.240
more direct fashion

0:08:29.759,0:08:36.640
so you know it came up naturally but

0:08:34.240,0:08:39.519
they're typically when we go and

0:08:36.640,0:08:39.519
interview someone

0:08:39.760,0:08:43.519
i you know we find some people ask to be

0:08:42.159,0:08:46.240
on the podcast others

0:08:43.519,0:08:46.880
we invite on um it's a little bit of a

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mix

0:08:46.880,0:08:52.399
there's no advertising so you know we're

0:08:49.760,0:08:54.880
not really focused on on that side of it

0:08:52.399,0:08:55.600
most episodes don't touch on web hosting

0:08:54.880,0:08:57.680
so

0:08:55.600,0:09:00.240
you know it's not out there specifically

0:08:57.680,0:09:01.760
to to look for a plug for jet rails

0:09:00.240,0:09:03.360
we actually think it's a great resource

0:09:01.760,0:09:04.720
for jet rail's users who don't need to

0:09:03.360,0:09:07.440
know about who we are they

0:09:04.720,0:09:08.959
work with us day in and day out as their

0:09:07.440,0:09:12.320
vendor already

0:09:08.959,0:09:13.519
and so instead of all that um i'll sit

0:09:12.320,0:09:14.880
there and i'll get a little bit of

0:09:13.519,0:09:17.600
research time

0:09:14.880,0:09:18.560
and i'll figure out you know what would

0:09:17.600,0:09:20.160
a merchant

0:09:18.560,0:09:22.080
really learn from what would a website

0:09:20.160,0:09:25.040
owner really learn from her or website

0:09:22.080,0:09:26.640
marketer or an e-commerce manager or

0:09:25.040,0:09:28.399
someone in one of these roles and not

0:09:26.640,0:09:31.519
every episode

0:09:28.399,0:09:32.399
is necessarily going to speak to every

0:09:31.519,0:09:36.160
possible

0:09:32.399,0:09:37.279
user out there and we don't mind that um

0:09:36.160,0:09:39.839
we figure that

0:09:37.279,0:09:41.839
in in the last less than two years we've

0:09:39.839,0:09:43.680
put out over 50 episodes so far and

0:09:41.839,0:09:47.120
we've got more in the can

0:09:43.680,0:09:47.680
um that the real goal there was to say

0:09:47.120,0:09:50.880
look

0:09:47.680,0:09:51.600
you know we can be thought leaders in

0:09:50.880,0:09:54.480
the space

0:09:51.600,0:09:57.279
we can keep some of these folks honest

0:09:54.480,0:09:58.959
you know i'm not a shock jock but

0:09:57.279,0:10:01.279
we're going to ask meaningful questions

0:09:58.959,0:10:03.120
and try to get at the heart of

0:10:01.279,0:10:05.120
why they do what they do how they

0:10:03.120,0:10:06.160
achieve it what's unique what's

0:10:05.120,0:10:08.000
different what are

0:10:06.160,0:10:09.680
some of the pros and cons what are

0:10:08.000,0:10:12.959
points of failure

0:10:09.680,0:10:14.160
when users think something might really

0:10:12.959,0:10:16.480
work for them you know

0:10:14.160,0:10:17.440
these businesses are are banking on it

0:10:16.480,0:10:20.320
but

0:10:17.440,0:10:21.760
something may fall by the wayside and so

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we try to take all those kind of

0:10:21.760,0:10:24.880
different things

0:10:22.560,0:10:27.200
into account put something cool together

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minimal editing it's

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i mean i suppose if you were to go

0:10:28.640,0:10:31.440
through the back catalog and listen to

0:10:30.240,0:10:32.880
all those episodes

0:10:31.440,0:10:34.560
would probably be a little bit like

0:10:32.880,0:10:36.000
being at a trade show and you get all

0:10:34.560,0:10:37.440
these different sessions on all these

0:10:36.000,0:10:40.079
different subjects

0:10:37.440,0:10:41.040
and it kind of all flows together and

0:10:40.079,0:10:42.399
that's

0:10:41.040,0:10:44.800
i don't know if we knew that that's

0:10:42.399,0:10:47.279
exactly how it would work out but

0:10:44.800,0:10:48.079
it's been fun yeah it's so crazy because

0:10:47.279,0:10:50.959
i i read

0:10:48.079,0:10:52.320
um your medium post this morning or your

0:10:50.959,0:10:53.519
linkedin post this morning where you

0:10:52.320,0:10:55.200
talked about

0:10:53.519,0:10:56.640
kind of why you did the podcast and your

0:10:55.200,0:10:58.079
philosophy behind it and the no

0:10:56.640,0:11:01.120
advertising and the kind of

0:10:58.079,0:11:02.320
informal uh conversation i was like this

0:11:01.120,0:11:05.440
is like the exact

0:11:02.320,0:11:07.760
same philosophy that i have um

0:11:05.440,0:11:09.680
on on podcasts and like you said you

0:11:07.760,0:11:12.240
enjoy kind of the informal

0:11:09.680,0:11:14.079
conversational podcasts and i'm the same

0:11:12.240,0:11:15.839
way like those are my

0:11:14.079,0:11:17.519
favorite ones to listen to or the ones

0:11:15.839,0:11:19.680
that are just kind of you know

0:11:17.519,0:11:21.360
informal go all over the place touch a

0:11:19.680,0:11:24.399
lot of different topics

0:11:21.360,0:11:26.320
um no advertising and stuff like that

0:11:24.399,0:11:28.399
and i was like man we really have kind

0:11:26.320,0:11:30.560
of a dif a similar

0:11:28.399,0:11:32.399
way of thinking about um you know the

0:11:30.560,0:11:35.600
approach to the podcast

0:11:32.399,0:11:36.959
and i suppose that you started first and

0:11:35.600,0:11:39.200
if i had to admit it

0:11:36.959,0:11:41.760
i'm sure i listened into just a few

0:11:39.200,0:11:43.360
episodes before i began so

0:11:41.760,0:11:46.320
you can draw any conclusions that you'd

0:11:43.360,0:11:46.320
like from that but

0:11:46.880,0:11:50.320
but there's definitely some great

0:11:48.800,0:11:52.800
content going on and

0:11:50.320,0:11:54.320
folks like yourself have really been

0:11:52.800,0:11:56.480
mastering the medium

0:11:54.320,0:11:57.600
uh before i ever got to it and so i

0:11:56.480,0:11:59.839
think that that

0:11:57.600,0:12:01.440
certainly helped pave the way uh but

0:11:59.839,0:12:04.639
it's funny that when i

0:12:01.440,0:12:06.639
when i'm on my own time and listening to

0:12:04.639,0:12:08.839
podcasts which i absolutely do

0:12:06.639,0:12:11.120
uh it's hard to get me to wash the

0:12:08.839,0:12:13.760
dishes you know do certain things

0:12:11.120,0:12:15.200
without oh yeah podcast in my ears yeah

0:12:13.760,0:12:17.680
yeah

0:12:15.200,0:12:19.680
you know what i listen to is really a

0:12:17.680,0:12:22.720
mix of

0:12:19.680,0:12:25.440
science and economics and um

0:12:22.720,0:12:26.000
comedy and and all sorts of things but

0:12:25.440,0:12:28.000
there are

0:12:26.000,0:12:29.120
a few choice ones in our industry

0:12:28.000,0:12:30.959
including

0:12:29.120,0:12:32.720
um and sometimes these are videos that

0:12:30.959,0:12:35.920
i'll watch on youtube or

0:12:32.720,0:12:38.880
uh you know so there are differences in

0:12:35.920,0:12:41.279
in the mediums that are used but um tj

0:12:38.880,0:12:44.079
with e-commerce aholic is fantastic

0:12:41.279,0:12:45.760
and um i've enjoyed uh the episodes the

0:12:44.079,0:12:46.880
commerce party has put out the team at

0:12:45.760,0:12:50.160
chipperhq

0:12:46.880,0:12:51.600
and um i'm this is going to feel like an

0:12:50.160,0:12:52.720
award speech for me where i know that

0:12:51.600,0:12:54.160
i'm going to miss somebody and they're

0:12:52.720,0:12:55.600
going to be upset with me but

0:12:54.160,0:12:57.200
but there's some really good ones out

0:12:55.600,0:12:59.519
there that i do enjoy

0:12:57.200,0:13:00.560
um but i'll also admit that i i pick and

0:12:59.519,0:13:03.760
choose episodes

0:13:00.560,0:13:05.519
so you know i

0:13:03.760,0:13:06.959
i find that sometimes there are topics

0:13:05.519,0:13:08.079
where let's say there's a merchant being

0:13:06.959,0:13:10.480
interviewed which

0:13:08.079,0:13:11.279
you know for me when i go to a trade

0:13:10.480,0:13:13.440
show

0:13:11.279,0:13:15.360
i i sit in on the sessions that are

0:13:13.440,0:13:16.800
about product road maps and i sit in on

0:13:15.360,0:13:18.079
the sessions that are about new tech i

0:13:16.800,0:13:21.200
haven't seen before

0:13:18.079,0:13:22.639
i remember when gdpr came about and as

0:13:21.200,0:13:23.920
much as it was painful to sit through

0:13:22.639,0:13:24.720
some of those sessions there were so

0:13:23.920,0:13:27.360
many

0:13:24.720,0:13:28.560
i picked and chose and um and i found

0:13:27.360,0:13:29.760
that to be interesting and i

0:13:28.560,0:13:33.120
and there are some that i think there's

0:13:29.760,0:13:34.880
always new highlights so you look at

0:13:33.120,0:13:36.800
multi-channel integration and

0:13:34.880,0:13:39.680
omni-channel and unified commerce

0:13:36.800,0:13:41.360
and their shifts in the market and it's

0:13:39.680,0:13:42.639
interesting to see when people come with

0:13:41.360,0:13:45.040
fresh data

0:13:42.639,0:13:47.440
uh what's actually happening because

0:13:45.040,0:13:50.079
there are so many legacy brands that

0:13:47.440,0:13:51.680
have a hard time doing that stuff well

0:13:50.079,0:13:53.519
you know they've got old-fashioned point

0:13:51.680,0:13:55.519
of sale in their retail stores they've

0:13:53.519,0:13:56.560
got now these online sales channels that

0:13:55.519,0:13:58.800
don't really

0:13:56.560,0:13:59.920
connect well this year a lot of

0:13:58.800,0:14:02.480
companies have had

0:13:59.920,0:14:03.760
really no choice but to catch up to it

0:14:02.480,0:14:05.360
but we've known those and we've been

0:14:03.760,0:14:06.720
watching those trends for a long time so

0:14:05.360,0:14:08.720
i'll sit in for a lot of that but

0:14:06.720,0:14:10.720
sometimes there'll be

0:14:08.720,0:14:11.760
you know sessions that i you know as a

0:14:10.720,0:14:14.720
partnership

0:14:11.760,0:14:16.720
uh person i need to be out there

0:14:14.720,0:14:17.279
networking and i can't sit in on every

0:14:16.720,0:14:19.199
session

0:14:17.279,0:14:20.720
and so i kind of find that when i pick

0:14:19.199,0:14:21.600
those podcast episodes within the

0:14:20.720,0:14:24.480
industry that

0:14:21.600,0:14:26.639
i follow the same lines which may not be

0:14:24.480,0:14:27.920
what the merchants would choose

0:14:26.639,0:14:30.480
which is interesting you know that they

0:14:27.920,0:14:33.360
may be a lot more moved by listening to

0:14:30.480,0:14:34.720
other merchants up there on a panel

0:14:33.360,0:14:36.079
talking about their trials and

0:14:34.720,0:14:37.680
tribulations

0:14:36.079,0:14:39.120
where i've spent a lot of time with a

0:14:37.680,0:14:40.560
lot of merchants and heard a lot of

0:14:39.120,0:14:42.240
those stories

0:14:40.560,0:14:43.600
in some cases in more depth with some

0:14:42.240,0:14:46.720
more colorful words

0:14:43.600,0:14:48.399
behind closed doors right right about

0:14:46.720,0:14:49.279
things that have gone well and not gone

0:14:48.399,0:14:51.680
as well

0:14:49.279,0:14:52.800
yeah you know and i continue to and so i

0:14:51.680,0:14:54.639
think that that

0:14:52.800,0:14:56.320
um that's interesting that we all try to

0:14:54.639,0:14:58.959
figure out uh

0:14:56.320,0:15:00.079
what our interests are versus how we can

0:14:58.959,0:15:02.079
bring value

0:15:00.079,0:15:04.000
um to the larger market and those two

0:15:02.079,0:15:05.600
things just like everything else in our

0:15:04.000,0:15:08.160
industry are not the same

0:15:05.600,0:15:10.079
i feel that tension as well and i think

0:15:08.160,0:15:11.600
like again that the podcast that i like

0:15:10.079,0:15:14.880
the most

0:15:11.600,0:15:17.760
are the ones where the host is just

0:15:14.880,0:15:19.519
genuinely interested in the guests that

0:15:17.760,0:15:21.360
they bring on and the topics and

0:15:19.519,0:15:22.160
sometimes the topics will go a direction

0:15:21.360,0:15:24.000
that i'm not

0:15:22.160,0:15:25.920
really interested in and sometimes i'll

0:15:24.000,0:15:28.480
get interested in the topic because i'm

0:15:25.920,0:15:31.040
interested in the podcast

0:15:28.480,0:15:32.000
but i feel that tension of like trying

0:15:31.040,0:15:35.120
to do stuff

0:15:32.000,0:15:37.120
that is specific and valuable and

0:15:35.120,0:15:39.199
actionable to an audience

0:15:37.120,0:15:41.120
uh versus just the the type of

0:15:39.199,0:15:43.199
conversations i enjoy

0:15:41.120,0:15:45.279
like almost trying to recreate the

0:15:43.199,0:15:46.959
hallway track at a conference

0:15:45.279,0:15:48.560
um like when i'm at a conference and i'm

0:15:46.959,0:15:50.320
just talking to people like we you know

0:15:48.560,0:15:50.720
we've talked at new york and things like

0:15:50.320,0:15:53.279
that

0:15:50.720,0:15:54.639
and just random stuff whatever comes to

0:15:53.279,0:15:57.680
mind whether it's talking about

0:15:54.639,0:16:00.000
doing podcasts or talking about um

0:15:57.680,0:16:01.519
you know like the e-commerce vendor

0:16:00.000,0:16:03.040
space or whatever it may not be

0:16:01.519,0:16:06.240
actionable to a merchant

0:16:03.040,0:16:07.920
but it's like you kind of gotta um

0:16:06.240,0:16:09.519
focus on what you're interested in

0:16:07.920,0:16:10.800
otherwise you know

0:16:09.519,0:16:12.720
i i don't know i don't know if it'll

0:16:10.800,0:16:15.920
last you know well

0:16:12.720,0:16:17.120
and you know phrase that i use very

0:16:15.920,0:16:18.880
often is

0:16:17.120,0:16:20.639
you know in e-commerce it takes a

0:16:18.880,0:16:23.279
village that

0:16:20.639,0:16:24.079
to run a really strong ecommerce program

0:16:23.279,0:16:25.839
you've got

0:16:24.079,0:16:27.279
things that relate to payments and

0:16:25.839,0:16:29.440
shipping and taxes

0:16:27.279,0:16:30.399
on the checkout side and you've got

0:16:29.440,0:16:33.519
things you know

0:16:30.399,0:16:36.320
issues related to speed and security and

0:16:33.519,0:16:39.920
scalability on the hosting side and

0:16:36.320,0:16:42.160
um you've got uh you know front-end

0:16:39.920,0:16:44.880
communication and back-end communication

0:16:42.160,0:16:47.199
as it relates to things like live chat

0:16:44.880,0:16:48.959
on the front door um perhaps you know

0:16:47.199,0:16:50.959
email marketing and

0:16:48.959,0:16:52.639
multi-channel marketing on on the back

0:16:50.959,0:16:54.639
end to keep people coming back and

0:16:52.639,0:16:56.000
keep them engaged and you've got all

0:16:54.639,0:16:58.560
these things happening

0:16:56.000,0:17:00.320
and it's always changing so you know the

0:16:58.560,0:17:01.279
social media platforms that need to be

0:17:00.320,0:17:04.319
interconnected

0:17:01.279,0:17:04.880
the uh the way that shoppers are gonna

0:17:04.319,0:17:06.400
react

0:17:04.880,0:17:08.240
to marketing whether it comes to them

0:17:06.400,0:17:11.280
through an email versus let's say

0:17:08.240,0:17:14.240
sms which is an old conversation but uh

0:17:11.280,0:17:16.160
the numbers change and so as with

0:17:14.240,0:17:19.839
everything else in technology

0:17:16.160,0:17:21.839
either you stay ahead of it or you don't

0:17:19.839,0:17:23.199
so i i think even for those of us that

0:17:21.839,0:17:25.679
live and breathe it

0:17:23.199,0:17:26.400
we've got to put our heads together to

0:17:25.679,0:17:29.919
understand

0:17:26.400,0:17:31.840
where the trend lines are going and

0:17:29.919,0:17:33.520
we'll all individually see different

0:17:31.840,0:17:35.919
things based upon

0:17:33.520,0:17:37.919
where we are in the stream so with

0:17:35.919,0:17:39.919
hosting we see immediately

0:17:37.919,0:17:43.200
when there are increases in traffic and

0:17:39.919,0:17:45.280
demand on sites that's an obvious for us

0:17:43.200,0:17:47.039
but we don't necessarily see what the

0:17:45.280,0:17:47.919
marketing plans are or what the

0:17:47.039,0:17:50.080
investment is

0:17:47.919,0:17:52.720
into the site into what's coming next

0:17:50.080,0:17:56.559
until a little bit farther down the pike

0:17:52.720,0:18:00.080
in so many cases and so you know

0:17:56.559,0:18:01.600
what we kind of uh while anonymizing you

0:18:00.080,0:18:04.320
know well certainly uh

0:18:01.600,0:18:05.280
you know keeping confidentiality in play

0:18:04.320,0:18:08.640
we get to

0:18:05.280,0:18:10.720
learn and anticipate um and help uh

0:18:08.640,0:18:12.080
be thought leaders um you know at jet

0:18:10.720,0:18:14.400
rails a lot of our users

0:18:12.080,0:18:16.160
um you know come to us through their web

0:18:14.400,0:18:17.360
agencies that are building their sites

0:18:16.160,0:18:19.120
maintaining their sites

0:18:17.360,0:18:21.600
but a lot of their use a lot of our

0:18:19.120,0:18:22.720
users don't have an agency they have

0:18:21.600,0:18:25.039
in-house developers

0:18:22.720,0:18:26.080
and they're not at all those trade shows

0:18:25.039,0:18:27.840
and they don't always

0:18:26.080,0:18:29.360
have all those contacts and so they'll

0:18:27.840,0:18:32.559
actually uh

0:18:29.360,0:18:34.080
lean on us and our partner network um

0:18:32.559,0:18:35.520
and you know what we're doing they'll

0:18:34.080,0:18:37.679
even send us to trade shows with

0:18:35.520,0:18:41.520
questions to ask

0:18:37.679,0:18:43.280
so you know it's an interesting place to

0:18:41.520,0:18:45.760
sit

0:18:43.280,0:18:46.400
and like i say because it's always

0:18:45.760,0:18:50.000
changing

0:18:46.400,0:18:52.240
um you really can't afford to sit it out

0:18:50.000,0:18:53.679
and i think it's really um smart what

0:18:52.240,0:18:54.240
you're doing like you said there's no

0:18:53.679,0:18:57.760
direct

0:18:54.240,0:19:00.320
jet rails ads on the podcast

0:18:57.760,0:19:02.400
and you just talk to a variety of people

0:19:00.320,0:19:03.120
from vendors to agencies and things like

0:19:02.400,0:19:04.559
that

0:19:03.120,0:19:07.039
and just talk about the things that

0:19:04.559,0:19:09.200
you're interested in and stuff like that

0:19:07.039,0:19:10.640
um you know i have some hosting

0:19:09.200,0:19:11.760
companies that i'm friendly with and

0:19:10.640,0:19:14.320
stuff like that but i've

0:19:11.760,0:19:15.760
i've heard uh recently a couple of

0:19:14.320,0:19:17.360
people using they just mentioned they

0:19:15.760,0:19:19.440
were using jet rails

0:19:17.360,0:19:21.440
and you know i've seen your content

0:19:19.440,0:19:23.440
bubbling up and stuff like that

0:19:21.440,0:19:25.520
and um you know that's kind of the way

0:19:23.440,0:19:26.320
it works like you hear a couple of times

0:19:25.520,0:19:28.480
about

0:19:26.320,0:19:29.360
um somebody getting used by somebody you

0:19:28.480,0:19:31.760
know

0:19:29.360,0:19:32.480
um and then you go okay interesting like

0:19:31.760,0:19:34.400
that you know

0:19:32.480,0:19:37.200
and then those data points start to add

0:19:34.400,0:19:38.640
up and you go like all right this is uh

0:19:37.200,0:19:40.320
you know they they probably are doing a

0:19:38.640,0:19:42.880
good job of it um

0:19:40.320,0:19:44.240
so i think it's it's smart the way

0:19:42.880,0:19:47.600
you're handling it

0:19:44.240,0:19:49.840
well again you know much appreciated

0:19:47.600,0:19:51.360
uh you know we always hope that the

0:19:49.840,0:19:52.640
strategies work out in the long run

0:19:51.360,0:19:53.120
because a lot of these things you know

0:19:52.640,0:19:57.039
when you

0:19:53.120,0:19:59.840
go out there creating content and uh

0:19:57.039,0:20:00.559
and not everything goes viral not

0:19:59.840,0:20:03.120
everything

0:20:00.559,0:20:04.720
is gonna be a home run um not every

0:20:03.120,0:20:07.200
interview is gonna be

0:20:04.720,0:20:09.520
is to have the the biggest impact or

0:20:07.200,0:20:12.000
attract the largest audience

0:20:09.520,0:20:12.880
and so you know if you go at it with a

0:20:12.000,0:20:14.559
mindset of

0:20:12.880,0:20:16.320
i'm going to really just you know give

0:20:14.559,0:20:19.600
it my all and do something

0:20:16.320,0:20:21.200
really valuable over time

0:20:19.600,0:20:22.640
generally these kind of strategies work

0:20:21.200,0:20:23.520
i think it's the same for these same

0:20:22.640,0:20:25.679
businesses for

0:20:23.520,0:20:26.799
for these e-commerce businesses when

0:20:25.679,0:20:28.960
they think about

0:20:26.799,0:20:31.440
their own strategies and so you know you

0:20:28.960,0:20:33.679
don't write a blog post a quarter

0:20:31.440,0:20:36.240
and expect to really move the needle on

0:20:33.679,0:20:38.480
your marketing machine

0:20:36.240,0:20:40.400
at the same time you don't want to flood

0:20:38.480,0:20:43.280
uh all of your channels

0:20:40.400,0:20:43.919
with a lot of not to put it in too

0:20:43.280,0:20:47.200
negative

0:20:43.919,0:20:50.080
a term but meat content that really

0:20:47.200,0:20:50.799
isn't as impactful and won't serve the

0:20:50.080,0:20:53.120
user

0:20:50.799,0:20:54.080
in you know the shopper or whomever else

0:20:53.120,0:20:57.360
in the same way

0:20:54.080,0:21:00.080
so it's finding um a lot of that balance

0:20:57.360,0:21:01.600
and you know for jet rails as a brand i

0:21:00.080,0:21:03.120
think that we're in a really unique

0:21:01.600,0:21:06.159
space

0:21:03.120,0:21:08.400
there are a limited number of uh of web

0:21:06.159,0:21:09.760
hosts that really do specialize in the

0:21:08.400,0:21:12.960
e-commerce

0:21:09.760,0:21:15.039
world in the way that we do and a lot of

0:21:12.960,0:21:17.120
those companies focus on smb

0:21:15.039,0:21:18.320
on shared or multi-tenant hosting where

0:21:17.120,0:21:20.320
we're really

0:21:18.320,0:21:22.080
all about dedicated hosting single

0:21:20.320,0:21:24.960
tenant environments whether

0:21:22.080,0:21:25.679
uh on servers or on the cloud and so

0:21:24.960,0:21:27.120
we're already

0:21:25.679,0:21:29.360
speaking to a little bit of a different

0:21:27.120,0:21:31.600
market segment and some now for

0:21:29.360,0:21:32.480
our podcast our blog a lot of the

0:21:31.600,0:21:35.600
content

0:21:32.480,0:21:36.559
is useful for you know anyone uh in the

0:21:35.600,0:21:39.280
space

0:21:36.559,0:21:40.320
however we do focus a little bit more

0:21:39.280,0:21:43.039
toward that uh

0:21:40.320,0:21:44.000
that more established uh market of

0:21:43.039,0:21:45.360
businesses that

0:21:44.000,0:21:46.640
they've probably dabbled in some of

0:21:45.360,0:21:48.480
these things they've they're probably

0:21:46.640,0:21:50.559
doing something already and they could

0:21:48.480,0:21:52.000
use information to hone their strategy

0:21:50.559,0:21:55.120
or to to

0:21:52.000,0:21:56.720
you know pick it up a few a few knots

0:21:55.120,0:21:59.039
there's a few pegs

0:21:56.720,0:22:01.039
put it in overdrive and and so i think

0:21:59.039,0:22:03.520
that that's also a differentiator there

0:22:01.039,0:22:05.760
are a lot of podcasts that focus on

0:22:03.520,0:22:07.600
how to get started in e-commerce and

0:22:05.760,0:22:09.679
we're really more focused on how to

0:22:07.600,0:22:11.360
thrive with the e-commerce channels that

0:22:09.679,0:22:14.480
you've already been

0:22:11.360,0:22:16.880
building and engaging with what um

0:22:14.480,0:22:19.120
what type of uh customers are ideal for

0:22:16.880,0:22:21.919
you guys as far as

0:22:19.120,0:22:23.679
the size the scale you know the type of

0:22:21.919,0:22:25.600
needs that that they would have as a

0:22:23.679,0:22:29.039
merchant

0:22:25.600,0:22:31.600
so you know we do

0:22:29.039,0:22:33.120
service a few platforms if you want to

0:22:31.600,0:22:36.000
think about it that way

0:22:33.120,0:22:37.840
so magento is our number one by far uh

0:22:36.000,0:22:40.159
but we're partnered with big commerce to

0:22:37.840,0:22:42.640
service users that

0:22:40.159,0:22:44.559
go headless and have a different front

0:22:42.640,0:22:47.840
end

0:22:44.559,0:22:49.600
running side by side with bigcommerce

0:22:47.840,0:22:51.360
we can also host custom apps and so

0:22:49.600,0:22:53.280
whether that's for shopify users or

0:22:51.360,0:22:55.520
bigcommerce or elsewhere

0:22:53.280,0:22:58.240
so all that certainly applies anyone

0:22:55.520,0:23:00.320
that's basically in need of linux uh

0:22:58.240,0:23:02.400
based hosting whether that's you know

0:23:00.320,0:23:04.240
woocommerce x card prestashop but like i

0:23:02.400,0:23:06.000
say we found a huge alignment in the

0:23:04.240,0:23:07.280
magento community it's where we're most

0:23:06.000,0:23:10.240
active

0:23:07.280,0:23:12.720
outside of of that we service some some

0:23:10.240,0:23:15.600
larger drupal and wordpress sites

0:23:12.720,0:23:16.720
um and again some completely custom uh

0:23:15.600,0:23:19.200
sites that that uh

0:23:16.720,0:23:20.159
really thrive in a linux environment so

0:23:19.200,0:23:22.880
in terms of

0:23:20.159,0:23:24.480
you know who we're servicing the

0:23:22.880,0:23:27.280
technology stack is

0:23:24.480,0:23:27.760
generally where it starts um from there

0:23:27.280,0:23:30.480
you know

0:23:27.760,0:23:30.799
our team has clients around the globe

0:23:30.480,0:23:32.799
but

0:23:30.799,0:23:34.640
most of them are here in north america

0:23:32.799,0:23:36.880
uh so you'll see a lot of our

0:23:34.640,0:23:38.640
marketing efforts um you know we're

0:23:36.880,0:23:39.200
focused on the english-speaking markets

0:23:38.640,0:23:41.520
where

0:23:39.200,0:23:44.000
uh you know speaking uh about and and

0:23:41.520,0:23:46.080
with uh american and canadian businesses

0:23:44.000,0:23:47.679
and um that's where a larger part of our

0:23:46.080,0:23:49.520
focus is even though we've got some some

0:23:47.679,0:23:50.320
great clients and great partners around

0:23:49.520,0:23:53.919
the globe

0:23:50.320,0:23:55.200
in terms of size and scale i said we

0:23:53.919,0:23:57.360
typically start with

0:23:55.200,0:23:58.320
uh you know dedicated server and our

0:23:57.360,0:24:01.120
larger users

0:23:58.320,0:24:03.360
we deploy auto scaling environments with

0:24:01.120,0:24:05.600
aws

0:24:03.360,0:24:06.400
we can also uh help people with digital

0:24:05.600,0:24:09.600
ocean

0:24:06.400,0:24:13.039
and so when we

0:24:09.600,0:24:14.240
think about that you're typically at a

0:24:13.039,0:24:15.440
certain point you're either an

0:24:14.240,0:24:17.520
established company

0:24:15.440,0:24:20.000
that has a site that you really care

0:24:17.520,0:24:24.000
about the speed the scalability

0:24:20.000,0:24:26.400
the security the the overall um

0:24:24.000,0:24:27.919
the overall metrics uh you know that are

0:24:26.400,0:24:32.000
going to be important to you of course

0:24:27.919,0:24:34.080
scalability or you need more flexibility

0:24:32.000,0:24:36.080
so we actually see a lot of users that

0:24:34.080,0:24:37.440
um come over from places like magento's

0:24:36.080,0:24:40.000
commerce cloud

0:24:37.440,0:24:40.640
where that's a more rigid environment

0:24:40.000,0:24:42.240
and

0:24:40.640,0:24:45.039
you know it's it's certainly a growing

0:24:42.240,0:24:47.039
market but they're going to be

0:24:45.039,0:24:48.960
you know those segment of users that

0:24:47.039,0:24:50.159
need a higher touch support that need

0:24:48.960,0:24:52.000
more flexibility

0:24:50.159,0:24:53.440
and tailoring and optimization in the

0:24:52.000,0:24:55.200
environment itself

0:24:53.440,0:24:56.640
and so we complement well within the

0:24:55.200,0:24:57.600
market rather than see that as a

0:24:56.640,0:25:00.240
competitor

0:24:57.600,0:25:02.400
we really see ourselves as segmented and

0:25:00.240,0:25:04.559
differentiated

0:25:02.400,0:25:05.840
where i think you know some others see

0:25:04.559,0:25:08.960
it as more of a head-on

0:25:05.840,0:25:11.279
competition for us

0:25:08.960,0:25:12.960
we know vis-a-vis members of magento's

0:25:11.279,0:25:15.360
team that they need us there

0:25:12.960,0:25:16.400
to be able to service that segment

0:25:15.360,0:25:19.840
that's not a fit

0:25:16.400,0:25:20.480
for for commerce cloud and um and so we

0:25:19.840,0:25:21.919
do see

0:25:20.480,0:25:25.039
these different things so it'll go from

0:25:21.919,0:25:26.720
that um that more established magento

0:25:25.039,0:25:30.480
open source or other

0:25:26.720,0:25:32.000
uh open source site that's doing

0:25:30.480,0:25:33.840
typically on on average into the

0:25:32.000,0:25:36.720
millions in online revenue

0:25:33.840,0:25:38.320
uh and you know we service companies

0:25:36.720,0:25:40.799
that are in the billions in

0:25:38.320,0:25:42.000
in revenue and so there's really the

0:25:40.799,0:25:44.640
sky's the limit

0:25:42.000,0:25:45.600
on the upper side of it and a lot of

0:25:44.640,0:25:48.240
folks really they

0:25:45.600,0:25:49.440
they come to us for a more holistic

0:25:48.240,0:25:52.159
approach to it

0:25:49.440,0:25:53.200
we do so everything that we do uh

0:25:52.159,0:25:55.279
generally speaking

0:25:53.200,0:25:56.320
and we do have like consulting services

0:25:55.279,0:25:58.480
outside of just

0:25:56.320,0:25:59.919
managing someone's hosting but a

0:25:58.480,0:26:00.960
majority of our users come to us for

0:25:59.919,0:26:02.640
fully managed

0:26:00.960,0:26:04.400
highly optimized hosting where we're

0:26:02.640,0:26:05.760
doing the all the

0:26:04.400,0:26:08.080
maintenance and management and

0:26:05.760,0:26:09.919
monitoring we're taking care of

0:26:08.080,0:26:11.760
the content delivery network the web

0:26:09.919,0:26:14.320
application firewalling intrusion

0:26:11.760,0:26:17.760
detection systems malware scanning

0:26:14.320,0:26:18.960
caching layers um you know off server

0:26:17.760,0:26:23.120
backups and

0:26:18.960,0:26:24.880
dns and you know goes

0:26:23.120,0:26:26.480
it feels like every month you know

0:26:24.880,0:26:27.360
there's something else that's in the

0:26:26.480,0:26:29.840
stack

0:26:27.360,0:26:31.120
um not necessarily because there wasn't

0:26:29.840,0:26:32.480
already enough but

0:26:31.120,0:26:34.720
going back to that thought that the

0:26:32.480,0:26:37.600
technology is is always

0:26:34.720,0:26:38.000
uh improving and um you know that we

0:26:37.600,0:26:40.720
want to make

0:26:38.000,0:26:42.080
sure that our users basically can sleep

0:26:40.720,0:26:44.159
well at night knowing that that's taken

0:26:42.080,0:26:45.440
care of they can focus on

0:26:44.159,0:26:46.480
growing their business and they don't

0:26:45.440,0:26:47.760
have to worry as much about the

0:26:46.480,0:26:49.360
infrastructure

0:26:47.760,0:26:51.360
we have a knock a network operations

0:26:49.360,0:26:53.919
center and we're monitoring

0:26:51.360,0:26:55.200
these systems 24 7. so typically if

0:26:53.919,0:26:56.880
there is an issue

0:26:55.200,0:26:58.159
we're going to know first we're going to

0:26:56.880,0:27:00.880
alert the customer we're going to be

0:26:58.159,0:27:04.640
working together on mitigation

0:27:00.880,0:27:07.919
as opposed to the the more

0:27:04.640,0:27:08.320
you know reactive style hosting that so

0:27:07.919,0:27:10.559
many

0:27:08.320,0:27:12.080
are accustomed to where you're basically

0:27:10.559,0:27:13.679
given a prefab environment

0:27:12.080,0:27:15.520
and you're told here make your

0:27:13.679,0:27:17.039
application work within this if you need

0:27:15.520,0:27:18.559
us we're over here

0:27:17.039,0:27:20.799
we take the opposite approach and we

0:27:18.559,0:27:22.159
start by sizing them out

0:27:20.799,0:27:24.640
making sure that they get the right

0:27:22.159,0:27:26.559
environment for their particular needs

0:27:24.640,0:27:28.640
optimizing around their application and

0:27:26.559,0:27:31.919
going through a user acceptance testing

0:27:28.640,0:27:34.080
procedure and

0:27:31.919,0:27:36.000
and from there continuing to stay on

0:27:34.080,0:27:37.520
with dedicated account management and

0:27:36.000,0:27:39.600
other resources that are helping to

0:27:37.520,0:27:42.320
track success and make sure that

0:27:39.600,0:27:43.840
things stay healthy so like uh you know

0:27:42.320,0:27:46.240
recently there

0:27:43.840,0:27:47.679
there was uh an attack on magento one

0:27:46.240,0:27:50.720
site's card bleed

0:27:47.679,0:27:51.840
and we saw a lot of hosts including big

0:27:50.720,0:27:55.600
names um

0:27:51.840,0:27:58.880
with slews of sites that were impacted

0:27:55.600,0:28:01.360
our security held steadfast

0:27:58.880,0:28:02.640
and so our network remained in good

0:28:01.360,0:28:05.279
standing against that

0:28:02.640,0:28:06.559
attack and uh my you know security

0:28:05.279,0:28:08.000
diligence

0:28:06.559,0:28:10.240
yeah my understanding on that one is

0:28:08.000,0:28:12.960
that it was related to the downloader

0:28:10.240,0:28:14.159
um having the downloader uh package

0:28:12.960,0:28:16.880
directory in there

0:28:14.159,0:28:18.480
and that like most most people that are

0:28:16.880,0:28:20.640
paying attention to their best practices

0:28:18.480,0:28:22.320
are going to already have that disabled

0:28:20.640,0:28:24.240
um is that something you guys kind of

0:28:22.320,0:28:26.480
have disabled across the boards

0:28:24.240,0:28:28.240
so that's precisely it that we don't

0:28:26.480,0:28:30.080
know why anyone would allow

0:28:28.240,0:28:33.120
the outside world to get to the

0:28:30.080,0:28:35.039
downloader folder or the magento admin

0:28:33.120,0:28:36.640
whether on you know magento one magenta

0:28:35.039,0:28:39.600
two the same would apply for other

0:28:36.640,0:28:40.640
cms platforms that that should be

0:28:39.600,0:28:43.120
whitelist

0:28:40.640,0:28:45.039
access only um it should be you know

0:28:43.120,0:28:46.559
firewalled and locked down

0:28:45.039,0:28:47.760
there are certainly lots of other assets

0:28:46.559,0:28:49.840
like that and if you're paying attention

0:28:47.760,0:28:53.440
to pci and other compliance

0:28:49.840,0:28:55.440
those things are important but

0:28:53.440,0:28:57.039
if within give or take a weekend

0:28:55.440,0:28:57.679
something like two or three thousand

0:28:57.039,0:29:01.039
sites were

0:28:57.679,0:29:02.399
impacted uh you know that says that even

0:29:01.039,0:29:05.679
though a lot of folks are

0:29:02.399,0:29:08.480
watching these things not everyone is

0:29:05.679,0:29:10.399
um and so i think one of the things that

0:29:08.480,0:29:12.399
jet rail's customers appreciate is that

0:29:10.399,0:29:15.600
they don't have this piecemeal

0:29:12.399,0:29:17.600
uh impact where they're expected to go

0:29:15.600,0:29:18.159
get their own firewalling and have their

0:29:17.600,0:29:20.000
own

0:29:18.159,0:29:21.360
malware scans and intrusion detection

0:29:20.000,0:29:24.159
all these other things

0:29:21.360,0:29:24.799
uh one by one and we know in in the

0:29:24.159,0:29:26.399
industry

0:29:24.799,0:29:28.080
that a lot of the major security

0:29:26.399,0:29:29.520
incidents that we all read about in the

0:29:28.080,0:29:31.440
news

0:29:29.520,0:29:33.840
they happen not because these big

0:29:31.440,0:29:35.360
companies don't have good security

0:29:33.840,0:29:36.320
systems to alert them when something's

0:29:35.360,0:29:37.679
happening

0:29:36.320,0:29:39.679
it's because nobody's watching those

0:29:37.679,0:29:41.600
systems so you know what

0:29:39.679,0:29:43.200
target home depot whomever it is you

0:29:41.600,0:29:45.120
know they uh

0:29:43.200,0:29:46.240
they're getting alerts but no one's

0:29:45.120,0:29:48.080
acting on it

0:29:46.240,0:29:49.840
and so that's an equally important part

0:29:48.080,0:29:52.000
of the process so

0:29:49.840,0:29:52.880
uh you know whether it's for our users

0:29:52.000,0:29:55.760
that are are still

0:29:52.880,0:29:57.840
on magenta one um and have unique

0:29:55.760,0:30:00.080
security needs as a result

0:29:57.840,0:30:02.880
um whether it's for folks that are on

0:30:00.080,0:30:06.640
fully supported platforms

0:30:02.880,0:30:08.159
when left to their own devices security

0:30:06.640,0:30:10.000
a lot of these businesses don't have a

0:30:08.159,0:30:12.320
chief security officer

0:30:10.000,0:30:14.320
or you know someone that's in charge of

0:30:12.320,0:30:16.880
compliance

0:30:14.320,0:30:18.559
they benefit from having a team that's

0:30:16.880,0:30:19.919
going to handle it more holistically and

0:30:18.559,0:30:21.520
so that's

0:30:19.919,0:30:24.080
i think part of where the industry is

0:30:21.520,0:30:25.440
headed um in general is

0:30:24.080,0:30:27.279
looking for that you know we've

0:30:25.440,0:30:29.120
certainly found that it's been really

0:30:27.279,0:30:31.120
well received in market

0:30:29.120,0:30:32.880
nice i i mean i have to say i think

0:30:31.120,0:30:33.760
you're very diplomatic the way you

0:30:32.880,0:30:36.640
described

0:30:33.760,0:30:38.080
the magento cloud situation uh well i

0:30:36.640,0:30:39.600
don't have to use it on a day-to-day

0:30:38.080,0:30:41.279
basis so

0:30:39.600,0:30:42.640
you know i can't speak from first-hand

0:30:41.279,0:30:45.919
experience i know that

0:30:42.640,0:30:46.799
i saw a video recently from uh you might

0:30:45.919,0:30:50.000
have seen

0:30:46.799,0:30:52.720
yeah mark put out a good one which i

0:30:50.000,0:30:54.320
think you know shared his personal views

0:30:52.720,0:30:56.480
and frustrations

0:30:54.320,0:30:57.440
i talked to a lot of agencies we have a

0:30:56.480,0:31:00.240
lot of uh

0:30:57.440,0:31:02.559
partners that are that happen to also be

0:31:00.240,0:31:04.720
magento partners

0:31:02.559,0:31:05.919
and they share a lot of the same

0:31:04.720,0:31:08.240
frustrations

0:31:05.919,0:31:10.159
uh i spoke to one this morning uh to an

0:31:08.240,0:31:10.880
agency that's that's not yet a jet rails

0:31:10.159,0:31:14.080
partner

0:31:10.880,0:31:15.600
um but that was describing exactly the

0:31:14.080,0:31:17.200
same thing that you know when they they

0:31:15.600,0:31:18.880
bring a merchant to magento they'll

0:31:17.200,0:31:20.799
advise the the merchant

0:31:18.880,0:31:22.720
on how to try to negotiate for an

0:31:20.799,0:31:23.840
on-prem license at a more reasonable

0:31:22.720,0:31:26.440
price

0:31:23.840,0:31:27.679
because if they don't go in on licensed

0:31:26.440,0:31:30.880
negotiation

0:31:27.679,0:31:31.679
yeah well the you know i think the way

0:31:30.880,0:31:33.440
that some people

0:31:31.679,0:31:35.519
have described it it's almost like if

0:31:33.440,0:31:39.120
the magento sales team member

0:31:35.519,0:31:40.640
goes back uh to the sales management

0:31:39.120,0:31:42.080
team there with a piece of paper that

0:31:40.640,0:31:44.840
says on-prem they're gonna have to do

0:31:42.080,0:31:47.440
the walk of shame

0:31:44.840,0:31:49.840
right you know to us

0:31:47.440,0:31:51.840
i i think that you know we recognize

0:31:49.840,0:31:53.840
that adobe made a major acquisition in

0:31:51.840,0:31:56.399
magenta we recognize that

0:31:53.840,0:31:56.960
uh they are a major player in the space

0:31:56.399,0:32:00.399
and will

0:31:56.960,0:32:02.799
continue to be and so re and

0:32:00.399,0:32:05.120
we're thankful um for our role in the

0:32:02.799,0:32:07.039
magento ecosystem and in the community

0:32:05.120,0:32:08.480
uh our goal is not to butt heads our

0:32:07.039,0:32:12.240
goal is not to

0:32:08.480,0:32:16.799
um be inflammatory or or to go um

0:32:12.240,0:32:19.120
go at it uh in an adversarial way

0:32:16.799,0:32:21.120
there's enough out there for us um we're

0:32:19.120,0:32:22.960
quite you know happy with our growth

0:32:21.120,0:32:25.279
trajectory

0:32:22.960,0:32:26.799
and uh you know we know that the magento

0:32:25.279,0:32:28.159
team will continue to strive for a

0:32:26.799,0:32:30.320
better product

0:32:28.159,0:32:32.240
i don't think that they'll catch up to

0:32:30.320,0:32:33.519
us anytime soon when it comes to the

0:32:32.240,0:32:35.200
service layer i mean we pick up the

0:32:33.519,0:32:36.240
phone within 10 seconds for anything and

0:32:35.200,0:32:38.159
everything and about

0:32:36.240,0:32:40.480
90 of the time the first person to pick

0:32:38.159,0:32:42.799
up the phone is going to be the person

0:32:40.480,0:32:44.080
that resolves whatever requests or issue

0:32:42.799,0:32:45.600
we cut out a lot of that

0:32:44.080,0:32:47.440
kicking the can kind of stuff it's the

0:32:45.600,0:32:47.919
same with tickets 15 minute response

0:32:47.440,0:32:49.360
time

0:32:47.919,0:32:51.120
about 90 percent of the time first

0:32:49.360,0:32:52.399
person to touch the ticket is going to

0:32:51.120,0:32:55.679
resolve whatever it is

0:32:52.399,0:32:57.679
it's a much more holistic support uh

0:32:55.679,0:32:59.600
you know i i don't think that they're

0:32:57.679,0:33:00.480
going to aim for that they're a software

0:32:59.600,0:33:02.720
company

0:33:00.480,0:33:03.679
they're not known as a service company i

0:33:02.720,0:33:04.960
think they're going to put out more

0:33:03.679,0:33:06.720
tools

0:33:04.960,0:33:08.720
and it's going to continue to be a more

0:33:06.720,0:33:10.720
self-service experience and i think it

0:33:08.720,0:33:12.480
will continue to get better

0:33:10.720,0:33:14.320
we know that we've been winning when it

0:33:12.480,0:33:16.159
comes to the larger auto scaling where

0:33:14.320,0:33:18.320
we're elastic we don't just

0:33:16.159,0:33:20.000
add cpu and ram and resource we

0:33:18.320,0:33:20.640
automatically spin up more web nodes we

0:33:20.000,0:33:24.080
can

0:33:20.640,0:33:27.440
really really uh you know handle some

0:33:24.080,0:33:29.360
uh you know humongous use cases

0:33:27.440,0:33:30.559
um where they've been working toward

0:33:29.360,0:33:32.240
those things um

0:33:30.559,0:33:33.840
you know we've been there for a long

0:33:32.240,0:33:35.600
time and so i

0:33:33.840,0:33:37.760
i think that there are these nuances to

0:33:35.600,0:33:39.440
it and there's also folks that need

0:33:37.760,0:33:40.960
hipaa compliance or that are in a

0:33:39.440,0:33:43.279
category like cbd

0:33:40.960,0:33:45.200
or that don't fit within the confines of

0:33:43.279,0:33:47.360
what they intend to provide

0:33:45.200,0:33:49.519
as they've gone to market you know i'm

0:33:47.360,0:33:52.000
sure things may evolve but

0:33:49.519,0:33:52.960
uh they need folks like us to be able to

0:33:52.000,0:33:54.799
handle

0:33:52.960,0:33:56.159
um that other side of the market that

0:33:54.799,0:33:56.960
needs something more custom that also

0:33:56.159,0:33:59.440
includes

0:33:56.960,0:34:02.399
if you were to go to the magento

0:33:59.440,0:34:04.399
marketplace you're going to see

0:34:02.399,0:34:06.799
west i saw hundreds of extensions that

0:34:04.399,0:34:08.560
work for magento uh

0:34:06.799,0:34:09.760
magento commerce but not magento

0:34:08.560,0:34:11.119
commerce cloud at least they're not

0:34:09.760,0:34:13.040
certified as such

0:34:11.119,0:34:15.200
and we know that lots of software like

0:34:13.040,0:34:17.280
wordpress which is very common in the

0:34:15.200,0:34:19.119
magento ecosystem which has its own

0:34:17.280,0:34:19.599
security needs and its own challenges

0:34:19.119,0:34:22.079
but

0:34:19.599,0:34:22.800
software like that is not intended to

0:34:22.079,0:34:25.119
run

0:34:22.800,0:34:27.520
in commerce cloud and generally speaking

0:34:25.119,0:34:31.440
you know as far as i know can't

0:34:27.520,0:34:33.679
uh it's it's not part of the terms there

0:34:31.440,0:34:35.119
where we can spin up the right resources

0:34:33.679,0:34:38.240
and handle

0:34:35.119,0:34:40.079
those needs of organizations that have

0:34:38.240,0:34:42.000
different resources and keep it all

0:34:40.079,0:34:44.960
under one roof and in a way that

0:34:42.000,0:34:46.800
is advantageous to the user so there's a

0:34:44.960,0:34:49.359
lot of those moving parts

0:34:46.800,0:34:50.879
that are gonna point someone from one

0:34:49.359,0:34:52.800
place to another

0:34:50.879,0:34:55.119
um and the same way that we would

0:34:52.800,0:34:56.000
differentiate when we were looking at

0:34:55.119,0:34:58.960
other players

0:34:56.000,0:35:00.000
uh in the market that certainly um

0:34:58.960,0:35:01.599
strive for

0:35:00.000,0:35:03.760
a higher level service i happen to think

0:35:01.599,0:35:05.280
that our team is second to none i i work

0:35:03.760,0:35:07.359
with some amazing people

0:35:05.280,0:35:08.640
um but i know that there are users that

0:35:07.359,0:35:11.760
are perfectly happy

0:35:08.640,0:35:14.079
other places and um you know

0:35:11.760,0:35:15.520
in that sense um we know we have strong

0:35:14.079,0:35:18.240
competition in the market

0:35:15.520,0:35:18.960
and we've got our eye on the ball and i

0:35:18.240,0:35:20.800
think

0:35:18.960,0:35:22.400
for us um you know one of the things

0:35:20.800,0:35:24.400
that i really enjoy

0:35:22.400,0:35:27.040
uh like with magenta one end of life we

0:35:24.400,0:35:30.000
partnered with mage1 and openmage

0:35:27.040,0:35:32.079
and focused on folks that we're going to

0:35:30.000,0:35:34.880
provide patches and we partner

0:35:32.079,0:35:35.599
with cloudflare and sakuri and sansec

0:35:34.880,0:35:37.599
and

0:35:35.599,0:35:39.440
lots of great companies that are going

0:35:37.599,0:35:42.000
to bring value to these users whether

0:35:39.440,0:35:43.920
for security or speed or other needs

0:35:42.000,0:35:45.760
as opposed to trying to do it all under

0:35:43.920,0:35:49.359
one roof and be the best at

0:35:45.760,0:35:53.119
everything which is difficult at best

0:35:49.359,0:35:56.320
you know keeping my diplomatic hat on uh

0:35:53.119,0:35:58.240
and so that's also a differentiator for

0:35:56.320,0:36:00.079
us is that our users get to choose from

0:35:58.240,0:36:01.839
best in class and so

0:36:00.079,0:36:03.359
they might have a preference of a

0:36:01.839,0:36:06.480
certain cdn

0:36:03.359,0:36:08.240
um or a certain waf or something else in

0:36:06.480,0:36:10.079
the stack and generally speaking uh you

0:36:08.240,0:36:10.960
know our team is

0:36:10.079,0:36:13.200
going to have some strong

0:36:10.960,0:36:15.200
recommendations but will accommodate um

0:36:13.200,0:36:18.560
and will accommodate successfully

0:36:15.200,0:36:21.839
uh it's we're built for it

0:36:18.560,0:36:23.200
it is a flexible stack so there's a lot

0:36:21.839,0:36:26.480
of that happening

0:36:23.200,0:36:28.160
um in market where i i think for healthy

0:36:26.480,0:36:30.160
business reasons a lot of businesses

0:36:28.160,0:36:33.440
have gone on the opposite approach it's

0:36:30.160,0:36:34.079
how do we tamp this down as much as we

0:36:33.440,0:36:37.680
can

0:36:34.079,0:36:40.640
and make it less flexible

0:36:37.680,0:36:41.520
to keep down the support costs to keep

0:36:40.640,0:36:44.880
maintenance

0:36:41.520,0:36:45.760
very uniform to give everyone basically

0:36:44.880,0:36:48.320
the same

0:36:45.760,0:36:50.079
uh you know the same stamp of approval

0:36:48.320,0:36:51.280
on their pci compliance and other things

0:36:50.079,0:36:53.599
where

0:36:51.280,0:36:54.640
for us we know that users today that are

0:36:53.599,0:36:56.400
choosing

0:36:54.640,0:36:58.880
platforms like magento that are open

0:36:56.400,0:37:00.800
source uh

0:36:58.880,0:37:02.480
i like to say that they're snowflakes no

0:37:00.800,0:37:04.240
two are alike

0:37:02.480,0:37:05.920
they are unique they want to be unique

0:37:04.240,0:37:07.599
they want that flexibility that's where

0:37:05.920,0:37:08.560
they're choosing the platform and so we

0:37:07.599,0:37:11.680
lean in

0:37:08.560,0:37:14.560
on that heavier service layer yeah

0:37:11.680,0:37:16.000
yeah i i i'm having a hard time i've

0:37:14.560,0:37:17.520
been thinking about this the last week

0:37:16.000,0:37:19.599
or two because

0:37:17.520,0:37:21.280
i've heard several times in a row from

0:37:19.599,0:37:22.160
people about issues with cloud and i

0:37:21.280,0:37:23.520
think it's it's

0:37:22.160,0:37:25.280
it's good like you said you're trying

0:37:23.520,0:37:28.000
not to be adversarial

0:37:25.280,0:37:30.079
um but i go back and forth between part

0:37:28.000,0:37:32.560
of me wants to

0:37:30.079,0:37:34.560
raise these issues and and and scream it

0:37:32.560,0:37:35.920
from the rooftops and be like guys there

0:37:34.560,0:37:36.880
are some things you got to really pay

0:37:35.920,0:37:38.880
attention to

0:37:36.880,0:37:40.720
and the other part of me is like listen

0:37:38.880,0:37:42.640
i'm going to just

0:37:40.720,0:37:43.760
uh you know i'm going to just not talk

0:37:42.640,0:37:46.960
about it let it go

0:37:43.760,0:37:48.640
and just assume that they're not going

0:37:46.960,0:37:49.119
to do the greatest job with certain

0:37:48.640,0:37:51.920
things

0:37:49.119,0:37:53.680
because i i don't i don't want to be i'm

0:37:51.920,0:37:54.800
working on being less negative i don't

0:37:53.680,0:37:56.960
want to be

0:37:54.800,0:37:59.200
like overly negative and like

0:37:56.960,0:38:01.680
inflammatory and stuff like that

0:37:59.200,0:38:03.119
um i like that my name is still not

0:38:01.680,0:38:06.880
quite mud and that i

0:38:03.119,0:38:08.079
um i'm still welcome uh in most circles

0:38:06.880,0:38:10.480
and places and i

0:38:08.079,0:38:11.760
intend to keep it that way not because i

0:38:10.480,0:38:15.200
need to be

0:38:11.760,0:38:17.440
uh you know loved in some way but

0:38:15.200,0:38:19.359
uh because i think there's a lot more

0:38:17.440,0:38:20.160
for us all to gain as a community

0:38:19.359,0:38:23.760
especially as an

0:38:20.160,0:38:25.599
open source community by having open

0:38:23.760,0:38:27.760
dialogue and by communicating

0:38:25.599,0:38:30.079
effectively in healthy

0:38:27.760,0:38:30.880
ways that move the needle there are

0:38:30.079,0:38:32.960
people within

0:38:30.880,0:38:35.040
the magento ecosystem that work for

0:38:32.960,0:38:36.640
adobe that i have check-ins with and

0:38:35.040,0:38:37.599
that we share feedback including from

0:38:36.640,0:38:40.640
merchants

0:38:37.599,0:38:44.000
um i've had merchants tell us that the

0:38:40.640,0:38:46.000
uh the sales team at adobe will

0:38:44.000,0:38:47.599
say things and you know they call our

0:38:46.000,0:38:48.480
team right after like to verify

0:38:47.599,0:38:51.280
something and

0:38:48.480,0:38:53.200
okay you know we're we were talking

0:38:51.280,0:38:55.119
about going from magenta 1 to magento 2

0:38:53.200,0:38:56.560
and they told us that there's no more

0:38:55.119,0:38:58.560
community edition that there's only

0:38:56.560,0:38:59.839
commerce well

0:38:58.560,0:39:01.520
yeah there isn't it's not community

0:38:59.839,0:39:02.560
decision it's now called magento open

0:39:01.520,0:39:04.960
source but

0:39:02.560,0:39:06.160
you know there is an option it's they've

0:39:04.960,0:39:07.599
renamed it like

0:39:06.160,0:39:09.119
you know i could see where there'd be

0:39:07.599,0:39:10.720
some confusion of course i wasn't on

0:39:09.119,0:39:12.320
that call but you know i'm talking to

0:39:10.720,0:39:13.359
developers that have worked on magento

0:39:12.320,0:39:14.960
for years and

0:39:13.359,0:39:16.560
they were quite adamant about how this

0:39:14.960,0:39:20.880
conversation went

0:39:16.560,0:39:22.480
um we've seen things like that where

0:39:20.880,0:39:24.000
you know we want to be able to report

0:39:22.480,0:39:25.839
those things back we don't believe that

0:39:24.000,0:39:26.800
those things are happening in a holistic

0:39:25.839,0:39:28.400
manner

0:39:26.800,0:39:31.200
in some cases i think that there are

0:39:28.400,0:39:34.560
more conspiracy theories

0:39:31.200,0:39:36.640
uh and i try to avoid being

0:39:34.560,0:39:37.760
sucked in into that we saw some of that

0:39:36.640,0:39:40.000
come about uh

0:39:37.760,0:39:42.320
end of life for magento one people were

0:39:40.000,0:39:45.680
getting notified by paypal

0:39:42.320,0:39:47.440
that they had to

0:39:45.680,0:39:49.280
upgrade to magento 2 or switch to

0:39:47.440,0:39:51.040
something else because paypal wasn't

0:39:49.280,0:39:53.280
going to support them anymore

0:39:51.040,0:39:55.359
and what i heard on market were things

0:39:53.280,0:39:57.280
like well everything except braintree is

0:39:55.359,0:40:00.960
being deprecated

0:39:57.280,0:40:02.240
from the checkout in magento 2.

0:40:00.960,0:40:05.920
and there are reasons for that that are

0:40:02.240,0:40:10.240
healthy of why that that's happening

0:40:05.920,0:40:10.800
in terms of deprecation of old uh of old

0:40:10.240,0:40:13.040
payment

0:40:10.800,0:40:14.800
methods um that weren't following new

0:40:13.040,0:40:18.160
european standards and such

0:40:14.800,0:40:20.400
uh and that there was a financing

0:40:18.160,0:40:23.200
program to go from m1 to m2

0:40:20.400,0:40:24.079
uh that was in partnership with magento

0:40:23.200,0:40:25.760
and paypal

0:40:24.079,0:40:27.599
and so a lot of people you know started

0:40:25.760,0:40:28.000
to look at well you know they're doing a

0:40:27.599,0:40:30.000
lot

0:40:28.000,0:40:31.280
together you know is this a strategy to

0:40:30.000,0:40:33.839
get people to

0:40:31.280,0:40:36.640
upgrade to magento commerce and is that

0:40:33.839,0:40:38.560
really where they're pushing people

0:40:36.640,0:40:40.240
and in my head i'm just thinking i i

0:40:38.560,0:40:41.359
don't think anybody sits down in a

0:40:40.240,0:40:43.440
boardroom and

0:40:41.359,0:40:45.200
gets that between these two particular

0:40:43.440,0:40:48.079
companies and gets that deep into it

0:40:45.200,0:40:49.119
from my perspective someone over at

0:40:48.079,0:40:52.160
paypal

0:40:49.119,0:40:53.599
uh in compliance saw a notice come over

0:40:52.160,0:40:55.680
from visa

0:40:53.599,0:40:58.480
that said magenta one end of life is

0:40:55.680,0:41:01.040
coming and there's risk involved for

0:40:58.480,0:41:02.480
acquires like paypal um as they're known

0:41:01.040,0:41:04.480
in the payment industry

0:41:02.480,0:41:06.400
and so you have to do something and i

0:41:04.480,0:41:06.880
don't think you know if i had to guess

0:41:06.400,0:41:09.119
at this

0:41:06.880,0:41:11.119
nothing would have come through um the

0:41:09.119,0:41:11.839
sales side of it that this all had to do

0:41:11.119,0:41:14.560
with

0:41:11.839,0:41:15.200
uh risk and you know finance people are

0:41:14.560,0:41:18.480
very

0:41:15.200,0:41:22.000
very very attentive to risk that's

0:41:18.480,0:41:23.920
almost their entire reason for existence

0:41:22.000,0:41:26.400
if they're not doing that well we're all

0:41:23.920,0:41:28.480
in big trouble

0:41:26.400,0:41:30.000
so you know you see these things and i

0:41:28.480,0:41:32.400
try to stay on

0:41:30.000,0:41:33.760
uh on the happy path i look at it and i

0:41:32.400,0:41:36.000
try to you know i think a lot of it's

0:41:33.760,0:41:38.400
interesting to think about

0:41:36.000,0:41:40.640
but at the same time you know it's the

0:41:38.400,0:41:42.560
same with magento commerce cloud i think

0:41:40.640,0:41:45.760
that a lot of it has to do with

0:41:42.560,0:41:49.040
um adobe for

0:41:45.760,0:41:51.680
not unfounded reason

0:41:49.040,0:41:53.359
um needing to recoup investment of the

0:41:51.680,0:41:56.560
acquisition of magento

0:41:53.359,0:41:58.240
um and really seeing the hosting as part

0:41:56.560,0:42:01.599
of that and really seeing

0:41:58.240,0:42:02.000
having more of a something closer to a

0:42:01.599,0:42:04.480
sas

0:42:02.000,0:42:05.839
play where they control uh the

0:42:04.480,0:42:08.000
environment better i mean keep in mind

0:42:05.839,0:42:10.960
if someone's on magento on-prem

0:42:08.000,0:42:11.680
and they don't renew they don't pay

0:42:10.960,0:42:13.359
their bill

0:42:11.680,0:42:15.440
there aren't so many great ways for

0:42:13.359,0:42:17.280
adobe to turn off the license

0:42:15.440,0:42:18.800
they would have to you know generally

0:42:17.280,0:42:20.880
speaking as far as i know they'd still

0:42:18.800,0:42:23.280
really have to chase after the user

0:42:20.880,0:42:24.880
uh you know put them in for collections

0:42:23.280,0:42:25.680
do something along those lines you know

0:42:24.880,0:42:27.359
sue them

0:42:25.680,0:42:29.359
um when they're hosting them they can

0:42:27.359,0:42:32.000
shut them down whenever they want

0:42:29.359,0:42:32.640
they also hypothetically depending on

0:42:32.000,0:42:35.200
how

0:42:32.640,0:42:36.560
uh service terms change over time they

0:42:35.200,0:42:38.400
get access to more data

0:42:36.560,0:42:40.800
they can see trends they can see things

0:42:38.400,0:42:43.599
that they can't see when you

0:42:40.800,0:42:44.720
host your site elsewhere unless there's

0:42:43.599,0:42:47.920
some strong

0:42:44.720,0:42:49.599
cold home feature uh that's getting that

0:42:47.920,0:42:52.560
data back to adobe and so i

0:42:49.599,0:42:54.880
i can imagine based upon the features

0:42:52.560,0:42:56.720
that they've been adding to magento

0:42:54.880,0:42:58.160
post acquisition and the focus that

0:42:56.720,0:43:00.000
they've had in terms of the product

0:42:58.160,0:43:02.000
roadmap of magento

0:43:00.000,0:43:04.720
um that they appreciate some of that

0:43:02.000,0:43:07.839
knowing how adobe operates uh

0:43:04.720,0:43:10.000
you know their other product lines but

0:43:07.839,0:43:11.280
being this open source community i'll go

0:43:10.000,0:43:13.440
back to the fact that i

0:43:11.280,0:43:14.560
i think that there are things that

0:43:13.440,0:43:16.960
they'll do well

0:43:14.560,0:43:18.079
and they're things that they won't um

0:43:16.960,0:43:20.800
and

0:43:18.079,0:43:22.480
you know if nothing else uh you know

0:43:20.800,0:43:23.599
while i think that they're folks that

0:43:22.480,0:43:26.000
just they're happy

0:43:23.599,0:43:27.680
with a vendor like jet rails and they

0:43:26.000,0:43:29.359
don't want to

0:43:27.680,0:43:30.960
uh go into the unknown especially

0:43:29.359,0:43:32.000
knowing that there are lots of users

0:43:30.960,0:43:35.599
that haven't been

0:43:32.000,0:43:38.079
as happy with that direction um that

0:43:35.599,0:43:39.680
they'll follow their own happy path and

0:43:38.079,0:43:40.319
that that makes sense for their business

0:43:39.680,0:43:43.599
i mean

0:43:40.319,0:43:45.680
you know do you go and you know get a

0:43:43.599,0:43:47.520
new car mechanic or barber or someone

0:43:45.680,0:43:48.720
else in the service industry to save a

0:43:47.520,0:43:50.960
couple of bucks

0:43:48.720,0:43:52.480
not that often um if you've got someone

0:43:50.960,0:43:54.160
that you trust that you like someone

0:43:52.480,0:43:57.040
that's doing it well

0:43:54.160,0:43:57.760
you don't necessarily make that kind of

0:43:57.040,0:44:00.240
a switch

0:43:57.760,0:44:01.200
um and like you're saying that uh

0:44:00.240,0:44:03.280
there's certainly

0:44:01.200,0:44:05.359
a lot of feelings in market about where

0:44:03.280,0:44:06.960
that product is today

0:44:05.359,0:44:08.480
even though it's sort of bundled for

0:44:06.960,0:44:11.359
every commerce

0:44:08.480,0:44:12.400
uh proposal that's put out every magento

0:44:11.359,0:44:15.119
commerce

0:44:12.400,0:44:16.160
uh you know quote that's submitted to a

0:44:15.119,0:44:18.800
merchant

0:44:16.160,0:44:20.480
um just because they're offering it or

0:44:18.800,0:44:21.760
just because it's bundled in like

0:44:20.480,0:44:23.599
you know the free toaster oven that

0:44:21.760,0:44:25.599
you're getting here doesn't mean that

0:44:23.599,0:44:26.880
it's what you really need or want

0:44:25.599,0:44:28.560
there's going to be that

0:44:26.880,0:44:29.920
grouping of users that they're going to

0:44:28.560,0:44:32.560
have need for something

0:44:29.920,0:44:33.119
uh more like what jet rails provides so

0:44:32.560,0:44:34.800
right

0:44:33.119,0:44:36.240
i think that there's a lot of safety and

0:44:34.800,0:44:38.079
you know at the same time majority of

0:44:36.240,0:44:38.720
users are still on magento open source

0:44:38.079,0:44:41.359
and that

0:44:38.720,0:44:43.200
within that community leaves us uh you

0:44:41.359,0:44:44.560
know a lot of room for growth as well i

0:44:43.200,0:44:46.640
mean truth be told some of our

0:44:44.560,0:44:49.839
absolutely largest customers

0:44:46.640,0:44:51.920
are on open source and you know so size

0:44:49.839,0:44:55.599
isn't always the reason

0:44:51.920,0:44:57.520
that people go to commerce uh you know

0:44:55.599,0:44:59.200
many at that point decide that they

0:44:57.520,0:45:00.800
could build

0:44:59.200,0:45:03.119
the handful of features that they might

0:45:00.800,0:45:05.440
benefit from from commerce themselves

0:45:03.119,0:45:07.280
maintain themselves use extensions use

0:45:05.440,0:45:08.880
third-party integrations

0:45:07.280,0:45:10.480
um and in fact i mean you and i have

0:45:08.880,0:45:11.599
probably dealt with a lot of merchants

0:45:10.480,0:45:14.319
over time

0:45:11.599,0:45:16.839
that have rather than get the enterprise

0:45:14.319,0:45:19.760
license and go to commerce

0:45:16.839,0:45:20.960
um that have gone that route or

0:45:19.760,0:45:22.400
the opposite that they've gotten the

0:45:20.960,0:45:23.920
commerce license but they're still

0:45:22.400,0:45:26.000
paying third parties

0:45:23.920,0:45:26.960
for modules that compete with the

0:45:26.000,0:45:29.280
features

0:45:26.960,0:45:31.119
in magento commerce because those

0:45:29.280,0:45:32.640
third-party systems that are dedicated

0:45:31.119,0:45:34.240
to something that do nothing but that

0:45:32.640,0:45:34.800
something might be a lot stronger at

0:45:34.240,0:45:36.960
that

0:45:34.800,0:45:38.000
and might meet their use use case more

0:45:36.960,0:45:40.000
head on

0:45:38.000,0:45:41.520
um that's not to say that that there

0:45:40.000,0:45:43.119
aren't lots of folks that i've advised

0:45:41.520,0:45:44.560
through the years and continued to to go

0:45:43.119,0:45:46.640
for commerce

0:45:44.560,0:45:48.640
but i think it comes down to a

0:45:46.640,0:45:50.480
spreadsheet and being able to say look

0:45:48.640,0:45:52.079
we're going to get value out of this in

0:45:50.480,0:45:54.720
the long term over the many years of

0:45:52.079,0:45:57.839
paying licensing fees

0:45:54.720,0:45:59.359
versus sticking open source and

0:45:57.839,0:46:01.920
utilizing what's available within the

0:45:59.359,0:46:04.400
magento marketplace and ecosystem

0:46:01.920,0:46:05.599
and custom development and sometimes you

0:46:04.400,0:46:07.680
know you find that that's going to point

0:46:05.599,0:46:10.480
you in one direction or another

0:46:07.680,0:46:11.760
but it's not really a an emotional

0:46:10.480,0:46:14.079
decision

0:46:11.760,0:46:15.680
it really does come down to what your

0:46:14.079,0:46:18.319
exact needs are

0:46:15.680,0:46:19.200
yeah that gets lost on a lot of people

0:46:18.319,0:46:22.079
yeah

0:46:19.200,0:46:22.800
i'm interested in um with the open

0:46:22.079,0:46:26.000
source

0:46:22.800,0:46:27.680
uh product and the association

0:46:26.000,0:46:29.760
um i know you had the guy on from the

0:46:27.680,0:46:32.079
drupal association

0:46:29.760,0:46:33.680
um and i checked i looked at a bit of

0:46:32.079,0:46:37.520
that episode

0:46:33.680,0:46:39.040
and i'm curious like i i sort of wonder

0:46:37.520,0:46:40.560
obviously the magenta association

0:46:39.040,0:46:43.040
handles events

0:46:40.560,0:46:44.000
um and i wonder if they might go a

0:46:43.040,0:46:46.880
direction

0:46:44.000,0:46:48.400
of you know more uh having direction

0:46:46.880,0:46:52.160
over the open source

0:46:48.400,0:46:54.640
uh project and i was curious like

0:46:52.160,0:46:56.880
what um what you learned about the

0:46:54.640,0:46:58.800
drupal open source foundation

0:46:56.880,0:47:01.280
and if there's any anything that the

0:46:58.800,0:47:04.240
magento community can maybe learn

0:47:01.280,0:47:05.700
uh from the way they're doing things

0:47:04.240,0:47:06.960
that's that's an interesting one

0:47:05.700,0:47:09.599
[Music]

0:47:06.960,0:47:10.079
i'll try to tackle it concisely as much

0:47:09.599,0:47:12.960
as i know

0:47:10.079,0:47:14.160
how but so drupal's around a long time

0:47:12.960,0:47:17.200
open source

0:47:14.160,0:47:19.760
cms content management system uh

0:47:17.200,0:47:21.359
competes in the same space as a platform

0:47:19.760,0:47:23.760
like wordpress although on average it's

0:47:21.359,0:47:26.800
used by larger organizations um

0:47:23.760,0:47:28.960
universities hospitals non-profits uh

0:47:26.800,0:47:30.160
you know large organizations it has

0:47:28.960,0:47:31.599
certain things built in that actually

0:47:30.160,0:47:32.480
members of the magento community would

0:47:31.599,0:47:33.920
appreciate

0:47:32.480,0:47:36.000
as a content management system because

0:47:33.920,0:47:39.200
it has a lot of access controls

0:47:36.000,0:47:41.440
in terms of which admin users can uh get

0:47:39.200,0:47:44.559
access to which features and tasks

0:47:41.440,0:47:47.280
uh and and you know this way um

0:47:44.559,0:47:49.440
you know you can really uh handle things

0:47:47.280,0:47:50.720
in a neater nicer way when you've got

0:47:49.440,0:47:52.319
you know this bigger organization with

0:47:50.720,0:47:54.480
more people logging in and making

0:47:52.319,0:47:57.760
changes and adding content and

0:47:54.480,0:47:59.680
um they handle multi-sites better

0:47:57.760,0:48:02.079
it is a more traditional content

0:47:59.680,0:48:04.559
management system at the heart

0:48:02.079,0:48:05.200
and then while it you know certainly has

0:48:04.559,0:48:06.880
kind of like

0:48:05.200,0:48:09.359
the direction that magento has been

0:48:06.880,0:48:12.400
heading in with pwa studio

0:48:09.359,0:48:15.760
and the new newer at least graphql

0:48:12.400,0:48:18.640
uh apis and the ability to go headless

0:48:15.760,0:48:19.200
you could use um drupal as a front end

0:48:18.640,0:48:21.359
for

0:48:19.200,0:48:22.720
um as the the back-end content

0:48:21.359,0:48:23.440
management system for just about

0:48:22.720,0:48:26.400
anything

0:48:23.440,0:48:27.599
um you could also use it as a front-end

0:48:26.400,0:48:30.240
um that you could

0:48:27.599,0:48:31.760
uh you know use to more nimbly design

0:48:30.240,0:48:34.160
front-end pages and things and

0:48:31.760,0:48:35.680
have more control of that from data

0:48:34.160,0:48:37.440
that's coming from somewhere else

0:48:35.680,0:48:39.599
so there are these different use cases

0:48:37.440,0:48:40.960
but as an open source community

0:48:39.599,0:48:43.839
i think that there's a lot for the

0:48:40.960,0:48:46.400
magento community to look at there

0:48:43.839,0:48:48.400
i mean given that that drupal has no

0:48:46.400,0:48:52.480
paid enterprise version the closest

0:48:48.400,0:48:56.079
um that they've got it is acquia um

0:48:52.480,0:48:58.720
where you know you're getting um

0:48:56.079,0:49:00.160
you know certain extra facets um and so

0:48:58.720,0:49:01.119
you know anyone that spends time in that

0:49:00.160,0:49:02.880
ecosystem

0:49:01.119,0:49:04.960
is gonna you know see some of that

0:49:02.880,0:49:08.240
happening but um

0:49:04.960,0:49:10.480
but overall it's really

0:49:08.240,0:49:12.960
focused on the end users and so you have

0:49:10.480,0:49:15.040
all these you know large corporations

0:49:12.960,0:49:16.480
i liked seeing that some in healthcare

0:49:15.040,0:49:18.160
um i'd have to remember you know like

0:49:16.480,0:49:20.960
johnson and johnson and pfizer

0:49:18.160,0:49:21.839
are all submitting to the source code

0:49:20.960,0:49:24.079
and

0:49:21.839,0:49:25.760
competing companies with competing

0:49:24.079,0:49:28.480
business interests and other things

0:49:25.760,0:49:30.400
but they understand that at least from

0:49:28.480,0:49:33.839
my perspective you know just you know

0:49:30.400,0:49:35.680
this is open source that they

0:49:33.839,0:49:36.960
can do it better together they can move

0:49:35.680,0:49:38.800
the needle um

0:49:36.960,0:49:40.240
you know better by all contributing to

0:49:38.800,0:49:42.400
the source code

0:49:40.240,0:49:44.079
and they don't have to maintain it all

0:49:42.400,0:49:45.599
themselves so they can start like

0:49:44.079,0:49:46.800
version one of a feature and let the

0:49:45.599,0:49:49.200
community keep

0:49:46.800,0:49:51.359
building it out and maintaining and

0:49:49.200,0:49:54.720
there's this larger effect so

0:49:51.359,0:49:56.640
by not having that commercial uh

0:49:54.720,0:49:58.000
competition within the ecosystem i think

0:49:56.640,0:50:00.800
it makes certain things easier

0:49:58.000,0:50:01.920
the road map isn't controlled by

0:50:00.800,0:50:03.680
specifically

0:50:01.920,0:50:05.359
um you know commercial interest that's

0:50:03.680,0:50:07.040
trying to sell an enterprise license or

0:50:05.359,0:50:10.160
that that's reliant on it i mean

0:50:07.040,0:50:13.760
again i respect where adobe sits within

0:50:10.160,0:50:16.880
the magento ecosystem uh and the need

0:50:13.760,0:50:18.079
to you know a as the parent there uh to

0:50:16.880,0:50:21.680
to keep everything

0:50:18.079,0:50:25.520
um profitable yeah

0:50:21.680,0:50:28.480
how is acquia um it's not

0:50:25.520,0:50:29.440
like an analog to an enterprise version

0:50:28.480,0:50:32.640
of

0:50:29.440,0:50:34.720
drupal it's entirely separate i wouldn't

0:50:32.640,0:50:35.920
i think in some ways they've they've

0:50:34.720,0:50:38.319
created value ads

0:50:35.920,0:50:39.280
and so that includes marketing solutions

0:50:38.319,0:50:42.640
so

0:50:39.280,0:50:44.000
um there are different facets that

0:50:42.640,0:50:46.319
you're going to get from aqua

0:50:44.000,0:50:49.680
including the hosting and so there are

0:50:46.319,0:50:52.640
users that go that route

0:50:49.680,0:50:53.760
at the same time they don't control the

0:50:52.640,0:50:56.960
ecosystem

0:50:53.760,0:50:58.880
they don't you know there's a non-profit

0:50:56.960,0:51:00.160
the drupal association that plays a much

0:50:58.880,0:51:02.559
deeper role

0:51:00.160,0:51:04.240
uh it's a no you know it is a true

0:51:02.559,0:51:05.280
non-profit they were actually hurting

0:51:04.240,0:51:08.480
this year and that's when

0:51:05.280,0:51:11.119
jet rails got more involved uh you know

0:51:08.480,0:51:12.800
i had been engaged with the community on

0:51:11.119,0:51:15.839
a lighter level

0:51:12.800,0:51:18.240
earlier in the year and then

0:51:15.839,0:51:19.200
i was planning on being a drupalcon in

0:51:18.240,0:51:20.800
the midwest

0:51:19.200,0:51:24.000
which was supposed to be somewhere in

0:51:20.800,0:51:25.440
may and of course that was cancelled and

0:51:24.000,0:51:27.839
a lot of their revenue came through that

0:51:25.440,0:51:29.680
event as a non-profit

0:51:27.839,0:51:31.280
and so they were hurting and so we

0:51:29.680,0:51:33.520
stepped up to the plate during their

0:51:31.280,0:51:34.559
drupal cares uh initiative where they

0:51:33.520,0:51:37.200
were asking

0:51:34.559,0:51:37.920
members of the community to uh to donate

0:51:37.200,0:51:39.599
and sponsor and

0:51:37.920,0:51:41.280
they had a great outpouring which was

0:51:39.599,0:51:43.200
fantastic to see

0:51:41.280,0:51:45.200
and again not something that like

0:51:43.200,0:51:47.440
magento as a commercial organization

0:51:45.200,0:51:49.200
could uh could do in the same way but

0:51:47.440,0:51:51.200
this seeing people really with this

0:51:49.200,0:51:53.839
outpouring of support for

0:51:51.200,0:51:55.040
uh for a completely open source project

0:51:53.839,0:51:56.640
complete non-profit

0:51:55.040,0:51:58.319
i thought all that was really great they

0:51:56.640,0:52:01.280
have a lot of the same challenges

0:51:58.319,0:52:03.280
in continuing to architect the platform

0:52:01.280,0:52:05.920
to be easier to upgrade

0:52:03.280,0:52:07.359
uh you know we all know that magento one

0:52:05.920,0:52:10.400
to magento 2

0:52:07.359,0:52:12.800
is not easy uh and not cheap

0:52:10.400,0:52:14.720
it's a journey you know absolutely

0:52:12.800,0:52:17.040
wordpress has gone through some of this

0:52:14.720,0:52:18.160
drupal is going through it everyone is

0:52:17.040,0:52:20.240
working on

0:52:18.160,0:52:21.440
uh on opportunities to make upgrade

0:52:20.240,0:52:24.720
paths easier

0:52:21.440,0:52:27.119
um to make maintenance easier um but

0:52:24.720,0:52:28.400
also to allow for more customization and

0:52:27.119,0:52:32.319
more freedom

0:52:28.400,0:52:33.839
and i think that there's uh so i

0:52:32.319,0:52:35.440
i think that's one of my favorite

0:52:33.839,0:52:37.920
episodes of our podcast

0:52:35.440,0:52:39.200
uh bar none that um getting to chat with

0:52:37.920,0:52:42.880
the cto of

0:52:39.200,0:52:46.160
drupal um was a lot of fun and uh

0:52:42.880,0:52:48.400
i i learned a lot on camera

0:52:46.160,0:52:49.599
which i enjoy thoroughly when you know

0:52:48.400,0:52:51.119
there are episodes where

0:52:49.599,0:52:52.720
i kind of think i know how it's going to

0:52:51.119,0:52:53.680
go i came to that one knowing i had

0:52:52.720,0:52:55.760
questions that i was

0:52:53.680,0:52:57.440
hoping to hear answers to that i really

0:52:55.760,0:53:00.480
didn't know the answers to

0:52:57.440,0:53:01.520
um and i've continued to stay even more

0:53:00.480,0:53:04.880
involved uh

0:53:01.520,0:53:05.280
in that community since but um i i think

0:53:04.880,0:53:07.599
that

0:53:05.280,0:53:08.559
uh you know for anyone that it's

0:53:07.599,0:53:12.000
wondering about

0:53:08.559,0:53:14.319
the direction of magento i think that

0:53:12.000,0:53:15.839
checking out that episode about where

0:53:14.319,0:53:17.280
the drupal community sits

0:53:15.839,0:53:19.760
is a really interesting way to look at

0:53:17.280,0:53:23.680
it because i can foresee a day

0:53:19.760,0:53:26.319
when adobe might even hand over

0:53:23.680,0:53:27.920
uh you know and folks like ben marks

0:53:26.319,0:53:29.040
have talked about this in the past might

0:53:27.920,0:53:31.760
hand over

0:53:29.040,0:53:32.240
uh magento open source uh you know the

0:53:31.760,0:53:35.839
free

0:53:32.240,0:53:36.559
version to the magento association or

0:53:35.839,0:53:39.200
some other

0:53:36.559,0:53:40.640
entity you know we see in their

0:53:39.200,0:53:43.440
marketing they talk about

0:53:40.640,0:53:45.280
magento commerce more and more they they

0:53:43.440,0:53:48.400
speak about open source

0:53:45.280,0:53:50.720
uh as as a version less and less um they

0:53:48.400,0:53:52.640
are really focused on

0:53:50.720,0:53:54.559
less so on magento open source is the

0:53:52.640,0:53:56.319
feeder program in their collateral in

0:53:54.559,0:53:57.920
their marketing material

0:53:56.319,0:53:59.920
and that's not to say that they don't

0:53:57.920,0:54:02.960
enjoy it as a feeder program and they

0:53:59.920,0:54:05.760
don't enjoy the community effect of

0:54:02.960,0:54:07.520
open source contribution through their

0:54:05.760,0:54:09.920
community engineering program

0:54:07.520,0:54:11.040
and and the strength of getting

0:54:09.920,0:54:12.559
integrations and

0:54:11.040,0:54:14.400
extensions and things that happen

0:54:12.559,0:54:17.119
because of the wealth of open source

0:54:14.400,0:54:18.400
users not just uh the minority of

0:54:17.119,0:54:21.440
commerce users

0:54:18.400,0:54:23.040
and you know it's one of those old boats

0:54:21.440,0:54:24.880
float scenarios

0:54:23.040,0:54:26.480
where they're benefiting from that that

0:54:24.880,0:54:28.880
ecosystem

0:54:26.480,0:54:29.760
but i you know i've been in tech long

0:54:28.880,0:54:32.400
enough to know that

0:54:29.760,0:54:34.240
i can't see a few years out and so while

0:54:32.400,0:54:36.880
i feel confident that magento

0:54:34.240,0:54:38.880
open source will continue to go strong i

0:54:36.880,0:54:39.280
can't swear who the steward of it would

0:54:38.880,0:54:42.640
be

0:54:39.280,0:54:43.920
a few years out yeah i mean i don't know

0:54:42.640,0:54:46.160
i don't know too much about

0:54:43.920,0:54:47.920
um how the drupal association works and

0:54:46.160,0:54:48.559
i gotta i gotta dig into that episode

0:54:47.920,0:54:50.480
and

0:54:48.559,0:54:52.559
get into some more detail there but it

0:54:50.480,0:54:54.720
seems like

0:54:52.559,0:54:56.960
it makes sense for the open source

0:54:54.720,0:54:59.040
project to be owned

0:54:56.960,0:55:01.119
by that association and i just don't

0:54:59.040,0:55:02.319
know if that's the direction it's gonna

0:55:01.119,0:55:05.359
go or not

0:55:02.319,0:55:08.720
um you know it's an undertaking

0:55:05.359,0:55:10.079
and i think um as the magento

0:55:08.720,0:55:11.760
association which is a great

0:55:10.079,0:55:14.640
organization and if you know

0:55:11.760,0:55:16.799
if anyone's involved you know as a user

0:55:14.640,0:55:20.000
or within the magento ecosystem and

0:55:16.799,0:55:22.400
isn't a member i highly recommend it

0:55:20.000,0:55:23.839
uh they've been standing up different

0:55:22.400,0:55:26.079
partnerships and getting

0:55:23.839,0:55:26.960
um you know sponsors in essence um and

0:55:26.079,0:55:28.960
so there's

0:55:26.960,0:55:30.559
some dollars flowing and because in

0:55:28.960,0:55:31.920
order to have full-time resources

0:55:30.559,0:55:33.520
because there's a non-profit board for

0:55:31.920,0:55:34.960
the magento association

0:55:33.520,0:55:38.160
and those are some amazing folks from

0:55:34.960,0:55:39.760
across the uh the magento ecosystem and

0:55:38.160,0:55:41.440
they've got full-time jobs they run

0:55:39.760,0:55:44.559
agencies they

0:55:41.440,0:55:45.760
um are involved uh you know on behalf of

0:55:44.559,0:55:48.240
corporations with

0:55:45.760,0:55:50.559
maintaining these sites they've

0:55:48.240,0:55:52.079
committed an amount of time

0:55:50.559,0:55:54.319
you know to being on this non-profit

0:55:52.079,0:55:55.200
board but in order to have enough

0:55:54.319,0:55:58.079
resource

0:55:55.200,0:55:59.839
to really move the needle to be able to

0:55:58.079,0:56:02.240
effectively

0:55:59.839,0:56:03.920
manage an operation like that they need

0:56:02.240,0:56:05.680
a certain operating budget

0:56:03.920,0:56:07.119
and i i think that they're on their way

0:56:05.680,0:56:10.240
to it i haven't gotten

0:56:07.119,0:56:13.599
any you know ultra recent updates

0:56:10.240,0:56:16.880
on trajectories there um

0:56:13.599,0:56:18.319
but like most non-profits you know with

0:56:16.880,0:56:19.680
the right resources they can do a lot

0:56:18.319,0:56:22.400
more for the community and

0:56:19.680,0:56:23.760
again i i don't know that their goal is

0:56:22.400,0:56:26.160
to be the stewards of

0:56:23.760,0:56:27.599
magento open source but i think that

0:56:26.160,0:56:29.040
there are some folks that wouldn't mind

0:56:27.599,0:56:31.119
seeing it happen

0:56:29.040,0:56:32.480
when the time is right if if that comes

0:56:31.119,0:56:35.920
to fruition

0:56:32.480,0:56:37.520
yeah yeah um you know i actually just

0:56:35.920,0:56:39.520
had danny vercadion

0:56:37.520,0:56:40.640
uh yesterday and he's on the on the

0:56:39.520,0:56:42.640
board and

0:56:40.640,0:56:44.079
um so it was good he was mentioning

0:56:42.640,0:56:45.680
couldn't get into too much detail but

0:56:44.079,0:56:47.440
that there might be some

0:56:45.680,0:56:49.359
some interesting updates coming around

0:56:47.440,0:56:53.119
the pike um

0:56:49.359,0:56:55.040
so that'll be interesting to see um

0:56:53.119,0:56:56.240
but yeah it'll be interesting to follow

0:56:55.040,0:56:59.520
the way that um

0:56:56.240,0:57:03.119
the way that evolves um

0:56:59.520,0:57:05.440
what um how are you feeling about

0:57:03.119,0:57:06.319
the magento community kind of just in

0:57:05.440,0:57:08.240
general

0:57:06.319,0:57:09.839
a lot of um a lot of people in the

0:57:08.240,0:57:11.839
community are branching out to other

0:57:09.839,0:57:13.520
platforms other e-commerce platforms you

0:57:11.839,0:57:16.160
mentioned big commerce

0:57:13.520,0:57:17.200
um i've seen a lot of them you know in

0:57:16.160,0:57:20.480
some of those

0:57:17.200,0:57:21.680
places it's tech so everyone's following

0:57:20.480,0:57:25.680
the trend lines

0:57:21.680,0:57:27.359
um i think that some have been

0:57:25.680,0:57:28.720
on any side of the fence have been

0:57:27.359,0:57:30.640
turned off by a

0:57:28.720,0:57:32.960
platform a partnership model of a

0:57:30.640,0:57:34.160
platform some some of these partnerships

0:57:32.960,0:57:36.240
are pay to play

0:57:34.160,0:57:37.680
sometimes you don't get the resources

0:57:36.240,0:57:40.319
that you're expecting out of it

0:57:37.680,0:57:42.079
sometimes the the you know the way that

0:57:40.319,0:57:42.480
things shake out doesn't quite work out

0:57:42.079,0:57:44.960
but

0:57:42.480,0:57:46.160
mostly it's servicing the customer what

0:57:44.960,0:57:48.160
does the customer want what does the

0:57:46.160,0:57:51.280
customer need

0:57:48.160,0:57:53.440
magento from my perspective historically

0:57:51.280,0:57:54.400
hasn't had the strongest marketing arm

0:57:53.440,0:57:57.520
they didn't need to

0:57:54.400,0:57:58.880
they got to the market early they uh i

0:57:57.520,0:58:00.160
thought that their marketing was always

0:57:58.880,0:58:02.559
pretty strong

0:58:00.160,0:58:03.440
really you know i i would have pegged

0:58:02.559,0:58:06.240
shopify

0:58:03.440,0:58:06.720
in recent years of well but the events

0:58:06.240,0:58:08.799
were

0:58:06.720,0:58:09.839
targeting people mainly that we're

0:58:08.799,0:58:12.559
already

0:58:09.839,0:58:13.839
using the platform or engaged with it

0:58:12.559,0:58:18.400
and

0:58:13.839,0:58:18.400
so i you know to me i think that they've

0:58:19.280,0:58:23.839
yeah what's up

0:58:28.240,0:58:32.480
mommy's not here mommy's in the other

0:58:30.480,0:58:33.680
room

0:58:32.480,0:58:36.160
work from home what are you gonna do

0:58:33.680,0:58:39.200
right absolutely all of us

0:58:36.160,0:58:42.319
uh but you know so to

0:58:39.200,0:58:45.680
circle back on on that one i i think

0:58:42.319,0:58:46.960
that magento really relied on their open

0:58:45.680,0:58:49.520
source community

0:58:46.960,0:58:50.079
um on being an industry leader because

0:58:49.520,0:58:53.040
they got

0:58:50.079,0:58:54.160
they got to market earlier and built up

0:58:53.040,0:58:56.880
more of a following

0:58:54.160,0:58:58.000
earlier uh and so they got to sort of

0:58:56.880,0:59:01.119
enjoy the fruits of

0:58:58.000,0:59:03.359
of that and you know if you went to an

0:59:01.119,0:59:05.359
agency and you wanted to build an

0:59:03.359,0:59:06.160
e-commerce site of some size and

0:59:05.359,0:59:08.960
standing

0:59:06.160,0:59:10.559
they said oh but we'll use magento and

0:59:08.960,0:59:12.400
there was that time in the market where

0:59:10.559,0:59:15.520
the agencies really played

0:59:12.400,0:59:18.400
uh it started to really play that role

0:59:15.520,0:59:20.640
and magento benefited from it and if you

0:59:18.400,0:59:22.960
were building a tech integration

0:59:20.640,0:59:24.319
um you know you know you were building a

0:59:22.960,0:59:25.920
sas company and you wanted to figure out

0:59:24.319,0:59:27.119
which e-commerce platform to integrate

0:59:25.920,0:59:31.119
with first

0:59:27.119,0:59:33.280
you went to magento it was the lion

0:59:31.119,0:59:35.280
out of the pack right you know it had

0:59:33.280,0:59:38.000
that leadership role

0:59:35.280,0:59:39.359
and not to say that magento rested on

0:59:38.000,0:59:41.839
those laurels but

0:59:39.359,0:59:42.480
i think that there was a lot of at least

0:59:41.839,0:59:46.319
yeah i

0:59:42.480,0:59:50.079
i may be slightly off track here but

0:59:46.319,0:59:53.200
i always saw it as needing to do less

0:59:50.079,0:59:55.599
uh be in

0:59:53.200,0:59:56.880
maybe to direct to merchant marketing

0:59:55.599,0:59:59.040
and relying more

0:59:56.880,1:00:00.960
on the partner network on the ecosystem

0:59:59.040,1:00:04.720
and community to feed

1:00:00.960,1:00:07.599
uh the overall uh demand

1:00:04.720,1:00:08.960
for the platform where shopify went

1:00:07.599,1:00:12.160
right to merchants

1:00:08.960,1:00:14.559
and you know hit it hard and really

1:00:12.160,1:00:15.680
became a name that a lot of users just

1:00:14.559,1:00:18.160
couldn't help but go

1:00:15.680,1:00:19.440
check it out and it wasn't necessarily

1:00:18.160,1:00:21.280
better for them

1:00:19.440,1:00:22.880
um there are users that absolutely it

1:00:21.280,1:00:25.680
was uh and i could

1:00:22.880,1:00:27.440
you know prognosticate a about why

1:00:25.680,1:00:30.000
better for one and not another

1:00:27.440,1:00:31.359
but and the same would apply to pretty

1:00:30.000,1:00:32.960
much every other platform everything's

1:00:31.359,1:00:33.680
got strengths and weaknesses pros and

1:00:32.960,1:00:37.200
cons

1:00:33.680,1:00:39.040
um there's always some gray area but i i

1:00:37.200,1:00:40.640
think that some of these younger

1:00:39.040,1:00:43.119
platforms are at least younger in terms

1:00:40.640,1:00:45.839
of building market share

1:00:43.119,1:00:46.720
did a better job of marketing directly

1:00:45.839,1:00:50.480
to merchants

1:00:46.720,1:00:52.720
and you know trying to pull them in

1:00:50.480,1:00:54.240
where a lot of folks got to magento open

1:00:52.720,1:00:56.160
source which was free how much could

1:00:54.240,1:00:58.000
magento spend to bring them to open

1:00:56.160,1:00:59.599
source

1:00:58.000,1:01:01.599
that was happening through the community

1:00:59.599,1:01:04.160
and that's a very different

1:01:01.599,1:01:06.160
methodology and model as a business or

1:01:04.160,1:01:09.599
organization

1:01:06.160,1:01:12.000
so we've seen how some of that has

1:01:09.599,1:01:13.680
in essence had an impact and now that

1:01:12.000,1:01:15.440
some of these platforms really do have a

1:01:13.680,1:01:17.359
lot of market share especially in smb i

1:01:15.440,1:01:20.720
mean that's the major change here

1:01:17.359,1:01:23.040
uh is that shopify got the smb market

1:01:20.720,1:01:24.480
uh magento has continued to work farther

1:01:23.040,1:01:26.160
up market

1:01:24.480,1:01:28.000
and focus more and more heavily on

1:01:26.160,1:01:30.240
mid-market and enterprise

1:01:28.000,1:01:31.920
uh you know and other players have been

1:01:30.240,1:01:33.760
um you know again you know figuring out

1:01:31.920,1:01:35.119
what their core focuses are and it's

1:01:33.760,1:01:37.920
okay it's doing

1:01:35.119,1:01:40.079
quite a good job at it but if shopify

1:01:37.920,1:01:43.599
had been around in the way that it is

1:01:40.079,1:01:44.079
today 10 years ago there would have been

1:01:43.599,1:01:46.880
more

1:01:44.079,1:01:48.640
people choosing shopify for those smb

1:01:46.880,1:01:49.920
builds because we see

1:01:48.640,1:01:51.599
you know some of those folks that are

1:01:49.920,1:01:53.839
still on magento one it's because they

1:01:51.599,1:01:57.680
invested heavily into a platform

1:01:53.839,1:01:58.559
um they uh you know they haven't gone to

1:01:57.680,1:02:00.480
magento too

1:01:58.559,1:02:02.640
because the costs of maintenance and

1:02:00.480,1:02:05.599
what have you you know the migration are

1:02:02.640,1:02:07.200
too high um that they you know if you're

1:02:05.599,1:02:09.039
selling

1:02:07.200,1:02:10.880
thousands tens of thousands of dollars

1:02:09.039,1:02:12.480
of goods a year maybe hundreds of

1:02:10.880,1:02:15.280
thousands but you know not the

1:02:12.480,1:02:16.559
best margins which most retailers have

1:02:15.280,1:02:18.160
limited margins

1:02:16.559,1:02:20.160
uh it doesn't always leave you a lot of

1:02:18.160,1:02:23.680
room for the tech stack

1:02:20.160,1:02:26.799
and s and sas can really deliver on that

1:02:23.680,1:02:28.400
smb market where open source can really

1:02:26.799,1:02:30.480
have a really good total cost of

1:02:28.400,1:02:32.799
ownership and the flexibility

1:02:30.480,1:02:34.000
that merchants are looking for as they

1:02:32.799,1:02:35.599
get up there

1:02:34.000,1:02:37.599
you know into the millions in revenue

1:02:35.599,1:02:38.799
and there's a much bigger much stronger

1:02:37.599,1:02:42.240
use case

1:02:38.799,1:02:43.920
um and so there's been a lot of that

1:02:42.240,1:02:46.240
happening and i i think that there's a

1:02:43.920,1:02:47.760
use case you know depending on the

1:02:46.240,1:02:48.640
flexibility that you need the features

1:02:47.760,1:02:50.480
that you need

1:02:48.640,1:02:51.680
the expectations that you have also

1:02:50.480,1:02:52.720
things that come down to things like

1:02:51.680,1:02:56.000
data privacy

1:02:52.720,1:02:56.480
security when you go with sas uh there

1:02:56.000,1:02:59.599
was

1:02:56.480,1:03:01.359
recently in the news there was a um

1:02:59.599,1:03:03.200
there were shopify employees that were

1:03:01.359,1:03:04.480
arrested by the fbi because they were

1:03:03.200,1:03:07.359
stealing data

1:03:04.480,1:03:08.079
and selling it now that's not to say

1:03:07.359,1:03:09.680
that you know

1:03:08.079,1:03:11.119
that magento merchants don't have

1:03:09.680,1:03:12.880
vendors that couldn't also do

1:03:11.119,1:03:14.480
awful things and i'm actually i was very

1:03:12.880,1:03:16.400
glad to see that

1:03:14.480,1:03:18.400
shopify made the authorities aware and

1:03:16.400,1:03:19.680
did everything as it appeared at least

1:03:18.400,1:03:20.960
in the news by the book and that's

1:03:19.680,1:03:23.280
fantastic

1:03:20.960,1:03:24.400
um but the average shopify site that i

1:03:23.280,1:03:26.400
see uses

1:03:24.400,1:03:28.559
a tremendous number of apps that get

1:03:26.400,1:03:31.359
access to a tremendous amount of

1:03:28.559,1:03:32.240
of proprietary data customer data order

1:03:31.359,1:03:33.920
data

1:03:32.240,1:03:35.440
and who's writing those apps who's

1:03:33.920,1:03:36.799
maintaining them where are they hosted

1:03:35.440,1:03:39.599
are they secure

1:03:36.799,1:03:40.000
um even are they scalable you know will

1:03:39.599,1:03:42.079
they

1:03:40.000,1:03:43.440
hit a breaking point on black friday who

1:03:42.079,1:03:45.440
knows

1:03:43.440,1:03:47.359
i still think that for a lot of these

1:03:45.440,1:03:48.240
larger merchants there's something to be

1:03:47.359,1:03:51.200
said

1:03:48.240,1:03:52.319
um for owning the stack owning your data

1:03:51.200,1:03:55.599
having more control

1:03:52.319,1:03:56.960
having more flexibility being able to

1:03:55.599,1:03:59.280
edit and configure in a way that you

1:03:56.960,1:04:00.640
want i mean it's now been a while but

1:03:59.280,1:04:04.160
you know we've seen

1:04:00.640,1:04:06.000
uh folks in the shopify uh space

1:04:04.160,1:04:07.760
like mailchimp have a falling out and

1:04:06.000,1:04:10.880
all of a sudden these users

1:04:07.760,1:04:12.960
have no choice but to uh you know

1:04:10.880,1:04:14.559
change their email marketing platform

1:04:12.960,1:04:16.720
that there is no

1:04:14.559,1:04:17.599
open source you know module to be had

1:04:16.720,1:04:21.039
it's

1:04:17.599,1:04:23.920
it's access to shopify's api they own it

1:04:21.039,1:04:25.520
um it's it's theirs um the same with

1:04:23.920,1:04:26.319
shopify rolling out different features

1:04:25.520,1:04:30.160
that compete

1:04:26.319,1:04:30.160
with their ecosystem and that compete

1:04:30.960,1:04:34.400
you know with sometimes with merchants

1:04:32.480,1:04:37.359
interest in some cases

1:04:34.400,1:04:38.640
uh you know charging folks for merchant

1:04:37.359,1:04:41.119
services either

1:04:38.640,1:04:42.720
for using merchant services or a penalty

1:04:41.119,1:04:44.319
if you want to use your own

1:04:42.720,1:04:46.319
um they have a business model i mean

1:04:44.319,1:04:47.440
that's how they they stay profitable and

1:04:46.319,1:04:48.880
they're folks that could

1:04:47.440,1:04:50.799
you know say why they think that that's

1:04:48.880,1:04:53.520
that's good um you know

1:04:50.799,1:04:54.000
i can see use cases across the board but

1:04:53.520,1:04:56.079
i i

1:04:54.000,1:04:57.599
think that when we look at these sorts

1:04:56.079,1:05:00.079
of things that

1:04:57.599,1:05:00.799
you know it's important to take a

1:05:00.079,1:05:02.720
holistic

1:05:00.799,1:05:04.880
look you know if you're buying a house

1:05:02.720,1:05:08.400
you don't buy a house to be in it

1:05:04.880,1:05:10.799
for six months closing costs movers

1:05:08.400,1:05:11.920
um also i mean by the time that you're

1:05:10.799,1:05:14.400
done it's

1:05:11.920,1:05:15.760
uh a house is never done right you know

1:05:14.400,1:05:16.240
and i think the same of an e-commerce

1:05:15.760,1:05:18.319
site

1:05:16.240,1:05:20.160
it's not fun to migrate um it's

1:05:18.319,1:05:21.920
time-consuming it's expensive data

1:05:20.160,1:05:22.880
doesn't always port over as well as you

1:05:21.920,1:05:24.079
want

1:05:22.880,1:05:26.240
features and things that impact

1:05:24.079,1:05:29.119
customers that customers don't

1:05:26.240,1:05:30.160
don't want to be guinea pigs they'd like

1:05:29.119,1:05:32.880
things to be

1:05:30.160,1:05:34.240
stable and reliable that a lot of these

1:05:32.880,1:05:35.680
things come into play so it's just

1:05:34.240,1:05:37.039
figuring out what's right for the

1:05:35.680,1:05:38.799
longevity of the business

1:05:37.039,1:05:40.960
what is that business going to be want

1:05:38.799,1:05:43.599
to be doing in two years or maybe even

1:05:40.960,1:05:43.599
three or four

1:05:43.760,1:05:47.200
and i think that the marketing rarely

1:05:45.839,1:05:49.920
focuses as much

1:05:47.200,1:05:52.000
on that from any of these platforms it's

1:05:49.920,1:05:54.079
more about look at these cool features

1:05:52.000,1:05:57.039
look at this total cost of ownership of

1:05:54.079,1:05:58.160
of you know a month as opposed to years

1:05:57.039,1:06:01.839
um

1:05:58.160,1:06:02.880
you know they don't really focus on

1:06:01.839,1:06:06.480
security and

1:06:02.880,1:06:07.839
data privacy and um and scalability and

1:06:06.480,1:06:09.200
some of these other things in quite the

1:06:07.839,1:06:12.079
same way

1:06:09.200,1:06:12.799
in a lot of the marketing yeah i i hear

1:06:12.079,1:06:14.559
you on that

1:06:12.799,1:06:16.799
um it's it's been interesting as i've

1:06:14.559,1:06:19.359
been starting to kind of follow

1:06:16.799,1:06:21.200
the shopify space a little bit more than

1:06:19.359,1:06:23.520
i had in the past in the past i was just

1:06:21.200,1:06:24.960
magento only for years

1:06:23.520,1:06:26.400
and i didn't want to hear anything about

1:06:24.960,1:06:27.599
other platforms i didn't want to think

1:06:26.400,1:06:28.240
about them didn't want to know about

1:06:27.599,1:06:30.480
them

1:06:28.240,1:06:32.079
and i've been starting to kind of follow

1:06:30.480,1:06:34.319
the shopify space a little bit

1:06:32.079,1:06:36.000
there's a lot of people moving up market

1:06:34.319,1:06:38.000
with shopify plus

1:06:36.000,1:06:39.920
there's a lot of cool stuff there but

1:06:38.000,1:06:41.599
it's interesting to see a lot of the

1:06:39.920,1:06:44.799
dynamics play themself

1:06:41.599,1:06:46.480
out in that ecosystem that i saw

1:06:44.799,1:06:48.240
in the magento ecosystem even though

1:06:46.480,1:06:50.240
it's a completely different model it's

1:06:48.240,1:06:53.599
sas versus open source

1:06:50.240,1:06:57.920
but for example uh extensions between

1:06:53.599,1:06:57.920
conflicts between apps or extensions

1:06:59.520,1:07:04.000
if not necessarily like it's not like

1:07:01.359,1:07:05.839
you're dealing with code level conflicts

1:07:04.000,1:07:07.440
but you're dealing with how are they

1:07:05.839,1:07:09.280
playing with each other

1:07:07.440,1:07:10.640
or like you said how is this one

1:07:09.280,1:07:13.039
particular app

1:07:10.640,1:07:14.880
going to scale where in magento you had

1:07:13.039,1:07:16.559
the same problem but you're dealing with

1:07:14.880,1:07:18.720
code level issues right so

1:07:16.559,1:07:21.200
is this extension written well is it

1:07:18.720,1:07:24.319
writing performant database queries

1:07:21.200,1:07:27.599
um whereas in a in a sas

1:07:24.319,1:07:29.520
app um mode

1:07:27.599,1:07:31.599
yeah yeah yeah you don't have as much

1:07:29.520,1:07:32.559
control and then you but it's funny

1:07:31.599,1:07:34.960
because

1:07:32.559,1:07:36.480
it's like the same issues in in

1:07:34.960,1:07:38.000
different ways

1:07:36.480,1:07:39.760
uh playing themselves out it's

1:07:38.000,1:07:41.280
interesting to kind of follow

1:07:39.760,1:07:43.520
when you're dealing with magento

1:07:41.280,1:07:45.119
extensions conflicting

1:07:43.520,1:07:47.280
you've got a good shot that you'll be

1:07:45.119,1:07:48.640
able to code your way out of that

1:07:47.280,1:07:49.839
whether it's the extension developers

1:07:48.640,1:07:50.720
that do it for you or your own

1:07:49.839,1:07:53.920
developers

1:07:50.720,1:07:55.920
you'll get there when it comes to sas

1:07:53.920,1:07:56.880
apps and this isn't specific a lot of

1:07:55.920,1:07:58.319
the things i've mentioned aren't

1:07:56.880,1:08:01.200
specific to shopify

1:07:58.319,1:08:02.480
sorry my friends at shopify for picking

1:08:01.200,1:08:05.839
on you a little there but

1:08:02.480,1:08:07.520
um but in general you know

1:08:05.839,1:08:09.359
i was involved in helping to build

1:08:07.520,1:08:10.000
shopify plus sites before it was

1:08:09.359,1:08:13.039
particularly

1:08:10.000,1:08:16.480
popular again perfectly good

1:08:13.039,1:08:18.719
platform for certain use cases

1:08:16.480,1:08:20.159
but when those apps don't work together

1:08:18.719,1:08:20.640
you're pretty much up a creek without a

1:08:20.159,1:08:22.400
paddle

1:08:20.640,1:08:24.719
because at that point you're usually

1:08:22.400,1:08:25.440
going to wind up trying to custom build

1:08:24.719,1:08:27.120
an app

1:08:25.440,1:08:29.440
and by the time that you're done custom

1:08:27.120,1:08:30.880
building and maintaining that app

1:08:29.440,1:08:32.880
you've pretty much written a bunch of

1:08:30.880,1:08:34.960
your own custom software why didn't you

1:08:32.880,1:08:37.520
just go open source

1:08:34.960,1:08:39.199
and i think that comes into play so

1:08:37.520,1:08:40.960
there are those use cases where someone

1:08:39.199,1:08:41.679
has a very straightforward retail

1:08:40.960,1:08:44.239
business

1:08:41.679,1:08:46.239
um they're doing an amount of revenue

1:08:44.239,1:08:46.640
and and have needs they're commensurate

1:08:46.239,1:08:48.400
with

1:08:46.640,1:08:50.319
this with what the sas platform is going

1:08:48.400,1:08:53.120
to deliver splendidly on

1:08:50.319,1:08:53.839
that's fantastic uh and i advise people

1:08:53.120,1:08:55.600
to go to

1:08:53.839,1:08:56.960
platforms like big commerce and in those

1:08:55.600,1:08:58.960
situations and

1:08:56.960,1:09:00.560
to work with these different range of

1:08:58.960,1:09:01.759
platforms and they have different

1:09:00.560,1:09:02.960
strengths and weaknesses you know

1:09:01.759,1:09:05.359
shopify their

1:09:02.960,1:09:07.120
their front-end theming uh you know

1:09:05.359,1:09:08.080
especially for like do-it-yourselfers

1:09:07.120,1:09:11.520
that sort of thing

1:09:08.080,1:09:13.040
is fantastic um you know for folks that

1:09:11.520,1:09:15.040
don't have developers and that again

1:09:13.040,1:09:17.440
just needs something that's gonna

1:09:15.040,1:09:19.359
do the job that you can launch a shopify

1:09:17.440,1:09:22.719
site pretty fast

1:09:19.359,1:09:25.839
on you know as a non-developer and be

1:09:22.719,1:09:26.880
you know reasonably satisfied uh at the

1:09:25.839,1:09:28.159
same time if you

1:09:26.880,1:09:29.359
if you're a more advanced user you're

1:09:28.159,1:09:30.560
gonna use a lot of apps you're gonna run

1:09:29.359,1:09:33.040
into conflicts

1:09:30.560,1:09:34.000
uh you may run into issues related to

1:09:33.040,1:09:36.000
the api because

1:09:34.000,1:09:37.679
that is throttled you know it's not your

1:09:36.000,1:09:41.359
site it's not your hosting

1:09:37.679,1:09:44.719
it's theirs and so there are

1:09:41.359,1:09:46.239
challenges that you can easily run into

1:09:44.719,1:09:47.679
they have been opening up more and i

1:09:46.239,1:09:48.719
think that's an interesting thing

1:09:47.679,1:09:50.560
happening in sas

1:09:48.719,1:09:52.319
that i heard the big commerce team

1:09:50.560,1:09:53.520
talking for a long time about open sass

1:09:52.319,1:09:55.280
and being able to

1:09:53.520,1:09:57.280
matter yeah yeah i've been thinking

1:09:55.280,1:09:59.920
about that a lot of api

1:09:57.280,1:10:01.760
uh connectivity to go headless or to do

1:09:59.920,1:10:05.840
these other things to give more freedom

1:10:01.760,1:10:08.320
because for years you know folks like um

1:10:05.840,1:10:10.159
shipper hq you know wanted to be able to

1:10:08.320,1:10:10.960
do things with shopify's checkout in

1:10:10.159,1:10:13.280
terms of

1:10:10.960,1:10:14.080
you know offering different shipping

1:10:13.280,1:10:15.920
options

1:10:14.080,1:10:17.280
and they were locked out of it um

1:10:15.920,1:10:19.040
because it it was sas

1:10:17.280,1:10:20.320
and the checkout was locked down which

1:10:19.040,1:10:21.920
you know may have some security and

1:10:20.320,1:10:23.440
other benefits but didn't allow for the

1:10:21.920,1:10:26.800
customization that some

1:10:23.440,1:10:29.120
businesses absolutely needed um

1:10:26.800,1:10:30.159
i'd argue that many businesses should

1:10:29.120,1:10:34.880
have

1:10:30.159,1:10:36.560
and so there's you know

1:10:34.880,1:10:38.400
i think the the biggest challenge for a

1:10:36.560,1:10:40.320
merchant is

1:10:38.400,1:10:41.760
talking to the right people before they

1:10:40.320,1:10:44.400
make a decision

1:10:41.760,1:10:45.600
that if you only talk to the sales team

1:10:44.400,1:10:48.239
at magento or

1:10:45.600,1:10:49.440
at shopify obviously they're going to

1:10:48.239,1:10:50.960
tell you why

1:10:49.440,1:10:53.040
they've got the best thing since sliced

1:10:50.960,1:10:55.199
bread

1:10:53.040,1:10:56.400
if you go to an agency that works on one

1:10:55.199,1:10:58.000
thing

1:10:56.400,1:10:59.760
and really doesn't have that additional

1:10:58.000,1:11:01.679
experience i think it's a challenge

1:10:59.760,1:11:03.600
um because it's it's hard to give that

1:11:01.679,1:11:05.920
feedback and in some cases

1:11:03.600,1:11:07.840
i uh last i knew in shopify's

1:11:05.920,1:11:09.440
partnership terms and conditions to be a

1:11:07.840,1:11:11.040
shopify partner

1:11:09.440,1:11:12.640
they suggested that you couldn't

1:11:11.040,1:11:14.239
recommend any other platform to a

1:11:12.640,1:11:17.360
shopify user

1:11:14.239,1:11:19.120
uh to which see this is this is like

1:11:17.360,1:11:20.960
like this is what i mean about these

1:11:19.120,1:11:22.239
like dynamics and the ecosystem and the

1:11:20.960,1:11:24.080
partner program

1:11:22.239,1:11:26.320
like people criticize magento of that

1:11:24.080,1:11:29.120
kind of thing in the past like all these

1:11:26.320,1:11:30.320
funny backs door deals with partners and

1:11:29.120,1:11:33.280
stuff like that

1:11:30.320,1:11:35.679
i i'm told by magento partners on a

1:11:33.280,1:11:38.960
regular basis by these agencies that

1:11:35.679,1:11:41.199
if they don't um recommend magento

1:11:38.960,1:11:42.640
commerce cloud magento's host exactly

1:11:41.199,1:11:44.480
that they're not going to see any leads

1:11:42.640,1:11:47.440
moving forward they're not going to be

1:11:44.480,1:11:49.600
you know they're going to lose uh

1:11:47.440,1:11:50.400
benefit there from the relationship and

1:11:49.600,1:11:52.640
so

1:11:50.400,1:11:55.120
um there are hot button topics now you

1:11:52.640,1:11:58.080
know who's enforcing certain things

1:11:55.120,1:11:59.040
is it holistic across the board is it

1:11:58.080,1:12:01.440
you know i mean i

1:11:59.040,1:12:03.360
again i i want to go back to my earlier

1:12:01.440,1:12:05.440
statement about not being

1:12:03.360,1:12:07.040
a conspiracy theorist i'll believe what

1:12:05.440,1:12:08.719
multiple people are telling me is very

1:12:07.040,1:12:10.400
directly happening and that

1:12:08.719,1:12:12.159
it's being directly reported by other

1:12:10.400,1:12:15.120
members of the community

1:12:12.159,1:12:16.400
and it's not really disputed but at the

1:12:15.120,1:12:20.239
same time i

1:12:16.400,1:12:22.560
i think that these partner programs

1:12:20.239,1:12:23.840
they have a major impact and so going

1:12:22.560,1:12:26.880
back to magento

1:12:23.840,1:12:29.840
the magento ecosystem i believe

1:12:26.880,1:12:30.800
is what fueled magento's growth it

1:12:29.840,1:12:33.920
wasn't

1:12:30.800,1:12:36.159
magento's marketing um well yes they had

1:12:33.920,1:12:38.320
booths at trade shows and yes um they

1:12:36.159,1:12:40.159
hosted events and yes they did things

1:12:38.320,1:12:42.080
it wasn't that they had a huge sales

1:12:40.159,1:12:43.679
team that was hitting the ground

1:12:42.080,1:12:45.440
um you know reaching out to every

1:12:43.679,1:12:48.400
merchant trying to get them onto

1:12:45.440,1:12:49.360
the platform as a starter or uh you know

1:12:48.400,1:12:53.520
that they were

1:12:49.360,1:12:57.120
you know terribly engaged in the market

1:12:53.520,1:13:00.000
um to get every single user

1:12:57.120,1:13:01.040
uh at least not not consistently through

1:13:00.000,1:13:04.560
the years

1:13:01.040,1:13:06.159
uh i think that the ecosystem has

1:13:04.560,1:13:09.199
suffered and i think that that's

1:13:06.159,1:13:09.920
part of where um we've seen more of

1:13:09.199,1:13:12.640
these

1:13:09.920,1:13:14.400
uh agencies look at partnering with

1:13:12.640,1:13:15.360
other platforms and look at building

1:13:14.400,1:13:18.159
other

1:13:15.360,1:13:19.360
solutions part of it is that there are

1:13:18.159,1:13:21.120
users so let's say

1:13:19.360,1:13:23.440
you know i mean i dealt with this years

1:13:21.120,1:13:24.560
ago as an agency that you know magento 2

1:13:23.440,1:13:28.159
came out in

1:13:24.560,1:13:29.679
the end of 2015 and it was

1:13:28.159,1:13:32.400
it still should have been an alpha

1:13:29.679,1:13:34.000
forget beta um it was rough it was rough

1:13:32.400,1:13:37.520
around the edges it was new

1:13:34.000,1:13:39.679
um and we had people that

1:13:37.520,1:13:41.760
we were talking about builds with and it

1:13:39.679,1:13:44.239
was like well if we build you on magento

1:13:41.760,1:13:46.480
2 i have to budget

1:13:44.239,1:13:48.080
multiple because we're going to be

1:13:46.480,1:13:49.760
debugging this for a while

1:13:48.080,1:13:51.440
and it's going to take longer to launch

1:13:49.760,1:13:52.480
it's going to cost more to maintain

1:13:51.440,1:13:54.239
there are things that there aren't

1:13:52.480,1:13:55.120
extensions available for yet new

1:13:54.239,1:13:56.800
software

1:13:55.120,1:13:58.400
um that we're going to need to custom

1:13:56.800,1:14:00.560
write extensions for you

1:13:58.400,1:14:01.760
um there's going gonna there's gonna be

1:14:00.560,1:14:04.320
a cost of being an

1:14:01.760,1:14:05.840
earlier adopter nothing that we all

1:14:04.320,1:14:06.560
haven't seen before in tech in other

1:14:05.840,1:14:10.560
ways

1:14:06.560,1:14:11.280
uh and so their choice was go to magento

1:14:10.560,1:14:14.960
one

1:14:11.280,1:14:18.000
or go to the go to magento 2 but

1:14:14.960,1:14:21.440
would be a test dummy um

1:14:18.000,1:14:24.159
and pay pay a price for that uh you know

1:14:21.440,1:14:25.120
not just in time and effort but in

1:14:24.159,1:14:27.920
dollars

1:14:25.120,1:14:29.280
uh and so at that point we really

1:14:27.920,1:14:30.800
started to see more demand and we'd

1:14:29.280,1:14:32.800
already seen a little bit of it

1:14:30.800,1:14:34.120
um in magenta one there'd been patches

1:14:32.800,1:14:37.679
like super

1:14:34.120,1:14:38.640
6788 um that changed some admin pathing

1:14:37.679,1:14:40.560
some routing and

1:14:38.640,1:14:42.159
and so all the extensions needed to be

1:14:40.560,1:14:43.920
updated and there were you know magento

1:14:42.159,1:14:45.840
sites that had dozens of extensions and

1:14:43.920,1:14:46.640
the hours that it took to download and

1:14:45.840,1:14:48.960
update

1:14:46.640,1:14:49.679
and test and deal with all those

1:14:48.960,1:14:52.560
extensions

1:14:49.679,1:14:53.840
it was a lot of hours at agency rates to

1:14:52.560,1:14:55.440
charge a user

1:14:53.840,1:14:58.800
and they got a bill that they weren't

1:14:55.440,1:15:02.239
accustomed to the same with super 7405

1:14:58.800,1:15:03.600
there was a um it was a patch

1:15:02.239,1:15:06.000
not if i remember correctly my

1:15:03.600,1:15:07.199
chronology wasn't that long after 6788

1:15:06.000,1:15:08.080
and it was a dud it needed to be

1:15:07.199,1:15:09.679
repatched

1:15:08.080,1:15:11.679
and so now people had to pay twice in a

1:15:09.679,1:15:13.920
row in a short period of time

1:15:11.679,1:15:15.679
um and we started to feel pushback from

1:15:13.920,1:15:16.560
the market as more and more patches were

1:15:15.679,1:15:18.480
coming out

1:15:16.560,1:15:19.760
and as they were in some cases less

1:15:18.480,1:15:22.000
predictable in terms

1:15:19.760,1:15:24.000
and more expensive to manage where we

1:15:22.000,1:15:25.840
saw that people like the platform

1:15:24.000,1:15:27.280
but they weren't necessarily prepared to

1:15:25.840,1:15:30.320
pay at

1:15:27.280,1:15:31.520
us rates at least i can't speak for for

1:15:30.320,1:15:35.360
everyone else but let's say we were at

1:15:31.520,1:15:37.840
125 or 150 an hour depending on the year

1:15:35.360,1:15:39.360
that not everyone was thrilled about and

1:15:37.840,1:15:40.719
at the same time sas was coming up and

1:15:39.360,1:15:41.840
so we found that those merchants that

1:15:40.719,1:15:43.360
weren't thrilled they were typically

1:15:41.840,1:15:45.199
doing maybe a few hundred thousand

1:15:43.360,1:15:46.719
dollars in online revenue

1:15:45.199,1:15:48.320
it didn't make a tremendous amount of

1:15:46.719,1:15:50.480
sense to budget for

1:15:48.320,1:15:53.120
the amount of maintenance needed and so

1:15:50.480,1:15:55.920
when it came time to look at going to

1:15:53.120,1:15:57.760
uh magento 2 also originally expecting

1:15:55.920,1:15:59.280
magento one was supposed to go into life

1:15:57.760,1:16:02.480
in 2018

1:15:59.280,1:16:05.040
um the conversation became and we

1:16:02.480,1:16:06.400
advised as an agency look you know we

1:16:05.040,1:16:08.320
you know we can take you on to this

1:16:06.400,1:16:10.159
platform or this and we gave them

1:16:08.320,1:16:11.600
uh a little bit of a look at which was

1:16:10.159,1:16:13.199
better and we had partnerships with all

1:16:11.600,1:16:16.560
these different platforms

1:16:13.199,1:16:18.640
um and i think it was an

1:16:16.560,1:16:20.480
important experience and so that

1:16:18.640,1:16:22.640
happened early on

1:16:20.480,1:16:24.239
um the larger users were absolutely

1:16:22.640,1:16:25.920
going to stay on magento and some were

1:16:24.239,1:16:29.120
going to start moving to magento

1:16:25.920,1:16:29.120
too sooner than later

1:16:29.360,1:16:32.880
but a lot of this comes down to the

1:16:31.040,1:16:34.960
specifics like just about everything

1:16:32.880,1:16:37.280
else in life

1:16:34.960,1:16:39.199
and so i i can go back to those those

1:16:37.280,1:16:40.239
memories of having to sort through that

1:16:39.199,1:16:44.560
and really

1:16:40.239,1:16:48.320
you know that experience um you know led

1:16:44.560,1:16:51.520
me as a leader of an agency to really

1:16:48.320,1:16:53.120
uh expand i'll i'll add a caveat that we

1:16:51.520,1:16:54.000
did a lot of digital marketing so we

1:16:53.120,1:16:55.920
were really

1:16:54.000,1:16:57.199
pretty well balanced between the design

1:16:55.920,1:16:58.960
and development side of the house and

1:16:57.199,1:17:00.000
the digital marketing side which is not

1:16:58.960,1:17:02.560
as common

1:17:00.000,1:17:04.239
in the agency world um and so we were

1:17:02.560,1:17:05.440
google premier partners we were in the

1:17:04.239,1:17:08.719
top three percent of

1:17:05.440,1:17:11.360
google had partners in the world and uh

1:17:08.719,1:17:13.840
we you know we did a lot of great stuff

1:17:11.360,1:17:16.320
with seo social media email marketing

1:17:13.840,1:17:17.840
um and so we weren't completely reliant

1:17:16.320,1:17:21.120
on the dev side

1:17:17.840,1:17:22.960
for all revenue there was a balance but

1:17:21.120,1:17:24.320
we could partner with any platform

1:17:22.960,1:17:26.960
because to run google ads

1:17:24.320,1:17:27.920
you know i had strong relationships with

1:17:26.960,1:17:31.199
teams at

1:17:27.920,1:17:33.600
meva x-cart

1:17:31.199,1:17:35.360
all sorts of companies where we didn't

1:17:33.600,1:17:37.920
necessarily do a lot of work building

1:17:35.360,1:17:40.000
the sites

1:17:37.920,1:17:42.080
we maybe we designed for for the sites

1:17:40.000,1:17:44.239
but didn't do as much development

1:17:42.080,1:17:45.920
but we had great relationships with the

1:17:44.239,1:17:46.800
teams and and were able to really

1:17:45.920,1:17:49.040
provide

1:17:46.800,1:17:51.280
additional services value-added services

1:17:49.040,1:17:53.760
marketing services

1:17:51.280,1:17:54.320
and so perhaps you know i already had my

1:17:53.760,1:17:56.239
feet

1:17:54.320,1:17:57.600
my toes dipping into other waters and it

1:17:56.239,1:18:00.960
was easier

1:17:57.600,1:18:02.560
because of that um to that i knew what

1:18:00.960,1:18:04.480
some of these platforms were up to and

1:18:02.560,1:18:06.000
which were going to be strong at what

1:18:04.480,1:18:07.679
and so it was easier to have that

1:18:06.000,1:18:09.600
relationship with the shopify team and

1:18:07.679,1:18:11.679
with the big commerce team and

1:18:09.600,1:18:13.360
um and to understand who was going to be

1:18:11.679,1:18:15.280
a good use case and where

1:18:13.360,1:18:16.800
but that that's always been a challenge

1:18:15.280,1:18:18.159
for the market and i think it it still

1:18:16.800,1:18:20.560
is to this day

1:18:18.159,1:18:21.679
that i run into merchants that make a

1:18:20.560,1:18:24.239
choice whether it's

1:18:21.679,1:18:24.800
commerce cloud or whether it's um going

1:18:24.239,1:18:26.560
to

1:18:24.800,1:18:28.320
you know shopify or this platform or

1:18:26.560,1:18:29.920
that platform or whatever it may be

1:18:28.320,1:18:32.000
that there's an amount of buyers remorse

1:18:29.920,1:18:33.199
or something the grass is always greener

1:18:32.000,1:18:36.239
on the other side

1:18:33.199,1:18:38.000
so they focus on the cool new

1:18:36.239,1:18:39.440
you know what on the pain point that

1:18:38.000,1:18:41.840
they're they're going to resolve

1:18:39.440,1:18:42.480
and they don't really focus on all the

1:18:41.840,1:18:44.159
other

1:18:42.480,1:18:45.600
they don't do a risk analysis that's the

1:18:44.159,1:18:48.880
missing component here

1:18:45.600,1:18:50.000
um i think that you know at least when

1:18:48.880,1:18:52.320
you get to any certain

1:18:50.000,1:18:54.239
size of scale mid-market there's really

1:18:52.320,1:18:55.840
should be a risk analysis of if i go

1:18:54.239,1:18:58.800
with this platform

1:18:55.840,1:19:01.280
um what are the what are the cons not

1:18:58.800,1:19:04.480
just the pros

1:19:01.280,1:19:06.159
that i've found is is a rarity

1:19:04.480,1:19:08.880
in the industry and and i think a lot of

1:19:06.159,1:19:10.400
merchants uh get

1:19:08.880,1:19:12.239
you know get knocked around like a

1:19:10.400,1:19:14.080
tennis ball because of it

1:19:12.239,1:19:16.080
from you know that they will go back and

1:19:14.080,1:19:17.600
forth with platforms

1:19:16.080,1:19:19.040
yeah that's an interesting way to phrase

1:19:17.600,1:19:20.840
it a risk analysis because because

1:19:19.040,1:19:22.480
merchants will go through platform

1:19:20.840,1:19:24.239
selection um

1:19:22.480,1:19:26.640
and things like that but i like that

1:19:24.239,1:19:28.400
idea of listen you're doing a risk

1:19:26.640,1:19:30.000
it doesn't mean there's necessarily one

1:19:28.400,1:19:31.840
platform that's going to be best that's

1:19:30.000,1:19:33.679
going to solve all your needs but

1:19:31.840,1:19:35.360
you're going to have to balance out all

1:19:33.679,1:19:37.840
of the different risks

1:19:35.360,1:19:38.719
and potential benefits i like that

1:19:37.840,1:19:40.640
framing

1:19:38.719,1:19:42.400
but uh robert we're a bit we're at our

1:19:40.640,1:19:43.280
time here the kids are knocking down my

1:19:42.400,1:19:46.320
door

1:19:43.280,1:19:48.000
uh it was fun to catch up with you

1:19:46.320,1:19:49.440
uh where's the best place for people to

1:19:48.000,1:19:53.360
find you online

1:19:49.440,1:19:54.159
um well they can find jet rails at jet

1:19:53.360,1:19:55.840
rails on

1:19:54.159,1:19:57.280
you know pretty much anywhere that you

1:19:55.840,1:19:59.679
can think of

1:19:57.280,1:20:00.640
they can find me on linkedin easily

1:19:59.679,1:20:03.679
robert

1:20:00.640,1:20:08.480
dot r jetrails.com drop me a line love

1:20:03.679,1:20:08.480
to hear from folks