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Scott Buchanan is the Director of Engineering at Ripen - specializing in commerce and producing excellent products that benefit everyone they touch. He serves on the board of directors for Redemption Housing, integrating the formerly incarcerated back into the life of their community.
0:00:00.080,0:00:03.679 that's kind of the third area that we're 0:00:02.080,0:00:06.799 actually getting more and more into 0:00:03.679,0:00:09.920 is uh just truly custom e-commerce 0:00:06.799,0:00:10.800 uh where their business model is not a 0:00:09.920,0:00:12.480 standard 0:00:10.800,0:00:14.000 like we're gonna buy a widget and ship 0:00:12.480,0:00:15.759 it to your house 0:00:14.000,0:00:17.279 and uh so we're kind of expanding the 0:00:15.759,0:00:19.359 idea of e-commerce a little more broadly 0:00:17.279,0:00:30.300 and building solutions that don't fit on 0:00:19.359,0:00:35.529 any e-commerce framework 0:00:30.300,0:00:35.529 [Music] 0:00:36.239,0:00:39.840 scott how you doing sir i'm doing well 0:00:38.879,0:00:42.399 how about you 0:00:39.840,0:00:44.160 not too bad not too bad it's a little uh 0:00:42.399,0:00:46.719 a little cloudy a little overcast 0:00:44.160,0:00:48.559 today so the weather has been like a lot 0:00:46.719,0:00:51.360 nicer than usual well it's a lot 0:00:48.559,0:00:53.199 like a lot warmer um like last year 0:00:51.360,0:00:56.320 around like halloween it was just like 0:00:53.199,0:00:59.039 freezing it was like 30 degrees 0:00:56.320,0:01:00.079 so i'm kind of riding this this wave out 0:00:59.039,0:01:03.120 as 0:01:00.079,0:01:05.600 as long as you can it was uh 70 0:01:03.120,0:01:06.960 up here uh actually it was almost 80 0:01:05.600,0:01:08.400 over the weekend here in new jersey 0:01:06.960,0:01:10.880 which is just you don't get that in 0:01:08.400,0:01:11.600 in right in november so right right 0:01:10.880,0:01:13.600 right 0:01:11.600,0:01:15.840 went out and took a good walk outside 0:01:13.600,0:01:18.159 nice nice yeah it seems like that's 0:01:15.840,0:01:19.200 i i have a buddy in michigan it was also 0:01:18.159,0:01:21.439 like it was like 0:01:19.200,0:01:23.200 warmer than usual so i guess it's like 0:01:21.439,0:01:25.600 the whole country 0:01:23.200,0:01:27.439 so um so how's everything going during 0:01:25.600,0:01:31.119 covid how what are you doing to stay 0:01:27.439,0:01:33.439 sane hopefully you are staying sane 0:01:31.119,0:01:34.320 um yeah how's it going yeah uh 0:01:33.439,0:01:36.400 thankfully 0:01:34.320,0:01:37.920 um you know we've been doing pretty well 0:01:36.400,0:01:38.320 uh you know kind of hunkered down into 0:01:37.920,0:01:41.600 our 0:01:38.320,0:01:43.280 our little island here um thankfully 0:01:41.600,0:01:44.240 you know more recently things opened 0:01:43.280,0:01:45.680 back up so i think they're going to 0:01:44.240,0:01:47.840 close back down again so 0:01:45.680,0:01:48.960 we're able to carefully you know step 0:01:47.840,0:01:50.640 out but 0:01:48.960,0:01:51.600 personally it hasn't been too bad for us 0:01:50.640,0:01:53.360 i know a lot of people have been 0:01:51.600,0:01:55.439 infected pretty badly but thankfully 0:01:53.360,0:01:56.960 at least this is from my family and um 0:01:55.439,0:01:58.960 for our company it's not been 0:01:56.960,0:02:00.079 it's not been too bad yeah yeah that's 0:01:58.960,0:02:01.840 good man um 0:02:00.079,0:02:03.600 and have you worked remotely do you work 0:02:01.840,0:02:04.560 remotely or have you worked remotely for 0:02:03.600,0:02:06.560 a while yeah 0:02:04.560,0:02:08.080 yeah so we were actually before covet 0:02:06.560,0:02:11.440 hit we were putting together a plan 0:02:08.080,0:02:13.440 to start going remote um we had 0:02:11.440,0:02:15.520 uh because we we had actually a really 0:02:13.440,0:02:17.680 strong in-office culture for a long time 0:02:15.520,0:02:19.200 um and had made our first foray into 0:02:17.680,0:02:21.040 hiring remotely i think 0:02:19.200,0:02:22.560 uh almost about a year ago so it was 0:02:21.040,0:02:26.000 like september of last 0:02:22.560,0:02:27.280 of 2019 um and uh it 0:02:26.000,0:02:28.640 it didn't work out that well i think we 0:02:27.280,0:02:29.360 just didn't have the processes in place 0:02:28.640,0:02:30.800 to support it 0:02:29.360,0:02:32.319 um and it was only a contract like 0:02:30.800,0:02:32.959 temporary contract so it wasn't you know 0:02:32.319,0:02:36.080 a huge 0:02:32.959,0:02:37.599 issue but like was actually someone who 0:02:36.080,0:02:39.840 she did great work and we would have 0:02:37.599,0:02:41.760 liked to bring her on uh permanently 0:02:39.840,0:02:42.720 um but she kind of said no to us and i 0:02:41.760,0:02:43.920 think it was partially because we didn't 0:02:42.720,0:02:44.959 really support her very well and so it 0:02:43.920,0:02:46.959 wasn't a very good 0:02:44.959,0:02:48.239 relationship so we took a step back from 0:02:46.959,0:02:50.400 that and said okay let's actually 0:02:48.239,0:02:53.760 get some processes in place that would 0:02:50.400,0:02:54.800 let us do remote work well 0:02:53.760,0:02:56.720 and originally it was going to kind of a 0:02:54.800,0:02:58.319 hybrid model but then covet hit and it 0:02:56.720,0:02:59.920 would just accelerate all of our plans 0:02:58.319,0:03:01.280 but what we did then is we have now 0:02:59.920,0:03:02.080 officially said okay we're going to go 0:03:01.280,0:03:04.159 remote 0:03:02.080,0:03:06.000 permanently um and uh you know we 0:03:04.159,0:03:06.319 actually left our lease in our office 0:03:06.000,0:03:08.239 and 0:03:06.319,0:03:09.440 oh wow are not now officially fully 0:03:08.239,0:03:10.640 remote even 0:03:09.440,0:03:12.959 when everything's gonna open back up 0:03:10.640,0:03:14.159 fully yeah man i think a lot of 0:03:12.959,0:03:16.959 companies are going through that 0:03:14.159,0:03:17.760 transition um what are what are some of 0:03:16.959,0:03:18.959 the um 0:03:17.760,0:03:20.480 and i think i think everybody goes 0:03:18.959,0:03:21.440 through that transition where you kind 0:03:20.480,0:03:23.680 of try it 0:03:21.440,0:03:25.360 but it's not fully baked and it's you 0:03:23.680,0:03:26.080 know it's kind of awkward and stuff like 0:03:25.360,0:03:28.879 that 0:03:26.080,0:03:30.799 um what are some of the things you're 0:03:28.879,0:03:31.599 thinking about or you know processes 0:03:30.799,0:03:34.799 you're trying to 0:03:31.599,0:03:36.319 get into place to make it work yeah so i 0:03:34.799,0:03:37.920 mean the issues that we ran into in the 0:03:36.319,0:03:41.040 first place were more 0:03:37.920,0:03:41.440 around um communication and culture in 0:03:41.040,0:03:44.080 term 0:03:41.440,0:03:44.959 just i think that this freelancer 0:03:44.080,0:03:47.840 contractor we had 0:03:44.959,0:03:49.200 hired she felt disconnected she wasn't 0:03:47.840,0:03:51.280 she didn't feel like part of the team 0:03:49.200,0:03:52.799 we kind of pushed a project over to her 0:03:51.280,0:03:54.400 and i would check in with slack 0:03:52.799,0:03:55.599 uh you know and so it's probably that 0:03:54.400,0:03:56.159 that was probably on me personally i 0:03:55.599,0:03:58.159 wasn't 0:03:56.159,0:04:00.720 communicating with her as much as we i 0:03:58.159,0:04:01.920 could have but again the culture for the 0:04:00.720,0:04:03.200 whole company would revolve around the 0:04:01.920,0:04:03.599 office we could see each other around 0:04:03.200,0:04:05.519 and 0:04:03.599,0:04:06.799 check in with each other there a lot a 0:04:05.519,0:04:08.879 lot of informal check-ins 0:04:06.799,0:04:10.000 um and so you know she didn't have that 0:04:08.879,0:04:12.879 so part of our 0:04:10.000,0:04:14.080 vision initially before kova that we 0:04:12.879,0:04:16.560 were trying to fix 0:04:14.080,0:04:17.519 was you know how how do we incorporate 0:04:16.560,0:04:19.040 remote people 0:04:17.519,0:04:21.120 almost into the office like how do we 0:04:19.040,0:04:22.400 bring that culture into the office or 0:04:21.120,0:04:24.160 push everything even in the office 0:04:22.400,0:04:27.120 remote so that there's kind of 11 0:04:24.160,0:04:27.120 level playing field 0:04:27.199,0:04:30.400 thankfully once everyone did go remote 0:04:28.880,0:04:32.400 that kind of forced some of that issue i 0:04:30.400,0:04:33.759 mean there's definitely still a cultural 0:04:32.400,0:04:35.520 thing you've got to deal with i'd say 0:04:33.759,0:04:38.080 the bigger challenges once we did a 0:04:35.520,0:04:39.199 remote were all the logistical things 0:04:38.080,0:04:41.360 you know we had we had a health 0:04:39.199,0:04:43.280 insurance plan that only supported 0:04:41.360,0:04:44.639 people in new jersey so if you watch you 0:04:43.280,0:04:47.600 want to hire remotely you know now we've 0:04:44.639,0:04:47.600 got to change health insurance 0:04:47.759,0:04:51.440 like we have we had an it provider who 0:04:49.840,0:04:51.919 like did like like just help desk type 0:04:51.440,0:04:53.199 support 0:04:51.919,0:04:55.680 who you know was really only set up for 0:04:53.199,0:04:57.120 doing local uh help desk stuff so we had 0:04:55.680,0:04:58.080 to figure out how to do it support 0:04:57.120,0:04:59.440 remotely so 0:04:58.080,0:05:01.919 it's just those little logistical stuff 0:04:59.440,0:05:03.520 that what did you do with healthcare i 0:05:01.919,0:05:05.520 know healthcare is is 0:05:03.520,0:05:07.039 complicated a lot of people struggle 0:05:05.520,0:05:09.039 with it was there a 0:05:07.039,0:05:11.520 provider that you found that was just 0:05:09.039,0:05:13.840 great like across the us 0:05:11.520,0:05:15.199 uh we already were using paychecks for 0:05:13.840,0:05:18.800 um just to handling our 0:05:15.199,0:05:20.479 paycheck processing um but we were 0:05:18.800,0:05:22.160 our health insurance plan was purchased 0:05:20.479,0:05:23.680 directly by our company 0:05:22.160,0:05:26.160 what we did was we did go ahead and 0:05:23.680,0:05:27.600 switch to paychecks as peo program 0:05:26.160,0:05:29.600 um and because their peo program is 0:05:27.600,0:05:30.320 national their healthcare plan is also 0:05:29.600,0:05:32.960 national 0:05:30.320,0:05:34.880 um so then we were able to uh you know 0:05:32.960,0:05:37.600 offer it through that peo 0:05:34.880,0:05:38.000 nice and then like as far as other stuff 0:05:37.600,0:05:41.280 like 0:05:38.000,0:05:41.680 like where like what uh what tools are 0:05:41.280,0:05:44.080 using 0:05:41.680,0:05:45.600 slack are you are you relying more 0:05:44.080,0:05:48.080 heavily on like 0:05:45.600,0:05:49.680 writing stuff down in jira ticketing 0:05:48.080,0:05:52.320 that kind of stuff like 0:05:49.680,0:05:53.440 what type of stuff are y'all doing yeah 0:05:52.320,0:05:56.000 we've had a 0:05:53.440,0:05:57.440 reasonably strong i wouldn't say super 0:05:56.000,0:05:58.639 strong but a reasonably strong culture 0:05:57.440,0:05:59.759 of writing things down in the first 0:05:58.639,0:06:01.199 place so 0:05:59.759,0:06:04.560 that that helped us we didn't really 0:06:01.199,0:06:07.039 have to transition a whole lot there 0:06:04.560,0:06:08.400 but we were already using slack but 0:06:07.039,0:06:09.360 obviously 0:06:08.400,0:06:11.039 one of the big differences well the 0:06:09.360,0:06:11.680 development team used slack very 0:06:11.039,0:06:13.360 regularly 0:06:11.680,0:06:14.880 but we were kind and technically it was 0:06:13.360,0:06:16.000 rolled out to the whole company but a 0:06:14.880,0:06:16.960 lot of other teams especially our 0:06:16.000,0:06:18.240 creative team they know they love 0:06:16.960,0:06:20.479 talking to each other in person 0:06:18.240,0:06:21.680 um so there's kind of like this silo of 0:06:20.479,0:06:22.800 development from the whole rest of the 0:06:21.680,0:06:25.360 company 0:06:22.800,0:06:26.160 but uh with going remote now slack is 0:06:25.360,0:06:27.840 where everybody 0:06:26.160,0:06:29.680 lives and so there's just a lot more 0:06:27.840,0:06:32.560 volume going through there 0:06:29.680,0:06:34.639 right slack definitely has its downsides 0:06:32.560,0:06:37.280 as far as uh 0:06:34.639,0:06:38.479 kind of effect on communication um but 0:06:37.280,0:06:39.280 for the most part it's worked pretty 0:06:38.479,0:06:41.600 well for us 0:06:39.280,0:06:42.479 right right the universal slack 0:06:41.600,0:06:45.440 notification 0:06:42.479,0:06:46.960 sound just popping up all over the all 0:06:45.440,0:06:48.560 day long and stuff like that 0:06:46.960,0:06:50.080 yeah um one of the things i mean i 0:06:48.560,0:06:51.360 personally do and this isn't a company 0:06:50.080,0:06:52.720 thing but i actually turned off those 0:06:51.360,0:06:56.080 notifications because 0:06:52.720,0:06:57.280 uh i actually i i was i haven't gone as 0:06:56.080,0:06:59.039 far as you i think you like 0:06:57.280,0:07:00.800 schedule out your day like crazy like 0:06:59.039,0:07:02.639 you know like i said you know 0:07:00.800,0:07:03.599 we were just on twitter dms last night 0:07:02.639,0:07:04.240 and you said oh i checked my email in 0:07:03.599,0:07:06.240 the morning 0:07:04.240,0:07:07.360 um and i remember on twitter when you 0:07:06.240,0:07:08.160 were first talking about kind of putting 0:07:07.360,0:07:10.000 that in place 0:07:08.160,0:07:11.440 i don't go that far but yeah i was like 0:07:10.000,0:07:12.560 partially inspired by that 0:07:11.440,0:07:14.400 i kind of was already doing it but i 0:07:12.560,0:07:16.240 went further this direction basically 0:07:14.400,0:07:17.759 all notifications turned off everywhere 0:07:16.240,0:07:19.360 i still check it a lot more frequently i 0:07:17.759,0:07:20.960 think that probably you do right slack 0:07:19.360,0:07:22.479 or email babysitter but at least it's 0:07:20.960,0:07:23.680 not popping up in my face 0:07:22.479,0:07:25.919 uh it distracts me when i'm trying to 0:07:23.680,0:07:28.240 work on something else yeah 0:07:25.919,0:07:29.840 have you you know it's interesting like 0:07:28.240,0:07:31.440 you you mentioned it's not like a 0:07:29.840,0:07:32.560 company policy necessarily 0:07:31.440,0:07:35.039 that's one of the things i think about 0:07:32.560,0:07:37.120 is like how do you roll those things out 0:07:35.039,0:07:39.599 across the company where it's like 0:07:37.120,0:07:41.280 you want to tell people like hey you 0:07:39.599,0:07:43.199 know protect your time 0:07:41.280,0:07:45.599 try not to get so distracted by all the 0:07:43.199,0:07:47.440 notifications but at the same time 0:07:45.599,0:07:48.879 it might not necessarily be a official 0:07:47.440,0:07:51.120 company policy of turning your 0:07:48.879,0:07:52.400 notifications off you know 0:07:51.120,0:07:53.680 yeah so one thing that we've been 0:07:52.400,0:07:54.319 playing with we haven't actually done 0:07:53.680,0:07:56.240 this yet 0:07:54.319,0:07:57.280 um so you know hi anybody from like a 0:07:56.240,0:07:58.400 team who's actually going to listen to 0:07:57.280,0:08:00.160 this 0:07:58.400,0:08:01.440 but we've actually thought about putting 0:08:00.160,0:08:03.599 surprise 0:08:01.440,0:08:04.479 yeah we've we've thought about putting 0:08:03.599,0:08:06.240 together 0:08:04.479,0:08:08.000 and this is like sounds way more rigid 0:08:06.240,0:08:10.879 than it would actually be like almost an 0:08:08.000,0:08:12.319 sla by communication method just as a 0:08:10.879,0:08:14.479 guideline for expectation 0:08:12.319,0:08:16.160 um you know if someone texts you like 0:08:14.479,0:08:17.840 that's like a p1 and so 0:08:16.160,0:08:20.960 the only way i would contact someone on 0:08:17.840,0:08:23.199 my team like off hours if i needed 0:08:20.960,0:08:24.240 like you know p1 emergency major client 0:08:23.199,0:08:26.160 sites down or something 0:08:24.240,0:08:27.440 is i'm going to text them personally 0:08:26.160,0:08:28.240 yeah because i'm not expecting them to 0:08:27.440,0:08:31.280 look at slack 0:08:28.240,0:08:32.880 off hours um and uh 0:08:31.280,0:08:34.640 and so like and then it's like slack is 0:08:32.880,0:08:36.240 probably one level down from that email 0:08:34.640,0:08:37.680 and just kind of set an expectation that 0:08:36.240,0:08:39.680 way of saying 0:08:37.680,0:08:41.360 you know email if you get back to me 0:08:39.680,0:08:44.399 that same day or the next day 0:08:41.360,0:08:45.760 that's fine uh you know no need to 0:08:44.399,0:08:47.360 respond immediately to that 0:08:45.760,0:08:50.560 slack i don't know what what it is but 0:08:47.360,0:08:51.519 maybe within within an hour or two 0:08:50.560,0:08:52.880 you know just kind of setting some 0:08:51.519,0:08:54.240 expectations there i think will be 0:08:52.880,0:08:55.600 helpful um 0:08:54.240,0:08:56.880 we that was actually part of our initial 0:08:55.600,0:08:58.320 plan when we went remote to roll that 0:08:56.880,0:08:59.839 out but there was just so much to do we 0:08:58.320,0:09:03.519 didn't actually get that out yet but 0:08:59.839,0:09:05.839 nice yeah i love that idea like 0:09:03.519,0:09:07.760 yeah i love that idea like sla is by 0:09:05.839,0:09:10.480 communication channel because it's like 0:09:07.760,0:09:12.399 for some people email is immediate it's 0:09:10.480,0:09:14.880 like respond within minutes 0:09:12.399,0:09:15.600 uh i think there's a general expectation 0:09:14.880,0:09:18.959 that it's like 0:09:15.600,0:09:20.560 like you said a day or so ish um whereas 0:09:18.959,0:09:24.080 other channels i think you wanna 0:09:20.560,0:09:26.080 you know get to them more quickly um so 0:09:24.080,0:09:27.200 the company workforce ripen ripen 0:09:26.080,0:09:30.320 digital 0:09:27.200,0:09:32.080 um and uh it's just right there but 0:09:30.320,0:09:34.240 right i'm sorry we do digital stuff 0:09:32.080,0:09:34.240 though 0:09:34.800,0:09:38.000 so what uh what do you guys kind of 0:09:36.480,0:09:39.760 specialize in i know you're obviously in 0:09:38.000,0:09:41.200 the e-commerce space and 0:09:39.760,0:09:43.760 uh stuff like that but what do you guys 0:09:41.200,0:09:47.040 specialize in what makes you guys unique 0:09:43.760,0:09:48.560 yeah so um we we were very generalist 0:09:47.040,0:09:49.920 for a long time and we still 0:09:48.560,0:09:52.560 are generalist in the sense that we 0:09:49.920,0:09:55.519 would take on e-commerce projects of 0:09:52.560,0:09:56.240 of pretty much any shape or size we 0:09:55.519,0:09:58.000 really don't 0:09:56.240,0:09:59.760 or try to stay as much as possible from 0:09:58.000,0:10:00.640 anything that's not truly e-commerce 0:09:59.760,0:10:02.880 related 0:10:00.640,0:10:04.720 but i would say kind of over the last 0:10:02.880,0:10:05.440 couple of years like three main areas 0:10:04.720,0:10:07.279 have 0:10:05.440,0:10:09.680 evolved as particular strength areas for 0:10:07.279,0:10:12.640 us um you know one one of those 0:10:09.680,0:10:14.000 is really content-led design so we we 0:10:12.640,0:10:16.079 have a full content studio 0:10:14.000,0:10:18.480 in-house a video studio a photography 0:10:16.079,0:10:21.120 studio um we can use really high-end 0:10:18.480,0:10:22.160 uh uh content work there so when it 0:10:21.120,0:10:24.320 comes to 0:10:22.160,0:10:25.440 uh like d2c brands that want to have a 0:10:24.320,0:10:28.480 really content-led 0:10:25.440,0:10:30.000 uh approach to their site um in 0:10:28.480,0:10:31.360 those cases the dev team almost you know 0:10:30.000,0:10:32.880 we still are involved but we almost 0:10:31.360,0:10:35.120 received into the background and it's 0:10:32.880,0:10:36.560 it's really our designers uh working 0:10:35.120,0:10:38.320 with page builders but 0:10:36.560,0:10:40.240 doing a really like heavy content driven 0:10:38.320,0:10:41.760 approach 0:10:40.240,0:10:42.880 kind of on the far opposite side of the 0:10:41.760,0:10:43.519 spectrum are kind of our other two 0:10:42.880,0:10:45.920 strengths 0:10:43.519,0:10:47.279 that are much more engineering-led one 0:10:45.920,0:10:50.399 is we've we've built 0:10:47.279,0:10:52.800 a in in-house uh 0:10:50.399,0:10:54.880 product that connects magento with 0:10:52.800,0:10:58.959 profit 21 which is an epicore 0:10:54.880,0:11:01.279 erp and we've been rolling that out to 0:10:58.959,0:11:03.120 a number of clients now it's an 0:11:01.279,0:11:06.800 interesting space because 0:11:03.120,0:11:08.800 the the property 21 erp is specifically 0:11:06.800,0:11:11.360 sold to distributors and wholesalers 0:11:08.800,0:11:12.640 or not exclusively but largely so a lot 0:11:11.360,0:11:15.600 of these 0:11:12.640,0:11:16.959 businesses are doing dual b2b and b2c 0:11:15.600,0:11:19.279 channels simultaneously 0:11:16.959,0:11:21.279 um so they need to straddle the line of 0:11:19.279,0:11:22.480 of both of those sorts of functionality 0:11:21.279,0:11:24.640 um so that's been an interesting 0:11:22.480,0:11:26.720 challenge to work on 0:11:24.640,0:11:28.320 that's kind of the third area that we're 0:11:26.720,0:11:31.440 actually getting more and more into 0:11:28.320,0:11:34.640 is uh just truly custom e-commerce 0:11:31.440,0:11:35.440 uh where their business model is not a 0:11:34.640,0:11:37.120 standard 0:11:35.440,0:11:38.720 like we're gonna buy a widget and ship 0:11:37.120,0:11:40.399 it to your house um 0:11:38.720,0:11:42.000 and uh so we're kind of expanding the 0:11:40.399,0:11:44.079 idea of e-commerce a little more broadly 0:11:42.000,0:11:45.839 and building solutions that don't fit on 0:11:44.079,0:11:47.440 any e-commerce framework so 0:11:45.839,0:11:48.880 um we work with one company that's like 0:11:47.440,0:11:50.560 a medical alerts company 0:11:48.880,0:11:52.800 uh that sells like service like 0:11:50.560,0:11:54.639 dependents for uh for seniors 0:11:52.800,0:11:56.160 um and so the whole purchasing process 0:11:54.639,0:11:57.200 for that that one's a little bit more 0:11:56.160,0:11:58.880 standard but still there's like a 0:11:57.200,0:12:00.000 subscription plan like a sas plan that 0:11:58.880,0:12:02.399 goes behind that 0:12:00.000,0:12:03.600 um working with the telehealth company 0:12:02.399,0:12:05.680 right now to sell 0:12:03.600,0:12:07.839 uh to kind of build the whole like front 0:12:05.680,0:12:10.560 end purchasing process for 0:12:07.839,0:12:10.880 doctors practices to you know purchase a 0:12:10.560,0:12:14.000 a 0:12:10.880,0:12:15.040 telehealth um product so we've you know 0:12:14.000,0:12:16.720 kind of some interesting 0:12:15.040,0:12:18.240 projects along those lines as well 0:12:16.720,0:12:20.639 that's interesting man you're hitting 0:12:18.240,0:12:23.040 like all of the like so many of the 0:12:20.639,0:12:24.800 important trends right now like b2b 0:12:23.040,0:12:26.320 like like content driven stuff 0:12:24.800,0:12:28.480 experiential stuff 0:12:26.320,0:12:30.240 and then like it sounds like headless 0:12:28.480,0:12:31.680 maybe you're like you know ecommerce is 0:12:30.240,0:12:33.920 just super custom 0:12:31.680,0:12:35.519 um which i'd say are like three of the 0:12:33.920,0:12:37.120 strongest trends 0:12:35.519,0:12:39.279 uh in e-commerce right now so that's 0:12:37.120,0:12:40.959 that's pretty interesting 0:12:39.279,0:12:42.560 we've explored headless uh we've 0:12:40.959,0:12:44.480 actually built we haven't actually 0:12:42.560,0:12:45.760 launched a headless e-commerce site yet 0:12:44.480,0:12:48.160 we've launched a number of headless 0:12:45.760,0:12:50.000 uh sites that are i say we stick to 0:12:48.160,0:12:51.519 e-commerce we'll occasionally take on a 0:12:50.000,0:12:52.720 content site if it kind of comes along 0:12:51.519,0:12:54.079 with a client who's we're doing 0:12:52.720,0:12:56.720 e-commerce for them but they want to 0:12:54.079,0:12:58.959 do their corporate site too we've we've 0:12:56.720,0:13:00.560 launched a couple with a cloud cms 0:12:58.959,0:13:01.680 uh and then like a static site build 0:13:00.560,0:13:03.519 that builds off of that and making like 0:13:01.680,0:13:06.720 a headless sense 0:13:03.519,0:13:10.720 for uh either live api driven or a 0:13:06.720,0:13:12.320 static site code uh for content sites uh 0:13:10.720,0:13:14.079 i was really in favor of like the 0:13:12.320,0:13:16.079 headless approach for e-commerce for a 0:13:14.079,0:13:20.399 while i still think it holds a lot of 0:13:16.079,0:13:21.839 potential um but it i i i 0:13:20.399,0:13:23.680 backed off a little bit from it just 0:13:21.839,0:13:26.320 feeling like it's it's really not 0:13:23.680,0:13:28.000 mature enough for a lot of a lot of 0:13:26.320,0:13:31.040 customers of ours to use 0:13:28.000,0:13:33.120 so yeah when we talk about custom it's 0:13:31.040,0:13:34.320 you know it's often you know full custom 0:13:33.120,0:13:36.639 you know head to tail 0:13:34.320,0:13:37.360 so it's you know using serverless models 0:13:36.639,0:13:40.160 and 0:13:37.360,0:13:41.600 uh microservices uh so there's no one 0:13:40.160,0:13:44.160 like monolith platform 0:13:41.600,0:13:44.880 um but it's it's uh it's fully custom 0:13:44.160,0:13:46.800 there's no like 0:13:44.880,0:13:48.000 headless still back-end platform that 0:13:46.800,0:13:48.880 we're talking about gotcha so you're 0:13:48.000,0:13:50.720 just using like 0:13:48.880,0:13:52.079 a payment processor like stripe or 0:13:50.720,0:13:52.959 something like that and then you're just 0:13:52.079,0:13:55.519 building out 0:13:52.959,0:13:56.320 like custom custom code right exactly 0:13:55.519,0:13:59.360 yeah yeah 0:13:56.320,0:14:00.720 that's cool what um what are you more 0:13:59.360,0:14:02.399 like what are you enjoying the most what 0:14:00.720,0:14:03.519 are you the most excited about as far as 0:14:02.399,0:14:05.360 the different like projects you're 0:14:03.519,0:14:07.680 working on 0:14:05.360,0:14:08.720 yeah i think um i mean that third 0:14:07.680,0:14:10.480 category is 0:14:08.720,0:14:12.160 particularly interesting to me because 0:14:10.480,0:14:15.519 it's kind of a new territory 0:14:12.160,0:14:17.760 i mean just again personally speaking 0:14:15.519,0:14:19.120 e-commerce a lot of times feels like 0:14:17.760,0:14:21.199 you're reinventing the wheel 0:14:19.120,0:14:22.240 because you know like oh get about 0:14:21.199,0:14:25.680 another product page 0:14:22.240,0:14:28.480 um it looks it looks it looks at least 0:14:25.680,0:14:30.079 10 different than the last one we built 0:14:28.480,0:14:31.519 and of course you know that 10 0:14:30.079,0:14:32.240 difference required means that you can't 0:14:31.519,0:14:34.880 like 0:14:32.240,0:14:36.399 use oh you can reuse some code and we do 0:14:34.880,0:14:39.040 you use code but like 0:14:36.399,0:14:39.839 there's there's that's 10 different 0:14:39.040,0:14:43.760 still requires you 0:14:39.839,0:14:45.760 to rebuild a lot of stuff 0:14:43.760,0:14:47.920 not really accomplishing anything new so 0:14:45.760,0:14:48.720 i think that third category is really 0:14:47.920,0:14:50.959 exciting 0:14:48.720,0:14:52.560 because you get to work on it's still a 0:14:50.959,0:14:53.839 purchase process but you're building 0:14:52.560,0:14:54.959 something that's 0:14:53.839,0:14:57.199 you know really unique to that 0:14:54.959,0:14:58.880 business's needs rather than just 0:14:57.199,0:15:00.399 another iteration of kind of the same 0:14:58.880,0:15:02.240 thing 0:15:00.399,0:15:04.079 and uh what kind of work do you do day 0:15:02.240,0:15:06.560 to day like do you like what 0:15:04.079,0:15:07.680 percentage coding versus like leadership 0:15:06.560,0:15:09.040 i think you're a director 0:15:07.680,0:15:11.199 engineering director or something like 0:15:09.040,0:15:15.360 that yeah yeah so 0:15:11.199,0:15:16.639 i spend with with the exception carved 0:15:15.360,0:15:18.160 out when i you know i intentionally 0:15:16.639,0:15:19.839 carve it out i spend almost no time 0:15:18.160,0:15:22.639 actually coding myself these days 0:15:19.839,0:15:23.279 okay um uh i do spend a fair amount of 0:15:22.639,0:15:26.800 time 0:15:23.279,0:15:29.839 in in code review in 0:15:26.800,0:15:30.720 architectural reviews uh in discovery to 0:15:29.839,0:15:32.240 you know 0:15:30.720,0:15:34.240 fairly even fairly in-depth technical 0:15:32.240,0:15:35.279 discovery with clients dealing with 0:15:34.240,0:15:37.040 what we're going to build how we're 0:15:35.279,0:15:37.680 going to build it um and then reviewing 0:15:37.040,0:15:39.279 and kind of 0:15:37.680,0:15:41.279 evaluating the process as build out to 0:15:39.279,0:15:43.360 make sure that we're building to quality 0:15:41.279,0:15:44.560 so i'm involved pretty pretty deep in 0:15:43.360,0:15:46.079 some of our projects especially our 0:15:44.560,0:15:48.959 flagship projects 0:15:46.079,0:15:50.399 but i'm not hands-on coding and then i'm 0:15:48.959,0:15:51.920 also part of the leadership team for the 0:15:50.399,0:15:53.600 company so there's some element of my 0:15:51.920,0:15:54.720 time that just goes into kind of company 0:15:53.600,0:15:58.240 management overall 0:15:54.720,0:16:01.519 company stuff do you miss coding 0:15:58.240,0:16:04.720 uh i yes to some degree um 0:16:01.519,0:16:07.360 but i i 0:16:04.720,0:16:08.880 i love the solution design part part of 0:16:07.360,0:16:10.160 it and i still get to do that when i'm 0:16:08.880,0:16:14.000 working on the architecture 0:16:10.160,0:16:15.360 so uh it's not so much that i miss 0:16:14.000,0:16:17.040 coaching it's more than i have to 0:16:15.360,0:16:18.480 i have to miss i have to hold myself 0:16:17.040,0:16:19.519 back from it because i know 0:16:18.480,0:16:21.360 there are things that are higher 0:16:19.519,0:16:22.880 leverage for me to work on and sometimes 0:16:21.360,0:16:24.240 if i'm like oh i could just go in and do 0:16:22.880,0:16:27.040 this myself right now 0:16:24.240,0:16:27.519 um that's what i have to resist is yeah 0:16:27.040,0:16:29.199 there's 0:16:27.519,0:16:30.399 not so much missing but just like okay i 0:16:29.199,0:16:31.279 know this isn't the most important thing 0:16:30.399,0:16:34.320 for me to work on 0:16:31.279,0:16:36.000 priorities prioritizing yeah yeah it's 0:16:34.320,0:16:38.160 it's uh development is a weird thing 0:16:36.000,0:16:40.639 where like so much of the time people 0:16:38.160,0:16:42.800 that no longer code actively 0:16:40.639,0:16:44.880 like miss it in this way that i don't 0:16:42.800,0:16:46.560 know if it's the same in like 0:16:44.880,0:16:48.320 other industries like i don't know if 0:16:46.560,0:16:51.839 people that do construction work 0:16:48.320,0:16:51.839 when they become construction managers 0:16:52.720,0:16:56.320 construction work i don't i don't know 0:16:54.880,0:16:57.600 for sure but i would imagine something 0:16:56.320,0:16:59.279 like that would be true though in like 0:16:57.600,0:17:01.519 other creative fields which i mean 0:16:59.279,0:17:03.040 and that's partially what makes it sure 0:17:01.519,0:17:04.640 about development yeah i would imagine 0:17:03.040,0:17:07.280 the designer who becomes an 0:17:04.640,0:17:08.079 executive creative director might maybe 0:17:07.280,0:17:09.919 i don't know for sure 0:17:08.079,0:17:11.280 not one but might miss getting in there 0:17:09.919,0:17:12.559 with photoshop and actually 0:17:11.280,0:17:14.400 uh you know putting something out or 0:17:12.559,0:17:17.919 design out him himself for herself 0:17:14.400,0:17:18.559 yeah i think so um so when it comes to 0:17:17.919,0:17:20.240 uh 0:17:18.559,0:17:23.280 the various you know e-commerce 0:17:20.240,0:17:25.199 platforms uh magento shopify i don't 0:17:23.280,0:17:28.000 know exactly which ones you guys 0:17:25.199,0:17:29.280 work with big commerce those are the two 0:17:28.000,0:17:30.559 main ones we work with ecommerce a 0:17:29.280,0:17:32.480 little bit as well but okay that's the 0:17:30.559,0:17:34.559 lesser 0:17:32.480,0:17:37.120 what are some things that you're excited 0:17:34.559,0:17:39.840 about you know enjoying learning 0:17:37.120,0:17:40.240 uh and or like particular pain points 0:17:39.840,0:17:41.760 with 0:17:40.240,0:17:43.919 you know the different econ platforms 0:17:41.760,0:17:46.640 that you're using 0:17:43.919,0:17:46.960 yeah so i mean i think uh the the ones 0:17:46.640,0:17:50.400 that 0:17:46.960,0:17:52.480 come to mind uh are the the things that 0:17:50.400,0:17:54.640 everyone knows to some degree about the 0:17:52.480,0:17:55.919 platforms but are just you know they 0:17:54.640,0:17:58.799 they come up in your face every single 0:17:55.919,0:18:00.799 day and um for magento that would be 0:17:58.799,0:18:02.320 the great things about it is how it's 0:18:00.799,0:18:04.400 flexible it is and the 0:18:02.320,0:18:05.520 fantastic user community around it um 0:18:04.400,0:18:07.440 for open source 0:18:05.520,0:18:08.720 um the downside is just the sheer 0:18:07.440,0:18:10.559 complexity of it uh 0:18:08.720,0:18:12.400 you know you know i've got people on my 0:18:10.559,0:18:14.000 team who have been you know working with 0:18:12.400,0:18:17.520 it for years i've been working with 0:18:14.000,0:18:18.880 it for years uh i i go back to like 0:18:17.520,0:18:20.400 very early as the magenta one when i 0:18:18.880,0:18:21.360 first started working on it and and i 0:18:20.400,0:18:23.679 still find stuff 0:18:21.360,0:18:25.200 that i'm like wait how did i not know 0:18:23.679,0:18:26.160 this this entire this entire time like 0:18:25.200,0:18:27.679 because i feel like no 0:18:26.160,0:18:29.520 no single person has all of magento in 0:18:27.679,0:18:30.640 their head i mean 0:18:29.520,0:18:32.640 there are probably a few of those you 0:18:30.640,0:18:35.200 know uh magento masters 0:18:32.640,0:18:36.799 like unicorns yeah right right but for 0:18:35.200,0:18:38.160 the most part like just the level of 0:18:36.799,0:18:40.400 complexity there 0:18:38.160,0:18:41.520 can get in your way on the magento side 0:18:40.400,0:18:42.799 on the shopify side you have the 0:18:41.520,0:18:43.840 opposite problem it's like the whole 0:18:42.799,0:18:45.600 wild garden thing 0:18:43.840,0:18:47.679 and yeah you feel like you're twisting 0:18:45.600,0:18:48.880 the platform to do things that it was 0:18:47.679,0:18:50.559 never intended to do 0:18:48.880,0:18:51.919 these things that should be relatively 0:18:50.559,0:18:54.799 straightforward um 0:18:51.919,0:18:55.120 and we've even had clients who kind of i 0:18:54.799,0:18:56.880 mean 0:18:55.120,0:18:57.679 i you know it's not exactly fair but i 0:18:56.880,0:18:59.120 completely understand where they're 0:18:57.679,0:19:01.120 coming from who kind of get mad 0:18:59.120,0:19:03.039 at us they're like you know why is this 0:19:01.120,0:19:05.600 so com why is it so hard 0:19:03.039,0:19:07.039 to do this thing it should be so simple 0:19:05.600,0:19:08.400 the whole promise of shopify is that 0:19:07.039,0:19:09.600 simple and i'm like well it's because 0:19:08.400,0:19:11.520 your needs are just 0:19:09.600,0:19:13.039 this much outside of whatever shopify 0:19:11.520,0:19:15.039 was designed for and 0:19:13.039,0:19:17.039 now you're twisting this like sash 0:19:15.039,0:19:19.360 platform into this you know kind of a 0:19:17.039,0:19:20.400 knot to make it work yeah you're in the 0:19:19.360,0:19:23.039 danger zone of 0:19:20.400,0:19:25.120 customizing too much right yeah it's 0:19:23.039,0:19:28.080 it's uh it's interesting i've been so 0:19:25.120,0:19:29.520 um magento heavy for so long i'm kind of 0:19:28.080,0:19:30.960 starting to like 0:19:29.520,0:19:33.600 poke my head up and look at some of the 0:19:30.960,0:19:35.280 different platforms and 0:19:33.600,0:19:36.960 try to understand them understand the 0:19:35.280,0:19:39.120 different strengths and weaknesses 0:19:36.960,0:19:40.240 and and and jump into the different 0:19:39.120,0:19:41.600 communities as well 0:19:40.240,0:19:43.440 and you know try to really kind of 0:19:41.600,0:19:45.600 understand them a little bit you know 0:19:43.440,0:19:47.120 yeah and i didn't mention the positive 0:19:45.600,0:19:47.440 for shopify but the positive there i 0:19:47.120,0:19:49.120 mean 0:19:47.440,0:19:50.720 is again the flip exact flip side of 0:19:49.120,0:19:52.240 that is is 0:19:50.720,0:19:53.760 i know theoretically you can set up a 0:19:52.240,0:19:55.120 gentle store in like 0:19:53.760,0:19:57.360 you know an hour or something like that 0:19:55.120,0:19:59.039 if you really know what you're doing and 0:19:57.360,0:20:01.200 don't care to customize anything at all 0:19:59.039,0:20:02.799 um but in that same hour you can have a 0:20:01.200,0:20:04.480 shopify store up with a custom theme 0:20:02.799,0:20:05.840 that's been chosen with you know at 0:20:04.480,0:20:06.559 least brand colors that match what you 0:20:05.840,0:20:07.919 want like 0:20:06.559,0:20:10.000 you're not nearly that far along on the 0:20:07.919,0:20:11.520 magento side and so if you're talking 0:20:10.000,0:20:13.520 about a 0:20:11.520,0:20:15.600 smaller company that just needs to get a 0:20:13.520,0:20:17.600 scrappy ecommerce presence up there 0:20:15.600,0:20:18.960 and um you know maybe even running a 0:20:17.600,0:20:20.559 decent sized business but they just they 0:20:18.960,0:20:22.720 just need to get up live quickly 0:20:20.559,0:20:23.840 uh you just can't beat a sas platform 0:20:22.720,0:20:26.480 for that yeah 0:20:23.840,0:20:26.960 yeah have you um have you looked at 0:20:26.480,0:20:29.120 their 0:20:26.960,0:20:30.400 subscriptions like shopify launched the 0:20:29.120,0:20:33.520 new kind of native 0:20:30.400,0:20:35.280 subscription functionality um and i i'd 0:20:33.520,0:20:35.600 seen you respond to some tweets related 0:20:35.280,0:20:38.720 to 0:20:35.600,0:20:40.640 to the subscription stuff yeah i've i've 0:20:38.720,0:20:42.080 been eagerly awaiting that because 0:20:40.640,0:20:44.080 uh every time that we have a client that 0:20:42.080,0:20:47.360 comes on board uh 0:20:44.080,0:20:49.360 who uh needs subscriptions um i'm like 0:20:47.360,0:20:51.120 uh do we do we tell them to hold out 0:20:49.360,0:20:51.520 just a little bit longer for this uh you 0:20:51.120,0:20:53.760 know 0:20:51.520,0:20:55.760 golden day of you know native magento or 0:20:53.760,0:20:59.679 not magenta shopify subscriptions 0:20:55.760,0:21:01.840 um and uh we really 0:20:59.679,0:21:03.039 have have upton now always pushed 0:21:01.840,0:21:05.840 everyone toward 0:21:03.039,0:21:07.120 uh we experimented with a few options 0:21:05.840,0:21:08.480 recurring was the one that we kind of 0:21:07.120,0:21:10.720 number currently um 0:21:08.480,0:21:12.640 we use that outside of shopify uh 0:21:10.720,0:21:15.760 recharge is the one that we 0:21:12.640,0:21:16.640 really that's a big one i see a lot of 0:21:15.760,0:21:19.360 people 0:21:16.640,0:21:20.080 running into issues with recharge and 0:21:19.360,0:21:21.919 like 0:21:20.080,0:21:24.000 i see a lot of people post on that about 0:21:21.919,0:21:27.200 three recharge recharge has 0:21:24.000,0:21:28.720 you know has challenges uh without 0:21:27.200,0:21:29.840 naming names we've used some of their 0:21:28.720,0:21:32.880 competitors and they're 0:21:29.840,0:21:32.880 worse so okay 0:21:33.039,0:21:37.679 it's like the thing is before i 0:21:36.480,0:21:39.039 first workshop subscriptions for the 0:21:37.679,0:21:40.400 first time i'm like oh you know how hard 0:21:39.039,0:21:41.120 can it be you just charge them somebody 0:21:40.400,0:21:44.400 every month 0:21:41.120,0:21:45.679 like i really don't know how to explain 0:21:44.400,0:21:46.720 to someone who hasn't literally written 0:21:45.679,0:21:49.039 subscription code 0:21:46.720,0:21:50.480 how complex and thorny this gets like it 0:21:49.039,0:21:51.520 doesn't just it doesn't seem like it 0:21:50.480,0:21:54.000 should be that bad 0:21:51.520,0:21:55.919 but it is is a naughty problem when you 0:21:54.000,0:21:57.200 get into all the nuances and edge cases 0:21:55.919,0:21:59.520 the pause against 0:21:57.200,0:22:01.360 you know rescheduling and fixing the 0:21:59.520,0:22:02.880 recharge or uh 0:22:01.360,0:22:05.039 renewal dates like that common day of 0:22:02.880,0:22:06.000 the month like manual overrides and all 0:22:05.039,0:22:07.520 sorts of stuff 0:22:06.000,0:22:09.840 right you know changes in payment 0:22:07.520,0:22:11.679 methods and um dunning to update their 0:22:09.840,0:22:12.559 your credit card information when their 0:22:11.679,0:22:15.919 number changes 0:22:12.559,0:22:17.919 and right it's there's just it's a 0:22:15.919,0:22:19.280 it's like it's like there's like layers 0:22:17.919,0:22:21.360 layers and layers 0:22:19.280,0:22:22.559 yeah yeah and it seems like there's 0:22:21.360,0:22:24.159 still um 0:22:22.559,0:22:25.600 some issues with i haven't worked with 0:22:24.159,0:22:27.200 it too closely but 0:22:25.600,0:22:29.039 um it seems like there's issues with 0:22:27.200,0:22:32.640 with migrating uh 0:22:29.039,0:22:34.000 into the new uh functionality and 0:22:32.640,0:22:35.919 yeah i kind of dropped the lead earlier 0:22:34.000,0:22:39.120 but yeah that's that's the 0:22:35.919,0:22:40.480 you know a lot of our clients 0:22:39.120,0:22:42.159 aren't ready to move to that new 0:22:40.480,0:22:44.799 platform until it's it's 0:22:42.159,0:22:46.240 more clearly tested and ready to go i 0:22:44.799,0:22:48.480 think if we did have 0:22:46.240,0:22:49.520 new new clients uh who were just 0:22:48.480,0:22:50.720 launching a store 0:22:49.520,0:22:52.960 i think we would definitely go with the 0:22:50.720,0:22:54.159 subscription uh 0:22:52.960,0:22:56.559 well actually you really have no choice 0:22:54.159,0:22:58.799 now because uh when when all their 0:22:56.559,0:23:01.039 partners that ran subscriptions through 0:22:58.799,0:23:02.240 uh the you know they were on the app 0:23:01.039,0:23:03.919 store uh 0:23:02.240,0:23:05.600 launch is kind of the same simultaneous 0:23:03.919,0:23:06.880 launch all of their old versions of 0:23:05.600,0:23:08.159 their apps just dropped off the app 0:23:06.880,0:23:09.919 store simultaneously so actually you 0:23:08.159,0:23:12.640 have no choice but to use the new model 0:23:09.919,0:23:13.760 going forward right right but i think 0:23:12.640,0:23:15.039 that's a good thing it's definitely 0:23:13.760,0:23:18.320 better to build on that 0:23:15.039,0:23:18.720 yeah so most of your current um clients 0:23:18.320,0:23:21.200 that are 0:23:18.720,0:23:22.640 doing subscription stuff are on recharge 0:23:21.200,0:23:24.880 do you have any that are on 0:23:22.640,0:23:27.600 um and are most of them on shopify or 0:23:24.880,0:23:30.960 any that are on magento as well 0:23:27.600,0:23:32.559 uh so we do have uh actually one of our 0:23:30.960,0:23:34.320 uh biggest subscription clients is on 0:23:32.559,0:23:37.440 magento and we actually use 0:23:34.320,0:23:38.720 um we don't use a sas uh or external 0:23:37.440,0:23:40.240 like service there 0:23:38.720,0:23:41.840 we actually use the paradox lab 0:23:40.240,0:23:45.039 subscription module um 0:23:41.840,0:23:47.200 which is uh uh fantastic um so 0:23:45.039,0:23:48.159 if you're gonna run subscriptions on on 0:23:47.200,0:23:50.240 magento i 0:23:48.159,0:23:52.640 highly recommend that module it's not a 0:23:50.240,0:23:54.159 cheap module but it's it's totally pays 0:23:52.640,0:23:55.760 for itself off i'm i don't work for 0:23:54.159,0:23:56.720 paradox labs but you know you know this 0:23:55.760,0:23:59.919 is my little uh free 0:23:56.720,0:24:01.840 free advert for them here nice um yeah 0:23:59.919,0:24:03.440 now that you mentioned that now that you 0:24:01.840,0:24:04.880 mentioned i i think i remember seeing 0:24:03.440,0:24:08.320 you guys tweeting about that 0:24:04.880,0:24:09.200 at one point um so is that one a lot 0:24:08.320,0:24:11.440 better than like 0:24:09.200,0:24:13.440 recharge um for different things that 0:24:11.440,0:24:15.760 you need to do 0:24:13.440,0:24:17.600 so i mean it's hard to say because 0:24:15.760,0:24:19.520 they're just they're so different i mean 0:24:17.600,0:24:20.880 one is a module that fits right into 0:24:19.520,0:24:21.840 magento and so there's definitely 0:24:20.880,0:24:23.600 advantages 0:24:21.840,0:24:25.039 to that you can customize and extend the 0:24:23.600,0:24:26.559 behavior however you want that and that 0:24:25.039,0:24:27.279 was really important for this one client 0:24:26.559,0:24:28.240 of ours 0:24:27.279,0:24:30.080 they actually considered going on 0:24:28.240,0:24:31.600 shopify when they were well abandoned 0:24:30.080,0:24:34.880 magento 0:24:31.600,0:24:36.400 um and a number of years ago now we took 0:24:34.880,0:24:38.240 over their site and they re-platformed 0:24:36.400,0:24:39.760 them onto magento 2 and we considered 0:24:38.240,0:24:42.320 shopify for them at that point 0:24:39.760,0:24:43.520 but they they do a lot of really nuanced 0:24:42.320,0:24:45.360 stuff with their subscriptions and they 0:24:43.520,0:24:46.640 want to really fine-tune how it works 0:24:45.360,0:24:48.640 in a way that would have been a 0:24:46.640,0:24:50.480 nightmare to do on any i mean 0:24:48.640,0:24:52.400 even with the new subscriptions platform 0:24:50.480,0:24:54.000 like you want to have fine grain control 0:24:52.400,0:24:55.760 over exactly how it's working 0:24:54.000,0:24:58.480 so that's where magento with the paradox 0:24:55.760,0:25:00.000 labs module is great because we can 0:24:58.480,0:25:01.520 extend and override that behavior 0:25:00.000,0:25:03.440 however we 0:25:01.520,0:25:05.200 at the same time there's an advantage of 0:25:03.440,0:25:07.360 just having a sas 0:25:05.200,0:25:08.880 tool that just does it if you don't even 0:25:07.360,0:25:10.400 need that yeah 0:25:08.880,0:25:12.080 what are some of those things that 0:25:10.400,0:25:13.440 they're doing to really get in there and 0:25:12.080,0:25:16.000 override and do some 0:25:13.440,0:25:17.279 unique things with subscriptions to the 0:25:16.000,0:25:20.720 extent that you can share 0:25:17.279,0:25:23.760 any of that yeah um so 0:25:20.720,0:25:26.880 i'm trying to think of a good example um 0:25:23.760,0:25:28.240 well so one option is and and this has 0:25:26.880,0:25:30.640 improved over time with 0:25:28.240,0:25:32.320 uh the have the sas platforms um though 0:25:30.640,0:25:34.720 it's still not fantastic 0:25:32.320,0:25:35.440 um and it actually changes but um 0:25:34.720,0:25:36.400 actually i mean 0:25:35.440,0:25:39.039 i can see the client the client's 0:25:36.400,0:25:40.640 munchpak um they've uh you know 0:25:39.039,0:25:42.400 we have no ndas let's see the same to 0:25:40.640,0:25:44.960 our client um but uh 0:25:42.400,0:25:45.520 they used to offer a preferences option 0:25:44.960,0:25:46.880 where 0:25:45.520,0:25:48.799 and it's a snack pack like you get like 0:25:46.880,0:25:49.840 a box with snacks delivered for snacks 0:25:48.799,0:25:51.919 from all around the world 0:25:49.840,0:25:53.200 um and uh they're used to they used to 0:25:51.919,0:25:54.080 offer a preferences option right you 0:25:53.200,0:25:57.679 could 0:25:54.080,0:25:57.679 yeah you should yeah go buy munchpak 0:25:57.840,0:26:03.600 um but uh these are a preferences option 0:26:01.919,0:26:04.400 where you could say i want salty snacks 0:26:03.600,0:26:06.320 and i want 0:26:04.400,0:26:07.919 um i don't want fish flavored snacks 0:26:06.320,0:26:08.799 which i mean in other parts of the world 0:26:07.919,0:26:10.080 that seems like weird like for an 0:26:08.799,0:26:12.480 american palette but there are fish 0:26:10.080,0:26:13.120 flavored like chips for example you know 0:26:12.480,0:26:14.400 they're sold 0:26:13.120,0:26:16.320 but like you can say i don't want this 0:26:14.400,0:26:18.720 or i do want this and 0:26:16.320,0:26:19.919 uh being able to keep track of that kind 0:26:18.720,0:26:24.080 of custom options 0:26:19.919,0:26:25.440 um on the subscriptions in the past when 0:26:24.080,0:26:26.960 we were first launching this was kind of 0:26:25.440,0:26:28.960 a weak point for a lot of those 0:26:26.960,0:26:30.000 out of the box or like shopify app based 0:26:28.960,0:26:32.000 subscriptions 0:26:30.000,0:26:34.080 even now it would be a little bit 0:26:32.000,0:26:36.960 trickier for us to include that than 0:26:34.080,0:26:38.799 it was on on magento gotcha so having 0:26:36.960,0:26:41.919 stuff like product option like like 0:26:38.799,0:26:44.480 options on on pro on the product kind of 0:26:41.919,0:26:45.679 object you can do that but i mean really 0:26:44.480,0:26:46.960 that's that's almost a shopify 0:26:45.679,0:26:49.600 limitation intrinsically 0:26:46.960,0:26:50.640 you can do custom options on products 0:26:49.600,0:26:52.720 but 0:26:50.640,0:26:54.640 it's it's all really buried under the 0:26:52.720,0:26:56.080 hood and so there's not a lot of first 0:26:54.640,0:26:59.840 class support for that where it's just 0:26:56.080,0:27:01.600 it's you know just standard with magento 0:26:59.840,0:27:03.120 so this is kind of a random question 0:27:01.600,0:27:04.799 that came up on twitter that i want to 0:27:03.120,0:27:08.320 like just bounce around was this 0:27:04.799,0:27:11.039 this micro services sas thing where like 0:27:08.320,0:27:12.799 um a buddy of mine was asking like like 0:27:11.039,0:27:13.279 an e-commerce store that has a bunch of 0:27:12.799,0:27:15.360 sass 0:27:13.279,0:27:17.200 plug-ins right like we're talking about 0:27:15.360,0:27:18.720 subscriptions you can think of reviews 0:27:17.200,0:27:19.840 you can think of a hundred other types 0:27:18.720,0:27:22.720 of 0:27:19.840,0:27:23.440 and the question is like is that a micro 0:27:22.720,0:27:26.320 services 0:27:23.440,0:27:28.320 architecture um which i think the 0:27:26.320,0:27:30.480 definition of you know microservices 0:27:28.320,0:27:32.559 is that they're highly maintainable 0:27:30.480,0:27:34.399 testable loosely coupled 0:27:32.559,0:27:36.480 independently deployable organized 0:27:34.399,0:27:39.600 around business capabilities 0:27:36.480,0:27:41.360 and owned by a small team so i want to i 0:27:39.600,0:27:42.159 want to bounce this around with you i'm 0:27:41.360,0:27:43.679 curious 0:27:42.159,0:27:45.200 what you think about i think in the i 0:27:43.679,0:27:46.240 think on twitter you said that it was a 0:27:45.200,0:27:49.039 hybrid 0:27:46.240,0:27:50.480 architecture right right and someone and 0:27:49.039,0:27:50.960 i forget who it was replied back and 0:27:50.480,0:27:52.399 followed 0:27:50.960,0:27:54.080 up and said well you know the term for 0:27:52.399,0:27:55.840 that is hub and spoke and actually when 0:27:54.080,0:27:57.360 i first wrote my tweet i was thinking of 0:27:55.840,0:27:57.760 saying oh it's a hubband's book but then 0:27:57.360,0:28:00.399 i 0:27:57.760,0:28:01.840 had googled myself and and i only came 0:28:00.399,0:28:02.559 up because like second guessing is that 0:28:01.840,0:28:04.320 the right term 0:28:02.559,0:28:05.840 um and i only came up with like other 0:28:04.320,0:28:06.720 usages of it so now like i'm not going 0:28:05.840,0:28:09.039 to say that 0:28:06.720,0:28:10.799 i'm just going to say yeah i mean that 0:28:09.039,0:28:13.120 was the favorite algebra 0:28:10.799,0:28:14.480 that sounds right yeah um i think the 0:28:13.120,0:28:16.559 hub and spoke model 0:28:14.480,0:28:17.760 um i mean that that is conceptually you 0:28:16.559,0:28:18.559 know what it is you can still have that 0:28:17.760,0:28:20.720 central 0:28:18.559,0:28:21.840 monolith that's in the middle there um 0:28:20.720,0:28:23.840 but you've 0:28:21.840,0:28:26.320 you've moved out some of the core 0:28:23.840,0:28:29.840 features to an external service 0:28:26.320,0:28:31.520 i think to the degree uh if it breaks 0:28:29.840,0:28:32.559 down it's considering the microservices 0:28:31.520,0:28:34.080 it's to degree that they're actually 0:28:32.559,0:28:35.200 micro because a lot of those external 0:28:34.080,0:28:37.039 services are 0:28:35.200,0:28:38.799 pretty macro in terms of the 0:28:37.039,0:28:40.480 functionality that they have within them 0:28:38.799,0:28:42.720 um but at least you've you've kind of 0:28:40.480,0:28:46.000 moved paradigmatically in 0:28:42.720,0:28:49.360 in that direction yeah so like 0:28:46.000,0:28:51.120 so the hub and spoke uh so so basically 0:28:49.360,0:28:52.399 like a true micro cert like 0:28:51.120,0:28:54.000 i'm trying to think of a canonical 0:28:52.399,0:28:55.600 example of microservices and i keep 0:28:54.000,0:28:58.240 thinking of twitter although i don't 0:28:55.600,0:28:59.360 know if that's exactly a micro services 0:28:58.240,0:29:01.279 but i think of like 0:28:59.360,0:29:03.840 the search service and the messaging 0:29:01.279,0:29:04.720 service i assume that's a micro services 0:29:03.840,0:29:07.120 architecture 0:29:04.720,0:29:08.480 but that's the example i keep i'm not 0:29:07.120,0:29:10.880 sure what their internal 0:29:08.480,0:29:12.799 uh architecture is i know one in the 0:29:10.880,0:29:15.279 e-commerce world one company 0:29:12.799,0:29:17.200 that went crazy i mean i'm gonna be in a 0:29:15.279,0:29:18.880 negative sense but they went like 0:29:17.200,0:29:20.559 full bore in the microservice direction 0:29:18.880,0:29:22.080 was jet.com okay 0:29:20.559,0:29:23.600 i actually had attended a talk with with 0:29:22.080,0:29:26.000 one of their engineers 0:29:23.600,0:29:27.919 like a local meetup okay and i mean they 0:29:26.000,0:29:30.559 they carved everything into 0:29:27.919,0:29:31.520 really small microservices um and you 0:29:30.559,0:29:34.480 know 0:29:31.520,0:29:35.840 and uh you know i i i couldn't name all 0:29:34.480,0:29:36.960 the details there but like i think they 0:29:35.840,0:29:38.559 had like a 0:29:36.960,0:29:40.080 a pricing microservice or even multiple 0:29:38.559,0:29:40.480 pricing microservices depending on like 0:29:40.080,0:29:42.960 what 0:29:40.480,0:29:44.159 the individual need was there and then 0:29:42.960,0:29:45.039 and then you had an inventory 0:29:44.159,0:29:46.080 microservice and 0:29:45.039,0:29:48.320 i mean in some degree that's kind of 0:29:46.080,0:29:48.880 what you see magento going toward with 0:29:48.320,0:29:51.760 all of its 0:29:48.880,0:29:53.039 different uh carving up of modules but 0:29:51.760,0:29:54.080 you know they had done that when 0:29:53.039,0:29:56.159 on the completely their own custom 0:29:54.080,0:29:59.360 platform it wasn't it wasn't 0:29:56.159,0:30:01.600 right right official right 0:29:59.360,0:30:03.440 right and like i think like search for 0:30:01.600,0:30:05.600 example is probably a good example of a 0:30:03.440,0:30:08.399 microservice 0:30:05.600,0:30:09.039 one of the pieces of functionality um 0:30:08.399,0:30:12.080 and like 0:30:09.039,0:30:15.120 that could be pretty that could be a big 0:30:12.080,0:30:18.000 like feature in the sense of it could be 0:30:15.120,0:30:19.360 a lot of code behind that right you 0:30:18.000,0:30:21.120 could have a lot of data you could 0:30:19.360,0:30:24.399 probably even have a decent sized team 0:30:21.120,0:30:27.760 behind that right um so like what like 0:30:24.399,0:30:29.520 is it micro or not like uh you could say 0:30:27.760,0:30:31.120 search is like that's not very micro 0:30:29.520,0:30:31.520 like that's like a d that's a decent 0:30:31.120,0:30:34.000 size 0:30:31.520,0:30:34.640 feature uh right but i feel like that 0:30:34.000,0:30:37.760 would still 0:30:34.640,0:30:40.480 fit into a microservices kind of a model 0:30:37.760,0:30:41.200 um yeah and then like i think i think to 0:30:40.480,0:30:42.640 me 0:30:41.200,0:30:44.559 i mean there is certainly a degree to 0:30:42.640,0:30:45.840 which the volume of code is relevant for 0:30:44.559,0:30:48.480 whether it's a microservice 0:30:45.840,0:30:50.399 but i think a lot of that is almost to 0:30:48.480,0:30:51.520 borrow kind of the object oriented con 0:30:50.399,0:30:53.520 like a principle like a single 0:30:51.520,0:30:56.559 responsibility uh principle 0:30:53.520,0:30:58.320 uh where uh is this is this 0:30:56.559,0:30:59.679 one thing or like to borrow from like a 0:30:58.320,0:31:01.760 domain driven design uh 0:30:59.679,0:31:03.279 model where like is this is this like 0:31:01.760,0:31:05.679 one action or one 0:31:03.279,0:31:07.279 or one uh domain object that you're kind 0:31:05.679,0:31:08.720 of interacting with there or is it 0:31:07.279,0:31:10.559 mixing a whole bunch of different things 0:31:08.720,0:31:12.640 together and 0:31:10.559,0:31:14.159 uh so if you think of like say take 0:31:12.640,0:31:17.200 subscriptions if you take 0:31:14.159,0:31:18.159 something like recharge and in your 0:31:17.200,0:31:19.919 model you're thinking of 0:31:18.159,0:31:21.200 recharge is the micro service well 0:31:19.919,0:31:22.320 recharge is doing a whole bunch of 0:31:21.200,0:31:24.399 things 0:31:22.320,0:31:26.080 and the customers and accounts and and 0:31:24.399,0:31:28.320 orders and invoices 0:31:26.080,0:31:29.840 and so that's you know maybe each of 0:31:28.320,0:31:34.559 those individual things 0:31:29.840,0:31:34.559 are microservices in a sense um but 0:31:34.799,0:31:38.399 i probably would be not great to call 0:31:37.600,0:31:41.120 recur or 0:31:38.399,0:31:41.919 recharge as a whole a microservice a 0:31:41.120,0:31:44.640 microservice 0:31:41.919,0:31:46.880 but then like if you had the um like 0:31:44.640,0:31:50.000 like in the jet example 0:31:46.880,0:31:53.360 um i mean i could imagine 0:31:50.000,0:31:54.960 like your subscription you know 0:31:53.360,0:31:57.440 functionality could be 0:31:54.960,0:31:59.440 a so if if the subscription 0:31:57.440,0:32:01.120 functionality wasn't the micro service 0:31:59.440,0:32:02.720 let's say in the jet.com example 0:32:01.120,0:32:04.720 theoretical example 0:32:02.720,0:32:06.799 how would it break like how would it be 0:32:04.720,0:32:10.279 broken down 0:32:06.799,0:32:13.919 into component parts that were more 0:32:10.279,0:32:16.399 microservicey than the subscriptions 0:32:13.919,0:32:17.840 as a whole well i mean you could for 0:32:16.399,0:32:19.919 example have 0:32:17.840,0:32:21.360 like your literal core subscription 0:32:19.919,0:32:23.679 microservice that 0:32:21.360,0:32:25.600 isn't responsible for keeping track of 0:32:23.679,0:32:28.640 promos or keeping track of accounts 0:32:25.600,0:32:31.840 but literally is responsible for 0:32:28.640,0:32:33.600 handling the the reorders you know just 0:32:31.840,0:32:35.679 the subscription on this date 0:32:33.600,0:32:37.120 on this date it's to do for the next 0:32:35.679,0:32:38.559 renewal of the subscription i'm going to 0:32:37.120,0:32:40.480 go ahead and place that order 0:32:38.559,0:32:42.000 right right and you know i mean if 0:32:40.480,0:32:44.000 that's a service i don't 0:32:42.000,0:32:46.159 you know or is that a background job but 0:32:44.000,0:32:46.880 um just like that that kind of a carving 0:32:46.159,0:32:48.720 off of a 0:32:46.880,0:32:49.919 of a small piece of functionality i 0:32:48.720,0:32:51.360 would say that that's where you would 0:32:49.919,0:32:53.440 you'd want to keep a micro service to 0:32:51.360,0:32:55.440 like that level of scope right 0:32:53.440,0:32:57.360 right yeah i don't know it's just a it's 0:32:55.440,0:32:58.559 it was a random thing that it's stuck in 0:32:57.360,0:33:00.000 my head and i don't know why i keep 0:32:58.559,0:33:01.679 thinking about it i'm not 0:33:00.000,0:33:03.039 like uh i'm not a huge what's the 0:33:01.679,0:33:04.720 technical developers 0:33:03.039,0:33:07.679 love to debate because it's semantics i 0:33:04.720,0:33:07.679 mean like like 0:33:08.840,0:33:12.880 exactly 0:33:10.159,0:33:14.559 you what is the micro service well 0:33:12.880,0:33:16.720 anything larger than a macro service i 0:33:14.559,0:33:16.720 mean 0:33:17.679,0:33:21.519 but is it what is it what the intent of 0:33:20.240,0:33:22.720 microservices was well 0:33:21.519,0:33:24.080 you can almost look like a spectrum 0:33:22.720,0:33:25.440 you're moving that direction but you're 0:33:24.080,0:33:28.080 probably not all the way to 0:33:25.440,0:33:28.960 a proper microservice it's just it's 0:33:28.080,0:33:31.679 funny because 0:33:28.960,0:33:32.640 i i think what stuck out to uh to me 0:33:31.679,0:33:34.480 about it 0:33:32.640,0:33:36.320 was that like i heard a lot of talk 0:33:34.480,0:33:38.240 around microservices kind of in the same 0:33:36.320,0:33:40.159 way we heard about headless it's like 0:33:38.240,0:33:41.760 there's a lot of excitement around it 0:33:40.159,0:33:43.919 maybe from a developer 0:33:41.760,0:33:45.440 uh perspective but then fast forward a 0:33:43.919,0:33:47.679 few years and you go like ah nobody's 0:33:45.440,0:33:50.960 really doing this except for like 0:33:47.679,0:33:53.360 rare cases of like you know companies 0:33:50.960,0:33:54.720 um and then i go wait a minute 0:33:53.360,0:33:56.559 everybody's doing this 0:33:54.720,0:33:58.799 like everybody that is following this 0:33:56.559,0:33:59.600 kind of e-commerce platform and sas 0:33:58.799,0:34:01.360 plugins is 0:33:59.600,0:34:02.559 actually doing this thing that i thought 0:34:01.360,0:34:04.240 was going to happen but then didn't 0:34:02.559,0:34:05.120 really happen but then oh wow it is 0:34:04.240,0:34:07.519 happening 0:34:05.120,0:34:08.240 um i think that was why i kind of like 0:34:07.519,0:34:10.480 you know 0:34:08.240,0:34:12.480 it stuck out and i think even outside of 0:34:10.480,0:34:15.119 like that sas model where you have those 0:34:12.480,0:34:15.599 you know hub and big spokes um worth 0:34:15.119,0:34:17.599 like 0:34:15.599,0:34:19.359 third parties um i think that is the 0:34:17.599,0:34:20.000 approach that you're seeing a lot more 0:34:19.359,0:34:21.919 of even 0:34:20.000,0:34:23.200 for you know boutique you know in 0:34:21.919,0:34:26.079 in-house software 0:34:23.200,0:34:27.040 is something of a monolith that's that's 0:34:26.079,0:34:28.960 still there 0:34:27.040,0:34:30.879 but then micro services that get carved 0:34:28.960,0:34:32.480 off because that particular piece 0:34:30.879,0:34:34.960 makes sense to maintain separately you 0:34:32.480,0:34:38.320 know we need to scale it independently 0:34:34.960,0:34:39.440 or um it's a very domain bounded context 0:34:38.320,0:34:40.320 that we can say look 0:34:39.440,0:34:42.240 we're going to have a team that's 0:34:40.320,0:34:42.639 specific to this who works on this piece 0:34:42.240,0:34:45.919 and 0:34:42.639,0:34:47.520 have a clear api that talks to it 0:34:45.919,0:34:49.119 right but there was definitely a 0:34:47.520,0:34:50.399 microservices craze where it was like 0:34:49.119,0:34:52.560 microservice all the things 0:34:50.399,0:34:54.079 um and that's you know probably was was 0:34:52.560,0:34:55.599 overkill yeah 0:34:54.079,0:34:57.200 and then the other thing i'm trying to 0:34:55.599,0:34:59.680 think about is like are 0:34:57.200,0:35:00.640 those sas services loosely coupled or 0:34:59.680,0:35:03.119 not 0:35:00.640,0:35:04.480 um it's another kind of a semantics 0:35:03.119,0:35:07.119 thing i think a little bit 0:35:04.480,0:35:07.760 what exactly does loosely coupled mean 0:35:07.119,0:35:09.839 like 0:35:07.760,0:35:13.280 in theory could you replace it on the 0:35:09.839,0:35:15.599 fly with nothing at all breaking 0:35:13.280,0:35:16.800 no probably not although in certain 0:35:15.599,0:35:18.560 instances you can 0:35:16.800,0:35:20.720 certain like interfaces for certain 0:35:18.560,0:35:23.839 types of things are pluggable 0:35:20.720,0:35:26.560 um but like in reality even if like 0:35:23.839,0:35:28.320 jet.com had a microservice change like 0:35:26.560,0:35:30.480 most likely things would break 0:35:28.320,0:35:32.720 if something got swapped out with their 0:35:30.480,0:35:34.960 one of their pricing microservices 0:35:32.720,0:35:36.640 like i'd imagine so that's another thing 0:35:34.960,0:35:37.599 i'm i'm trying to think through whether 0:35:36.640,0:35:39.359 or not 0:35:37.599,0:35:40.960 you would consider them loosely coupled 0:35:39.359,0:35:42.320 or not you know 0:35:40.960,0:35:44.400 so i mean like if you think about it in 0:35:42.320,0:35:45.440 like a php sense you're loosely coupling 0:35:44.400,0:35:47.760 depends a lot 0:35:45.440,0:35:48.480 on i mean you can do without this but 0:35:47.760,0:35:49.920 it's greatly 0:35:48.480,0:35:51.760 helped by using something like an 0:35:49.920,0:35:52.960 interface that defines what that 0:35:51.760,0:35:55.440 standard communication 0:35:52.960,0:35:56.800 is it's like the api for that class so 0:35:55.440,0:35:59.760 to some degree 0:35:56.800,0:36:01.119 if you could have an in the sas 0:35:59.760,0:36:03.839 equivalent of a 0:36:01.119,0:36:05.280 interface um that defines like how you 0:36:03.839,0:36:08.160 communicate between two different 0:36:05.280,0:36:09.440 pieces of sas software then those could 0:36:08.160,0:36:10.640 be loosely coupled from each other the 0:36:09.440,0:36:11.680 problem is it doesn't typically exist 0:36:10.640,0:36:13.680 unless you're using like a true 0:36:11.680,0:36:16.720 middleware solution 0:36:13.680,0:36:18.240 so then uh you do end up with tight 0:36:16.720,0:36:18.880 coupling because you're having to call 0:36:18.240,0:36:21.119 the 0:36:18.880,0:36:22.400 other api the other sas servers with the 0:36:21.119,0:36:23.680 idiosyncrasies of their particular 0:36:22.400,0:36:25.119 implementation 0:36:23.680,0:36:26.000 without that interface that says okay 0:36:25.119,0:36:27.599 this is the standard that we're all 0:36:26.000,0:36:29.280 going to abide by 0:36:27.599,0:36:31.200 and i haven't dug into like the new 0:36:29.280,0:36:32.079 shopify subscriptions far enough to know 0:36:31.200,0:36:34.640 100 0:36:32.079,0:36:35.359 for sure how it works but um from what i 0:36:34.640,0:36:36.720 have read 0:36:35.359,0:36:38.160 i think some degree that is part of what 0:36:36.720,0:36:39.280 it's doing i mean part of it is shopify 0:36:38.160,0:36:41.119 is just taking over 0:36:39.280,0:36:42.400 part of the functionality but part of it 0:36:41.119,0:36:44.240 is they are providing this 0:36:42.400,0:36:46.000 standard interface that says okay you 0:36:44.240,0:36:47.359 want to talk to a subscription platform 0:36:46.000,0:36:49.520 here's what the interface looks like and 0:36:47.359,0:36:49.920 whether that platform is is us on our 0:36:49.520,0:36:53.119 own 0:36:49.920,0:36:54.480 or us plus recharge or us plus bold um 0:36:53.119,0:36:56.640 you have that kind of 0:36:54.480,0:36:58.240 interface that allows you to decouple 0:36:56.640,0:37:01.280 your logic a little bit from those 0:36:58.240,0:37:02.880 parties right right what are um like 0:37:01.280,0:37:05.920 what are some of your favorite 0:37:02.880,0:37:08.079 like architectural challenges um 0:37:05.920,0:37:10.640 when it comes to e-commerce just 0:37:08.079,0:37:14.079 generally like what kinds of problems 0:37:10.640,0:37:17.839 are the most fun for you to try to solve 0:37:14.079,0:37:20.960 yeah i think that uh whenever 0:37:17.839,0:37:21.680 you're well fun you know you're gonna 0:37:20.960,0:37:23.839 think fun in 0:37:21.680,0:37:26.640 in two ways like literal fun or literal 0:37:23.839,0:37:28.320 like like oh that's fun 0:37:26.640,0:37:30.320 actually the oh that's fine is the 0:37:28.320,0:37:33.040 easier uh answer 0:37:30.320,0:37:34.720 okay let's go that direction and that's 0:37:33.040,0:37:36.800 that's when you have to deal with like a 0:37:34.720,0:37:38.400 data map between two different systems 0:37:36.800,0:37:39.359 that like handle things under like 0:37:38.400,0:37:41.119 different paradigms 0:37:39.359,0:37:43.920 um we had to integrate with one erp 0:37:41.119,0:37:47.200 where like what they called an invoice 0:37:43.920,0:37:50.400 was what magento called an order 0:37:47.200,0:37:51.359 and they didn't have like or 0:37:50.400,0:37:52.800 what they called an invoice was 0:37:51.359,0:37:53.680 basically what magento called an order 0:37:52.800,0:37:55.280 plus an invoice 0:37:53.680,0:37:56.800 but like even then it wasn't like like 0:37:55.280,0:37:58.320 it's not a one-to-one mapping or not 0:37:56.800,0:38:00.079 even a one to two mapping 0:37:58.320,0:38:01.280 it's like it's like this is oriented 0:38:00.079,0:38:02.400 this way this is oriented this way 0:38:01.280,0:38:02.880 they're like perpendicular to each other 0:38:02.400,0:38:05.040 and you're like 0:38:02.880,0:38:06.240 trying to map it back and forth yeah so 0:38:05.040,0:38:07.680 it's definitely a challenge and so it's 0:38:06.240,0:38:09.839 like it's fun in that you know 0:38:07.680,0:38:11.599 in a sincere sense it's fun to have that 0:38:09.839,0:38:12.960 challenge but it's also like 0:38:11.599,0:38:14.160 you know tearing your hair out at the 0:38:12.960,0:38:16.000 same time because you're trying to 0:38:14.160,0:38:18.160 figure out how to get these systems to 0:38:16.000,0:38:19.119 cooperate in a consistent clear way 0:38:18.160,0:38:22.160 right right right 0:38:19.119,0:38:24.320 but when um circling back a little bit 0:38:22.160,0:38:25.920 too we talked about kind of going remote 0:38:24.320,0:38:27.760 and the team your team and stuff like 0:38:25.920,0:38:29.119 that when it comes to hiring i'm trying 0:38:27.760,0:38:32.560 to do a better job of 0:38:29.119,0:38:34.800 talking about hiring on this uh podcast 0:38:32.560,0:38:35.839 um what are some of the biggest 0:38:34.800,0:38:38.640 challenges that 0:38:35.839,0:38:40.000 you know you're facing um or you know on 0:38:38.640,0:38:41.680 like on the flip side things that are 0:38:40.000,0:38:44.880 working particularly well 0:38:41.680,0:38:48.400 as far as hiring goes for you guys 0:38:44.880,0:38:50.880 yeah so um i we haven't seen 0:38:48.400,0:38:52.160 uh we haven't made our first uh remote 0:38:50.880,0:38:54.880 hire yet 0:38:52.160,0:38:55.359 since we've uh you know gone remote but 0:38:54.880,0:38:56.960 we are 0:38:55.359,0:38:58.960 in an interview process right now for 0:38:56.960,0:39:00.079 several well actually i should say in 0:38:58.960,0:39:01.839 engineering we've actually hired a 0:39:00.079,0:39:04.880 couple of roles outside of engineering 0:39:01.839,0:39:06.480 remote um we have a 0:39:04.880,0:39:08.240 business development representative and 0:39:06.480,0:39:09.440 uh account manager who are now like 0:39:08.240,0:39:11.040 outside of our area 0:39:09.440,0:39:12.400 and so we've had to go that whole 0:39:11.040,0:39:13.520 process fully remote but 0:39:12.400,0:39:15.119 engineering-wise 0:39:13.520,0:39:17.520 we're in the interview process right now 0:39:15.119,0:39:20.640 for several a couple positions but 0:39:17.520,0:39:21.040 i haven't actually made it higher yet i 0:39:20.640,0:39:23.359 think 0:39:21.040,0:39:24.880 that so far it hasn't made a huge 0:39:23.359,0:39:27.119 difference just with it with our 0:39:24.880,0:39:28.480 our process because we always had a very 0:39:27.119,0:39:29.119 streamlined process in the first place 0:39:28.480,0:39:31.599 that was 0:39:29.119,0:39:32.960 like an initial phone screen followed by 0:39:31.599,0:39:34.960 an in-person 0:39:32.960,0:39:36.400 interview that was with a couple people 0:39:34.960,0:39:37.440 on the team um 0:39:36.400,0:39:39.280 and kind of talked through software 0:39:37.440,0:39:40.079 architecture principles and a little bit 0:39:39.280,0:39:42.960 of like 0:39:40.079,0:39:44.320 tech stuff um or tech uh language 0:39:42.960,0:39:46.160 features that kind of thing 0:39:44.320,0:39:47.760 yeah and we've mostly just moved that 0:39:46.160,0:39:49.520 online um and 0:39:47.760,0:39:51.040 uh since we haven't made a hire yet it's 0:39:49.520,0:39:52.079 hard to say exactly whether or not we'll 0:39:51.040,0:39:53.200 look back on it and say oh we should 0:39:52.079,0:39:54.960 have done something differently 0:39:53.200,0:39:56.320 but so far in the hiring process i 0:39:54.960,0:39:58.480 haven't found that 0:39:56.320,0:40:00.079 being over a video screen has made a 0:39:58.480,0:40:02.320 whole lot different than being in person 0:40:00.079,0:40:04.000 for that 0:40:02.320,0:40:05.599 i saw somebody the other day that's 0:40:04.000,0:40:08.960 starting to do like um 0:40:05.599,0:40:10.800 uh like asynchronous video interviews 0:40:08.960,0:40:12.160 um where there's like a platform that 0:40:10.800,0:40:14.319 just lets people 0:40:12.160,0:40:16.480 record a video i guess response to 0:40:14.319,0:40:17.839 standard questions 0:40:16.480,0:40:19.520 i just saw that a couple days ago and i 0:40:17.839,0:40:21.440 thought that was a really cool 0:40:19.520,0:40:24.000 uh way to kind of streamline things you 0:40:21.440,0:40:26.079 know yeah i would say one thing that um 0:40:24.000,0:40:27.440 you know going remote has made us 0:40:26.079,0:40:29.200 it hasn't changed our process but it 0:40:27.440,0:40:29.920 changes what we look for in in the 0:40:29.200,0:40:32.480 candidate 0:40:29.920,0:40:33.760 in the sense that i mean communication 0:40:32.480,0:40:35.119 is is always core i mean it's 0:40:33.760,0:40:37.359 so core that i think it's kind of silly 0:40:35.119,0:40:39.040 when people list that as like a tree on 0:40:37.359,0:40:40.160 like a job listing like oh you 0:40:39.040,0:40:42.160 like you would want someone who doesn't 0:40:40.160,0:40:44.000 communicate like of course um 0:40:42.160,0:40:45.599 but i i do think that communication 0:40:44.000,0:40:47.359 skills are all the more important in a 0:40:45.599,0:40:51.920 remote position 0:40:47.359,0:40:54.000 and so we we have uh you know 0:40:51.920,0:40:55.040 i haven't gone this far yet but i've 0:40:54.000,0:40:56.240 even left something like a writing 0:40:55.040,0:40:57.760 sample it's something that i've 0:40:56.240,0:40:59.920 considered putting in place that 0:40:57.760,0:41:01.280 in the past wasn't as critical because 0:40:59.920,0:41:02.240 if someone wrote something out that 0:41:01.280,0:41:04.079 wasn't as clear 0:41:02.240,0:41:06.960 then we can go talk to them just just 0:41:04.079,0:41:08.640 clarify what they mean but 0:41:06.960,0:41:10.160 with things need to be more asynchronous 0:41:08.640,0:41:11.520 actually having a writing sample 0:41:10.160,0:41:13.599 i think is something that we we may put 0:41:11.520,0:41:15.599 into our process so it's clear 0:41:13.599,0:41:16.960 and yeah i've begun to take that a 0:41:15.599,0:41:18.480 little more informally even when i'm 0:41:16.960,0:41:19.119 looking at like resumes and cover 0:41:18.480,0:41:21.280 letters 0:41:19.119,0:41:22.480 um i've i've never been the sore and i'm 0:41:21.280,0:41:23.119 still not the sort to like throw 0:41:22.480,0:41:24.560 someone's 0:41:23.119,0:41:26.800 application out because they had like 0:41:24.560,0:41:28.640 one typo but whereas i might 0:41:26.800,0:41:30.560 used to have i might have had a little 0:41:28.640,0:41:31.760 more grace with like someone just being 0:41:30.560,0:41:33.599 a little bit unclear 0:41:31.760,0:41:35.280 um now i'm like yeah if you're not if 0:41:33.599,0:41:36.160 you're not clear in terms of what you're 0:41:35.280,0:41:38.319 saying 0:41:36.160,0:41:39.200 in your application that's a bad sign 0:41:38.319,0:41:40.960 for what you're going to be like when 0:41:39.200,0:41:43.680 you're rushing in a hurry later on 0:41:40.960,0:41:45.760 yeah yeah i'm similar like i don't 0:41:43.680,0:41:47.839 there's only a couple typos 0:41:45.760,0:41:49.440 that are like a deal but for some reason 0:41:47.839,0:41:51.280 lowercase i 0:41:49.440,0:41:52.480 in the beginning of a sentence just i 0:41:51.280,0:41:55.119 can't do it but 0:41:52.480,0:41:56.720 other than that like i'm not real picky 0:41:55.119,0:42:00.319 on typos but yeah like 0:41:56.720,0:42:01.599 is the clarity there um for the writing 0:42:00.319,0:42:03.359 sample thing 0:42:01.599,0:42:05.119 as you're thinking through that like 0:42:03.359,0:42:07.760 what type of a 0:42:05.119,0:42:09.520 writing prompt are you leaning towards 0:42:07.760,0:42:12.000 like is it maybe 0:42:09.520,0:42:13.680 uh here's a bug report and how are they 0:42:12.000,0:42:16.160 gonna combination of sort of 0:42:13.680,0:42:17.680 troubleshoot it communicate around it or 0:42:16.160,0:42:19.760 maybe like a feature 0:42:17.680,0:42:22.079 you know some communication around a new 0:42:19.760,0:42:23.839 feature what do you think in there 0:42:22.079,0:42:25.119 so one of the things that i've been kind 0:42:23.839,0:42:26.560 of tossing around in my head and 0:42:25.119,0:42:28.720 probably the direction i'd move forward 0:42:26.560,0:42:30.319 here is um 0:42:28.720,0:42:32.160 and this combines it with another 0:42:30.319,0:42:35.359 benefit is 0:42:32.160,0:42:36.560 having kind of a standard uh feature 0:42:35.359,0:42:38.960 and and essentially having them do a 0:42:36.560,0:42:40.640 code review of that um but doing it in a 0:42:38.960,0:42:41.839 in a in a written format you know in 0:42:40.640,0:42:44.480 you know github or a bit bucket make 0:42:41.839,0:42:47.359 that really easy but 0:42:44.480,0:42:48.640 you know so so but i would probably kind 0:42:47.359,0:42:50.400 of phrase it like 0:42:48.640,0:42:51.760 you know imagine this is a a pull 0:42:50.400,0:42:53.520 request being put in by 0:42:51.760,0:42:55.040 a junior we call them associate 0:42:53.520,0:42:56.560 developer on the team and 0:42:55.040,0:42:58.400 so it's more than just point out the 0:42:56.560,0:43:00.640 issue but kind of explain 0:42:58.400,0:43:02.079 why that needs to be changed um because 0:43:00.640,0:43:03.200 then we're both assessing okay how do 0:43:02.079,0:43:04.480 you evaluate code 0:43:03.200,0:43:06.240 you know how do you recognize where 0:43:04.480,0:43:08.000 there are things that need to be changed 0:43:06.240,0:43:10.160 which is of course a valuable thing but 0:43:08.000,0:43:11.839 then at the same time also 0:43:10.160,0:43:13.520 we can see how they communicate how well 0:43:11.839,0:43:15.119 do they explain themselves 0:43:13.520,0:43:16.880 that's a good idea like communicate it 0:43:15.119,0:43:20.160 and maybe try to 0:43:16.880,0:43:22.000 um like sort of maybe that educate like 0:43:20.160,0:43:23.599 educating the team member kind of 0:43:22.000,0:43:25.760 collaboratively 0:43:23.599,0:43:27.119 maybe not just like hear the things that 0:43:25.760,0:43:28.960 are wrong but like in a 0:43:27.119,0:43:30.240 communicating in a way that's helpful 0:43:28.960,0:43:31.520 yeah right right 0:43:30.240,0:43:32.880 and i mean i think that's good for code 0:43:31.520,0:43:34.319 review in general but i would probably 0:43:32.880,0:43:34.800 give that additional prompt like you 0:43:34.319,0:43:36.480 know 0:43:34.800,0:43:38.000 you know keep in mind this is or think 0:43:36.480,0:43:38.880 of this as being submitted by someone 0:43:38.000,0:43:40.319 who 0:43:38.880,0:43:41.839 is not just appear at your same level of 0:43:40.319,0:43:42.800 seniority and you're just like oh did 0:43:41.839,0:43:45.040 you catch this thing 0:43:42.800,0:43:46.480 like oh okay got it um like they may not 0:43:45.040,0:43:47.920 get what you're saying so kind of walk 0:43:46.480,0:43:49.599 them through it a little bit more 0:43:47.920,0:43:51.280 that's a good that's a i like that it's 0:43:49.599,0:43:52.720 a good idea um 0:43:51.280,0:43:55.599 so there's a non-profit that you 0:43:52.720,0:43:57.520 volunteer for uh redemption housing 0:43:55.599,0:43:59.119 uh which integrates the formerly 0:43:57.520,0:44:00.000 incarcerated back in the life of their 0:43:59.119,0:44:02.079 community 0:44:00.000,0:44:03.599 which i think is really cool that you do 0:44:02.079,0:44:05.839 that and i think i've seen you 0:44:03.599,0:44:07.520 tweet about that a little bit um how's 0:44:05.839,0:44:09.359 how's all that going and 0:44:07.520,0:44:11.200 and what do you do for that um what do 0:44:09.359,0:44:13.760 you do to volunteer there 0:44:11.200,0:44:14.480 yeah so my primary involvement there um 0:44:13.760,0:44:17.280 these days 0:44:14.480,0:44:17.599 is i just serve on the board um i used 0:44:17.280,0:44:19.359 to be 0:44:17.599,0:44:20.800 involved a little bit more hands-on i 0:44:19.359,0:44:22.240 was actually i was 0:44:20.800,0:44:24.079 one of the founding board members of the 0:44:22.240,0:44:25.839 organization back when it first got 0:44:24.079,0:44:27.119 got started and at that point it was 0:44:25.839,0:44:28.160 like all hands on deck to get everything 0:44:27.119,0:44:29.359 done and we're still a small 0:44:28.160,0:44:30.400 organization so that's still true to 0:44:29.359,0:44:32.160 some degree but 0:44:30.400,0:44:34.560 these days i i used to live in philly 0:44:32.160,0:44:37.200 and it's an organization based in philly 0:44:34.560,0:44:38.480 so my personal involvement is more 0:44:37.200,0:44:40.079 maintaining the website and being 0:44:38.480,0:44:43.040 involved on the board 0:44:40.079,0:44:45.119 but the organization's doing great um we 0:44:43.040,0:44:48.640 have um one house up right now 0:44:45.119,0:44:50.079 um where we have um several men who are 0:44:48.640,0:44:52.240 actually just about transition out of 0:44:50.079,0:44:54.240 our program um and uh 0:44:52.240,0:44:55.920 i have been you know we're nearing the 0:44:54.240,0:44:56.800 end of fundraising for opening our 0:44:55.920,0:44:58.960 second house 0:44:56.800,0:45:00.720 um so that we can you know open that up 0:44:58.960,0:45:02.000 and this first house that we have right 0:45:00.720,0:45:04.400 now is for 0:45:02.000,0:45:06.079 uh people who have already been out of 0:45:04.400,0:45:06.880 um prison for a little while and have 0:45:06.079,0:45:08.560 gotten 0:45:06.880,0:45:10.000 their feet under them a little bit um we 0:45:08.560,0:45:11.839 just don't need to just a little bit we 0:45:10.000,0:45:13.359 call it contacting the next step program 0:45:11.839,0:45:15.839 um a little bit more support before 0:45:13.359,0:45:17.920 they're ready to go out on their own 0:45:15.839,0:45:19.040 but our next house is really what our 0:45:17.920,0:45:20.960 vision is for 0:45:19.040,0:45:23.040 um to begin with and that is for those 0:45:20.960,0:45:25.040 who are coming directly out of prison 0:45:23.040,0:45:27.200 and to give them a place where they can 0:45:25.040,0:45:28.720 live with community support but in a 0:45:27.200,0:45:30.160 dignified manner and i think that's 0:45:28.720,0:45:31.760 that's a big piece of it because there 0:45:30.160,0:45:33.280 are frankly there's just not enough 0:45:31.760,0:45:34.000 programs out there that provide housing 0:45:33.280,0:45:35.359 for 0:45:34.000,0:45:37.280 uh or supports in general for people 0:45:35.359,0:45:40.480 coming out of incarceration but 0:45:37.280,0:45:42.000 those that do are often uh strip some of 0:45:40.480,0:45:42.560 the dignity away from the individuals 0:45:42.000,0:45:44.160 and 0:45:42.560,0:45:45.680 we want to really keep that in place for 0:45:44.160,0:45:47.680 them like 0:45:45.680,0:45:49.440 some of the typical like halfway houses 0:45:47.680,0:45:52.000 you mean like yeah so i mean 0:45:49.440,0:45:52.880 yeah like a lot of halfway houses um uh 0:45:52.000,0:45:54.960 there's 0:45:52.880,0:45:56.079 if you talk to the guys who've um you 0:45:54.960,0:45:56.640 know men and women who've been through 0:45:56.079,0:45:58.640 those 0:45:56.640,0:45:59.760 uh uh it will either they either go one 0:45:58.640,0:46:00.720 or two directions either they're so 0:45:59.760,0:46:02.640 permissive and 0:46:00.720,0:46:03.760 anything goes that there's no structure 0:46:02.640,0:46:06.319 at all for someone 0:46:03.760,0:46:07.599 um who you know you know may benefit 0:46:06.319,0:46:08.560 from a little bit of structure and a 0:46:07.599,0:46:10.400 little bit of support 0:46:08.560,0:46:11.760 for getting integrated back into the 0:46:10.400,0:46:14.240 community and 0:46:11.760,0:46:15.359 uh lead to very rapid recidivism because 0:46:14.240,0:46:16.319 there's just nothing to help support 0:46:15.359,0:46:18.079 them at all 0:46:16.319,0:46:19.440 or they go to the level where it's 0:46:18.079,0:46:20.400 basically like being in prison all over 0:46:19.440,0:46:23.440 again with just like 0:46:20.400,0:46:25.200 a little bit you know more freedom and 0:46:23.440,0:46:27.200 we want to and it's you know i'm not 0:46:25.200,0:46:28.720 sure that i can promise we'll always 0:46:27.200,0:46:30.000 be perfect at it but our goal is to 0:46:28.720,0:46:30.880 really walk the line between those two 0:46:30.000,0:46:33.040 approaches where 0:46:30.880,0:46:34.560 you have that dignity of feeling you are 0:46:33.040,0:46:35.680 a free person you're not you're not 0:46:34.560,0:46:38.400 still back in prison 0:46:35.680,0:46:39.920 um but giving them uh the holistic 0:46:38.400,0:46:41.599 support wrap around the services that 0:46:39.920,0:46:45.359 they need to 0:46:41.599,0:46:47.280 to to do well and you know to get uh 0:46:45.359,0:46:49.839 you know from as as our director likes 0:46:47.280,0:46:51.119 to say going from mass incarceration to 0:46:49.839,0:46:53.680 mass reintegration 0:46:51.119,0:46:54.319 um back into into the communities and 0:46:53.680,0:46:56.000 neighborhoods 0:46:54.319,0:46:58.079 that's awesome man how did you how did 0:46:56.000,0:46:59.920 you get involved with that like what was 0:46:58.079,0:47:02.319 the impetus for you 0:46:59.920,0:47:04.240 initially yeah so so i've have i had 0:47:02.319,0:47:05.440 kind of i have an interesting background 0:47:04.240,0:47:07.200 from 0:47:05.440,0:47:09.280 my development and professional career 0:47:07.200,0:47:11.599 has kind of been in parallel with a 0:47:09.280,0:47:13.839 non-profit and career i actually 0:47:11.599,0:47:17.520 graduated from from uh seminary as well 0:47:13.839,0:47:20.400 i saw that yeah m div yeah 0:47:17.520,0:47:21.599 and while i was working on my degree i 0:47:20.400,0:47:24.960 was an intern at a church 0:47:21.599,0:47:26.720 and one of the fellow interns uh 0:47:24.960,0:47:28.319 had this idea for redemption housing 0:47:26.720,0:47:30.160 back um while we were there 0:47:28.319,0:47:31.839 but he wasn't ready to get it started um 0:47:30.160,0:47:33.200 we both graduated moved on 0:47:31.839,0:47:35.680 uh he was in working for the city of 0:47:33.200,0:47:36.880 philadelphia or actually no not not yet 0:47:35.680,0:47:39.200 at that point he was working 0:47:36.880,0:47:40.240 um for a like a rescue mission like 0:47:39.200,0:47:42.880 homeless shelter 0:47:40.240,0:47:44.240 um um but that was just general it 0:47:42.880,0:47:45.599 wasn't specifically to the 0:47:44.240,0:47:47.520 for the formerly incarcerated in any 0:47:45.599,0:47:49.040 sense um but reached back out and said 0:47:47.520,0:47:50.720 you know hey i'd like to get this thing 0:47:49.040,0:47:53.839 started that we talked about back 0:47:50.720,0:47:54.960 um you know years ago and i said yeah 0:47:53.839,0:47:58.240 i'm on board so 0:47:54.960,0:47:59.440 you know we uh we and a few others you 0:47:58.240,0:48:00.160 know kind of got it off the ground in 0:47:59.440,0:48:03.200 the first place 0:48:00.160,0:48:04.960 and it's you know i wouldn't say it's in 0:48:03.200,0:48:07.119 rapid growth but um it's been growing 0:48:04.960,0:48:09.040 and it's a it's a steady 0:48:07.119,0:48:11.040 healthy organization so excited about 0:48:09.040,0:48:12.480 that it's really cool man it's a really 0:48:11.040,0:48:12.800 it's a really neat thing to do there's a 0:48:12.480,0:48:16.240 lot 0:48:12.800,0:48:18.319 in the news you know related to um 0:48:16.240,0:48:20.000 you know incarceration and and 0:48:18.319,0:48:22.960 especially like for drug 0:48:20.000,0:48:24.079 low level uh drug offenses and stuff 0:48:22.960,0:48:26.720 like that and 0:48:24.079,0:48:28.480 and um i mean you're actually working at 0:48:26.720,0:48:29.119 it on the ground which is amazing you 0:48:28.480,0:48:32.880 know 0:48:29.119,0:48:34.559 yeah yeah yeah and actually um 0:48:32.880,0:48:36.559 that the overall attention in the in the 0:48:34.559,0:48:38.800 media has actually helped like we 0:48:36.559,0:48:39.839 um we were very grateful to our donors 0:48:38.800,0:48:41.760 there because 0:48:39.839,0:48:42.880 we actually have had one of our best 0:48:41.760,0:48:46.960 financial years 0:48:42.880,0:48:48.720 this year uh in the midst of combat um 0:48:46.960,0:48:49.839 uh because i think partially because of 0:48:48.720,0:48:50.800 a lot of the attention that's been in 0:48:49.839,0:48:52.480 the media that's been 0:48:50.800,0:48:53.839 helpful to the the real issues that are 0:48:52.480,0:48:55.680 out there um but has 0:48:53.839,0:48:57.040 has given us a big boost toward that 0:48:55.680,0:48:59.440 that fundraising for the second house 0:48:57.040,0:49:00.240 that's amazing man and i'd imagine most 0:48:59.440,0:49:02.000 uh 0:49:00.240,0:49:03.520 charity contributions have got to be 0:49:02.000,0:49:06.480 down during 0:49:03.520,0:49:07.760 absolutely yeah yeah so we're we're kind 0:49:06.480,0:49:09.839 of one of the exceptions there 0:49:07.760,0:49:11.839 that's great man that's really cool um 0:49:09.839,0:49:14.000 that should do that 0:49:11.839,0:49:15.520 awesome man well it was a lot of fun uh 0:49:14.000,0:49:17.599 getting a chance to chat with you 0:49:15.520,0:49:19.680 um where is the best place for people to 0:49:17.599,0:49:22.800 find you online 0:49:19.680,0:49:25.040 um so me personally twitter is my 0:49:22.800,0:49:27.520 primary uh place of engagement there so 0:49:25.040,0:49:28.559 i'm the the scottish b which sounds like 0:49:27.520,0:49:29.839 super pompous but 0:49:28.559,0:49:31.280 it was literally all the other 0:49:29.839,0:49:32.240 variations of my name were taken by time 0:49:31.280,0:49:33.839 i got on twitter so 0:49:32.240,0:49:38.800 it's hard yeah it's hard it's hard to 0:49:33.839,0:49:38.800 find a handle these days