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#90 Interview With Scott Buchanan, Director of Engineering at End-To-End Ecommerce Agency Ripen

Scott Buchanan is the Director of Engineering at Ripen - specializing in commerce and producing excellent products that benefit everyone they touch. He serves on the board of directors for Redemption Housing, integrating the formerly incarcerated back into the life of their community.

Transcript
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that's kind of the third area that we're

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actually getting more and more into

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is uh just truly custom e-commerce

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uh where their business model is not a

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standard

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like we're gonna buy a widget and ship

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it to your house

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and uh so we're kind of expanding the

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idea of e-commerce a little more broadly

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and building solutions that don't fit on

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any e-commerce framework

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[Music]

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scott how you doing sir i'm doing well

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how about you

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not too bad not too bad it's a little uh

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a little cloudy a little overcast

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today so the weather has been like a lot

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nicer than usual well it's a lot

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like a lot warmer um like last year

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around like halloween it was just like

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freezing it was like 30 degrees

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so i'm kind of riding this this wave out

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as

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as long as you can it was uh 70

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up here uh actually it was almost 80

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over the weekend here in new jersey

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which is just you don't get that in

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in right in november so right right

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right

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went out and took a good walk outside

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nice nice yeah it seems like that's

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i i have a buddy in michigan it was also

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like it was like

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warmer than usual so i guess it's like

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the whole country

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so um so how's everything going during

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covid how what are you doing to stay

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sane hopefully you are staying sane

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um yeah how's it going yeah uh

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thankfully

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um you know we've been doing pretty well

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uh you know kind of hunkered down into

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our

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our little island here um thankfully

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you know more recently things opened

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back up so i think they're going to

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close back down again so

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we're able to carefully you know step

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out but

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personally it hasn't been too bad for us

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i know a lot of people have been

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infected pretty badly but thankfully

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at least this is from my family and um

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for our company it's not been

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it's not been too bad yeah yeah that's

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good man um

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and have you worked remotely do you work

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remotely or have you worked remotely for

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a while yeah

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yeah so we were actually before covet

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hit we were putting together a plan

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to start going remote um we had

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uh because we we had actually a really

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strong in-office culture for a long time

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um and had made our first foray into

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hiring remotely i think

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uh almost about a year ago so it was

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like september of last

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of 2019 um and uh it

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it didn't work out that well i think we

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just didn't have the processes in place

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to support it

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um and it was only a contract like

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temporary contract so it wasn't you know

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a huge

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issue but like was actually someone who

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she did great work and we would have

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liked to bring her on uh permanently

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um but she kind of said no to us and i

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think it was partially because we didn't

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really support her very well and so it

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wasn't a very good

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relationship so we took a step back from

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that and said okay let's actually

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get some processes in place that would

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let us do remote work well

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and originally it was going to kind of a

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hybrid model but then covet hit and it

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would just accelerate all of our plans

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but what we did then is we have now

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officially said okay we're going to go

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remote

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permanently um and uh you know we

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actually left our lease in our office

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and

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oh wow are not now officially fully

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remote even

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when everything's gonna open back up

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fully yeah man i think a lot of

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companies are going through that

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transition um what are what are some of

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the um

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and i think i think everybody goes

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through that transition where you kind

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of try it

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but it's not fully baked and it's you

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know it's kind of awkward and stuff like

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that

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um what are some of the things you're

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thinking about or you know processes

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you're trying to

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get into place to make it work yeah so i

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mean the issues that we ran into in the

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first place were more

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around um communication and culture in

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term

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just i think that this freelancer

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contractor we had

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hired she felt disconnected she wasn't

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she didn't feel like part of the team

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we kind of pushed a project over to her

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and i would check in with slack

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uh you know and so it's probably that

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that was probably on me personally i

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wasn't

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communicating with her as much as we i

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could have but again the culture for the

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whole company would revolve around the

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office we could see each other around

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and

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check in with each other there a lot a

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lot of informal check-ins

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um and so you know she didn't have that

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so part of our

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vision initially before kova that we

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were trying to fix

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was you know how how do we incorporate

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remote people

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almost into the office like how do we

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bring that culture into the office or

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push everything even in the office

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remote so that there's kind of 11

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level playing field

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thankfully once everyone did go remote

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that kind of forced some of that issue i

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mean there's definitely still a cultural

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thing you've got to deal with i'd say

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the bigger challenges once we did a

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remote were all the logistical things

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you know we had we had a health

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insurance plan that only supported

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people in new jersey so if you watch you

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want to hire remotely you know now we've

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got to change health insurance

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like we have we had an it provider who

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like did like like just help desk type

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support

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who you know was really only set up for

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doing local uh help desk stuff so we had

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to figure out how to do it support

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remotely so

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it's just those little logistical stuff

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that what did you do with healthcare i

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know healthcare is is

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complicated a lot of people struggle

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with it was there a

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provider that you found that was just

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great like across the us

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uh we already were using paychecks for

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um just to handling our

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paycheck processing um but we were

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our health insurance plan was purchased

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directly by our company

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what we did was we did go ahead and

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switch to paychecks as peo program

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um and because their peo program is

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national their healthcare plan is also

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national

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um so then we were able to uh you know

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offer it through that peo

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nice and then like as far as other stuff

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like

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like where like what uh what tools are

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using

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slack are you are you relying more

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heavily on like

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writing stuff down in jira ticketing

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that kind of stuff like

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what type of stuff are y'all doing yeah

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we've had a

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reasonably strong i wouldn't say super

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strong but a reasonably strong culture

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of writing things down in the first

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place so

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that that helped us we didn't really

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have to transition a whole lot there

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but we were already using slack but

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obviously

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one of the big differences well the

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development team used slack very

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regularly

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but we were kind and technically it was

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rolled out to the whole company but a

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lot of other teams especially our

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creative team they know they love

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talking to each other in person

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um so there's kind of like this silo of

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development from the whole rest of the

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company

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but uh with going remote now slack is

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where everybody

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lives and so there's just a lot more

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volume going through there

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right slack definitely has its downsides

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as far as uh

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kind of effect on communication um but

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for the most part it's worked pretty

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well for us

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right right the universal slack

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notification

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sound just popping up all over the all

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day long and stuff like that

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yeah um one of the things i mean i

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personally do and this isn't a company

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thing but i actually turned off those

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notifications because

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uh i actually i i was i haven't gone as

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far as you i think you like

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schedule out your day like crazy like

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you know like i said you know

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we were just on twitter dms last night

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and you said oh i checked my email in

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the morning

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um and i remember on twitter when you

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were first talking about kind of putting

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that in place

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i don't go that far but yeah i was like

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partially inspired by that

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i kind of was already doing it but i

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went further this direction basically

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all notifications turned off everywhere

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i still check it a lot more frequently i

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think that probably you do right slack

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or email babysitter but at least it's

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not popping up in my face

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uh it distracts me when i'm trying to

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work on something else yeah

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have you you know it's interesting like

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you you mentioned it's not like a

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company policy necessarily

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that's one of the things i think about

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is like how do you roll those things out

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across the company where it's like

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you want to tell people like hey you

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know protect your time

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try not to get so distracted by all the

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notifications but at the same time

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it might not necessarily be a official

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company policy of turning your

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notifications off you know

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yeah so one thing that we've been

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playing with we haven't actually done

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this yet

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um so you know hi anybody from like a

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team who's actually going to listen to

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this

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but we've actually thought about putting

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surprise

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yeah we've we've thought about putting

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together

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and this is like sounds way more rigid

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than it would actually be like almost an

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sla by communication method just as a

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guideline for expectation

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um you know if someone texts you like

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that's like a p1 and so

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the only way i would contact someone on

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my team like off hours if i needed

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like you know p1 emergency major client

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sites down or something

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is i'm going to text them personally

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yeah because i'm not expecting them to

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look at slack

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off hours um and uh

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and so like and then it's like slack is

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probably one level down from that email

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and just kind of set an expectation that

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way of saying

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you know email if you get back to me

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that same day or the next day

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that's fine uh you know no need to

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respond immediately to that

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slack i don't know what what it is but

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maybe within within an hour or two

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you know just kind of setting some

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expectations there i think will be

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helpful um

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we that was actually part of our initial

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plan when we went remote to roll that

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out but there was just so much to do we

0:08:58.320,0:09:03.519
didn't actually get that out yet but

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nice yeah i love that idea like

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yeah i love that idea like sla is by

0:09:05.839,0:09:10.480
communication channel because it's like

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for some people email is immediate it's

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like respond within minutes

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uh i think there's a general expectation

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that it's like

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like you said a day or so ish um whereas

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other channels i think you wanna

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you know get to them more quickly um so

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the company workforce ripen ripen

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digital

0:09:27.200,0:09:32.080
um and uh it's just right there but

0:09:30.320,0:09:34.240
right i'm sorry we do digital stuff

0:09:32.080,0:09:34.240
though

0:09:34.800,0:09:38.000
so what uh what do you guys kind of

0:09:36.480,0:09:39.760
specialize in i know you're obviously in

0:09:38.000,0:09:41.200
the e-commerce space and

0:09:39.760,0:09:43.760
uh stuff like that but what do you guys

0:09:41.200,0:09:47.040
specialize in what makes you guys unique

0:09:43.760,0:09:48.560
yeah so um we we were very generalist

0:09:47.040,0:09:49.920
for a long time and we still

0:09:48.560,0:09:52.560
are generalist in the sense that we

0:09:49.920,0:09:55.519
would take on e-commerce projects of

0:09:52.560,0:09:56.240
of pretty much any shape or size we

0:09:55.519,0:09:58.000
really don't

0:09:56.240,0:09:59.760
or try to stay as much as possible from

0:09:58.000,0:10:00.640
anything that's not truly e-commerce

0:09:59.760,0:10:02.880
related

0:10:00.640,0:10:04.720
but i would say kind of over the last

0:10:02.880,0:10:05.440
couple of years like three main areas

0:10:04.720,0:10:07.279
have

0:10:05.440,0:10:09.680
evolved as particular strength areas for

0:10:07.279,0:10:12.640
us um you know one one of those

0:10:09.680,0:10:14.000
is really content-led design so we we

0:10:12.640,0:10:16.079
have a full content studio

0:10:14.000,0:10:18.480
in-house a video studio a photography

0:10:16.079,0:10:21.120
studio um we can use really high-end

0:10:18.480,0:10:22.160
uh uh content work there so when it

0:10:21.120,0:10:24.320
comes to

0:10:22.160,0:10:25.440
uh like d2c brands that want to have a

0:10:24.320,0:10:28.480
really content-led

0:10:25.440,0:10:30.000
uh approach to their site um in

0:10:28.480,0:10:31.360
those cases the dev team almost you know

0:10:30.000,0:10:32.880
we still are involved but we almost

0:10:31.360,0:10:35.120
received into the background and it's

0:10:32.880,0:10:36.560
it's really our designers uh working

0:10:35.120,0:10:38.320
with page builders but

0:10:36.560,0:10:40.240
doing a really like heavy content driven

0:10:38.320,0:10:41.760
approach

0:10:40.240,0:10:42.880
kind of on the far opposite side of the

0:10:41.760,0:10:43.519
spectrum are kind of our other two

0:10:42.880,0:10:45.920
strengths

0:10:43.519,0:10:47.279
that are much more engineering-led one

0:10:45.920,0:10:50.399
is we've we've built

0:10:47.279,0:10:52.800
a in in-house uh

0:10:50.399,0:10:54.880
product that connects magento with

0:10:52.800,0:10:58.959
profit 21 which is an epicore

0:10:54.880,0:11:01.279
erp and we've been rolling that out to

0:10:58.959,0:11:03.120
a number of clients now it's an

0:11:01.279,0:11:06.800
interesting space because

0:11:03.120,0:11:08.800
the the property 21 erp is specifically

0:11:06.800,0:11:11.360
sold to distributors and wholesalers

0:11:08.800,0:11:12.640
or not exclusively but largely so a lot

0:11:11.360,0:11:15.600
of these

0:11:12.640,0:11:16.959
businesses are doing dual b2b and b2c

0:11:15.600,0:11:19.279
channels simultaneously

0:11:16.959,0:11:21.279
um so they need to straddle the line of

0:11:19.279,0:11:22.480
of both of those sorts of functionality

0:11:21.279,0:11:24.640
um so that's been an interesting

0:11:22.480,0:11:26.720
challenge to work on

0:11:24.640,0:11:28.320
that's kind of the third area that we're

0:11:26.720,0:11:31.440
actually getting more and more into

0:11:28.320,0:11:34.640
is uh just truly custom e-commerce

0:11:31.440,0:11:35.440
uh where their business model is not a

0:11:34.640,0:11:37.120
standard

0:11:35.440,0:11:38.720
like we're gonna buy a widget and ship

0:11:37.120,0:11:40.399
it to your house um

0:11:38.720,0:11:42.000
and uh so we're kind of expanding the

0:11:40.399,0:11:44.079
idea of e-commerce a little more broadly

0:11:42.000,0:11:45.839
and building solutions that don't fit on

0:11:44.079,0:11:47.440
any e-commerce framework so

0:11:45.839,0:11:48.880
um we work with one company that's like

0:11:47.440,0:11:50.560
a medical alerts company

0:11:48.880,0:11:52.800
uh that sells like service like

0:11:50.560,0:11:54.639
dependents for uh for seniors

0:11:52.800,0:11:56.160
um and so the whole purchasing process

0:11:54.639,0:11:57.200
for that that one's a little bit more

0:11:56.160,0:11:58.880
standard but still there's like a

0:11:57.200,0:12:00.000
subscription plan like a sas plan that

0:11:58.880,0:12:02.399
goes behind that

0:12:00.000,0:12:03.600
um working with the telehealth company

0:12:02.399,0:12:05.680
right now to sell

0:12:03.600,0:12:07.839
uh to kind of build the whole like front

0:12:05.680,0:12:10.560
end purchasing process for

0:12:07.839,0:12:10.880
doctors practices to you know purchase a

0:12:10.560,0:12:14.000
a

0:12:10.880,0:12:15.040
telehealth um product so we've you know

0:12:14.000,0:12:16.720
kind of some interesting

0:12:15.040,0:12:18.240
projects along those lines as well

0:12:16.720,0:12:20.639
that's interesting man you're hitting

0:12:18.240,0:12:23.040
like all of the like so many of the

0:12:20.639,0:12:24.800
important trends right now like b2b

0:12:23.040,0:12:26.320
like like content driven stuff

0:12:24.800,0:12:28.480
experiential stuff

0:12:26.320,0:12:30.240
and then like it sounds like headless

0:12:28.480,0:12:31.680
maybe you're like you know ecommerce is

0:12:30.240,0:12:33.920
just super custom

0:12:31.680,0:12:35.519
um which i'd say are like three of the

0:12:33.920,0:12:37.120
strongest trends

0:12:35.519,0:12:39.279
uh in e-commerce right now so that's

0:12:37.120,0:12:40.959
that's pretty interesting

0:12:39.279,0:12:42.560
we've explored headless uh we've

0:12:40.959,0:12:44.480
actually built we haven't actually

0:12:42.560,0:12:45.760
launched a headless e-commerce site yet

0:12:44.480,0:12:48.160
we've launched a number of headless

0:12:45.760,0:12:50.000
uh sites that are i say we stick to

0:12:48.160,0:12:51.519
e-commerce we'll occasionally take on a

0:12:50.000,0:12:52.720
content site if it kind of comes along

0:12:51.519,0:12:54.079
with a client who's we're doing

0:12:52.720,0:12:56.720
e-commerce for them but they want to

0:12:54.079,0:12:58.959
do their corporate site too we've we've

0:12:56.720,0:13:00.560
launched a couple with a cloud cms

0:12:58.959,0:13:01.680
uh and then like a static site build

0:13:00.560,0:13:03.519
that builds off of that and making like

0:13:01.680,0:13:06.720
a headless sense

0:13:03.519,0:13:10.720
for uh either live api driven or a

0:13:06.720,0:13:12.320
static site code uh for content sites uh

0:13:10.720,0:13:14.079
i was really in favor of like the

0:13:12.320,0:13:16.079
headless approach for e-commerce for a

0:13:14.079,0:13:20.399
while i still think it holds a lot of

0:13:16.079,0:13:21.839
potential um but it i i i

0:13:20.399,0:13:23.680
backed off a little bit from it just

0:13:21.839,0:13:26.320
feeling like it's it's really not

0:13:23.680,0:13:28.000
mature enough for a lot of a lot of

0:13:26.320,0:13:31.040
customers of ours to use

0:13:28.000,0:13:33.120
so yeah when we talk about custom it's

0:13:31.040,0:13:34.320
you know it's often you know full custom

0:13:33.120,0:13:36.639
you know head to tail

0:13:34.320,0:13:37.360
so it's you know using serverless models

0:13:36.639,0:13:40.160
and

0:13:37.360,0:13:41.600
uh microservices uh so there's no one

0:13:40.160,0:13:44.160
like monolith platform

0:13:41.600,0:13:44.880
um but it's it's uh it's fully custom

0:13:44.160,0:13:46.800
there's no like

0:13:44.880,0:13:48.000
headless still back-end platform that

0:13:46.800,0:13:48.880
we're talking about gotcha so you're

0:13:48.000,0:13:50.720
just using like

0:13:48.880,0:13:52.079
a payment processor like stripe or

0:13:50.720,0:13:52.959
something like that and then you're just

0:13:52.079,0:13:55.519
building out

0:13:52.959,0:13:56.320
like custom custom code right exactly

0:13:55.519,0:13:59.360
yeah yeah

0:13:56.320,0:14:00.720
that's cool what um what are you more

0:13:59.360,0:14:02.399
like what are you enjoying the most what

0:14:00.720,0:14:03.519
are you the most excited about as far as

0:14:02.399,0:14:05.360
the different like projects you're

0:14:03.519,0:14:07.680
working on

0:14:05.360,0:14:08.720
yeah i think um i mean that third

0:14:07.680,0:14:10.480
category is

0:14:08.720,0:14:12.160
particularly interesting to me because

0:14:10.480,0:14:15.519
it's kind of a new territory

0:14:12.160,0:14:17.760
i mean just again personally speaking

0:14:15.519,0:14:19.120
e-commerce a lot of times feels like

0:14:17.760,0:14:21.199
you're reinventing the wheel

0:14:19.120,0:14:22.240
because you know like oh get about

0:14:21.199,0:14:25.680
another product page

0:14:22.240,0:14:28.480
um it looks it looks it looks at least

0:14:25.680,0:14:30.079
10 different than the last one we built

0:14:28.480,0:14:31.519
and of course you know that 10

0:14:30.079,0:14:32.240
difference required means that you can't

0:14:31.519,0:14:34.880
like

0:14:32.240,0:14:36.399
use oh you can reuse some code and we do

0:14:34.880,0:14:39.040
you use code but like

0:14:36.399,0:14:39.839
there's there's that's 10 different

0:14:39.040,0:14:43.760
still requires you

0:14:39.839,0:14:45.760
to rebuild a lot of stuff

0:14:43.760,0:14:47.920
not really accomplishing anything new so

0:14:45.760,0:14:48.720
i think that third category is really

0:14:47.920,0:14:50.959
exciting

0:14:48.720,0:14:52.560
because you get to work on it's still a

0:14:50.959,0:14:53.839
purchase process but you're building

0:14:52.560,0:14:54.959
something that's

0:14:53.839,0:14:57.199
you know really unique to that

0:14:54.959,0:14:58.880
business's needs rather than just

0:14:57.199,0:15:00.399
another iteration of kind of the same

0:14:58.880,0:15:02.240
thing

0:15:00.399,0:15:04.079
and uh what kind of work do you do day

0:15:02.240,0:15:06.560
to day like do you like what

0:15:04.079,0:15:07.680
percentage coding versus like leadership

0:15:06.560,0:15:09.040
i think you're a director

0:15:07.680,0:15:11.199
engineering director or something like

0:15:09.040,0:15:15.360
that yeah yeah so

0:15:11.199,0:15:16.639
i spend with with the exception carved

0:15:15.360,0:15:18.160
out when i you know i intentionally

0:15:16.639,0:15:19.839
carve it out i spend almost no time

0:15:18.160,0:15:22.639
actually coding myself these days

0:15:19.839,0:15:23.279
okay um uh i do spend a fair amount of

0:15:22.639,0:15:26.800
time

0:15:23.279,0:15:29.839
in in code review in

0:15:26.800,0:15:30.720
architectural reviews uh in discovery to

0:15:29.839,0:15:32.240
you know

0:15:30.720,0:15:34.240
fairly even fairly in-depth technical

0:15:32.240,0:15:35.279
discovery with clients dealing with

0:15:34.240,0:15:37.040
what we're going to build how we're

0:15:35.279,0:15:37.680
going to build it um and then reviewing

0:15:37.040,0:15:39.279
and kind of

0:15:37.680,0:15:41.279
evaluating the process as build out to

0:15:39.279,0:15:43.360
make sure that we're building to quality

0:15:41.279,0:15:44.560
so i'm involved pretty pretty deep in

0:15:43.360,0:15:46.079
some of our projects especially our

0:15:44.560,0:15:48.959
flagship projects

0:15:46.079,0:15:50.399
but i'm not hands-on coding and then i'm

0:15:48.959,0:15:51.920
also part of the leadership team for the

0:15:50.399,0:15:53.600
company so there's some element of my

0:15:51.920,0:15:54.720
time that just goes into kind of company

0:15:53.600,0:15:58.240
management overall

0:15:54.720,0:16:01.519
company stuff do you miss coding

0:15:58.240,0:16:04.720
uh i yes to some degree um

0:16:01.519,0:16:07.360
but i i

0:16:04.720,0:16:08.880
i love the solution design part part of

0:16:07.360,0:16:10.160
it and i still get to do that when i'm

0:16:08.880,0:16:14.000
working on the architecture

0:16:10.160,0:16:15.360
so uh it's not so much that i miss

0:16:14.000,0:16:17.040
coaching it's more than i have to

0:16:15.360,0:16:18.480
i have to miss i have to hold myself

0:16:17.040,0:16:19.519
back from it because i know

0:16:18.480,0:16:21.360
there are things that are higher

0:16:19.519,0:16:22.880
leverage for me to work on and sometimes

0:16:21.360,0:16:24.240
if i'm like oh i could just go in and do

0:16:22.880,0:16:27.040
this myself right now

0:16:24.240,0:16:27.519
um that's what i have to resist is yeah

0:16:27.040,0:16:29.199
there's

0:16:27.519,0:16:30.399
not so much missing but just like okay i

0:16:29.199,0:16:31.279
know this isn't the most important thing

0:16:30.399,0:16:34.320
for me to work on

0:16:31.279,0:16:36.000
priorities prioritizing yeah yeah it's

0:16:34.320,0:16:38.160
it's uh development is a weird thing

0:16:36.000,0:16:40.639
where like so much of the time people

0:16:38.160,0:16:42.800
that no longer code actively

0:16:40.639,0:16:44.880
like miss it in this way that i don't

0:16:42.800,0:16:46.560
know if it's the same in like

0:16:44.880,0:16:48.320
other industries like i don't know if

0:16:46.560,0:16:51.839
people that do construction work

0:16:48.320,0:16:51.839
when they become construction managers

0:16:52.720,0:16:56.320
construction work i don't i don't know

0:16:54.880,0:16:57.600
for sure but i would imagine something

0:16:56.320,0:16:59.279
like that would be true though in like

0:16:57.600,0:17:01.519
other creative fields which i mean

0:16:59.279,0:17:03.040
and that's partially what makes it sure

0:17:01.519,0:17:04.640
about development yeah i would imagine

0:17:03.040,0:17:07.280
the designer who becomes an

0:17:04.640,0:17:08.079
executive creative director might maybe

0:17:07.280,0:17:09.919
i don't know for sure

0:17:08.079,0:17:11.280
not one but might miss getting in there

0:17:09.919,0:17:12.559
with photoshop and actually

0:17:11.280,0:17:14.400
uh you know putting something out or

0:17:12.559,0:17:17.919
design out him himself for herself

0:17:14.400,0:17:18.559
yeah i think so um so when it comes to

0:17:17.919,0:17:20.240
uh

0:17:18.559,0:17:23.280
the various you know e-commerce

0:17:20.240,0:17:25.199
platforms uh magento shopify i don't

0:17:23.280,0:17:28.000
know exactly which ones you guys

0:17:25.199,0:17:29.280
work with big commerce those are the two

0:17:28.000,0:17:30.559
main ones we work with ecommerce a

0:17:29.280,0:17:32.480
little bit as well but okay that's the

0:17:30.559,0:17:34.559
lesser

0:17:32.480,0:17:37.120
what are some things that you're excited

0:17:34.559,0:17:39.840
about you know enjoying learning

0:17:37.120,0:17:40.240
uh and or like particular pain points

0:17:39.840,0:17:41.760
with

0:17:40.240,0:17:43.919
you know the different econ platforms

0:17:41.760,0:17:46.640
that you're using

0:17:43.919,0:17:46.960
yeah so i mean i think uh the the ones

0:17:46.640,0:17:50.400
that

0:17:46.960,0:17:52.480
come to mind uh are the the things that

0:17:50.400,0:17:54.640
everyone knows to some degree about the

0:17:52.480,0:17:55.919
platforms but are just you know they

0:17:54.640,0:17:58.799
they come up in your face every single

0:17:55.919,0:18:00.799
day and um for magento that would be

0:17:58.799,0:18:02.320
the great things about it is how it's

0:18:00.799,0:18:04.400
flexible it is and the

0:18:02.320,0:18:05.520
fantastic user community around it um

0:18:04.400,0:18:07.440
for open source

0:18:05.520,0:18:08.720
um the downside is just the sheer

0:18:07.440,0:18:10.559
complexity of it uh

0:18:08.720,0:18:12.400
you know you know i've got people on my

0:18:10.559,0:18:14.000
team who have been you know working with

0:18:12.400,0:18:17.520
it for years i've been working with

0:18:14.000,0:18:18.880
it for years uh i i go back to like

0:18:17.520,0:18:20.400
very early as the magenta one when i

0:18:18.880,0:18:21.360
first started working on it and and i

0:18:20.400,0:18:23.679
still find stuff

0:18:21.360,0:18:25.200
that i'm like wait how did i not know

0:18:23.679,0:18:26.160
this this entire this entire time like

0:18:25.200,0:18:27.679
because i feel like no

0:18:26.160,0:18:29.520
no single person has all of magento in

0:18:27.679,0:18:30.640
their head i mean

0:18:29.520,0:18:32.640
there are probably a few of those you

0:18:30.640,0:18:35.200
know uh magento masters

0:18:32.640,0:18:36.799
like unicorns yeah right right but for

0:18:35.200,0:18:38.160
the most part like just the level of

0:18:36.799,0:18:40.400
complexity there

0:18:38.160,0:18:41.520
can get in your way on the magento side

0:18:40.400,0:18:42.799
on the shopify side you have the

0:18:41.520,0:18:43.840
opposite problem it's like the whole

0:18:42.799,0:18:45.600
wild garden thing

0:18:43.840,0:18:47.679
and yeah you feel like you're twisting

0:18:45.600,0:18:48.880
the platform to do things that it was

0:18:47.679,0:18:50.559
never intended to do

0:18:48.880,0:18:51.919
these things that should be relatively

0:18:50.559,0:18:54.799
straightforward um

0:18:51.919,0:18:55.120
and we've even had clients who kind of i

0:18:54.799,0:18:56.880
mean

0:18:55.120,0:18:57.679
i you know it's not exactly fair but i

0:18:56.880,0:18:59.120
completely understand where they're

0:18:57.679,0:19:01.120
coming from who kind of get mad

0:18:59.120,0:19:03.039
at us they're like you know why is this

0:19:01.120,0:19:05.600
so com why is it so hard

0:19:03.039,0:19:07.039
to do this thing it should be so simple

0:19:05.600,0:19:08.400
the whole promise of shopify is that

0:19:07.039,0:19:09.600
simple and i'm like well it's because

0:19:08.400,0:19:11.520
your needs are just

0:19:09.600,0:19:13.039
this much outside of whatever shopify

0:19:11.520,0:19:15.039
was designed for and

0:19:13.039,0:19:17.039
now you're twisting this like sash

0:19:15.039,0:19:19.360
platform into this you know kind of a

0:19:17.039,0:19:20.400
knot to make it work yeah you're in the

0:19:19.360,0:19:23.039
danger zone of

0:19:20.400,0:19:25.120
customizing too much right yeah it's

0:19:23.039,0:19:28.080
it's uh it's interesting i've been so

0:19:25.120,0:19:29.520
um magento heavy for so long i'm kind of

0:19:28.080,0:19:30.960
starting to like

0:19:29.520,0:19:33.600
poke my head up and look at some of the

0:19:30.960,0:19:35.280
different platforms and

0:19:33.600,0:19:36.960
try to understand them understand the

0:19:35.280,0:19:39.120
different strengths and weaknesses

0:19:36.960,0:19:40.240
and and and jump into the different

0:19:39.120,0:19:41.600
communities as well

0:19:40.240,0:19:43.440
and you know try to really kind of

0:19:41.600,0:19:45.600
understand them a little bit you know

0:19:43.440,0:19:47.120
yeah and i didn't mention the positive

0:19:45.600,0:19:47.440
for shopify but the positive there i

0:19:47.120,0:19:49.120
mean

0:19:47.440,0:19:50.720
is again the flip exact flip side of

0:19:49.120,0:19:52.240
that is is

0:19:50.720,0:19:53.760
i know theoretically you can set up a

0:19:52.240,0:19:55.120
gentle store in like

0:19:53.760,0:19:57.360
you know an hour or something like that

0:19:55.120,0:19:59.039
if you really know what you're doing and

0:19:57.360,0:20:01.200
don't care to customize anything at all

0:19:59.039,0:20:02.799
um but in that same hour you can have a

0:20:01.200,0:20:04.480
shopify store up with a custom theme

0:20:02.799,0:20:05.840
that's been chosen with you know at

0:20:04.480,0:20:06.559
least brand colors that match what you

0:20:05.840,0:20:07.919
want like

0:20:06.559,0:20:10.000
you're not nearly that far along on the

0:20:07.919,0:20:11.520
magento side and so if you're talking

0:20:10.000,0:20:13.520
about a

0:20:11.520,0:20:15.600
smaller company that just needs to get a

0:20:13.520,0:20:17.600
scrappy ecommerce presence up there

0:20:15.600,0:20:18.960
and um you know maybe even running a

0:20:17.600,0:20:20.559
decent sized business but they just they

0:20:18.960,0:20:22.720
just need to get up live quickly

0:20:20.559,0:20:23.840
uh you just can't beat a sas platform

0:20:22.720,0:20:26.480
for that yeah

0:20:23.840,0:20:26.960
yeah have you um have you looked at

0:20:26.480,0:20:29.120
their

0:20:26.960,0:20:30.400
subscriptions like shopify launched the

0:20:29.120,0:20:33.520
new kind of native

0:20:30.400,0:20:35.280
subscription functionality um and i i'd

0:20:33.520,0:20:35.600
seen you respond to some tweets related

0:20:35.280,0:20:38.720
to

0:20:35.600,0:20:40.640
to the subscription stuff yeah i've i've

0:20:38.720,0:20:42.080
been eagerly awaiting that because

0:20:40.640,0:20:44.080
uh every time that we have a client that

0:20:42.080,0:20:47.360
comes on board uh

0:20:44.080,0:20:49.360
who uh needs subscriptions um i'm like

0:20:47.360,0:20:51.120
uh do we do we tell them to hold out

0:20:49.360,0:20:51.520
just a little bit longer for this uh you

0:20:51.120,0:20:53.760
know

0:20:51.520,0:20:55.760
golden day of you know native magento or

0:20:53.760,0:20:59.679
not magenta shopify subscriptions

0:20:55.760,0:21:01.840
um and uh we really

0:20:59.679,0:21:03.039
have have upton now always pushed

0:21:01.840,0:21:05.840
everyone toward

0:21:03.039,0:21:07.120
uh we experimented with a few options

0:21:05.840,0:21:08.480
recurring was the one that we kind of

0:21:07.120,0:21:10.720
number currently um

0:21:08.480,0:21:12.640
we use that outside of shopify uh

0:21:10.720,0:21:15.760
recharge is the one that we

0:21:12.640,0:21:16.640
really that's a big one i see a lot of

0:21:15.760,0:21:19.360
people

0:21:16.640,0:21:20.080
running into issues with recharge and

0:21:19.360,0:21:21.919
like

0:21:20.080,0:21:24.000
i see a lot of people post on that about

0:21:21.919,0:21:27.200
three recharge recharge has

0:21:24.000,0:21:28.720
you know has challenges uh without

0:21:27.200,0:21:29.840
naming names we've used some of their

0:21:28.720,0:21:32.880
competitors and they're

0:21:29.840,0:21:32.880
worse so okay

0:21:33.039,0:21:37.679
it's like the thing is before i

0:21:36.480,0:21:39.039
first workshop subscriptions for the

0:21:37.679,0:21:40.400
first time i'm like oh you know how hard

0:21:39.039,0:21:41.120
can it be you just charge them somebody

0:21:40.400,0:21:44.400
every month

0:21:41.120,0:21:45.679
like i really don't know how to explain

0:21:44.400,0:21:46.720
to someone who hasn't literally written

0:21:45.679,0:21:49.039
subscription code

0:21:46.720,0:21:50.480
how complex and thorny this gets like it

0:21:49.039,0:21:51.520
doesn't just it doesn't seem like it

0:21:50.480,0:21:54.000
should be that bad

0:21:51.520,0:21:55.919
but it is is a naughty problem when you

0:21:54.000,0:21:57.200
get into all the nuances and edge cases

0:21:55.919,0:21:59.520
the pause against

0:21:57.200,0:22:01.360
you know rescheduling and fixing the

0:21:59.520,0:22:02.880
recharge or uh

0:22:01.360,0:22:05.039
renewal dates like that common day of

0:22:02.880,0:22:06.000
the month like manual overrides and all

0:22:05.039,0:22:07.520
sorts of stuff

0:22:06.000,0:22:09.840
right you know changes in payment

0:22:07.520,0:22:11.679
methods and um dunning to update their

0:22:09.840,0:22:12.559
your credit card information when their

0:22:11.679,0:22:15.919
number changes

0:22:12.559,0:22:17.919
and right it's there's just it's a

0:22:15.919,0:22:19.280
it's like it's like there's like layers

0:22:17.919,0:22:21.360
layers and layers

0:22:19.280,0:22:22.559
yeah yeah and it seems like there's

0:22:21.360,0:22:24.159
still um

0:22:22.559,0:22:25.600
some issues with i haven't worked with

0:22:24.159,0:22:27.200
it too closely but

0:22:25.600,0:22:29.039
um it seems like there's issues with

0:22:27.200,0:22:32.640
with migrating uh

0:22:29.039,0:22:34.000
into the new uh functionality and

0:22:32.640,0:22:35.919
yeah i kind of dropped the lead earlier

0:22:34.000,0:22:39.120
but yeah that's that's the

0:22:35.919,0:22:40.480
you know a lot of our clients

0:22:39.120,0:22:42.159
aren't ready to move to that new

0:22:40.480,0:22:44.799
platform until it's it's

0:22:42.159,0:22:46.240
more clearly tested and ready to go i

0:22:44.799,0:22:48.480
think if we did have

0:22:46.240,0:22:49.520
new new clients uh who were just

0:22:48.480,0:22:50.720
launching a store

0:22:49.520,0:22:52.960
i think we would definitely go with the

0:22:50.720,0:22:54.159
subscription uh

0:22:52.960,0:22:56.559
well actually you really have no choice

0:22:54.159,0:22:58.799
now because uh when when all their

0:22:56.559,0:23:01.039
partners that ran subscriptions through

0:22:58.799,0:23:02.240
uh the you know they were on the app

0:23:01.039,0:23:03.919
store uh

0:23:02.240,0:23:05.600
launch is kind of the same simultaneous

0:23:03.919,0:23:06.880
launch all of their old versions of

0:23:05.600,0:23:08.159
their apps just dropped off the app

0:23:06.880,0:23:09.919
store simultaneously so actually you

0:23:08.159,0:23:12.640
have no choice but to use the new model

0:23:09.919,0:23:13.760
going forward right right but i think

0:23:12.640,0:23:15.039
that's a good thing it's definitely

0:23:13.760,0:23:18.320
better to build on that

0:23:15.039,0:23:18.720
yeah so most of your current um clients

0:23:18.320,0:23:21.200
that are

0:23:18.720,0:23:22.640
doing subscription stuff are on recharge

0:23:21.200,0:23:24.880
do you have any that are on

0:23:22.640,0:23:27.600
um and are most of them on shopify or

0:23:24.880,0:23:30.960
any that are on magento as well

0:23:27.600,0:23:32.559
uh so we do have uh actually one of our

0:23:30.960,0:23:34.320
uh biggest subscription clients is on

0:23:32.559,0:23:37.440
magento and we actually use

0:23:34.320,0:23:38.720
um we don't use a sas uh or external

0:23:37.440,0:23:40.240
like service there

0:23:38.720,0:23:41.840
we actually use the paradox lab

0:23:40.240,0:23:45.039
subscription module um

0:23:41.840,0:23:47.200
which is uh uh fantastic um so

0:23:45.039,0:23:48.159
if you're gonna run subscriptions on on

0:23:47.200,0:23:50.240
magento i

0:23:48.159,0:23:52.640
highly recommend that module it's not a

0:23:50.240,0:23:54.159
cheap module but it's it's totally pays

0:23:52.640,0:23:55.760
for itself off i'm i don't work for

0:23:54.159,0:23:56.720
paradox labs but you know you know this

0:23:55.760,0:23:59.919
is my little uh free

0:23:56.720,0:24:01.840
free advert for them here nice um yeah

0:23:59.919,0:24:03.440
now that you mentioned that now that you

0:24:01.840,0:24:04.880
mentioned i i think i remember seeing

0:24:03.440,0:24:08.320
you guys tweeting about that

0:24:04.880,0:24:09.200
at one point um so is that one a lot

0:24:08.320,0:24:11.440
better than like

0:24:09.200,0:24:13.440
recharge um for different things that

0:24:11.440,0:24:15.760
you need to do

0:24:13.440,0:24:17.600
so i mean it's hard to say because

0:24:15.760,0:24:19.520
they're just they're so different i mean

0:24:17.600,0:24:20.880
one is a module that fits right into

0:24:19.520,0:24:21.840
magento and so there's definitely

0:24:20.880,0:24:23.600
advantages

0:24:21.840,0:24:25.039
to that you can customize and extend the

0:24:23.600,0:24:26.559
behavior however you want that and that

0:24:25.039,0:24:27.279
was really important for this one client

0:24:26.559,0:24:28.240
of ours

0:24:27.279,0:24:30.080
they actually considered going on

0:24:28.240,0:24:31.600
shopify when they were well abandoned

0:24:30.080,0:24:34.880
magento

0:24:31.600,0:24:36.400
um and a number of years ago now we took

0:24:34.880,0:24:38.240
over their site and they re-platformed

0:24:36.400,0:24:39.760
them onto magento 2 and we considered

0:24:38.240,0:24:42.320
shopify for them at that point

0:24:39.760,0:24:43.520
but they they do a lot of really nuanced

0:24:42.320,0:24:45.360
stuff with their subscriptions and they

0:24:43.520,0:24:46.640
want to really fine-tune how it works

0:24:45.360,0:24:48.640
in a way that would have been a

0:24:46.640,0:24:50.480
nightmare to do on any i mean

0:24:48.640,0:24:52.400
even with the new subscriptions platform

0:24:50.480,0:24:54.000
like you want to have fine grain control

0:24:52.400,0:24:55.760
over exactly how it's working

0:24:54.000,0:24:58.480
so that's where magento with the paradox

0:24:55.760,0:25:00.000
labs module is great because we can

0:24:58.480,0:25:01.520
extend and override that behavior

0:25:00.000,0:25:03.440
however we

0:25:01.520,0:25:05.200
at the same time there's an advantage of

0:25:03.440,0:25:07.360
just having a sas

0:25:05.200,0:25:08.880
tool that just does it if you don't even

0:25:07.360,0:25:10.400
need that yeah

0:25:08.880,0:25:12.080
what are some of those things that

0:25:10.400,0:25:13.440
they're doing to really get in there and

0:25:12.080,0:25:16.000
override and do some

0:25:13.440,0:25:17.279
unique things with subscriptions to the

0:25:16.000,0:25:20.720
extent that you can share

0:25:17.279,0:25:23.760
any of that yeah um so

0:25:20.720,0:25:26.880
i'm trying to think of a good example um

0:25:23.760,0:25:28.240
well so one option is and and this has

0:25:26.880,0:25:30.640
improved over time with

0:25:28.240,0:25:32.320
uh the have the sas platforms um though

0:25:30.640,0:25:34.720
it's still not fantastic

0:25:32.320,0:25:35.440
um and it actually changes but um

0:25:34.720,0:25:36.400
actually i mean

0:25:35.440,0:25:39.039
i can see the client the client's

0:25:36.400,0:25:40.640
munchpak um they've uh you know

0:25:39.039,0:25:42.400
we have no ndas let's see the same to

0:25:40.640,0:25:44.960
our client um but uh

0:25:42.400,0:25:45.520
they used to offer a preferences option

0:25:44.960,0:25:46.880
where

0:25:45.520,0:25:48.799
and it's a snack pack like you get like

0:25:46.880,0:25:49.840
a box with snacks delivered for snacks

0:25:48.799,0:25:51.919
from all around the world

0:25:49.840,0:25:53.200
um and uh they're used to they used to

0:25:51.919,0:25:54.080
offer a preferences option right you

0:25:53.200,0:25:57.679
could

0:25:54.080,0:25:57.679
yeah you should yeah go buy munchpak

0:25:57.840,0:26:03.600
um but uh these are a preferences option

0:26:01.919,0:26:04.400
where you could say i want salty snacks

0:26:03.600,0:26:06.320
and i want

0:26:04.400,0:26:07.919
um i don't want fish flavored snacks

0:26:06.320,0:26:08.799
which i mean in other parts of the world

0:26:07.919,0:26:10.080
that seems like weird like for an

0:26:08.799,0:26:12.480
american palette but there are fish

0:26:10.080,0:26:13.120
flavored like chips for example you know

0:26:12.480,0:26:14.400
they're sold

0:26:13.120,0:26:16.320
but like you can say i don't want this

0:26:14.400,0:26:18.720
or i do want this and

0:26:16.320,0:26:19.919
uh being able to keep track of that kind

0:26:18.720,0:26:24.080
of custom options

0:26:19.919,0:26:25.440
um on the subscriptions in the past when

0:26:24.080,0:26:26.960
we were first launching this was kind of

0:26:25.440,0:26:28.960
a weak point for a lot of those

0:26:26.960,0:26:30.000
out of the box or like shopify app based

0:26:28.960,0:26:32.000
subscriptions

0:26:30.000,0:26:34.080
even now it would be a little bit

0:26:32.000,0:26:36.960
trickier for us to include that than

0:26:34.080,0:26:38.799
it was on on magento gotcha so having

0:26:36.960,0:26:41.919
stuff like product option like like

0:26:38.799,0:26:44.480
options on on pro on the product kind of

0:26:41.919,0:26:45.679
object you can do that but i mean really

0:26:44.480,0:26:46.960
that's that's almost a shopify

0:26:45.679,0:26:49.600
limitation intrinsically

0:26:46.960,0:26:50.640
you can do custom options on products

0:26:49.600,0:26:52.720
but

0:26:50.640,0:26:54.640
it's it's all really buried under the

0:26:52.720,0:26:56.080
hood and so there's not a lot of first

0:26:54.640,0:26:59.840
class support for that where it's just

0:26:56.080,0:27:01.600
it's you know just standard with magento

0:26:59.840,0:27:03.120
so this is kind of a random question

0:27:01.600,0:27:04.799
that came up on twitter that i want to

0:27:03.120,0:27:08.320
like just bounce around was this

0:27:04.799,0:27:11.039
this micro services sas thing where like

0:27:08.320,0:27:12.799
um a buddy of mine was asking like like

0:27:11.039,0:27:13.279
an e-commerce store that has a bunch of

0:27:12.799,0:27:15.360
sass

0:27:13.279,0:27:17.200
plug-ins right like we're talking about

0:27:15.360,0:27:18.720
subscriptions you can think of reviews

0:27:17.200,0:27:19.840
you can think of a hundred other types

0:27:18.720,0:27:22.720
of

0:27:19.840,0:27:23.440
and the question is like is that a micro

0:27:22.720,0:27:26.320
services

0:27:23.440,0:27:28.320
architecture um which i think the

0:27:26.320,0:27:30.480
definition of you know microservices

0:27:28.320,0:27:32.559
is that they're highly maintainable

0:27:30.480,0:27:34.399
testable loosely coupled

0:27:32.559,0:27:36.480
independently deployable organized

0:27:34.399,0:27:39.600
around business capabilities

0:27:36.480,0:27:41.360
and owned by a small team so i want to i

0:27:39.600,0:27:42.159
want to bounce this around with you i'm

0:27:41.360,0:27:43.679
curious

0:27:42.159,0:27:45.200
what you think about i think in the i

0:27:43.679,0:27:46.240
think on twitter you said that it was a

0:27:45.200,0:27:49.039
hybrid

0:27:46.240,0:27:50.480
architecture right right and someone and

0:27:49.039,0:27:50.960
i forget who it was replied back and

0:27:50.480,0:27:52.399
followed

0:27:50.960,0:27:54.080
up and said well you know the term for

0:27:52.399,0:27:55.840
that is hub and spoke and actually when

0:27:54.080,0:27:57.360
i first wrote my tweet i was thinking of

0:27:55.840,0:27:57.760
saying oh it's a hubband's book but then

0:27:57.360,0:28:00.399
i

0:27:57.760,0:28:01.840
had googled myself and and i only came

0:28:00.399,0:28:02.559
up because like second guessing is that

0:28:01.840,0:28:04.320
the right term

0:28:02.559,0:28:05.840
um and i only came up with like other

0:28:04.320,0:28:06.720
usages of it so now like i'm not going

0:28:05.840,0:28:09.039
to say that

0:28:06.720,0:28:10.799
i'm just going to say yeah i mean that

0:28:09.039,0:28:13.120
was the favorite algebra

0:28:10.799,0:28:14.480
that sounds right yeah um i think the

0:28:13.120,0:28:16.559
hub and spoke model

0:28:14.480,0:28:17.760
um i mean that that is conceptually you

0:28:16.559,0:28:18.559
know what it is you can still have that

0:28:17.760,0:28:20.720
central

0:28:18.559,0:28:21.840
monolith that's in the middle there um

0:28:20.720,0:28:23.840
but you've

0:28:21.840,0:28:26.320
you've moved out some of the core

0:28:23.840,0:28:29.840
features to an external service

0:28:26.320,0:28:31.520
i think to the degree uh if it breaks

0:28:29.840,0:28:32.559
down it's considering the microservices

0:28:31.520,0:28:34.080
it's to degree that they're actually

0:28:32.559,0:28:35.200
micro because a lot of those external

0:28:34.080,0:28:37.039
services are

0:28:35.200,0:28:38.799
pretty macro in terms of the

0:28:37.039,0:28:40.480
functionality that they have within them

0:28:38.799,0:28:42.720
um but at least you've you've kind of

0:28:40.480,0:28:46.000
moved paradigmatically in

0:28:42.720,0:28:49.360
in that direction yeah so like

0:28:46.000,0:28:51.120
so the hub and spoke uh so so basically

0:28:49.360,0:28:52.399
like a true micro cert like

0:28:51.120,0:28:54.000
i'm trying to think of a canonical

0:28:52.399,0:28:55.600
example of microservices and i keep

0:28:54.000,0:28:58.240
thinking of twitter although i don't

0:28:55.600,0:28:59.360
know if that's exactly a micro services

0:28:58.240,0:29:01.279
but i think of like

0:28:59.360,0:29:03.840
the search service and the messaging

0:29:01.279,0:29:04.720
service i assume that's a micro services

0:29:03.840,0:29:07.120
architecture

0:29:04.720,0:29:08.480
but that's the example i keep i'm not

0:29:07.120,0:29:10.880
sure what their internal

0:29:08.480,0:29:12.799
uh architecture is i know one in the

0:29:10.880,0:29:15.279
e-commerce world one company

0:29:12.799,0:29:17.200
that went crazy i mean i'm gonna be in a

0:29:15.279,0:29:18.880
negative sense but they went like

0:29:17.200,0:29:20.559
full bore in the microservice direction

0:29:18.880,0:29:22.080
was jet.com okay

0:29:20.559,0:29:23.600
i actually had attended a talk with with

0:29:22.080,0:29:26.000
one of their engineers

0:29:23.600,0:29:27.919
like a local meetup okay and i mean they

0:29:26.000,0:29:30.559
they carved everything into

0:29:27.919,0:29:31.520
really small microservices um and you

0:29:30.559,0:29:34.480
know

0:29:31.520,0:29:35.840
and uh you know i i i couldn't name all

0:29:34.480,0:29:36.960
the details there but like i think they

0:29:35.840,0:29:38.559
had like a

0:29:36.960,0:29:40.080
a pricing microservice or even multiple

0:29:38.559,0:29:40.480
pricing microservices depending on like

0:29:40.080,0:29:42.960
what

0:29:40.480,0:29:44.159
the individual need was there and then

0:29:42.960,0:29:45.039
and then you had an inventory

0:29:44.159,0:29:46.080
microservice and

0:29:45.039,0:29:48.320
i mean in some degree that's kind of

0:29:46.080,0:29:48.880
what you see magento going toward with

0:29:48.320,0:29:51.760
all of its

0:29:48.880,0:29:53.039
different uh carving up of modules but

0:29:51.760,0:29:54.080
you know they had done that when

0:29:53.039,0:29:56.159
on the completely their own custom

0:29:54.080,0:29:59.360
platform it wasn't it wasn't

0:29:56.159,0:30:01.600
right right official right

0:29:59.360,0:30:03.440
right and like i think like search for

0:30:01.600,0:30:05.600
example is probably a good example of a

0:30:03.440,0:30:08.399
microservice

0:30:05.600,0:30:09.039
one of the pieces of functionality um

0:30:08.399,0:30:12.080
and like

0:30:09.039,0:30:15.120
that could be pretty that could be a big

0:30:12.080,0:30:18.000
like feature in the sense of it could be

0:30:15.120,0:30:19.360
a lot of code behind that right you

0:30:18.000,0:30:21.120
could have a lot of data you could

0:30:19.360,0:30:24.399
probably even have a decent sized team

0:30:21.120,0:30:27.760
behind that right um so like what like

0:30:24.399,0:30:29.520
is it micro or not like uh you could say

0:30:27.760,0:30:31.120
search is like that's not very micro

0:30:29.520,0:30:31.520
like that's like a d that's a decent

0:30:31.120,0:30:34.000
size

0:30:31.520,0:30:34.640
feature uh right but i feel like that

0:30:34.000,0:30:37.760
would still

0:30:34.640,0:30:40.480
fit into a microservices kind of a model

0:30:37.760,0:30:41.200
um yeah and then like i think i think to

0:30:40.480,0:30:42.640
me

0:30:41.200,0:30:44.559
i mean there is certainly a degree to

0:30:42.640,0:30:45.840
which the volume of code is relevant for

0:30:44.559,0:30:48.480
whether it's a microservice

0:30:45.840,0:30:50.399
but i think a lot of that is almost to

0:30:48.480,0:30:51.520
borrow kind of the object oriented con

0:30:50.399,0:30:53.520
like a principle like a single

0:30:51.520,0:30:56.559
responsibility uh principle

0:30:53.520,0:30:58.320
uh where uh is this is this

0:30:56.559,0:30:59.679
one thing or like to borrow from like a

0:30:58.320,0:31:01.760
domain driven design uh

0:30:59.679,0:31:03.279
model where like is this is this like

0:31:01.760,0:31:05.679
one action or one

0:31:03.279,0:31:07.279
or one uh domain object that you're kind

0:31:05.679,0:31:08.720
of interacting with there or is it

0:31:07.279,0:31:10.559
mixing a whole bunch of different things

0:31:08.720,0:31:12.640
together and

0:31:10.559,0:31:14.159
uh so if you think of like say take

0:31:12.640,0:31:17.200
subscriptions if you take

0:31:14.159,0:31:18.159
something like recharge and in your

0:31:17.200,0:31:19.919
model you're thinking of

0:31:18.159,0:31:21.200
recharge is the micro service well

0:31:19.919,0:31:22.320
recharge is doing a whole bunch of

0:31:21.200,0:31:24.399
things

0:31:22.320,0:31:26.080
and the customers and accounts and and

0:31:24.399,0:31:28.320
orders and invoices

0:31:26.080,0:31:29.840
and so that's you know maybe each of

0:31:28.320,0:31:34.559
those individual things

0:31:29.840,0:31:34.559
are microservices in a sense um but

0:31:34.799,0:31:38.399
i probably would be not great to call

0:31:37.600,0:31:41.120
recur or

0:31:38.399,0:31:41.919
recharge as a whole a microservice a

0:31:41.120,0:31:44.640
microservice

0:31:41.919,0:31:46.880
but then like if you had the um like

0:31:44.640,0:31:50.000
like in the jet example

0:31:46.880,0:31:53.360
um i mean i could imagine

0:31:50.000,0:31:54.960
like your subscription you know

0:31:53.360,0:31:57.440
functionality could be

0:31:54.960,0:31:59.440
a so if if the subscription

0:31:57.440,0:32:01.120
functionality wasn't the micro service

0:31:59.440,0:32:02.720
let's say in the jet.com example

0:32:01.120,0:32:04.720
theoretical example

0:32:02.720,0:32:06.799
how would it break like how would it be

0:32:04.720,0:32:10.279
broken down

0:32:06.799,0:32:13.919
into component parts that were more

0:32:10.279,0:32:16.399
microservicey than the subscriptions

0:32:13.919,0:32:17.840
as a whole well i mean you could for

0:32:16.399,0:32:19.919
example have

0:32:17.840,0:32:21.360
like your literal core subscription

0:32:19.919,0:32:23.679
microservice that

0:32:21.360,0:32:25.600
isn't responsible for keeping track of

0:32:23.679,0:32:28.640
promos or keeping track of accounts

0:32:25.600,0:32:31.840
but literally is responsible for

0:32:28.640,0:32:33.600
handling the the reorders you know just

0:32:31.840,0:32:35.679
the subscription on this date

0:32:33.600,0:32:37.120
on this date it's to do for the next

0:32:35.679,0:32:38.559
renewal of the subscription i'm going to

0:32:37.120,0:32:40.480
go ahead and place that order

0:32:38.559,0:32:42.000
right right and you know i mean if

0:32:40.480,0:32:44.000
that's a service i don't

0:32:42.000,0:32:46.159
you know or is that a background job but

0:32:44.000,0:32:46.880
um just like that that kind of a carving

0:32:46.159,0:32:48.720
off of a

0:32:46.880,0:32:49.919
of a small piece of functionality i

0:32:48.720,0:32:51.360
would say that that's where you would

0:32:49.919,0:32:53.440
you'd want to keep a micro service to

0:32:51.360,0:32:55.440
like that level of scope right

0:32:53.440,0:32:57.360
right yeah i don't know it's just a it's

0:32:55.440,0:32:58.559
it was a random thing that it's stuck in

0:32:57.360,0:33:00.000
my head and i don't know why i keep

0:32:58.559,0:33:01.679
thinking about it i'm not

0:33:00.000,0:33:03.039
like uh i'm not a huge what's the

0:33:01.679,0:33:04.720
technical developers

0:33:03.039,0:33:07.679
love to debate because it's semantics i

0:33:04.720,0:33:07.679
mean like like

0:33:08.840,0:33:12.880
exactly

0:33:10.159,0:33:14.559
you what is the micro service well

0:33:12.880,0:33:16.720
anything larger than a macro service i

0:33:14.559,0:33:16.720
mean

0:33:17.679,0:33:21.519
but is it what is it what the intent of

0:33:20.240,0:33:22.720
microservices was well

0:33:21.519,0:33:24.080
you can almost look like a spectrum

0:33:22.720,0:33:25.440
you're moving that direction but you're

0:33:24.080,0:33:28.080
probably not all the way to

0:33:25.440,0:33:28.960
a proper microservice it's just it's

0:33:28.080,0:33:31.679
funny because

0:33:28.960,0:33:32.640
i i think what stuck out to uh to me

0:33:31.679,0:33:34.480
about it

0:33:32.640,0:33:36.320
was that like i heard a lot of talk

0:33:34.480,0:33:38.240
around microservices kind of in the same

0:33:36.320,0:33:40.159
way we heard about headless it's like

0:33:38.240,0:33:41.760
there's a lot of excitement around it

0:33:40.159,0:33:43.919
maybe from a developer

0:33:41.760,0:33:45.440
uh perspective but then fast forward a

0:33:43.919,0:33:47.679
few years and you go like ah nobody's

0:33:45.440,0:33:50.960
really doing this except for like

0:33:47.679,0:33:53.360
rare cases of like you know companies

0:33:50.960,0:33:54.720
um and then i go wait a minute

0:33:53.360,0:33:56.559
everybody's doing this

0:33:54.720,0:33:58.799
like everybody that is following this

0:33:56.559,0:33:59.600
kind of e-commerce platform and sas

0:33:58.799,0:34:01.360
plugins is

0:33:59.600,0:34:02.559
actually doing this thing that i thought

0:34:01.360,0:34:04.240
was going to happen but then didn't

0:34:02.559,0:34:05.120
really happen but then oh wow it is

0:34:04.240,0:34:07.519
happening

0:34:05.120,0:34:08.240
um i think that was why i kind of like

0:34:07.519,0:34:10.480
you know

0:34:08.240,0:34:12.480
it stuck out and i think even outside of

0:34:10.480,0:34:15.119
like that sas model where you have those

0:34:12.480,0:34:15.599
you know hub and big spokes um worth

0:34:15.119,0:34:17.599
like

0:34:15.599,0:34:19.359
third parties um i think that is the

0:34:17.599,0:34:20.000
approach that you're seeing a lot more

0:34:19.359,0:34:21.919
of even

0:34:20.000,0:34:23.200
for you know boutique you know in

0:34:21.919,0:34:26.079
in-house software

0:34:23.200,0:34:27.040
is something of a monolith that's that's

0:34:26.079,0:34:28.960
still there

0:34:27.040,0:34:30.879
but then micro services that get carved

0:34:28.960,0:34:32.480
off because that particular piece

0:34:30.879,0:34:34.960
makes sense to maintain separately you

0:34:32.480,0:34:38.320
know we need to scale it independently

0:34:34.960,0:34:39.440
or um it's a very domain bounded context

0:34:38.320,0:34:40.320
that we can say look

0:34:39.440,0:34:42.240
we're going to have a team that's

0:34:40.320,0:34:42.639
specific to this who works on this piece

0:34:42.240,0:34:45.919
and

0:34:42.639,0:34:47.520
have a clear api that talks to it

0:34:45.919,0:34:49.119
right but there was definitely a

0:34:47.520,0:34:50.399
microservices craze where it was like

0:34:49.119,0:34:52.560
microservice all the things

0:34:50.399,0:34:54.079
um and that's you know probably was was

0:34:52.560,0:34:55.599
overkill yeah

0:34:54.079,0:34:57.200
and then the other thing i'm trying to

0:34:55.599,0:34:59.680
think about is like are

0:34:57.200,0:35:00.640
those sas services loosely coupled or

0:34:59.680,0:35:03.119
not

0:35:00.640,0:35:04.480
um it's another kind of a semantics

0:35:03.119,0:35:07.119
thing i think a little bit

0:35:04.480,0:35:07.760
what exactly does loosely coupled mean

0:35:07.119,0:35:09.839
like

0:35:07.760,0:35:13.280
in theory could you replace it on the

0:35:09.839,0:35:15.599
fly with nothing at all breaking

0:35:13.280,0:35:16.800
no probably not although in certain

0:35:15.599,0:35:18.560
instances you can

0:35:16.800,0:35:20.720
certain like interfaces for certain

0:35:18.560,0:35:23.839
types of things are pluggable

0:35:20.720,0:35:26.560
um but like in reality even if like

0:35:23.839,0:35:28.320
jet.com had a microservice change like

0:35:26.560,0:35:30.480
most likely things would break

0:35:28.320,0:35:32.720
if something got swapped out with their

0:35:30.480,0:35:34.960
one of their pricing microservices

0:35:32.720,0:35:36.640
like i'd imagine so that's another thing

0:35:34.960,0:35:37.599
i'm i'm trying to think through whether

0:35:36.640,0:35:39.359
or not

0:35:37.599,0:35:40.960
you would consider them loosely coupled

0:35:39.359,0:35:42.320
or not you know

0:35:40.960,0:35:44.400
so i mean like if you think about it in

0:35:42.320,0:35:45.440
like a php sense you're loosely coupling

0:35:44.400,0:35:47.760
depends a lot

0:35:45.440,0:35:48.480
on i mean you can do without this but

0:35:47.760,0:35:49.920
it's greatly

0:35:48.480,0:35:51.760
helped by using something like an

0:35:49.920,0:35:52.960
interface that defines what that

0:35:51.760,0:35:55.440
standard communication

0:35:52.960,0:35:56.800
is it's like the api for that class so

0:35:55.440,0:35:59.760
to some degree

0:35:56.800,0:36:01.119
if you could have an in the sas

0:35:59.760,0:36:03.839
equivalent of a

0:36:01.119,0:36:05.280
interface um that defines like how you

0:36:03.839,0:36:08.160
communicate between two different

0:36:05.280,0:36:09.440
pieces of sas software then those could

0:36:08.160,0:36:10.640
be loosely coupled from each other the

0:36:09.440,0:36:11.680
problem is it doesn't typically exist

0:36:10.640,0:36:13.680
unless you're using like a true

0:36:11.680,0:36:16.720
middleware solution

0:36:13.680,0:36:18.240
so then uh you do end up with tight

0:36:16.720,0:36:18.880
coupling because you're having to call

0:36:18.240,0:36:21.119
the

0:36:18.880,0:36:22.400
other api the other sas servers with the

0:36:21.119,0:36:23.680
idiosyncrasies of their particular

0:36:22.400,0:36:25.119
implementation

0:36:23.680,0:36:26.000
without that interface that says okay

0:36:25.119,0:36:27.599
this is the standard that we're all

0:36:26.000,0:36:29.280
going to abide by

0:36:27.599,0:36:31.200
and i haven't dug into like the new

0:36:29.280,0:36:32.079
shopify subscriptions far enough to know

0:36:31.200,0:36:34.640
100

0:36:32.079,0:36:35.359
for sure how it works but um from what i

0:36:34.640,0:36:36.720
have read

0:36:35.359,0:36:38.160
i think some degree that is part of what

0:36:36.720,0:36:39.280
it's doing i mean part of it is shopify

0:36:38.160,0:36:41.119
is just taking over

0:36:39.280,0:36:42.400
part of the functionality but part of it

0:36:41.119,0:36:44.240
is they are providing this

0:36:42.400,0:36:46.000
standard interface that says okay you

0:36:44.240,0:36:47.359
want to talk to a subscription platform

0:36:46.000,0:36:49.520
here's what the interface looks like and

0:36:47.359,0:36:49.920
whether that platform is is us on our

0:36:49.520,0:36:53.119
own

0:36:49.920,0:36:54.480
or us plus recharge or us plus bold um

0:36:53.119,0:36:56.640
you have that kind of

0:36:54.480,0:36:58.240
interface that allows you to decouple

0:36:56.640,0:37:01.280
your logic a little bit from those

0:36:58.240,0:37:02.880
parties right right what are um like

0:37:01.280,0:37:05.920
what are some of your favorite

0:37:02.880,0:37:08.079
like architectural challenges um

0:37:05.920,0:37:10.640
when it comes to e-commerce just

0:37:08.079,0:37:14.079
generally like what kinds of problems

0:37:10.640,0:37:17.839
are the most fun for you to try to solve

0:37:14.079,0:37:20.960
yeah i think that uh whenever

0:37:17.839,0:37:21.680
you're well fun you know you're gonna

0:37:20.960,0:37:23.839
think fun in

0:37:21.680,0:37:26.640
in two ways like literal fun or literal

0:37:23.839,0:37:28.320
like like oh that's fun

0:37:26.640,0:37:30.320
actually the oh that's fine is the

0:37:28.320,0:37:33.040
easier uh answer

0:37:30.320,0:37:34.720
okay let's go that direction and that's

0:37:33.040,0:37:36.800
that's when you have to deal with like a

0:37:34.720,0:37:38.400
data map between two different systems

0:37:36.800,0:37:39.359
that like handle things under like

0:37:38.400,0:37:41.119
different paradigms

0:37:39.359,0:37:43.920
um we had to integrate with one erp

0:37:41.119,0:37:47.200
where like what they called an invoice

0:37:43.920,0:37:50.400
was what magento called an order

0:37:47.200,0:37:51.359
and they didn't have like or

0:37:50.400,0:37:52.800
what they called an invoice was

0:37:51.359,0:37:53.680
basically what magento called an order

0:37:52.800,0:37:55.280
plus an invoice

0:37:53.680,0:37:56.800
but like even then it wasn't like like

0:37:55.280,0:37:58.320
it's not a one-to-one mapping or not

0:37:56.800,0:38:00.079
even a one to two mapping

0:37:58.320,0:38:01.280
it's like it's like this is oriented

0:38:00.079,0:38:02.400
this way this is oriented this way

0:38:01.280,0:38:02.880
they're like perpendicular to each other

0:38:02.400,0:38:05.040
and you're like

0:38:02.880,0:38:06.240
trying to map it back and forth yeah so

0:38:05.040,0:38:07.680
it's definitely a challenge and so it's

0:38:06.240,0:38:09.839
like it's fun in that you know

0:38:07.680,0:38:11.599
in a sincere sense it's fun to have that

0:38:09.839,0:38:12.960
challenge but it's also like

0:38:11.599,0:38:14.160
you know tearing your hair out at the

0:38:12.960,0:38:16.000
same time because you're trying to

0:38:14.160,0:38:18.160
figure out how to get these systems to

0:38:16.000,0:38:19.119
cooperate in a consistent clear way

0:38:18.160,0:38:22.160
right right right

0:38:19.119,0:38:24.320
but when um circling back a little bit

0:38:22.160,0:38:25.920
too we talked about kind of going remote

0:38:24.320,0:38:27.760
and the team your team and stuff like

0:38:25.920,0:38:29.119
that when it comes to hiring i'm trying

0:38:27.760,0:38:32.560
to do a better job of

0:38:29.119,0:38:34.800
talking about hiring on this uh podcast

0:38:32.560,0:38:35.839
um what are some of the biggest

0:38:34.800,0:38:38.640
challenges that

0:38:35.839,0:38:40.000
you know you're facing um or you know on

0:38:38.640,0:38:41.680
like on the flip side things that are

0:38:40.000,0:38:44.880
working particularly well

0:38:41.680,0:38:48.400
as far as hiring goes for you guys

0:38:44.880,0:38:50.880
yeah so um i we haven't seen

0:38:48.400,0:38:52.160
uh we haven't made our first uh remote

0:38:50.880,0:38:54.880
hire yet

0:38:52.160,0:38:55.359
since we've uh you know gone remote but

0:38:54.880,0:38:56.960
we are

0:38:55.359,0:38:58.960
in an interview process right now for

0:38:56.960,0:39:00.079
several well actually i should say in

0:38:58.960,0:39:01.839
engineering we've actually hired a

0:39:00.079,0:39:04.880
couple of roles outside of engineering

0:39:01.839,0:39:06.480
remote um we have a

0:39:04.880,0:39:08.240
business development representative and

0:39:06.480,0:39:09.440
uh account manager who are now like

0:39:08.240,0:39:11.040
outside of our area

0:39:09.440,0:39:12.400
and so we've had to go that whole

0:39:11.040,0:39:13.520
process fully remote but

0:39:12.400,0:39:15.119
engineering-wise

0:39:13.520,0:39:17.520
we're in the interview process right now

0:39:15.119,0:39:20.640
for several a couple positions but

0:39:17.520,0:39:21.040
i haven't actually made it higher yet i

0:39:20.640,0:39:23.359
think

0:39:21.040,0:39:24.880
that so far it hasn't made a huge

0:39:23.359,0:39:27.119
difference just with it with our

0:39:24.880,0:39:28.480
our process because we always had a very

0:39:27.119,0:39:29.119
streamlined process in the first place

0:39:28.480,0:39:31.599
that was

0:39:29.119,0:39:32.960
like an initial phone screen followed by

0:39:31.599,0:39:34.960
an in-person

0:39:32.960,0:39:36.400
interview that was with a couple people

0:39:34.960,0:39:37.440
on the team um

0:39:36.400,0:39:39.280
and kind of talked through software

0:39:37.440,0:39:40.079
architecture principles and a little bit

0:39:39.280,0:39:42.960
of like

0:39:40.079,0:39:44.320
tech stuff um or tech uh language

0:39:42.960,0:39:46.160
features that kind of thing

0:39:44.320,0:39:47.760
yeah and we've mostly just moved that

0:39:46.160,0:39:49.520
online um and

0:39:47.760,0:39:51.040
uh since we haven't made a hire yet it's

0:39:49.520,0:39:52.079
hard to say exactly whether or not we'll

0:39:51.040,0:39:53.200
look back on it and say oh we should

0:39:52.079,0:39:54.960
have done something differently

0:39:53.200,0:39:56.320
but so far in the hiring process i

0:39:54.960,0:39:58.480
haven't found that

0:39:56.320,0:40:00.079
being over a video screen has made a

0:39:58.480,0:40:02.320
whole lot different than being in person

0:40:00.079,0:40:04.000
for that

0:40:02.320,0:40:05.599
i saw somebody the other day that's

0:40:04.000,0:40:08.960
starting to do like um

0:40:05.599,0:40:10.800
uh like asynchronous video interviews

0:40:08.960,0:40:12.160
um where there's like a platform that

0:40:10.800,0:40:14.319
just lets people

0:40:12.160,0:40:16.480
record a video i guess response to

0:40:14.319,0:40:17.839
standard questions

0:40:16.480,0:40:19.520
i just saw that a couple days ago and i

0:40:17.839,0:40:21.440
thought that was a really cool

0:40:19.520,0:40:24.000
uh way to kind of streamline things you

0:40:21.440,0:40:26.079
know yeah i would say one thing that um

0:40:24.000,0:40:27.440
you know going remote has made us

0:40:26.079,0:40:29.200
it hasn't changed our process but it

0:40:27.440,0:40:29.920
changes what we look for in in the

0:40:29.200,0:40:32.480
candidate

0:40:29.920,0:40:33.760
in the sense that i mean communication

0:40:32.480,0:40:35.119
is is always core i mean it's

0:40:33.760,0:40:37.359
so core that i think it's kind of silly

0:40:35.119,0:40:39.040
when people list that as like a tree on

0:40:37.359,0:40:40.160
like a job listing like oh you

0:40:39.040,0:40:42.160
like you would want someone who doesn't

0:40:40.160,0:40:44.000
communicate like of course um

0:40:42.160,0:40:45.599
but i i do think that communication

0:40:44.000,0:40:47.359
skills are all the more important in a

0:40:45.599,0:40:51.920
remote position

0:40:47.359,0:40:54.000
and so we we have uh you know

0:40:51.920,0:40:55.040
i haven't gone this far yet but i've

0:40:54.000,0:40:56.240
even left something like a writing

0:40:55.040,0:40:57.760
sample it's something that i've

0:40:56.240,0:40:59.920
considered putting in place that

0:40:57.760,0:41:01.280
in the past wasn't as critical because

0:40:59.920,0:41:02.240
if someone wrote something out that

0:41:01.280,0:41:04.079
wasn't as clear

0:41:02.240,0:41:06.960
then we can go talk to them just just

0:41:04.079,0:41:08.640
clarify what they mean but

0:41:06.960,0:41:10.160
with things need to be more asynchronous

0:41:08.640,0:41:11.520
actually having a writing sample

0:41:10.160,0:41:13.599
i think is something that we we may put

0:41:11.520,0:41:15.599
into our process so it's clear

0:41:13.599,0:41:16.960
and yeah i've begun to take that a

0:41:15.599,0:41:18.480
little more informally even when i'm

0:41:16.960,0:41:19.119
looking at like resumes and cover

0:41:18.480,0:41:21.280
letters

0:41:19.119,0:41:22.480
um i've i've never been the sore and i'm

0:41:21.280,0:41:23.119
still not the sort to like throw

0:41:22.480,0:41:24.560
someone's

0:41:23.119,0:41:26.800
application out because they had like

0:41:24.560,0:41:28.640
one typo but whereas i might

0:41:26.800,0:41:30.560
used to have i might have had a little

0:41:28.640,0:41:31.760
more grace with like someone just being

0:41:30.560,0:41:33.599
a little bit unclear

0:41:31.760,0:41:35.280
um now i'm like yeah if you're not if

0:41:33.599,0:41:36.160
you're not clear in terms of what you're

0:41:35.280,0:41:38.319
saying

0:41:36.160,0:41:39.200
in your application that's a bad sign

0:41:38.319,0:41:40.960
for what you're going to be like when

0:41:39.200,0:41:43.680
you're rushing in a hurry later on

0:41:40.960,0:41:45.760
yeah yeah i'm similar like i don't

0:41:43.680,0:41:47.839
there's only a couple typos

0:41:45.760,0:41:49.440
that are like a deal but for some reason

0:41:47.839,0:41:51.280
lowercase i

0:41:49.440,0:41:52.480
in the beginning of a sentence just i

0:41:51.280,0:41:55.119
can't do it but

0:41:52.480,0:41:56.720
other than that like i'm not real picky

0:41:55.119,0:42:00.319
on typos but yeah like

0:41:56.720,0:42:01.599
is the clarity there um for the writing

0:42:00.319,0:42:03.359
sample thing

0:42:01.599,0:42:05.119
as you're thinking through that like

0:42:03.359,0:42:07.760
what type of a

0:42:05.119,0:42:09.520
writing prompt are you leaning towards

0:42:07.760,0:42:12.000
like is it maybe

0:42:09.520,0:42:13.680
uh here's a bug report and how are they

0:42:12.000,0:42:16.160
gonna combination of sort of

0:42:13.680,0:42:17.680
troubleshoot it communicate around it or

0:42:16.160,0:42:19.760
maybe like a feature

0:42:17.680,0:42:22.079
you know some communication around a new

0:42:19.760,0:42:23.839
feature what do you think in there

0:42:22.079,0:42:25.119
so one of the things that i've been kind

0:42:23.839,0:42:26.560
of tossing around in my head and

0:42:25.119,0:42:28.720
probably the direction i'd move forward

0:42:26.560,0:42:30.319
here is um

0:42:28.720,0:42:32.160
and this combines it with another

0:42:30.319,0:42:35.359
benefit is

0:42:32.160,0:42:36.560
having kind of a standard uh feature

0:42:35.359,0:42:38.960
and and essentially having them do a

0:42:36.560,0:42:40.640
code review of that um but doing it in a

0:42:38.960,0:42:41.839
in a in a written format you know in

0:42:40.640,0:42:44.480
you know github or a bit bucket make

0:42:41.839,0:42:47.359
that really easy but

0:42:44.480,0:42:48.640
you know so so but i would probably kind

0:42:47.359,0:42:50.400
of phrase it like

0:42:48.640,0:42:51.760
you know imagine this is a a pull

0:42:50.400,0:42:53.520
request being put in by

0:42:51.760,0:42:55.040
a junior we call them associate

0:42:53.520,0:42:56.560
developer on the team and

0:42:55.040,0:42:58.400
so it's more than just point out the

0:42:56.560,0:43:00.640
issue but kind of explain

0:42:58.400,0:43:02.079
why that needs to be changed um because

0:43:00.640,0:43:03.200
then we're both assessing okay how do

0:43:02.079,0:43:04.480
you evaluate code

0:43:03.200,0:43:06.240
you know how do you recognize where

0:43:04.480,0:43:08.000
there are things that need to be changed

0:43:06.240,0:43:10.160
which is of course a valuable thing but

0:43:08.000,0:43:11.839
then at the same time also

0:43:10.160,0:43:13.520
we can see how they communicate how well

0:43:11.839,0:43:15.119
do they explain themselves

0:43:13.520,0:43:16.880
that's a good idea like communicate it

0:43:15.119,0:43:20.160
and maybe try to

0:43:16.880,0:43:22.000
um like sort of maybe that educate like

0:43:20.160,0:43:23.599
educating the team member kind of

0:43:22.000,0:43:25.760
collaboratively

0:43:23.599,0:43:27.119
maybe not just like hear the things that

0:43:25.760,0:43:28.960
are wrong but like in a

0:43:27.119,0:43:30.240
communicating in a way that's helpful

0:43:28.960,0:43:31.520
yeah right right

0:43:30.240,0:43:32.880
and i mean i think that's good for code

0:43:31.520,0:43:34.319
review in general but i would probably

0:43:32.880,0:43:34.800
give that additional prompt like you

0:43:34.319,0:43:36.480
know

0:43:34.800,0:43:38.000
you know keep in mind this is or think

0:43:36.480,0:43:38.880
of this as being submitted by someone

0:43:38.000,0:43:40.319
who

0:43:38.880,0:43:41.839
is not just appear at your same level of

0:43:40.319,0:43:42.800
seniority and you're just like oh did

0:43:41.839,0:43:45.040
you catch this thing

0:43:42.800,0:43:46.480
like oh okay got it um like they may not

0:43:45.040,0:43:47.920
get what you're saying so kind of walk

0:43:46.480,0:43:49.599
them through it a little bit more

0:43:47.920,0:43:51.280
that's a good that's a i like that it's

0:43:49.599,0:43:52.720
a good idea um

0:43:51.280,0:43:55.599
so there's a non-profit that you

0:43:52.720,0:43:57.520
volunteer for uh redemption housing

0:43:55.599,0:43:59.119
uh which integrates the formerly

0:43:57.520,0:44:00.000
incarcerated back in the life of their

0:43:59.119,0:44:02.079
community

0:44:00.000,0:44:03.599
which i think is really cool that you do

0:44:02.079,0:44:05.839
that and i think i've seen you

0:44:03.599,0:44:07.520
tweet about that a little bit um how's

0:44:05.839,0:44:09.359
how's all that going and

0:44:07.520,0:44:11.200
and what do you do for that um what do

0:44:09.359,0:44:13.760
you do to volunteer there

0:44:11.200,0:44:14.480
yeah so my primary involvement there um

0:44:13.760,0:44:17.280
these days

0:44:14.480,0:44:17.599
is i just serve on the board um i used

0:44:17.280,0:44:19.359
to be

0:44:17.599,0:44:20.800
involved a little bit more hands-on i

0:44:19.359,0:44:22.240
was actually i was

0:44:20.800,0:44:24.079
one of the founding board members of the

0:44:22.240,0:44:25.839
organization back when it first got

0:44:24.079,0:44:27.119
got started and at that point it was

0:44:25.839,0:44:28.160
like all hands on deck to get everything

0:44:27.119,0:44:29.359
done and we're still a small

0:44:28.160,0:44:30.400
organization so that's still true to

0:44:29.359,0:44:32.160
some degree but

0:44:30.400,0:44:34.560
these days i i used to live in philly

0:44:32.160,0:44:37.200
and it's an organization based in philly

0:44:34.560,0:44:38.480
so my personal involvement is more

0:44:37.200,0:44:40.079
maintaining the website and being

0:44:38.480,0:44:43.040
involved on the board

0:44:40.079,0:44:45.119
but the organization's doing great um we

0:44:43.040,0:44:48.640
have um one house up right now

0:44:45.119,0:44:50.079
um where we have um several men who are

0:44:48.640,0:44:52.240
actually just about transition out of

0:44:50.079,0:44:54.240
our program um and uh

0:44:52.240,0:44:55.920
i have been you know we're nearing the

0:44:54.240,0:44:56.800
end of fundraising for opening our

0:44:55.920,0:44:58.960
second house

0:44:56.800,0:45:00.720
um so that we can you know open that up

0:44:58.960,0:45:02.000
and this first house that we have right

0:45:00.720,0:45:04.400
now is for

0:45:02.000,0:45:06.079
uh people who have already been out of

0:45:04.400,0:45:06.880
um prison for a little while and have

0:45:06.079,0:45:08.560
gotten

0:45:06.880,0:45:10.000
their feet under them a little bit um we

0:45:08.560,0:45:11.839
just don't need to just a little bit we

0:45:10.000,0:45:13.359
call it contacting the next step program

0:45:11.839,0:45:15.839
um a little bit more support before

0:45:13.359,0:45:17.920
they're ready to go out on their own

0:45:15.839,0:45:19.040
but our next house is really what our

0:45:17.920,0:45:20.960
vision is for

0:45:19.040,0:45:23.040
um to begin with and that is for those

0:45:20.960,0:45:25.040
who are coming directly out of prison

0:45:23.040,0:45:27.200
and to give them a place where they can

0:45:25.040,0:45:28.720
live with community support but in a

0:45:27.200,0:45:30.160
dignified manner and i think that's

0:45:28.720,0:45:31.760
that's a big piece of it because there

0:45:30.160,0:45:33.280
are frankly there's just not enough

0:45:31.760,0:45:34.000
programs out there that provide housing

0:45:33.280,0:45:35.359
for

0:45:34.000,0:45:37.280
uh or supports in general for people

0:45:35.359,0:45:40.480
coming out of incarceration but

0:45:37.280,0:45:42.000
those that do are often uh strip some of

0:45:40.480,0:45:42.560
the dignity away from the individuals

0:45:42.000,0:45:44.160
and

0:45:42.560,0:45:45.680
we want to really keep that in place for

0:45:44.160,0:45:47.680
them like

0:45:45.680,0:45:49.440
some of the typical like halfway houses

0:45:47.680,0:45:52.000
you mean like yeah so i mean

0:45:49.440,0:45:52.880
yeah like a lot of halfway houses um uh

0:45:52.000,0:45:54.960
there's

0:45:52.880,0:45:56.079
if you talk to the guys who've um you

0:45:54.960,0:45:56.640
know men and women who've been through

0:45:56.079,0:45:58.640
those

0:45:56.640,0:45:59.760
uh uh it will either they either go one

0:45:58.640,0:46:00.720
or two directions either they're so

0:45:59.760,0:46:02.640
permissive and

0:46:00.720,0:46:03.760
anything goes that there's no structure

0:46:02.640,0:46:06.319
at all for someone

0:46:03.760,0:46:07.599
um who you know you know may benefit

0:46:06.319,0:46:08.560
from a little bit of structure and a

0:46:07.599,0:46:10.400
little bit of support

0:46:08.560,0:46:11.760
for getting integrated back into the

0:46:10.400,0:46:14.240
community and

0:46:11.760,0:46:15.359
uh lead to very rapid recidivism because

0:46:14.240,0:46:16.319
there's just nothing to help support

0:46:15.359,0:46:18.079
them at all

0:46:16.319,0:46:19.440
or they go to the level where it's

0:46:18.079,0:46:20.400
basically like being in prison all over

0:46:19.440,0:46:23.440
again with just like

0:46:20.400,0:46:25.200
a little bit you know more freedom and

0:46:23.440,0:46:27.200
we want to and it's you know i'm not

0:46:25.200,0:46:28.720
sure that i can promise we'll always

0:46:27.200,0:46:30.000
be perfect at it but our goal is to

0:46:28.720,0:46:30.880
really walk the line between those two

0:46:30.000,0:46:33.040
approaches where

0:46:30.880,0:46:34.560
you have that dignity of feeling you are

0:46:33.040,0:46:35.680
a free person you're not you're not

0:46:34.560,0:46:38.400
still back in prison

0:46:35.680,0:46:39.920
um but giving them uh the holistic

0:46:38.400,0:46:41.599
support wrap around the services that

0:46:39.920,0:46:45.359
they need to

0:46:41.599,0:46:47.280
to to do well and you know to get uh

0:46:45.359,0:46:49.839
you know from as as our director likes

0:46:47.280,0:46:51.119
to say going from mass incarceration to

0:46:49.839,0:46:53.680
mass reintegration

0:46:51.119,0:46:54.319
um back into into the communities and

0:46:53.680,0:46:56.000
neighborhoods

0:46:54.319,0:46:58.079
that's awesome man how did you how did

0:46:56.000,0:46:59.920
you get involved with that like what was

0:46:58.079,0:47:02.319
the impetus for you

0:46:59.920,0:47:04.240
initially yeah so so i've have i had

0:47:02.319,0:47:05.440
kind of i have an interesting background

0:47:04.240,0:47:07.200
from

0:47:05.440,0:47:09.280
my development and professional career

0:47:07.200,0:47:11.599
has kind of been in parallel with a

0:47:09.280,0:47:13.839
non-profit and career i actually

0:47:11.599,0:47:17.520
graduated from from uh seminary as well

0:47:13.839,0:47:20.400
i saw that yeah m div yeah

0:47:17.520,0:47:21.599
and while i was working on my degree i

0:47:20.400,0:47:24.960
was an intern at a church

0:47:21.599,0:47:26.720
and one of the fellow interns uh

0:47:24.960,0:47:28.319
had this idea for redemption housing

0:47:26.720,0:47:30.160
back um while we were there

0:47:28.319,0:47:31.839
but he wasn't ready to get it started um

0:47:30.160,0:47:33.200
we both graduated moved on

0:47:31.839,0:47:35.680
uh he was in working for the city of

0:47:33.200,0:47:36.880
philadelphia or actually no not not yet

0:47:35.680,0:47:39.200
at that point he was working

0:47:36.880,0:47:40.240
um for a like a rescue mission like

0:47:39.200,0:47:42.880
homeless shelter

0:47:40.240,0:47:44.240
um um but that was just general it

0:47:42.880,0:47:45.599
wasn't specifically to the

0:47:44.240,0:47:47.520
for the formerly incarcerated in any

0:47:45.599,0:47:49.040
sense um but reached back out and said

0:47:47.520,0:47:50.720
you know hey i'd like to get this thing

0:47:49.040,0:47:53.839
started that we talked about back

0:47:50.720,0:47:54.960
um you know years ago and i said yeah

0:47:53.839,0:47:58.240
i'm on board so

0:47:54.960,0:47:59.440
you know we uh we and a few others you

0:47:58.240,0:48:00.160
know kind of got it off the ground in

0:47:59.440,0:48:03.200
the first place

0:48:00.160,0:48:04.960
and it's you know i wouldn't say it's in

0:48:03.200,0:48:07.119
rapid growth but um it's been growing

0:48:04.960,0:48:09.040
and it's a it's a steady

0:48:07.119,0:48:11.040
healthy organization so excited about

0:48:09.040,0:48:12.480
that it's really cool man it's a really

0:48:11.040,0:48:12.800
it's a really neat thing to do there's a

0:48:12.480,0:48:16.240
lot

0:48:12.800,0:48:18.319
in the news you know related to um

0:48:16.240,0:48:20.000
you know incarceration and and

0:48:18.319,0:48:22.960
especially like for drug

0:48:20.000,0:48:24.079
low level uh drug offenses and stuff

0:48:22.960,0:48:26.720
like that and

0:48:24.079,0:48:28.480
and um i mean you're actually working at

0:48:26.720,0:48:29.119
it on the ground which is amazing you

0:48:28.480,0:48:32.880
know

0:48:29.119,0:48:34.559
yeah yeah yeah and actually um

0:48:32.880,0:48:36.559
that the overall attention in the in the

0:48:34.559,0:48:38.800
media has actually helped like we

0:48:36.559,0:48:39.839
um we were very grateful to our donors

0:48:38.800,0:48:41.760
there because

0:48:39.839,0:48:42.880
we actually have had one of our best

0:48:41.760,0:48:46.960
financial years

0:48:42.880,0:48:48.720
this year uh in the midst of combat um

0:48:46.960,0:48:49.839
uh because i think partially because of

0:48:48.720,0:48:50.800
a lot of the attention that's been in

0:48:49.839,0:48:52.480
the media that's been

0:48:50.800,0:48:53.839
helpful to the the real issues that are

0:48:52.480,0:48:55.680
out there um but has

0:48:53.839,0:48:57.040
has given us a big boost toward that

0:48:55.680,0:48:59.440
that fundraising for the second house

0:48:57.040,0:49:00.240
that's amazing man and i'd imagine most

0:48:59.440,0:49:02.000
uh

0:49:00.240,0:49:03.520
charity contributions have got to be

0:49:02.000,0:49:06.480
down during

0:49:03.520,0:49:07.760
absolutely yeah yeah so we're we're kind

0:49:06.480,0:49:09.839
of one of the exceptions there

0:49:07.760,0:49:11.839
that's great man that's really cool um

0:49:09.839,0:49:14.000
that should do that

0:49:11.839,0:49:15.520
awesome man well it was a lot of fun uh

0:49:14.000,0:49:17.599
getting a chance to chat with you

0:49:15.520,0:49:19.680
um where is the best place for people to

0:49:17.599,0:49:22.800
find you online

0:49:19.680,0:49:25.040
um so me personally twitter is my

0:49:22.800,0:49:27.520
primary uh place of engagement there so

0:49:25.040,0:49:28.559
i'm the the scottish b which sounds like

0:49:27.520,0:49:29.839
super pompous but

0:49:28.559,0:49:31.280
it was literally all the other

0:49:29.839,0:49:32.240
variations of my name were taken by time

0:49:31.280,0:49:33.839
i got on twitter so

0:49:32.240,0:49:38.800
it's hard yeah it's hard it's hard to

0:49:33.839,0:49:38.800
find a handle these days