0:00:00.080,0:00:03.679
that's kind of the third area that we're

0:00:02.080,0:00:06.799
actually getting more and more into

0:00:03.679,0:00:09.920
is uh just truly custom e-commerce

0:00:06.799,0:00:10.800
uh where their business model is not a

0:00:09.920,0:00:12.480
standard

0:00:10.800,0:00:14.000
like we're gonna buy a widget and ship

0:00:12.480,0:00:15.759
it to your house

0:00:14.000,0:00:17.279
and uh so we're kind of expanding the

0:00:15.759,0:00:19.359
idea of e-commerce a little more broadly

0:00:17.279,0:00:30.300
and building solutions that don't fit on

0:00:19.359,0:00:35.529
any e-commerce framework

0:00:30.300,0:00:35.529
[Music]

0:00:36.239,0:00:39.840
scott how you doing sir i'm doing well

0:00:38.879,0:00:42.399
how about you

0:00:39.840,0:00:44.160
not too bad not too bad it's a little uh

0:00:42.399,0:00:46.719
a little cloudy a little overcast

0:00:44.160,0:00:48.559
today so the weather has been like a lot

0:00:46.719,0:00:51.360
nicer than usual well it's a lot

0:00:48.559,0:00:53.199
like a lot warmer um like last year

0:00:51.360,0:00:56.320
around like halloween it was just like

0:00:53.199,0:00:59.039
freezing it was like 30 degrees

0:00:56.320,0:01:00.079
so i'm kind of riding this this wave out

0:00:59.039,0:01:03.120
as

0:01:00.079,0:01:05.600
as long as you can it was uh 70

0:01:03.120,0:01:06.960
up here uh actually it was almost 80

0:01:05.600,0:01:08.400
over the weekend here in new jersey

0:01:06.960,0:01:10.880
which is just you don't get that in

0:01:08.400,0:01:11.600
in right in november so right right

0:01:10.880,0:01:13.600
right

0:01:11.600,0:01:15.840
went out and took a good walk outside

0:01:13.600,0:01:18.159
nice nice yeah it seems like that's

0:01:15.840,0:01:19.200
i i have a buddy in michigan it was also

0:01:18.159,0:01:21.439
like it was like

0:01:19.200,0:01:23.200
warmer than usual so i guess it's like

0:01:21.439,0:01:25.600
the whole country

0:01:23.200,0:01:27.439
so um so how's everything going during

0:01:25.600,0:01:31.119
covid how what are you doing to stay

0:01:27.439,0:01:33.439
sane hopefully you are staying sane

0:01:31.119,0:01:34.320
um yeah how's it going yeah uh

0:01:33.439,0:01:36.400
thankfully

0:01:34.320,0:01:37.920
um you know we've been doing pretty well

0:01:36.400,0:01:38.320
uh you know kind of hunkered down into

0:01:37.920,0:01:41.600
our

0:01:38.320,0:01:43.280
our little island here um thankfully

0:01:41.600,0:01:44.240
you know more recently things opened

0:01:43.280,0:01:45.680
back up so i think they're going to

0:01:44.240,0:01:47.840
close back down again so

0:01:45.680,0:01:48.960
we're able to carefully you know step

0:01:47.840,0:01:50.640
out but

0:01:48.960,0:01:51.600
personally it hasn't been too bad for us

0:01:50.640,0:01:53.360
i know a lot of people have been

0:01:51.600,0:01:55.439
infected pretty badly but thankfully

0:01:53.360,0:01:56.960
at least this is from my family and um

0:01:55.439,0:01:58.960
for our company it's not been

0:01:56.960,0:02:00.079
it's not been too bad yeah yeah that's

0:01:58.960,0:02:01.840
good man um

0:02:00.079,0:02:03.600
and have you worked remotely do you work

0:02:01.840,0:02:04.560
remotely or have you worked remotely for

0:02:03.600,0:02:06.560
a while yeah

0:02:04.560,0:02:08.080
yeah so we were actually before covet

0:02:06.560,0:02:11.440
hit we were putting together a plan

0:02:08.080,0:02:13.440
to start going remote um we had

0:02:11.440,0:02:15.520
uh because we we had actually a really

0:02:13.440,0:02:17.680
strong in-office culture for a long time

0:02:15.520,0:02:19.200
um and had made our first foray into

0:02:17.680,0:02:21.040
hiring remotely i think

0:02:19.200,0:02:22.560
uh almost about a year ago so it was

0:02:21.040,0:02:26.000
like september of last

0:02:22.560,0:02:27.280
of 2019 um and uh it

0:02:26.000,0:02:28.640
it didn't work out that well i think we

0:02:27.280,0:02:29.360
just didn't have the processes in place

0:02:28.640,0:02:30.800
to support it

0:02:29.360,0:02:32.319
um and it was only a contract like

0:02:30.800,0:02:32.959
temporary contract so it wasn't you know

0:02:32.319,0:02:36.080
a huge

0:02:32.959,0:02:37.599
issue but like was actually someone who

0:02:36.080,0:02:39.840
she did great work and we would have

0:02:37.599,0:02:41.760
liked to bring her on uh permanently

0:02:39.840,0:02:42.720
um but she kind of said no to us and i

0:02:41.760,0:02:43.920
think it was partially because we didn't

0:02:42.720,0:02:44.959
really support her very well and so it

0:02:43.920,0:02:46.959
wasn't a very good

0:02:44.959,0:02:48.239
relationship so we took a step back from

0:02:46.959,0:02:50.400
that and said okay let's actually

0:02:48.239,0:02:53.760
get some processes in place that would

0:02:50.400,0:02:54.800
let us do remote work well

0:02:53.760,0:02:56.720
and originally it was going to kind of a

0:02:54.800,0:02:58.319
hybrid model but then covet hit and it

0:02:56.720,0:02:59.920
would just accelerate all of our plans

0:02:58.319,0:03:01.280
but what we did then is we have now

0:02:59.920,0:03:02.080
officially said okay we're going to go

0:03:01.280,0:03:04.159
remote

0:03:02.080,0:03:06.000
permanently um and uh you know we

0:03:04.159,0:03:06.319
actually left our lease in our office

0:03:06.000,0:03:08.239
and

0:03:06.319,0:03:09.440
oh wow are not now officially fully

0:03:08.239,0:03:10.640
remote even

0:03:09.440,0:03:12.959
when everything's gonna open back up

0:03:10.640,0:03:14.159
fully yeah man i think a lot of

0:03:12.959,0:03:16.959
companies are going through that

0:03:14.159,0:03:17.760
transition um what are what are some of

0:03:16.959,0:03:18.959
the um

0:03:17.760,0:03:20.480
and i think i think everybody goes

0:03:18.959,0:03:21.440
through that transition where you kind

0:03:20.480,0:03:23.680
of try it

0:03:21.440,0:03:25.360
but it's not fully baked and it's you

0:03:23.680,0:03:26.080
know it's kind of awkward and stuff like

0:03:25.360,0:03:28.879
that

0:03:26.080,0:03:30.799
um what are some of the things you're

0:03:28.879,0:03:31.599
thinking about or you know processes

0:03:30.799,0:03:34.799
you're trying to

0:03:31.599,0:03:36.319
get into place to make it work yeah so i

0:03:34.799,0:03:37.920
mean the issues that we ran into in the

0:03:36.319,0:03:41.040
first place were more

0:03:37.920,0:03:41.440
around um communication and culture in

0:03:41.040,0:03:44.080
term

0:03:41.440,0:03:44.959
just i think that this freelancer

0:03:44.080,0:03:47.840
contractor we had

0:03:44.959,0:03:49.200
hired she felt disconnected she wasn't

0:03:47.840,0:03:51.280
she didn't feel like part of the team

0:03:49.200,0:03:52.799
we kind of pushed a project over to her

0:03:51.280,0:03:54.400
and i would check in with slack

0:03:52.799,0:03:55.599
uh you know and so it's probably that

0:03:54.400,0:03:56.159
that was probably on me personally i

0:03:55.599,0:03:58.159
wasn't

0:03:56.159,0:04:00.720
communicating with her as much as we i

0:03:58.159,0:04:01.920
could have but again the culture for the

0:04:00.720,0:04:03.200
whole company would revolve around the

0:04:01.920,0:04:03.599
office we could see each other around

0:04:03.200,0:04:05.519
and

0:04:03.599,0:04:06.799
check in with each other there a lot a

0:04:05.519,0:04:08.879
lot of informal check-ins

0:04:06.799,0:04:10.000
um and so you know she didn't have that

0:04:08.879,0:04:12.879
so part of our

0:04:10.000,0:04:14.080
vision initially before kova that we

0:04:12.879,0:04:16.560
were trying to fix

0:04:14.080,0:04:17.519
was you know how how do we incorporate

0:04:16.560,0:04:19.040
remote people

0:04:17.519,0:04:21.120
almost into the office like how do we

0:04:19.040,0:04:22.400
bring that culture into the office or

0:04:21.120,0:04:24.160
push everything even in the office

0:04:22.400,0:04:27.120
remote so that there's kind of 11

0:04:24.160,0:04:27.120
level playing field

0:04:27.199,0:04:30.400
thankfully once everyone did go remote

0:04:28.880,0:04:32.400
that kind of forced some of that issue i

0:04:30.400,0:04:33.759
mean there's definitely still a cultural

0:04:32.400,0:04:35.520
thing you've got to deal with i'd say

0:04:33.759,0:04:38.080
the bigger challenges once we did a

0:04:35.520,0:04:39.199
remote were all the logistical things

0:04:38.080,0:04:41.360
you know we had we had a health

0:04:39.199,0:04:43.280
insurance plan that only supported

0:04:41.360,0:04:44.639
people in new jersey so if you watch you

0:04:43.280,0:04:47.600
want to hire remotely you know now we've

0:04:44.639,0:04:47.600
got to change health insurance

0:04:47.759,0:04:51.440
like we have we had an it provider who

0:04:49.840,0:04:51.919
like did like like just help desk type

0:04:51.440,0:04:53.199
support

0:04:51.919,0:04:55.680
who you know was really only set up for

0:04:53.199,0:04:57.120
doing local uh help desk stuff so we had

0:04:55.680,0:04:58.080
to figure out how to do it support

0:04:57.120,0:04:59.440
remotely so

0:04:58.080,0:05:01.919
it's just those little logistical stuff

0:04:59.440,0:05:03.520
that what did you do with healthcare i

0:05:01.919,0:05:05.520
know healthcare is is

0:05:03.520,0:05:07.039
complicated a lot of people struggle

0:05:05.520,0:05:09.039
with it was there a

0:05:07.039,0:05:11.520
provider that you found that was just

0:05:09.039,0:05:13.840
great like across the us

0:05:11.520,0:05:15.199
uh we already were using paychecks for

0:05:13.840,0:05:18.800
um just to handling our

0:05:15.199,0:05:20.479
paycheck processing um but we were

0:05:18.800,0:05:22.160
our health insurance plan was purchased

0:05:20.479,0:05:23.680
directly by our company

0:05:22.160,0:05:26.160
what we did was we did go ahead and

0:05:23.680,0:05:27.600
switch to paychecks as peo program

0:05:26.160,0:05:29.600
um and because their peo program is

0:05:27.600,0:05:30.320
national their healthcare plan is also

0:05:29.600,0:05:32.960
national

0:05:30.320,0:05:34.880
um so then we were able to uh you know

0:05:32.960,0:05:37.600
offer it through that peo

0:05:34.880,0:05:38.000
nice and then like as far as other stuff

0:05:37.600,0:05:41.280
like

0:05:38.000,0:05:41.680
like where like what uh what tools are

0:05:41.280,0:05:44.080
using

0:05:41.680,0:05:45.600
slack are you are you relying more

0:05:44.080,0:05:48.080
heavily on like

0:05:45.600,0:05:49.680
writing stuff down in jira ticketing

0:05:48.080,0:05:52.320
that kind of stuff like

0:05:49.680,0:05:53.440
what type of stuff are y'all doing yeah

0:05:52.320,0:05:56.000
we've had a

0:05:53.440,0:05:57.440
reasonably strong i wouldn't say super

0:05:56.000,0:05:58.639
strong but a reasonably strong culture

0:05:57.440,0:05:59.759
of writing things down in the first

0:05:58.639,0:06:01.199
place so

0:05:59.759,0:06:04.560
that that helped us we didn't really

0:06:01.199,0:06:07.039
have to transition a whole lot there

0:06:04.560,0:06:08.400
but we were already using slack but

0:06:07.039,0:06:09.360
obviously

0:06:08.400,0:06:11.039
one of the big differences well the

0:06:09.360,0:06:11.680
development team used slack very

0:06:11.039,0:06:13.360
regularly

0:06:11.680,0:06:14.880
but we were kind and technically it was

0:06:13.360,0:06:16.000
rolled out to the whole company but a

0:06:14.880,0:06:16.960
lot of other teams especially our

0:06:16.000,0:06:18.240
creative team they know they love

0:06:16.960,0:06:20.479
talking to each other in person

0:06:18.240,0:06:21.680
um so there's kind of like this silo of

0:06:20.479,0:06:22.800
development from the whole rest of the

0:06:21.680,0:06:25.360
company

0:06:22.800,0:06:26.160
but uh with going remote now slack is

0:06:25.360,0:06:27.840
where everybody

0:06:26.160,0:06:29.680
lives and so there's just a lot more

0:06:27.840,0:06:32.560
volume going through there

0:06:29.680,0:06:34.639
right slack definitely has its downsides

0:06:32.560,0:06:37.280
as far as uh

0:06:34.639,0:06:38.479
kind of effect on communication um but

0:06:37.280,0:06:39.280
for the most part it's worked pretty

0:06:38.479,0:06:41.600
well for us

0:06:39.280,0:06:42.479
right right the universal slack

0:06:41.600,0:06:45.440
notification

0:06:42.479,0:06:46.960
sound just popping up all over the all

0:06:45.440,0:06:48.560
day long and stuff like that

0:06:46.960,0:06:50.080
yeah um one of the things i mean i

0:06:48.560,0:06:51.360
personally do and this isn't a company

0:06:50.080,0:06:52.720
thing but i actually turned off those

0:06:51.360,0:06:56.080
notifications because

0:06:52.720,0:06:57.280
uh i actually i i was i haven't gone as

0:06:56.080,0:06:59.039
far as you i think you like

0:06:57.280,0:07:00.800
schedule out your day like crazy like

0:06:59.039,0:07:02.639
you know like i said you know

0:07:00.800,0:07:03.599
we were just on twitter dms last night

0:07:02.639,0:07:04.240
and you said oh i checked my email in

0:07:03.599,0:07:06.240
the morning

0:07:04.240,0:07:07.360
um and i remember on twitter when you

0:07:06.240,0:07:08.160
were first talking about kind of putting

0:07:07.360,0:07:10.000
that in place

0:07:08.160,0:07:11.440
i don't go that far but yeah i was like

0:07:10.000,0:07:12.560
partially inspired by that

0:07:11.440,0:07:14.400
i kind of was already doing it but i

0:07:12.560,0:07:16.240
went further this direction basically

0:07:14.400,0:07:17.759
all notifications turned off everywhere

0:07:16.240,0:07:19.360
i still check it a lot more frequently i

0:07:17.759,0:07:20.960
think that probably you do right slack

0:07:19.360,0:07:22.479
or email babysitter but at least it's

0:07:20.960,0:07:23.680
not popping up in my face

0:07:22.479,0:07:25.919
uh it distracts me when i'm trying to

0:07:23.680,0:07:28.240
work on something else yeah

0:07:25.919,0:07:29.840
have you you know it's interesting like

0:07:28.240,0:07:31.440
you you mentioned it's not like a

0:07:29.840,0:07:32.560
company policy necessarily

0:07:31.440,0:07:35.039
that's one of the things i think about

0:07:32.560,0:07:37.120
is like how do you roll those things out

0:07:35.039,0:07:39.599
across the company where it's like

0:07:37.120,0:07:41.280
you want to tell people like hey you

0:07:39.599,0:07:43.199
know protect your time

0:07:41.280,0:07:45.599
try not to get so distracted by all the

0:07:43.199,0:07:47.440
notifications but at the same time

0:07:45.599,0:07:48.879
it might not necessarily be a official

0:07:47.440,0:07:51.120
company policy of turning your

0:07:48.879,0:07:52.400
notifications off you know

0:07:51.120,0:07:53.680
yeah so one thing that we've been

0:07:52.400,0:07:54.319
playing with we haven't actually done

0:07:53.680,0:07:56.240
this yet

0:07:54.319,0:07:57.280
um so you know hi anybody from like a

0:07:56.240,0:07:58.400
team who's actually going to listen to

0:07:57.280,0:08:00.160
this

0:07:58.400,0:08:01.440
but we've actually thought about putting

0:08:00.160,0:08:03.599
surprise

0:08:01.440,0:08:04.479
yeah we've we've thought about putting

0:08:03.599,0:08:06.240
together

0:08:04.479,0:08:08.000
and this is like sounds way more rigid

0:08:06.240,0:08:10.879
than it would actually be like almost an

0:08:08.000,0:08:12.319
sla by communication method just as a

0:08:10.879,0:08:14.479
guideline for expectation

0:08:12.319,0:08:16.160
um you know if someone texts you like

0:08:14.479,0:08:17.840
that's like a p1 and so

0:08:16.160,0:08:20.960
the only way i would contact someone on

0:08:17.840,0:08:23.199
my team like off hours if i needed

0:08:20.960,0:08:24.240
like you know p1 emergency major client

0:08:23.199,0:08:26.160
sites down or something

0:08:24.240,0:08:27.440
is i'm going to text them personally

0:08:26.160,0:08:28.240
yeah because i'm not expecting them to

0:08:27.440,0:08:31.280
look at slack

0:08:28.240,0:08:32.880
off hours um and uh

0:08:31.280,0:08:34.640
and so like and then it's like slack is

0:08:32.880,0:08:36.240
probably one level down from that email

0:08:34.640,0:08:37.680
and just kind of set an expectation that

0:08:36.240,0:08:39.680
way of saying

0:08:37.680,0:08:41.360
you know email if you get back to me

0:08:39.680,0:08:44.399
that same day or the next day

0:08:41.360,0:08:45.760
that's fine uh you know no need to

0:08:44.399,0:08:47.360
respond immediately to that

0:08:45.760,0:08:50.560
slack i don't know what what it is but

0:08:47.360,0:08:51.519
maybe within within an hour or two

0:08:50.560,0:08:52.880
you know just kind of setting some

0:08:51.519,0:08:54.240
expectations there i think will be

0:08:52.880,0:08:55.600
helpful um

0:08:54.240,0:08:56.880
we that was actually part of our initial

0:08:55.600,0:08:58.320
plan when we went remote to roll that

0:08:56.880,0:08:59.839
out but there was just so much to do we

0:08:58.320,0:09:03.519
didn't actually get that out yet but

0:08:59.839,0:09:05.839
nice yeah i love that idea like

0:09:03.519,0:09:07.760
yeah i love that idea like sla is by

0:09:05.839,0:09:10.480
communication channel because it's like

0:09:07.760,0:09:12.399
for some people email is immediate it's

0:09:10.480,0:09:14.880
like respond within minutes

0:09:12.399,0:09:15.600
uh i think there's a general expectation

0:09:14.880,0:09:18.959
that it's like

0:09:15.600,0:09:20.560
like you said a day or so ish um whereas

0:09:18.959,0:09:24.080
other channels i think you wanna

0:09:20.560,0:09:26.080
you know get to them more quickly um so

0:09:24.080,0:09:27.200
the company workforce ripen ripen

0:09:26.080,0:09:30.320
digital

0:09:27.200,0:09:32.080
um and uh it's just right there but

0:09:30.320,0:09:34.240
right i'm sorry we do digital stuff

0:09:32.080,0:09:34.240
though

0:09:34.800,0:09:38.000
so what uh what do you guys kind of

0:09:36.480,0:09:39.760
specialize in i know you're obviously in

0:09:38.000,0:09:41.200
the e-commerce space and

0:09:39.760,0:09:43.760
uh stuff like that but what do you guys

0:09:41.200,0:09:47.040
specialize in what makes you guys unique

0:09:43.760,0:09:48.560
yeah so um we we were very generalist

0:09:47.040,0:09:49.920
for a long time and we still

0:09:48.560,0:09:52.560
are generalist in the sense that we

0:09:49.920,0:09:55.519
would take on e-commerce projects of

0:09:52.560,0:09:56.240
of pretty much any shape or size we

0:09:55.519,0:09:58.000
really don't

0:09:56.240,0:09:59.760
or try to stay as much as possible from

0:09:58.000,0:10:00.640
anything that's not truly e-commerce

0:09:59.760,0:10:02.880
related

0:10:00.640,0:10:04.720
but i would say kind of over the last

0:10:02.880,0:10:05.440
couple of years like three main areas

0:10:04.720,0:10:07.279
have

0:10:05.440,0:10:09.680
evolved as particular strength areas for

0:10:07.279,0:10:12.640
us um you know one one of those

0:10:09.680,0:10:14.000
is really content-led design so we we

0:10:12.640,0:10:16.079
have a full content studio

0:10:14.000,0:10:18.480
in-house a video studio a photography

0:10:16.079,0:10:21.120
studio um we can use really high-end

0:10:18.480,0:10:22.160
uh uh content work there so when it

0:10:21.120,0:10:24.320
comes to

0:10:22.160,0:10:25.440
uh like d2c brands that want to have a

0:10:24.320,0:10:28.480
really content-led

0:10:25.440,0:10:30.000
uh approach to their site um in

0:10:28.480,0:10:31.360
those cases the dev team almost you know

0:10:30.000,0:10:32.880
we still are involved but we almost

0:10:31.360,0:10:35.120
received into the background and it's

0:10:32.880,0:10:36.560
it's really our designers uh working

0:10:35.120,0:10:38.320
with page builders but

0:10:36.560,0:10:40.240
doing a really like heavy content driven

0:10:38.320,0:10:41.760
approach

0:10:40.240,0:10:42.880
kind of on the far opposite side of the

0:10:41.760,0:10:43.519
spectrum are kind of our other two

0:10:42.880,0:10:45.920
strengths

0:10:43.519,0:10:47.279
that are much more engineering-led one

0:10:45.920,0:10:50.399
is we've we've built

0:10:47.279,0:10:52.800
a in in-house uh

0:10:50.399,0:10:54.880
product that connects magento with

0:10:52.800,0:10:58.959
profit 21 which is an epicore

0:10:54.880,0:11:01.279
erp and we've been rolling that out to

0:10:58.959,0:11:03.120
a number of clients now it's an

0:11:01.279,0:11:06.800
interesting space because

0:11:03.120,0:11:08.800
the the property 21 erp is specifically

0:11:06.800,0:11:11.360
sold to distributors and wholesalers

0:11:08.800,0:11:12.640
or not exclusively but largely so a lot

0:11:11.360,0:11:15.600
of these

0:11:12.640,0:11:16.959
businesses are doing dual b2b and b2c

0:11:15.600,0:11:19.279
channels simultaneously

0:11:16.959,0:11:21.279
um so they need to straddle the line of

0:11:19.279,0:11:22.480
of both of those sorts of functionality

0:11:21.279,0:11:24.640
um so that's been an interesting

0:11:22.480,0:11:26.720
challenge to work on

0:11:24.640,0:11:28.320
that's kind of the third area that we're

0:11:26.720,0:11:31.440
actually getting more and more into

0:11:28.320,0:11:34.640
is uh just truly custom e-commerce

0:11:31.440,0:11:35.440
uh where their business model is not a

0:11:34.640,0:11:37.120
standard

0:11:35.440,0:11:38.720
like we're gonna buy a widget and ship

0:11:37.120,0:11:40.399
it to your house um

0:11:38.720,0:11:42.000
and uh so we're kind of expanding the

0:11:40.399,0:11:44.079
idea of e-commerce a little more broadly

0:11:42.000,0:11:45.839
and building solutions that don't fit on

0:11:44.079,0:11:47.440
any e-commerce framework so

0:11:45.839,0:11:48.880
um we work with one company that's like

0:11:47.440,0:11:50.560
a medical alerts company

0:11:48.880,0:11:52.800
uh that sells like service like

0:11:50.560,0:11:54.639
dependents for uh for seniors

0:11:52.800,0:11:56.160
um and so the whole purchasing process

0:11:54.639,0:11:57.200
for that that one's a little bit more

0:11:56.160,0:11:58.880
standard but still there's like a

0:11:57.200,0:12:00.000
subscription plan like a sas plan that

0:11:58.880,0:12:02.399
goes behind that

0:12:00.000,0:12:03.600
um working with the telehealth company

0:12:02.399,0:12:05.680
right now to sell

0:12:03.600,0:12:07.839
uh to kind of build the whole like front

0:12:05.680,0:12:10.560
end purchasing process for

0:12:07.839,0:12:10.880
doctors practices to you know purchase a

0:12:10.560,0:12:14.000
a

0:12:10.880,0:12:15.040
telehealth um product so we've you know

0:12:14.000,0:12:16.720
kind of some interesting

0:12:15.040,0:12:18.240
projects along those lines as well

0:12:16.720,0:12:20.639
that's interesting man you're hitting

0:12:18.240,0:12:23.040
like all of the like so many of the

0:12:20.639,0:12:24.800
important trends right now like b2b

0:12:23.040,0:12:26.320
like like content driven stuff

0:12:24.800,0:12:28.480
experiential stuff

0:12:26.320,0:12:30.240
and then like it sounds like headless

0:12:28.480,0:12:31.680
maybe you're like you know ecommerce is

0:12:30.240,0:12:33.920
just super custom

0:12:31.680,0:12:35.519
um which i'd say are like three of the

0:12:33.920,0:12:37.120
strongest trends

0:12:35.519,0:12:39.279
uh in e-commerce right now so that's

0:12:37.120,0:12:40.959
that's pretty interesting

0:12:39.279,0:12:42.560
we've explored headless uh we've

0:12:40.959,0:12:44.480
actually built we haven't actually

0:12:42.560,0:12:45.760
launched a headless e-commerce site yet

0:12:44.480,0:12:48.160
we've launched a number of headless

0:12:45.760,0:12:50.000
uh sites that are i say we stick to

0:12:48.160,0:12:51.519
e-commerce we'll occasionally take on a

0:12:50.000,0:12:52.720
content site if it kind of comes along

0:12:51.519,0:12:54.079
with a client who's we're doing

0:12:52.720,0:12:56.720
e-commerce for them but they want to

0:12:54.079,0:12:58.959
do their corporate site too we've we've

0:12:56.720,0:13:00.560
launched a couple with a cloud cms

0:12:58.959,0:13:01.680
uh and then like a static site build

0:13:00.560,0:13:03.519
that builds off of that and making like

0:13:01.680,0:13:06.720
a headless sense

0:13:03.519,0:13:10.720
for uh either live api driven or a

0:13:06.720,0:13:12.320
static site code uh for content sites uh

0:13:10.720,0:13:14.079
i was really in favor of like the

0:13:12.320,0:13:16.079
headless approach for e-commerce for a

0:13:14.079,0:13:20.399
while i still think it holds a lot of

0:13:16.079,0:13:21.839
potential um but it i i i

0:13:20.399,0:13:23.680
backed off a little bit from it just

0:13:21.839,0:13:26.320
feeling like it's it's really not

0:13:23.680,0:13:28.000
mature enough for a lot of a lot of

0:13:26.320,0:13:31.040
customers of ours to use

0:13:28.000,0:13:33.120
so yeah when we talk about custom it's

0:13:31.040,0:13:34.320
you know it's often you know full custom

0:13:33.120,0:13:36.639
you know head to tail

0:13:34.320,0:13:37.360
so it's you know using serverless models

0:13:36.639,0:13:40.160
and

0:13:37.360,0:13:41.600
uh microservices uh so there's no one

0:13:40.160,0:13:44.160
like monolith platform

0:13:41.600,0:13:44.880
um but it's it's uh it's fully custom

0:13:44.160,0:13:46.800
there's no like

0:13:44.880,0:13:48.000
headless still back-end platform that

0:13:46.800,0:13:48.880
we're talking about gotcha so you're

0:13:48.000,0:13:50.720
just using like

0:13:48.880,0:13:52.079
a payment processor like stripe or

0:13:50.720,0:13:52.959
something like that and then you're just

0:13:52.079,0:13:55.519
building out

0:13:52.959,0:13:56.320
like custom custom code right exactly

0:13:55.519,0:13:59.360
yeah yeah

0:13:56.320,0:14:00.720
that's cool what um what are you more

0:13:59.360,0:14:02.399
like what are you enjoying the most what

0:14:00.720,0:14:03.519
are you the most excited about as far as

0:14:02.399,0:14:05.360
the different like projects you're

0:14:03.519,0:14:07.680
working on

0:14:05.360,0:14:08.720
yeah i think um i mean that third

0:14:07.680,0:14:10.480
category is

0:14:08.720,0:14:12.160
particularly interesting to me because

0:14:10.480,0:14:15.519
it's kind of a new territory

0:14:12.160,0:14:17.760
i mean just again personally speaking

0:14:15.519,0:14:19.120
e-commerce a lot of times feels like

0:14:17.760,0:14:21.199
you're reinventing the wheel

0:14:19.120,0:14:22.240
because you know like oh get about

0:14:21.199,0:14:25.680
another product page

0:14:22.240,0:14:28.480
um it looks it looks it looks at least

0:14:25.680,0:14:30.079
10 different than the last one we built

0:14:28.480,0:14:31.519
and of course you know that 10

0:14:30.079,0:14:32.240
difference required means that you can't

0:14:31.519,0:14:34.880
like

0:14:32.240,0:14:36.399
use oh you can reuse some code and we do

0:14:34.880,0:14:39.040
you use code but like

0:14:36.399,0:14:39.839
there's there's that's 10 different

0:14:39.040,0:14:43.760
still requires you

0:14:39.839,0:14:45.760
to rebuild a lot of stuff

0:14:43.760,0:14:47.920
not really accomplishing anything new so

0:14:45.760,0:14:48.720
i think that third category is really

0:14:47.920,0:14:50.959
exciting

0:14:48.720,0:14:52.560
because you get to work on it's still a

0:14:50.959,0:14:53.839
purchase process but you're building

0:14:52.560,0:14:54.959
something that's

0:14:53.839,0:14:57.199
you know really unique to that

0:14:54.959,0:14:58.880
business's needs rather than just

0:14:57.199,0:15:00.399
another iteration of kind of the same

0:14:58.880,0:15:02.240
thing

0:15:00.399,0:15:04.079
and uh what kind of work do you do day

0:15:02.240,0:15:06.560
to day like do you like what

0:15:04.079,0:15:07.680
percentage coding versus like leadership

0:15:06.560,0:15:09.040
i think you're a director

0:15:07.680,0:15:11.199
engineering director or something like

0:15:09.040,0:15:15.360
that yeah yeah so

0:15:11.199,0:15:16.639
i spend with with the exception carved

0:15:15.360,0:15:18.160
out when i you know i intentionally

0:15:16.639,0:15:19.839
carve it out i spend almost no time

0:15:18.160,0:15:22.639
actually coding myself these days

0:15:19.839,0:15:23.279
okay um uh i do spend a fair amount of

0:15:22.639,0:15:26.800
time

0:15:23.279,0:15:29.839
in in code review in

0:15:26.800,0:15:30.720
architectural reviews uh in discovery to

0:15:29.839,0:15:32.240
you know

0:15:30.720,0:15:34.240
fairly even fairly in-depth technical

0:15:32.240,0:15:35.279
discovery with clients dealing with

0:15:34.240,0:15:37.040
what we're going to build how we're

0:15:35.279,0:15:37.680
going to build it um and then reviewing

0:15:37.040,0:15:39.279
and kind of

0:15:37.680,0:15:41.279
evaluating the process as build out to

0:15:39.279,0:15:43.360
make sure that we're building to quality

0:15:41.279,0:15:44.560
so i'm involved pretty pretty deep in

0:15:43.360,0:15:46.079
some of our projects especially our

0:15:44.560,0:15:48.959
flagship projects

0:15:46.079,0:15:50.399
but i'm not hands-on coding and then i'm

0:15:48.959,0:15:51.920
also part of the leadership team for the

0:15:50.399,0:15:53.600
company so there's some element of my

0:15:51.920,0:15:54.720
time that just goes into kind of company

0:15:53.600,0:15:58.240
management overall

0:15:54.720,0:16:01.519
company stuff do you miss coding

0:15:58.240,0:16:04.720
uh i yes to some degree um

0:16:01.519,0:16:07.360
but i i

0:16:04.720,0:16:08.880
i love the solution design part part of

0:16:07.360,0:16:10.160
it and i still get to do that when i'm

0:16:08.880,0:16:14.000
working on the architecture

0:16:10.160,0:16:15.360
so uh it's not so much that i miss

0:16:14.000,0:16:17.040
coaching it's more than i have to

0:16:15.360,0:16:18.480
i have to miss i have to hold myself

0:16:17.040,0:16:19.519
back from it because i know

0:16:18.480,0:16:21.360
there are things that are higher

0:16:19.519,0:16:22.880
leverage for me to work on and sometimes

0:16:21.360,0:16:24.240
if i'm like oh i could just go in and do

0:16:22.880,0:16:27.040
this myself right now

0:16:24.240,0:16:27.519
um that's what i have to resist is yeah

0:16:27.040,0:16:29.199
there's

0:16:27.519,0:16:30.399
not so much missing but just like okay i

0:16:29.199,0:16:31.279
know this isn't the most important thing

0:16:30.399,0:16:34.320
for me to work on

0:16:31.279,0:16:36.000
priorities prioritizing yeah yeah it's

0:16:34.320,0:16:38.160
it's uh development is a weird thing

0:16:36.000,0:16:40.639
where like so much of the time people

0:16:38.160,0:16:42.800
that no longer code actively

0:16:40.639,0:16:44.880
like miss it in this way that i don't

0:16:42.800,0:16:46.560
know if it's the same in like

0:16:44.880,0:16:48.320
other industries like i don't know if

0:16:46.560,0:16:51.839
people that do construction work

0:16:48.320,0:16:51.839
when they become construction managers

0:16:52.720,0:16:56.320
construction work i don't i don't know

0:16:54.880,0:16:57.600
for sure but i would imagine something

0:16:56.320,0:16:59.279
like that would be true though in like

0:16:57.600,0:17:01.519
other creative fields which i mean

0:16:59.279,0:17:03.040
and that's partially what makes it sure

0:17:01.519,0:17:04.640
about development yeah i would imagine

0:17:03.040,0:17:07.280
the designer who becomes an

0:17:04.640,0:17:08.079
executive creative director might maybe

0:17:07.280,0:17:09.919
i don't know for sure

0:17:08.079,0:17:11.280
not one but might miss getting in there

0:17:09.919,0:17:12.559
with photoshop and actually

0:17:11.280,0:17:14.400
uh you know putting something out or

0:17:12.559,0:17:17.919
design out him himself for herself

0:17:14.400,0:17:18.559
yeah i think so um so when it comes to

0:17:17.919,0:17:20.240
uh

0:17:18.559,0:17:23.280
the various you know e-commerce

0:17:20.240,0:17:25.199
platforms uh magento shopify i don't

0:17:23.280,0:17:28.000
know exactly which ones you guys

0:17:25.199,0:17:29.280
work with big commerce those are the two

0:17:28.000,0:17:30.559
main ones we work with ecommerce a

0:17:29.280,0:17:32.480
little bit as well but okay that's the

0:17:30.559,0:17:34.559
lesser

0:17:32.480,0:17:37.120
what are some things that you're excited

0:17:34.559,0:17:39.840
about you know enjoying learning

0:17:37.120,0:17:40.240
uh and or like particular pain points

0:17:39.840,0:17:41.760
with

0:17:40.240,0:17:43.919
you know the different econ platforms

0:17:41.760,0:17:46.640
that you're using

0:17:43.919,0:17:46.960
yeah so i mean i think uh the the ones

0:17:46.640,0:17:50.400
that

0:17:46.960,0:17:52.480
come to mind uh are the the things that

0:17:50.400,0:17:54.640
everyone knows to some degree about the

0:17:52.480,0:17:55.919
platforms but are just you know they

0:17:54.640,0:17:58.799
they come up in your face every single

0:17:55.919,0:18:00.799
day and um for magento that would be

0:17:58.799,0:18:02.320
the great things about it is how it's

0:18:00.799,0:18:04.400
flexible it is and the

0:18:02.320,0:18:05.520
fantastic user community around it um

0:18:04.400,0:18:07.440
for open source

0:18:05.520,0:18:08.720
um the downside is just the sheer

0:18:07.440,0:18:10.559
complexity of it uh

0:18:08.720,0:18:12.400
you know you know i've got people on my

0:18:10.559,0:18:14.000
team who have been you know working with

0:18:12.400,0:18:17.520
it for years i've been working with

0:18:14.000,0:18:18.880
it for years uh i i go back to like

0:18:17.520,0:18:20.400
very early as the magenta one when i

0:18:18.880,0:18:21.360
first started working on it and and i

0:18:20.400,0:18:23.679
still find stuff

0:18:21.360,0:18:25.200
that i'm like wait how did i not know

0:18:23.679,0:18:26.160
this this entire this entire time like

0:18:25.200,0:18:27.679
because i feel like no

0:18:26.160,0:18:29.520
no single person has all of magento in

0:18:27.679,0:18:30.640
their head i mean

0:18:29.520,0:18:32.640
there are probably a few of those you

0:18:30.640,0:18:35.200
know uh magento masters

0:18:32.640,0:18:36.799
like unicorns yeah right right but for

0:18:35.200,0:18:38.160
the most part like just the level of

0:18:36.799,0:18:40.400
complexity there

0:18:38.160,0:18:41.520
can get in your way on the magento side

0:18:40.400,0:18:42.799
on the shopify side you have the

0:18:41.520,0:18:43.840
opposite problem it's like the whole

0:18:42.799,0:18:45.600
wild garden thing

0:18:43.840,0:18:47.679
and yeah you feel like you're twisting

0:18:45.600,0:18:48.880
the platform to do things that it was

0:18:47.679,0:18:50.559
never intended to do

0:18:48.880,0:18:51.919
these things that should be relatively

0:18:50.559,0:18:54.799
straightforward um

0:18:51.919,0:18:55.120
and we've even had clients who kind of i

0:18:54.799,0:18:56.880
mean

0:18:55.120,0:18:57.679
i you know it's not exactly fair but i

0:18:56.880,0:18:59.120
completely understand where they're

0:18:57.679,0:19:01.120
coming from who kind of get mad

0:18:59.120,0:19:03.039
at us they're like you know why is this

0:19:01.120,0:19:05.600
so com why is it so hard

0:19:03.039,0:19:07.039
to do this thing it should be so simple

0:19:05.600,0:19:08.400
the whole promise of shopify is that

0:19:07.039,0:19:09.600
simple and i'm like well it's because

0:19:08.400,0:19:11.520
your needs are just

0:19:09.600,0:19:13.039
this much outside of whatever shopify

0:19:11.520,0:19:15.039
was designed for and

0:19:13.039,0:19:17.039
now you're twisting this like sash

0:19:15.039,0:19:19.360
platform into this you know kind of a

0:19:17.039,0:19:20.400
knot to make it work yeah you're in the

0:19:19.360,0:19:23.039
danger zone of

0:19:20.400,0:19:25.120
customizing too much right yeah it's

0:19:23.039,0:19:28.080
it's uh it's interesting i've been so

0:19:25.120,0:19:29.520
um magento heavy for so long i'm kind of

0:19:28.080,0:19:30.960
starting to like

0:19:29.520,0:19:33.600
poke my head up and look at some of the

0:19:30.960,0:19:35.280
different platforms and

0:19:33.600,0:19:36.960
try to understand them understand the

0:19:35.280,0:19:39.120
different strengths and weaknesses

0:19:36.960,0:19:40.240
and and and jump into the different

0:19:39.120,0:19:41.600
communities as well

0:19:40.240,0:19:43.440
and you know try to really kind of

0:19:41.600,0:19:45.600
understand them a little bit you know

0:19:43.440,0:19:47.120
yeah and i didn't mention the positive

0:19:45.600,0:19:47.440
for shopify but the positive there i

0:19:47.120,0:19:49.120
mean

0:19:47.440,0:19:50.720
is again the flip exact flip side of

0:19:49.120,0:19:52.240
that is is

0:19:50.720,0:19:53.760
i know theoretically you can set up a

0:19:52.240,0:19:55.120
gentle store in like

0:19:53.760,0:19:57.360
you know an hour or something like that

0:19:55.120,0:19:59.039
if you really know what you're doing and

0:19:57.360,0:20:01.200
don't care to customize anything at all

0:19:59.039,0:20:02.799
um but in that same hour you can have a

0:20:01.200,0:20:04.480
shopify store up with a custom theme

0:20:02.799,0:20:05.840
that's been chosen with you know at

0:20:04.480,0:20:06.559
least brand colors that match what you

0:20:05.840,0:20:07.919
want like

0:20:06.559,0:20:10.000
you're not nearly that far along on the

0:20:07.919,0:20:11.520
magento side and so if you're talking

0:20:10.000,0:20:13.520
about a

0:20:11.520,0:20:15.600
smaller company that just needs to get a

0:20:13.520,0:20:17.600
scrappy ecommerce presence up there

0:20:15.600,0:20:18.960
and um you know maybe even running a

0:20:17.600,0:20:20.559
decent sized business but they just they

0:20:18.960,0:20:22.720
just need to get up live quickly

0:20:20.559,0:20:23.840
uh you just can't beat a sas platform

0:20:22.720,0:20:26.480
for that yeah

0:20:23.840,0:20:26.960
yeah have you um have you looked at

0:20:26.480,0:20:29.120
their

0:20:26.960,0:20:30.400
subscriptions like shopify launched the

0:20:29.120,0:20:33.520
new kind of native

0:20:30.400,0:20:35.280
subscription functionality um and i i'd

0:20:33.520,0:20:35.600
seen you respond to some tweets related

0:20:35.280,0:20:38.720
to

0:20:35.600,0:20:40.640
to the subscription stuff yeah i've i've

0:20:38.720,0:20:42.080
been eagerly awaiting that because

0:20:40.640,0:20:44.080
uh every time that we have a client that

0:20:42.080,0:20:47.360
comes on board uh

0:20:44.080,0:20:49.360
who uh needs subscriptions um i'm like

0:20:47.360,0:20:51.120
uh do we do we tell them to hold out

0:20:49.360,0:20:51.520
just a little bit longer for this uh you

0:20:51.120,0:20:53.760
know

0:20:51.520,0:20:55.760
golden day of you know native magento or

0:20:53.760,0:20:59.679
not magenta shopify subscriptions

0:20:55.760,0:21:01.840
um and uh we really

0:20:59.679,0:21:03.039
have have upton now always pushed

0:21:01.840,0:21:05.840
everyone toward

0:21:03.039,0:21:07.120
uh we experimented with a few options

0:21:05.840,0:21:08.480
recurring was the one that we kind of

0:21:07.120,0:21:10.720
number currently um

0:21:08.480,0:21:12.640
we use that outside of shopify uh

0:21:10.720,0:21:15.760
recharge is the one that we

0:21:12.640,0:21:16.640
really that's a big one i see a lot of

0:21:15.760,0:21:19.360
people

0:21:16.640,0:21:20.080
running into issues with recharge and

0:21:19.360,0:21:21.919
like

0:21:20.080,0:21:24.000
i see a lot of people post on that about

0:21:21.919,0:21:27.200
three recharge recharge has

0:21:24.000,0:21:28.720
you know has challenges uh without

0:21:27.200,0:21:29.840
naming names we've used some of their

0:21:28.720,0:21:32.880
competitors and they're

0:21:29.840,0:21:32.880
worse so okay

0:21:33.039,0:21:37.679
it's like the thing is before i

0:21:36.480,0:21:39.039
first workshop subscriptions for the

0:21:37.679,0:21:40.400
first time i'm like oh you know how hard

0:21:39.039,0:21:41.120
can it be you just charge them somebody

0:21:40.400,0:21:44.400
every month

0:21:41.120,0:21:45.679
like i really don't know how to explain

0:21:44.400,0:21:46.720
to someone who hasn't literally written

0:21:45.679,0:21:49.039
subscription code

0:21:46.720,0:21:50.480
how complex and thorny this gets like it

0:21:49.039,0:21:51.520
doesn't just it doesn't seem like it

0:21:50.480,0:21:54.000
should be that bad

0:21:51.520,0:21:55.919
but it is is a naughty problem when you

0:21:54.000,0:21:57.200
get into all the nuances and edge cases

0:21:55.919,0:21:59.520
the pause against

0:21:57.200,0:22:01.360
you know rescheduling and fixing the

0:21:59.520,0:22:02.880
recharge or uh

0:22:01.360,0:22:05.039
renewal dates like that common day of

0:22:02.880,0:22:06.000
the month like manual overrides and all

0:22:05.039,0:22:07.520
sorts of stuff

0:22:06.000,0:22:09.840
right you know changes in payment

0:22:07.520,0:22:11.679
methods and um dunning to update their

0:22:09.840,0:22:12.559
your credit card information when their

0:22:11.679,0:22:15.919
number changes

0:22:12.559,0:22:17.919
and right it's there's just it's a

0:22:15.919,0:22:19.280
it's like it's like there's like layers

0:22:17.919,0:22:21.360
layers and layers

0:22:19.280,0:22:22.559
yeah yeah and it seems like there's

0:22:21.360,0:22:24.159
still um

0:22:22.559,0:22:25.600
some issues with i haven't worked with

0:22:24.159,0:22:27.200
it too closely but

0:22:25.600,0:22:29.039
um it seems like there's issues with

0:22:27.200,0:22:32.640
with migrating uh

0:22:29.039,0:22:34.000
into the new uh functionality and

0:22:32.640,0:22:35.919
yeah i kind of dropped the lead earlier

0:22:34.000,0:22:39.120
but yeah that's that's the

0:22:35.919,0:22:40.480
you know a lot of our clients

0:22:39.120,0:22:42.159
aren't ready to move to that new

0:22:40.480,0:22:44.799
platform until it's it's

0:22:42.159,0:22:46.240
more clearly tested and ready to go i

0:22:44.799,0:22:48.480
think if we did have

0:22:46.240,0:22:49.520
new new clients uh who were just

0:22:48.480,0:22:50.720
launching a store

0:22:49.520,0:22:52.960
i think we would definitely go with the

0:22:50.720,0:22:54.159
subscription uh

0:22:52.960,0:22:56.559
well actually you really have no choice

0:22:54.159,0:22:58.799
now because uh when when all their

0:22:56.559,0:23:01.039
partners that ran subscriptions through

0:22:58.799,0:23:02.240
uh the you know they were on the app

0:23:01.039,0:23:03.919
store uh

0:23:02.240,0:23:05.600
launch is kind of the same simultaneous

0:23:03.919,0:23:06.880
launch all of their old versions of

0:23:05.600,0:23:08.159
their apps just dropped off the app

0:23:06.880,0:23:09.919
store simultaneously so actually you

0:23:08.159,0:23:12.640
have no choice but to use the new model

0:23:09.919,0:23:13.760
going forward right right but i think

0:23:12.640,0:23:15.039
that's a good thing it's definitely

0:23:13.760,0:23:18.320
better to build on that

0:23:15.039,0:23:18.720
yeah so most of your current um clients

0:23:18.320,0:23:21.200
that are

0:23:18.720,0:23:22.640
doing subscription stuff are on recharge

0:23:21.200,0:23:24.880
do you have any that are on

0:23:22.640,0:23:27.600
um and are most of them on shopify or

0:23:24.880,0:23:30.960
any that are on magento as well

0:23:27.600,0:23:32.559
uh so we do have uh actually one of our

0:23:30.960,0:23:34.320
uh biggest subscription clients is on

0:23:32.559,0:23:37.440
magento and we actually use

0:23:34.320,0:23:38.720
um we don't use a sas uh or external

0:23:37.440,0:23:40.240
like service there

0:23:38.720,0:23:41.840
we actually use the paradox lab

0:23:40.240,0:23:45.039
subscription module um

0:23:41.840,0:23:47.200
which is uh uh fantastic um so

0:23:45.039,0:23:48.159
if you're gonna run subscriptions on on

0:23:47.200,0:23:50.240
magento i

0:23:48.159,0:23:52.640
highly recommend that module it's not a

0:23:50.240,0:23:54.159
cheap module but it's it's totally pays

0:23:52.640,0:23:55.760
for itself off i'm i don't work for

0:23:54.159,0:23:56.720
paradox labs but you know you know this

0:23:55.760,0:23:59.919
is my little uh free

0:23:56.720,0:24:01.840
free advert for them here nice um yeah

0:23:59.919,0:24:03.440
now that you mentioned that now that you

0:24:01.840,0:24:04.880
mentioned i i think i remember seeing

0:24:03.440,0:24:08.320
you guys tweeting about that

0:24:04.880,0:24:09.200
at one point um so is that one a lot

0:24:08.320,0:24:11.440
better than like

0:24:09.200,0:24:13.440
recharge um for different things that

0:24:11.440,0:24:15.760
you need to do

0:24:13.440,0:24:17.600
so i mean it's hard to say because

0:24:15.760,0:24:19.520
they're just they're so different i mean

0:24:17.600,0:24:20.880
one is a module that fits right into

0:24:19.520,0:24:21.840
magento and so there's definitely

0:24:20.880,0:24:23.600
advantages

0:24:21.840,0:24:25.039
to that you can customize and extend the

0:24:23.600,0:24:26.559
behavior however you want that and that

0:24:25.039,0:24:27.279
was really important for this one client

0:24:26.559,0:24:28.240
of ours

0:24:27.279,0:24:30.080
they actually considered going on

0:24:28.240,0:24:31.600
shopify when they were well abandoned

0:24:30.080,0:24:34.880
magento

0:24:31.600,0:24:36.400
um and a number of years ago now we took

0:24:34.880,0:24:38.240
over their site and they re-platformed

0:24:36.400,0:24:39.760
them onto magento 2 and we considered

0:24:38.240,0:24:42.320
shopify for them at that point

0:24:39.760,0:24:43.520
but they they do a lot of really nuanced

0:24:42.320,0:24:45.360
stuff with their subscriptions and they

0:24:43.520,0:24:46.640
want to really fine-tune how it works

0:24:45.360,0:24:48.640
in a way that would have been a

0:24:46.640,0:24:50.480
nightmare to do on any i mean

0:24:48.640,0:24:52.400
even with the new subscriptions platform

0:24:50.480,0:24:54.000
like you want to have fine grain control

0:24:52.400,0:24:55.760
over exactly how it's working

0:24:54.000,0:24:58.480
so that's where magento with the paradox

0:24:55.760,0:25:00.000
labs module is great because we can

0:24:58.480,0:25:01.520
extend and override that behavior

0:25:00.000,0:25:03.440
however we

0:25:01.520,0:25:05.200
at the same time there's an advantage of

0:25:03.440,0:25:07.360
just having a sas

0:25:05.200,0:25:08.880
tool that just does it if you don't even

0:25:07.360,0:25:10.400
need that yeah

0:25:08.880,0:25:12.080
what are some of those things that

0:25:10.400,0:25:13.440
they're doing to really get in there and

0:25:12.080,0:25:16.000
override and do some

0:25:13.440,0:25:17.279
unique things with subscriptions to the

0:25:16.000,0:25:20.720
extent that you can share

0:25:17.279,0:25:23.760
any of that yeah um so

0:25:20.720,0:25:26.880
i'm trying to think of a good example um

0:25:23.760,0:25:28.240
well so one option is and and this has

0:25:26.880,0:25:30.640
improved over time with

0:25:28.240,0:25:32.320
uh the have the sas platforms um though

0:25:30.640,0:25:34.720
it's still not fantastic

0:25:32.320,0:25:35.440
um and it actually changes but um

0:25:34.720,0:25:36.400
actually i mean

0:25:35.440,0:25:39.039
i can see the client the client's

0:25:36.400,0:25:40.640
munchpak um they've uh you know

0:25:39.039,0:25:42.400
we have no ndas let's see the same to

0:25:40.640,0:25:44.960
our client um but uh

0:25:42.400,0:25:45.520
they used to offer a preferences option

0:25:44.960,0:25:46.880
where

0:25:45.520,0:25:48.799
and it's a snack pack like you get like

0:25:46.880,0:25:49.840
a box with snacks delivered for snacks

0:25:48.799,0:25:51.919
from all around the world

0:25:49.840,0:25:53.200
um and uh they're used to they used to

0:25:51.919,0:25:54.080
offer a preferences option right you

0:25:53.200,0:25:57.679
could

0:25:54.080,0:25:57.679
yeah you should yeah go buy munchpak

0:25:57.840,0:26:03.600
um but uh these are a preferences option

0:26:01.919,0:26:04.400
where you could say i want salty snacks

0:26:03.600,0:26:06.320
and i want

0:26:04.400,0:26:07.919
um i don't want fish flavored snacks

0:26:06.320,0:26:08.799
which i mean in other parts of the world

0:26:07.919,0:26:10.080
that seems like weird like for an

0:26:08.799,0:26:12.480
american palette but there are fish

0:26:10.080,0:26:13.120
flavored like chips for example you know

0:26:12.480,0:26:14.400
they're sold

0:26:13.120,0:26:16.320
but like you can say i don't want this

0:26:14.400,0:26:18.720
or i do want this and

0:26:16.320,0:26:19.919
uh being able to keep track of that kind

0:26:18.720,0:26:24.080
of custom options

0:26:19.919,0:26:25.440
um on the subscriptions in the past when

0:26:24.080,0:26:26.960
we were first launching this was kind of

0:26:25.440,0:26:28.960
a weak point for a lot of those

0:26:26.960,0:26:30.000
out of the box or like shopify app based

0:26:28.960,0:26:32.000
subscriptions

0:26:30.000,0:26:34.080
even now it would be a little bit

0:26:32.000,0:26:36.960
trickier for us to include that than

0:26:34.080,0:26:38.799
it was on on magento gotcha so having

0:26:36.960,0:26:41.919
stuff like product option like like

0:26:38.799,0:26:44.480
options on on pro on the product kind of

0:26:41.919,0:26:45.679
object you can do that but i mean really

0:26:44.480,0:26:46.960
that's that's almost a shopify

0:26:45.679,0:26:49.600
limitation intrinsically

0:26:46.960,0:26:50.640
you can do custom options on products

0:26:49.600,0:26:52.720
but

0:26:50.640,0:26:54.640
it's it's all really buried under the

0:26:52.720,0:26:56.080
hood and so there's not a lot of first

0:26:54.640,0:26:59.840
class support for that where it's just

0:26:56.080,0:27:01.600
it's you know just standard with magento

0:26:59.840,0:27:03.120
so this is kind of a random question

0:27:01.600,0:27:04.799
that came up on twitter that i want to

0:27:03.120,0:27:08.320
like just bounce around was this

0:27:04.799,0:27:11.039
this micro services sas thing where like

0:27:08.320,0:27:12.799
um a buddy of mine was asking like like

0:27:11.039,0:27:13.279
an e-commerce store that has a bunch of

0:27:12.799,0:27:15.360
sass

0:27:13.279,0:27:17.200
plug-ins right like we're talking about

0:27:15.360,0:27:18.720
subscriptions you can think of reviews

0:27:17.200,0:27:19.840
you can think of a hundred other types

0:27:18.720,0:27:22.720
of

0:27:19.840,0:27:23.440
and the question is like is that a micro

0:27:22.720,0:27:26.320
services

0:27:23.440,0:27:28.320
architecture um which i think the

0:27:26.320,0:27:30.480
definition of you know microservices

0:27:28.320,0:27:32.559
is that they're highly maintainable

0:27:30.480,0:27:34.399
testable loosely coupled

0:27:32.559,0:27:36.480
independently deployable organized

0:27:34.399,0:27:39.600
around business capabilities

0:27:36.480,0:27:41.360
and owned by a small team so i want to i

0:27:39.600,0:27:42.159
want to bounce this around with you i'm

0:27:41.360,0:27:43.679
curious

0:27:42.159,0:27:45.200
what you think about i think in the i

0:27:43.679,0:27:46.240
think on twitter you said that it was a

0:27:45.200,0:27:49.039
hybrid

0:27:46.240,0:27:50.480
architecture right right and someone and

0:27:49.039,0:27:50.960
i forget who it was replied back and

0:27:50.480,0:27:52.399
followed

0:27:50.960,0:27:54.080
up and said well you know the term for

0:27:52.399,0:27:55.840
that is hub and spoke and actually when

0:27:54.080,0:27:57.360
i first wrote my tweet i was thinking of

0:27:55.840,0:27:57.760
saying oh it's a hubband's book but then

0:27:57.360,0:28:00.399
i

0:27:57.760,0:28:01.840
had googled myself and and i only came

0:28:00.399,0:28:02.559
up because like second guessing is that

0:28:01.840,0:28:04.320
the right term

0:28:02.559,0:28:05.840
um and i only came up with like other

0:28:04.320,0:28:06.720
usages of it so now like i'm not going

0:28:05.840,0:28:09.039
to say that

0:28:06.720,0:28:10.799
i'm just going to say yeah i mean that

0:28:09.039,0:28:13.120
was the favorite algebra

0:28:10.799,0:28:14.480
that sounds right yeah um i think the

0:28:13.120,0:28:16.559
hub and spoke model

0:28:14.480,0:28:17.760
um i mean that that is conceptually you

0:28:16.559,0:28:18.559
know what it is you can still have that

0:28:17.760,0:28:20.720
central

0:28:18.559,0:28:21.840
monolith that's in the middle there um

0:28:20.720,0:28:23.840
but you've

0:28:21.840,0:28:26.320
you've moved out some of the core

0:28:23.840,0:28:29.840
features to an external service

0:28:26.320,0:28:31.520
i think to the degree uh if it breaks

0:28:29.840,0:28:32.559
down it's considering the microservices

0:28:31.520,0:28:34.080
it's to degree that they're actually

0:28:32.559,0:28:35.200
micro because a lot of those external

0:28:34.080,0:28:37.039
services are

0:28:35.200,0:28:38.799
pretty macro in terms of the

0:28:37.039,0:28:40.480
functionality that they have within them

0:28:38.799,0:28:42.720
um but at least you've you've kind of

0:28:40.480,0:28:46.000
moved paradigmatically in

0:28:42.720,0:28:49.360
in that direction yeah so like

0:28:46.000,0:28:51.120
so the hub and spoke uh so so basically

0:28:49.360,0:28:52.399
like a true micro cert like

0:28:51.120,0:28:54.000
i'm trying to think of a canonical

0:28:52.399,0:28:55.600
example of microservices and i keep

0:28:54.000,0:28:58.240
thinking of twitter although i don't

0:28:55.600,0:28:59.360
know if that's exactly a micro services

0:28:58.240,0:29:01.279
but i think of like

0:28:59.360,0:29:03.840
the search service and the messaging

0:29:01.279,0:29:04.720
service i assume that's a micro services

0:29:03.840,0:29:07.120
architecture

0:29:04.720,0:29:08.480
but that's the example i keep i'm not

0:29:07.120,0:29:10.880
sure what their internal

0:29:08.480,0:29:12.799
uh architecture is i know one in the

0:29:10.880,0:29:15.279
e-commerce world one company

0:29:12.799,0:29:17.200
that went crazy i mean i'm gonna be in a

0:29:15.279,0:29:18.880
negative sense but they went like

0:29:17.200,0:29:20.559
full bore in the microservice direction

0:29:18.880,0:29:22.080
was jet.com okay

0:29:20.559,0:29:23.600
i actually had attended a talk with with

0:29:22.080,0:29:26.000
one of their engineers

0:29:23.600,0:29:27.919
like a local meetup okay and i mean they

0:29:26.000,0:29:30.559
they carved everything into

0:29:27.919,0:29:31.520
really small microservices um and you

0:29:30.559,0:29:34.480
know

0:29:31.520,0:29:35.840
and uh you know i i i couldn't name all

0:29:34.480,0:29:36.960
the details there but like i think they

0:29:35.840,0:29:38.559
had like a

0:29:36.960,0:29:40.080
a pricing microservice or even multiple

0:29:38.559,0:29:40.480
pricing microservices depending on like

0:29:40.080,0:29:42.960
what

0:29:40.480,0:29:44.159
the individual need was there and then

0:29:42.960,0:29:45.039
and then you had an inventory

0:29:44.159,0:29:46.080
microservice and

0:29:45.039,0:29:48.320
i mean in some degree that's kind of

0:29:46.080,0:29:48.880
what you see magento going toward with

0:29:48.320,0:29:51.760
all of its

0:29:48.880,0:29:53.039
different uh carving up of modules but

0:29:51.760,0:29:54.080
you know they had done that when

0:29:53.039,0:29:56.159
on the completely their own custom

0:29:54.080,0:29:59.360
platform it wasn't it wasn't

0:29:56.159,0:30:01.600
right right official right

0:29:59.360,0:30:03.440
right and like i think like search for

0:30:01.600,0:30:05.600
example is probably a good example of a

0:30:03.440,0:30:08.399
microservice

0:30:05.600,0:30:09.039
one of the pieces of functionality um

0:30:08.399,0:30:12.080
and like

0:30:09.039,0:30:15.120
that could be pretty that could be a big

0:30:12.080,0:30:18.000
like feature in the sense of it could be

0:30:15.120,0:30:19.360
a lot of code behind that right you

0:30:18.000,0:30:21.120
could have a lot of data you could

0:30:19.360,0:30:24.399
probably even have a decent sized team

0:30:21.120,0:30:27.760
behind that right um so like what like

0:30:24.399,0:30:29.520
is it micro or not like uh you could say

0:30:27.760,0:30:31.120
search is like that's not very micro

0:30:29.520,0:30:31.520
like that's like a d that's a decent

0:30:31.120,0:30:34.000
size

0:30:31.520,0:30:34.640
feature uh right but i feel like that

0:30:34.000,0:30:37.760
would still

0:30:34.640,0:30:40.480
fit into a microservices kind of a model

0:30:37.760,0:30:41.200
um yeah and then like i think i think to

0:30:40.480,0:30:42.640
me

0:30:41.200,0:30:44.559
i mean there is certainly a degree to

0:30:42.640,0:30:45.840
which the volume of code is relevant for

0:30:44.559,0:30:48.480
whether it's a microservice

0:30:45.840,0:30:50.399
but i think a lot of that is almost to

0:30:48.480,0:30:51.520
borrow kind of the object oriented con

0:30:50.399,0:30:53.520
like a principle like a single

0:30:51.520,0:30:56.559
responsibility uh principle

0:30:53.520,0:30:58.320
uh where uh is this is this

0:30:56.559,0:30:59.679
one thing or like to borrow from like a

0:30:58.320,0:31:01.760
domain driven design uh

0:30:59.679,0:31:03.279
model where like is this is this like

0:31:01.760,0:31:05.679
one action or one

0:31:03.279,0:31:07.279
or one uh domain object that you're kind

0:31:05.679,0:31:08.720
of interacting with there or is it

0:31:07.279,0:31:10.559
mixing a whole bunch of different things

0:31:08.720,0:31:12.640
together and

0:31:10.559,0:31:14.159
uh so if you think of like say take

0:31:12.640,0:31:17.200
subscriptions if you take

0:31:14.159,0:31:18.159
something like recharge and in your

0:31:17.200,0:31:19.919
model you're thinking of

0:31:18.159,0:31:21.200
recharge is the micro service well

0:31:19.919,0:31:22.320
recharge is doing a whole bunch of

0:31:21.200,0:31:24.399
things

0:31:22.320,0:31:26.080
and the customers and accounts and and

0:31:24.399,0:31:28.320
orders and invoices

0:31:26.080,0:31:29.840
and so that's you know maybe each of

0:31:28.320,0:31:34.559
those individual things

0:31:29.840,0:31:34.559
are microservices in a sense um but

0:31:34.799,0:31:38.399
i probably would be not great to call

0:31:37.600,0:31:41.120
recur or

0:31:38.399,0:31:41.919
recharge as a whole a microservice a

0:31:41.120,0:31:44.640
microservice

0:31:41.919,0:31:46.880
but then like if you had the um like

0:31:44.640,0:31:50.000
like in the jet example

0:31:46.880,0:31:53.360
um i mean i could imagine

0:31:50.000,0:31:54.960
like your subscription you know

0:31:53.360,0:31:57.440
functionality could be

0:31:54.960,0:31:59.440
a so if if the subscription

0:31:57.440,0:32:01.120
functionality wasn't the micro service

0:31:59.440,0:32:02.720
let's say in the jet.com example

0:32:01.120,0:32:04.720
theoretical example

0:32:02.720,0:32:06.799
how would it break like how would it be

0:32:04.720,0:32:10.279
broken down

0:32:06.799,0:32:13.919
into component parts that were more

0:32:10.279,0:32:16.399
microservicey than the subscriptions

0:32:13.919,0:32:17.840
as a whole well i mean you could for

0:32:16.399,0:32:19.919
example have

0:32:17.840,0:32:21.360
like your literal core subscription

0:32:19.919,0:32:23.679
microservice that

0:32:21.360,0:32:25.600
isn't responsible for keeping track of

0:32:23.679,0:32:28.640
promos or keeping track of accounts

0:32:25.600,0:32:31.840
but literally is responsible for

0:32:28.640,0:32:33.600
handling the the reorders you know just

0:32:31.840,0:32:35.679
the subscription on this date

0:32:33.600,0:32:37.120
on this date it's to do for the next

0:32:35.679,0:32:38.559
renewal of the subscription i'm going to

0:32:37.120,0:32:40.480
go ahead and place that order

0:32:38.559,0:32:42.000
right right and you know i mean if

0:32:40.480,0:32:44.000
that's a service i don't

0:32:42.000,0:32:46.159
you know or is that a background job but

0:32:44.000,0:32:46.880
um just like that that kind of a carving

0:32:46.159,0:32:48.720
off of a

0:32:46.880,0:32:49.919
of a small piece of functionality i

0:32:48.720,0:32:51.360
would say that that's where you would

0:32:49.919,0:32:53.440
you'd want to keep a micro service to

0:32:51.360,0:32:55.440
like that level of scope right

0:32:53.440,0:32:57.360
right yeah i don't know it's just a it's

0:32:55.440,0:32:58.559
it was a random thing that it's stuck in

0:32:57.360,0:33:00.000
my head and i don't know why i keep

0:32:58.559,0:33:01.679
thinking about it i'm not

0:33:00.000,0:33:03.039
like uh i'm not a huge what's the

0:33:01.679,0:33:04.720
technical developers

0:33:03.039,0:33:07.679
love to debate because it's semantics i

0:33:04.720,0:33:07.679
mean like like

0:33:08.840,0:33:12.880
exactly

0:33:10.159,0:33:14.559
you what is the micro service well

0:33:12.880,0:33:16.720
anything larger than a macro service i

0:33:14.559,0:33:16.720
mean

0:33:17.679,0:33:21.519
but is it what is it what the intent of

0:33:20.240,0:33:22.720
microservices was well

0:33:21.519,0:33:24.080
you can almost look like a spectrum

0:33:22.720,0:33:25.440
you're moving that direction but you're

0:33:24.080,0:33:28.080
probably not all the way to

0:33:25.440,0:33:28.960
a proper microservice it's just it's

0:33:28.080,0:33:31.679
funny because

0:33:28.960,0:33:32.640
i i think what stuck out to uh to me

0:33:31.679,0:33:34.480
about it

0:33:32.640,0:33:36.320
was that like i heard a lot of talk

0:33:34.480,0:33:38.240
around microservices kind of in the same

0:33:36.320,0:33:40.159
way we heard about headless it's like

0:33:38.240,0:33:41.760
there's a lot of excitement around it

0:33:40.159,0:33:43.919
maybe from a developer

0:33:41.760,0:33:45.440
uh perspective but then fast forward a

0:33:43.919,0:33:47.679
few years and you go like ah nobody's

0:33:45.440,0:33:50.960
really doing this except for like

0:33:47.679,0:33:53.360
rare cases of like you know companies

0:33:50.960,0:33:54.720
um and then i go wait a minute

0:33:53.360,0:33:56.559
everybody's doing this

0:33:54.720,0:33:58.799
like everybody that is following this

0:33:56.559,0:33:59.600
kind of e-commerce platform and sas

0:33:58.799,0:34:01.360
plugins is

0:33:59.600,0:34:02.559
actually doing this thing that i thought

0:34:01.360,0:34:04.240
was going to happen but then didn't

0:34:02.559,0:34:05.120
really happen but then oh wow it is

0:34:04.240,0:34:07.519
happening

0:34:05.120,0:34:08.240
um i think that was why i kind of like

0:34:07.519,0:34:10.480
you know

0:34:08.240,0:34:12.480
it stuck out and i think even outside of

0:34:10.480,0:34:15.119
like that sas model where you have those

0:34:12.480,0:34:15.599
you know hub and big spokes um worth

0:34:15.119,0:34:17.599
like

0:34:15.599,0:34:19.359
third parties um i think that is the

0:34:17.599,0:34:20.000
approach that you're seeing a lot more

0:34:19.359,0:34:21.919
of even

0:34:20.000,0:34:23.200
for you know boutique you know in

0:34:21.919,0:34:26.079
in-house software

0:34:23.200,0:34:27.040
is something of a monolith that's that's

0:34:26.079,0:34:28.960
still there

0:34:27.040,0:34:30.879
but then micro services that get carved

0:34:28.960,0:34:32.480
off because that particular piece

0:34:30.879,0:34:34.960
makes sense to maintain separately you

0:34:32.480,0:34:38.320
know we need to scale it independently

0:34:34.960,0:34:39.440
or um it's a very domain bounded context

0:34:38.320,0:34:40.320
that we can say look

0:34:39.440,0:34:42.240
we're going to have a team that's

0:34:40.320,0:34:42.639
specific to this who works on this piece

0:34:42.240,0:34:45.919
and

0:34:42.639,0:34:47.520
have a clear api that talks to it

0:34:45.919,0:34:49.119
right but there was definitely a

0:34:47.520,0:34:50.399
microservices craze where it was like

0:34:49.119,0:34:52.560
microservice all the things

0:34:50.399,0:34:54.079
um and that's you know probably was was

0:34:52.560,0:34:55.599
overkill yeah

0:34:54.079,0:34:57.200
and then the other thing i'm trying to

0:34:55.599,0:34:59.680
think about is like are

0:34:57.200,0:35:00.640
those sas services loosely coupled or

0:34:59.680,0:35:03.119
not

0:35:00.640,0:35:04.480
um it's another kind of a semantics

0:35:03.119,0:35:07.119
thing i think a little bit

0:35:04.480,0:35:07.760
what exactly does loosely coupled mean

0:35:07.119,0:35:09.839
like

0:35:07.760,0:35:13.280
in theory could you replace it on the

0:35:09.839,0:35:15.599
fly with nothing at all breaking

0:35:13.280,0:35:16.800
no probably not although in certain

0:35:15.599,0:35:18.560
instances you can

0:35:16.800,0:35:20.720
certain like interfaces for certain

0:35:18.560,0:35:23.839
types of things are pluggable

0:35:20.720,0:35:26.560
um but like in reality even if like

0:35:23.839,0:35:28.320
jet.com had a microservice change like

0:35:26.560,0:35:30.480
most likely things would break

0:35:28.320,0:35:32.720
if something got swapped out with their

0:35:30.480,0:35:34.960
one of their pricing microservices

0:35:32.720,0:35:36.640
like i'd imagine so that's another thing

0:35:34.960,0:35:37.599
i'm i'm trying to think through whether

0:35:36.640,0:35:39.359
or not

0:35:37.599,0:35:40.960
you would consider them loosely coupled

0:35:39.359,0:35:42.320
or not you know

0:35:40.960,0:35:44.400
so i mean like if you think about it in

0:35:42.320,0:35:45.440
like a php sense you're loosely coupling

0:35:44.400,0:35:47.760
depends a lot

0:35:45.440,0:35:48.480
on i mean you can do without this but

0:35:47.760,0:35:49.920
it's greatly

0:35:48.480,0:35:51.760
helped by using something like an

0:35:49.920,0:35:52.960
interface that defines what that

0:35:51.760,0:35:55.440
standard communication

0:35:52.960,0:35:56.800
is it's like the api for that class so

0:35:55.440,0:35:59.760
to some degree

0:35:56.800,0:36:01.119
if you could have an in the sas

0:35:59.760,0:36:03.839
equivalent of a

0:36:01.119,0:36:05.280
interface um that defines like how you

0:36:03.839,0:36:08.160
communicate between two different

0:36:05.280,0:36:09.440
pieces of sas software then those could

0:36:08.160,0:36:10.640
be loosely coupled from each other the

0:36:09.440,0:36:11.680
problem is it doesn't typically exist

0:36:10.640,0:36:13.680
unless you're using like a true

0:36:11.680,0:36:16.720
middleware solution

0:36:13.680,0:36:18.240
so then uh you do end up with tight

0:36:16.720,0:36:18.880
coupling because you're having to call

0:36:18.240,0:36:21.119
the

0:36:18.880,0:36:22.400
other api the other sas servers with the

0:36:21.119,0:36:23.680
idiosyncrasies of their particular

0:36:22.400,0:36:25.119
implementation

0:36:23.680,0:36:26.000
without that interface that says okay

0:36:25.119,0:36:27.599
this is the standard that we're all

0:36:26.000,0:36:29.280
going to abide by

0:36:27.599,0:36:31.200
and i haven't dug into like the new

0:36:29.280,0:36:32.079
shopify subscriptions far enough to know

0:36:31.200,0:36:34.640
100

0:36:32.079,0:36:35.359
for sure how it works but um from what i

0:36:34.640,0:36:36.720
have read

0:36:35.359,0:36:38.160
i think some degree that is part of what

0:36:36.720,0:36:39.280
it's doing i mean part of it is shopify

0:36:38.160,0:36:41.119
is just taking over

0:36:39.280,0:36:42.400
part of the functionality but part of it

0:36:41.119,0:36:44.240
is they are providing this

0:36:42.400,0:36:46.000
standard interface that says okay you

0:36:44.240,0:36:47.359
want to talk to a subscription platform

0:36:46.000,0:36:49.520
here's what the interface looks like and

0:36:47.359,0:36:49.920
whether that platform is is us on our

0:36:49.520,0:36:53.119
own

0:36:49.920,0:36:54.480
or us plus recharge or us plus bold um

0:36:53.119,0:36:56.640
you have that kind of

0:36:54.480,0:36:58.240
interface that allows you to decouple

0:36:56.640,0:37:01.280
your logic a little bit from those

0:36:58.240,0:37:02.880
parties right right what are um like

0:37:01.280,0:37:05.920
what are some of your favorite

0:37:02.880,0:37:08.079
like architectural challenges um

0:37:05.920,0:37:10.640
when it comes to e-commerce just

0:37:08.079,0:37:14.079
generally like what kinds of problems

0:37:10.640,0:37:17.839
are the most fun for you to try to solve

0:37:14.079,0:37:20.960
yeah i think that uh whenever

0:37:17.839,0:37:21.680
you're well fun you know you're gonna

0:37:20.960,0:37:23.839
think fun in

0:37:21.680,0:37:26.640
in two ways like literal fun or literal

0:37:23.839,0:37:28.320
like like oh that's fun

0:37:26.640,0:37:30.320
actually the oh that's fine is the

0:37:28.320,0:37:33.040
easier uh answer

0:37:30.320,0:37:34.720
okay let's go that direction and that's

0:37:33.040,0:37:36.800
that's when you have to deal with like a

0:37:34.720,0:37:38.400
data map between two different systems

0:37:36.800,0:37:39.359
that like handle things under like

0:37:38.400,0:37:41.119
different paradigms

0:37:39.359,0:37:43.920
um we had to integrate with one erp

0:37:41.119,0:37:47.200
where like what they called an invoice

0:37:43.920,0:37:50.400
was what magento called an order

0:37:47.200,0:37:51.359
and they didn't have like or

0:37:50.400,0:37:52.800
what they called an invoice was

0:37:51.359,0:37:53.680
basically what magento called an order

0:37:52.800,0:37:55.280
plus an invoice

0:37:53.680,0:37:56.800
but like even then it wasn't like like

0:37:55.280,0:37:58.320
it's not a one-to-one mapping or not

0:37:56.800,0:38:00.079
even a one to two mapping

0:37:58.320,0:38:01.280
it's like it's like this is oriented

0:38:00.079,0:38:02.400
this way this is oriented this way

0:38:01.280,0:38:02.880
they're like perpendicular to each other

0:38:02.400,0:38:05.040
and you're like

0:38:02.880,0:38:06.240
trying to map it back and forth yeah so

0:38:05.040,0:38:07.680
it's definitely a challenge and so it's

0:38:06.240,0:38:09.839
like it's fun in that you know

0:38:07.680,0:38:11.599
in a sincere sense it's fun to have that

0:38:09.839,0:38:12.960
challenge but it's also like

0:38:11.599,0:38:14.160
you know tearing your hair out at the

0:38:12.960,0:38:16.000
same time because you're trying to

0:38:14.160,0:38:18.160
figure out how to get these systems to

0:38:16.000,0:38:19.119
cooperate in a consistent clear way

0:38:18.160,0:38:22.160
right right right

0:38:19.119,0:38:24.320
but when um circling back a little bit

0:38:22.160,0:38:25.920
too we talked about kind of going remote

0:38:24.320,0:38:27.760
and the team your team and stuff like

0:38:25.920,0:38:29.119
that when it comes to hiring i'm trying

0:38:27.760,0:38:32.560
to do a better job of

0:38:29.119,0:38:34.800
talking about hiring on this uh podcast

0:38:32.560,0:38:35.839
um what are some of the biggest

0:38:34.800,0:38:38.640
challenges that

0:38:35.839,0:38:40.000
you know you're facing um or you know on

0:38:38.640,0:38:41.680
like on the flip side things that are

0:38:40.000,0:38:44.880
working particularly well

0:38:41.680,0:38:48.400
as far as hiring goes for you guys

0:38:44.880,0:38:50.880
yeah so um i we haven't seen

0:38:48.400,0:38:52.160
uh we haven't made our first uh remote

0:38:50.880,0:38:54.880
hire yet

0:38:52.160,0:38:55.359
since we've uh you know gone remote but

0:38:54.880,0:38:56.960
we are

0:38:55.359,0:38:58.960
in an interview process right now for

0:38:56.960,0:39:00.079
several well actually i should say in

0:38:58.960,0:39:01.839
engineering we've actually hired a

0:39:00.079,0:39:04.880
couple of roles outside of engineering

0:39:01.839,0:39:06.480
remote um we have a

0:39:04.880,0:39:08.240
business development representative and

0:39:06.480,0:39:09.440
uh account manager who are now like

0:39:08.240,0:39:11.040
outside of our area

0:39:09.440,0:39:12.400
and so we've had to go that whole

0:39:11.040,0:39:13.520
process fully remote but

0:39:12.400,0:39:15.119
engineering-wise

0:39:13.520,0:39:17.520
we're in the interview process right now

0:39:15.119,0:39:20.640
for several a couple positions but

0:39:17.520,0:39:21.040
i haven't actually made it higher yet i

0:39:20.640,0:39:23.359
think

0:39:21.040,0:39:24.880
that so far it hasn't made a huge

0:39:23.359,0:39:27.119
difference just with it with our

0:39:24.880,0:39:28.480
our process because we always had a very

0:39:27.119,0:39:29.119
streamlined process in the first place

0:39:28.480,0:39:31.599
that was

0:39:29.119,0:39:32.960
like an initial phone screen followed by

0:39:31.599,0:39:34.960
an in-person

0:39:32.960,0:39:36.400
interview that was with a couple people

0:39:34.960,0:39:37.440
on the team um

0:39:36.400,0:39:39.280
and kind of talked through software

0:39:37.440,0:39:40.079
architecture principles and a little bit

0:39:39.280,0:39:42.960
of like

0:39:40.079,0:39:44.320
tech stuff um or tech uh language

0:39:42.960,0:39:46.160
features that kind of thing

0:39:44.320,0:39:47.760
yeah and we've mostly just moved that

0:39:46.160,0:39:49.520
online um and

0:39:47.760,0:39:51.040
uh since we haven't made a hire yet it's

0:39:49.520,0:39:52.079
hard to say exactly whether or not we'll

0:39:51.040,0:39:53.200
look back on it and say oh we should

0:39:52.079,0:39:54.960
have done something differently

0:39:53.200,0:39:56.320
but so far in the hiring process i

0:39:54.960,0:39:58.480
haven't found that

0:39:56.320,0:40:00.079
being over a video screen has made a

0:39:58.480,0:40:02.320
whole lot different than being in person

0:40:00.079,0:40:04.000
for that

0:40:02.320,0:40:05.599
i saw somebody the other day that's

0:40:04.000,0:40:08.960
starting to do like um

0:40:05.599,0:40:10.800
uh like asynchronous video interviews

0:40:08.960,0:40:12.160
um where there's like a platform that

0:40:10.800,0:40:14.319
just lets people

0:40:12.160,0:40:16.480
record a video i guess response to

0:40:14.319,0:40:17.839
standard questions

0:40:16.480,0:40:19.520
i just saw that a couple days ago and i

0:40:17.839,0:40:21.440
thought that was a really cool

0:40:19.520,0:40:24.000
uh way to kind of streamline things you

0:40:21.440,0:40:26.079
know yeah i would say one thing that um

0:40:24.000,0:40:27.440
you know going remote has made us

0:40:26.079,0:40:29.200
it hasn't changed our process but it

0:40:27.440,0:40:29.920
changes what we look for in in the

0:40:29.200,0:40:32.480
candidate

0:40:29.920,0:40:33.760
in the sense that i mean communication

0:40:32.480,0:40:35.119
is is always core i mean it's

0:40:33.760,0:40:37.359
so core that i think it's kind of silly

0:40:35.119,0:40:39.040
when people list that as like a tree on

0:40:37.359,0:40:40.160
like a job listing like oh you

0:40:39.040,0:40:42.160
like you would want someone who doesn't

0:40:40.160,0:40:44.000
communicate like of course um

0:40:42.160,0:40:45.599
but i i do think that communication

0:40:44.000,0:40:47.359
skills are all the more important in a

0:40:45.599,0:40:51.920
remote position

0:40:47.359,0:40:54.000
and so we we have uh you know

0:40:51.920,0:40:55.040
i haven't gone this far yet but i've

0:40:54.000,0:40:56.240
even left something like a writing

0:40:55.040,0:40:57.760
sample it's something that i've

0:40:56.240,0:40:59.920
considered putting in place that

0:40:57.760,0:41:01.280
in the past wasn't as critical because

0:40:59.920,0:41:02.240
if someone wrote something out that

0:41:01.280,0:41:04.079
wasn't as clear

0:41:02.240,0:41:06.960
then we can go talk to them just just

0:41:04.079,0:41:08.640
clarify what they mean but

0:41:06.960,0:41:10.160
with things need to be more asynchronous

0:41:08.640,0:41:11.520
actually having a writing sample

0:41:10.160,0:41:13.599
i think is something that we we may put

0:41:11.520,0:41:15.599
into our process so it's clear

0:41:13.599,0:41:16.960
and yeah i've begun to take that a

0:41:15.599,0:41:18.480
little more informally even when i'm

0:41:16.960,0:41:19.119
looking at like resumes and cover

0:41:18.480,0:41:21.280
letters

0:41:19.119,0:41:22.480
um i've i've never been the sore and i'm

0:41:21.280,0:41:23.119
still not the sort to like throw

0:41:22.480,0:41:24.560
someone's

0:41:23.119,0:41:26.800
application out because they had like

0:41:24.560,0:41:28.640
one typo but whereas i might

0:41:26.800,0:41:30.560
used to have i might have had a little

0:41:28.640,0:41:31.760
more grace with like someone just being

0:41:30.560,0:41:33.599
a little bit unclear

0:41:31.760,0:41:35.280
um now i'm like yeah if you're not if

0:41:33.599,0:41:36.160
you're not clear in terms of what you're

0:41:35.280,0:41:38.319
saying

0:41:36.160,0:41:39.200
in your application that's a bad sign

0:41:38.319,0:41:40.960
for what you're going to be like when

0:41:39.200,0:41:43.680
you're rushing in a hurry later on

0:41:40.960,0:41:45.760
yeah yeah i'm similar like i don't

0:41:43.680,0:41:47.839
there's only a couple typos

0:41:45.760,0:41:49.440
that are like a deal but for some reason

0:41:47.839,0:41:51.280
lowercase i

0:41:49.440,0:41:52.480
in the beginning of a sentence just i

0:41:51.280,0:41:55.119
can't do it but

0:41:52.480,0:41:56.720
other than that like i'm not real picky

0:41:55.119,0:42:00.319
on typos but yeah like

0:41:56.720,0:42:01.599
is the clarity there um for the writing

0:42:00.319,0:42:03.359
sample thing

0:42:01.599,0:42:05.119
as you're thinking through that like

0:42:03.359,0:42:07.760
what type of a

0:42:05.119,0:42:09.520
writing prompt are you leaning towards

0:42:07.760,0:42:12.000
like is it maybe

0:42:09.520,0:42:13.680
uh here's a bug report and how are they

0:42:12.000,0:42:16.160
gonna combination of sort of

0:42:13.680,0:42:17.680
troubleshoot it communicate around it or

0:42:16.160,0:42:19.760
maybe like a feature

0:42:17.680,0:42:22.079
you know some communication around a new

0:42:19.760,0:42:23.839
feature what do you think in there

0:42:22.079,0:42:25.119
so one of the things that i've been kind

0:42:23.839,0:42:26.560
of tossing around in my head and

0:42:25.119,0:42:28.720
probably the direction i'd move forward

0:42:26.560,0:42:30.319
here is um

0:42:28.720,0:42:32.160
and this combines it with another

0:42:30.319,0:42:35.359
benefit is

0:42:32.160,0:42:36.560
having kind of a standard uh feature

0:42:35.359,0:42:38.960
and and essentially having them do a

0:42:36.560,0:42:40.640
code review of that um but doing it in a

0:42:38.960,0:42:41.839
in a in a written format you know in

0:42:40.640,0:42:44.480
you know github or a bit bucket make

0:42:41.839,0:42:47.359
that really easy but

0:42:44.480,0:42:48.640
you know so so but i would probably kind

0:42:47.359,0:42:50.400
of phrase it like

0:42:48.640,0:42:51.760
you know imagine this is a a pull

0:42:50.400,0:42:53.520
request being put in by

0:42:51.760,0:42:55.040
a junior we call them associate

0:42:53.520,0:42:56.560
developer on the team and

0:42:55.040,0:42:58.400
so it's more than just point out the

0:42:56.560,0:43:00.640
issue but kind of explain

0:42:58.400,0:43:02.079
why that needs to be changed um because

0:43:00.640,0:43:03.200
then we're both assessing okay how do

0:43:02.079,0:43:04.480
you evaluate code

0:43:03.200,0:43:06.240
you know how do you recognize where

0:43:04.480,0:43:08.000
there are things that need to be changed

0:43:06.240,0:43:10.160
which is of course a valuable thing but

0:43:08.000,0:43:11.839
then at the same time also

0:43:10.160,0:43:13.520
we can see how they communicate how well

0:43:11.839,0:43:15.119
do they explain themselves

0:43:13.520,0:43:16.880
that's a good idea like communicate it

0:43:15.119,0:43:20.160
and maybe try to

0:43:16.880,0:43:22.000
um like sort of maybe that educate like

0:43:20.160,0:43:23.599
educating the team member kind of

0:43:22.000,0:43:25.760
collaboratively

0:43:23.599,0:43:27.119
maybe not just like hear the things that

0:43:25.760,0:43:28.960
are wrong but like in a

0:43:27.119,0:43:30.240
communicating in a way that's helpful

0:43:28.960,0:43:31.520
yeah right right

0:43:30.240,0:43:32.880
and i mean i think that's good for code

0:43:31.520,0:43:34.319
review in general but i would probably

0:43:32.880,0:43:34.800
give that additional prompt like you

0:43:34.319,0:43:36.480
know

0:43:34.800,0:43:38.000
you know keep in mind this is or think

0:43:36.480,0:43:38.880
of this as being submitted by someone

0:43:38.000,0:43:40.319
who

0:43:38.880,0:43:41.839
is not just appear at your same level of

0:43:40.319,0:43:42.800
seniority and you're just like oh did

0:43:41.839,0:43:45.040
you catch this thing

0:43:42.800,0:43:46.480
like oh okay got it um like they may not

0:43:45.040,0:43:47.920
get what you're saying so kind of walk

0:43:46.480,0:43:49.599
them through it a little bit more

0:43:47.920,0:43:51.280
that's a good that's a i like that it's

0:43:49.599,0:43:52.720
a good idea um

0:43:51.280,0:43:55.599
so there's a non-profit that you

0:43:52.720,0:43:57.520
volunteer for uh redemption housing

0:43:55.599,0:43:59.119
uh which integrates the formerly

0:43:57.520,0:44:00.000
incarcerated back in the life of their

0:43:59.119,0:44:02.079
community

0:44:00.000,0:44:03.599
which i think is really cool that you do

0:44:02.079,0:44:05.839
that and i think i've seen you

0:44:03.599,0:44:07.520
tweet about that a little bit um how's

0:44:05.839,0:44:09.359
how's all that going and

0:44:07.520,0:44:11.200
and what do you do for that um what do

0:44:09.359,0:44:13.760
you do to volunteer there

0:44:11.200,0:44:14.480
yeah so my primary involvement there um

0:44:13.760,0:44:17.280
these days

0:44:14.480,0:44:17.599
is i just serve on the board um i used

0:44:17.280,0:44:19.359
to be

0:44:17.599,0:44:20.800
involved a little bit more hands-on i

0:44:19.359,0:44:22.240
was actually i was

0:44:20.800,0:44:24.079
one of the founding board members of the

0:44:22.240,0:44:25.839
organization back when it first got

0:44:24.079,0:44:27.119
got started and at that point it was

0:44:25.839,0:44:28.160
like all hands on deck to get everything

0:44:27.119,0:44:29.359
done and we're still a small

0:44:28.160,0:44:30.400
organization so that's still true to

0:44:29.359,0:44:32.160
some degree but

0:44:30.400,0:44:34.560
these days i i used to live in philly

0:44:32.160,0:44:37.200
and it's an organization based in philly

0:44:34.560,0:44:38.480
so my personal involvement is more

0:44:37.200,0:44:40.079
maintaining the website and being

0:44:38.480,0:44:43.040
involved on the board

0:44:40.079,0:44:45.119
but the organization's doing great um we

0:44:43.040,0:44:48.640
have um one house up right now

0:44:45.119,0:44:50.079
um where we have um several men who are

0:44:48.640,0:44:52.240
actually just about transition out of

0:44:50.079,0:44:54.240
our program um and uh

0:44:52.240,0:44:55.920
i have been you know we're nearing the

0:44:54.240,0:44:56.800
end of fundraising for opening our

0:44:55.920,0:44:58.960
second house

0:44:56.800,0:45:00.720
um so that we can you know open that up

0:44:58.960,0:45:02.000
and this first house that we have right

0:45:00.720,0:45:04.400
now is for

0:45:02.000,0:45:06.079
uh people who have already been out of

0:45:04.400,0:45:06.880
um prison for a little while and have

0:45:06.079,0:45:08.560
gotten

0:45:06.880,0:45:10.000
their feet under them a little bit um we

0:45:08.560,0:45:11.839
just don't need to just a little bit we

0:45:10.000,0:45:13.359
call it contacting the next step program

0:45:11.839,0:45:15.839
um a little bit more support before

0:45:13.359,0:45:17.920
they're ready to go out on their own

0:45:15.839,0:45:19.040
but our next house is really what our

0:45:17.920,0:45:20.960
vision is for

0:45:19.040,0:45:23.040
um to begin with and that is for those

0:45:20.960,0:45:25.040
who are coming directly out of prison

0:45:23.040,0:45:27.200
and to give them a place where they can

0:45:25.040,0:45:28.720
live with community support but in a

0:45:27.200,0:45:30.160
dignified manner and i think that's

0:45:28.720,0:45:31.760
that's a big piece of it because there

0:45:30.160,0:45:33.280
are frankly there's just not enough

0:45:31.760,0:45:34.000
programs out there that provide housing

0:45:33.280,0:45:35.359
for

0:45:34.000,0:45:37.280
uh or supports in general for people

0:45:35.359,0:45:40.480
coming out of incarceration but

0:45:37.280,0:45:42.000
those that do are often uh strip some of

0:45:40.480,0:45:42.560
the dignity away from the individuals

0:45:42.000,0:45:44.160
and

0:45:42.560,0:45:45.680
we want to really keep that in place for

0:45:44.160,0:45:47.680
them like

0:45:45.680,0:45:49.440
some of the typical like halfway houses

0:45:47.680,0:45:52.000
you mean like yeah so i mean

0:45:49.440,0:45:52.880
yeah like a lot of halfway houses um uh

0:45:52.000,0:45:54.960
there's

0:45:52.880,0:45:56.079
if you talk to the guys who've um you

0:45:54.960,0:45:56.640
know men and women who've been through

0:45:56.079,0:45:58.640
those

0:45:56.640,0:45:59.760
uh uh it will either they either go one

0:45:58.640,0:46:00.720
or two directions either they're so

0:45:59.760,0:46:02.640
permissive and

0:46:00.720,0:46:03.760
anything goes that there's no structure

0:46:02.640,0:46:06.319
at all for someone

0:46:03.760,0:46:07.599
um who you know you know may benefit

0:46:06.319,0:46:08.560
from a little bit of structure and a

0:46:07.599,0:46:10.400
little bit of support

0:46:08.560,0:46:11.760
for getting integrated back into the

0:46:10.400,0:46:14.240
community and

0:46:11.760,0:46:15.359
uh lead to very rapid recidivism because

0:46:14.240,0:46:16.319
there's just nothing to help support

0:46:15.359,0:46:18.079
them at all

0:46:16.319,0:46:19.440
or they go to the level where it's

0:46:18.079,0:46:20.400
basically like being in prison all over

0:46:19.440,0:46:23.440
again with just like

0:46:20.400,0:46:25.200
a little bit you know more freedom and

0:46:23.440,0:46:27.200
we want to and it's you know i'm not

0:46:25.200,0:46:28.720
sure that i can promise we'll always

0:46:27.200,0:46:30.000
be perfect at it but our goal is to

0:46:28.720,0:46:30.880
really walk the line between those two

0:46:30.000,0:46:33.040
approaches where

0:46:30.880,0:46:34.560
you have that dignity of feeling you are

0:46:33.040,0:46:35.680
a free person you're not you're not

0:46:34.560,0:46:38.400
still back in prison

0:46:35.680,0:46:39.920
um but giving them uh the holistic

0:46:38.400,0:46:41.599
support wrap around the services that

0:46:39.920,0:46:45.359
they need to

0:46:41.599,0:46:47.280
to to do well and you know to get uh

0:46:45.359,0:46:49.839
you know from as as our director likes

0:46:47.280,0:46:51.119
to say going from mass incarceration to

0:46:49.839,0:46:53.680
mass reintegration

0:46:51.119,0:46:54.319
um back into into the communities and

0:46:53.680,0:46:56.000
neighborhoods

0:46:54.319,0:46:58.079
that's awesome man how did you how did

0:46:56.000,0:46:59.920
you get involved with that like what was

0:46:58.079,0:47:02.319
the impetus for you

0:46:59.920,0:47:04.240
initially yeah so so i've have i had

0:47:02.319,0:47:05.440
kind of i have an interesting background

0:47:04.240,0:47:07.200
from

0:47:05.440,0:47:09.280
my development and professional career

0:47:07.200,0:47:11.599
has kind of been in parallel with a

0:47:09.280,0:47:13.839
non-profit and career i actually

0:47:11.599,0:47:17.520
graduated from from uh seminary as well

0:47:13.839,0:47:20.400
i saw that yeah m div yeah

0:47:17.520,0:47:21.599
and while i was working on my degree i

0:47:20.400,0:47:24.960
was an intern at a church

0:47:21.599,0:47:26.720
and one of the fellow interns uh

0:47:24.960,0:47:28.319
had this idea for redemption housing

0:47:26.720,0:47:30.160
back um while we were there

0:47:28.319,0:47:31.839
but he wasn't ready to get it started um

0:47:30.160,0:47:33.200
we both graduated moved on

0:47:31.839,0:47:35.680
uh he was in working for the city of

0:47:33.200,0:47:36.880
philadelphia or actually no not not yet

0:47:35.680,0:47:39.200
at that point he was working

0:47:36.880,0:47:40.240
um for a like a rescue mission like

0:47:39.200,0:47:42.880
homeless shelter

0:47:40.240,0:47:44.240
um um but that was just general it

0:47:42.880,0:47:45.599
wasn't specifically to the

0:47:44.240,0:47:47.520
for the formerly incarcerated in any

0:47:45.599,0:47:49.040
sense um but reached back out and said

0:47:47.520,0:47:50.720
you know hey i'd like to get this thing

0:47:49.040,0:47:53.839
started that we talked about back

0:47:50.720,0:47:54.960
um you know years ago and i said yeah

0:47:53.839,0:47:58.240
i'm on board so

0:47:54.960,0:47:59.440
you know we uh we and a few others you

0:47:58.240,0:48:00.160
know kind of got it off the ground in

0:47:59.440,0:48:03.200
the first place

0:48:00.160,0:48:04.960
and it's you know i wouldn't say it's in

0:48:03.200,0:48:07.119
rapid growth but um it's been growing

0:48:04.960,0:48:09.040
and it's a it's a steady

0:48:07.119,0:48:11.040
healthy organization so excited about

0:48:09.040,0:48:12.480
that it's really cool man it's a really

0:48:11.040,0:48:12.800
it's a really neat thing to do there's a

0:48:12.480,0:48:16.240
lot

0:48:12.800,0:48:18.319
in the news you know related to um

0:48:16.240,0:48:20.000
you know incarceration and and

0:48:18.319,0:48:22.960
especially like for drug

0:48:20.000,0:48:24.079
low level uh drug offenses and stuff

0:48:22.960,0:48:26.720
like that and

0:48:24.079,0:48:28.480
and um i mean you're actually working at

0:48:26.720,0:48:29.119
it on the ground which is amazing you

0:48:28.480,0:48:32.880
know

0:48:29.119,0:48:34.559
yeah yeah yeah and actually um

0:48:32.880,0:48:36.559
that the overall attention in the in the

0:48:34.559,0:48:38.800
media has actually helped like we

0:48:36.559,0:48:39.839
um we were very grateful to our donors

0:48:38.800,0:48:41.760
there because

0:48:39.839,0:48:42.880
we actually have had one of our best

0:48:41.760,0:48:46.960
financial years

0:48:42.880,0:48:48.720
this year uh in the midst of combat um

0:48:46.960,0:48:49.839
uh because i think partially because of

0:48:48.720,0:48:50.800
a lot of the attention that's been in

0:48:49.839,0:48:52.480
the media that's been

0:48:50.800,0:48:53.839
helpful to the the real issues that are

0:48:52.480,0:48:55.680
out there um but has

0:48:53.839,0:48:57.040
has given us a big boost toward that

0:48:55.680,0:48:59.440
that fundraising for the second house

0:48:57.040,0:49:00.240
that's amazing man and i'd imagine most

0:48:59.440,0:49:02.000
uh

0:49:00.240,0:49:03.520
charity contributions have got to be

0:49:02.000,0:49:06.480
down during

0:49:03.520,0:49:07.760
absolutely yeah yeah so we're we're kind

0:49:06.480,0:49:09.839
of one of the exceptions there

0:49:07.760,0:49:11.839
that's great man that's really cool um

0:49:09.839,0:49:14.000
that should do that

0:49:11.839,0:49:15.520
awesome man well it was a lot of fun uh

0:49:14.000,0:49:17.599
getting a chance to chat with you

0:49:15.520,0:49:19.680
um where is the best place for people to

0:49:17.599,0:49:22.800
find you online

0:49:19.680,0:49:25.040
um so me personally twitter is my

0:49:22.800,0:49:27.520
primary uh place of engagement there so

0:49:25.040,0:49:28.559
i'm the the scottish b which sounds like

0:49:27.520,0:49:29.839
super pompous but

0:49:28.559,0:49:31.280
it was literally all the other

0:49:29.839,0:49:32.240
variations of my name were taken by time

0:49:31.280,0:49:33.839
i got on twitter so

0:49:32.240,0:49:38.800
it's hard yeah it's hard it's hard to

0:49:33.839,0:49:38.800
find a handle these days