Success!

#87 Interview with CTO & Co-founder of Vue Storefront - Headless PWA for eCommerce | Filip Rakowski

Filip is the CTO & Co-founder @ Vue Storefront - #1 Headless PWA for eCommerce.

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/filip-rakowski-a43671129/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/filrakowski

Full show transcript: https://v3.commercehero.io/podcast/87

Transcript
0:00:00.080,0:00:04.160
uh when you talk about vue storefront

0:00:02.240,0:00:04.480
being launched as a separate company and

0:00:04.160,0:00:09.359
you're

0:00:04.480,0:00:09.359
like so i'm gonna drink a lot tonight

0:00:09.679,0:00:17.920
i started laughing and then it was like

0:00:12.160,0:00:17.920
crickets you know

0:00:18.990,0:00:28.239
[Music]

0:00:28.800,0:00:31.840
the hardest thing for me right now is

0:00:31.359,0:00:33.520
that

0:00:31.840,0:00:34.880
when i was a developer it was pretty

0:00:33.520,0:00:38.239
easy for me to measure

0:00:34.880,0:00:41.520
uh my my work to measure my

0:00:38.239,0:00:44.160
like to measure how good i am at work

0:00:41.520,0:00:44.719
to measure how productive i am uh

0:00:44.160,0:00:46.800
because

0:00:44.719,0:00:48.399
this measurement was basically amount of

0:00:46.800,0:00:50.719
code and maybe

0:00:48.399,0:00:51.440
an amount of bugs in this code and

0:00:50.719,0:00:53.440
basically that's

0:00:51.440,0:00:55.520
it and the number of stars now and the

0:00:53.440,0:00:58.160
github repo

0:00:55.520,0:01:00.079
yeah yeah so this this is more like a

0:00:58.160,0:01:03.280
marketing kpi but of course like

0:01:00.079,0:01:04.239
i'm out advocating for that as well and

0:01:03.280,0:01:06.320
right now

0:01:04.239,0:01:07.439
the measurement of of my work is

0:01:06.320,0:01:10.400
basically what

0:01:07.439,0:01:10.880
number of emails number of calls i i was

0:01:10.400,0:01:13.119
never

0:01:10.880,0:01:14.479
i was never a fan of calls i really

0:01:13.119,0:01:16.320
believe that you know

0:01:14.479,0:01:18.560
at least half of them is totally

0:01:16.320,0:01:19.280
unnecessary and and can be handled on

0:01:18.560,0:01:21.520
slack

0:01:19.280,0:01:22.640
right and i was in a very very big

0:01:21.520,0:01:25.840
project

0:01:22.640,0:01:27.840
uh for for for a company from canada

0:01:25.840,0:01:28.400
there was more than 25 developers in

0:01:27.840,0:01:32.479
there

0:01:28.400,0:01:35.360
and you know it was a big corporation uh

0:01:32.479,0:01:36.960
and basically they had these dailies and

0:01:35.360,0:01:39.759
these dailies were taking

0:01:36.960,0:01:40.400
i think something about an hour because

0:01:39.759,0:01:43.680
they look like

0:01:40.400,0:01:46.799
daily stand-ups yeah yeah

0:01:43.680,0:01:48.240
yep like everyone are calling this daily

0:01:46.799,0:01:49.680
in poland i'm not sure

0:01:48.240,0:01:51.360
like how it is in other countries but

0:01:49.680,0:01:54.479
basically like it was taking an

0:01:51.360,0:01:55.439
hour every day 25 people or something

0:01:54.479,0:01:58.000
like that

0:01:55.439,0:01:58.960
talking about what they did and you know

0:01:58.000,0:02:01.360
the reality

0:01:58.960,0:02:02.960
is that no one cares like you will hear

0:02:01.360,0:02:04.960
from two or three people

0:02:02.960,0:02:06.479
and then you will just mute it and start

0:02:04.960,0:02:09.759
browsing something

0:02:06.479,0:02:11.440
so it was right

0:02:09.759,0:02:13.520
and i think like most of the meeting

0:02:11.440,0:02:16.400
meetings look like this so

0:02:13.520,0:02:18.000
we transitioned from these dailies uh

0:02:16.400,0:02:20.720
daily stand-ups to slack

0:02:18.000,0:02:22.239
stand-ups where basically someone was

0:02:20.720,0:02:24.000
creating a threat with a date

0:02:22.239,0:02:25.840
and then under the threat everyone were

0:02:24.000,0:02:28.080
posting what they did

0:02:25.840,0:02:29.120
right and i think it's like this for two

0:02:28.080,0:02:32.239
years right now

0:02:29.120,0:02:33.280
and it works pretty well and if when you

0:02:32.239,0:02:35.280
think about this

0:02:33.280,0:02:37.360
most of the meetings could be handled

0:02:35.280,0:02:40.400
like this yeah

0:02:37.360,0:02:42.319
yeah totally i i i uh

0:02:40.400,0:02:43.760
i'm not a big fan of meetings i try to

0:02:42.319,0:02:46.720
avoid

0:02:43.760,0:02:47.760
phone calls i i've had a couple of

0:02:46.720,0:02:49.519
customers or

0:02:47.760,0:02:52.000
potential customers ask about getting on

0:02:49.519,0:02:55.599
the phone recently and i'm just like

0:02:52.000,0:02:57.519
maybe later but i i like um the podcast

0:02:55.599,0:02:59.200
i like because it's more of a

0:02:57.519,0:03:00.800
interac it's more of a meaningful

0:02:59.200,0:03:02.840
interaction you know than like the thing

0:03:00.800,0:03:04.959
where it's like yeah

0:03:02.840,0:03:07.040
yeah different you know

0:03:04.959,0:03:08.640
i also enjoy very much like you know

0:03:07.040,0:03:10.480
drinking on

0:03:08.640,0:03:12.000
a camera right now because you know we

0:03:10.480,0:03:14.800
have all this pandemic

0:03:12.000,0:03:15.840
it's great to travel people are a little

0:03:14.800,0:03:17.599
bit scared

0:03:15.840,0:03:19.120
as well so what we are doing with our

0:03:17.599,0:03:20.239
friends is basically we are having a

0:03:19.120,0:03:22.080
video call

0:03:20.239,0:03:24.400
once per once per week once per two

0:03:22.080,0:03:26.560
weeks it depends but we're having this

0:03:24.400,0:03:28.480
and we're just you know drinking beer

0:03:26.560,0:03:30.319
discussing and this is super cool

0:03:28.480,0:03:32.159
because right now i'm meeting with

0:03:30.319,0:03:32.959
people i wasn't able to meet for a very

0:03:32.159,0:03:35.360
long time

0:03:32.959,0:03:36.319
right another my friends from like when

0:03:35.360,0:03:37.920
i was younger

0:03:36.319,0:03:39.840
and right now we're meeting each week

0:03:37.920,0:03:41.840
just because you know just because of

0:03:39.840,0:03:43.840
pandemic this is that's really cool cool

0:03:41.840,0:03:46.239
yeah it's so it's so funny because i

0:03:43.840,0:03:47.200
watched your reacticon talk uh last

0:03:46.239,0:03:49.840
night

0:03:47.200,0:03:50.400
and uh there was so many parts where i

0:03:49.840,0:03:53.439
was like

0:03:50.400,0:03:55.040
literally cracking up like like you were

0:03:53.439,0:03:56.080
cracking a joke but there was like no

0:03:55.040,0:03:58.480
audience

0:03:56.080,0:04:00.400
and like one of them when you said uh

0:03:58.480,0:04:02.319
when you talked about vue storefront

0:04:00.400,0:04:03.519
being launched as a separate company and

0:04:02.319,0:04:07.519
you're like

0:04:03.519,0:04:07.519
so i'm gonna drink a lot tonight

0:04:07.840,0:04:12.000
i started laughing and then it was like

0:04:10.319,0:04:14.720
crickets you know

0:04:12.000,0:04:15.439
but um yeah yeah actually you know it

0:04:14.720,0:04:18.799
was very

0:04:15.439,0:04:20.959
very hard to to come to this point

0:04:18.799,0:04:22.560
i think you could imagine like when

0:04:20.959,0:04:24.400
you're spinning off

0:04:22.560,0:04:25.919
from a huge company and there are so

0:04:24.400,0:04:28.080
many parties interested

0:04:25.919,0:04:30.560
so we we we actually started that in

0:04:28.080,0:04:34.320
march as far as i remember

0:04:30.560,0:04:34.800
and it that the estimations were that

0:04:34.320,0:04:37.280
you know

0:04:34.800,0:04:39.120
two months and we are a separate company

0:04:37.280,0:04:41.840
so right now it's november and we're

0:04:39.120,0:04:42.479
just becoming a separate company it's

0:04:41.840,0:04:45.759
wow

0:04:42.479,0:04:48.240
i'm really like

0:04:45.759,0:04:48.800
impressed by what other people are doing

0:04:48.240,0:04:50.720
because

0:04:48.800,0:04:52.080
me as a cto i'm not that much involved

0:04:50.720,0:04:54.240
into all the stocks i'm basically

0:04:52.080,0:04:56.080
browsing the email and saying okay so

0:04:54.240,0:04:59.840
that's another version of agreement

0:04:56.080,0:05:01.759
number 176 so i have just have to read

0:04:59.840,0:05:03.600
this and

0:05:01.759,0:05:05.440
just comment and i know there are some

0:05:03.600,0:05:09.280
people that are negotiating this

0:05:05.440,0:05:12.080
right this is crazy like you know i i'm

0:05:09.280,0:05:12.960
bureaucracy is something that could

0:05:12.080,0:05:15.520
easily kill me

0:05:12.960,0:05:16.320
like right i'm not very good at handling

0:05:15.520,0:05:18.560
this

0:05:16.320,0:05:19.919
right by the way you kind of just move

0:05:18.560,0:05:23.120
to the side a little bit

0:05:19.919,0:05:25.680
if you kind of stay sorry it's okay

0:05:23.120,0:05:27.600
it's like it's like usually when i'm

0:05:25.680,0:05:28.080
sitting i'm slowly transitioning from

0:05:27.600,0:05:30.320
this

0:05:28.080,0:05:31.600
like at the beginning of the day yeah

0:05:30.320,0:05:34.880
something like

0:05:31.600,0:05:36.880
this yeah exactly

0:05:34.880,0:05:38.880
as long as i know where you are then we

0:05:36.880,0:05:39.919
can we could center the video however

0:05:38.880,0:05:42.960
you're comfortable

0:05:39.919,0:05:44.240
yeah sorry it's just you know i i do

0:05:42.960,0:05:46.639
this unconsciously

0:05:44.240,0:05:48.479
no no no it's just it actually everybody

0:05:46.639,0:05:51.440
does it like it it uh

0:05:48.479,0:05:52.080
so i i started to notice it more but um

0:05:51.440,0:05:55.440
but yeah

0:05:52.080,0:05:56.880
so the um i was interested in the um

0:05:55.440,0:05:58.960
breaking off you storefront as a

0:05:56.880,0:06:01.840
separate company from devonta

0:05:58.960,0:06:02.720
um and i was curious to to know more

0:06:01.840,0:06:04.560
about

0:06:02.720,0:06:05.759
um you know well i i know you were

0:06:04.560,0:06:06.080
really excited about that and i was

0:06:05.759,0:06:08.240
curious

0:06:06.080,0:06:09.919
to know more about like why you were

0:06:08.240,0:06:12.000
excited i think you had said

0:06:09.919,0:06:13.039
you had kind of teased that there was a

0:06:12.000,0:06:14.960
big announcement

0:06:13.039,0:06:16.639
coming towards the end of the year or

0:06:14.960,0:06:18.639
something like that which i have

0:06:16.639,0:06:20.720
i have some suspicions but i'm not gonna

0:06:18.639,0:06:22.000
try to get you to spill the beans or

0:06:20.720,0:06:24.479
anything like that

0:06:22.000,0:06:25.320
but yeah i think i think you have good

0:06:24.479,0:06:28.960
suspicions

0:06:25.320,0:06:31.039
[Laughter]

0:06:28.960,0:06:32.800
i mean it's it's pretty obvious but we

0:06:31.039,0:06:33.280
are still like waiting until everything

0:06:32.800,0:06:36.319
is set

0:06:33.280,0:06:38.479
up and and and we can just announce this

0:06:36.319,0:06:40.000
uh because like our salespeople are

0:06:38.479,0:06:42.080
saying deal is never done

0:06:40.000,0:06:44.080
until it's signed until the fat lady

0:06:42.080,0:06:46.880
sings yeah until it's signed yep

0:06:44.080,0:06:49.440
yeah uh yes so we are waiting with that

0:06:46.880,0:06:50.720
but we are becoming a separate company i

0:06:49.440,0:06:52.720
think i think next week

0:06:50.720,0:06:54.319
or maybe in two weeks from now like

0:06:52.720,0:06:56.240
officially but we're operating maybe

0:06:54.319,0:07:01.039
eight months from now

0:06:56.240,0:07:01.039
no no it can happen that's not late

0:07:01.520,0:07:05.680
we are too tired but we are also

0:07:03.680,0:07:06.720
operating as a separate company i think

0:07:05.680,0:07:09.520
since may

0:07:06.720,0:07:11.120
so it's like you know we are still

0:07:09.520,0:07:14.160
missing some things on paper

0:07:11.120,0:07:16.240
and they are blockers for some specific

0:07:14.160,0:07:19.440
activities like partnerships

0:07:16.240,0:07:21.360
etc because like one of the biggest

0:07:19.440,0:07:22.960
issues we had with partnerships is

0:07:21.360,0:07:24.319
basically you know when you're a part of

0:07:22.960,0:07:25.919
a company

0:07:24.319,0:07:27.599
and you're building a great product but

0:07:25.919,0:07:30.560
you're still part of a company when

0:07:27.599,0:07:33.120
everyone else are using this product

0:07:30.560,0:07:35.199
they're not that i mean some are okay

0:07:33.120,0:07:36.479
but not everyone are that much okay with

0:07:35.199,0:07:38.479
strengthening this product

0:07:36.479,0:07:39.759
or maybe paying something for the

0:07:38.479,0:07:41.759
partnership or

0:07:39.759,0:07:44.000
basically doing any activities because

0:07:41.759,0:07:45.120
yeah you're becoming more visible in

0:07:44.000,0:07:46.400
this product space

0:07:45.120,0:07:48.879
but you're also strengthening your

0:07:46.400,0:07:50.240
competition because the product is owned

0:07:48.879,0:07:53.360
by your competition

0:07:50.240,0:07:54.400
right right right right well it's

0:07:53.360,0:07:56.800
interesting because

0:07:54.400,0:07:58.400
like i like this structure and i've

0:07:56.800,0:08:00.080
talked to tom before about like the

0:07:58.400,0:08:00.879
tribe structure at devante and

0:08:00.080,0:08:02.639
everything

0:08:00.879,0:08:04.080
and it's really fascinating you guys

0:08:02.639,0:08:06.000
have incubated

0:08:04.080,0:08:07.360
some interesting projects products

0:08:06.000,0:08:08.160
obviously probably view storefront as

0:08:07.360,0:08:10.960
the

0:08:08.160,0:08:12.639
is the most uh successful of them but

0:08:10.960,0:08:14.800
it's a really cool structure

0:08:12.639,0:08:15.680
but it's like probably can't last

0:08:14.800,0:08:17.420
forever

0:08:15.680,0:08:18.560
like you're saying as the product grows

0:08:17.420,0:08:19.360
[Music]

0:08:18.560,0:08:21.520
yes i mean

0:08:19.360,0:08:23.680
like devante itself is kind of like a

0:08:21.520,0:08:26.160
huge incubator for projects like this

0:08:23.680,0:08:28.560
right now i i think they even have kind

0:08:26.160,0:08:30.479
of like a framework on how to do this

0:08:28.560,0:08:33.120
we also have something called innovation

0:08:30.479,0:08:36.159
lab ivante which is basically

0:08:33.120,0:08:38.959
a separate tribe that is focused only on

0:08:36.159,0:08:39.599
creating a pocs of some products and

0:08:38.959,0:08:42.479
then we

0:08:39.599,0:08:43.039
with this poc we're trying to to

0:08:42.479,0:08:44.959
actually

0:08:43.039,0:08:46.959
you know sell it to some clients to

0:08:44.959,0:08:48.560
validate that yeah and if some

0:08:46.959,0:08:50.240
someone is buying this then we are

0:08:48.560,0:08:51.760
finishing the product and it becomes

0:08:50.240,0:08:54.640
kind of like a

0:08:51.760,0:08:55.360
like in theory it should became become a

0:08:54.640,0:08:57.920
separate

0:08:55.360,0:08:59.440
entity pretty soon right right now we we

0:08:57.920,0:09:00.399
have that we restore front and open

0:08:59.440,0:09:01.760
loyalty so

0:09:00.399,0:09:03.279
open loyalty is actually the first

0:09:01.760,0:09:05.519
product from devante like the first

0:09:03.279,0:09:07.920
successful one i i'm not sure

0:09:05.519,0:09:08.640
how many of them they made because i was

0:09:07.920,0:09:10.720
even one

0:09:08.640,0:09:12.399
once when i was working in devante for i

0:09:10.720,0:09:16.800
think one and a half year

0:09:12.399,0:09:18.399
uh we were uh in the sap office

0:09:16.800,0:09:20.160
because we were also doing spartacus it

0:09:18.399,0:09:23.440
was the very early uh

0:09:20.160,0:09:25.920
stage of discussions is that what is

0:09:23.440,0:09:28.480
spartacus is that the uh

0:09:25.920,0:09:30.000
headless headless headless frontend for

0:09:28.480,0:09:33.519
uh for sap

0:09:30.000,0:09:35.200
oh right okay right so that basically

0:09:33.519,0:09:36.720
sap came to us because of this

0:09:35.200,0:09:39.920
storefront and they asked us

0:09:36.720,0:09:43.440
if we wanted to create a storefront for

0:09:39.920,0:09:47.040
them and this one is based on angular

0:09:43.440,0:09:50.160
and i think there are like 20 or even 30

0:09:47.040,0:09:53.200
people involved into this

0:09:50.160,0:09:53.760
nice so this is this is a pretty huge

0:09:53.200,0:09:55.920
project

0:09:53.760,0:09:57.839
and when we were when we were presenting

0:09:55.920,0:09:59.839
this and when when tom was making a

0:09:57.839,0:10:01.519
presentation about ivanta

0:09:59.839,0:10:03.440
i remember that he was showing the

0:10:01.519,0:10:06.640
products and it was

0:10:03.440,0:10:09.040
the first time i saw two of them

0:10:06.640,0:10:10.480
so it's really it's even hard to control

0:10:09.040,0:10:12.320
what's happening in devante

0:10:10.480,0:10:13.600
with products they they're really crazy

0:10:12.320,0:10:15.040
about this oh it was the first time

0:10:13.600,0:10:16.480
you've seen two of the products because

0:10:15.040,0:10:19.120
there's just so many products

0:10:16.480,0:10:21.360
that are coming out yes yes yes yes and

0:10:19.120,0:10:23.519
even even now it happens even now

0:10:21.360,0:10:25.839
yeah it's really cool because i mean

0:10:23.519,0:10:26.880
every agency wants to try to create a

0:10:25.839,0:10:30.320
product

0:10:26.880,0:10:32.800
um uh but and everybody tries

0:10:30.320,0:10:34.079
at some point but it's very difficult

0:10:32.800,0:10:36.079
for many different reasons

0:10:34.079,0:10:37.600
and uh devante has done an incredible

0:10:36.079,0:10:39.040
job of that it's really

0:10:37.600,0:10:41.760
impressive and it's been really cool to

0:10:39.040,0:10:45.040
see the progression of you storefront

0:10:41.760,0:10:47.760
like um it's it's such a cool product

0:10:45.040,0:10:50.160
and just i can i can like feel like your

0:10:47.760,0:10:52.320
passion for it the team's passion

0:10:50.160,0:10:53.440
uh you've really built this like vibrant

0:10:52.320,0:10:55.440
community

0:10:53.440,0:10:57.440
um and so it's it's just been cool to

0:10:55.440,0:10:59.279
see your progress with that

0:10:57.440,0:11:01.279
yeah yeah thank you thank you very much

0:10:59.279,0:11:02.320
i like i mean it's it's super exciting

0:11:01.279,0:11:04.320
from my side

0:11:02.320,0:11:06.240
i never thought i would no i would

0:11:04.320,0:11:09.279
witness something like this

0:11:06.240,0:11:11.200
i i think one of the key reasons why we

0:11:09.279,0:11:12.720
have succeeded in in the community space

0:11:11.200,0:11:14.160
i think is the fact that we haven't got

0:11:12.720,0:11:16.720
any business plan for that

0:11:14.160,0:11:18.079
for like two years you haven't gotten me

0:11:16.720,0:11:21.519
what any business what

0:11:18.079,0:11:21.519
business plan business plan oh

0:11:22.160,0:11:25.600
you know we were just creating this

0:11:23.680,0:11:26.720
product it was good for devante because

0:11:25.600,0:11:29.760
it was marketing

0:11:26.720,0:11:32.000
it was good for devante because they

0:11:29.760,0:11:33.120
they were creating projects based on

0:11:32.000,0:11:36.480
this storefront

0:11:33.120,0:11:38.800
and that's it there was no like um

0:11:36.480,0:11:40.959
you know 10 years plan on right where

0:11:38.800,0:11:42.880
where you want to be in five years in 10

0:11:40.959,0:11:44.480
years nothing like this we were just

0:11:42.880,0:11:46.880
having fun

0:11:44.480,0:11:47.600
living life day by day but after some

0:11:46.880,0:11:50.639
time after

0:11:47.600,0:11:52.240
we saw you know how successful it became

0:11:50.639,0:11:54.079
we had some internal talks about

0:11:52.240,0:11:57.279
spinning this off uh

0:11:54.079,0:11:59.519
and this year this happened

0:11:57.279,0:12:01.279
and you know from there this is a

0:11:59.519,0:12:03.279
completely different journey and

0:12:01.279,0:12:05.040
it's it's like three or four months

0:12:03.279,0:12:06.800
right now while we are operating as a

0:12:05.040,0:12:09.920
separate company and while

0:12:06.800,0:12:11.440
i'm i'm a cto of this front and it's

0:12:09.920,0:12:13.200
it's super crazy it's

0:12:11.440,0:12:15.680
it's super crazy to do this without this

0:12:13.200,0:12:19.200
parachute because i always had piotr

0:12:15.680,0:12:22.320
who is uh cto of of divanta

0:12:19.200,0:12:25.279
is my mentor and you know

0:12:22.320,0:12:26.800
there was all it if if if i was failing

0:12:25.279,0:12:27.440
with something there was always just to

0:12:26.800,0:12:29.600
ask if i

0:12:27.440,0:12:32.000
if i had any problems there was always

0:12:29.600,0:12:35.200
beats right now there's an opiate and

0:12:32.000,0:12:35.600
figuring all that out by yourself like

0:12:35.200,0:12:37.760
you know

0:12:35.600,0:12:39.760
uh how to hire proper people how to

0:12:37.760,0:12:41.360
delegate them to the right task how to

0:12:39.760,0:12:42.480
keep them motivated how to keep them

0:12:41.360,0:12:45.839
excited

0:12:42.480,0:12:48.720
this is super super interesting i mean

0:12:45.839,0:12:50.000
it's super hard but it's also one of the

0:12:48.720,0:12:53.120
best things that

0:12:50.000,0:12:55.440
that would happen to i think anyone

0:12:53.120,0:12:56.560
who wants to build something when when

0:12:55.440,0:12:58.720
you can actually

0:12:56.560,0:12:59.760
influence you know the people's lives

0:12:58.720,0:13:02.560
with with

0:12:59.760,0:13:03.680
your decisions yeah and at the same time

0:13:02.560,0:13:05.519
build something really

0:13:03.680,0:13:07.200
really really cool so this is what i'm

0:13:05.519,0:13:08.639
trying to do i'm i'm trying to keep

0:13:07.200,0:13:11.519
everyone excited

0:13:08.639,0:13:12.880
i'm trying to you know to find tasks for

0:13:11.519,0:13:16.160
the right people

0:13:12.880,0:13:18.800
uh that are like

0:13:16.160,0:13:19.680
exciting for them so for example even

0:13:18.800,0:13:22.480
like even

0:13:19.680,0:13:24.399
a small ui changes in a complicated

0:13:22.480,0:13:26.720
products are exciting to junior

0:13:24.399,0:13:28.240
developers so i can i can do this

0:13:26.720,0:13:30.560
i can find something more challenging

0:13:28.240,0:13:32.959
for others like

0:13:30.560,0:13:35.440
it's kind of like playing the scenes and

0:13:32.959,0:13:38.639
i really like the scenes

0:13:35.440,0:13:42.079
nice how old are you by the way

0:13:38.639,0:13:42.079
uh i'm 25 so

0:13:42.399,0:13:46.839
yeah you're a youngster man you're

0:13:44.639,0:13:49.600
kicking butt dude that's that's awesome

0:13:46.839,0:13:52.399
man yeah i had a lot of luck i had very

0:13:49.600,0:13:55.120
good very good mentors so

0:13:52.399,0:13:55.600
i i i'm not sure myself lucky how much

0:13:55.120,0:13:58.240
uh

0:13:55.600,0:13:59.600
coding are you doing like per like pers

0:13:58.240,0:14:01.199
rough percentage i know you're doing a

0:13:59.600,0:14:03.040
lot more management as a c2 and stuff

0:14:01.199,0:14:07.199
like that are you still doing

0:14:03.040,0:14:10.160
50 coding 25 00 like

0:14:07.199,0:14:12.160
so at the beginning when i was like

0:14:10.160,0:14:14.079
transitioning to being a cto

0:14:12.160,0:14:15.680
i immediately stopped coding because

0:14:14.079,0:14:16.480
there were so many things on my head

0:14:15.680,0:14:18.320
that i just

0:14:16.480,0:14:20.320
i just had to organize all of that i

0:14:18.320,0:14:20.959
just you know had to delegate things

0:14:20.320,0:14:24.240
because

0:14:20.959,0:14:24.480
apparently you know you're waking waking

0:14:24.240,0:14:27.199
up

0:14:24.480,0:14:28.160
in reality when every where everything

0:14:27.199,0:14:29.760
depends on you

0:14:28.160,0:14:31.920
and you're the decision maker in every

0:14:29.760,0:14:34.959
space so the first thing i had to do was

0:14:31.920,0:14:37.360
was delegating things and

0:14:34.959,0:14:38.160
once i did that it's i'm still in a

0:14:37.360,0:14:40.240
process but

0:14:38.160,0:14:41.360
right now i have some time i have some

0:14:40.240,0:14:43.440
free slots at least

0:14:41.360,0:14:46.320
i don't i don't always have calls from

0:14:43.440,0:14:48.560
you know 8 8 a.m to 4 p.m

0:14:46.320,0:14:51.120
so right now when i have like roughly

0:14:48.560,0:14:51.600
four hours during the day without calls

0:14:51.120,0:14:54.720
or

0:14:51.600,0:14:55.839
or any other meetings i think i spending

0:14:54.720,0:14:58.160
maybe one hour

0:14:55.839,0:14:59.839
a day on coding but i'm not coding

0:14:58.160,0:15:00.880
actively i mean i'm not taking any

0:14:59.839,0:15:03.199
issues

0:15:00.880,0:15:04.959
uh what i am doing is i'm just writing a

0:15:03.199,0:15:07.279
pocs

0:15:04.959,0:15:09.199
more creative type coding like high

0:15:07.279,0:15:11.680
level type stuff

0:15:09.199,0:15:12.240
yes yes exactly so whenever we need some

0:15:11.680,0:15:14.959
feature

0:15:12.240,0:15:16.480
and you know i'm not sure how i should

0:15:14.959,0:15:19.360
even describe that in an issue

0:15:16.480,0:15:21.120
because i don't have a broad enough view

0:15:19.360,0:15:22.560
of this particular feature how it should

0:15:21.120,0:15:24.480
look like how

0:15:22.560,0:15:26.160
it would affect the public apis how it

0:15:24.480,0:15:27.440
would affect the private apis for

0:15:26.160,0:15:30.000
integrators

0:15:27.440,0:15:31.440
how will perform better maybe you know

0:15:30.000,0:15:33.040
i'm overlooking something so then i'm

0:15:31.440,0:15:35.600
prototyping this

0:15:33.040,0:15:37.839
very very small example and based on

0:15:35.600,0:15:40.160
this prototype i'm just sending it to

0:15:37.839,0:15:43.360
some of the developers and and

0:15:40.160,0:15:46.720
then writing an issue based on that yeah

0:15:43.360,0:15:47.680
i feel like um i feel like you know when

0:15:46.720,0:15:50.560
i think about

0:15:47.680,0:15:51.680
products that have like this trajectory

0:15:50.560,0:15:54.959
that yours has

0:15:51.680,0:15:55.680
of this like passionate um community and

0:15:54.959,0:15:58.240
really cool

0:15:55.680,0:15:59.839
product that's iterating fast like i

0:15:58.240,0:16:01.759
think about maybe like laravel

0:15:59.839,0:16:03.199
and taylor rottweiler i think about view

0:16:01.759,0:16:07.199
itself with like

0:16:03.199,0:16:09.839
uh evan evan yu i feel like

0:16:07.199,0:16:11.680
they have to keep coding like i i assume

0:16:09.839,0:16:13.519
evan you codes i could be totally wrong

0:16:11.680,0:16:17.279
about that but i assume he does

0:16:13.519,0:16:18.240
i feel like the the like the founder led

0:16:17.279,0:16:19.600
like i don't know if you consider

0:16:18.240,0:16:22.959
yourself a founder or not

0:16:19.600,0:16:24.639
of you storefront like has to stay

0:16:22.959,0:16:26.399
in that like of course you have more

0:16:24.639,0:16:28.639
management and stuff to deal with

0:16:26.399,0:16:30.160
but like you kind of have to stay in the

0:16:28.639,0:16:33.680
code or else if you get

0:16:30.160,0:16:35.759
too far from it then there's all this

0:16:33.680,0:16:38.000
bureaucracy and all this stuff and then

0:16:35.759,0:16:40.000
it just kind of loses like

0:16:38.000,0:16:41.600
its heart a little bit like adam waving

0:16:40.000,0:16:43.519
with tailwind or just you know some of

0:16:41.600,0:16:45.600
these products that are really cool

0:16:43.519,0:16:46.880
you know yeah yeah i think you're

0:16:45.600,0:16:49.360
totally right

0:16:46.880,0:16:50.959
and as far as i know like all the people

0:16:49.360,0:16:52.639
that you have mentioned they are coding

0:16:50.959,0:16:55.600
very extensively

0:16:52.639,0:16:57.440
but it's it's it's kind of different

0:16:55.600,0:16:58.800
when

0:16:57.440,0:17:00.720
you have to organize everything by

0:16:58.800,0:17:01.600
yourself as well because then there's no

0:17:00.720,0:17:05.120
one else to do this

0:17:01.600,0:17:07.120
so you don't have so many possibilities

0:17:05.120,0:17:08.319
uh on your plate to to just jump

0:17:07.120,0:17:10.640
straight and code

0:17:08.319,0:17:11.360
yeah uh but i totally agree that you

0:17:10.640,0:17:14.160
have to stay

0:17:11.360,0:17:16.160
close to the technology that you're

0:17:14.160,0:17:19.520
using because otherwise

0:17:16.160,0:17:21.439
you're like in my in my case

0:17:19.520,0:17:23.360
like i'm making tons of architectural

0:17:21.439,0:17:25.199
decisions every day like you know how to

0:17:23.360,0:17:26.959
structure the public api

0:17:25.199,0:17:28.480
how to make all these dots connecting

0:17:26.959,0:17:30.160
you always have to like

0:17:28.480,0:17:32.000
there there's always has to be someone

0:17:30.160,0:17:34.160
who has this big picture in his head

0:17:32.000,0:17:35.600
yeah like okay like how the software

0:17:34.160,0:17:36.720
should look like what principles we're

0:17:35.600,0:17:39.120
trying to follow

0:17:36.720,0:17:40.480
and and and maybe how all these future

0:17:39.120,0:17:41.360
thoughts will connect to what we have

0:17:40.480,0:17:43.760
right now

0:17:41.360,0:17:45.280
and as long as you're coding actively

0:17:43.760,0:17:48.240
even this pocs

0:17:45.280,0:17:50.320
and you're training you know your brain

0:17:48.240,0:17:52.960
to still think as a programmer

0:17:50.320,0:17:54.000
i think you can do this job and you can

0:17:52.960,0:17:56.240
do

0:17:54.000,0:17:57.520
the job the way you you should do this

0:17:56.240,0:18:01.120
job and

0:17:57.520,0:18:05.280
if you will stop coding

0:18:01.120,0:18:07.039
then you like very slowly

0:18:05.280,0:18:08.400
will start thinking maybe in a different

0:18:07.039,0:18:11.520
way because i believe like

0:18:08.400,0:18:12.840
you know uh coding is kind of like like

0:18:11.520,0:18:16.160
lifting weights

0:18:12.840,0:18:16.640
yes you you can be you can be good at

0:18:16.160,0:18:18.799
this

0:18:16.640,0:18:20.880
and you can when you stop lifting

0:18:18.799,0:18:22.720
weights you still you know you still

0:18:20.880,0:18:24.880
know how to do all these exercise

0:18:22.720,0:18:28.000
exercises with a perfect technique

0:18:24.880,0:18:30.400
you still have all this know-how about

0:18:28.000,0:18:31.840
you know nutrition and stuff like this

0:18:30.400,0:18:34.160
but you're not trained at all

0:18:31.840,0:18:35.679
and if you want to lift heavy weights

0:18:34.160,0:18:38.559
again it takes time

0:18:35.679,0:18:39.360
right right and i was at that i was at

0:18:38.559,0:18:41.679
the same point

0:18:39.360,0:18:43.200
uh like i wasn't coding for maybe three

0:18:41.679,0:18:46.320
months or something like this

0:18:43.200,0:18:48.080
and then i came back to coding and i was

0:18:46.320,0:18:48.559
like a junior developer again even

0:18:48.080,0:18:51.280
though

0:18:48.559,0:18:54.000
in my mind i knew all this even though

0:18:51.280,0:18:56.000
you built a dead thing

0:18:54.000,0:18:57.280
yeah i knew everything i was making so

0:18:56.000,0:19:00.480
many mistakes i was

0:18:57.280,0:19:02.160
you know thinking so long about every

0:19:00.480,0:19:03.760
line of code i have to write

0:19:02.160,0:19:06.080
and it wasn't like this when i when i

0:19:03.760,0:19:09.120
was an active developer

0:19:06.080,0:19:11.120
and right right now when i was doing

0:19:09.120,0:19:12.799
some of this when i did some of those

0:19:11.120,0:19:16.400
pocs when i was coding like

0:19:12.799,0:19:19.919
you know at least one hour a day or

0:19:16.400,0:19:23.600
well i'm trying to at least

0:19:19.919,0:19:25.440
right now i'm much more productive again

0:19:23.600,0:19:27.200
so it's definitely definitely a muscle

0:19:25.440,0:19:30.320
that you have to train also

0:19:27.200,0:19:33.360
i'm arguing with uh my developers a lot

0:19:30.320,0:19:34.960
every day that's important everyone yeah

0:19:33.360,0:19:36.960
yes it's super important it's super

0:19:34.960,0:19:38.480
important because when you're arguing

0:19:36.960,0:19:41.440
with other people

0:19:38.480,0:19:42.799
you're exchanging your views then at

0:19:41.440,0:19:45.600
some point after

0:19:42.799,0:19:47.440
arguing for some certain amount of time

0:19:45.600,0:19:49.840
everyone are on the same page

0:19:47.440,0:19:51.440
yeah the beginning is always arguing

0:19:49.840,0:19:53.760
because everyone has different vision

0:19:51.440,0:19:57.840
but if you if you have a chance to talk

0:19:53.760,0:19:59.120
uh enough then your moral is sharing the

0:19:57.840,0:20:01.919
same vision or at least

0:19:59.120,0:20:03.039
know what is the vision of of of the of

0:20:01.919,0:20:04.640
the other person

0:20:03.039,0:20:07.280
so you can kind of like you know apply

0:20:04.640,0:20:09.440
this to your code as well

0:20:07.280,0:20:11.840
i like that i like i like that word

0:20:09.440,0:20:13.679
arguing because it's like

0:20:11.840,0:20:15.840
it's not that you're telling them what

0:20:13.679,0:20:17.679
to do obviously like you don't want to

0:20:15.840,0:20:18.559
argue in the sense arguing can be seen

0:20:17.679,0:20:20.880
as being negative

0:20:18.559,0:20:22.640
but it's like even though you're the the

0:20:20.880,0:20:25.200
boss the cto

0:20:22.640,0:20:26.720
you're still like trying like like if

0:20:25.200,0:20:28.480
they have an argument

0:20:26.720,0:20:29.919
to disagree with you and you're farther

0:20:28.480,0:20:31.840
away from the code

0:20:29.919,0:20:34.159
um you still have to try to convince

0:20:31.840,0:20:36.320
them and persuade them um

0:20:34.159,0:20:37.600
kind of like you're on equal ground you

0:20:36.320,0:20:39.520
know

0:20:37.600,0:20:41.280
yes yes and this is a super important

0:20:39.520,0:20:44.960
lesson that i've got from piotr

0:20:41.280,0:20:47.760
again uh we were arguing a lot

0:20:44.960,0:20:48.559
during this development so many times i

0:20:47.760,0:20:51.280
was i was

0:20:48.559,0:20:54.240
pretty damn sure that okay that was too

0:20:51.280,0:20:56.640
much i'm gonna be laid off

0:20:54.240,0:20:58.720
seriously it it happened so many times

0:20:56.640,0:21:00.159
but spiritually like he also this is a

0:20:58.720,0:21:03.039
polish thing

0:21:00.159,0:21:05.600
is this a polish thing that you just you

0:21:03.039,0:21:05.600
go at it

0:21:05.760,0:21:09.760
i don't think so i don't i know many

0:21:07.760,0:21:13.039
people doing this yeah

0:21:09.760,0:21:15.600
it's just a like developer thing

0:21:13.039,0:21:16.799
yeah it could be it could be you know

0:21:15.600,0:21:19.840
and we were arguing

0:21:16.799,0:21:22.240
seriously like these were very very

0:21:19.840,0:21:24.320
serious arguments in many cases

0:21:22.240,0:21:25.760
uh not only about technical stuff but

0:21:24.320,0:21:28.240
also you know

0:21:25.760,0:21:30.080
because every time there's some kind of

0:21:28.240,0:21:31.760
an issue this issue always has layers

0:21:30.080,0:21:34.000
and this layer is usually not only in

0:21:31.760,0:21:34.720
the code uh the issue is usually in the

0:21:34.000,0:21:37.280
management

0:21:34.720,0:21:39.200
communication yeah so we're arguing

0:21:37.280,0:21:41.039
closer about this and you know like

0:21:39.200,0:21:42.880
this is this this is far beyond my

0:21:41.039,0:21:43.520
competencies and far beyond what i was

0:21:42.880,0:21:47.120
hired

0:21:43.520,0:21:49.520
for in theory yeah arguing about

0:21:47.120,0:21:51.280
this stuff yeah you could like in in

0:21:49.520,0:21:52.559
many situations you could expect being

0:21:51.280,0:21:55.760
played off

0:21:52.559,0:21:57.679
but because he didn't and

0:21:55.760,0:22:00.000
i i had this freedom of you know

0:21:57.679,0:22:00.880
expressing my ideas of expressing my

0:22:00.000,0:22:03.760
fears and

0:22:00.880,0:22:04.480
basically being open about everything i

0:22:03.760,0:22:07.520
i thought

0:22:04.480,0:22:09.520
makes sense uh

0:22:07.520,0:22:11.039
because of that we managed to build so

0:22:09.520,0:22:12.640
good product and because of that i

0:22:11.039,0:22:14.400
managed to think the way i'm thinking

0:22:12.640,0:22:16.400
right now so what i'm trying to do

0:22:14.400,0:22:18.400
right now with my developers is

0:22:16.400,0:22:20.400
basically the same thing so

0:22:18.400,0:22:21.520
i know that when someone new is coming

0:22:20.400,0:22:24.720
to the project

0:22:21.520,0:22:26.159
they don't have this you know they don't

0:22:24.720,0:22:27.679
know much about this so they are

0:22:26.159,0:22:28.799
focusing on small things they don't have

0:22:27.679,0:22:31.919
this big picture and

0:22:28.799,0:22:33.120
because of this they also don't uh do

0:22:31.919,0:22:35.120
things

0:22:33.120,0:22:37.200
as good as i could because i'm in this

0:22:35.120,0:22:39.280
project for like

0:22:37.200,0:22:40.960
most of my professional career and i i

0:22:39.280,0:22:43.280
was thinking about all these patterns

0:22:40.960,0:22:47.120
and things that that we're doing

0:22:43.280,0:22:50.159
for a few years yeah but

0:22:47.120,0:22:52.400
it shouldn't be like this

0:22:50.159,0:22:53.840
it shouldn't be that i am just telling

0:22:52.400,0:22:55.280
everyone what they should do and they

0:22:53.840,0:22:59.600
are doing this

0:22:55.280,0:23:01.919
and then i'm think okay so

0:22:59.600,0:23:03.919
this is not the best approach to this to

0:23:01.919,0:23:04.960
this problem so then we have to rewrite

0:23:03.919,0:23:06.720
this and

0:23:04.960,0:23:08.080
at some point you could end up telling

0:23:06.720,0:23:09.440
people okay do this

0:23:08.080,0:23:11.520
then they are doing this and then you

0:23:09.440,0:23:14.159
see okay it's not good okay so do this

0:23:11.520,0:23:15.120
okay it's not good so do this so they're

0:23:14.159,0:23:19.600
they're kind of like

0:23:15.120,0:23:19.600
becoming just a machines that are coding

0:23:20.320,0:23:24.960
yeah robots robots that are coding and

0:23:22.880,0:23:26.159
what i what i want them to to do is

0:23:24.960,0:23:28.240
basically to learn

0:23:26.159,0:23:30.159
on all of this to argue with me if they

0:23:28.240,0:23:31.840
think that something doesn't make sense

0:23:30.159,0:23:33.440
because in many cases it doesn't make

0:23:31.840,0:23:35.200
sense yeah and this

0:23:33.440,0:23:37.840
this is this is what i always try you

0:23:35.200,0:23:37.840
know to

0:23:39.200,0:23:42.240
this is what i always try to tell people

0:23:41.120,0:23:45.279
is is that

0:23:42.240,0:23:48.320
i'm not some kind of you know of

0:23:45.279,0:23:50.159
uh i'm missing the word

0:23:48.320,0:23:52.480
like you're not perfect you don't have

0:23:50.159,0:23:54.480
all the info like you're not omni omni

0:23:52.480,0:23:56.240
okay that wasn't this word but yeah yeah

0:23:54.480,0:23:57.200
i'm not perfect i don't always have the

0:23:56.240,0:23:59.840
best answer

0:23:57.200,0:24:01.360
uh i just have my ideas but they also

0:23:59.840,0:24:03.200
have to be validated

0:24:01.360,0:24:04.480
and i'm paying you for validating my

0:24:03.200,0:24:06.640
ideas

0:24:04.480,0:24:08.000
and once people get that then everything

0:24:06.640,0:24:08.960
is fine because they know that they

0:24:08.000,0:24:11.039
could argue

0:24:08.960,0:24:12.320
they could express their ideas and there

0:24:11.039,0:24:15.360
won't be any and

0:24:12.320,0:24:16.799
anybody emotions yeah it sounds like you

0:24:15.360,0:24:20.159
have a really good

0:24:16.799,0:24:22.799
uh culture of being able to

0:24:20.159,0:24:23.520
figure things out argue things out and

0:24:22.799,0:24:25.600
then

0:24:23.520,0:24:27.120
you know some people will argue without

0:24:25.600,0:24:29.520
really being productive

0:24:27.120,0:24:31.200
you know i've been on teams before where

0:24:29.520,0:24:32.720
you're tired of talking talking talking

0:24:31.200,0:24:34.880
talking talking and then you never

0:24:32.720,0:24:35.840
ship nothing ever gets shipped you have

0:24:34.880,0:24:38.400
to have

0:24:35.840,0:24:38.960
you have to have both of those right

0:24:38.400,0:24:43.279
yeah yeah

0:24:38.960,0:24:43.279
i'm i'm trying to be very uh

0:24:44.000,0:24:48.000
i'm trying to critique myself for all

0:24:46.080,0:24:49.679
the things all the bad things i'm doing

0:24:48.000,0:24:51.279
and i'm constantly thinking about all

0:24:49.679,0:24:54.320
these about things i'm doing

0:24:51.279,0:24:57.120
uh i i think it's also a good

0:24:54.320,0:24:58.559
good activity to do this to not only

0:24:57.120,0:25:00.240
focus you know on your ego

0:24:58.559,0:25:02.240
and on getting things done but also on

0:25:00.240,0:25:02.559
your failures and what you have done

0:25:02.240,0:25:05.440
wrong

0:25:02.559,0:25:06.559
and also to admit that in front of

0:25:05.440,0:25:09.919
others

0:25:06.559,0:25:11.840
it helps me a lot actually uh

0:25:09.919,0:25:14.240
because then if you don't do this at

0:25:11.840,0:25:17.120
some point you will face spectacularly

0:25:14.240,0:25:18.240
and you won't be used to used to this

0:25:17.120,0:25:21.039
yeah

0:25:18.240,0:25:22.559
at least this is my feeling like when i

0:25:21.039,0:25:24.320
have some influence and

0:25:22.559,0:25:26.559
when i can actually you know assign

0:25:24.320,0:25:28.880
tasks so i'm the person who is assigning

0:25:26.559,0:25:32.320
tasks i'm the decision maker

0:25:28.880,0:25:34.400
uh i kind of like to get people used to

0:25:32.320,0:25:36.080
the fact that i'm making mistakes

0:25:34.400,0:25:38.159
because it's just better for me as well

0:25:36.080,0:25:40.880
right only for them right it's a good

0:25:38.159,0:25:42.640
culture to to it's okay to make mistakes

0:25:40.880,0:25:43.520
everybody makes mistakes the boss makes

0:25:42.640,0:25:45.360
mistakes

0:25:43.520,0:25:46.640
we're gonna keep experimenting we're

0:25:45.360,0:25:49.679
gonna keep building stuff

0:25:46.640,0:25:50.799
and trying things out yep i think you

0:25:49.679,0:25:54.080
know it's all about

0:25:50.799,0:25:56.080
being empathetic enough to other people

0:25:54.080,0:25:57.120
because like ultimately when i'm hiring

0:25:56.080,0:25:59.200
people

0:25:57.120,0:26:00.720
i believe that i am hiring people that

0:25:59.200,0:26:02.240
are excited about they are doing that

0:26:00.720,0:26:02.960
they are passionate about what they are

0:26:02.240,0:26:06.000
doing

0:26:02.960,0:26:09.039
that they want to do their job the best

0:26:06.000,0:26:12.480
uh as they can

0:26:09.039,0:26:14.960
so my job is to keep them motivated

0:26:12.480,0:26:16.320
yeah and just just this yeah and it

0:26:14.960,0:26:18.960
works so far and i'm really

0:26:16.320,0:26:19.600
like this is one of the greatest things

0:26:18.960,0:26:21.840
ever that

0:26:19.600,0:26:24.159
this approach works because i really

0:26:21.840,0:26:27.279
wanted wanted to work in a company when

0:26:24.159,0:26:31.279
where you know there's no

0:26:27.279,0:26:32.880
a chain of order there there's no uh

0:26:31.279,0:26:35.520
there maybe not that there are no

0:26:32.880,0:26:37.440
deadlines but

0:26:35.520,0:26:39.279
developers are more important than the

0:26:37.440,0:26:40.880
delays and in development

0:26:39.279,0:26:42.799
there is kind of like this culture but

0:26:40.880,0:26:43.679
of course there are also clients so it's

0:26:42.799,0:26:45.360
not that easy

0:26:43.679,0:26:47.039
but when you're building a product i

0:26:45.360,0:26:49.360
think it's a little bit easier

0:26:47.039,0:26:51.360
because it's just all about planning so

0:26:49.360,0:26:54.240
if i plan things right

0:26:51.360,0:26:55.760
then i have my own free time developers

0:26:54.240,0:26:56.640
have their own free time and everything

0:26:55.760,0:26:59.520
is fine

0:26:56.640,0:27:00.559
so i plan things wrong which happened

0:26:59.520,0:27:05.840
last week

0:27:00.559,0:27:07.440
actually so we yeah we we promised

0:27:05.840,0:27:08.880
oh [ __ ] maybe the clients are listening

0:27:07.440,0:27:10.000
so i won't tell about it but

0:27:08.880,0:27:12.720
okay you don't have to get in the

0:27:10.000,0:27:15.279
details yeah basically we had to do

0:27:12.720,0:27:16.000
we had to do something very quickly

0:27:15.279,0:27:20.000
because

0:27:16.000,0:27:23.919
uh we said that we have this already and

0:27:20.000,0:27:26.399
client ask for a demo and usually

0:27:23.919,0:27:27.039
when we are saying that we have we have

0:27:26.399,0:27:29.120
something

0:27:27.039,0:27:30.720
uh like this it means that we have

0:27:29.120,0:27:32.720
everything figured out and ready

0:27:30.720,0:27:33.760
and at the moment when you will be

0:27:32.720,0:27:37.600
signing the deal

0:27:33.760,0:27:37.600
it's just a week for us to finish this

0:27:37.919,0:27:40.960
and i think everyone are doing this some

0:27:40.240,0:27:44.000
some people

0:27:40.960,0:27:46.240
are more open about this

0:27:44.000,0:27:48.159
some people are less open about this i'm

0:27:46.240,0:27:50.399
pretty open about this because

0:27:48.159,0:27:51.760
usually you know when we're integrating

0:27:50.399,0:27:53.120
some third party service we're doing

0:27:51.760,0:27:55.440
some kind of a poc

0:27:53.120,0:27:56.320
then seeing how much of an effort it is

0:27:55.440,0:27:58.880
and

0:27:56.320,0:28:00.640
waiting with a full integration until we

0:27:58.880,0:28:02.159
have a client for this because otherwise

0:28:00.640,0:28:04.240
we would end up creating

0:28:02.159,0:28:06.080
dozens of integrations that maybe no one

0:28:04.240,0:28:09.039
will use in a year or two

0:28:06.080,0:28:09.600
yeah yeah i think and i think again

0:28:09.039,0:28:13.120
you've been

0:28:09.600,0:28:14.799
super uh productive with the product and

0:28:13.120,0:28:16.880
all the integrations that you have i was

0:28:14.799,0:28:19.520
looking at some of those you've got

0:28:16.880,0:28:20.000
a lot of ecom back-end integrations you

0:28:19.520,0:28:23.600
know

0:28:20.000,0:28:25.120
shopware commerce tools shopify magento

0:28:23.600,0:28:27.679
and then you've got a lot of cms

0:28:25.120,0:28:28.080
integrations i was curious to drill into

0:28:27.679,0:28:30.159
those

0:28:28.080,0:28:32.720
a little bit i know you were saying you

0:28:30.159,0:28:34.880
have a great relationship with shopware

0:28:32.720,0:28:35.840
um and it's funny like i've been

0:28:34.880,0:28:38.399
starting to

0:28:35.840,0:28:39.760
kind of from being so magento focused

0:28:38.399,0:28:42.399
i've been starting to look at

0:28:39.760,0:28:43.039
other platforms in the ecosystem and

0:28:42.399,0:28:45.600
shopware

0:28:43.039,0:28:46.880
feels very much like magento in the

0:28:45.600,0:28:50.559
sense that it's

0:28:46.880,0:28:52.159
open source you know it it it it feels

0:28:50.559,0:28:54.720
like it has a similar vibe

0:28:52.159,0:28:55.840
to like the early days yes definitely i

0:28:54.720,0:28:58.320
have the same feeling

0:28:55.840,0:28:59.440
like you know we are originating from

0:28:58.320,0:29:01.840
this magento space

0:28:59.440,0:29:04.559
i haven't got a chance to know magento

0:29:01.840,0:29:06.559
from the management perspective

0:29:04.559,0:29:08.640
but from the community perspective i

0:29:06.559,0:29:11.679
think it's it's it's super similar

0:29:08.640,0:29:14.159
they have definitely the same vibe yeah

0:29:11.679,0:29:15.679
many people say that shopper is a new

0:29:14.159,0:29:18.559
magento

0:29:15.679,0:29:19.440
yes i think it's there are some reasons

0:29:18.559,0:29:22.559
behind this

0:29:19.440,0:29:24.720
not only uh reasons like that that are

0:29:22.559,0:29:26.000
deeply technical but also the community

0:29:24.720,0:29:28.720
reasons i know some people

0:29:26.000,0:29:29.919
that are maybe not abandoning magento

0:29:28.720,0:29:32.720
because it's not like a

0:29:29.919,0:29:34.559
one one solution choice but i know many

0:29:32.720,0:29:36.960
people from magento space that

0:29:34.559,0:29:39.520
actually right now also a part of

0:29:36.960,0:29:42.240
shopper community

0:29:39.520,0:29:43.279
yeah yeah and there are comparable

0:29:42.240,0:29:45.440
people working in there

0:29:43.279,0:29:46.559
seriously like dominic klein who had his

0:29:45.440,0:29:49.360
presentation on

0:29:46.559,0:29:50.720
uh on reacticon as well so we are in

0:29:49.360,0:29:52.399
contact with doming from the very

0:29:50.720,0:29:55.279
beginning like the whole partnership

0:29:52.399,0:29:57.440
that we're establishing uh was what was

0:29:55.279,0:30:00.720
done with dominic right now he is also a

0:29:57.440,0:30:03.679
technical leader in shop for pwa

0:30:00.720,0:30:05.279
so we we have a very good contact with

0:30:03.679,0:30:08.240
him and because of that we also have a

0:30:05.279,0:30:11.039
lot of contacts with other chopra people

0:30:08.240,0:30:11.520
and i love this seriously like i think

0:30:11.039,0:30:13.200
they

0:30:11.520,0:30:14.799
they're sharing also the same values so

0:30:13.200,0:30:17.679
they want to be motivated

0:30:14.799,0:30:18.559
uh they don't like this you know um

0:30:17.679,0:30:22.880
corporate

0:30:18.559,0:30:24.480
style of managing the company so they're

0:30:22.880,0:30:26.240
also good at admitting their mistakes

0:30:24.480,0:30:29.360
they're also not very

0:30:26.240,0:30:31.360
judgy about them so

0:30:29.360,0:30:33.279
yeah i really really really enjoyed this

0:30:31.360,0:30:34.880
cooperation and i'm i'm pretty sure it's

0:30:33.279,0:30:36.640
gonna be even better in the future right

0:30:34.880,0:30:38.559
now when we are a separate entity

0:30:36.640,0:30:40.960
because we can also invest a little bit

0:30:38.559,0:30:43.600
more into the shopper pwa

0:30:40.960,0:30:44.080
we can promote it differently yeah

0:30:43.600,0:30:45.840
actually

0:30:44.080,0:30:47.200
i wouldn't believe something like this

0:30:45.840,0:30:49.120
uh would happen

0:30:47.200,0:30:51.200
one year ago but it became kind of like

0:30:49.120,0:30:53.039
official official frontend for shopware

0:30:51.200,0:30:54.399
right so it's super cool so the shop

0:30:53.039,0:30:57.360
where pwa

0:30:54.399,0:30:58.480
is basically like an instance of view

0:30:57.360,0:31:02.640
storefront

0:30:58.480,0:31:05.039
is that the idea yeah so like um

0:31:02.640,0:31:07.200
this is a little bit complicated because

0:31:05.039,0:31:09.039
we were starting like initially

0:31:07.200,0:31:10.640
it was meant to be just a view store

0:31:09.039,0:31:12.159
from next which is like this new version

0:31:10.640,0:31:14.799
of this surface

0:31:12.159,0:31:16.559
for shopware uh the same as any other

0:31:14.799,0:31:17.519
integration for any other platform

0:31:16.559,0:31:19.840
because

0:31:17.519,0:31:21.360
our strength is in the fact that all

0:31:19.840,0:31:23.200
these platforms are managed in the same

0:31:21.360,0:31:24.880
way they have the same interfaces

0:31:23.200,0:31:26.720
because of that we could we can have the

0:31:24.880,0:31:28.399
same extensions we can exchange third

0:31:26.720,0:31:29.039
parties within the same code base very

0:31:28.399,0:31:31.120
easily

0:31:29.039,0:31:32.720
because all of them have the same

0:31:31.120,0:31:36.000
interface uh the high level

0:31:32.720,0:31:39.440
try basically don't drive yeah

0:31:36.000,0:31:41.840
yeah yeah and

0:31:39.440,0:31:44.480
so we started doing this and at the same

0:31:41.840,0:31:48.000
time we started shopper pwa

0:31:44.480,0:31:50.399
and it who i would say it's impossible

0:31:48.000,0:31:52.159
to coordinate to projects that have

0:31:50.399,0:31:52.799
slightly different goals because our

0:31:52.159,0:31:54.159
goal

0:31:52.799,0:31:56.159
like when we were figuring out the

0:31:54.159,0:31:58.080
feature it was much harder

0:31:56.159,0:32:00.480
to implement that because we had to

0:31:58.080,0:32:03.600
think you know about okay so

0:32:00.480,0:32:06.000
how would it work let's say with a cms

0:32:03.600,0:32:08.080
so when we were figuring out the pattern

0:32:06.000,0:32:11.120
for integrating cmss and interfaces for

0:32:08.080,0:32:13.200
that we had to think about all the cms's

0:32:11.120,0:32:15.600
and there's hundreds of them there's

0:32:13.200,0:32:16.480
like hundreds of headless cms's i had no

0:32:15.600,0:32:19.679
idea

0:32:16.480,0:32:21.600
okay most of them that's just exactly

0:32:19.679,0:32:25.519
the same job

0:32:21.600,0:32:28.399
right so by the way right right

0:32:25.519,0:32:29.760
like seriously i was i i had numerous

0:32:28.399,0:32:31.760
calls with cmss

0:32:29.760,0:32:33.519
right right now because we're making a

0:32:31.760,0:32:36.640
lot of integrations

0:32:33.519,0:32:38.640
and the great thing is that all of them

0:32:36.640,0:32:41.279
are very major right now

0:32:38.640,0:32:43.600
i mean when when you were using cms's

0:32:41.279,0:32:45.760
headless cmss let's say two years ago

0:32:43.600,0:32:48.480
you were basically allowed to manage

0:32:45.760,0:32:51.519
your content that's it

0:32:48.480,0:32:54.880
and right now this content have evolved

0:32:51.519,0:32:55.279
you're basically from almost any cmss

0:32:54.880,0:32:57.519
you have

0:32:55.279,0:32:58.799
kind of like a visual builder so the

0:32:57.519,0:33:01.039
content uh

0:32:58.799,0:33:02.159
type is basically mapped to a component

0:33:01.039,0:33:04.080
in your application

0:33:02.159,0:33:05.679
then you have full pages where you're

0:33:04.080,0:33:08.799
managing this the

0:33:05.679,0:33:10.399
the these modules uh and this translates

0:33:08.799,0:33:12.080
directly to your components

0:33:10.399,0:33:13.360
so right now with cms you're not not

0:33:12.080,0:33:15.039
only managing the content you're

0:33:13.360,0:33:18.080
managing the whole structure

0:33:15.039,0:33:19.760
of a web page but also

0:33:18.080,0:33:21.519
like in that in that case you could say

0:33:19.760,0:33:24.720
that all of them offer the same thing

0:33:21.519,0:33:26.399
because this is just how cms has evolved

0:33:24.720,0:33:28.799
of course all of them have a lot of

0:33:26.399,0:33:30.559
unique features as well and i think uix

0:33:28.799,0:33:32.480
of the admin panel is the most unique

0:33:30.559,0:33:34.559
feature of any platform

0:33:32.480,0:33:36.480
so i you know i could i could have two

0:33:34.559,0:33:39.360
platforms that that are offering exactly

0:33:36.480,0:33:42.000
the same things but with one platform

0:33:39.360,0:33:43.039
i'm super productive and i can do a poc

0:33:42.000,0:33:45.919
if in two days

0:33:43.039,0:33:46.320
and another platform even though from

0:33:45.919,0:33:47.919
the

0:33:46.320,0:33:50.159
frontend perspective it's exactly the

0:33:47.919,0:33:52.159
same it takes me much longer to do this

0:33:50.159,0:33:53.200
i'm really really a fan for example of

0:33:52.159,0:33:55.519
storyblock

0:33:53.200,0:33:56.320
uh they have i think they they have one

0:33:55.519,0:33:58.799
of the

0:33:56.320,0:34:01.360
or even the best ui in terms of this

0:33:58.799,0:34:03.840
visual building capabilities

0:34:01.360,0:34:05.360
i noticed you used them for your um i

0:34:03.840,0:34:06.240
was playing around a little bit with the

0:34:05.360,0:34:08.159
um

0:34:06.240,0:34:10.480
the used storefront components and i i

0:34:08.159,0:34:14.320
think you use storybook

0:34:10.480,0:34:14.320
within your own documentation

0:34:14.480,0:34:18.399
okay yeah this is a very common

0:34:16.399,0:34:20.399
misconception

0:34:18.399,0:34:21.520
i think they're really regretting

0:34:20.399,0:34:24.000
picking this name

0:34:21.520,0:34:25.359
well there's so many cms's they're going

0:34:24.000,0:34:28.560
to have collisions in

0:34:25.359,0:34:32.000
with their namespaces

0:34:28.560,0:34:34.079
sorry storyblock uh they basically

0:34:32.000,0:34:36.000
like their main usp is this visual

0:34:34.079,0:34:38.000
bleeder so in any in

0:34:36.000,0:34:39.599
like all these modern cmss right now we

0:34:38.000,0:34:41.520
have kind of like a dashboard

0:34:39.599,0:34:43.599
when you have some visual representation

0:34:41.520,0:34:44.960
of uh of your website but this is

0:34:43.599,0:34:47.440
usually a block weaver name

0:34:44.960,0:34:48.560
maybe you can reorder them maybe there's

0:34:47.440,0:34:50.320
some kind of a preview

0:34:48.560,0:34:51.919
in terms of like maybe you're making

0:34:50.320,0:34:52.879
screenshots of this component so it's

0:34:51.919,0:34:55.919
visible in there

0:34:52.879,0:34:59.680
but just does this and in storyblock

0:34:55.919,0:35:01.359
you basically have an iframe

0:34:59.680,0:35:03.280
and in this iframe you can click on the

0:35:01.359,0:35:05.359
components on your application and

0:35:03.280,0:35:07.599
and and modify their content it's much

0:35:05.359,0:35:10.800
more immersive i would say

0:35:07.599,0:35:12.880
nice nice that's and for from

0:35:10.800,0:35:14.640
like yeah from the client perspective i

0:35:12.880,0:35:17.359
think it's super cool and if i were a

0:35:14.640,0:35:19.280
client i would definitely pick cms

0:35:17.359,0:35:21.359
mostly based on the on the ui of course

0:35:19.280,0:35:23.760
like the first is always pricing

0:35:21.359,0:35:24.880
yeah but then then they're offering more

0:35:23.760,0:35:26.320
or less the same things

0:35:24.880,0:35:29.520
of course like the devil is in the

0:35:26.320,0:35:30.960
details when you're a huge corporate

0:35:29.520,0:35:32.800
then it's completely different story

0:35:30.960,0:35:34.880
because maybe

0:35:32.800,0:35:36.000
maybe something in the agreement is even

0:35:34.880,0:35:38.800
a deal breaker

0:35:36.000,0:35:40.960
right for for someone who has just a you

0:35:38.800,0:35:43.119
know a small shop or or even media shop

0:35:40.960,0:35:45.920
but it's not a huge corporation

0:35:43.119,0:35:48.480
i think this produce productivity part

0:35:45.920,0:35:50.320
is super super important

0:35:48.480,0:35:52.240
that's interesting yeah i was looking at

0:35:50.320,0:35:54.880
some of the cms integrations and

0:35:52.240,0:35:56.000
i noticed that like adobe was one of the

0:35:54.880,0:35:59.119
partners too

0:35:56.000,0:36:00.640
i think adobe experience manager and

0:35:59.119,0:36:03.040
it's interesting because i i've been

0:36:00.640,0:36:04.560
trying to like better understand the

0:36:03.040,0:36:06.480
adobe ecosystem a little bit too

0:36:04.560,0:36:08.960
obviously as magenta was acquired

0:36:06.480,0:36:10.720
but it's like you can't really see the

0:36:08.960,0:36:12.640
products i don't think you can't just

0:36:10.720,0:36:14.720
see demos of them so like i

0:36:12.640,0:36:16.400
i i don't like i hear about adobe

0:36:14.720,0:36:16.960
experiment experience manager all the

0:36:16.400,0:36:18.560
time but

0:36:16.960,0:36:20.400
i don't really know how it works or

0:36:18.560,0:36:23.680
anything like that how it compares

0:36:20.400,0:36:25.680
to other cms options out there you know

0:36:23.680,0:36:27.520
yes exactly and you know this this is

0:36:25.680,0:36:29.280
like you can read all this list of

0:36:27.520,0:36:30.400
features and you could think oh this is

0:36:29.280,0:36:32.000
super cool

0:36:30.400,0:36:33.680
and then you're spending half a day to

0:36:32.000,0:36:35.040
figure out how to move a banner because

0:36:33.680,0:36:38.160
the ui is so shitty

0:36:35.040,0:36:39.520
great exactly

0:36:38.160,0:36:41.520
so this is this is exactly what i'm

0:36:39.520,0:36:44.160
talking about it's also all about

0:36:41.520,0:36:46.079
activity because like you know they're

0:36:44.160,0:36:48.480
the main purpose of this of these tools

0:36:46.079,0:36:50.960
is basically to make you more productive

0:36:48.480,0:36:52.720
yeah and it's it's it's crazy that

0:36:50.960,0:36:54.960
people still compare that on paper

0:36:52.720,0:36:56.560
like yeah okay so how this list of

0:36:54.960,0:36:58.000
features will make you more productive

0:36:56.560,0:36:59.599
productive than this list of features

0:36:58.000,0:37:03.040
these two lists of features are

0:36:59.599,0:37:04.880
almost the same yeah yeah yeah

0:37:03.040,0:37:06.720
you have to check this and like this

0:37:04.880,0:37:07.200
this is a super interesting learning i

0:37:06.720,0:37:10.400
have

0:37:07.200,0:37:13.280
after seeing so many cmss and

0:37:10.400,0:37:15.359
also i see that you know even though

0:37:13.280,0:37:16.720
they are very similar if cms is focusing

0:37:15.359,0:37:18.960
on a slightly different thing

0:37:16.720,0:37:20.160
which is also very cool because then

0:37:18.960,0:37:23.599
when we have clients

0:37:20.160,0:37:26.800
it's not like okay we're we're always uh

0:37:23.599,0:37:28.480
suggesting the cms because actually like

0:37:26.800,0:37:30.800
depending on the client depending on the

0:37:28.480,0:37:32.240
size of a client depending on on their

0:37:30.800,0:37:33.119
needs we can we can suggest something

0:37:32.240,0:37:35.839
else

0:37:33.119,0:37:37.440
okay it wasn't supposed to be a podcast

0:37:35.839,0:37:40.079
about cmss sorry

0:37:37.440,0:37:41.760
no no no it's okay i i mean it doesn't

0:37:40.079,0:37:43.280
have to be about anything specific i

0:37:41.760,0:37:45.920
like to just talk about whatever

0:37:43.280,0:37:48.160
comes up uh i'm just doing a lot of

0:37:45.920,0:37:50.320
stuff recently so

0:37:48.160,0:37:51.680
yeah i know i always yeah i always think

0:37:50.320,0:37:54.400
i always think whatever is

0:37:51.680,0:37:55.119
uh top of mind is the most interesting

0:37:54.400,0:37:57.680
thing to

0:37:55.119,0:37:59.040
to talk about um i remember you saying i

0:37:57.680,0:38:00.400
think i remember you tweeting that you

0:37:59.040,0:38:01.040
were thinking about starting a youtube

0:38:00.400,0:38:05.200
channel

0:38:01.040,0:38:06.880
did you end up uh doing that uh yeah so

0:38:05.200,0:38:08.640
we have a youtube channel for the

0:38:06.880,0:38:11.040
storefront and we have

0:38:08.640,0:38:12.240
one and a half k subscribers which is

0:38:11.040,0:38:15.119
pretty cool i think

0:38:12.240,0:38:16.400
like i i think for a youtube of

0:38:15.119,0:38:17.119
e-commerce platform that's a huge

0:38:16.400,0:38:20.000
audience

0:38:17.119,0:38:21.760
yeah and this is where actually i want i

0:38:20.000,0:38:24.000
want to post more videos

0:38:21.760,0:38:25.359
so i probably won't start anything by

0:38:24.000,0:38:27.440
myself but i'm thinking about

0:38:25.359,0:38:28.720
having some series on our youtube

0:38:27.440,0:38:30.960
channel so

0:38:28.720,0:38:32.560
you know the community can the community

0:38:30.960,0:38:33.599
can get the software a little bit better

0:38:32.560,0:38:36.160
maybe we can

0:38:33.599,0:38:37.839
maybe we can talk about some updates in

0:38:36.160,0:38:40.960
in a video format so it's

0:38:37.839,0:38:42.240
it's easier to consume you know we're

0:38:40.960,0:38:45.040
figuring that out

0:38:42.240,0:38:47.200
right now we also have a very uh i would

0:38:45.040,0:38:49.040
say proactive technological leaders of

0:38:47.200,0:38:50.960
different different uh products that we

0:38:49.040,0:38:52.480
have because we have still user front

0:38:50.960,0:38:53.760
one we have this booster from next we

0:38:52.480,0:38:56.480
have shopper pwa

0:38:53.760,0:38:58.079
we have storefront ui and you know all

0:38:56.480,0:39:00.079
of them want to create their content

0:38:58.079,0:39:02.640
right now they are mostly doing blog

0:39:00.079,0:39:04.240
posts but we plan to

0:39:02.640,0:39:06.240
you know conquer the youtube as well

0:39:04.240,0:39:07.920
it's much harder for me

0:39:06.240,0:39:09.760
especially it was it was super hard

0:39:07.920,0:39:12.720
because right now during this pandemic

0:39:09.760,0:39:14.400
when i'm doing talks for conferences i

0:39:12.720,0:39:15.040
usually have to record them because you

0:39:14.400,0:39:16.480
know you

0:39:15.040,0:39:19.119
you can't be sure about the network

0:39:16.480,0:39:21.359
conditions during the conference

0:39:19.119,0:39:22.480
so we always have to pre-record that and

0:39:21.359,0:39:24.720
then you are you are

0:39:22.480,0:39:26.000
for the q and a because like okay if you

0:39:24.720,0:39:27.839
don't make it to the

0:39:26.000,0:39:29.280
into the q and a it's okay it's

0:39:27.839,0:39:30.720
acceptable

0:39:29.280,0:39:33.200
uh i mean because of the network

0:39:30.720,0:39:36.640
connectivity not that you know you just

0:39:33.200,0:39:38.160
decided not to uh yeah it's interesting

0:39:36.640,0:39:40.480
it's super hard for me

0:39:38.160,0:39:42.240
you know to just talk to the camera and

0:39:40.480,0:39:44.640
and feel excited about what i'm talking

0:39:42.240,0:39:47.200
my talk on vijay is amsterdam

0:39:44.640,0:39:48.079
i think i was talking like a robot like

0:39:47.200,0:39:52.480
you know

0:39:48.079,0:39:56.560
the same volume this no emotions nothing

0:39:52.480,0:39:56.560
because i was i was you know on

0:39:57.920,0:40:01.440
yeah for my second stock so from view

0:40:00.320,0:40:03.280
toronto

0:40:01.440,0:40:04.800
uh which which is happening i think on

0:40:03.280,0:40:06.319
friday

0:40:04.800,0:40:07.920
right right now i think it's the biggest

0:40:06.319,0:40:09.839
view conference in the world because

0:40:07.920,0:40:11.200
they decided to do this for free and

0:40:09.839,0:40:13.040
online

0:40:11.200,0:40:15.440
i think that you know that's the perfect

0:40:13.040,0:40:19.200
combo for you know

0:40:15.440,0:40:21.920
no money but good marketing right and

0:40:19.200,0:40:23.520
and for this conference it was much

0:40:21.920,0:40:24.319
easier because i got a little bit used

0:40:23.520,0:40:28.000
to this

0:40:24.319,0:40:29.440
but i i i was hearing from many of my

0:40:28.000,0:40:31.280
colleagues who are speakers

0:40:29.440,0:40:32.800
and very very seasoned speakers you know

0:40:31.280,0:40:34.400
the people that are not just

0:40:32.800,0:40:35.839
entering the stage and talking about the

0:40:34.400,0:40:39.280
technology but they're

0:40:35.839,0:40:39.760
making a performance and they were

0:40:39.280,0:40:42.800
saying

0:40:39.760,0:40:44.480
the same things like okay so what what

0:40:42.800,0:40:46.480
should i do with this camera

0:40:44.480,0:40:47.520
yeah how to record how to how to feel

0:40:46.480,0:40:50.480
authentic and it's

0:40:47.520,0:40:53.040
it's it is super hard yeah like it was

0:40:50.480,0:40:54.960
much better for reacticon

0:40:53.040,0:40:56.319
i think mostly because it was it was

0:40:54.960,0:40:57.839
live first

0:40:56.319,0:40:59.520
so it's still better than the recording

0:40:57.839,0:41:01.280
but also there was isa

0:40:59.520,0:41:02.880
and he was doing excellent job in

0:41:01.280,0:41:04.400
warming up you know i

0:41:02.880,0:41:06.880
when when there is someone who is

0:41:04.400,0:41:08.720
warming up warming you up

0:41:06.880,0:41:10.480
then you kind of like feel like on the

0:41:08.720,0:41:11.760
live event i think it should it should

0:41:10.480,0:41:13.920
be a mandatory

0:41:11.760,0:41:15.839
for all the recordings right you know

0:41:13.920,0:41:18.319
when you when you have to do a recording

0:41:15.839,0:41:19.599
before that maybe the organizer maybe

0:41:18.319,0:41:22.560
maybe someone else

0:41:19.599,0:41:24.000
is not warming you up asking questions

0:41:22.560,0:41:27.119
etc and then you're

0:41:24.000,0:41:27.599
you know on full going and recording

0:41:27.119,0:41:30.000
this

0:41:27.599,0:41:30.640
yeah that's the missing totally yeah

0:41:30.000,0:41:33.440
because

0:41:30.640,0:41:34.240
it's uh it's it's just a different

0:41:33.440,0:41:36.880
medium

0:41:34.240,0:41:38.400
and when there's no like people there so

0:41:36.880,0:41:41.599
what do i do how do i

0:41:38.400,0:41:44.000
engage with this medium and uh

0:41:41.599,0:41:45.520
it's it's a tough i notice in in one of

0:41:44.000,0:41:47.119
your twitter threads that a lot of those

0:41:45.520,0:41:50.240
people that were

0:41:47.119,0:41:53.359
speakers were starting youtube channels

0:41:50.240,0:41:54.960
um which i think is is probably

0:41:53.359,0:41:57.119
um something that's going to continue to

0:41:54.960,0:41:59.359
happen you know as

0:41:57.119,0:42:00.800
speaking opportunities are i mean in

0:41:59.359,0:42:02.079
person speaking opportunities are

0:42:00.800,0:42:05.119
basically becoming

0:42:02.079,0:42:07.440
youtube opportunities you know

0:42:05.119,0:42:10.560
yeah yeah definitely i mean you know

0:42:07.440,0:42:13.280
after after i recorded these two videos

0:42:10.560,0:42:15.359
i don't have this barrier in my mind so

0:42:13.280,0:42:16.800
you know before i was recording the vgs

0:42:15.359,0:42:18.560
amsterdam talk

0:42:16.800,0:42:20.720
it wasn't only clicking clicking the

0:42:18.560,0:42:22.079
record button it was a whole fight that

0:42:20.720,0:42:24.480
happened in my head

0:42:22.079,0:42:24.480
actually

0:42:25.599,0:42:29.520
and you know for the second recording it

0:42:27.680,0:42:30.960
was a little bit easier but

0:42:29.520,0:42:32.640
but still the same but after these two

0:42:30.960,0:42:34.160
recordings right now when i when i was

0:42:32.640,0:42:34.800
supposed to send you this five seconds

0:42:34.160,0:42:38.400
video

0:42:34.800,0:42:40.400
i know i just i just clicked record and

0:42:38.400,0:42:43.599
recorded that send that and it all took

0:42:40.400,0:42:47.680
me 30 seconds and i was like [ __ ]

0:42:43.599,0:42:50.319
that was quick yeah it's

0:42:47.680,0:42:51.839
about getting used to this yeah it's a

0:42:50.319,0:42:53.040
lot of the little things too like

0:42:51.839,0:42:54.720
getting your setup

0:42:53.040,0:42:56.079
right so you're comfortable with it and

0:42:54.720,0:42:58.960
stuff like that

0:42:56.079,0:43:00.079
um but it it kind of it's kind of like

0:42:58.960,0:43:02.480
you mentioned a couple

0:43:00.079,0:43:03.520
uh city specific conferences that are

0:43:02.480,0:43:05.280
online

0:43:03.520,0:43:07.760
and it's kind of funny to me how there's

0:43:05.280,0:43:08.560
all these like city specific conferences

0:43:07.760,0:43:11.040
and everything's

0:43:08.560,0:43:12.400
remote online but they're still

0:43:11.040,0:43:15.440
organized by city

0:43:12.400,0:43:15.839
it's like it's just it's just kind of

0:43:15.440,0:43:18.400
funny

0:43:15.839,0:43:19.119
yeah yeah i was also thinking about this

0:43:18.400,0:43:22.160
i mean

0:43:19.119,0:43:25.680
for for some events it makes sense but

0:43:22.160,0:43:28.079
like usually on meetups on view meetups

0:43:25.680,0:43:30.160
you basically have like 50 percent of

0:43:28.079,0:43:32.800
talks of like people that are from there

0:43:30.160,0:43:34.079
and 50 percent are talks from either

0:43:32.800,0:43:37.119
like remote stock

0:43:34.079,0:43:39.280
or someone who just you know was was

0:43:37.119,0:43:41.599
around and then decided to

0:43:39.280,0:43:42.880
to do a talk and right now when

0:43:41.599,0:43:45.200
everything is global

0:43:42.880,0:43:46.160
you basically see the same talks and the

0:43:45.200,0:43:48.640
same faces

0:43:46.160,0:43:49.520
on most of the meetups because they have

0:43:48.640,0:43:51.839
international

0:43:49.520,0:43:52.720
lineup but like international lineup

0:43:51.839,0:43:54.160
what does it mean

0:43:52.720,0:43:56.240
it just means that we are picking from

0:43:54.160,0:43:59.359
this you know set of top

0:43:56.240,0:44:01.680
10 view conference speakers

0:43:59.359,0:44:02.960
and they apparently have a new talk so

0:44:01.680,0:44:04.880
then they are doing this new talk on

0:44:02.960,0:44:08.240
every [ __ ] meetup

0:44:04.880,0:44:08.240
this is why i'm not watching

0:44:08.800,0:44:12.160
meetup transmissions because i mostly

0:44:10.560,0:44:13.760
see the same thing yeah

0:44:12.160,0:44:16.000
it's it's hard because everybody's

0:44:13.760,0:44:20.560
trying to figure this out with kovid

0:44:16.000,0:44:23.040
and um we want to kind of copy

0:44:20.560,0:44:23.920
uh in some ways the local events to

0:44:23.040,0:44:25.520
remote events

0:44:23.920,0:44:27.040
like copy and paste but it's kind of

0:44:25.520,0:44:29.599
fundamentally different

0:44:27.040,0:44:31.200
um but i have to say your react to

0:44:29.599,0:44:33.040
contact i was like crack

0:44:31.200,0:44:34.640
like that's i think the first time i've

0:44:33.040,0:44:34.960
seen you talk and like you know you're

0:44:34.640,0:44:36.960
like

0:44:34.960,0:44:38.319
pretty serious and technical and stuff

0:44:36.960,0:44:40.640
like that but like

0:44:38.319,0:44:42.079
i was cracking up and i was just like oh

0:44:40.640,0:44:43.760
man i wish there was an

0:44:42.079,0:44:45.920
audience here to be laughing at all

0:44:43.760,0:44:48.000
these jokes

0:44:45.920,0:44:50.720
thanks thanks really glad to hear this

0:44:48.000,0:44:52.720
you know as i said i was

0:44:50.720,0:44:53.839
like he said did a great job in warming

0:44:52.720,0:44:56.319
me up

0:44:53.839,0:44:58.079
so i just had a good humor so you know

0:44:56.319,0:44:59.839
and this this is also a different type

0:44:58.079,0:45:03.359
of of conference when

0:44:59.839,0:45:04.160
when you have issa making all the dogs

0:45:03.359,0:45:06.720
preparing

0:45:04.160,0:45:08.560
uh all these graphics with animals and

0:45:06.720,0:45:12.079
with with funny captions

0:45:08.560,0:45:13.839
yeah it's also like

0:45:12.079,0:45:15.520
depends highly on the atmosphere and

0:45:13.839,0:45:16.000
basically what type of the conference it

0:45:15.520,0:45:17.920
is

0:45:16.000,0:45:19.040
i'm not sure i would be able to do the

0:45:17.920,0:45:21.599
same talk

0:45:19.040,0:45:22.480
on maybe some other conference so it's

0:45:21.599,0:45:24.640
very interesting

0:45:22.480,0:45:27.520
actually you know even though you're

0:45:24.640,0:45:29.680
doing everything remotely from home

0:45:27.520,0:45:31.040
you still kind of feel this atmosphere

0:45:29.680,0:45:34.319
because it's being built

0:45:31.040,0:45:36.560
over time yeah uh and that also

0:45:34.319,0:45:39.280
influences how you're doing this talk

0:45:36.560,0:45:41.520
and and maybe the topic and actually the

0:45:39.280,0:45:41.520
whole

0:45:41.680,0:45:46.000
the whole everything yeah yeah it's like

0:45:44.079,0:45:48.880
it's like it's it comes back to like

0:45:46.000,0:45:49.200
creating an atmosphere um whether that's

0:45:48.880,0:45:51.760
the

0:45:49.200,0:45:53.200
the the personality the warm-up the mood

0:45:51.760,0:45:54.960
the tone and then

0:45:53.200,0:45:56.720
the work that goes into production

0:45:54.960,0:45:58.160
post-production graphics all that stuff

0:45:56.720,0:46:00.000
makes a difference

0:45:58.160,0:46:01.599
um and it seems like he did a really

0:46:00.000,0:46:03.040
good job with that there's a lot of cool

0:46:01.599,0:46:05.119
stuff that came out of it

0:46:03.040,0:46:06.480
um you had some cool announcements you

0:46:05.119,0:46:09.599
know willem had

0:46:06.480,0:46:12.720
uh villain had you know his uh

0:46:09.599,0:46:14.319
his uh hiva themes and you know some

0:46:12.720,0:46:17.119
cool layerable stuff

0:46:14.319,0:46:18.079
by the way yeah i mean i really love the

0:46:17.119,0:46:21.280
concept

0:46:18.079,0:46:22.000
because ultimately like when the thing

0:46:21.280,0:46:23.359
that you want

0:46:22.000,0:46:25.040
when the problem that you want to solve

0:46:23.359,0:46:27.440
is performance

0:46:25.040,0:46:28.880
just the performance nothing else i

0:46:27.440,0:46:31.200
really believe that it should be handled

0:46:28.880,0:46:34.240
on the server side

0:46:31.200,0:46:35.680
because the main factor that is actually

0:46:34.240,0:46:38.079
influencing

0:46:35.680,0:46:39.680
how long your application is is being

0:46:38.079,0:46:40.400
downloaded and how long it's being

0:46:39.680,0:46:42.960
executed

0:46:40.400,0:46:44.880
is basically the javascript and the

0:46:42.960,0:46:46.960
javascript execution

0:46:44.880,0:46:49.280
on low-end devices it's even worse like

0:46:46.960,0:46:51.040
on phones it takes much longer

0:46:49.280,0:46:52.720
so it definitely be handled on the

0:46:51.040,0:46:54.560
server so we can be sure that the

0:46:52.720,0:46:56.319
experience is the same for everyone no

0:46:54.560,0:46:58.720
matter what device they have like

0:46:56.319,0:47:02.079
of course it will vary to some degree

0:46:58.720,0:47:05.040
but maybe we can minimize that

0:47:02.079,0:47:06.560
but then there is also a factor of user

0:47:05.040,0:47:08.400
experience

0:47:06.560,0:47:10.000
so single page applications are much

0:47:08.400,0:47:13.119
better are just much better for

0:47:10.000,0:47:15.119
the users to consume

0:47:13.119,0:47:18.560
so ideally we should have something that

0:47:15.119,0:47:20.240
is 95 percent rendered on the server

0:47:18.560,0:47:21.440
but then on the client side we still

0:47:20.240,0:47:22.559
have the smooth transitions and there

0:47:21.440,0:47:24.640
are things for this i mean there are

0:47:22.559,0:47:28.880
libraries for this and you can do this

0:47:24.640,0:47:30.480
without frameworks but you know

0:47:28.880,0:47:32.160
it's a little bit more complex when

0:47:30.480,0:47:35.599
you're creating the software because

0:47:32.160,0:47:38.640
it's not all about the end goals only

0:47:35.599,0:47:40.880
because you also have to somehow fit

0:47:38.640,0:47:42.800
into the market with the technology

0:47:40.880,0:47:44.880
uh you also have to think about the

0:47:42.800,0:47:46.240
productivity als you also have to think

0:47:44.880,0:47:48.480
about okay so

0:47:46.240,0:47:50.240
when it will be become popular would it

0:47:48.480,0:47:52.400
be hard to hire experts

0:47:50.240,0:47:54.319
on this on this particular areas in

0:47:52.400,0:47:56.960
terms of this storefront

0:47:54.319,0:47:57.920
right now we are really trying to use

0:47:56.960,0:48:01.520
technologies

0:47:57.920,0:48:03.599
that are very widely used

0:48:01.520,0:48:04.800
and have huge communities just because

0:48:03.599,0:48:06.559
of these competences

0:48:04.800,0:48:08.240
so it's much easier for agencies to

0:48:06.559,0:48:11.920
actually hire people where

0:48:08.240,0:48:11.920
sometimes we're even thinking okay so

0:48:12.559,0:48:17.520
how expensive developers knowing this

0:48:14.720,0:48:17.520
technology are

0:48:18.000,0:48:21.119
i mean there's a number of factors

0:48:20.079,0:48:22.720
influencing on

0:48:21.119,0:48:24.319
the technology influencing the

0:48:22.720,0:48:27.680
technologies that you repeat

0:48:24.319,0:48:29.599
uh to build the product and

0:48:27.680,0:48:31.520
and i think like from the technological

0:48:29.599,0:48:33.119
point of view what java is doing is

0:48:31.520,0:48:34.800
absolutely amazing if the only thing

0:48:33.119,0:48:37.440
that they the only problem that they

0:48:34.800,0:48:39.280
want to solve is performance

0:48:37.440,0:48:40.640
but also headless itself is bringing

0:48:39.280,0:48:43.920
much more

0:48:40.640,0:48:46.880
into the game than just performance and

0:48:43.920,0:48:48.800
i i would say that you know this oldest

0:48:46.880,0:48:50.559
headless pwas they will

0:48:48.800,0:48:52.160
all of them will probably score much

0:48:50.559,0:48:54.559
lower than just

0:48:52.160,0:48:56.240
uh you know of old-fashioned server side

0:48:54.559,0:48:58.079
render php application

0:48:56.240,0:48:59.280
but at the same time they are offering

0:48:58.079,0:49:00.480
much more in terms of the

0:48:59.280,0:49:02.880
maintainability

0:49:00.480,0:49:05.200
they are offering much more in terms of

0:49:02.880,0:49:06.720
uh the capabilities in terms of like how

0:49:05.200,0:49:08.720
you can scale this so i think that the

0:49:06.720,0:49:10.880
biggest value of headless is there

0:49:08.720,0:49:11.839
of course if you do this right you

0:49:10.880,0:49:14.079
usually have

0:49:11.839,0:49:15.200
much better performance but it is not

0:49:14.079,0:49:18.319
because

0:49:15.200,0:49:21.040
the this framework driven applications

0:49:18.319,0:49:23.119
are super fast this is just because

0:49:21.040,0:49:25.119
other applications are [ __ ] monoliths

0:49:23.119,0:49:27.599
and they are so slow

0:49:25.119,0:49:29.440
is that you know you you're just having

0:49:27.599,0:49:31.359
a better solution

0:49:29.440,0:49:33.200
but it's it's not definitely the best

0:49:31.359,0:49:35.119
solution yeah

0:49:33.200,0:49:36.880
what's the deal with al what's the deal

0:49:35.119,0:49:38.079
with alpine because everybody seems to

0:49:36.880,0:49:40.480
love alpine i

0:49:38.079,0:49:42.000
i haven't used it much myself i kind of

0:49:40.480,0:49:43.680
understand that it's

0:49:42.000,0:49:45.200
a little simpler you can do things like

0:49:43.680,0:49:47.119
template logic without having to create

0:49:45.200,0:49:50.240
a component things like that

0:49:47.119,0:49:52.240
um but i i think to my like vue has this

0:49:50.240,0:49:53.839
rich ecosystem for example like the view

0:49:52.240,0:49:54.640
multi-select widget that i use and

0:49:53.839,0:49:57.280
there's there's a

0:49:54.640,0:49:58.160
hundred examples of that so i try to i'm

0:49:57.280,0:50:00.720
thinking about

0:49:58.160,0:50:01.599
like how will it scale the use of alpine

0:50:00.720,0:50:03.359
or is that just

0:50:01.599,0:50:05.200
meant to be used for simple stuff and

0:50:03.359,0:50:07.599
then for more complex stuff

0:50:05.200,0:50:10.000
you bring in viewer react what's the

0:50:07.599,0:50:11.599
deal with it

0:50:10.000,0:50:13.920
i think i will disappoint you because i

0:50:11.599,0:50:17.359
don't have a any strong opinion on that

0:50:13.920,0:50:21.119
i used alpine only like

0:50:17.359,0:50:24.240
on some online ide but i can

0:50:21.119,0:50:27.599
maybe guess so

0:50:24.240,0:50:30.400
my guess is that people right now

0:50:27.599,0:50:31.440
are a little bit exhausted with all this

0:50:30.400,0:50:34.000
complexity

0:50:31.440,0:50:36.079
in not only javascript ecosystem but

0:50:34.000,0:50:40.559
basically front-end ecosystem

0:50:36.079,0:50:43.839
uh about things being you know

0:50:40.559,0:50:44.880
a knife a swiss knife maybe to do

0:50:43.839,0:50:47.599
everything

0:50:44.880,0:50:49.920
so right now what they are doing is you

0:50:47.599,0:50:51.920
know everyone advocating are advocating

0:50:49.920,0:50:53.760
about lower income bundle size using

0:50:51.920,0:50:55.520
class third parties etc

0:50:53.760,0:50:57.119
and basically this is what this is a

0:50:55.520,0:50:58.000
problem that alpine is kind of like

0:50:57.119,0:50:59.359
solving

0:50:58.000,0:51:00.960
so you're picking only the

0:50:59.359,0:51:02.880
functionalities that you need and

0:51:00.960,0:51:07.040
because of that you have small bundle

0:51:02.880,0:51:10.480
you have much lower entry level

0:51:07.040,0:51:14.319
and you can always scale up

0:51:10.480,0:51:16.640
mm-hmm but but when you might guess

0:51:14.319,0:51:18.240
you might guess and then when you scale

0:51:16.640,0:51:20.319
up you're going to scale up by like

0:51:18.240,0:51:21.280
adding for example reactor view

0:51:20.319,0:51:22.559
components like

0:51:21.280,0:51:25.680
there's not going to be this rich

0:51:22.559,0:51:27.119
ecosystem of like alpine components for

0:51:25.680,0:51:28.800
lots of different widgets that you would

0:51:27.119,0:51:32.880
need in components and things like that

0:51:28.800,0:51:36.000
most likely well you could do this

0:51:32.880,0:51:38.000
and you could also maybe wrap use web

0:51:36.000,0:51:40.720
components for this so then you have a

0:51:38.000,0:51:43.280
nice api that is basically

0:51:40.720,0:51:45.280
supported by most of the modern browsers

0:51:43.280,0:51:45.920
and that doesn't need any third party

0:51:45.280,0:51:49.200
calls to

0:51:45.920,0:51:51.680
to be downloaded you know like

0:51:49.200,0:51:52.800
when you're using this when you're using

0:51:51.680,0:51:55.119
view

0:51:52.800,0:51:56.800
then you're also like it's it's not

0:51:55.119,0:51:59.200
worth using some

0:51:56.800,0:52:00.160
third-party routing solution it's not

0:51:59.200,0:52:03.760
worth

0:52:00.160,0:52:05.920
uh using web components because

0:52:03.760,0:52:07.359
ultimately now you're a part of vj's

0:52:05.920,0:52:10.160
ecosystem and everything

0:52:07.359,0:52:12.160
works best when you're still within this

0:52:10.160,0:52:15.599
vgs ecosystem

0:52:12.160,0:52:17.040
so by like decision when you're deciding

0:52:15.599,0:52:18.000
that you want to use a framework you're

0:52:17.040,0:52:20.079
kind of deciding

0:52:18.000,0:52:21.440
that you're tied to some specific way of

0:52:20.079,0:52:24.800
solving problems

0:52:21.440,0:52:26.559
and picking tools that are you know

0:52:24.800,0:52:28.160
solving only the problem that you want

0:52:26.559,0:52:30.800
to solve but nothing else

0:52:28.160,0:52:33.440
gives you freedom to you know to decide

0:52:30.800,0:52:35.680
on solutions to other problems later

0:52:33.440,0:52:36.960
and maybe pick the better tools for that

0:52:35.680,0:52:39.119
yeah so like

0:52:36.960,0:52:41.359
there are many advantages but also a lot

0:52:39.119,0:52:42.880
of disadvantages because when you have

0:52:41.359,0:52:44.880
this vjs and you know that you can

0:52:42.880,0:52:48.240
handle so many things with that

0:52:44.880,0:52:51.839
uh ecosystem with that set of tools

0:52:48.240,0:52:53.839
that is known to some set of developers

0:52:51.839,0:52:56.160
it's much easier to hire talent

0:52:53.839,0:52:57.760
it's much easier to exchange knowledge

0:52:56.160,0:52:59.920
within a company when you have like a

0:52:57.760,0:53:00.880
bunch of products based on the same

0:52:59.920,0:53:03.280
framework

0:53:00.880,0:53:04.720
and for for you as a developer it's also

0:53:03.280,0:53:06.800
much easier to

0:53:04.720,0:53:08.960
increase your worth and like increase

0:53:06.800,0:53:10.640
your price on the market

0:53:08.960,0:53:12.079
because then you're learning a

0:53:10.640,0:53:15.119
technology

0:53:12.079,0:53:17.040
uh that everyone are using

0:53:15.119,0:53:18.319
so in theory you have much more places

0:53:17.040,0:53:20.240
where you can work and when you're

0:53:18.319,0:53:22.000
working on some hipster technology

0:53:20.240,0:53:24.559
then you're becoming an expert in this

0:53:22.000,0:53:26.400
technology and that's super cool

0:53:24.559,0:53:28.000
but when you want to change your job

0:53:26.400,0:53:30.160
maybe maybe do something

0:53:28.000,0:53:31.839
completely different a lot of your

0:53:30.160,0:53:35.920
experience could be worthless

0:53:31.839,0:53:38.160
i mean the technological parts of this

0:53:35.920,0:53:39.680
it's a weird um it's a weird like

0:53:38.160,0:53:41.839
trade-off because like

0:53:39.680,0:53:43.839
for example i've talked to people that

0:53:41.839,0:53:45.520
would prefer to do laravel development

0:53:43.839,0:53:46.480
but they do magento because it pays

0:53:45.520,0:53:49.200
better

0:53:46.480,0:53:51.920
um and like there's a level of

0:53:49.200,0:53:53.760
complexity and a learning curve to

0:53:51.920,0:53:56.319
magento but then like like you were

0:53:53.760,0:53:58.400
saying like as the platform

0:53:56.319,0:53:59.599
you're thinking more in terms of how can

0:53:58.400,0:54:01.839
we use

0:53:59.599,0:54:02.960
a tech stack that will allow companies

0:54:01.839,0:54:06.000
to hire

0:54:02.960,0:54:07.760
for the lowest possible amounts

0:54:06.000,0:54:09.440
right so you're using technologies that

0:54:07.760,0:54:12.880
are widely used

0:54:09.440,0:54:15.200
and that are maybe easier to use

0:54:12.880,0:54:16.319
or some you know like friendlier for

0:54:15.200,0:54:18.960
developers

0:54:16.319,0:54:20.640
right so this is this weird trade-off

0:54:18.960,0:54:22.960
where like sometimes like

0:54:20.640,0:54:24.240
the best technology means that

0:54:22.960,0:54:26.800
developers are paid less

0:54:24.240,0:54:27.359
because it's simpler to use you know

0:54:26.800,0:54:30.240
what i mean

0:54:27.359,0:54:31.680
whereas like an old like monolith code

0:54:30.240,0:54:35.760
base

0:54:31.680,0:54:39.440
might be better paid for the developer

0:54:35.760,0:54:41.040
yeah i mean you know there are so many

0:54:39.440,0:54:43.200
layers in this and

0:54:41.040,0:54:45.200
basically it all sums up let's say to

0:54:43.200,0:54:46.960
100

0:54:45.200,0:54:48.559
and then you have some some of this

0:54:46.960,0:54:50.559
percentage has to be

0:54:48.559,0:54:52.720
the technology itself some of this

0:54:50.559,0:54:56.000
percentage has to be okay so how

0:54:52.720,0:54:56.640
this particular technology operates in

0:54:56.000,0:54:58.640
the market

0:54:56.640,0:55:01.359
in the development market maybe some

0:54:58.640,0:55:03.760
part of this is you know how

0:55:01.359,0:55:06.640
how hard it is for a junior developer or

0:55:03.760,0:55:08.720
for someone else to jump into it because

0:55:06.640,0:55:09.920
this also translates into technological

0:55:08.720,0:55:12.400
depth so

0:55:09.920,0:55:13.680
the harder it is to use some technology

0:55:12.400,0:55:15.119
the easier it is to introduce

0:55:13.680,0:55:16.720
technological depth that was one of the

0:55:15.119,0:55:19.200
key reasons why you haven't choose to

0:55:16.720,0:55:19.200
react

0:55:19.520,0:55:22.960
so you know it's there there are many

0:55:21.119,0:55:25.920
layers there are many dimensions

0:55:22.960,0:55:26.799
and it's i think finding the perfect

0:55:25.920,0:55:28.880
balance

0:55:26.799,0:55:29.920
is something that we're looking for and

0:55:28.880,0:55:31.359
we surface

0:55:29.920,0:55:33.040
but not only i think everyone are

0:55:31.359,0:55:36.240
looking for this yeah but

0:55:33.040,0:55:39.040
certainly like you know

0:55:36.240,0:55:41.359
the the decision on on the technological

0:55:39.040,0:55:43.760
stack and architectural decision

0:55:41.359,0:55:46.240
it shouldn't be it's my subjective

0:55:43.760,0:55:47.280
opinion but it shouldn't be 100 driven

0:55:46.240,0:55:49.440
only by

0:55:47.280,0:55:51.119
uh by the technological requirements

0:55:49.440,0:55:51.920
because if that would be the case we

0:55:51.119,0:55:55.280
would all

0:55:51.920,0:55:57.200
write our applications in rust and just

0:55:55.280,0:55:59.119
compile it to webassembly because this

0:55:57.200,0:56:01.200
is what works best in the browser

0:55:59.119,0:56:03.040
right we're not doing it because it's a

0:56:01.200,0:56:04.720
low it's a low level language

0:56:03.040,0:56:06.319
and it's hard to be productive in this

0:56:04.720,0:56:09.040
it's easy to make mistakes

0:56:06.319,0:56:10.160
there are no many or as developers and

0:56:09.040,0:56:13.200
maybe it's not the

0:56:10.160,0:56:16.079
like the the future of rust

0:56:13.200,0:56:17.680
is not certain so even though it's a

0:56:16.079,0:56:19.599
perfect decision from the technical

0:56:17.680,0:56:22.720
standpoint from the business standpoint

0:56:19.599,0:56:24.559
yeah not

0:56:22.720,0:56:25.760
maybe not the best one yeah well it's

0:56:24.559,0:56:29.440
like php like

0:56:25.760,0:56:32.559
people love to crap on php as a language

0:56:29.440,0:56:33.280
but it's uh very successful in the sense

0:56:32.559,0:56:37.119
that

0:56:33.280,0:56:39.599
it's so widely used um widely understood

0:56:37.119,0:56:43.200
so there's a lot of those practical

0:56:39.599,0:56:44.000
considerations um yeah it was my first

0:56:43.200,0:56:48.079
web language so

0:56:44.000,0:56:51.359
um yeah back then i think it was

0:56:48.079,0:56:52.720
it was for something so it came a very

0:56:51.359,0:56:55.680
long way since there

0:56:52.720,0:56:57.200
yeah i'm not i'm i i have totally no

0:56:55.680,0:57:00.400
idea how it looks right now

0:56:57.200,0:57:04.079
sometimes i'm just saying you use php4

0:57:00.400,0:57:07.200
and you're 25 you must have been like

0:57:04.079,0:57:08.240
15 or something i started coding when i

0:57:07.200,0:57:13.680
was 13.

0:57:08.240,0:57:13.680
okay nice and it was just because uh

0:57:13.760,0:57:17.200
i think that was the the first web page

0:57:16.640,0:57:20.960
i made

0:57:17.200,0:57:22.880
was even it was six seven grades so i

0:57:20.960,0:57:26.160
was

0:57:22.880,0:57:26.640
11 and it was made in microsoft front

0:57:26.160,0:57:28.480
page

0:57:26.640,0:57:30.720
so that was actually a we see week

0:57:28.480,0:57:32.400
builder for web pages

0:57:30.720,0:57:36.480
and back then you know i had no idea

0:57:32.400,0:57:40.400
about the cf css about the html etc

0:57:36.480,0:57:42.960
and you know i i slowly started uh

0:57:40.400,0:57:44.640
seeing that this this we see week editor

0:57:42.960,0:57:46.480
is kind of limiting me

0:57:44.640,0:57:48.240
and they're sometimes faster to make

0:57:46.480,0:57:50.480
some changes in the code directly than

0:57:48.240,0:57:52.640
in the swiss week editor

0:57:50.480,0:57:55.520
so you know i started making some subtle

0:57:52.640,0:57:57.359
changes like changing colors in the cms

0:57:55.520,0:57:59.040
maybe adding a table or maybe

0:57:57.359,0:58:00.640
structuring my website with tables in

0:57:59.040,0:58:01.520
the code because it's much faster than

0:58:00.640,0:58:03.680
in this usb

0:58:01.520,0:58:07.200
editor and slowly i was you know

0:58:03.680,0:58:09.599
transitioning from this visual editor to

0:58:07.200,0:58:11.440
programmer and i think this is how i

0:58:09.599,0:58:15.200
started and i really liked that and

0:58:11.440,0:58:17.040
shortly after that my father offered me

0:58:15.200,0:58:20.160
to make a website for his company

0:58:17.040,0:58:22.720
and then uh i i did it and then you know

0:58:20.160,0:58:23.680
some armed and you know colleague of an

0:58:22.720,0:58:26.079
ant and

0:58:23.680,0:58:26.880
no it was rolling for for a couple of

0:58:26.079,0:58:29.119
years

0:58:26.880,0:58:30.640
until i started doing woocommerce and

0:58:29.119,0:58:33.680
wordpress

0:58:30.640,0:58:36.960
and then i transitioned from a developer

0:58:33.680,0:58:38.640
again to like a visual developer because

0:58:36.960,0:58:41.599
in wordpress everything is so

0:58:38.640,0:58:42.640
easy like you don't have to code at all

0:58:41.599,0:58:44.000
you have all this

0:58:42.640,0:58:46.160
you have a bunch of plugins and you

0:58:44.000,0:58:49.119
basically to be fluent

0:58:46.160,0:58:50.160
fluent in wordpress you have to know the

0:58:49.119,0:58:52.559
tools

0:58:50.160,0:58:53.680
for for the task that that you have to

0:58:52.559,0:58:55.359
fulfill

0:58:53.680,0:58:57.760
mostly the plugins and that's it and how

0:58:55.359,0:58:58.640
to configure them i was using a visual

0:58:57.760,0:59:00.480
editor called

0:58:58.640,0:59:02.319
divi i think it's the most popular right

0:59:00.480,0:59:02.960
now but then it wasn't the most popular

0:59:02.319,0:59:04.799
but

0:59:02.960,0:59:06.240
it should be even back then and

0:59:04.799,0:59:08.319
basically if you

0:59:06.240,0:59:10.559
you were in control of all the structure

0:59:08.319,0:59:12.480
of the web page of all the content

0:59:10.559,0:59:14.880
it worked like all these headless cmss

0:59:12.480,0:59:15.760
right now but it was built into the into

0:59:14.880,0:59:18.079
the wordpress

0:59:15.760,0:59:19.599
right and i think it's it's 10 years old

0:59:18.079,0:59:22.880
right now or something like this

0:59:19.599,0:59:24.160
so it's you know nice everything that

0:59:22.880,0:59:27.520
we're seeing right now it's

0:59:24.160,0:59:28.640
innovative was was actually figured out

0:59:27.520,0:59:31.839
long time ago

0:59:28.640,0:59:34.160
and even and right now we are saying

0:59:31.839,0:59:36.240
okay so now it will be consumed with the

0:59:34.160,0:59:38.400
api

0:59:36.240,0:59:40.000
and everyone are freaking out that's the

0:59:38.400,0:59:42.160
big innovation

0:59:40.000,0:59:43.119
i'm actually gonna have uh 80 on the

0:59:42.160,0:59:46.640
podcast soon

0:59:43.119,0:59:46.880
the uh co-founder of woocommerce um so

0:59:46.640,0:59:48.720
i'm

0:59:46.880,0:59:50.240
all excited about that yeah it should be

0:59:48.720,0:59:53.680
cool yeah i would like

0:59:50.240,0:59:57.520
i wouldn't be if i worry as well yeah

0:59:53.680,1:00:00.640
i mean this is a revolutionary software

0:59:57.520,1:00:02.880
yeah yeah and

1:00:00.640,1:00:04.000
you know you you can say many bad things

1:00:02.880,1:00:06.400
about this but

1:00:04.000,1:00:08.160
the software itself i think is great

1:00:06.400,1:00:09.200
it's always the ecosystem that makes

1:00:08.160,1:00:12.160
problems

1:00:09.200,1:00:12.799
everywhere right no matter you know how

1:00:12.160,1:00:15.760
many

1:00:12.799,1:00:16.720
how how long you will sit on optimizing

1:00:15.760,1:00:18.480
this

1:00:16.720,1:00:20.799
someone will make an extension that will

1:00:18.480,1:00:23.440
become popular and that will be a total

1:00:20.799,1:00:23.440
total shift

1:00:24.000,1:00:27.760
from the swell yeah you know clients or

1:00:26.400,1:00:29.839
people slack

1:00:27.760,1:00:31.200
they are telling us okay so i so i

1:00:29.839,1:00:34.240
search through your

1:00:31.200,1:00:35.280
uh i search through your live cases and

1:00:34.240,1:00:37.680
i can't

1:00:35.280,1:00:38.960
find a pro good lighthouse score that

1:00:37.680,1:00:42.000
you have on the demo

1:00:38.960,1:00:44.559
why is that and then you know i i

1:00:42.000,1:00:45.680
could always maybe i could i could

1:00:44.559,1:00:47.520
prepare some letter

1:00:45.680,1:00:49.280
to them and and just send this because

1:00:47.520,1:00:50.880
there's so many factors influencing that

1:00:49.280,1:00:51.599
like you know what third parties you're

1:00:50.880,1:00:54.720
choosing

1:00:51.599,1:00:57.599
how you use the software because right

1:00:54.720,1:00:59.040
we like you know comparing april's to

1:00:57.599,1:01:01.040
grapes or

1:00:59.040,1:01:02.400
you could you could say that okay so we

1:01:01.040,1:01:03.440
have pwa studio and we have the

1:01:02.400,1:01:06.000
storefront

1:01:03.440,1:01:07.359
uh and then we have 10 shops on this one

1:01:06.000,1:01:09.040
and 10 shops on this one

1:01:07.359,1:01:10.880
and this shops are scoring better the

1:01:09.040,1:01:12.480
the shops are going worse does it mean

1:01:10.880,1:01:15.680
that

1:01:12.480,1:01:16.319
there's a million reasons why no yeah

1:01:15.680,1:01:18.079
yeah exactly

1:01:16.319,1:01:19.760
yeah yeah it's it's just a mix of

1:01:18.079,1:01:20.079
different reasons this is why i don't

1:01:19.760,1:01:22.319
like

1:01:20.079,1:01:24.400
comparisons like this right i don't like

1:01:22.319,1:01:26.079
when you know someone is

1:01:24.400,1:01:27.839
some someone from competition for

1:01:26.079,1:01:30.799
example is is uh

1:01:27.839,1:01:32.400
launching their website i mean their

1:01:30.799,1:01:33.760
clients are launching their website i'm

1:01:32.400,1:01:37.119
checking the lighthouse score

1:01:33.760,1:01:38.480
i'm think okay 20. does it mean that

1:01:37.119,1:01:41.119
this platform is bad

1:01:38.480,1:01:41.839
probably no probably all that that means

1:01:41.119,1:01:44.319
that they have

1:01:41.839,1:01:45.040
a lot of tracking on their website and

1:01:44.319,1:01:47.280
that's it

1:01:45.040,1:01:49.119
yeah and you know you you you spend

1:01:47.280,1:01:50.880
countless hours on optimizing stuff

1:01:49.119,1:01:52.559
and then your client will throw so many

1:01:50.880,1:01:55.680
tracking stuff into this website

1:01:52.559,1:01:58.079
that it's impossible to to run smooth

1:01:55.680,1:01:59.680
and it happens everywhere they'll throw

1:01:58.079,1:02:03.920
a chat widget on there

1:01:59.680,1:02:06.720
that'll screw up yeah the performance

1:02:03.920,1:02:07.760
um yeah even even even from for one of

1:02:06.720,1:02:09.280
our clients

1:02:07.760,1:02:11.920
because we also have this issue that

1:02:09.280,1:02:15.680
lighthouse is actually not measuring

1:02:11.920,1:02:18.079
uh vista from properly

1:02:15.680,1:02:19.200
and we talked with google about this i

1:02:18.079,1:02:22.480
think two years ago

1:02:19.200,1:02:24.319
about because there uh

1:02:22.480,1:02:25.760
basically insights i think this is how

1:02:24.319,1:02:27.599
the name of this website

1:02:25.760,1:02:29.039
where you're just pasting a link of the

1:02:27.599,1:02:30.000
website and then you're getting the

1:02:29.039,1:02:31.359
lighthouse score

1:02:30.000,1:02:33.599
it's showing completely different scores

1:02:31.359,1:02:35.359
than local lighthouse runs and we figure

1:02:33.599,1:02:38.400
out after very long time why

1:02:35.359,1:02:42.000
so it doesn't support http 2

1:02:38.400,1:02:43.760
and sometimes are not detecting the

1:02:42.000,1:02:45.119
browser idle properly

1:02:43.760,1:02:47.359
which means that if you have your

1:02:45.119,1:02:48.319
website loaded and when your website is

1:02:47.359,1:02:51.200
loaded and you have

1:02:48.319,1:02:52.880
something to prefetch uh it always

1:02:51.200,1:02:54.079
happens after the browser is idle so the

1:02:52.880,1:02:56.960
full page is load

1:02:54.079,1:02:57.760
and if the tool can't detect that then

1:02:56.960,1:03:00.319
it adds

1:02:57.760,1:03:01.200
you know all this prefetching to time to

1:03:00.319,1:03:02.799
interactive

1:03:01.200,1:03:04.799
so even though the page is loaded and

1:03:02.799,1:03:06.799
now you are downloading the content that

1:03:04.799,1:03:08.799
will be required for another route

1:03:06.799,1:03:09.920
it's still still counting this as wrong

1:03:08.799,1:03:11.839
time uh as

1:03:09.920,1:03:13.920
a time to interactive so we had this

1:03:11.839,1:03:16.799
issue for a very long time

1:03:13.920,1:03:18.240
uh and combine this with the lack of

1:03:16.799,1:03:20.400
http to support

1:03:18.240,1:03:23.520
where so you you can basically download

1:03:20.400,1:03:25.839
only five things at the time

1:03:23.520,1:03:28.000
and it's a disaster and we had one

1:03:25.839,1:03:31.760
client who was complaining like you know

1:03:28.000,1:03:32.880
my uh largest contentful paint is 37

1:03:31.760,1:03:36.000
seconds

1:03:32.880,1:03:39.440
and he's you know sending sending me the

1:03:36.000,1:03:41.599
the screenshot of this lighthouse score

1:03:39.440,1:03:43.280
and you know it's very hard actually to

1:03:41.599,1:03:45.280
tell your client that lighthouse is

1:03:43.280,1:03:45.760
basically a tool and it could have bugs

1:03:45.280,1:03:48.640
and it's

1:03:45.760,1:03:50.319
yeah it's just you know some kind of

1:03:48.640,1:03:54.640
measurement but you always have to

1:03:50.319,1:03:57.440
measure received performance and and

1:03:54.640,1:03:58.480
you know i'm right right now i i tested

1:03:57.440,1:04:00.240
the same website on

1:03:58.480,1:04:01.520
web page test which is a different

1:04:00.240,1:04:02.160
website that is measuring the same

1:04:01.520,1:04:04.880
things

1:04:02.160,1:04:05.920
and the results are completely different

1:04:04.880,1:04:08.000
completely different

1:04:05.920,1:04:10.640
instead of 37 seconds we have two and

1:04:08.000,1:04:10.640
half seconds

1:04:11.520,1:04:18.559
that's a little bit of a difference

1:04:14.559,1:04:22.079
yeah yeah so like you know you can

1:04:18.559,1:04:24.319
these tools are great like lighthouses

1:04:22.079,1:04:25.680
as the as the name suggests but it's

1:04:24.319,1:04:27.359
just the lighthouse it doesn't mean

1:04:25.680,1:04:30.720
that's that's your ultimate goal

1:04:27.359,1:04:31.920
yeah and you can't just focus on the

1:04:30.720,1:04:33.200
numbers in there

1:04:31.920,1:04:34.960
and not measure the perceived

1:04:33.200,1:04:36.079
performance which is basically how good

1:04:34.960,1:04:37.920
it is to

1:04:36.079,1:04:39.760
to use your website because i've seen a

1:04:37.920,1:04:40.720
bunch of websites that have perfect

1:04:39.760,1:04:42.160
lighthouse scores

1:04:40.720,1:04:44.000
but they are totally shitty i've even

1:04:42.160,1:04:46.799
written an article uh

1:04:44.000,1:04:48.799
from some guy who was writing how to

1:04:46.799,1:04:50.160
create a website that is totally

1:04:48.799,1:04:52.839
unaccessible

1:04:50.160,1:04:55.280
but scores 100 inaccessibility in

1:04:52.839,1:04:58.400
lighthouse

1:04:55.280,1:05:00.559
hacking lighthouse yeah

1:04:58.400,1:05:02.640
and you know all of this is just showing

1:05:00.559,1:05:03.760
us that these are just tools to measure

1:05:02.640,1:05:07.200
the performance

1:05:03.760,1:05:09.680
yeah and being completely honest for me

1:05:07.200,1:05:10.559
as a developer and as an author of a

1:05:09.680,1:05:12.400
software

1:05:10.559,1:05:14.960
life was much much easier before

1:05:12.400,1:05:17.039
lighthouse because right now

1:05:14.960,1:05:19.839
all clients think that lighthouse score

1:05:17.039,1:05:21.920
is the ultimate single source of truth

1:05:19.839,1:05:24.160
uh telling how good your website is

1:05:21.920,1:05:25.920
performing well it's not true at all

1:05:24.160,1:05:27.680
right you know when when you're when

1:05:25.920,1:05:29.680
when you see this 37

1:05:27.680,1:05:30.960
seconds for largest contentful end you

1:05:29.680,1:05:32.640
think oh my god like

1:05:30.960,1:05:34.480
no one will visit yet people are

1:05:32.640,1:05:36.400
visiting this and seeing their

1:05:34.480,1:05:37.599
largest content full paint after two

1:05:36.400,1:05:40.640
seconds yeah

1:05:37.599,1:05:41.680
yeah oh why why why why why why it says

1:05:40.640,1:05:46.000
47

1:05:41.680,1:05:48.720
yeah so like you know no perfect

1:05:46.000,1:05:50.559
yeah i don't even remember when when

1:05:48.720,1:05:53.119
where this started so let's let's just

1:05:50.559,1:05:54.480
finish that with no perfect tools

1:05:53.119,1:05:57.119
well this is probably a good place to

1:05:54.480,1:05:58.640
stop um again congrats on uh

1:05:57.119,1:06:00.799
all the success i'll be looking forward

1:05:58.640,1:06:03.760
to that announcement whatever it is

1:06:00.799,1:06:06.000
uh later this year and it was a lot of

1:06:03.760,1:06:07.920
fun catching up

1:06:06.000,1:06:09.440
thank you very much for having me i was

1:06:07.920,1:06:11.839
also really excited i'm watching your

1:06:09.440,1:06:15.039
podcast podcast or listening like

1:06:11.839,1:06:16.079
basically i'm watching this uh even even

1:06:15.039,1:06:18.720
though it's a podcast

1:06:16.079,1:06:19.680
and you know at the beginning of my

1:06:18.720,1:06:21.760
career

1:06:19.680,1:06:24.079
you were kind of like a celebrity in the

1:06:21.760,1:06:25.839
mud in the man rental space and i would

1:06:24.079,1:06:27.039
never imagine that i would be a guessing

1:06:25.839,1:06:27.599
podcast so thank you very much for

1:06:27.039,1:06:32.559
having me

1:06:27.599,1:06:32.559
yeah you're welcome