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#86 It's Really Hard To Copy An Offline Event To An Online Event | Guido Jansen

Guido Jansen is a cognitive psychologist, the host of the CRO.CAFE podcast on conversion rate optimization, a Magento Association board member, and a community & nocode builder.

Transcript
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what is he doing what are you doing with

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yourself and

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i do you have a job my girlfriend asked

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the same question

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what are you doing what is happening

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yeah

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you're going up going up to the attic

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every day

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yeah what happens there

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[Music]

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congrats on the individual uh

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experimentation culture award

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for cro cafe uh that was really cool

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that was a month or two ago that you got

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that yeah september

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uh yeah i got that for uh for spreading

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some some culture around um

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around uh conversion optimization

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basically yeah what is that job that i

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do

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what does that mean as far as like

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culture like like does that mean like

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spreading that experimentation culture

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to other companies kind of a thing

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okay yeah other other companies

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uh other other zero specialists and

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helping other xero specialists

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doing this within their company

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basically what we are experiencing is is

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that

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um that's often an issue that uh you can

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just

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as a cross specialist you can just start

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optimizing your websites uh

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doing user testing doing optimization in

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whatever way

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a b testing surveys whatever

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needs to be done but often times you

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you run into a wall after a year or two

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where you there's a limit to what you

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can do as a person or as a team

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if you don't get the whole company with

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you and actually i was talking to a

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podcast guest

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uh uh i think two weeks ago and he

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actually said

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it's actually weird because actually do

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doing cro

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and keeping your your audience close and

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and or your your users close looking at

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what they do

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validating that's agile

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but and most companies that do agile

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don't necessarily

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imp haven't implemented this in the

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right way and they don't

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actually bring in users and actually

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look at that so actually we're trying to

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to

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help companies to do a better job at

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agile

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so like in other words the idea of

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continually

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optimizing conversion rates better

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understanding your users

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is like your gear like you say you're

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keeping your users

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close as opposed to like farther away

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where you're not understanding their

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needs you're not as reactive to their

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needs and that

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that like continual process is basically

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like

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similar to like an agile mindset as far

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as like agile development methodology

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yeah yeah yeah it's a it's it's it's

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very similar and and

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many people are not necessarily used to

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doing that because it basically means

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that if you're if you're developing

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and of course in in development you

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might be doing it but i also work with a

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lot of

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online marketing teams and they don't

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necessarily oh yeah we do agile because

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the

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development team is doing agile but we

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actually have no id

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um and many of those people and

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including developers i don't necessarily

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want to exclude them

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you don't necessarily want to say i

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don't know

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i don't know what the best solution is

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yeah kiddo look at my website what

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should we do

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i don't know sure i have a lot of

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experience i have a psychology

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background i know the limitations of our

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brain how people react but

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you specifically what you need to

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improve right now to

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to uh get better results i don't know

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talk with your users

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today i actually had a funny discussion

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with with someone he added all these

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improvement points for his website what

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he wanted to uh

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be done on his website and one of the

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things he asked

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who are my users i'm like you're running

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a business you don't know who your users

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are

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you tell me you have that's a big issue

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that you're having you should know this

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um right

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i can help you with uh to get some

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insights and of course

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it's a bit exaggerated uh but if you

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don't know

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yeah he had an idea of who users are but

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to get more insight into your users you

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don't only look at

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and that's that's another thing that a

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lot of companies

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do because it's so easy just install

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google analytics

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and or any other analytics tool and

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start collecting data

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and have no idea what it's what it does

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or what it means and or

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or drown yourself in that data without

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actually

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looking at a user how they are

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performing

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when they go through your website and

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i know from experience that is painful

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it's excruciating to watch someone go

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through

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a website that you created that's very

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painful

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so i saw this i i sorry says i

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saw this movie and it was it stuck out

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it was like some cheesy christmas movie

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but it stuck out it was like we're

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watching it to fall asleep kind of a

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thing

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but like one of the people in the movie

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was a web designer and i was like oh he

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was a ux designer

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and it's like the first time i've seen a

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movie where one of the characters

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happens to be like a web designer

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so then like in the in the movie uh her

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dad has this like business or something

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so she makes a website for him for like

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christmas

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and then she shows him the website and

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it's like

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everything goes perfect it's like here's

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this website he looks at it

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and it's like oh this is perfect thanks

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i was like i was like yelling at the

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screen i was like it never goes like

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that

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it's always like they can't even click

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the first button you know they're so

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confused well

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unless the web developer had a very

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um decent history in in uh and and

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its surveys created an mvp uh

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went out on the streets yeah because

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people the actual one

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it could it could happen it's probably

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no no she just was like in the room like

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working on it it showed her out the

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laptop

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and i was like that's that's not how it

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goes

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and it's really hard to imagine what the

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user wants right and and when people ask

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me to

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or or xero's specialist you you're

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probably not

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targeting zero specialists it's really

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hard to imagine

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being someone else and stepping into

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their shoes and going through

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a website or any buying process

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that someone else might have right it

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really helps to just sit down and do

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that user research

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and i think i've said that last time too

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but it's it's

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mind-blowing the number of companies

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that that don't do this

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well it's it's relatively easy to do i

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mean um

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sure you have a lot of data in google

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analytics and that might tell you

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where something is going wrong but you

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have no idea why it's going wrong that's

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not what it's telling and

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instead of digging deeper into google

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analytics and spending weeks or months

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to perfect

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perfect that just sit down with a couple

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of users

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i mean that's also not perfect those

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research methods have they have their

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issues too

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but if you combine all that uh all that

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that data from

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uh qualitative and quantitative research

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you get a pretty good picture

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of what's going on look at some users

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yeah it's yeah it's

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relatively well of course i'm trained to

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do it but it's relatively simple

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to do uh user research uh

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compared to a lot of other things

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companies do to

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try to respond are there tools that i

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mean there's so many tools for analytics

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google analytics is the main one um i

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was looking at like

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llvr recently which is like a e-commerce

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some kind of a tool analytics tool

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there's probably a billion of them

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are there any tools whether for

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analytics or specifically user research

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that are just great or is it kind of

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like

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uh they all sort of just suffer from the

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same problem of like

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data data overload

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uh yeah

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next question

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what you think you should be doing is

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it's trying to collect data from from

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multiple

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so what you're trying to do is gather

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evidence

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you're a detective you're trying to

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figure out okay where are people getting

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stuck

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and why and if if you get stuck in one

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mode of

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of uh doing research if it's only google

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analytics or

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only surveys or only only user research

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or only a b

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testing it's probably not going to get

0:08:41.360,0:08:43.839
you

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far but if you can combine those

0:08:43.839,0:08:47.040
different sources see okay

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google analytics is showing me that this

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is the biggest drop-off point in their

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websites

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i use user research to figure out why

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they are dropping off

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and then i use a b testing to figure out

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exactly which combination

0:08:57.519,0:09:00.959
is going to fix this problem it's going

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to move the needle then you have a

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decent

0:09:02.160,0:09:05.360
then you then you are the detective that

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found all these different clues

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put that together and actually validated

0:09:08.720,0:09:12.959
uh the the issue and and um and uh and

0:09:12.160,0:09:14.399
the subsequent

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changes that you made and that actually

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has a business impact if you just get

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stuck

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in one analytics tool that's never gonna

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well that's

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one tool maybe that i want to highlight

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uh which is hot jar

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but hot jar is actually a collection of

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tools okay

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so that's that that's what makes it a

0:09:29.120,0:09:34.000
bit easier because it's like

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five six tools in one uh so that makes

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it

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one of the better tools if if there's

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nothing

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you have running right now uh go start

0:09:40.880,0:09:44.959
with hotjar and if you if there's

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one uh sub tool in all jar that's

0:09:44.959,0:09:48.160
limited for your use

0:09:46.560,0:09:50.240
you can always upgrade of course to a

0:09:48.160,0:09:51.760
more expensive tool are they sponsoring

0:09:50.240,0:09:54.160
your podcast be honest

0:09:51.760,0:09:54.880
you got to disclose these things okay do

0:09:54.160,0:09:57.760
you have i'm

0:09:54.880,0:09:59.760
not i'm i'm an official uh founding

0:09:57.760,0:10:03.440
member of whole jar in in i don't know

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2012 or something really nice

0:10:03.440,0:10:06.640
that doesn't doesn't do anything for my

0:10:05.040,0:10:09.680
bank account so are you

0:10:06.640,0:10:12.399
um although indirectly i'm sure it does

0:10:09.680,0:10:13.360
does a lot for the old bank accounts are

0:10:12.399,0:10:14.959
you um

0:10:13.360,0:10:16.720
how with the podcast are you starting to

0:10:14.959,0:10:17.519
get sponsors i mean the podcast looks

0:10:16.720,0:10:21.519
like it's doing

0:10:17.519,0:10:24.880
super well um you got a ton of episodes

0:10:21.519,0:10:27.519
i was checking out 150 now nice

0:10:24.880,0:10:29.600
that's awesome yeah uh are you getting

0:10:27.519,0:10:31.680
sponsors

0:10:29.600,0:10:33.040
yeah so and then started out with

0:10:31.680,0:10:35.040
sponsors actually

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uh so i was lucky doing that uh

0:10:35.040,0:10:39.920
currently uh five sponsors

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and doing it on a subscription basis so

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it's a monthly subscription fee for the

0:10:41.519,0:10:46.320
sponsors

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and um in exchange for uh exposure of

0:10:46.320,0:10:50.800
course that's how

0:10:47.519,0:10:52.480
those sponsorships work yeah nice man um

0:10:50.800,0:10:54.640
so what are you it's funny because i

0:10:52.480,0:10:56.160
remember you had left vimo

0:10:54.640,0:10:57.760
and you were kind of looking for some

0:10:56.160,0:10:59.279
stuff and so i looked at your linkedin

0:10:57.760,0:11:00.000
profile i was like what is he doing what

0:10:59.279,0:11:03.680
are you doing with

0:11:00.000,0:11:06.959
yourself and i do you have a job

0:11:03.680,0:11:06.959
my girlfriend asked the same question

0:11:08.800,0:11:11.839
what are you doing what is happening

0:11:11.519,0:11:13.920
yeah

0:11:11.839,0:11:15.360
you're going up going up to the attic

0:11:13.920,0:11:17.680
every day

0:11:15.360,0:11:18.480
yeah what happens there what goes on up

0:11:17.680,0:11:20.560
there

0:11:18.480,0:11:22.720
that's where the magic happens yeah no

0:11:20.560,0:11:24.240
i'm doing from uh so freelance and uh

0:11:22.720,0:11:26.560
i'm really enjoying the podcast doing

0:11:24.240,0:11:30.000
that but doing some uh

0:11:26.560,0:11:33.200
freelance i work on the side nice

0:11:30.000,0:11:34.640
that's cool um that's awesome

0:11:33.200,0:11:37.360
some training some consultancy i'm

0:11:34.640,0:11:39.279
helping a company uh training their

0:11:37.360,0:11:42.800
teams or there's a

0:11:39.279,0:11:43.680
digital marketing team agency they they

0:11:42.800,0:11:45.920
help clients

0:11:43.680,0:11:47.200
doing this they originally focused

0:11:45.920,0:11:49.360
mainly on

0:11:47.200,0:11:50.320
uh on getting traffic you know the

0:11:49.360,0:11:53.680
traditional

0:11:50.320,0:11:55.279
affiliate seo sea marketing and now they

0:11:53.680,0:11:56.720
want to expand their services into xero

0:11:55.279,0:11:57.360
so i'm training their team to do this

0:11:56.720,0:12:00.480
cool

0:11:57.360,0:12:02.959
nice um have you ever thought about

0:12:00.480,0:12:04.720
branding so i want to i'm trying to

0:12:02.959,0:12:06.000
brainstorm this for myself but with your

0:12:04.720,0:12:08.399
podcast

0:12:06.000,0:12:10.399
have you thought about branding it as

0:12:08.399,0:12:11.519
your name you know like the hito johnson

0:12:10.399,0:12:15.040
show

0:12:11.519,0:12:17.760
um obviously it's cro cafe right and i'm

0:12:15.040,0:12:18.240
and i'm and mine is commerce hero show

0:12:17.760,0:12:21.120
um

0:12:18.240,0:12:22.320
but it seems like you know like your

0:12:21.120,0:12:24.240
interests always

0:12:22.320,0:12:26.959
shift over time right like you had

0:12:24.240,0:12:30.160
magento stuff now cro like

0:12:26.959,0:12:32.240
i wonder if it makes more sense to just

0:12:30.160,0:12:33.440
do a podcast based on your name and then

0:12:32.240,0:12:34.240
you kind of have permission to do

0:12:33.440,0:12:36.959
whatever

0:12:34.240,0:12:38.880
you want to do the the benefit to like

0:12:36.959,0:12:40.079
having a clear niche for the podcast

0:12:38.880,0:12:42.000
it's clear

0:12:40.079,0:12:43.920
like what the value is in the podcast

0:12:42.000,0:12:46.240
though yeah

0:12:43.920,0:12:49.519
i i'm not sure if we already are at the

0:12:46.240,0:12:49.519
joe rogan level um

0:12:50.240,0:12:56.880
so we can do that but um yeah no i'm not

0:12:53.279,0:12:57.839
i don't i don't feel i'm not sure if i

0:12:56.880,0:13:01.360
would tune in

0:12:57.839,0:13:03.519
to the hidden podcast really

0:13:01.360,0:13:06.000
is that is it something is that

0:13:03.519,0:13:07.680
something i would want to listen to i i

0:13:06.000,0:13:09.279
don't know if it if it goes left and

0:13:07.680,0:13:11.760
right i don't know

0:13:09.279,0:13:13.680
if it has a specific topic i i feel

0:13:11.760,0:13:15.920
that's something that's that's

0:13:13.680,0:13:17.120
um that i would tune into if i'm

0:13:15.920,0:13:19.360
interested in that

0:13:17.120,0:13:20.560
uh but it seems too vague if it's just a

0:13:19.360,0:13:23.040
person

0:13:20.560,0:13:25.040
uh that's talking about random stuff and

0:13:23.040,0:13:27.279
i don't think i have the

0:13:25.040,0:13:29.440
um i'm that i don't have the personality

0:13:27.279,0:13:32.560
or the clouds to to pull that off

0:13:29.440,0:13:34.320
so you have to maybe if i maybe if i

0:13:32.560,0:13:36.480
get enough uh followers for the xero

0:13:34.320,0:13:36.880
cafe podcast and then just re-re-brand

0:13:36.480,0:13:39.199
that

0:13:36.880,0:13:40.399
to the hidden podcast then they have to

0:13:39.199,0:13:42.240
stick with it or

0:13:40.399,0:13:44.000
not but yeah that's the way to do it

0:13:42.240,0:13:44.240
maybe that's uh that could be an option

0:13:44.000,0:13:45.839
but

0:13:44.240,0:13:48.240
just starting from scratch with the

0:13:45.839,0:13:50.320
hidden podcast i don't see that

0:13:48.240,0:13:52.560
no so yeah so you have to be at a

0:13:50.320,0:13:55.360
certain level to pull it off is that

0:13:52.560,0:13:56.240
is that the is that i think so yeah i

0:13:55.360,0:13:59.199
think you have to be

0:13:56.240,0:14:01.279
some kind of famous person in some way

0:13:59.199,0:14:03.360
or the other uh to pull that off and get

0:14:01.279,0:14:04.720
thousands of followers instantly when

0:14:03.360,0:14:06.240
you when you publish a podcast that

0:14:04.720,0:14:10.560
doesn't happen with me

0:14:06.240,0:14:10.560
yeah but like i have to work for that

0:14:10.959,0:14:14.240
that's true that's true yeah i got to

0:14:12.959,0:14:17.680
figure that out

0:14:14.240,0:14:19.839
um but i saw you posted a picture of the

0:14:17.680,0:14:20.720
uh studio for the dutch e-commerce week

0:14:19.839,0:14:23.120
event

0:14:20.720,0:14:24.399
which looked pretty wild it's a really

0:14:23.120,0:14:27.600
cool looking uh

0:14:24.399,0:14:29.920
set that they had how did that go

0:14:27.600,0:14:31.519
yeah so um there was a well they called

0:14:29.920,0:14:32.639
it the dutch e-commerce week i think it

0:14:31.519,0:14:35.839
was only two days

0:14:32.639,0:14:37.440
or maybe two and a half three days uh

0:14:35.839,0:14:39.920
and they did it in old factory actually

0:14:37.440,0:14:42.800
we organized uh me magento

0:14:39.920,0:14:43.360
i think two three years ago there in the

0:14:42.800,0:14:46.720
same

0:14:43.360,0:14:50.160
same factory and um i think they already

0:14:46.720,0:14:52.320
had it uh they rented it uh before

0:14:50.160,0:14:54.560
i think a year ahead and then cove it

0:14:52.320,0:14:58.000
happened so they had the location anyway

0:14:54.560,0:15:00.160
yeah um and so they created this whole

0:14:58.000,0:15:01.199
show so it was now turned into an online

0:15:00.160,0:15:03.680
event

0:15:01.199,0:15:04.880
uh and i was involved uh two days uh

0:15:03.680,0:15:08.160
hosting it

0:15:04.880,0:15:10.000
and um i think yeah

0:15:08.160,0:15:12.400
i think what the production you need to

0:15:10.000,0:15:14.399
do your own podcast your hero yachts

0:15:12.400,0:15:16.959
[Laughter]

0:15:14.399,0:15:17.440
yeah it was no the the event was really

0:15:16.959,0:15:20.800
cool

0:15:17.440,0:15:23.519
it was uh but it's i do i mean it's

0:15:20.800,0:15:25.519
really hard to run uh to just copy an

0:15:23.519,0:15:26.480
offline event to an online event right i

0:15:25.519,0:15:29.839
mean right

0:15:26.480,0:15:31.680
just just i i just spoke to another uh

0:15:29.839,0:15:32.720
event organizer they wanted me involved

0:15:31.680,0:15:34.399
in an event in

0:15:32.720,0:15:35.759
december and they also copying it from

0:15:34.399,0:15:38.480
offline to online and the

0:15:35.759,0:15:39.199
event last week so they did have they

0:15:38.480,0:15:41.440
did

0:15:39.199,0:15:43.279
broadcast it so they had sessions the

0:15:41.440,0:15:45.120
the sessions they were pre-recorded but

0:15:43.279,0:15:45.839
they were set to schedule at a certain

0:15:45.120,0:15:47.839
time

0:15:45.839,0:15:49.199
and uh the speaker was actually there

0:15:47.839,0:15:51.680
online uh at the

0:15:49.199,0:15:54.000
at the recording loca at the location so

0:15:51.680,0:15:57.279
we could do a live q a an actual live q

0:15:54.000,0:15:58.720
a and even then audience participation

0:15:57.279,0:16:00.639
it's really hard to get people

0:15:58.720,0:16:01.759
if you're just sitting online you need

0:16:00.639,0:16:04.560
at least

0:16:01.759,0:16:05.040
100 people in a room before there

0:16:04.560,0:16:07.680
there's

0:16:05.040,0:16:09.360
some form of interaction energy yeah

0:16:07.680,0:16:11.360
yeah i think on the first day

0:16:09.360,0:16:12.639
on we got two two questions from the

0:16:11.360,0:16:15.759
audience five

0:16:12.639,0:16:18.240
six sessions two questions and

0:16:15.759,0:16:19.600
this is all in zoom chat rooms and

0:16:18.240,0:16:19.920
that's not a lot so i was talking to

0:16:19.600,0:16:21.519
this

0:16:19.920,0:16:23.440
organizer in december and what they want

0:16:21.519,0:16:24.720
to do they just say okay we just

0:16:23.440,0:16:27.360
pre-record everything

0:16:24.720,0:16:28.800
and on 9 a.m we push everything live and

0:16:27.360,0:16:32.240
everyone can just go

0:16:28.800,0:16:35.920
whatever watch in whatever order

0:16:32.240,0:16:36.959
and i think yeah that's an option but if

0:16:35.920,0:16:38.800
you want some

0:16:36.959,0:16:40.639
interaction i mean it's it's hard when

0:16:38.800,0:16:42.240
you do it step by step and actually

0:16:40.639,0:16:43.600
follow a program for two days

0:16:42.240,0:16:46.000
if you just push it online then it's

0:16:43.600,0:16:49.040
just like opening a youtube channel

0:16:46.000,0:16:50.639
i mean what's the and the added value

0:16:49.040,0:16:52.480
from events i don't know

0:16:50.639,0:16:54.880
what you're i mean you'll be very

0:16:52.480,0:16:58.160
selective about going to events

0:16:54.880,0:17:00.800
but for me the big part of the uh

0:16:58.160,0:17:02.639
added value of events is is the

0:17:00.800,0:17:03.600
connection you get with people and and

0:17:02.639,0:17:07.760
talking to people

0:17:03.600,0:17:08.559
yeah yeah i think about it a lot i don't

0:17:07.760,0:17:12.000
understand

0:17:08.559,0:17:14.000
how it's going to happen exactly that

0:17:12.000,0:17:15.199
everybody's trying to recreate the

0:17:14.000,0:17:16.799
in-person events

0:17:15.199,0:17:18.240
and trying different things did you see

0:17:16.799,0:17:21.679
the harvard uh

0:17:18.240,0:17:22.319
classroom set up i saw with all the

0:17:21.679,0:17:24.240
faces

0:17:22.319,0:17:26.000
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah i thought that

0:17:24.240,0:17:28.319
was a cool setup and it reminded me of a

0:17:26.000,0:17:29.840
tony robbins event that i saw

0:17:28.319,0:17:31.440
where they had a similar thing with a

0:17:29.840,0:17:34.000
really nice

0:17:31.440,0:17:34.640
studio and some great camera angles of

0:17:34.000,0:17:36.400
the like

0:17:34.640,0:17:38.240
presenter and then they had the wall of

0:17:36.400,0:17:42.160
participant faces

0:17:38.240,0:17:45.600
and um it feels like a that feels like a

0:17:42.160,0:17:48.000
a step improvement over whatever

0:17:45.600,0:17:48.960
current you know online conferences are

0:17:48.000,0:17:50.720
yeah um

0:17:48.960,0:17:52.000
but yeah i don't know how we're gonna

0:17:50.720,0:17:54.880
figure this out i mean i

0:17:52.000,0:17:55.280
i i think everybody's trying to recreate

0:17:54.880,0:17:57.679
that

0:17:55.280,0:17:59.360
in person feel but yeah you know yeah

0:17:57.679,0:17:59.679
like i said it's really hard if you to

0:17:59.360,0:18:01.200
get

0:17:59.679,0:18:02.960
interaction when you have these online

0:18:01.200,0:18:04.240
events and like you need at least one

0:18:02.960,0:18:05.039
well of course it really depends on the

0:18:04.240,0:18:06.480
audience but

0:18:05.039,0:18:08.160
for the event last week if we didn't

0:18:06.480,0:18:10.480
have 100 people in the room we could

0:18:08.160,0:18:11.919
forget about any audience any decent

0:18:10.480,0:18:15.120
audience interaction in

0:18:11.919,0:18:18.160
in the chat and um i mean with with

0:18:15.120,0:18:19.600
if you if you went to meetup events uh

0:18:18.160,0:18:21.440
you could you could easily have a

0:18:19.600,0:18:22.960
really good meetup event with just 10

0:18:21.440,0:18:25.039
people or five people

0:18:22.960,0:18:26.320
uh you're just sitting together uh

0:18:25.039,0:18:28.000
talking about a specific

0:18:26.320,0:18:31.200
subject that that's interesting to you

0:18:28.000,0:18:32.960
to you go about it for one two hours

0:18:31.200,0:18:34.880
uh you can you can leave a very

0:18:32.960,0:18:38.000
fulfilled and happy to know

0:18:34.880,0:18:40.000
uh five ten new friends and and maybe

0:18:38.000,0:18:42.000
knowing a bit more about the subject

0:18:40.000,0:18:43.600
with online events if you have 10 people

0:18:42.000,0:18:45.440
in the room nothing's gonna

0:18:43.600,0:18:47.120
nothing's gonna happen you won't

0:18:45.440,0:18:50.080
remember the session

0:18:47.120,0:18:50.960
uh you you won't know even who's in

0:18:50.080,0:18:52.559
there

0:18:50.960,0:18:54.840
there's no new connections that you're

0:18:52.559,0:18:57.440
that you're forming i think that's also

0:18:54.840,0:18:58.799
um going to be a big challenge with uh

0:18:57.440,0:19:00.160
with the magento community and the

0:18:58.799,0:19:01.600
magento association that's what we're

0:19:00.160,0:19:03.520
talking about also

0:19:01.600,0:19:04.799
uh internally and with uh with the

0:19:03.520,0:19:07.600
working groups

0:19:04.799,0:19:08.000
we need to figure out we need to prepare

0:19:07.600,0:19:11.679
for

0:19:08.000,0:19:12.880
a 2021 where we don't have uh offline

0:19:11.679,0:19:15.600
events

0:19:12.880,0:19:16.720
and of course that's um that's a big

0:19:15.600,0:19:19.360
switch from what we've

0:19:16.720,0:19:20.640
what we already done how can we still

0:19:19.360,0:19:23.200
grasp the the the

0:19:20.640,0:19:24.080
magento feeling that we've created since

0:19:23.200,0:19:26.720
2008

0:19:24.080,0:19:27.200
how on earth are we going to make that

0:19:26.720,0:19:29.039
happen

0:19:27.200,0:19:30.240
online of course we can get way more

0:19:29.039,0:19:32.320
people uh online

0:19:30.240,0:19:33.600
with with the events happening with me

0:19:32.320,0:19:36.799
magento new york and

0:19:33.600,0:19:37.120
magento uk they attract way more people

0:19:36.799,0:19:38.960
from

0:19:37.120,0:19:40.480
from outside that would otherwise never

0:19:38.960,0:19:42.559
have joined those events

0:19:40.480,0:19:44.160
but still are they forming those long

0:19:42.559,0:19:46.640
lasting connections

0:19:44.160,0:19:48.080
uh that that people were forming

0:19:46.640,0:19:50.000
previously that's something we need to

0:19:48.080,0:19:52.240
need to figure out i thought the

0:19:50.000,0:19:55.600
networking event was pretty cool or the

0:19:52.240,0:19:58.799
networking feature on the hop-in um

0:19:55.600,0:20:01.679
was pretty cool i i used it uh for the

0:19:58.799,0:20:02.480
developer yeah i thought it was neat it

0:20:01.679,0:20:05.679
was to me

0:20:02.480,0:20:07.600
it was it felt like the closest thing um

0:20:05.679,0:20:08.880
to in-person networking that i had

0:20:07.600,0:20:11.520
experienced

0:20:08.880,0:20:13.039
um something about the spontaneity of it

0:20:11.520,0:20:14.640
the randomness of it and then

0:20:13.039,0:20:16.480
i loved how it was time boxed to like

0:20:14.640,0:20:17.200
five minutes so it's like you're in and

0:20:16.480,0:20:18.840
you're out

0:20:17.200,0:20:20.960
you know there's like this constant

0:20:18.840,0:20:22.880
motion um

0:20:20.960,0:20:24.080
but then somebody told me that only like

0:20:22.880,0:20:27.039
three percent of people

0:20:24.080,0:20:29.200
use that feature or something like that

0:20:27.039,0:20:32.320
i don't know the numbers but

0:20:29.200,0:20:34.000
not the majority that's not true

0:20:32.320,0:20:35.679
yeah but and that's what i mean it's

0:20:34.000,0:20:38.159
really hard to get people

0:20:35.679,0:20:38.880
uh incentivized to do so when i mean if

0:20:38.159,0:20:40.400
you're offline

0:20:38.880,0:20:41.840
an offline event you're standing there

0:20:40.400,0:20:43.360
anyway might as well talk to a couple of

0:20:41.840,0:20:44.480
people or someone's talking to you at

0:20:43.360,0:20:46.559
the lunch table

0:20:44.480,0:20:47.679
it's easier to get that going than when

0:20:46.559,0:20:49.679
people are

0:20:47.679,0:20:50.880
there's a break online okay then i move

0:20:49.679,0:20:53.120
away from my screen

0:20:50.880,0:20:55.440
go to the toilet uh get a drink whatever

0:20:53.120,0:20:58.799
and you're not at the conference anymore

0:20:55.440,0:21:00.840
it's really hard to do that and

0:20:58.799,0:21:03.280
it's it's a completely different

0:21:00.840,0:21:05.280
challenge and that we need to uh

0:21:03.280,0:21:06.960
yeah well i think you're just the person

0:21:05.280,0:21:08.320
to figure that out you know because like

0:21:06.960,0:21:11.679
you've been

0:21:08.320,0:21:12.799
doing events for so long like if anybody

0:21:11.679,0:21:16.799
can figure it out

0:21:12.799,0:21:18.640
it's you well we have uh

0:21:16.799,0:21:20.720
there's a lot of smart people uh

0:21:18.640,0:21:21.679
involved including uh many other

0:21:20.720,0:21:23.360
organizers so

0:21:21.679,0:21:25.360
um we need to figure this out together

0:21:23.360,0:21:28.799
and of course there are also a lot of

0:21:25.360,0:21:30.559
um magento uh event organizers

0:21:28.799,0:21:31.919
uh outside of the board that are

0:21:30.559,0:21:33.600
involved so

0:21:31.919,0:21:35.120
we'll figure it out definitely and of

0:21:33.600,0:21:36.080
course we're already trying it right i

0:21:35.120,0:21:38.240
mean it's not like

0:21:36.080,0:21:40.159
we're sitting still we've already uh got

0:21:38.240,0:21:41.039
some experience this year with uh online

0:21:40.159,0:21:44.640
events

0:21:41.039,0:21:48.720
uh so uh it's it's improving how are you

0:21:44.640,0:21:52.000
let's say yourself personally replacing

0:21:48.720,0:21:54.640
um that like need for

0:21:52.000,0:21:56.159
socializing or networking at events that

0:21:54.640,0:21:59.520
you would have done in person

0:21:56.159,0:22:01.120
like how are you sort of replacing that

0:21:59.520,0:22:02.640
in your own life if that makes sense

0:22:01.120,0:22:04.000
like are you just

0:22:02.640,0:22:06.240
well i have a podcast now have you heard

0:22:04.000,0:22:06.240
of it

0:22:06.320,0:22:10.480
and is that it's you know what's funny

0:22:08.480,0:22:13.919
is that i feel like for me

0:22:10.480,0:22:14.880
the podcast i'm doing are a a way that

0:22:13.919,0:22:18.159
i'm

0:22:14.880,0:22:19.120
um fulfilling that actually that need to

0:22:18.159,0:22:20.880
socialize

0:22:19.120,0:22:22.159
i i really do yeah for me too yeah

0:22:20.880,0:22:24.240
definitely so i didn't start

0:22:22.159,0:22:26.960
so i started with a stereography podcast

0:22:24.240,0:22:28.880
in 2019 um

0:22:26.960,0:22:30.640
blissfully unaware of what's uh what was

0:22:28.880,0:22:32.799
going to happen in uh this year

0:22:30.640,0:22:35.120
uh but no it's a great way i think and

0:22:32.799,0:22:37.360
also for for going to events and and

0:22:35.120,0:22:39.679
uh speaking at events for me there was

0:22:37.360,0:22:42.720
always a great way

0:22:39.679,0:22:45.039
to try to expand my knowledge and deep

0:22:42.720,0:22:47.600
dive into a specific topic

0:22:45.039,0:22:49.120
i've regularly signed up for conferences

0:22:47.600,0:22:50.720
to speak there

0:22:49.120,0:22:52.320
without having a presentation just say

0:22:50.720,0:22:53.440
oh i want to know more about this topic

0:22:52.320,0:22:55.440
let's see if they

0:22:53.440,0:22:57.520
let me speak about it then oh [ __ ] and

0:22:55.440,0:23:00.720
then you go learn about it

0:22:57.520,0:23:01.440
yeah then you then you have the pressure

0:23:00.720,0:23:04.240
of actually

0:23:01.440,0:23:05.200
trying to uh uh make some make some

0:23:04.240,0:23:07.440
sense

0:23:05.200,0:23:08.320
yeah try to teach a teacher about it but

0:23:07.440,0:23:10.400
now the podcast is

0:23:08.320,0:23:11.520
actually it is a great replacement but i

0:23:10.400,0:23:13.280
don't think

0:23:11.520,0:23:14.960
in general that's a great tip for

0:23:13.280,0:23:17.919
everyone going to conferences

0:23:14.960,0:23:19.440
uh just to start a podcast that might

0:23:17.919,0:23:22.880
not that might not make sense

0:23:19.440,0:23:25.600
yeah but i feel i'm much more active

0:23:22.880,0:23:27.039
on linkedin specifically uh not

0:23:25.600,0:23:27.840
necessarily on the public side but on

0:23:27.039,0:23:29.840
the

0:23:27.840,0:23:31.520
some some groups and uh reaching out to

0:23:29.840,0:23:34.080
people um

0:23:31.520,0:23:34.799
having one-on-one conversations actively

0:23:34.080,0:23:37.120
um

0:23:34.799,0:23:39.280
meeting up with people through through

0:23:37.120,0:23:42.159
uh zoom or whatever tool you're using

0:23:39.280,0:23:42.630
skype if you if you're ancient like like

0:23:42.159,0:23:44.159
caleb

0:23:42.630,0:23:48.840
[Laughter]

0:23:44.159,0:23:51.840
it has the best quality it has the best

0:23:48.840,0:23:51.840
quality

0:23:52.799,0:23:56.640
so it allows you to deep dive into a

0:23:55.520,0:23:59.360
topic with a

0:23:56.640,0:24:00.240
specific person right uh which is really

0:23:59.360,0:24:04.240
nice

0:24:00.240,0:24:06.000
um and and and just um

0:24:04.240,0:24:07.360
and it's just a one-on-one conversation

0:24:06.000,0:24:09.760
right and especially um

0:24:07.360,0:24:11.520
depends on the the type of podcast or

0:24:09.760,0:24:14.000
show you might be running

0:24:11.520,0:24:15.679
uh but for for the for the podcast i

0:24:14.000,0:24:16.480
mean it's just a one-on-one conversation

0:24:15.679,0:24:18.640
that we have

0:24:16.480,0:24:20.400
right that we added afterwards uh to to

0:24:18.640,0:24:21.840
get rid of all the awkward silences and

0:24:20.400,0:24:24.640
the arms and the eyes and and

0:24:21.840,0:24:25.039
all the other awkward stuff uh but it's

0:24:24.640,0:24:27.279
just

0:24:25.039,0:24:29.279
um we don't edit it that much and it's

0:24:27.279,0:24:31.440
just a conversation that we have

0:24:29.279,0:24:33.039
yeah trying to to help each other

0:24:31.440,0:24:36.320
basically we're both

0:24:33.039,0:24:39.279
uh in the zero uh industry uh uh

0:24:36.320,0:24:41.039
for for me my guests and uh trying

0:24:39.279,0:24:42.559
trying to help each other out and

0:24:41.039,0:24:44.240
uh giving each other sharing some

0:24:42.559,0:24:45.360
knowledge there and that really helps

0:24:44.240,0:24:47.200
and i i can

0:24:45.360,0:24:49.200
fully imagine that really helps other

0:24:47.200,0:24:50.960
podcasters as well yeah

0:24:49.200,0:24:53.279
yeah i think that it's funny because i

0:24:50.960,0:24:56.559
think we have this um

0:24:53.279,0:24:58.240
tendency to say okay let's recreate this

0:24:56.559,0:24:59.760
thing where it's an in-person event and

0:24:58.240,0:25:01.440
there's a hallway and there's you're

0:24:59.760,0:25:02.400
seeing a bunch of people and it's a

0:25:01.440,0:25:04.480
group

0:25:02.400,0:25:06.240
and then but i think i almost think the

0:25:04.480,0:25:08.000
one-on-one whether it's you're doing a

0:25:06.240,0:25:10.880
podcast or maybe you're using

0:25:08.000,0:25:11.840
lunch club um or something like that to

0:25:10.880,0:25:14.000
match you up with

0:25:11.840,0:25:15.760
one-on-one video calls or one-on-one

0:25:14.000,0:25:17.200
non-video calls or whatever

0:25:15.760,0:25:19.679
like i think there's something about

0:25:17.200,0:25:23.200
this one-on-one um

0:25:19.679,0:25:26.320
conversation thing that maybe is the way

0:25:23.200,0:25:27.200
that uh that networking dynamic can

0:25:26.320,0:25:29.919
scale

0:25:27.200,0:25:31.679
um in kind of a remote world so like

0:25:29.919,0:25:32.640
maybe there is no way to actually

0:25:31.679,0:25:35.200
recreate

0:25:32.640,0:25:35.679
the event in the sense of a group of

0:25:35.200,0:25:38.880
people

0:25:35.679,0:25:41.039
all in one space at the same time

0:25:38.880,0:25:43.520
maybe it's more about creating more of

0:25:41.039,0:25:45.039
these individual connections

0:25:43.520,0:25:46.559
yeah it feels very forced when when you

0:25:45.039,0:25:48.720
have these conferences conference

0:25:46.559,0:25:49.440
software that tries to emulate visualize

0:25:48.720,0:25:52.480
a booth

0:25:49.440,0:25:53.919
and visualize yeah it's like okay

0:25:52.480,0:25:57.200
let's see i see what you're trying to do

0:25:53.919,0:25:59.039
but it's not necessarily yeah

0:25:57.200,0:26:00.799
how are you how are you using linkedin

0:25:59.039,0:26:02.320
you mentioned some private groups and

0:26:00.799,0:26:04.559
things like that like what are

0:26:02.320,0:26:05.679
what are some ways that you're using

0:26:04.559,0:26:09.440
that um

0:26:05.679,0:26:12.159
well general discussions with with peers

0:26:09.440,0:26:12.880
and then discussing um things we

0:26:12.159,0:26:16.240
encounter

0:26:12.880,0:26:18.880
um just a silly example uh

0:26:16.240,0:26:20.080
i think two two three weeks ago google

0:26:18.880,0:26:22.880
analytics was uh

0:26:20.080,0:26:25.120
has had a new version released which

0:26:22.880,0:26:27.200
everyone agrees on is very much uh

0:26:25.120,0:26:29.760
uh in beta and should not have been

0:26:27.200,0:26:32.480
released at all and should not be

0:26:29.760,0:26:33.679
um the the recommended version for for

0:26:32.480,0:26:36.640
new webshops

0:26:33.679,0:26:37.279
um and talking about those things and

0:26:36.640,0:26:41.840
saying hey

0:26:37.279,0:26:42.480
[ __ ] i want to i want to install events

0:26:41.840,0:26:43.919
or

0:26:42.480,0:26:45.600
implement events but i have no idea

0:26:43.919,0:26:47.919
there's no there's no button

0:26:45.600,0:26:48.799
or i'm looking for this data where my

0:26:47.919,0:26:51.279
data go

0:26:48.799,0:26:52.000
it should be here i can find it yeah

0:26:51.279,0:26:54.159
helping each other

0:26:52.000,0:26:55.039
out that way that really helps and would

0:26:54.159,0:26:57.120
definitely recommend

0:26:55.039,0:26:58.159
so like i said podcasting probably

0:26:57.120,0:27:00.320
doesn't make sense for

0:26:58.159,0:27:02.240
anyone listening just to start a podcast

0:27:00.320,0:27:02.960
just just to get into contact with

0:27:02.240,0:27:05.039
people

0:27:02.960,0:27:06.080
but just go out on those platforms

0:27:05.039,0:27:08.159
whether it's linkedin

0:27:06.080,0:27:09.200
or facebook or or slack whatever you're

0:27:08.159,0:27:11.840
comfortable with

0:27:09.200,0:27:14.000
and just well start with reading start

0:27:11.840,0:27:15.919
with start helping people and

0:27:14.000,0:27:18.320
um i think it's really fulfilling and

0:27:15.919,0:27:20.559
you don't necessarily have to

0:27:18.320,0:27:22.080
be helped with i mean if you if you just

0:27:20.559,0:27:24.559
start asking questions

0:27:22.080,0:27:26.000
uh when you have a problem that's not

0:27:24.559,0:27:27.600
probably gonna be the best experience

0:27:26.000,0:27:29.520
but for me it's already very fulfilling

0:27:27.600,0:27:30.960
if i just can help someone out

0:27:29.520,0:27:33.440
saying oh you need to be here or you

0:27:30.960,0:27:34.000
need to be there and have a whatsapp

0:27:33.440,0:27:37.200
group

0:27:34.000,0:27:38.960
with uh some dutch zero people um

0:27:37.200,0:27:40.399
and they there's oh i saw this

0:27:38.960,0:27:42.799
interesting presentation where can i

0:27:40.399,0:27:47.120
find it and then send them a link and

0:27:42.799,0:27:49.039
that already makes me happy yeah and um

0:27:47.120,0:27:50.640
yeah that's that's that's the way

0:27:49.039,0:27:52.000
networking works continuously also

0:27:50.640,0:27:54.240
outside events right right

0:27:52.000,0:27:55.039
and when it comes to like private groups

0:27:54.240,0:27:57.440
versus like

0:27:55.039,0:27:59.360
public stuff are you getting a lot of

0:27:57.440,0:28:00.960
value from like private group linkedin

0:27:59.360,0:28:05.840
groups or slack or whatever

0:28:00.960,0:28:05.840
um versus more public social media

0:28:06.640,0:28:12.480
um i think that's hard to quantify

0:28:10.159,0:28:13.279
if one is larger a little bit more value

0:28:12.480,0:28:16.880
than the other

0:28:13.279,0:28:18.880
yeah um i mean this podcast

0:28:16.880,0:28:20.559
group is on on facebook that's a private

0:28:18.880,0:28:21.760
group but that's by design so it's

0:28:20.559,0:28:24.159
private but everyone

0:28:21.760,0:28:26.640
can actually enter but it's it's

0:28:24.159,0:28:30.960
scarcity right so it's a private group

0:28:26.640,0:28:32.640
okay that's how those things work

0:28:30.960,0:28:34.000
yeah now i think the private group thing

0:28:32.640,0:28:35.279
is interesting because i think it can

0:28:34.000,0:28:36.880
create

0:28:35.279,0:28:39.120
an environment where people can maybe

0:28:36.880,0:28:41.760
share a little more openly or whatever

0:28:39.120,0:28:43.440
and yeah so for for the facebook group

0:28:41.760,0:28:44.799
that we have is like 500 people so it's

0:28:43.440,0:28:46.720
not really private uh

0:28:44.799,0:28:48.159
private there but for for some of the

0:28:46.720,0:28:51.039
whatsapp groups i mean uh

0:28:48.159,0:28:52.480
there's there's a couple of them it's

0:28:51.039,0:28:54.720
like 20 people

0:28:52.480,0:28:55.600
and then you can you they then you can

0:28:54.720,0:28:58.640
ask the questions

0:28:55.600,0:29:01.600
uh that people don't necessarily want to

0:28:58.640,0:29:03.039
to throw on twitter or or facebook or

0:29:01.600,0:29:04.720
anywhere publicly

0:29:03.039,0:29:07.200
asking about those specific things that

0:29:04.720,0:29:08.399
they're i'm wondering how this works and

0:29:07.200,0:29:09.919
wondering how that works they don't

0:29:08.399,0:29:12.080
necessarily want other people to see

0:29:09.919,0:29:12.720
that you don't know how xyz works for

0:29:12.080,0:29:14.880
your employee

0:29:12.720,0:29:16.880
employer to see they actually don't know

0:29:14.880,0:29:18.880
how that tool works or

0:29:16.880,0:29:20.480
those kind of things i think most

0:29:18.880,0:29:21.120
employers don't necessarily care they're

0:29:20.480,0:29:22.480
already

0:29:21.120,0:29:24.240
they will be happy if you if you're

0:29:22.480,0:29:26.480
reaching out right but

0:29:24.240,0:29:27.600
not everyone is is uh comfortable doing

0:29:26.480,0:29:31.679
that and that's fine yeah

0:29:27.600,0:29:34.159
and um and and it it gives you some

0:29:31.679,0:29:35.200
uh group feel some some unity feel as

0:29:34.159,0:29:38.399
childini would say

0:29:35.200,0:29:39.919
uh some some group you belong to and

0:29:38.399,0:29:40.640
that you feel comfortable with uh

0:29:39.919,0:29:44.080
sharing that

0:29:40.640,0:29:44.799
um that information with and i think

0:29:44.080,0:29:46.880
it's it's

0:29:44.799,0:29:48.159
um it definitely helped if you i mean i

0:29:46.880,0:29:50.720
was going to conferences

0:29:48.159,0:29:52.480
uh at least twice a month before uh the

0:29:50.720,0:29:55.039
whole lockdowns and whatever

0:29:52.480,0:29:55.760
um so you need to replace that with uh

0:29:55.039,0:29:57.440
with with

0:29:55.760,0:29:59.120
something i mean maybe not for everyone

0:29:57.440,0:29:59.679
but yeah at least for me that that works

0:29:59.120,0:30:02.159
really well

0:29:59.679,0:30:03.919
yeah you mentioned chaldini i've heard a

0:30:02.159,0:30:06.840
bit about him he's like the

0:30:03.919,0:30:08.399
godfather of like persuasion basically

0:30:06.840,0:30:11.440
right

0:30:08.399,0:30:14.880
yeah a little bit uh so well if

0:30:11.440,0:30:15.679
so the the the real godfather of of zero

0:30:14.880,0:30:19.200
i think is

0:30:15.679,0:30:20.240
daniel carmon um he's uh he actually won

0:30:19.200,0:30:23.600
a nobel prize for

0:30:20.240,0:30:24.960
for his work uh but but children is

0:30:23.600,0:30:28.159
definitely one of the well

0:30:24.960,0:30:28.720
uh more well-known uh brands out there i

0:30:28.159,0:30:31.600
might say

0:30:28.720,0:30:35.200
uh on persuasion uh he did a meta

0:30:31.600,0:30:37.919
research i think in 1984-85 he

0:30:35.200,0:30:39.440
published his book he also did some uh

0:30:37.919,0:30:41.600
some research himself of course but

0:30:39.440,0:30:42.799
he did a meta research collecting all

0:30:41.600,0:30:46.159
kinds of

0:30:42.799,0:30:50.000
research studies and tried to figure out

0:30:46.159,0:30:53.360
what are the most um persuasive

0:30:50.000,0:30:55.840
persuasive principles out there um

0:30:53.360,0:30:56.880
uh that we are influenced by when buying

0:30:55.840,0:30:59.120
stuff

0:30:56.880,0:31:00.080
and um so his top six is basically his

0:30:59.120,0:31:02.399
first book

0:31:00.080,0:31:04.000
and then a couple of years ago he um i

0:31:02.399,0:31:07.039
think he needed some money so he brought

0:31:04.000,0:31:08.240
out a second book with uh principle

0:31:07.039,0:31:11.919
number seven

0:31:08.240,0:31:13.440
which is unity interesting i saw you did

0:31:11.919,0:31:16.799
an interview with a guy

0:31:13.440,0:31:18.960
a boss something who

0:31:16.799,0:31:20.399
wrote a book in conjunction with him or

0:31:18.960,0:31:22.480
something like that recently

0:31:20.399,0:31:23.519
yeah so uh well not in conjunction with

0:31:22.480,0:31:26.000
him uh they

0:31:23.519,0:31:27.200
uh did a book presentation so they wrote

0:31:26.000,0:31:29.440
a book in dutch and

0:31:27.200,0:31:31.279
which they released half a year ago and

0:31:29.440,0:31:32.880
last month they released the english

0:31:31.279,0:31:33.760
version of this book because it was so

0:31:32.880,0:31:35.200
successful

0:31:33.760,0:31:37.039
and the english version of the book

0:31:35.200,0:31:39.440
which is called online influence

0:31:37.039,0:31:40.559
uh they released that together in a

0:31:39.440,0:31:43.360
webinar together with

0:31:40.559,0:31:44.880
gildini so of course they were

0:31:43.360,0:31:48.080
rightfully so very proud that

0:31:44.880,0:31:48.720
they could get him uh to uh to uh join

0:31:48.080,0:31:51.039
them on this

0:31:48.720,0:31:51.760
uh on this webinar yeah yeah he's kind

0:31:51.039,0:31:54.000
of a big deal

0:31:51.760,0:31:55.760
so what's the unity what is that unity

0:31:54.000,0:31:57.760
principle

0:31:55.760,0:31:58.880
uh unity is but so it's it's like

0:31:57.760,0:32:01.440
belonging

0:31:58.880,0:32:01.919
right so it's something you can you can

0:32:01.440,0:32:05.840
uh

0:32:01.919,0:32:08.399
evoke in people uh when when you want to

0:32:05.840,0:32:09.519
belong to a group so unity and

0:32:08.399,0:32:10.960
especially unity

0:32:09.519,0:32:13.279
it's not necessarily about belonging to

0:32:10.960,0:32:15.679
one group it's also about

0:32:13.279,0:32:16.799
putting yourself against another group

0:32:15.679,0:32:18.480
uh which in the

0:32:16.799,0:32:19.840
political arena these days might sound

0:32:18.480,0:32:21.919
familiar but

0:32:19.840,0:32:24.080
let's let's leave it let's let's keep it

0:32:21.919,0:32:26.080
civil let's say you have cat owners

0:32:24.080,0:32:27.919
versus dog owners or

0:32:26.080,0:32:30.080
dog people versus cat people my blood

0:32:27.919,0:32:33.200
pressure is immediately much lower

0:32:30.080,0:32:34.799
thank you exactly but that's

0:32:33.200,0:32:37.200
that's something you can you can imagine

0:32:34.799,0:32:41.200
right you you can imagine people

0:32:37.200,0:32:42.960
uh being very

0:32:41.200,0:32:44.880
active in in one area and not

0:32:42.960,0:32:47.360
necessarily in the other and you can

0:32:44.880,0:32:48.720
beat them uh in in a funny way to

0:32:47.360,0:32:51.279
towards you

0:32:48.720,0:32:53.200
against each other and in that way

0:32:51.279,0:32:55.120
create some some group feeling

0:32:53.200,0:32:56.880
that's something we all do and we all we

0:32:55.120,0:32:59.440
all are part of groups right

0:32:56.880,0:33:01.600
um i mean with the magento association

0:32:59.440,0:33:04.080
we are there for magento users

0:33:01.600,0:33:05.760
uh with the podcast i'm there for ceo

0:33:04.080,0:33:07.600
specialist so there are all these kinds

0:33:05.760,0:33:09.279
of ways of groups uh

0:33:07.600,0:33:11.039
you'll you'll have in everyday life

0:33:09.279,0:33:13.840
you'll probably belong to

0:33:11.039,0:33:14.799
dozens of them and that's what unity

0:33:13.840,0:33:17.039
happy decent

0:33:14.799,0:33:20.159
half decent developers group i'm in a

0:33:17.039,0:33:22.320
half decent podcasters group

0:33:20.159,0:33:24.240
i'm actually you know i have been a shed

0:33:22.320,0:33:26.799
owners group

0:33:24.240,0:33:26.799
facebook

0:33:27.519,0:33:30.880
there you go so you can you can exchange

0:33:30.320,0:33:33.360
tips on

0:33:30.880,0:33:35.519
which plywood to use which uh nails to

0:33:33.360,0:33:37.360
use

0:33:35.519,0:33:38.040
what so what do you do in winter when

0:33:37.360,0:33:39.120
it's too cold

0:33:38.040,0:33:42.720
[Music]

0:33:39.120,0:33:43.200
exactly yeah okay [ __ ] we didn't think

0:33:42.720,0:33:45.519
of that

0:33:43.200,0:33:47.039
okay we'll just go back into the house

0:33:45.519,0:33:50.080
okay

0:33:47.039,0:33:53.279
thanks dream ruined yeah yeah

0:33:50.080,0:33:56.720
it did it ruined my dream oh

0:33:53.279,0:33:58.159
man so uh so what's what is the deal

0:33:56.720,0:33:58.640
with this google analytics three and

0:33:58.159,0:34:00.240
four

0:33:58.640,0:34:02.559
if you get into some of the some of the

0:34:00.240,0:34:06.640
technical issues here

0:34:02.559,0:34:09.200
i need a drink for that

0:34:06.640,0:34:10.240
this this is the e commercial like uh

0:34:09.200,0:34:12.320
podcast right

0:34:10.240,0:34:14.560
yeah i thought that looked like i i

0:34:12.320,0:34:15.839
automatically felt like transported to

0:34:14.560,0:34:19.119
the e-commerce online

0:34:15.839,0:34:20.879
podcast just by yeah i need to um

0:34:19.119,0:34:22.639
i need to improve my studio for that a

0:34:20.879,0:34:25.679
bit but um

0:34:22.639,0:34:29.839
now so um well i think

0:34:25.679,0:34:33.200
google uh developed a new version of

0:34:29.839,0:34:36.320
of analytics which is uh much

0:34:33.200,0:34:38.399
better in in principle i mean it's no

0:34:36.320,0:34:40.399
no longer based on just uh page views

0:34:38.399,0:34:41.520
everything is an event which is uh much

0:34:40.399,0:34:43.839
better i think

0:34:41.520,0:34:45.919
uh but it's very much beta it doesn't it

0:34:43.839,0:34:47.440
doesn't match the functionality

0:34:45.919,0:34:50.240
that's uh that is in google analytics

0:34:47.440,0:34:51.359
three uh it feels a bit if if this is

0:34:50.240,0:34:53.359
the current state that are

0:34:51.359,0:34:56.560
they're trying to keep it in it feels

0:34:53.359,0:34:59.119
like google analytics four needs to

0:34:56.560,0:35:01.040
uh actually sell bigquery because

0:34:59.119,0:35:04.160
without bigquery google analytics four

0:35:01.040,0:35:05.920
is not really usable right now

0:35:04.160,0:35:08.000
i'm not sure if that's the idea behind

0:35:05.920,0:35:08.000
it

0:35:08.400,0:35:11.839
i'm not sure i know what big query is

0:35:10.720,0:35:15.119
it's basically

0:35:11.839,0:35:16.800
you can you can use it

0:35:15.119,0:35:18.960
or put all your google analytics for

0:35:16.800,0:35:19.280
data or 3d data or whatever data you

0:35:18.960,0:35:22.960
have

0:35:19.280,0:35:26.680
in a big database and use bigquery to

0:35:22.960,0:35:28.960
query it okay so it's just like

0:35:26.680,0:35:31.440
[Laughter]

0:35:28.960,0:35:32.320
a really flexible like query engine i

0:35:31.440,0:35:34.880
guess yeah

0:35:32.320,0:35:36.240
yeah and uh where i mean google is a

0:35:34.880,0:35:38.480
really important product for google

0:35:36.240,0:35:40.160
right i mean it's uh it's it's free

0:35:38.480,0:35:41.599
uh but it's basically there to sell

0:35:40.160,0:35:44.240
google adwords

0:35:41.599,0:35:45.920
uh that's why they originally uh bought

0:35:44.240,0:35:49.119
urchin the the analytics

0:35:45.920,0:35:50.400
software and um and that that's why they

0:35:49.119,0:35:51.599
kept improving it and that's really

0:35:50.400,0:35:54.240
important tool

0:35:51.599,0:35:55.599
um to keep improving i mean like i said

0:35:54.240,0:35:57.200
it's important that you have multiple

0:35:55.599,0:35:58.400
tools but google is it's free and

0:35:57.200,0:35:59.520
everyone's having it so it's really

0:35:58.400,0:36:01.839
important tool

0:35:59.520,0:36:02.640
uh for many xero people out there to get

0:36:01.839,0:36:04.960
analytics

0:36:02.640,0:36:05.920
to see how things are going to evaluate

0:36:04.960,0:36:09.200
uh

0:36:05.920,0:36:10.560
data uh evaluate a b test uh

0:36:09.200,0:36:12.640
see where people are getting stuck so

0:36:10.560,0:36:15.040
it's an important tool in that sense

0:36:12.640,0:36:16.880
and it was a bit weird so two weeks ago

0:36:15.040,0:36:19.760
two or three weeks ago

0:36:16.880,0:36:20.400
they uh they said it was out of beta and

0:36:19.760,0:36:22.240
and now

0:36:20.400,0:36:23.920
basically they recommend it for for new

0:36:22.240,0:36:26.960
installations but yeah

0:36:23.920,0:36:28.960
a lot of people don't don't necessarily

0:36:26.960,0:36:30.400
agree with that statement but so like

0:36:28.960,0:36:31.119
what problems are you running into with

0:36:30.400,0:36:34.480
it is it like

0:36:31.119,0:36:36.720
tracking stuff incorrectly or

0:36:34.480,0:36:38.000
uh not necessarily incorrectly but a lot

0:36:36.720,0:36:40.720
of stuff that you could do in

0:36:38.000,0:36:41.599
google analytics 3 that you cannot do in

0:36:40.720,0:36:43.520
google analytics

0:36:41.599,0:36:45.599
for just just in the interface so that

0:36:43.520,0:36:48.160
the underlying data is there

0:36:45.599,0:36:50.400
but the interface is is very uh immature

0:36:48.160,0:36:53.440
right now so there's uh

0:36:50.400,0:36:56.079
it's it's harder to do certain stuff

0:36:53.440,0:36:57.839
uh it's harder i i find it harder to to

0:36:56.079,0:36:59.920
add events for example if you just

0:36:57.839,0:37:00.880
for example with uh with a stereo clip

0:36:59.920,0:37:02.720
website

0:37:00.880,0:37:04.079
uh you want to i want to have an event i

0:37:02.720,0:37:06.320
don't i'm not sending anything

0:37:04.079,0:37:08.000
so i want to uh have an event when

0:37:06.320,0:37:11.760
someone hits the play button or

0:37:08.000,0:37:12.880
someone hits the the the spotify button

0:37:11.760,0:37:14.160
to subscribe

0:37:12.880,0:37:15.680
and that's something i want to know and

0:37:14.160,0:37:17.200
that's something i want to track and it

0:37:15.680,0:37:21.040
was actually harder to do

0:37:17.200,0:37:23.680
in uh in ga4 than in ga3 and then it's

0:37:21.040,0:37:25.440
yeah is it harder and then the report

0:37:23.680,0:37:26.480
and the reporting the basic reporting is

0:37:25.440,0:37:29.200
a bit better

0:37:26.480,0:37:30.560
uh because it's all all events based and

0:37:29.200,0:37:32.800
previously

0:37:30.560,0:37:34.640
um it was like a little combination of

0:37:32.800,0:37:36.560
page views and events

0:37:34.640,0:37:38.400
and then yes yeah and that pageview is

0:37:36.560,0:37:40.480
now an event

0:37:38.400,0:37:42.400
so it's more just like any other event

0:37:40.480,0:37:45.680
so yeah yeah yeah

0:37:42.400,0:37:47.520
nice so what about webflow how how is it

0:37:45.680,0:37:50.320
going with webflow i know you're a

0:37:47.520,0:37:54.079
full-on no code developer these days

0:37:50.320,0:37:56.400
um i had i had used it and and really

0:37:54.079,0:37:59.599
liked it but i sort of ran into some

0:37:56.400,0:38:02.079
snags with like the cms stuff and

0:37:59.599,0:38:03.680
just some limitations but sorry what

0:38:02.079,0:38:06.320
were you gonna say

0:38:03.680,0:38:09.599
well i want to clarify that i i i was

0:38:06.320,0:38:09.599
never a code developer

0:38:11.520,0:38:15.599
i'm just a psychologist so you're always

0:38:14.160,0:38:17.359
yeah you always clarify that

0:38:15.599,0:38:19.040
like because especially in magento

0:38:17.359,0:38:20.000
circles people will start talking about

0:38:19.040,0:38:21.920
something to be like

0:38:20.000,0:38:23.200
i'm not a developer yeah but i mean with

0:38:21.920,0:38:24.960
magenta i've been involved with

0:38:23.200,0:38:26.400
since 2008 and people automatically

0:38:24.960,0:38:28.000
assumed especially at least here in the

0:38:26.400,0:38:28.880
netherlands yeah always assumed that i

0:38:28.000,0:38:30.960
was a developer

0:38:28.880,0:38:32.880
yeah yeah because i organized those

0:38:30.960,0:38:36.160
events i uh i started

0:38:32.880,0:38:39.119
the cento uh everyone in magento

0:38:36.160,0:38:40.160
knew me yeah uh and everyone assumes i'm

0:38:39.119,0:38:42.079
a developer so

0:38:40.160,0:38:44.079
i i feel like i need to clarify this

0:38:42.079,0:38:46.400
yeah

0:38:44.079,0:38:47.760
just to set set things uh straight yeah

0:38:46.400,0:38:51.359
yeah yeah

0:38:47.760,0:38:53.599
but but so i've been using it

0:38:51.359,0:38:54.480
i've been using it uh for three years

0:38:53.599,0:38:56.560
now i think

0:38:54.480,0:38:58.480
for a couple of websites yeah i really

0:38:56.560,0:38:59.599
like it i mean it's a relatively easy

0:38:58.480,0:39:02.240
way

0:38:59.599,0:39:04.400
to quickly deploy a website which

0:39:02.240,0:39:05.200
contains a cms i really like the cmsr i

0:39:04.400,0:39:08.240
didn't

0:39:05.200,0:39:10.960
i couldn't really find other no code

0:39:08.240,0:39:11.920
tools that do it in the way webflow does

0:39:10.960,0:39:15.119
and

0:39:11.920,0:39:18.560
that it creates

0:39:15.119,0:39:20.560
multiple relationships between between

0:39:18.560,0:39:22.720
cms items that's what i also really like

0:39:20.560,0:39:24.800
for example with with the podcast

0:39:22.720,0:39:25.760
that's a good example where i have

0:39:24.800,0:39:28.880
guests

0:39:25.760,0:39:30.640
i have books i have events and i of

0:39:28.880,0:39:32.640
course have books i like

0:39:30.640,0:39:33.760
i can interlink them yeah i like your

0:39:32.640,0:39:36.160
guest list

0:39:33.760,0:39:37.920
because like i wanted to go and see

0:39:36.160,0:39:40.880
something look for somebody

0:39:37.920,0:39:42.560
in like an episode list is sort of the

0:39:40.880,0:39:44.160
same thing but

0:39:42.560,0:39:45.359
it's a little harder to search through

0:39:44.160,0:39:47.280
so i thought it was cool to just have a

0:39:45.359,0:39:48.960
guest list in that way if you have

0:39:47.280,0:39:51.280
guests on multiple times yeah that's a

0:39:48.960,0:39:53.440
smart way to set it up

0:39:51.280,0:39:54.880
yeah and then you have this so the guest

0:39:53.440,0:39:56.400
profile page and on the guest profile

0:39:54.880,0:39:58.720
page i can again list

0:39:56.400,0:39:59.839
the episodes they were part of because

0:39:58.720,0:40:01.280
those those things are

0:39:59.839,0:40:02.960
are linked to each other i don't have to

0:40:01.280,0:40:05.040
create a separate page linking them

0:40:02.960,0:40:06.960
manually no they're they're linked

0:40:05.040,0:40:08.720
uh all of cms items i can link them

0:40:06.960,0:40:11.520
together that's a military reference

0:40:08.720,0:40:13.760
field as they call it in web flow terms

0:40:11.520,0:40:15.920
and that's very useful did you end up

0:40:13.760,0:40:17.200
finding um you were looking for like a

0:40:15.920,0:40:19.119
because i was looking at some different

0:40:17.200,0:40:19.680
headless cms options and things like

0:40:19.119,0:40:21.040
that

0:40:19.680,0:40:22.960
talking to some people about headless

0:40:21.040,0:40:24.800
commerce and different cms

0:40:22.960,0:40:26.240
things and i know you're looking for

0:40:24.800,0:40:28.160
something that would give you sort of

0:40:26.240,0:40:30.319
some multi-user

0:40:28.160,0:40:31.760
access to some different did you end up

0:40:30.319,0:40:34.960
finding something to do that

0:40:31.760,0:40:37.040
nope no so and that's indeed

0:40:34.960,0:40:39.119
the limitation that i have with uh with

0:40:37.040,0:40:40.160
webflow what i would like to have is a

0:40:39.119,0:40:42.079
system

0:40:40.160,0:40:43.839
that allows me to have the same

0:40:42.079,0:40:45.359
front-end functionality but also allow

0:40:43.839,0:40:48.720
me to assign cms

0:40:45.359,0:40:49.200
items uh to certain people to to manage

0:40:48.720,0:40:51.599
them

0:40:49.200,0:40:52.880
so for example so for for podcast guests

0:40:51.599,0:40:55.680
to edit their own

0:40:52.880,0:40:57.920
uh information uh that sounds a bit like

0:40:55.680,0:41:00.640
overkill but for the center websites

0:40:57.920,0:41:02.000
uh i have uh companies uh that have

0:41:00.640,0:41:03.760
their own profile

0:41:02.000,0:41:05.280
and they have showcases that are linked

0:41:03.760,0:41:06.319
to that the showcases are our magento

0:41:05.280,0:41:08.480
websites

0:41:06.319,0:41:09.839
i would like to have a system where they

0:41:08.480,0:41:12.880
can manage that

0:41:09.839,0:41:15.119
um just have their own login

0:41:12.880,0:41:16.560
and manage that as a cms so i was

0:41:15.119,0:41:20.480
looking for for a headless

0:41:16.560,0:41:21.280
cms system that does the about that part

0:41:20.480,0:41:23.440
really well the

0:41:21.280,0:41:25.760
the user part really well and then just

0:41:23.440,0:41:28.240
connect it to some front end

0:41:25.760,0:41:29.040
but um yeah that doesn't seem like it

0:41:28.240,0:41:31.280
should be too

0:41:29.040,0:41:32.640
complicated i mean it would be a nice

0:41:31.280,0:41:34.400
thing to have for people to

0:41:32.640,0:41:35.839
to update because it's funny because one

0:41:34.400,0:41:38.720
of the things i've noticed with with

0:41:35.839,0:41:40.000
um the podcast is if you want to put in

0:41:38.720,0:41:43.200
like a quick

0:41:40.000,0:41:45.040
uh paragraph about a person um

0:41:43.200,0:41:47.200
you know hiroyanson is the this is the

0:41:45.040,0:41:48.720
ceo of this

0:41:47.200,0:41:50.640
and it's surprising even on people's

0:41:48.720,0:41:54.480
like linkedin pages how

0:41:50.640,0:41:56.800
often they don't have a short paragraph

0:41:54.480,0:41:58.640
like that even in their about

0:41:56.800,0:42:02.560
description it's always like too long

0:41:58.640,0:42:05.680
or just not phrased in a way that works

0:42:02.560,0:42:06.800
on like a like a bio page um so that

0:42:05.680,0:42:09.440
would be handy but

0:42:06.800,0:42:11.599
um yeah somebody showed me this list of

0:42:09.440,0:42:14.160
all the headless cmss

0:42:11.599,0:42:14.720
and there's like a hundred of them

0:42:14.160,0:42:18.079
there's like

0:42:14.720,0:42:20.560
so many of them it's um yeah i

0:42:18.079,0:42:22.480
actually i researched a lot for uh for

0:42:20.560,0:42:24.400
and then there was

0:42:22.480,0:42:26.240
uh ongoing search for a couple of years

0:42:24.400,0:42:29.280
now but uh uh

0:42:26.240,0:42:33.040
graph cms cosmic js data

0:42:29.280,0:42:36.720
cms storyblock concrete5

0:42:33.040,0:42:40.240
photo cms knack craft cms

0:42:36.720,0:42:43.280
bubble spo soho

0:42:40.240,0:42:44.880
so i can tell you my my ideal system

0:42:43.280,0:42:47.839
what kind of features it would it would

0:42:44.880,0:42:47.839
be multi-language

0:42:49.839,0:42:54.000
i'm not from the english uh speaking

0:42:51.839,0:42:55.760
world so i'm i'm i'm aware that there

0:42:54.000,0:42:56.960
are multiple languages so multi-language

0:42:55.760,0:42:59.440
would be really nice

0:42:56.960,0:43:01.440
actually um i'm actually talking to

0:42:59.440,0:43:04.560
someone so we can create a spanish

0:43:01.440,0:43:04.560
version of the syrup

0:43:05.359,0:43:11.200
there there you go multi-language it

0:43:08.240,0:43:14.160
should have one too many relationships

0:43:11.200,0:43:16.560
many relationships like webflow has a

0:43:14.160,0:43:20.720
public user registration

0:43:16.560,0:43:20.720
um what else do i want

0:43:20.960,0:43:24.240
limit record permissions for the for the

0:43:23.119,0:43:26.319
user so

0:43:24.240,0:43:27.359
for example with with uh airtable you

0:43:26.319,0:43:29.040
could also do it

0:43:27.359,0:43:31.119
but then you either have access to the

0:43:29.040,0:43:32.560
whole database right or nothing no i

0:43:31.119,0:43:35.280
want someone to have access to

0:43:32.560,0:43:36.000
their content and want to have that

0:43:35.280,0:43:38.240
limited

0:43:36.000,0:43:39.520
yeah it doesn't it should it should be

0:43:38.240,0:43:41.440
possible to have something that's

0:43:39.520,0:43:43.680
decent for seo and not completely break

0:43:41.440,0:43:45.760
down or have google

0:43:43.680,0:43:47.040
i i had this previously with connect i'm

0:43:45.760,0:43:49.040
not sure if that's the same

0:43:47.040,0:43:52.480
that was like google was unable to index

0:43:49.040,0:43:52.480
it that's that's a no-go

0:43:52.720,0:43:57.040
and at least it has to have some easy

0:43:54.640,0:44:00.160
public content that a no-code developer

0:43:57.040,0:44:00.560
or psychologist like me understands and

0:44:00.160,0:44:03.440
and

0:44:00.560,0:44:05.119
can make something of and and as a bonus

0:44:03.440,0:44:06.319
point if you have a zapier integration

0:44:05.119,0:44:08.640
that would be really nice

0:44:06.319,0:44:10.319
all right that that's my list well you

0:44:08.640,0:44:10.640
got your list that's half a battle i

0:44:10.319,0:44:12.560
mean

0:44:10.640,0:44:13.839
we've put it out there into the internet

0:44:12.560,0:44:16.720
and uh yeah

0:44:13.839,0:44:19.920
i'm sure some some young enterprising

0:44:16.720,0:44:22.880
developer is going to put that together

0:44:19.920,0:44:25.040
so that has to exist i mean there's over

0:44:22.880,0:44:25.839
a hundred of these headless cms things

0:44:25.040,0:44:27.760
so

0:44:25.839,0:44:29.839
it's at this point it's more it's it's

0:44:27.760,0:44:31.839
more of a search problem now

0:44:29.839,0:44:33.440
to find actually yeah yeah yeah so i

0:44:31.839,0:44:34.720
couldn't so i just mentioned a couple of

0:44:33.440,0:44:38.000
them but i have

0:44:34.720,0:44:39.920
32 in my list but

0:44:38.000,0:44:41.359
it's it's something that's developing so

0:44:39.920,0:44:43.359
fast also right right

0:44:41.359,0:44:45.520
um right so i just i just keep my list

0:44:43.359,0:44:46.160
in google in google drive and revisit it

0:44:45.520,0:44:50.319
every year

0:44:46.160,0:44:52.880
until i find until developments have

0:44:50.319,0:44:54.240
reached every year on the weekend before

0:44:52.880,0:44:56.400
the week before christmas

0:44:54.240,0:44:57.839
you go through it and oh that would be

0:44:56.400,0:45:01.520
nice yeah

0:44:57.839,0:45:02.960
um so headless commerce i have been

0:45:01.520,0:45:05.200
talking to a few different people about

0:45:02.960,0:45:07.119
it and um have kind of been

0:45:05.200,0:45:10.240
um interested in it it's something that

0:45:07.119,0:45:13.599
i think from a technical perspective

0:45:10.240,0:45:15.920
is interesting to developers but

0:45:13.599,0:45:16.640
i suspect that sort of for business

0:45:15.920,0:45:19.520
marketing

0:45:16.640,0:45:21.280
people it's like whatever it's

0:45:19.520,0:45:24.560
meaningless or it's like i don't

0:45:21.280,0:45:28.079
care um but i wanted to ask a proper

0:45:24.560,0:45:30.800
marketing person uh if if that was

0:45:28.079,0:45:32.400
if that was the case well if you if you

0:45:30.800,0:45:34.720
find a proper marketing person please

0:45:32.400,0:45:37.440
let me know uh what they think about it

0:45:34.720,0:45:37.440
i'm interested

0:45:38.000,0:45:42.240
i'd love to know are you an improper

0:45:40.240,0:45:45.040
marketing person

0:45:42.240,0:45:46.240
i don't know well yeah maybe so shiro is

0:45:45.040,0:45:48.079
often uh

0:45:46.240,0:45:49.280
uh part of the marketing team and i

0:45:48.079,0:45:50.319
disagree i think it should be part of

0:45:49.280,0:45:52.800
the product team

0:45:50.319,0:45:53.760
but um ah yes that's right that's

0:45:52.800,0:45:57.520
another discussion

0:45:53.760,0:46:01.839
that's right you can link in the show

0:45:57.520,0:46:05.040
notes below to the previous episode

0:46:01.839,0:46:07.040
um yeah so that's with all those

0:46:05.040,0:46:08.880
technology things right marketers

0:46:07.040,0:46:10.480
marketers don't don't care about their

0:46:08.880,0:46:10.960
business owners don't care about that

0:46:10.480,0:46:12.319
business

0:46:10.960,0:46:14.400
owners don't care about if you have

0:46:12.319,0:46:17.440
magento or not or if you're running

0:46:14.400,0:46:18.480
on on woocommerce or or shopify or

0:46:17.440,0:46:20.720
whatever

0:46:18.480,0:46:22.560
they don't care right and and i think

0:46:20.720,0:46:22.960
rightfully so i mean that's not that's

0:46:22.560,0:46:26.319
not

0:46:22.960,0:46:28.960
uh what their uh core issue is right and

0:46:26.319,0:46:29.680
uh that's that's not their their problem

0:46:28.960,0:46:33.200
it's something for

0:46:29.680,0:46:35.760
technology folks um to solve

0:46:33.200,0:46:37.920
but of course then there needs to be a

0:46:35.760,0:46:40.319
proper problem to solve and that's often

0:46:37.920,0:46:41.040
also where an issue is and and i think

0:46:40.319,0:46:43.440
many people

0:46:41.040,0:46:45.119
listening will recognize that uh that's

0:46:43.440,0:46:45.920
if if the problem is not properly

0:46:45.119,0:46:48.560
defined

0:46:45.920,0:46:49.280
it's really hard to find a solution uh

0:46:48.560,0:46:52.000
and that's

0:46:49.280,0:46:53.680
also with with cro something i encounter

0:46:52.000,0:46:58.480
with with many clients

0:46:53.680,0:47:01.520
that um can you optimize my website sure

0:46:58.480,0:47:03.760
what for you

0:47:01.520,0:47:06.160
i can optimize this for you to pay me

0:47:03.760,0:47:10.079
the optimal amount of money

0:47:06.160,0:47:13.119
for it it sounds very

0:47:10.079,0:47:14.720
it sounds like almost stupid to ask yeah

0:47:13.119,0:47:16.000
of course i want my conversion rates to

0:47:14.720,0:47:19.280
to go higher

0:47:16.000,0:47:21.040
okay but um probably not because i if i

0:47:19.280,0:47:21.520
ratio if i want to raise your conversion

0:47:21.040,0:47:23.760
rates

0:47:21.520,0:47:25.599
stupid example i just block the worst

0:47:23.760,0:47:28.079
part of your half of your traffic

0:47:25.599,0:47:29.280
and your conversion rate will go up

0:47:28.079,0:47:30.800
that's probably not what you want

0:47:29.280,0:47:32.240
because your revenue will go down your

0:47:30.800,0:47:32.640
conversion rate will go up your revenue

0:47:32.240,0:47:34.640
will go

0:47:32.640,0:47:36.160
or decrease prices or something like

0:47:34.640,0:47:39.599
that like put make your

0:47:36.160,0:47:40.960
decrease prices yeah exactly um

0:47:39.599,0:47:42.559
and i had those clients that were

0:47:40.960,0:47:44.319
completely serious no no just focus on

0:47:42.559,0:47:46.480
conversion just focus on conversion and

0:47:44.319,0:47:47.920
and of course you can do that for a year

0:47:46.480,0:47:48.400
but no one's going to be happy after

0:47:47.920,0:47:50.079
that year

0:47:48.400,0:47:52.800
i mean conversions might go up might go

0:47:50.079,0:47:54.240
down may stay the same but

0:47:52.800,0:47:55.520
that's not what you're optimizing the

0:47:54.240,0:47:57.200
business that you actually want to

0:47:55.520,0:48:00.559
optimize the business for and

0:47:57.200,0:48:00.559
uh if you keep it a bit

0:48:00.640,0:48:04.559
if you if you look at international

0:48:02.480,0:48:06.319
companies i've i've worked with a couple

0:48:04.559,0:48:07.839
of them that if you are a market leader

0:48:06.319,0:48:09.359
in in a country

0:48:07.839,0:48:11.119
then of course you can go for the

0:48:09.359,0:48:14.079
highest margin and

0:48:11.119,0:48:15.359
and try to keep uh being a market leader

0:48:14.079,0:48:17.920
but if you're if you're

0:48:15.359,0:48:19.599
with the same company uh similar website

0:48:17.920,0:48:21.920
if you're in a different com

0:48:19.599,0:48:24.319
country and you're a challenger there

0:48:21.920,0:48:26.319
you just enter the market

0:48:24.319,0:48:27.760
if you're going for uh biggest profit

0:48:26.319,0:48:28.480
margins you're probably not gonna make

0:48:27.760,0:48:30.240
it

0:48:28.480,0:48:31.599
uh you need to have a strategy in the

0:48:30.240,0:48:31.920
first couple of years you probably want

0:48:31.599,0:48:34.480
to

0:48:31.920,0:48:36.960
increase your market share first and

0:48:34.480,0:48:40.079
maybe even lose money doing so

0:48:36.960,0:48:41.200
are you happy doing that or not and if

0:48:40.079,0:48:42.240
you don't have an answer to that

0:48:41.200,0:48:43.920
question

0:48:42.240,0:48:45.440
i also cannot answer if you should

0:48:43.920,0:48:47.359
install magento or woocommerce or

0:48:45.440,0:48:49.200
shopify or

0:48:47.359,0:48:50.720
if you don't have those those more

0:48:49.200,0:48:53.040
strategic uh goals

0:48:50.720,0:48:53.920
with your company right it's really hard

0:48:53.040,0:48:56.160
to to

0:48:53.920,0:48:58.400
to fix the problem and that's some and

0:48:56.160,0:49:00.800
that's of course that we

0:48:58.400,0:49:02.079
marketing people or tech people need to

0:49:00.800,0:49:04.240
challenge the business people

0:49:02.079,0:49:06.160
with right you know what's funny i saw a

0:49:04.240,0:49:08.400
post today that was saying that the true

0:49:06.160,0:49:10.559
value of a lot of times with headless

0:49:08.400,0:49:12.559
the value is like speed up your front

0:49:10.559,0:49:14.319
end because you have a more modern front

0:49:12.559,0:49:16.880
end that that is faster

0:49:14.319,0:49:19.920
yeah but the thing like the true value

0:49:16.880,0:49:23.040
is actually back end operations because

0:49:19.920,0:49:25.359
it's easier to plug different tools

0:49:23.040,0:49:26.160
in because because basically your

0:49:25.359,0:49:28.880
platform is

0:49:26.160,0:49:30.720
less opinionated about how things should

0:49:28.880,0:49:32.640
work so it's funny because

0:49:30.720,0:49:33.920
i'm thinking about your your podcast

0:49:32.640,0:49:36.319
website and the cms

0:49:33.920,0:49:37.760
issue and part of the let's say there

0:49:36.319,0:49:40.559
was a tool

0:49:37.760,0:49:41.680
that had the cms functionality that you

0:49:40.559,0:49:43.359
needed

0:49:41.680,0:49:44.720
then the question would be okay now i

0:49:43.359,0:49:47.680
have webflow

0:49:44.720,0:49:48.880
and i have to fit this i have to sync

0:49:47.680,0:49:50.480
this thing in

0:49:48.880,0:49:52.240
and then it might be easier assuming

0:49:50.480,0:49:52.960
that cms thing did exist which who knows

0:49:52.240,0:49:55.839
if it does

0:49:52.960,0:49:58.559
it might be easier if that was headless

0:49:55.839,0:50:00.559
if it was disconnected from

0:49:58.559,0:50:02.720
your webflow situation your website

0:50:00.559,0:50:03.440
situation so you can easily just plug it

0:50:02.720,0:50:05.760
in

0:50:03.440,0:50:06.640
um you know that's kind of an example of

0:50:05.760,0:50:10.160
where

0:50:06.640,0:50:12.000
it's it's it's about your whole

0:50:10.160,0:50:14.720
suite of products that you need to plug

0:50:12.000,0:50:16.640
into your business you know

0:50:14.720,0:50:18.000
yeah but then the new need to uh

0:50:16.640,0:50:19.760
collaborate well together right and

0:50:18.000,0:50:20.240
that's that's often an issue with uh

0:50:19.760,0:50:21.760
yeah

0:50:20.240,0:50:23.680
a lot of these these problems that are

0:50:21.760,0:50:26.400
not api first and then

0:50:23.680,0:50:27.680
it's gonna be really hard to let them

0:50:26.400,0:50:30.720
talk to each other

0:50:27.680,0:50:33.760
right right um so

0:50:30.720,0:50:36.640
i saw uh you posted asking about

0:50:33.760,0:50:37.680
um job boards for companies that

0:50:36.640,0:50:40.720
practice

0:50:37.680,0:50:43.520
holacracy uh which

0:50:40.720,0:50:43.920
according to their twitter twitter bio

0:50:43.520,0:50:46.400
uh

0:50:43.920,0:50:47.119
provides a concrete framework for

0:50:46.400,0:50:51.359
encoding

0:50:47.119,0:50:54.079
autonomy agility and purpose alignment

0:50:51.359,0:50:55.760
into an organization's dna which i

0:50:54.079,0:50:57.200
thought i actually really like that

0:50:55.760,0:50:59.040
definite like those

0:50:57.200,0:51:01.200
are probably the three things that are

0:50:59.040,0:51:04.240
sort of the biggest part of my

0:51:01.200,0:51:05.839
personal philosophy of work um

0:51:04.240,0:51:07.599
so anyway i was curious to know more

0:51:05.839,0:51:09.359
about like your interest in that and if

0:51:07.599,0:51:14.640
you ended up finding

0:51:09.359,0:51:17.119
uh that that job board uh no i have not

0:51:14.640,0:51:18.400
and i think um so they're they're not a

0:51:17.119,0:51:20.079
lot of company

0:51:18.400,0:51:22.319
not a lot of companies that are already

0:51:20.079,0:51:24.880
adopting uh a whole accuracy

0:51:22.319,0:51:26.640
as a way of managing managing your

0:51:24.880,0:51:28.640
company yeah i've spoken to a couple of

0:51:26.640,0:51:30.800
people

0:51:28.640,0:51:32.240
already since uh three or four years ago

0:51:30.800,0:51:35.200
i think i was introduced

0:51:32.240,0:51:36.559
to to legracy i've never to be clear

0:51:35.200,0:51:38.960
i've never worked at a company

0:51:36.559,0:51:39.839
uh uh managed by the whole accuracy

0:51:38.960,0:51:43.119
system

0:51:39.839,0:51:45.119
and um but i find it i find the concept

0:51:43.119,0:51:47.119
very intriguing and i would love to

0:51:45.119,0:51:49.520
experience this uh

0:51:47.119,0:51:50.400
somehow and i've also interviewed

0:51:49.520,0:51:53.200
someone for the

0:51:50.400,0:51:55.200
on this here okay podcaster for that uh

0:51:53.200,0:51:57.359
they work as a converted com which is a

0:51:55.200,0:52:00.480
sponsor of the podcast

0:51:57.359,0:52:03.200
um as long as your phone is locked yeah

0:52:00.480,0:52:04.000
as long as you put it out yeah but they

0:52:03.200,0:52:05.520
they work for

0:52:04.000,0:52:06.960
according to this principle so and for

0:52:05.520,0:52:09.200
those that don't know holacracy is

0:52:06.960,0:52:12.400
basically a way of managing the company

0:52:09.200,0:52:15.280
um it's it's it's both very strict

0:52:12.400,0:52:16.240
and very free uh it's very strict in the

0:52:15.280,0:52:18.960
sense that

0:52:16.240,0:52:21.040
the rules are very clear what you can

0:52:18.960,0:52:21.599
what is defined what you can do in your

0:52:21.040,0:52:24.400
role

0:52:21.599,0:52:26.400
is very strictly defined uh but and if

0:52:24.400,0:52:28.880
it's not defined

0:52:26.400,0:52:29.839
it's up to you basically it puts a lot

0:52:28.880,0:52:32.240
of trust

0:52:29.839,0:52:34.079
in the person that has this role and so

0:52:32.240,0:52:37.440
and by the way when i say roles

0:52:34.079,0:52:38.880
one person can have like 20 roles uh so

0:52:37.440,0:52:40.800
you're also not

0:52:38.880,0:52:46.800
uh in that way so it's a multi-year

0:52:40.800,0:52:49.599
liberating multi-reference field yeah

0:52:46.800,0:52:51.280
it feels so liberating because when i

0:52:49.599,0:52:51.920
when i'm at a company i usually have

0:52:51.280,0:52:55.200
multiple

0:52:51.920,0:52:57.520
roles but you usually only are

0:52:55.200,0:52:58.240
looked at the person oh okay he's a zero

0:52:57.520,0:53:00.079
specialist

0:52:58.240,0:53:02.240
and that's what you're valued on if you

0:53:00.079,0:53:02.800
do anything else if i run a podcast for

0:53:02.240,0:53:06.000
you

0:53:02.800,0:53:06.319
if i uh uh do uh tons of blog posts for

0:53:06.000,0:53:07.680
you

0:53:06.319,0:53:09.599
that's not what you're gonna do just

0:53:07.680,0:53:10.480
like there's exactly for that yeah yeah

0:53:09.599,0:53:12.640
yeah

0:53:10.480,0:53:13.599
yeah and if and you can if you don't

0:53:12.640,0:53:15.359
like the role

0:53:13.599,0:53:17.280
now you can give it back to the to the

0:53:15.359,0:53:19.359
company to and then someone needs to

0:53:17.280,0:53:20.640
uh or you need to decide with the group

0:53:19.359,0:53:22.800
what's what's gonna happen

0:53:20.640,0:53:24.800
uh are we gonna hire someone for it uh

0:53:22.800,0:53:26.559
someone else gonna pick up that role

0:53:24.800,0:53:28.240
uh are we gonna get someone external for

0:53:26.559,0:53:30.480
that and so

0:53:28.240,0:53:32.800
so and that that feels feels liberating

0:53:30.480,0:53:35.520
to me it's easy within the company

0:53:32.800,0:53:37.760
to grow to pick something up uh to drop

0:53:35.520,0:53:40.160
something if you if you don't like it

0:53:37.760,0:53:41.760
and uh the freedom it's it's it's also

0:53:40.160,0:53:42.480
feels like it's meant to be for remote

0:53:41.760,0:53:45.359
work

0:53:42.480,0:53:46.559
uh for for distributed workforce it's

0:53:45.359,0:53:48.319
very well defined

0:53:46.559,0:53:49.760
what your what your goals are what your

0:53:48.319,0:53:51.359
role is for the company

0:53:49.760,0:53:53.359
this is how you can add the maximum

0:53:51.359,0:53:55.599
value uh within this role

0:53:53.359,0:53:56.559
for the company fine if you're or if

0:53:55.599,0:53:59.920
your budget

0:53:56.559,0:54:03.200
is uh 50k for marketing tools

0:53:59.920,0:54:06.640
you don't have to go to the to anyone

0:54:03.200,0:54:07.839
um asking for permission to to spend

0:54:06.640,0:54:10.319
that 50k

0:54:07.839,0:54:11.839
you can just go ahead and and do

0:54:10.319,0:54:13.839
whatever you seem fit

0:54:11.839,0:54:15.040
you there's a inherent trust in that

0:54:13.839,0:54:17.440
system and

0:54:15.040,0:54:19.040
of course when someone doesn't like that

0:54:17.440,0:54:21.760
you can discuss with the group

0:54:19.040,0:54:22.400
and you can come to uh a different set

0:54:21.760,0:54:24.319
of rules

0:54:22.400,0:54:26.800
that's fine you can you can still change

0:54:24.319,0:54:29.200
those rules of course as a collective

0:54:26.800,0:54:30.079
um but there's no one that can tell you

0:54:29.200,0:54:32.240
at that moment

0:54:30.079,0:54:34.000
no you cannot do this the ceo of the

0:54:32.240,0:54:36.480
company cannot tell you

0:54:34.000,0:54:37.680
uh no you're not allowed to spend this

0:54:36.480,0:54:38.160
money because that's already in your

0:54:37.680,0:54:40.960
role

0:54:38.160,0:54:43.520
you can do this you cannot agree he can

0:54:40.960,0:54:44.960
express his disagreement of course

0:54:43.520,0:54:47.280
but it's not going to stop you to do

0:54:44.960,0:54:48.960
anything that's cool and the person that

0:54:47.280,0:54:52.079
you interviewed

0:54:48.960,0:54:55.839
um is like was it in

0:54:52.079,0:54:58.799
in practice was it as like freeing as

0:54:55.839,0:54:59.599
you sort of in theory like expect it to

0:54:58.799,0:55:00.960
be like was

0:54:59.599,0:55:03.599
was the person in the interview just

0:55:00.960,0:55:06.400
like oh it's amazing like

0:55:03.599,0:55:08.240
yeah and i i think it's actually if if

0:55:06.400,0:55:10.160
you uh implement your legacy at your

0:55:08.240,0:55:11.920
company i think that's a great way

0:55:10.160,0:55:14.960
to lock people into your company because

0:55:11.920,0:55:14.960
no one ever wants to leave

0:55:15.359,0:55:18.400
it's really i think it's going to really

0:55:16.720,0:55:19.359
really hard to transition out of whole

0:55:18.400,0:55:23.200
accuracy

0:55:19.359,0:55:26.240
uh to another way of working yeah

0:55:23.200,0:55:28.319
yeah autonomy is huge like autonomy

0:55:26.240,0:55:30.640
and then just like being able to get

0:55:28.319,0:55:33.680
results that you're happy about

0:55:30.640,0:55:34.640
um are are huge i mean that's that's

0:55:33.680,0:55:37.520
what people want

0:55:34.640,0:55:38.960
like yeah and i think not just uh just

0:55:37.520,0:55:40.480
for me but what i've seen in uh

0:55:38.960,0:55:41.280
previously when working at companies

0:55:40.480,0:55:43.680
that's

0:55:41.280,0:55:45.440
uh i think that this would be beneficial

0:55:43.680,0:55:46.640
for for the bottom line for a lot of

0:55:45.440,0:55:50.240
companies i don't think

0:55:46.640,0:55:52.079
it works for every company but for a lot

0:55:50.240,0:55:54.480
of creative companies

0:55:52.079,0:55:55.599
definitely when they are remote and

0:55:54.480,0:55:58.799
distributed

0:55:55.599,0:56:00.640
this could be a great system

0:55:58.799,0:56:02.960
um where you just put in the trust in

0:56:00.640,0:56:03.599
the people if you if you can define what

0:56:02.960,0:56:05.839
what

0:56:03.599,0:56:07.359
adds uh benefits to the company if

0:56:05.839,0:56:09.359
that's well defined

0:56:07.359,0:56:11.040
you can work on that together i don't

0:56:09.359,0:56:11.520
think i don't think and that's that's

0:56:11.040,0:56:13.119
what i

0:56:11.520,0:56:15.200
also got from uh from this question with

0:56:13.119,0:56:17.119
others it probably doesn't work in the

0:56:15.200,0:56:19.760
in the first

0:56:17.119,0:56:21.440
year of your startup because things move

0:56:19.760,0:56:23.599
too fast

0:56:21.440,0:56:24.559
but if you can after a while you hire

0:56:23.599,0:56:26.960
people um

0:56:24.559,0:56:27.920
and you have a plus 10 people i think

0:56:26.960,0:56:30.720
then then it

0:56:27.920,0:56:31.359
starts making sense yeah but i i would

0:56:30.720,0:56:32.960
suggest

0:56:31.359,0:56:35.920
you just interview someone that actually

0:56:32.960,0:56:35.920
knows what they're talking about

0:56:36.079,0:56:39.680
but for me that that sounds like an

0:56:37.839,0:56:41.440
experience that i'd really want to

0:56:39.680,0:56:42.960
have yeah that sounds like a great idea

0:56:41.440,0:56:45.599
for a job board

0:56:42.960,0:56:46.799
um something specific to that because i

0:56:45.599,0:56:48.160
think i'd like to say oh but then of

0:56:46.799,0:56:50.400
course that you need to have companies

0:56:48.160,0:56:51.839
actually yeah you got a question these

0:56:50.400,0:56:54.480
companies exist

0:56:51.839,0:56:55.119
that's the first problem nice man well

0:56:54.480,0:56:56.559
uh

0:56:55.119,0:56:58.480
but maybe maybe it's a bit of chicken

0:56:56.559,0:57:00.240
egg yeah

0:56:58.480,0:57:01.520
yeah i mean now maybe you should just

0:57:00.240,0:57:02.000
create a job board and then you'll

0:57:01.520,0:57:03.839
create

0:57:02.000,0:57:05.359
the economy around it yeah maybe that's

0:57:03.839,0:57:07.040
the way to do it go for it kevin that's

0:57:05.359,0:57:08.960
how i usually do stuff

0:57:07.040,0:57:10.559
create it and figure it out afterwards

0:57:08.960,0:57:13.200
well hito is fun catching up

0:57:10.559,0:57:15.760
uh always a good time uh where is the

0:57:13.200,0:57:19.200
best place for people to find you online

0:57:15.760,0:57:21.280
these days uh g-u-i dot d-o is my

0:57:19.200,0:57:22.799
personal website and uh this hero cafe

0:57:21.280,0:57:27.839
we've been talking about this

0:57:22.799,0:57:27.839
cro dot cafe