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#89 It's A Bit Of A Russian Nesting Doll Relationship | Phillip Jackson

Phillip Jackson is the Chief Commerce Officer at Something Digital and the Co-Founder of retail research startup Future Commerce.

Transcript
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i usually hear people call them pods not

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disease bubbles

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that's disease bubble that's that's the

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phraseology i've chosen

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it sounds a little more ominous a pod

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what are we whales

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[Music]

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what's crackle lacking have you always

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had a little bit of gray hair

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or is that new no it's coming in now

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yeah it's killing me it's coming in see

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all that

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dude it looks sexy though

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oh hey i'll take that because it doesn't

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feel sexy it feels like i'm old af

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that's what it feels dude it looks

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freaking

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hot man i like it i love i love the

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change of venue for you

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is it is it uh it got

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it got to uh it got too freaking uh

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cold in the uh in no way

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yeah it got too cold my whole plan the

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whole time was to get a space heater

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um yeah and uh because the ac was

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working

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like a charm um and then

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so i get a space here and my wife's like

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that's super dangerous

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she's like it has to be three feet away

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from everything can't be plugged into a

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uh extension cord and then i like looked

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up some youtube videos i saw a bunch of

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news coverage of like space heater fires

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and i was like yeah

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yeah let's not do this so then i

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literally like

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tried using blankets one day dude it was

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like 35 degrees that i was blake you're

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like

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wrapped up in like one of those like

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space blanket things like the foil

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dude like the marathon runners in

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afterwards i was

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this close to buying a snuggly and then

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i was like i gotta

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i gotta i gotta know my limits bring it

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back in my guy's all snugged out

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he's getting all snugged out but it it's

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nice to live like a normal human being

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like inside of a regular

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like you know building with like

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insulation and like

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all that kind of stuff it is nice

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yeah well yeah looking great dude my

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gosh

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thanks man wow what is with you you you

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look like

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the best you've ever looked thanks dude

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well i'm trying man i'm trying to

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freaking eat less and you know

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lift the weight you let's move more

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that's it this is like there's no other

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there's no trick that's it um here i

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wanted to show you this uh

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i have a picture of us um that is a

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total throwback that you

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you would appreciate is it the one that

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um is it the one where we're sitting

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together

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where we're sitting at uh i want to do

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like uh

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how it started how it's going version

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with us with that

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oh yeah well how it started this is our

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very first picture together here i'll

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show you

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um can you see this oh shoot

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oh god

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the fatness

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there are better pictures for your first

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picture but unfortunately we we don't

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have them it's just so happy to be the

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first one

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that's it that's well um we don't have a

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lot to choose from there's this one

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we have a lot that's the one that's the

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one i was thinking of yeah that's the

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one

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i think yeah i think we got a post to

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how it started how it's going with that

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one

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yeah and then there's i think this is

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the last picture of us together

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wow really we need to we need better

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pictures we got it you think so that's

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oh no that's old hold on no that's old

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yeah no that's

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maybe this one getting yeah getting

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there i look like a uh

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i look like a maybe like this one i in

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that one with the mustache i looked like

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a convicted like

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killer or something like that out of

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like you're like uh it's yeah

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tennessee yeah that that is the picture

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of a person who

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um you know is uh out on bail awaiting

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uh awaiting sentencing yeah that's it

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like just got off of bail and uh

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is trying to stay under the radar well

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you know what i i feel like

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we should have already started so how

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about we just make all that yeah go

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ahead yeah let's make all that the

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podcast that's part of it that's all

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part

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yeah that was all that was all baked

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then how it started how it's going

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phillip jackson jackson 2020 all we have

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left is decaf

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you know you know it's scary that's that

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was my

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uh campaign slogan that was it uh from

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one of those

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you know viral uh tweets um

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literally a phrase that i spoke i

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actually said that out loud

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um is that one day i went to the the

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nespresso cupboard

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and there was nothing left but decaf and

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i thought that that like perfectly

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summed up the way that i was feeling at

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the beginning of that week

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right um this is going to be a very long

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week right um

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how was yours oh gosh

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oh god what was it what was it uh i

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can't remember

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and i sort of cheated it wasn't

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literally the last thing i said

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it was like the thing that sounded

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better to me

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i can't i can't at all remember it um

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but like

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that's funny how are you feeling overall

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right now like it's it's obviously a bit

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of a crazy time

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covet elections are you

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managing to stay sane if so how

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if not what's your gofundme so that you

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know

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people can uh

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[Music]

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so it's funny um right now

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i mean just to touch on both of those

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things florida is a very interesting

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place to live the lord is an interesting

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place

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yeah it really is covid the last two

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months in particular have been

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has been a sort of an unmitigated

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disaster in the state that's just kind

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of been a

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uh just having a family of mine that

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works in healthcare

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and having a few of my very close family

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members including my sister

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who uh run um

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[Music]

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like nursing at uh a big big hospital in

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central florida a big network of

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hospitals in central florida and kind of

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seeing the struggle that they go through

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and watching it sort of make its way

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around the community and having people

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you know that get it and people you know

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that go to icu

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and you know they were fairly careful

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and some people

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you know it just it's funny to kind of

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watch it

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hit so close to home after seeing it

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sort of from afar for the last six

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months um but you know thankfully like

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we have our health we're

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we're doing okay um it hasn't really hit

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close to home here you know i

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i did my very first travel uh since

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uh the month of march i you know since

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march 7th or so i've been

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grounded and haven't really left uh

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florida at all

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uh but i did travel out to seattle a few

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weeks ago

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um to see brian uh who is on the future

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commerce podcast with me

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and shout out to brian and

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you know that was a weird and harrowing

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experience you know i was one of

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15 people on the plane on the way out

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there there was like nobody on the plane

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i had

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four you know rows in front of me and

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behind me that would like oh myself

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yeah um and uh but you know and then

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i got back and i had a coveted test and

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just just to be safe and stuff i feel

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like that's the right thing to do

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um but that's kind of the world that we

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live in right now i it has made me think

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on a grander scale about like this idea

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that things have

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you know there there are like there

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are repercussions or there are

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consequences

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to everything everything you do uh has

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uh adverse effects that you could you

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can't possibly

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uh take into consideration when you make

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a choice it's sort of like

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reaffirming to me that you just have to

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live your life instead of

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um yeah like we we all are faced right

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now with having to just kind of like

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live our lives and you know there's

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risks that you take and the risks and

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some risks are worth the risk and some

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aren't and yeah

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i think that's a little different for

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everybody i'm much more pragmatic now

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than i was say

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six months ago okay um so more

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that is that an answer you were hoping

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to get i mean yeah

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i think this is as close as you can get

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like because i know you were pretty like

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locked down before like not going

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and anywhere kind of a thing so you kind

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of opened up a little bit

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and decided to get out do a little bit

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yeah

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i think also just seeing that we're

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having more understanding i think

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of the

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the measures that seem to work you look

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at what happened with the nba bubble

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right they played 173 games or something

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and had zero infections and it just

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proves that if you do

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if you do certain things that you can

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prevent

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you know you can prevent uh the disease

0:08:55.920,0:08:59.519
from touching you and your family if you

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do all if you do most of the things that

0:08:59.519,0:09:01.839
you're supposed to do right social

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distancing

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uh testing wearing a mask you know and

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just being really on top of that stuff

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and you know we still have people like

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i have a disease bubble i have i have

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people that i feel

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safe because i i like feel safe being

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around and have my kids

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be around their kids like because i know

0:09:18.480,0:09:20.000
them and they're the people that i have

0:09:19.680,0:09:21.680
group

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texts with and we kind of have we share

0:09:21.680,0:09:25.279
similar ideas and then there's the

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everyone else that i don't know that i'm

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i feel safe yeah hanging out in large

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numbers i usually hear people call them

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pods

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not disease bubbles that's disease

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bubble that's that's the

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phraseology i've chosen it sounds a

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little more ominous

0:09:39.600,0:09:44.640
uh pods what are we whales we just hang

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around in pods

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is is like the precise term of art

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because it describes exactly

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right you want to be specific you want

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to be specific about these things uh

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yeah we found out that um

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we had some friends that we found out

0:10:01.279,0:10:05.279
they were in a pod together

0:10:02.959,0:10:06.000
and we were not in the pod we found this

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out

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a few months yeah so now i just talk

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about it on podcasts

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that's that's what that's your ultimate

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like retribution

0:10:13.680,0:10:17.120
yeah that nobody's on the outside is

0:10:15.519,0:10:19.519
like i'm just going to talk about you

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sort of subversively in public for

0:10:19.519,0:10:23.680
thousands of people

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yeah yeah to witness tens tens tens to

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hundreds

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um but um so what did you do in seattle

0:10:28.160,0:10:30.959
you guys do a little future commerce

0:10:29.360,0:10:32.720
brainstorming or

0:10:30.959,0:10:34.079
a little bit yeah we just kind of

0:10:32.720,0:10:35.360
figuring out what next year is going to

0:10:34.079,0:10:39.040
be like we had

0:10:35.360,0:10:41.680
an incredible uh 2020 uh despite

0:10:39.040,0:10:42.399
all the odds um launched a bunch of new

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properties

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and um just kind of you know planning

0:10:44.880,0:10:47.920
world domination for next year and got

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some really cool

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uh irons in the fire so that that was

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part of it the other part was

0:10:51.279,0:10:54.640
i'm just itching you know i spent the

0:10:54.000,0:10:57.279
last

0:10:54.640,0:10:58.320
five six years being on the road 40 plus

0:10:57.279,0:11:00.880
weeks a year

0:10:58.320,0:11:01.680
i didn't realize how much of you know

0:11:00.880,0:11:04.160
how much

0:11:01.680,0:11:06.160
energy that gives me in sort of meeting

0:11:04.160,0:11:08.399
other people and seeing other people and

0:11:06.160,0:11:10.079
visiting new places and so you know part

0:11:08.399,0:11:12.640
of it was a convenient

0:11:10.079,0:11:14.079
uh you know need to get out of the house

0:11:12.640,0:11:16.640
uh for a few days

0:11:14.079,0:11:17.760
yeah um hiked up an amazing mountain in

0:11:16.640,0:11:20.000
the smokwami

0:11:17.760,0:11:21.120
valley um called mount catherine which

0:11:20.000,0:11:24.480
is a very easy

0:11:21.120,0:11:26.399
you know couple hour hike up and back um

0:11:24.480,0:11:27.920
but uh yeah brian and i got to do that

0:11:26.399,0:11:29.600
that's cool it's something you don't do

0:11:27.920,0:11:32.399
in florida you know our

0:11:29.600,0:11:34.399
highest point of elevations uh 160 foot

0:11:32.399,0:11:37.279
and it's at the top of the garbage dump

0:11:34.399,0:11:39.040
right in in palm beach county so closest

0:11:37.279,0:11:41.120
thing to a hike is going to disney

0:11:39.040,0:11:42.880
disney world or something like that and

0:11:41.120,0:11:44.959
like it is like and it's you know it's

0:11:42.880,0:11:45.680
all flat and um and then you eat a ton

0:11:44.959,0:11:47.519
of like

0:11:45.680,0:11:48.720
you know dole whip and mickey mouse

0:11:47.519,0:11:50.639
shaped ice cream

0:11:48.720,0:11:52.160
while you're there you know you don't

0:11:50.639,0:11:54.160
have the same kind of opportunities a

0:11:52.160,0:11:55.600
lot of mushrooms on this mountain though

0:11:54.160,0:11:57.279
if we wanted to do the psychedelics

0:11:55.600,0:11:58.480
thing yeah we got to talk about that

0:11:57.279,0:11:59.200
that would have been a total that would

0:11:58.480,0:12:01.600
have been a whole

0:11:59.200,0:12:03.040
different type of trip although i think

0:12:01.600,0:12:05.279
um psychedelic

0:12:03.040,0:12:06.560
tourism is something that i think might

0:12:05.279,0:12:08.160
be top of mind for you because i saw you

0:12:06.560,0:12:10.079
between tweeting about it but

0:12:08.160,0:12:13.279
you know that could operate be a

0:12:10.079,0:12:13.279
different kind of a trip

0:12:14.240,0:12:17.760
totally different kind of a trip yeah no

0:12:16.240,0:12:19.519
it's it's i've just i don't know i've

0:12:17.760,0:12:20.639
heard about it like on the tim ferriss

0:12:19.519,0:12:22.959
uh show he's

0:12:20.639,0:12:24.079
started to invest heavily in psychedelic

0:12:22.959,0:12:26.160
therapeutics and and

0:12:24.079,0:12:27.680
has talked about how it's benefited him

0:12:26.160,0:12:30.160
and just lots of different

0:12:27.680,0:12:32.560
um interesting things related to it so

0:12:30.160,0:12:34.160
it's just something that i've been

0:12:32.560,0:12:35.760
kind of curious there was the ballot

0:12:34.160,0:12:40.000
measure that went through i think

0:12:35.760,0:12:43.600
in uh oregon where they decriminalized

0:12:40.000,0:12:46.639
um possession of of all uh

0:12:43.600,0:12:48.399
drugs but um uh i think it was uh

0:12:46.639,0:12:52.079
psilocybin and some other

0:12:48.399,0:12:55.760
uh psychoactives they actually

0:12:52.079,0:12:56.720
like fully legalized legalized which is

0:12:55.760,0:13:00.000
uh

0:12:56.720,0:13:02.079
super i mean of course it's oregon um

0:13:00.000,0:13:03.360
but in the future uh that might be

0:13:02.079,0:13:05.519
something it's really interesting to

0:13:03.360,0:13:07.040
think about think about this

0:13:05.519,0:13:10.240
because this is the kind of thing that

0:13:07.040,0:13:14.160
keeps me up at night which is

0:13:10.240,0:13:16.240
the the concept of you look back

0:13:14.160,0:13:18.160
on look back on human history even 40 or

0:13:16.240,0:13:19.760
50 years ago and you think about

0:13:18.160,0:13:21.440
you know or let's go let's go further

0:13:19.760,0:13:21.920
back let's go back three four hundred

0:13:21.440,0:13:24.240
years

0:13:21.920,0:13:26.720
and bloodletting was extremely common

0:13:24.240,0:13:29.279
right and that was like a form of

0:13:26.720,0:13:30.880
you know it's it's it was a form of uh

0:13:29.279,0:13:34.399
therapy it was a form of

0:13:30.880,0:13:36.320
of uh you know medical practice and

0:13:34.399,0:13:38.639
and it had various forms from you know

0:13:36.320,0:13:39.440
cutting it was the cbd of their time

0:13:38.639,0:13:42.000
basis

0:13:39.440,0:13:43.440
it was extremely well accepted as like a

0:13:42.000,0:13:46.079
therapeutic that worked

0:13:43.440,0:13:46.839
um we were watching this incredible uh

0:13:46.079,0:13:50.079
series

0:13:46.839,0:13:52.959
um from the bbc uh

0:13:50.079,0:13:53.920
that talks about like the the life of uh

0:13:52.959,0:13:57.680
victorian

0:13:53.920,0:14:00.880
uh uh the the victorian uh

0:13:57.680,0:14:02.079
england or the the time in victorian

0:14:00.880,0:14:04.240
english

0:14:02.079,0:14:05.760
in that area era and there was this

0:14:04.240,0:14:06.560
incredible explosion of like consumer

0:14:05.760,0:14:09.680
brands

0:14:06.560,0:14:10.720
in that time and it's it's uh

0:14:09.680,0:14:12.720
where you had all these like

0:14:10.720,0:14:13.600
therapeutics and you know different

0:14:12.720,0:14:16.160
remedies and

0:14:13.600,0:14:16.880
and that people would take in and one

0:14:16.160,0:14:19.199
popular

0:14:16.880,0:14:21.040
thing was to go to like the spa or go to

0:14:19.199,0:14:23.920
the ocean and take in the waters

0:14:21.040,0:14:24.959
um and so you would leave you know your

0:14:23.920,0:14:26.720
victorian home

0:14:24.959,0:14:28.800
and you would go to the spa and you're

0:14:26.720,0:14:30.000
like oh man i just i feel so much better

0:14:28.800,0:14:31.440
when i go here and they take

0:14:30.000,0:14:33.440
in the waters it's like a thing that

0:14:31.440,0:14:35.040
they would do and they had

0:14:33.440,0:14:36.639
magical properties that would just

0:14:35.040,0:14:38.399
impart wellness to you

0:14:36.639,0:14:40.000
and then you go back home and you know a

0:14:38.399,0:14:41.600
couple months later you're feeling like

0:14:40.000,0:14:43.120
garbage again then you go again you go

0:14:41.600,0:14:44.399
to the spa and you take in the waters

0:14:43.120,0:14:46.320
and you feel amazing

0:14:44.399,0:14:48.399
and it turns out the way the reason that

0:14:46.320,0:14:51.120
people felt so good was because they

0:14:48.399,0:14:52.720
were leaving their arsenic filled homes

0:14:51.120,0:14:55.440
where they were slowly being poisoned to

0:14:52.720,0:14:55.839
death by things like wallpaper and lead

0:14:55.440,0:14:57.839
paint

0:14:55.839,0:14:59.600
and things like that and they would

0:14:57.839,0:15:01.760
leave and they'd leave the environmental

0:14:59.600,0:15:02.800
toxins then go to literally anywhere but

0:15:01.760,0:15:05.040
it happened to be the spa

0:15:02.800,0:15:06.639
and then they get better and i feel like

0:15:05.040,0:15:08.959
if you if you kind of look at human

0:15:06.639,0:15:11.040
history every 30 40 50 years

0:15:08.959,0:15:12.000
we tend to believe that we're we're you

0:15:11.040,0:15:13.600
know our greatest

0:15:12.000,0:15:15.680
fallacy is believing that we are

0:15:13.600,0:15:18.320
fundamentally and wholly completely

0:15:15.680,0:15:20.399
right right now and that the human

0:15:18.320,0:15:22.160
humanity of 40 50 years ago

0:15:20.399,0:15:23.519
were complete idiots and you know

0:15:22.160,0:15:26.160
basically neanderthal

0:15:23.519,0:15:27.839
right and um so i think about that a lot

0:15:26.160,0:15:29.759
it keeps me up at night as so like what

0:15:27.839,0:15:32.959
are we wrong about right now which is

0:15:29.759,0:15:34.000
probably everything um things that we

0:15:32.959,0:15:37.199
take to be like

0:15:34.000,0:15:39.360
gospel truth um and and confirmed

0:15:37.199,0:15:41.120
science and science you know factual

0:15:39.360,0:15:45.040
science that you know is

0:15:41.120,0:15:47.920
uh completely uh uh indisputable

0:15:45.040,0:15:48.720
uh yeah how much of that's going to hold

0:15:47.920,0:15:50.320
you yeah because

0:15:48.720,0:15:52.160
i'm not sure like that's like the

0:15:50.320,0:15:54.959
history of science is is

0:15:52.160,0:15:56.639
uh things that were held to be

0:15:54.959,0:15:59.040
incontrovertibly true

0:15:56.639,0:16:00.320
people saying this is actually not true

0:15:59.040,0:16:02.560
and then everybody's saying you're crazy

0:16:00.320,0:16:05.199
you're a heretic or you're whatever

0:16:02.560,0:16:06.320
and then um ultimately like the

0:16:05.199,0:16:10.639
scientific method

0:16:06.320,0:16:12.399
reproducible studies is kind of the only

0:16:10.639,0:16:13.759
the only way to figure out what's what

0:16:12.399,0:16:16.880
you know

0:16:13.759,0:16:18.639
i have a thought that i wanted to float

0:16:16.880,0:16:20.240
over to you i want to get your take on

0:16:18.639,0:16:20.959
something it's something it's it's like

0:16:20.240,0:16:22.320
a nugget

0:16:20.959,0:16:24.240
it's not fully developed yet but it's

0:16:22.320,0:16:27.279
something i've been chewing on okay

0:16:24.240,0:16:30.160
i have this idea um that there's kind of

0:16:27.279,0:16:34.079
this inverted bell curve

0:16:30.160,0:16:36.079
of uh like focus and attention

0:16:34.079,0:16:37.600
that you go through over the course of

0:16:36.079,0:16:39.360
your career and i know that you're

0:16:37.600,0:16:40.880
you're big in helping people sort of

0:16:39.360,0:16:44.000
develop their careers

0:16:40.880,0:16:46.399
and when you're early on in your career

0:16:44.000,0:16:47.839
the amount of focus and attention that

0:16:46.399,0:16:51.120
you give to

0:16:47.839,0:16:53.040
like what what sets you apart and what

0:16:51.120,0:16:54.959
helps you be successful and maybe

0:16:53.040,0:16:56.720
land that first big job is being

0:16:54.959,0:16:58.399
extremely diversified

0:16:56.720,0:17:00.079
extremely diversified think about when

0:16:58.399,0:17:01.600
you do your college

0:17:00.079,0:17:03.279
application it's like they want to see

0:17:01.600,0:17:05.280
that you speak multiple languages that

0:17:03.279,0:17:08.000
you've been to many places that you've

0:17:05.280,0:17:09.199
you know that you've done uh you know

0:17:08.000,0:17:10.559
non-profit work and that you've

0:17:09.199,0:17:12.000
volunteered your time and that

0:17:10.559,0:17:13.520
like they want you to be involved in

0:17:12.000,0:17:14.079
sports and they want you to have you

0:17:13.520,0:17:16.079
know

0:17:14.079,0:17:17.439
done well in not just one area or a

0:17:16.079,0:17:19.120
major like class

0:17:17.439,0:17:20.400
class work they went to see that you're

0:17:19.120,0:17:23.679
proficient in all of them that's like

0:17:20.400,0:17:25.839
what makes you really well-rounded

0:17:23.679,0:17:26.720
and then you get that first job and then

0:17:25.839,0:17:28.240
they basic

0:17:26.720,0:17:29.840
you kind of get pigeonholed in your

0:17:28.240,0:17:30.559
career to doing one thing and if you

0:17:29.840,0:17:33.679
were to

0:17:30.559,0:17:34.799
like veer off of that path for some

0:17:33.679,0:17:36.720
period of time

0:17:34.799,0:17:38.799
like you're probably not going to hit an

0:17:36.720,0:17:39.360
acceleration point in your career early

0:17:38.799,0:17:40.799
on

0:17:39.360,0:17:42.640
that will like take you to the next

0:17:40.799,0:17:43.679
level but it's funny because there's

0:17:42.640,0:17:46.400
this weird dip

0:17:43.679,0:17:48.160
at some point where like your

0:17:46.400,0:17:49.840
diversification of your

0:17:48.160,0:17:52.160
of your skill set and capabilities and

0:17:49.840,0:17:52.559
maybe you're bringing your whole self to

0:17:52.160,0:17:54.559
work

0:17:52.559,0:17:56.400
is totally discouraged it's like you

0:17:54.559,0:17:58.080
have to be solely focused and

0:17:56.400,0:18:00.640
specialized on one thing for a long

0:17:58.080,0:18:03.840
period of time but as

0:18:00.640,0:18:06.880
your career goes on it's like

0:18:03.840,0:18:09.679
the more desirable people to

0:18:06.880,0:18:11.039
take on larger roles and to lead larger

0:18:09.679,0:18:12.240
efforts are the ones who are more

0:18:11.039,0:18:13.679
generalists they're

0:18:12.240,0:18:16.480
they're people who have extremely

0:18:13.679,0:18:18.400
diversified interests they're people who

0:18:16.480,0:18:19.679
are on non-profit boards they're people

0:18:18.400,0:18:22.240
who are on

0:18:19.679,0:18:23.360
uh who you know have lots of investments

0:18:22.240,0:18:24.480
and they have rental properties and

0:18:23.360,0:18:26.559
these are like

0:18:24.480,0:18:27.919
they've got families they're things that

0:18:26.559,0:18:29.280
are fragmenting their time that are

0:18:27.919,0:18:31.280
trying to pull their attention away but

0:18:29.280,0:18:33.120
that's the person who is successful so

0:18:31.280,0:18:34.320
you kind of take them as they are

0:18:33.120,0:18:35.520
and they're going to be successful no

0:18:34.320,0:18:36.640
matter what they do because they know

0:18:35.520,0:18:39.600
how to sort of

0:18:36.640,0:18:41.600
time box their attention to create high

0:18:39.600,0:18:43.200
yield for the small amount of investment

0:18:41.600,0:18:44.720
they give

0:18:43.200,0:18:46.400
and that's this nugget that i'm like

0:18:44.720,0:18:46.960
sort of chewing on which is like how do

0:18:46.400,0:18:49.840
you

0:18:46.960,0:18:51.120
how do we cut out that middle section to

0:18:49.840,0:18:53.600
learn to be

0:18:51.120,0:18:54.400
to learn to like embrace the fact that

0:18:53.600,0:18:56.799
modern work

0:18:54.400,0:18:58.080
isn't is is like a lot of different

0:18:56.799,0:19:00.240
things is like

0:18:58.080,0:19:01.840
how do we close the gap there that this

0:19:00.240,0:19:02.559
idea of specialization in the middle

0:19:01.840,0:19:04.160
years

0:19:02.559,0:19:06.000
is actually not really necessary in

0:19:04.160,0:19:07.600
reality it's kind of a fallacy it's this

0:19:06.000,0:19:10.960
thing that we've kind of crammed

0:19:07.600,0:19:12.559
you know juniors and seniors into uh

0:19:10.960,0:19:15.120
in in junior and senior roles especially

0:19:12.559,0:19:18.640
in technical skill to technical work

0:19:15.120,0:19:19.360
of like how do we hops hopscotch that

0:19:18.640,0:19:22.080
piece

0:19:19.360,0:19:24.000
to get into the later years where you

0:19:22.080,0:19:26.559
know you're back to being your full self

0:19:24.000,0:19:27.360
and letting it all kind of hang out and

0:19:26.559,0:19:29.200
i'm feeling

0:19:27.360,0:19:30.640
it's a nugget i'm chewing on it i'm

0:19:29.200,0:19:33.520
curious what you think about that

0:19:30.640,0:19:34.880
yeah like as i'm hearing that i'm not

0:19:33.520,0:19:35.840
even sure what i think about it because

0:19:34.880,0:19:38.320
i'm thinking about your

0:19:35.840,0:19:39.039
career trajectory and mine which both

0:19:38.320,0:19:42.000
follow that

0:19:39.039,0:19:43.440
uh path of specializing and then being

0:19:42.000,0:19:46.559
more generalist

0:19:43.440,0:19:47.120
um and then so i'm seeing the pattern

0:19:46.559,0:19:48.799
there

0:19:47.120,0:19:50.720
but then i'm also thinking like i've

0:19:48.799,0:19:52.720
always been i've always felt like

0:19:50.720,0:19:55.840
specialization is so

0:19:52.720,0:19:57.600
powerful um and

0:19:55.840,0:19:59.280
so i'm thinking about like if somebody's

0:19:57.600,0:20:00.880
a developer and they can specialize

0:19:59.280,0:20:03.679
there's so much

0:20:00.880,0:20:04.080
power in that but there's also so much

0:20:03.679,0:20:05.760
power

0:20:04.080,0:20:08.000
in being able to generalize like okay

0:20:05.760,0:20:09.679
you can you can code really well but can

0:20:08.000,0:20:12.480
you communicate well

0:20:09.679,0:20:14.240
um can you communicate with clients can

0:20:12.480,0:20:14.720
you communicate in writing i think about

0:20:14.240,0:20:16.640
like

0:20:14.720,0:20:17.760
the base camp philosophy where they're

0:20:16.640,0:20:21.120
like so into

0:20:17.760,0:20:23.280
writing even for designers creatives

0:20:21.120,0:20:24.960
technical roles like writing is such an

0:20:23.280,0:20:28.559
important part of their

0:20:24.960,0:20:30.799
um philosophy of like how to do work

0:20:28.559,0:20:32.880
um and i think about like as work is

0:20:30.799,0:20:35.200
becoming more asynchronous

0:20:32.880,0:20:36.799
like writing is becoming more important

0:20:35.200,0:20:37.840
also stuff like this like there's more

0:20:36.799,0:20:39.760
people doing

0:20:37.840,0:20:41.280
like youtube videos you know like i was

0:20:39.760,0:20:43.760
talking to uh

0:20:41.280,0:20:45.840
philip uhkowski the view storefront see

0:20:43.760,0:20:47.360
a cto and he's starting to do youtube

0:20:45.840,0:20:49.360
videos a lot of

0:20:47.360,0:20:50.640
people that would speak at conferences

0:20:49.360,0:20:51.919
are starting to do youtube videos

0:20:50.640,0:20:53.679
because there's not as much conference

0:20:51.919,0:20:56.720
speaking going on and so like

0:20:53.679,0:20:57.360
that's a very different skill set from

0:20:56.720,0:21:00.320
like

0:20:57.360,0:21:01.919
coding you know um but then like what

0:21:00.320,0:21:04.720
you're saying is like okay so maybe this

0:21:01.919,0:21:07.520
whole specialization thing

0:21:04.720,0:21:08.640
in the middle doesn't actually mat like

0:21:07.520,0:21:10.400
we're forced like

0:21:08.640,0:21:13.600
it's somehow being forced and it

0:21:10.400,0:21:16.400
shouldn't be um

0:21:13.600,0:21:16.880
i don't know my instinct is that's

0:21:16.400,0:21:20.240
that's

0:21:16.880,0:21:23.280
not true like like you have to

0:21:20.240,0:21:26.000
put in the 10 000 hours you have to

0:21:23.280,0:21:27.039
um you know get deep inside i'm also

0:21:26.000,0:21:28.080
thinking about it i was listening to

0:21:27.039,0:21:30.080
this um

0:21:28.080,0:21:31.120
uh webb smith podcast over the weekend

0:21:30.080,0:21:34.240
and he talks about

0:21:31.120,0:21:37.120
deep uh generalization

0:21:34.240,0:21:39.039
um which i honestly didn't fully

0:21:37.120,0:21:40.159
understand the concept i heard them talk

0:21:39.039,0:21:41.280
about it a little bit but he talked

0:21:40.159,0:21:44.159
about

0:21:41.280,0:21:45.120
having three or four or five areas that

0:21:44.159,0:21:46.559
you knew

0:21:45.120,0:21:48.960
well like you talked about how

0:21:46.559,0:21:50.960
commercial real estate retail

0:21:48.960,0:21:52.480
uh brands and couple other things in his

0:21:50.960,0:21:54.720
particular case but

0:21:52.480,0:21:56.240
that phrase deep generalization like

0:21:54.720,0:21:58.799
really stuck with me

0:21:56.240,0:22:00.000
um and i think there's something there

0:21:58.799,0:22:01.520
um

0:22:00.000,0:22:03.520
it also makes me think about i've heard

0:22:01.520,0:22:04.960
people say like instead of trying to be

0:22:03.520,0:22:08.480
the top one percent

0:22:04.960,0:22:11.679
at like one skill try to be the top 10

0:22:08.480,0:22:14.159
of like three skills combined

0:22:11.679,0:22:14.880
and that's going to you know be uniquely

0:22:14.159,0:22:18.080
valuable

0:22:14.880,0:22:19.360
you know yeah it's it's this really

0:22:18.080,0:22:21.679
interesting

0:22:19.360,0:22:22.640
thing so think about uh the ultra

0:22:21.679,0:22:24.080
successful

0:22:22.640,0:22:25.679
yeah i mean depending on how you

0:22:24.080,0:22:27.280
quantify success

0:22:25.679,0:22:30.080
let's put that to the side for a second

0:22:27.280,0:22:35.120
but you know the elon musks and the

0:22:30.080,0:22:38.240
uh jeff bezos of the world those people

0:22:35.120,0:22:40.000
have extreme fragmentation of their

0:22:38.240,0:22:43.440
interests and times and investments

0:22:40.000,0:22:45.679
right the elon musk you have not boring

0:22:43.440,0:22:46.480
uh company or i'm sorry uh the boring

0:22:45.679,0:22:48.720
company

0:22:46.480,0:22:49.840
not boring as packy mccormick uh the

0:22:48.720,0:22:53.120
boring company

0:22:49.840,0:22:54.320
um you have well amazon.com is obvious

0:22:53.120,0:22:58.000
for bezos uh

0:22:54.320,0:23:00.000
was it washington post uh uh blue origin

0:22:58.000,0:23:01.120
uh there's an incredible amount of

0:23:00.000,0:23:02.720
diversification

0:23:01.120,0:23:05.280
not just in like portfolio and

0:23:02.720,0:23:08.000
investments but interest

0:23:05.280,0:23:09.840
right and the things that he has the the

0:23:08.000,0:23:11.120
financial freedom to be able to pursue

0:23:09.840,0:23:15.520
whatever interest

0:23:11.120,0:23:18.640
matters to him and uh i think the

0:23:15.520,0:23:19.280
there's a lot of that at the upper end

0:23:18.640,0:23:23.039
of

0:23:19.280,0:23:25.840
of the financial success uh curve so

0:23:23.039,0:23:27.440
my sense is that the the things that

0:23:25.840,0:23:29.520
make you extremely successful

0:23:27.440,0:23:30.640
is actually being more diversified and

0:23:29.520,0:23:33.360
being more

0:23:30.640,0:23:34.720
um you know having having giving your

0:23:33.360,0:23:36.799
attention to a lot of things

0:23:34.720,0:23:38.240
and the people that are truly stand out

0:23:36.799,0:23:39.280
are the ones who understand how to make

0:23:38.240,0:23:41.440
them all work together

0:23:39.280,0:23:42.480
into like a web that uh is

0:23:41.440,0:23:44.400
self-reinforcing

0:23:42.480,0:23:47.600
the work that i do in the non-profit

0:23:44.400,0:23:48.320
space uh with 1909 and my advisory work

0:23:47.600,0:23:50.240
with uh

0:23:48.320,0:23:51.919
you know as i'm a board member at 1909

0:23:50.240,0:23:54.400
which is a startup accelerator

0:23:51.919,0:23:55.840
uh program and operates a space uh for

0:23:54.400,0:23:58.000
uh creatives um

0:23:55.840,0:24:00.240
to you know to work in uh

0:23:58.000,0:24:01.840
collaboratively here in west palm beach

0:24:00.240,0:24:03.760
you know that informs

0:24:01.840,0:24:05.520
the way that i do business networking

0:24:03.760,0:24:07.440
which has a direct impact

0:24:05.520,0:24:09.039
and and direct benefit to future

0:24:07.440,0:24:11.279
commerce and something digital

0:24:09.039,0:24:13.279
so everything that i do has an

0:24:11.279,0:24:15.279
interconnected path to being

0:24:13.279,0:24:17.440
a value-add for the other that's the

0:24:15.279,0:24:19.039
thing that we don't teach enough of

0:24:17.440,0:24:20.720
it's the thing that qualifies us to get

0:24:19.039,0:24:22.240
into higher education for some reason

0:24:20.720,0:24:23.600
but it's not the thing that we actually

0:24:22.240,0:24:24.640
spend time teaching people how to

0:24:23.600,0:24:26.400
develop

0:24:24.640,0:24:28.000
and i think we're all poorer for that

0:24:26.400,0:24:29.520
because think about what

0:24:28.000,0:24:31.279
the future of work would look like in

0:24:29.520,0:24:33.760
the future of education would look like

0:24:31.279,0:24:35.520
if we taught people how to make networks

0:24:33.760,0:24:36.000
work together for the benefit of each

0:24:35.520,0:24:38.159
other

0:24:36.000,0:24:39.679
and build a mutual value and if we did

0:24:38.159,0:24:41.200
that instead of teaching people how to

0:24:39.679,0:24:42.640
be specialists for 10 years of their

0:24:41.200,0:24:44.559
career

0:24:42.640,0:24:46.400
and to like pigeonhole themselves then i

0:24:44.559,0:24:49.600
think that we might actually have

0:24:46.400,0:24:52.720
like transformational uh work

0:24:49.600,0:24:55.279
and transformational like meaningful

0:24:52.720,0:24:56.240
uh more meaningful existence for people

0:24:55.279,0:24:58.880
who are doing

0:24:56.240,0:24:59.520
right uh work especially in in technical

0:24:58.880,0:25:01.600
fields

0:24:59.520,0:25:03.360
i like that a lot i think it's that i

0:25:01.600,0:25:04.799
think the fundamental thing is that like

0:25:03.360,0:25:07.360
people crave

0:25:04.799,0:25:08.080
uh variety right variety is the spice of

0:25:07.360,0:25:11.039
life

0:25:08.080,0:25:12.080
so to the extent that you can do

0:25:11.039,0:25:14.400
different things

0:25:12.080,0:25:15.840
um you're gonna gravitate to towards

0:25:14.400,0:25:17.440
doing different things

0:25:15.840,0:25:19.840
you're going to have different nobody

0:25:17.440,0:25:21.120
has one interest that they want to do 16

0:25:19.840,0:25:22.799
hours a day maybe there's

0:25:21.120,0:25:25.200
very very few rare people that want to

0:25:22.799,0:25:29.039
do the same thing for 16 hours a day

0:25:25.200,0:25:31.520
um but so like even like elon musk has

0:25:29.039,0:25:34.240
these things he's incredibly devoted to

0:25:31.520,0:25:36.559
but yet he'll be doing cars and doing

0:25:34.240,0:25:38.480
rocket ships and tunnels it's like

0:25:36.559,0:25:40.159
you get interested in something and to

0:25:38.480,0:25:42.320
the extent that you

0:25:40.159,0:25:43.840
um have the bandwidth to kind of chase

0:25:42.320,0:25:45.440
that

0:25:43.840,0:25:47.120
that's something people are gonna uh

0:25:45.440,0:25:49.520
gravitate towards

0:25:47.120,0:25:50.880
um i think about like my daughter like

0:25:49.520,0:25:52.960
i'm you know we're homeschooling her i'm

0:25:50.880,0:25:54.640
looking at her interests develop

0:25:52.960,0:25:56.960
and like i would have loved for her to

0:25:54.640,0:25:59.360
be in a coding i tried to teach her that

0:25:56.960,0:26:00.480
it didn't really click you know but she

0:25:59.360,0:26:02.000
loves to draw

0:26:00.480,0:26:03.600
and i'm like oh man maybe she could be

0:26:02.000,0:26:04.559
like an illustrator that's like a great

0:26:03.600,0:26:06.480
career

0:26:04.559,0:26:07.919
uh like a digital artist so that i'm

0:26:06.480,0:26:09.520
kind of pushing her a little bit in that

0:26:07.919,0:26:13.039
direction

0:26:09.520,0:26:16.000
she loves history i hated history like

0:26:13.039,0:26:18.159
um she loves like you know so there's

0:26:16.000,0:26:19.520
this like constellation of things she's

0:26:18.159,0:26:21.679
interested in

0:26:19.520,0:26:22.640
um and i think the other interesting

0:26:21.679,0:26:25.200
thing is that like

0:26:22.640,0:26:27.039
in the in the example of schools uh

0:26:25.200,0:26:28.960
wanting you to be well-rounded

0:26:27.039,0:26:30.159
i think they want too much

0:26:28.960,0:26:31.440
well-roundedness

0:26:30.159,0:26:33.360
right they want you to have

0:26:31.440,0:26:36.240
well-roundedness across

0:26:33.360,0:26:37.520
15 different categories you know math

0:26:36.240,0:26:40.640
volunteering did it

0:26:37.520,0:26:42.880
whereas i think maybe like three to five

0:26:40.640,0:26:44.159
is like the number like three to five

0:26:42.880,0:26:46.559
like really

0:26:44.159,0:26:48.480
core interests that like you said bounce

0:26:46.559,0:26:51.200
off each other and kind of feed into

0:26:48.480,0:26:52.720
each other and stuff like that you know

0:26:51.200,0:26:55.279
um i think they

0:26:52.720,0:26:57.760
i think they they they do reinforce each

0:26:55.279,0:26:59.919
other i i think

0:26:57.760,0:27:01.200
uh i could go down the rabbit hole of

0:26:59.919,0:27:01.760
ways that i feel like i could have

0:27:01.200,0:27:04.559
probably

0:27:01.760,0:27:05.520
uh done better uh with more support

0:27:04.559,0:27:08.080
especially on

0:27:05.520,0:27:08.720
in the education front uh when i was a

0:27:08.080,0:27:12.240
kid i

0:27:08.720,0:27:14.320
i would say that as time wears on

0:27:12.240,0:27:15.760
there's more access to more information

0:27:14.320,0:27:17.919
and a greater

0:27:15.760,0:27:20.080
uh a greater access for people to be

0:27:17.919,0:27:24.000
able to pursue their passions

0:27:20.080,0:27:26.480
now than there has ever been and um

0:27:24.000,0:27:28.880
and and and sort of the the lack of

0:27:26.480,0:27:30.799
reliance on place

0:27:28.880,0:27:32.000
is a thing that is unique to this

0:27:30.799,0:27:34.640
generation

0:27:32.000,0:27:36.000
right the idea of place is becoming less

0:27:34.640,0:27:38.399
and less concrete like

0:27:36.000,0:27:40.720
school is not a place you have to go to

0:27:38.399,0:27:43.520
right school is a thing that you can do

0:27:40.720,0:27:44.240
but it's not a place you have to be

0:27:43.520,0:27:45.760
restaurants

0:27:44.240,0:27:47.760
is not a place you have to be they can

0:27:45.760,0:27:50.399
come to you um

0:27:47.760,0:27:51.279
and in fact any any kind of experience i

0:27:50.399,0:27:52.880
mean you

0:27:51.279,0:27:54.640
let's look forward a little bit into the

0:27:52.880,0:27:55.279
future and you see what um is happening

0:27:54.640,0:27:58.320
around

0:27:55.279,0:27:59.120
ar and vr i think the idea of place or

0:27:58.320,0:28:00.720
even even

0:27:59.120,0:28:02.080
with the existing technology i know that

0:28:00.720,0:28:03.600
that freaks people out when we talk

0:28:02.080,0:28:04.000
about stuff like that so let me let me

0:28:03.600,0:28:06.159
kind of

0:28:04.000,0:28:07.039
come back to business meetings happen to

0:28:06.159,0:28:09.760
take place

0:28:07.039,0:28:10.080
now sometimes in fortnight like people

0:28:09.760,0:28:13.039
are

0:28:10.080,0:28:14.159
are meeting in yes this is a thing

0:28:13.039,0:28:18.080
that's happening

0:28:14.159,0:28:20.559
um in fact there's there's a um

0:28:18.080,0:28:21.760
oh who is doing it there's a retail

0:28:20.559,0:28:24.799
trade

0:28:21.760,0:28:26.399
um group that is holding

0:28:24.799,0:28:28.720
i'm gonna have to source this after we

0:28:26.399,0:28:30.000
talk um uh so that you can throw it into

0:28:28.720,0:28:32.320
like a chat or something somewhere

0:28:30.000,0:28:33.039
there's there's a uh someone is doing

0:28:32.320,0:28:35.440
and it's not shop

0:28:33.039,0:28:36.559
talk someone is doing a virtualized

0:28:35.440,0:28:40.640
version of

0:28:36.559,0:28:42.080
uh you know like a a a industry event

0:28:40.640,0:28:44.159
but it's all taking place in like

0:28:42.080,0:28:46.640
fortnight and what

0:28:44.159,0:28:48.159
sounds somewhat familiar uh what's so

0:28:46.640,0:28:49.440
interesting about that is the like

0:28:48.159,0:28:52.000
reliance on place

0:28:49.440,0:28:53.679
and you know the the idea of a workplace

0:28:52.000,0:28:54.480
has been on the decline for a long time

0:28:53.679,0:28:57.360
anyway

0:28:54.480,0:28:59.039
um this idea of like the reliance on

0:28:57.360,0:29:02.320
place

0:28:59.039,0:29:05.520
is i think core to our ability to

0:29:02.320,0:29:08.320
you know sort of evolve

0:29:05.520,0:29:08.799
our understanding of who we are as

0:29:08.320,0:29:11.039
people

0:29:08.799,0:29:12.399
is that we because we're not bound to

0:29:11.039,0:29:14.159
place

0:29:12.399,0:29:15.600
anymore like it used to be you go to an

0:29:14.159,0:29:17.279
ivy league school and you have the ivy

0:29:15.600,0:29:19.760
league experience or

0:29:17.279,0:29:20.960
that was i core to our identity and it

0:29:19.760,0:29:22.799
was less about

0:29:20.960,0:29:24.799
it was more bound to place than i think

0:29:22.799,0:29:26.559
we understood

0:29:24.799,0:29:28.080
another nugget of that idea i think is

0:29:26.559,0:29:30.399
that you know

0:29:28.080,0:29:31.440
dedicating to be in a certain position

0:29:30.399,0:29:34.880
in space

0:29:31.440,0:29:36.960
or place is was part of the uh

0:29:34.880,0:29:38.559
you know our struggle to you know have

0:29:36.960,0:29:40.640
this this idea of like a more fuller

0:29:38.559,0:29:41.440
identity that have like lots of diverse

0:29:40.640,0:29:43.840
interests

0:29:41.440,0:29:45.120
and to be able to like split time to

0:29:43.840,0:29:47.919
give

0:29:45.120,0:29:48.240
you know give portions of our attention

0:29:47.919,0:29:50.159
to

0:29:48.240,0:29:51.919
all of those things all at once because

0:29:50.159,0:29:53.120
they're required for us to be physically

0:29:51.919,0:29:55.360
in places

0:29:53.120,0:29:56.799
and that's not the world that we live in

0:29:55.360,0:29:59.039
it's not the world that my

0:29:56.799,0:30:00.720
daughters or your kids will live in in

0:29:59.039,0:30:02.559
the future and so this idea that you can

0:30:00.720,0:30:04.720
inspire them to be an illustrator and

0:30:02.559,0:30:07.360
then they don't have to go to risd

0:30:04.720,0:30:08.080
or they don't have to go to a college

0:30:07.360,0:30:10.480
like

0:30:08.080,0:30:12.159
pratt they don't have to go to those

0:30:10.480,0:30:13.120
places to be able to fulfill that part

0:30:12.159,0:30:14.720
of their passion

0:30:13.120,0:30:16.880
right is going to be different for this

0:30:14.720,0:30:19.760
generation than any generation before

0:30:16.880,0:30:21.279
you have you have an another exact shirt

0:30:19.760,0:30:23.520
almost exactly the same shirt

0:30:21.279,0:30:24.640
it's impressive it's shocking it's very

0:30:23.520,0:30:26.320
impressive

0:30:24.640,0:30:28.000
oh gosh i need i need to get on that

0:30:26.320,0:30:29.440
game i was trying to build out a capsule

0:30:28.000,0:30:31.840
wardrobe

0:30:29.440,0:30:32.880
uh earlier this year and then i sort of

0:30:31.840,0:30:35.200
had this

0:30:32.880,0:30:36.960
like i i love this idea because i i

0:30:35.200,0:30:40.880
started this in december

0:30:36.960,0:30:44.080
um of 2019 which was

0:30:40.880,0:30:46.720
like just have the basics in black just

0:30:44.080,0:30:47.279
t-shirt black black long pants black

0:30:46.720,0:30:49.440
shoes

0:30:47.279,0:30:50.720
yeah just kind of like take out the

0:30:49.440,0:30:52.240
choice of

0:30:50.720,0:30:54.080
of getting dressed in the morning i kind

0:30:52.240,0:30:55.760
of love that idea but i'm looking at

0:30:54.080,0:30:56.480
this huge wardrobe that i have that i

0:30:55.760,0:30:57.760
just

0:30:56.480,0:30:59.440
re-bought in the last three years

0:30:57.760,0:31:00.320
because i've lost a lot of weight and

0:30:59.440,0:31:02.240
i'm like

0:31:00.320,0:31:04.240
so i'm gonna throw all this out so that

0:31:02.240,0:31:07.120
i can hard to do save

0:31:04.240,0:31:07.440
20 seconds a day yeah i don't know like

0:31:07.120,0:31:09.039
yeah

0:31:07.440,0:31:11.120
and and i'm going to spend an additional

0:31:09.039,0:31:13.360
what three grand or something stupid on

0:31:11.120,0:31:14.480
more clothes i it just it sounded like a

0:31:13.360,0:31:15.679
really dumb idea

0:31:14.480,0:31:17.440
i watched when i started thinking about

0:31:15.679,0:31:18.000
it i watched this whole entire youtube

0:31:17.440,0:31:19.679
video

0:31:18.000,0:31:21.760
on by this guy with like a minimalist

0:31:19.679,0:31:23.600
youtube channel and that was his thing

0:31:21.760,0:31:25.200
was like i wore the same t-shirt for a

0:31:23.600,0:31:26.080
year and it's just like this charcoal

0:31:25.200,0:31:27.840
gray

0:31:26.080,0:31:29.519
t-shirt and he you know just talked

0:31:27.840,0:31:30.720
about the whole minimalism approach and

0:31:29.519,0:31:32.960
stuff like that

0:31:30.720,0:31:33.919
and uh i was like i kind of want to do

0:31:32.960,0:31:35.919
that

0:31:33.919,0:31:36.960
but um we don't talk enough about that i

0:31:35.919,0:31:39.600
like intellectual

0:31:36.960,0:31:41.840
like the the sort of like minimalism

0:31:39.600,0:31:45.519
aspect of the

0:31:41.840,0:31:48.720
uh of that from like a time like

0:31:45.519,0:31:50.880
attention focus like minimalism

0:31:48.720,0:31:51.840
on like having to make those sorts of

0:31:50.880,0:31:54.399
choices like

0:31:51.840,0:31:56.000
obama is the clear example of this sort

0:31:54.399,0:31:57.440
of idea of you know having a basic

0:31:56.000,0:31:59.519
wardrobe to kind of like

0:31:57.440,0:32:00.799
minimize cognitive loads so that you can

0:31:59.519,0:32:02.480
focus your attention on things that

0:32:00.799,0:32:04.480
actually matter

0:32:02.480,0:32:06.480
i don't know if i fully buy into those

0:32:04.480,0:32:07.919
things but i love the idea of it and i

0:32:06.480,0:32:09.519
really want to do it

0:32:07.919,0:32:11.200
except it just requires a tremendous

0:32:09.519,0:32:12.559
amount of investment and sort of like

0:32:11.200,0:32:14.000
almost this wasteful

0:32:12.559,0:32:15.679
thing of like i gotta get rid of all the

0:32:14.000,0:32:17.519
stuff i already have

0:32:15.679,0:32:18.720
i just kind of it's funny because i

0:32:17.519,0:32:21.279
think of you as like

0:32:18.720,0:32:21.840
the opposite of a minimalist like you're

0:32:21.279,0:32:24.720
super

0:32:21.840,0:32:26.799
fast maximalist yeah yeah yeah like

0:32:24.720,0:32:28.880
you're into like shoes and stuff like

0:32:26.799,0:32:32.159
that and like that's funny i didn't

0:32:28.880,0:32:34.960
i i i'm surprised that you're at all

0:32:32.159,0:32:36.240
even interested in like minimalism you

0:32:34.960,0:32:39.360
know

0:32:36.240,0:32:41.279
well i think part of it is like freeing

0:32:39.360,0:32:42.559
up cognitive loads so i can do more

0:32:41.279,0:32:44.720
things

0:32:42.559,0:32:46.399
it's not about it's not about the

0:32:44.720,0:32:47.519
pursuit of minimalism for the sake it's

0:32:46.399,0:32:49.519
so that i can actually create more

0:32:47.519,0:32:51.519
bandwidth so i can do even more

0:32:49.519,0:32:53.039
you know it's crazy it'll be crazy if

0:32:51.519,0:32:55.600
like you wore like the same

0:32:53.039,0:32:57.519
shirt and pants every day right and then

0:32:55.600,0:32:58.720
the only thing that changed was your

0:32:57.519,0:33:00.559
sneakers

0:32:58.720,0:33:02.080
like it would all look like you know

0:33:00.559,0:33:03.600
what i mean like it would be like a

0:33:02.080,0:33:05.840
flavor of minimalism

0:33:03.600,0:33:07.519
but it would almost put more emphasis on

0:33:05.840,0:33:08.080
your shoes because like everybody would

0:33:07.519,0:33:09.919
be like

0:33:08.080,0:33:12.320
what shoes you wear today you know my

0:33:09.919,0:33:15.360
dude yeah

0:33:12.320,0:33:18.399
i've recently gotten into all the secret

0:33:15.360,0:33:19.279
um sneaker trader like discord groups

0:33:18.399,0:33:21.039
now

0:33:19.279,0:33:24.080
um it took a couple years to break in

0:33:21.039,0:33:24.080
and so now i'm in the like

0:33:25.919,0:33:29.120
i don't want to be it's just now i don't

0:33:27.679,0:33:30.559
want to give that up

0:33:29.120,0:33:33.760
do you know how long it took me to break

0:33:30.559,0:33:33.760
into those classes

0:33:34.080,0:33:40.080
and uh it's crazy man i mean yeah

0:33:38.240,0:33:42.399
what yet another thing to focus time and

0:33:40.080,0:33:44.240
attention on um

0:33:42.399,0:33:45.679
but you've been kind of like like you've

0:33:44.240,0:33:47.679
been like you've been it sounds like

0:33:45.679,0:33:48.320
you've been like hacking and optimizing

0:33:47.679,0:33:50.480
like

0:33:48.320,0:33:52.640
your your schedule and like you know

0:33:50.480,0:33:53.760
like oh yeah big time all that stuff

0:33:52.640,0:33:56.159
right

0:33:53.760,0:33:57.919
well i found too that there's there's

0:33:56.159,0:34:00.159
stuff that

0:33:57.919,0:34:02.559
there's stuff you can do like there's

0:34:00.159,0:34:05.440
stuff that only kaylin can do

0:34:02.559,0:34:06.960
right but the things that that kalin

0:34:05.440,0:34:08.560
thinks that only kaelin can do

0:34:06.960,0:34:10.399
is probably like one percent like

0:34:08.560,0:34:11.760
there's there's a there's a small sliver

0:34:10.399,0:34:13.760
of things that only you

0:34:11.760,0:34:15.119
physically could ever do and then

0:34:13.760,0:34:17.200
there's all the other stuff that you're

0:34:15.119,0:34:21.040
just not willing to let go of yet

0:34:17.200,0:34:21.839
and i'm slowly figuring out what those

0:34:21.040,0:34:24.320
things are

0:34:21.839,0:34:25.760
that i can allow other people uh the

0:34:24.320,0:34:28.159
space to be able to

0:34:25.760,0:34:29.599
to um take ownership of and that's been

0:34:28.159,0:34:32.320
a big part of growing

0:34:29.599,0:34:34.000
future commerce which is like what do i

0:34:32.320,0:34:36.240
have to get in and actually do

0:34:34.000,0:34:37.760
and or and what am i just micromanaging

0:34:36.240,0:34:38.320
and preventing other people from scaling

0:34:37.760,0:34:41.679
up

0:34:38.320,0:34:43.359
on and sort of letting go of control

0:34:41.679,0:34:44.560
of those things for other people to make

0:34:43.359,0:34:45.200
space for other people to be able to

0:34:44.560,0:34:47.200
perform

0:34:45.200,0:34:49.200
so what are some of those things that

0:34:47.200,0:34:51.919
you thought you couldn't do

0:34:49.200,0:34:53.599
and then you got over that hump of of

0:34:51.919,0:34:55.520
being able to

0:34:53.599,0:34:57.200
hand them off and like what was that

0:34:55.520,0:35:00.400
process like of

0:34:57.200,0:35:01.359
of i mean appreciating that writing is a

0:35:00.400,0:35:04.640
big part of that

0:35:01.359,0:35:07.200
so um you know i think like part of

0:35:04.640,0:35:07.200
part of my

0:35:07.680,0:35:14.079
micro management is is me

0:35:10.960,0:35:15.440
wanting us to communicate uh all the

0:35:14.079,0:35:18.320
ideas i have

0:35:15.440,0:35:20.079
and and like in the in the various

0:35:18.320,0:35:21.839
places where we're doing writing so

0:35:20.079,0:35:23.200
in the last 18 months you know we've

0:35:21.839,0:35:25.920
done um

0:35:23.200,0:35:28.240
five or six like industry reports um

0:35:25.920,0:35:31.680
that are like very market research based

0:35:28.240,0:35:33.520
and in my mind the best

0:35:31.680,0:35:35.040
takeaways and the best insights are the

0:35:33.520,0:35:36.240
ones i come up with and then there's

0:35:35.040,0:35:38.560
everybody else's

0:35:36.240,0:35:40.640
on the teams that are not and and that's

0:35:38.560,0:35:42.079
in actuality the things that connect the

0:35:40.640,0:35:44.079
deepest with people that

0:35:42.079,0:35:45.119
have legs that stick around for a long

0:35:44.079,0:35:47.359
long time

0:35:45.119,0:35:48.720
like it's very rarely a concept like

0:35:47.359,0:35:50.880
carly like

0:35:48.720,0:35:52.320
a psychographic of a consumer who has

0:35:50.880,0:35:53.040
very little money but buys premium

0:35:52.320,0:35:54.880
anyway

0:35:53.040,0:35:56.400
we called her carly and it's an acronym

0:35:54.880,0:35:57.040
that stands for can't afford real life

0:35:56.400,0:35:59.359
yet

0:35:57.040,0:36:01.280
that's one concept i came up with at one

0:35:59.359,0:36:04.400
point that made a splash

0:36:01.280,0:36:06.160
but brian has written

0:36:04.400,0:36:08.160
article after article after article

0:36:06.160,0:36:08.880
after article about like the concept of

0:36:08.160,0:36:11.280
art

0:36:08.880,0:36:12.480
and art and its intrinsic value and

0:36:11.280,0:36:14.560
extrinsic value

0:36:12.480,0:36:16.160
and how like people feel connected to an

0:36:14.560,0:36:17.599
artist even if it's not the genuine

0:36:16.160,0:36:18.400
artifact if it's just a print or a

0:36:17.599,0:36:20.480
replica

0:36:18.400,0:36:21.920
and how replica sneakers like make that

0:36:20.480,0:36:24.400
up too and he talks about

0:36:21.920,0:36:26.720
ism and like sort of this idea of

0:36:24.400,0:36:28.400
absurdity he talks about existentialism

0:36:26.720,0:36:29.839
and maximalism and like all these high

0:36:28.400,0:36:31.359
order concepts and things that i just

0:36:29.839,0:36:32.560
don't care about that i'm like

0:36:31.359,0:36:33.680
no we should be talking about this other

0:36:32.560,0:36:34.960
thing well that's the thing that

0:36:33.680,0:36:36.960
connects with people

0:36:34.960,0:36:40.000
so it's it's me kind of trying to figure

0:36:36.960,0:36:43.920
out like this understanding of

0:36:40.000,0:36:46.000
like there's no one

0:36:43.920,0:36:48.000
uh us focusing only on the things that i

0:36:46.000,0:36:50.320
care about really

0:36:48.000,0:36:52.160
makes us very narrow and me giving

0:36:50.320,0:36:53.839
greater platform and voice to other

0:36:52.160,0:36:55.920
people's ideas

0:36:53.839,0:36:57.280
makes us better as a whole in producing

0:36:55.920,0:36:58.320
better content that connects with more

0:36:57.280,0:37:00.400
people

0:36:58.320,0:37:02.480
that's one small example yeah that seems

0:37:00.400,0:37:05.440
like a tough one you guys are getting

0:37:02.480,0:37:05.760
real deep on into into uh topics and

0:37:05.440,0:37:08.960
stuff

0:37:05.760,0:37:10.800
like you guys it's crazy yeah it's i saw

0:37:08.960,0:37:12.800
some of your posts about some of the

0:37:10.800,0:37:14.000
uh consumer reports that you guys have

0:37:12.800,0:37:16.800
been uh

0:37:14.000,0:37:17.760
jumping into with like cycling glee gear

0:37:16.800,0:37:20.960
and like

0:37:17.760,0:37:24.160
the bread flower market

0:37:20.960,0:37:25.839
and like how you receive like there's

0:37:24.160,0:37:28.320
just a report for everything

0:37:25.839,0:37:30.400
it's it's pretty interesting there is

0:37:28.320,0:37:31.359
that's probably an area for disruption

0:37:30.400,0:37:33.359
if i'm kind of

0:37:31.359,0:37:34.640
you know broadcasting where i think the

0:37:33.359,0:37:37.839
business might be able to go

0:37:34.640,0:37:37.839
there's there's two

0:37:38.640,0:37:42.000
let me kind of like dream out loud for a

0:37:40.480,0:37:44.960
second here there are

0:37:42.000,0:37:46.000
major trade industry groups in the world

0:37:44.960,0:37:50.480
of retail

0:37:46.000,0:37:51.920
that are basically unchallenged um

0:37:50.480,0:37:53.599
internet retailer which is now called

0:37:51.920,0:37:54.800
emarketer is one of them it's been

0:37:53.599,0:37:58.000
around for

0:37:54.800,0:37:59.280
30 40 years um maybe longer it's been

0:37:58.000,0:38:01.920
around for ages

0:37:59.280,0:38:04.079
and um and has had through like many

0:38:01.920,0:38:06.160
inceptions and internet retailer being

0:38:04.079,0:38:08.320
like one of the more modern versions of

0:38:06.160,0:38:10.240
it but like there was an age before that

0:38:08.320,0:38:11.599
and it's really just retail industry

0:38:10.240,0:38:14.480
trade reporting and

0:38:11.599,0:38:16.800
trade association groups that really

0:38:14.480,0:38:20.000
haven't made the leap to

0:38:16.800,0:38:21.839
the modern era of how

0:38:20.000,0:38:23.359
news is proliferated through social

0:38:21.839,0:38:26.079
media and

0:38:23.359,0:38:27.760
how millennials in particular consume

0:38:26.079,0:38:29.119
because they make up the largest portion

0:38:27.760,0:38:31.359
of the professional workforce

0:38:29.119,0:38:32.880
in that industry so connecting with the

0:38:31.359,0:38:33.280
millennial i think morning brew has

0:38:32.880,0:38:36.320
really

0:38:33.280,0:38:36.640
proved that it can be done you can carve

0:38:36.320,0:38:39.920
out

0:38:36.640,0:38:42.160
a new demographic like you can speak

0:38:39.920,0:38:44.640
directly to a different kind of a person

0:38:42.160,0:38:46.320
who wouldn't necessarily subscribe to

0:38:44.640,0:38:49.520
retail dive or

0:38:46.320,0:38:51.359
emarketer and so i think that they're

0:38:49.520,0:38:52.320
completely unchallenged and there's more

0:38:51.359,0:38:54.240
space than i think

0:38:52.320,0:38:56.400
most people give it credit for at least

0:38:54.240,0:38:58.720
in retail industry trade for

0:38:56.400,0:39:00.000
more voices and that's really where i

0:38:58.720,0:39:01.760
think future commerce can

0:39:00.000,0:39:03.520
uh be a voice that's speaking to people

0:39:01.760,0:39:05.440
that aren't being spoken to yet

0:39:03.520,0:39:06.960
um the other side is that there's a way

0:39:05.440,0:39:08.800
of commercializing that business that's

0:39:06.960,0:39:10.240
not just not predicated on free content

0:39:08.800,0:39:11.599
generation

0:39:10.240,0:39:12.960
because we could still do that we do

0:39:11.599,0:39:14.800
enterprise ad sales and we've had a

0:39:12.960,0:39:16.480
banner year it's been a great year

0:39:14.800,0:39:19.119
for business but if you want to take it

0:39:16.480,0:39:21.920
further industry reports i think is

0:39:19.119,0:39:23.520
another area that's ripe for disruption

0:39:21.920,0:39:25.760
there's really only two

0:39:23.520,0:39:26.720
large there's probably more but two that

0:39:25.760,0:39:28.160
are like

0:39:26.720,0:39:30.160
big names in the world of consumer

0:39:28.160,0:39:32.720
package goods that do global

0:39:30.160,0:39:33.920
like state of the trade reports for

0:39:32.720,0:39:35.599
everything that you could possibly think

0:39:33.920,0:39:37.119
of you named a few but like

0:39:35.599,0:39:38.640
there's everything from like minstrel

0:39:37.119,0:39:41.680
cups to

0:39:38.640,0:39:42.000
you know the global bread flour you know

0:39:41.680,0:39:45.200
uh

0:39:42.000,0:39:47.839
or gluten-free milflower

0:39:45.200,0:39:49.440
there's cycling you know apparel like

0:39:47.839,0:39:50.079
there's a trade industry report for

0:39:49.440,0:39:51.920
everything

0:39:50.079,0:39:53.440
they charge thousands of dollars a pop

0:39:51.920,0:39:55.839
they do pr based

0:39:53.440,0:39:57.760
marketing and consumer package goods

0:39:55.839,0:40:00.160
brand like natural deodorant brands

0:39:57.760,0:40:01.920
will buy them to get a landscape of what

0:40:00.160,0:40:04.720
you know taiwanese

0:40:01.920,0:40:06.800
buyers want in you know in their

0:40:04.720,0:40:08.960
consumer product and

0:40:06.800,0:40:10.240
a lot of this research is like hundreds

0:40:08.960,0:40:12.319
and hundreds of pages

0:40:10.240,0:40:14.240
a lot of it's really just like pdf

0:40:12.319,0:40:16.480
factories it's taking the same

0:40:14.240,0:40:18.000
research that you perform in one segment

0:40:16.480,0:40:20.240
and and using that

0:40:18.000,0:40:23.119
data and insights to inform another if

0:40:20.240,0:40:25.200
you could crack that nut you could build

0:40:23.119,0:40:26.960
you know a multi-million dollar business

0:40:25.200,0:40:28.800
just on that alone because more people

0:40:26.960,0:40:30.240
are looking for more of the same report

0:40:28.800,0:40:31.599
from a different outlet that might have

0:40:30.240,0:40:33.599
more editorial

0:40:31.599,0:40:34.960
rather than here's a bunch of raw data

0:40:33.599,0:40:36.240
um

0:40:34.960,0:40:37.520
which is something that i think we've

0:40:36.240,0:40:38.319
really figured out is how to put

0:40:37.520,0:40:42.160
editorial

0:40:38.319,0:40:43.839
to and insights into data um

0:40:42.160,0:40:45.359
so if i'm kind of forecasting where i

0:40:43.839,0:40:47.040
think the business like as

0:40:45.359,0:40:49.280
future commerce might go that might be

0:40:47.040,0:40:51.200
it because i think

0:40:49.280,0:40:52.800
the thing i figured out and maybe you

0:40:51.200,0:40:56.079
figured this out too

0:40:52.800,0:40:59.200
podcasting is kind of a zero-sum game

0:40:56.079,0:41:00.880
it's like it's a really great platform

0:40:59.200,0:41:04.160
on which

0:41:00.880,0:41:05.680
advertising based podcast it can be but

0:41:04.160,0:41:07.920
and there's there's like membership

0:41:05.680,0:41:09.200
models too but podcasting is really

0:41:07.920,0:41:12.000
great for building

0:41:09.200,0:41:13.760
a mechanism on which to like a platform

0:41:12.000,0:41:16.319
on which to build other things

0:41:13.760,0:41:18.319
so it gives you like this really clear

0:41:16.319,0:41:20.560
uh recency and frequency model for

0:41:18.319,0:41:22.560
developing editorialized content

0:41:20.560,0:41:24.960
it's really bad for getting active

0:41:22.560,0:41:27.440
participation if you don't have a

0:41:24.960,0:41:28.720
voice that's like very personality bound

0:41:27.440,0:41:30.880
like a joe rogan

0:41:28.720,0:41:32.480
so unless you have ultra super fans

0:41:30.880,0:41:33.920
people are very passive in the way that

0:41:32.480,0:41:35.119
they consume your content and that means

0:41:33.920,0:41:35.760
they're very passive in the way that

0:41:35.119,0:41:38.560
they engage

0:41:35.760,0:41:40.480
you as a brand and it's like pulling

0:41:38.560,0:41:42.079
people's teeth like you can get hundreds

0:41:40.480,0:41:43.359
and even thousands of people to listen

0:41:42.079,0:41:45.760
and pay attention

0:41:43.359,0:41:47.359
getting them to do much more than that

0:41:45.760,0:41:50.400
is pretty difficult

0:41:47.359,0:41:51.920
um and so finding ways to get to build

0:41:50.400,0:41:52.480
on top of that is like well what else

0:41:51.920,0:41:54.000
can we do

0:41:52.480,0:41:56.000
really well well we're good at putting

0:41:54.000,0:41:57.520
putting out two podcasts a week

0:41:56.000,0:41:59.040
we've got stairway to ceo and future

0:41:57.520,0:42:01.119
commerce well we could probably put out

0:41:59.040,0:42:02.319
two newsletters a week as well and we

0:42:01.119,0:42:04.319
can put out you know four

0:42:02.319,0:42:06.400
research reports a year and we could put

0:42:04.319,0:42:06.800
out you know three webinars and we can

0:42:06.400,0:42:10.000
do

0:42:06.800,0:42:11.040
you know uh you know two essays uh a

0:42:10.000,0:42:13.440
week as well

0:42:11.040,0:42:14.160
and the way you scale that up is like

0:42:13.440,0:42:16.160
you just you

0:42:14.160,0:42:17.839
you need to figure out how you can some

0:42:16.160,0:42:19.520
of it's content repurposing but not all

0:42:17.839,0:42:20.880
of it and

0:42:19.520,0:42:22.319
but it's the same mechanism that

0:42:20.880,0:42:23.680
publishes a podcast is the same

0:42:22.319,0:42:24.960
mechanism that can be used to create all

0:42:23.680,0:42:27.040
the other stuff

0:42:24.960,0:42:28.880
um sorry i feel like i'm just chatting

0:42:27.040,0:42:30.319
your ear off kind of thinking no no it's

0:42:28.880,0:42:32.000
it no

0:42:30.319,0:42:34.160
it's interesting it's interesting that i

0:42:32.000,0:42:36.160
always love like brainstorming like

0:42:34.160,0:42:37.520
directions and business and stuff but it

0:42:36.160,0:42:39.200
sounds like you're saying

0:42:37.520,0:42:41.200
a direction that might make more sense

0:42:39.200,0:42:42.000
or like these industry reports that are

0:42:41.200,0:42:45.040
like

0:42:42.000,0:42:48.079
very like valuable and actionable for

0:42:45.040,0:42:49.040
um brands to to pay for to kind of

0:42:48.079,0:42:52.720
inform their

0:42:49.040,0:42:54.319
their product direction yeah i i think

0:42:52.720,0:42:57.200
if you look at

0:42:54.319,0:42:58.480
yes because that's a product it's it's

0:42:57.200,0:42:59.280
it's actually kind of a productized

0:42:58.480,0:43:02.079
service

0:42:59.280,0:43:02.560
right right like the the future of that

0:43:02.079,0:43:05.119
business

0:43:02.560,0:43:06.640
is developing insights for an industry

0:43:05.119,0:43:06.960
and if you can make a product around

0:43:06.640,0:43:08.960
that

0:43:06.960,0:43:11.119
then you can develop other parts of the

0:43:08.960,0:43:12.880
business that can go deeper

0:43:11.119,0:43:14.560
and it creates its own like flywheel

0:43:12.880,0:43:16.240
effect and that other content that you

0:43:14.560,0:43:16.720
create could be valuable and interesting

0:43:16.240,0:43:18.319
for that

0:43:16.720,0:43:19.359
and that's you know then you get a

0:43:18.319,0:43:21.040
little bit of the double entry

0:43:19.359,0:43:23.440
accounting on

0:43:21.040,0:43:25.599
on audience building like morning brew

0:43:23.440,0:43:27.200
did if we're looking at morning brew as

0:43:25.599,0:43:29.440
validating a business model if you can

0:43:27.200,0:43:31.359
sell yourself for 75 million dollars

0:43:29.440,0:43:32.800
based purely on enterprise ad sales and

0:43:31.359,0:43:35.119
20 million

0:43:32.800,0:43:36.480
in annualized revenue how much how many

0:43:35.119,0:43:39.440
of their subscribers that are

0:43:36.480,0:43:40.240
on the morning brew email also get

0:43:39.440,0:43:42.079
retail

0:43:40.240,0:43:43.760
uh brew and get marketing brew and

0:43:42.079,0:43:45.280
emerging tech brew as well

0:43:43.760,0:43:46.640
those are also considered audience and

0:43:45.280,0:43:47.680
it's the same person across four

0:43:46.640,0:43:50.160
properties

0:43:47.680,0:43:51.280
so if if if you're if you're thinking

0:43:50.160,0:43:53.280
through

0:43:51.280,0:43:54.560
that like that validates a business

0:43:53.280,0:43:56.960
model that other people like

0:43:54.560,0:43:59.520
sort of validated an old school approach

0:43:56.960,0:44:01.680
but doing it in a new school way

0:43:59.520,0:44:03.920
where in a time where people were trying

0:44:01.680,0:44:06.480
to be like let's focus only on like

0:44:03.920,0:44:07.760
subscription solo media operator

0:44:06.480,0:44:09.680
businesses

0:44:07.760,0:44:11.440
i feel like that that time doesn't

0:44:09.680,0:44:13.599
really like that won't really scale

0:44:11.440,0:44:14.640
look at any great youtube channel look

0:44:13.599,0:44:16.880
at like

0:44:14.640,0:44:19.040
youtube personalities like mr beast

0:44:16.880,0:44:20.000
there are there's a huge production team

0:44:19.040,0:44:23.200
behind those

0:44:20.000,0:44:25.200
there's it's the solo media operator is

0:44:23.200,0:44:26.400
is really great for burning yourself out

0:44:25.200,0:44:27.760
and not much more

0:44:26.400,0:44:29.760
so like how do you how do you stay in

0:44:27.760,0:44:31.200
the business for eight ten years like

0:44:29.760,0:44:33.440
that's the thing i'm trying to fix

0:44:31.200,0:44:35.520
figure out um and that means you need

0:44:33.440,0:44:38.000
more people doing more things that are

0:44:35.520,0:44:39.359
you know really uh i almost said

0:44:38.000,0:44:40.560
specialized and realized that would take

0:44:39.359,0:44:43.440
the wind out of my other

0:44:40.560,0:44:44.800
argument so but are really adept at

0:44:43.440,0:44:48.000
speaking into one

0:44:44.800,0:44:49.680
one area like one area of the industry

0:44:48.000,0:44:51.280
and have credibility and authority there

0:44:49.680,0:44:51.839
and that's why we brought lee green on

0:44:51.280,0:44:54.160
for the

0:44:51.839,0:44:56.000
the stairway to ceo podcast is because

0:44:54.160,0:44:57.520
she's built and sold businesses and

0:44:56.000,0:44:59.680
she's raised venture

0:44:57.520,0:45:01.440
and you know she's been acquired she's

0:44:59.680,0:45:01.760
gone through you know investment bank

0:45:01.440,0:45:04.720
and

0:45:01.760,0:45:06.240
and you know she's she's she's gone and

0:45:04.720,0:45:07.040
now she's helping other entrepreneurs do

0:45:06.240,0:45:08.640
that too

0:45:07.040,0:45:10.000
she understands the startup hustle and

0:45:08.640,0:45:11.280
what it means for modern business and

0:45:10.000,0:45:12.960
modern work

0:45:11.280,0:45:14.400
i need more credibility more people like

0:45:12.960,0:45:16.800
that who have that kind of street cred

0:45:14.400,0:45:18.800
to help us figure out what the future of

0:45:16.800,0:45:20.960
that of future commerce is going to be

0:45:18.800,0:45:23.119
because nobody gets anywhere alone

0:45:20.960,0:45:24.319
we do it as a team but i've never i'm

0:45:23.119,0:45:25.920
not going to like

0:45:24.319,0:45:27.440
if i have to develop street cred in

0:45:25.920,0:45:29.920
every one of these verticals

0:45:27.440,0:45:31.520
uh it'll i'll be 80 by the time i get

0:45:29.920,0:45:32.000
around to actually doing anything of any

0:45:31.520,0:45:35.680
value

0:45:32.000,0:45:38.079
so um what's the um the stairway to ceo

0:45:35.680,0:45:41.359
podcast what's that one about

0:45:38.079,0:45:43.040
yeah uh lee greene so she founded a

0:45:41.359,0:45:44.480
business called wear away

0:45:43.040,0:45:46.000
which was an influencer marketing

0:45:44.480,0:45:47.680
platform and sort of like a talent

0:45:46.000,0:45:50.079
agency for influencers

0:45:47.680,0:45:51.359
it was acquired by a company called grin

0:45:50.079,0:45:53.119
um and grin

0:45:51.359,0:45:55.200
is like one of the largest influencer

0:45:53.119,0:45:58.480
marketing uh platforms

0:45:55.200,0:46:02.240
in the world um and uh

0:45:58.480,0:46:05.040
so she's done the angel and vc uh thing

0:46:02.240,0:46:06.800
and now she herself is an angel and um

0:46:05.040,0:46:11.040
she's helping other entrepreneurs

0:46:06.800,0:46:13.200
her passion was like understanding

0:46:11.040,0:46:14.079
for herself like understanding the

0:46:13.200,0:46:15.920
things that happen

0:46:14.079,0:46:17.599
in your younger years and your formative

0:46:15.920,0:46:20.640
ages that

0:46:17.599,0:46:22.480
give you sort of the

0:46:20.640,0:46:24.079
the desire to want to be in some kind of

0:46:22.480,0:46:28.079
leadership and

0:46:24.079,0:46:30.800
so she talks to a lot of like uh

0:46:28.079,0:46:32.000
mostly the startup ceo types folks like

0:46:30.800,0:46:34.640
herself who have been through that

0:46:32.000,0:46:37.680
journey and talks a lot about childhood

0:46:34.640,0:46:39.200
and a lot about um you know early career

0:46:37.680,0:46:41.280
and sort of the dissatisfaction with

0:46:39.200,0:46:42.640
answering to other people and this idea

0:46:41.280,0:46:44.000
that there's something more out there

0:46:42.640,0:46:45.760
for yourself to have to

0:46:44.000,0:46:47.520
like the desire or the urine to build

0:46:45.760,0:46:50.800
something for yourself so that you know

0:46:47.520,0:46:52.880
you're not beholden to anyone

0:46:50.800,0:46:54.480
and she explores that in depth it's

0:46:52.880,0:46:57.200
sometimes you know the pod goes for an

0:46:54.480,0:47:00.079
hour and a half two hours and

0:46:57.200,0:47:02.000
it's a long-form interview style show

0:47:00.079,0:47:04.240
with people who have built something

0:47:02.000,0:47:06.480
that is you know that isn't necessarily

0:47:04.240,0:47:09.119
squarely centered in the world of retail

0:47:06.480,0:47:11.280
nice and it's a great podcast it's been

0:47:09.119,0:47:14.640
running now i think we're on episode 26

0:47:11.280,0:47:15.839
so um and she crushes that

0:47:14.640,0:47:18.079
i mean she's just a brilliant

0:47:15.839,0:47:20.000
interviewer and she knows how to ask the

0:47:18.079,0:47:21.599
like howard stern type questions to get

0:47:20.000,0:47:23.599
people to open up

0:47:21.599,0:47:25.200
in a way to that i don't think i could

0:47:23.599,0:47:26.319
ever do um

0:47:25.200,0:47:28.880
she gets deep man she's like a

0:47:26.319,0:47:31.680
psychologist i don't know she's like

0:47:28.880,0:47:32.240
unearthed stuff that's really great oh i

0:47:31.680,0:47:34.559
think

0:47:32.240,0:47:35.680
i think founders need a psychologist

0:47:34.559,0:47:37.920
most of the time

0:47:35.680,0:47:39.040
every one of them it's true a little

0:47:37.920,0:47:41.280
crazy going on

0:47:39.040,0:47:43.280
um by the way congratulations on the

0:47:41.280,0:47:44.880
acquisition of something digital

0:47:43.280,0:47:47.359
uh thank you very much yeah i don't know

0:47:44.880,0:47:50.839
if that was a month or two ago now but

0:47:47.359,0:47:52.000
that's uh that's uh it's uh five weeks

0:47:50.839,0:47:54.160
and

0:47:52.000,0:47:56.640
six hours i'm not that i'm counting

0:47:54.160,0:47:56.640
seven um

0:47:57.280,0:48:00.960
it's uh it's been a wild ride i've

0:48:00.160,0:48:02.800
learned a lot

0:48:00.960,0:48:04.160
um it's actually the second acquisition

0:48:02.800,0:48:07.440
i've lived through but the other one was

0:48:04.160,0:48:10.800
on such a small scale um

0:48:07.440,0:48:13.200
and in in sort of like a uh

0:48:10.800,0:48:15.599
in a in a much cleaner way and i wasn't

0:48:13.200,0:48:18.720
involved in executive leadership so

0:48:15.599,0:48:22.319
i've learned a ton uh being through this

0:48:18.720,0:48:24.480
and if i could rep um what

0:48:22.319,0:48:25.760
like what the lay of the land is in in

0:48:24.480,0:48:27.839
the something digital world so you know

0:48:25.760,0:48:30.559
something digital like really focused on

0:48:27.839,0:48:31.760
e-commerce only and delivering services

0:48:30.559,0:48:35.119
for e-commerce

0:48:31.760,0:48:39.440
and um you know we

0:48:35.119,0:48:41.440
we we're about 108 people-ish

0:48:39.440,0:48:42.480
depending on how you count it uh 108

0:48:41.440,0:48:45.520
ftes

0:48:42.480,0:48:46.720
um based out of new york city and just

0:48:45.520,0:48:48.480
kind of like

0:48:46.720,0:48:50.319
killing it like the last five years have

0:48:48.480,0:48:52.880
been just tremendous growth

0:48:50.319,0:48:53.680
and um so and we just have like the best

0:48:52.880,0:48:58.000
team

0:48:53.680,0:48:59.680
um but to kind of extend your reach in

0:48:58.000,0:49:01.200
in the world right now with as much

0:48:59.680,0:49:03.920
focus on e-commerce as there

0:49:01.200,0:49:05.119
is uh you really need a bunch of other

0:49:03.920,0:49:06.720
pieces of the pie

0:49:05.119,0:49:08.079
uh to to begin because we've always

0:49:06.720,0:49:09.760
punched above our weight we've done some

0:49:08.079,0:49:12.800
great work and very proud of it

0:49:09.760,0:49:14.000
um but to find like the unlock to get to

0:49:12.800,0:49:15.520
the next level

0:49:14.000,0:49:16.720
is the thing that we were sort of

0:49:15.520,0:49:18.000
seeking out and i feel like we really

0:49:16.720,0:49:22.000
found that so the

0:49:18.000,0:49:25.359
it's a bit of a russian nesting doll um

0:49:22.000,0:49:28.000
uh relationship to to the

0:49:25.359,0:49:29.440
our acquirers so uh the company that we

0:49:28.000,0:49:30.960
are now part of is called right point

0:49:29.440,0:49:34.079
they're based out of chicago

0:49:30.960,0:49:35.680
together something digital plus right

0:49:34.079,0:49:39.200
point is about 800 people

0:49:35.680,0:49:40.319
right point has six offices uh one is in

0:49:39.200,0:49:43.920
the uk one's in

0:49:40.319,0:49:46.319
australia and so it's a global uh

0:49:43.920,0:49:47.440
company and they've you know they do

0:49:46.319,0:49:49.920
some commerce but

0:49:47.440,0:49:51.359
not really um they have a small uh

0:49:49.920,0:49:51.839
number of clients in the commerce space

0:49:51.359,0:49:54.960
but their

0:49:51.839,0:49:58.400
their customers are you know ge and

0:49:54.960,0:50:00.640
and um yeah and uh

0:49:58.400,0:50:01.680
you know big big global consumer package

0:50:00.640,0:50:04.079
goods brand

0:50:01.680,0:50:05.440
um that company rightpoint is their

0:50:04.079,0:50:07.520
parent company is a company called

0:50:05.440,0:50:09.520
genpak which is a

0:50:07.520,0:50:12.720
global digital transformation company

0:50:09.520,0:50:15.119
that does business process optimization

0:50:12.720,0:50:15.839
and um has 90 000 employees and is

0:50:15.119,0:50:18.640
traded on

0:50:15.839,0:50:20.319
the new york stock exchange and um so

0:50:18.640,0:50:21.359
gen pact is like our parent parent

0:50:20.319,0:50:24.400
company now

0:50:21.359,0:50:24.720
and uh but we'll be falling into uh you

0:50:24.400,0:50:26.720
know

0:50:24.720,0:50:27.839
we'll be uh you know we'll be part of

0:50:26.720,0:50:29.359
the right point family here in the

0:50:27.839,0:50:31.040
united states

0:50:29.359,0:50:32.400
and you know what's crazy is like just

0:50:31.040,0:50:34.319
understanding that there's a whole world

0:50:32.400,0:50:36.960
of experience-led design

0:50:34.319,0:50:39.440
and sort of thinking outside the box of

0:50:36.960,0:50:41.200
oh here's magento and shopify plus

0:50:39.440,0:50:43.200
it's more about you know what is the

0:50:41.200,0:50:44.240
next level of e-commerce experience

0:50:43.200,0:50:46.079
that's going to be totally

0:50:44.240,0:50:47.440
differentiated from anything else that

0:50:46.079,0:50:49.760
exists in the world

0:50:47.440,0:50:51.200
that's what big big companies want to do

0:50:49.760,0:50:53.440
they want to like completely

0:50:51.200,0:50:54.559
rethink the way that we do e-commerce

0:50:53.440,0:50:56.240
and

0:50:54.559,0:50:57.680
so as more companies need that kind of

0:50:56.240,0:50:59.440
thing they'll need expertise in

0:50:57.680,0:51:00.400
implementing on certain platforms and

0:50:59.440,0:51:02.319
something digital

0:51:00.400,0:51:03.920
brings that capability to right point

0:51:02.319,0:51:06.800
nice and

0:51:03.920,0:51:08.720
it's awesome man i'm that's cool i've

0:51:06.800,0:51:12.720
never worked for a large company ever

0:51:08.720,0:51:14.800
um yeah so this will be a big bit of a

0:51:12.720,0:51:16.720
a new challenge to take on for me that's

0:51:14.800,0:51:18.880
awesome man what um

0:51:16.720,0:51:20.319
when you talk about like that next stage

0:51:18.880,0:51:21.040
of e-commerce where they're just doing

0:51:20.319,0:51:22.800
things that are

0:51:21.040,0:51:25.760
totally totally new and different like

0:51:22.800,0:51:27.760
what are like what are some

0:51:25.760,0:51:29.359
examples you probably can't get much

0:51:27.760,0:51:29.920
detail obviously anything like that no

0:51:29.359,0:51:32.720
you can

0:51:29.920,0:51:34.240
um i mean especially now more than ever

0:51:32.720,0:51:36.160
like i'm thinking there's this

0:51:34.240,0:51:37.280
you know and things like that headless

0:51:36.160,0:51:39.280
is a is a new

0:51:37.280,0:51:41.200
isn't yeah headless is definitely top of

0:51:39.280,0:51:44.480
mind um

0:51:41.200,0:51:45.280
in that headless commerce can sort of

0:51:44.480,0:51:47.119
live anywhere

0:51:45.280,0:51:48.960
i think about actually how how

0:51:47.119,0:51:52.160
forward-thinking magento had been

0:51:48.960,0:51:55.839
in the past um talking about

0:51:52.160,0:51:58.079
um you know every

0:51:55.839,0:51:59.440
what was i forget the how they said it

0:51:58.079,0:52:03.040
but it was something like

0:51:59.440,0:52:05.040
every every experience shoppable

0:52:03.040,0:52:06.880
and like making every experience

0:52:05.040,0:52:09.040
shoppable and this idea that

0:52:06.880,0:52:10.400
you know there's a commerce centered

0:52:09.040,0:52:12.000
component to everything

0:52:10.400,0:52:14.000
in the universe now and you look at the

0:52:12.000,0:52:15.440
validation of that buzzfeed just

0:52:14.000,0:52:16.319
launched commerce on its content

0:52:15.440,0:52:19.119
property

0:52:16.319,0:52:20.240
nbc universal is launching uh e-commerce

0:52:19.119,0:52:22.559
that sits alongside

0:52:20.240,0:52:24.480
its uh over-the-top uh video uh

0:52:22.559,0:52:27.599
platforms and online uh

0:52:24.480,0:52:29.440
uh you know online video so you know the

0:52:27.599,0:52:31.280
idea that we may live in a future where

0:52:29.440,0:52:31.839
you're watching stranger things and you

0:52:31.280,0:52:33.520
can buy

0:52:31.839,0:52:34.880
the stranger things nike shoes while

0:52:33.520,0:52:35.680
you're watching it on netflix with the

0:52:34.880,0:52:39.119
click of a button

0:52:35.680,0:52:40.800
is not a far distant reality it's that

0:52:39.119,0:52:42.960
the ecommerce platforms of many years

0:52:40.800,0:52:44.880
ago that are headless capable today

0:52:42.960,0:52:46.400
will be powering those those

0:52:44.880,0:52:47.920
opportunities and in that case you don't

0:52:46.400,0:52:49.760
need front-end development for

0:52:47.920,0:52:52.640
e-commerce it becomes

0:52:49.760,0:52:53.280
an oms and like order management and

0:52:52.640,0:52:55.599
catalog

0:52:53.280,0:52:56.480
and and sort of personalization piece

0:52:55.599,0:52:58.319
and

0:52:56.480,0:53:00.000
and then it's at a different scale right

0:52:58.319,0:53:02.559
it's at netflix scale it's at

0:53:00.000,0:53:03.839
you know nbc scale and so that's where i

0:53:02.559,0:53:06.880
think commerce is going

0:53:03.839,0:53:08.400
and that's experiential right it's not

0:53:06.880,0:53:10.240
think about the way that we shop online

0:53:08.400,0:53:12.000
today it's not the way that you shop

0:53:10.240,0:53:13.040
online in real life unless you're going

0:53:12.000,0:53:14.720
to the grocery store you go to the

0:53:13.040,0:53:16.319
grocery store you have a list

0:53:14.720,0:53:18.160
and you're going for specific things and

0:53:16.319,0:53:20.480
you may buy other things on the way

0:53:18.160,0:53:21.599
but you go with a purpose that's not how

0:53:20.480,0:53:24.720
you shop at the mall

0:53:21.599,0:53:26.000
you go to the mall you're walking around

0:53:24.720,0:53:28.400
and you're taking things in it's a

0:53:26.000,0:53:31.680
completely different modality and

0:53:28.400,0:53:34.319
and so we've not solved for that piece

0:53:31.680,0:53:35.040
in in like the entertainment shopping as

0:53:34.319,0:53:37.599
entertainment

0:53:35.040,0:53:39.520
kind of thing that's where i think

0:53:37.599,0:53:42.640
experiential shopping

0:53:39.520,0:53:44.559
can live and if you have the right team

0:53:42.640,0:53:46.160
and i think that right point does um

0:53:44.559,0:53:48.800
just seeing like its past

0:53:46.160,0:53:49.520
work with uh hulu as a streaming

0:53:48.800,0:53:53.040
platform

0:53:49.520,0:53:56.000
and some of the work they've done in um

0:53:53.040,0:53:58.400
uh in in in other like mobile commerce

0:53:56.000,0:54:00.720
contexts uh i really think that having

0:53:58.400,0:54:02.319
an experiential design team that can

0:54:00.720,0:54:03.839
come along with the commerce capability

0:54:02.319,0:54:04.880
is the thing that will amplify it to the

0:54:03.839,0:54:07.520
next level

0:54:04.880,0:54:08.640
um and this is by the way not new uh

0:54:07.520,0:54:10.400
things if you

0:54:08.640,0:54:12.079
there's a interesting forester report

0:54:10.400,0:54:15.040
i'll kind of leave you with this idea

0:54:12.079,0:54:16.240
uh a forester report that just came out

0:54:15.040,0:54:18.240
um that talked about

0:54:16.240,0:54:19.280
uh a guy named ted shadler who's like

0:54:18.240,0:54:23.200
their new

0:54:19.280,0:54:25.359
uh commerce services analyst

0:54:23.200,0:54:26.880
he just had this uh huge report that

0:54:25.359,0:54:27.920
just came out about uh service

0:54:26.880,0:54:30.480
orchestration

0:54:27.920,0:54:31.200
and talking about like the future of

0:54:30.480,0:54:34.079
services

0:54:31.200,0:54:35.599
in commerce is not technology-centric or

0:54:34.079,0:54:38.240
platform-centric

0:54:35.599,0:54:40.000
that that time has come and gone because

0:54:38.240,0:54:41.839
platform specialization technology

0:54:40.000,0:54:42.640
specialization is kind of a commodity

0:54:41.839,0:54:44.240
now

0:54:42.640,0:54:45.920
you can go pretty much into the world to

0:54:44.240,0:54:47.119
find it this is one of the things i want

0:54:45.920,0:54:48.400
to get into where you were talking about

0:54:47.119,0:54:51.280
how strategy

0:54:48.400,0:54:52.000
is the more important piece and the tech

0:54:51.280,0:54:54.720
implementation

0:54:52.000,0:54:57.119
has gotten commodified and i kind of was

0:54:54.720,0:54:58.720
dying to like i miss arguing with you so

0:54:57.119,0:55:00.480
much about these types of things

0:54:58.720,0:55:02.400
but i know we're i know we're at our

0:55:00.480,0:55:03.359
time so we won't get into it too much

0:55:02.400,0:55:05.440
but it's a no i

0:55:03.359,0:55:07.520
just to wrap up the thought i i think

0:55:05.440,0:55:11.280
that the the next wave

0:55:07.520,0:55:16.000
of uh services and e-commerce

0:55:11.280,0:55:18.160
is it happens in in two arenas one is

0:55:16.000,0:55:19.680
well there's strategy that's part of it

0:55:18.160,0:55:23.520
everybody thinks they're strategic

0:55:19.680,0:55:25.440
in reality most uh

0:55:23.520,0:55:26.799
and i'm i we've been guilty of it as

0:55:25.440,0:55:28.720
something digital too

0:55:26.799,0:55:30.160
right you have a hammer and so

0:55:28.720,0:55:32.240
everything looks like a nail

0:55:30.160,0:55:34.160
and so you sort of cram it into the

0:55:32.240,0:55:35.920
context of how you think about things

0:55:34.160,0:55:38.640
because you know how to deliver a cert

0:55:35.920,0:55:39.760
in a certain way in reality in the

0:55:38.640,0:55:41.760
future

0:55:39.760,0:55:43.119
uh commerce services are probably going

0:55:41.760,0:55:43.920
to be much more strategic in the

0:55:43.119,0:55:47.200
application

0:55:43.920,0:55:48.960
of any technology at all in service of a

0:55:47.200,0:55:50.880
particular experience

0:55:48.960,0:55:52.720
so it's not about what technology is

0:55:50.880,0:55:54.160
suitable for a particular retailer who's

0:55:52.720,0:55:55.920
selling in one channel

0:55:54.160,0:55:57.680
it's about how do we think about the

0:55:55.920,0:55:57.920
entirety of a customer journey how do

0:55:57.680,0:56:00.640
you

0:55:57.920,0:56:02.960
provoke like incentivize a customer to

0:56:00.640,0:56:04.240
be multimodal to shop on the web and

0:56:02.960,0:56:07.280
then convert on

0:56:04.240,0:56:09.440
their mobile phone um and these require

0:56:07.280,0:56:10.960
understanding of consumer psychology and

0:56:09.440,0:56:12.880
understanding how you

0:56:10.960,0:56:14.400
play the long game with the customer and

0:56:12.880,0:56:17.520
less about the technology

0:56:14.400,0:56:19.280
that you use to get them to you know to

0:56:17.520,0:56:21.200
live rent free in their brains

0:56:19.280,0:56:22.400
and that's going to be the the real

0:56:21.200,0:56:24.400
trick for

0:56:22.400,0:56:26.240
services companies in the future is that

0:56:24.400,0:56:28.720
that's the future of services

0:56:26.240,0:56:30.160
um the other side of services and how

0:56:28.720,0:56:32.799
how you bill for it

0:56:30.160,0:56:34.000
and how you actually like set up uh

0:56:32.799,0:56:37.200
structures for

0:56:34.000,0:56:39.359
having shared success and so another

0:56:37.200,0:56:43.440
part of his report was

0:56:39.359,0:56:46.160
um uh value-based outcomes like

0:56:43.440,0:56:47.520
if you it's less about hours and less

0:56:46.160,0:56:49.920
about delivering on

0:56:47.520,0:56:50.640
you know a scope of work and and uh in a

0:56:49.920,0:56:52.960
budget

0:56:50.640,0:56:54.319
and way more about the outcome and

0:56:52.960,0:56:56.160
value-based outcomes is

0:56:54.319,0:56:57.920
the future of services work in in

0:56:56.160,0:56:58.720
commerce and it's we can see that you

0:56:57.920,0:57:01.839
know

0:56:58.720,0:57:02.720
as people are spending less in uh in

0:57:01.839,0:57:04.400
back office

0:57:02.720,0:57:05.520
and especially in times of covid they're

0:57:04.400,0:57:07.119
wanting to spend a lot more on the

0:57:05.520,0:57:08.960
customer experience side i think we're

0:57:07.119,0:57:11.839
going to see a lot more of that kind of

0:57:08.960,0:57:13.920
uh incentivizing of of you know

0:57:11.839,0:57:15.599
experience design and commerce

0:57:13.920,0:57:17.040
it's a lot there to unpack and i'd love

0:57:15.599,0:57:18.559
for you to argue more about it i don't

0:57:17.040,0:57:20.240
have a ton of time to do it

0:57:18.559,0:57:21.760
we'll have to find some time to argue

0:57:20.240,0:57:24.000
again soon

0:57:21.760,0:57:25.599
but uh man it was so good to catch up

0:57:24.000,0:57:27.520
man i miss uh

0:57:25.599,0:57:30.000
talking to you and uh and doing the

0:57:27.520,0:57:34.400
podcast uh yeah same here man

0:57:30.000,0:57:34.400
it's a blast