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Willem Wigman is a Magento Developer and eCommerce consultant at integer_net, and the creator of the Hyva theme for Magento.
In this episode we talk about his new approach to the Magento frontend.
0:00:00.080,0:00:03.600 so i thought it would it was a bit like 0:00:01.760,0:00:05.200 hoover 0:00:03.600,0:00:07.279 which is the vacuum cleaner yes it's 0:00:05.200,0:00:10.880 like yes image of 0:00:07.279,0:00:14.240 uh of uh hoover your team sucking up 0:00:10.880,0:00:14.240 all the dirt that's gentle 0:00:14.820,0:00:20.090 [Laughter] 0:00:20.160,0:00:35.549 let's go 0:00:30.550,0:00:35.549 [Music] 0:00:36.559,0:00:40.480 all right so how's it going man how's 0:00:38.559,0:00:42.640 your day going before we get started 0:00:40.480,0:00:46.239 here 0:00:42.640,0:00:49.440 my day uh good busy busy 0:00:46.239,0:00:50.480 busy busy yeah um yeah it's just many 0:00:49.440,0:00:53.600 things at once 0:00:50.480,0:00:56.399 um as you know uh 0:00:53.600,0:00:58.879 we launched this product the new front 0:00:56.399,0:01:02.879 end for magento uh 0:00:58.879,0:01:03.680 yeah and well next to that i have my day 0:01:02.879,0:01:06.880 job so 0:01:03.680,0:01:09.030 we're we're building um a couple of web 0:01:06.880,0:01:10.840 shops using 0:01:09.030,0:01:13.600 [Music] 0:01:10.840,0:01:15.840 and are you spending most of the day 0:01:13.600,0:01:18.159 working on that 0:01:15.840,0:01:20.320 yeah well so i'm luckily i'm not i'm not 0:01:18.159,0:01:23.280 building all of those projects but 0:01:20.320,0:01:24.560 i'm trying to to supervise them kind of 0:01:23.280,0:01:27.200 to see 0:01:24.560,0:01:28.799 what people run into we kind of have 0:01:27.200,0:01:30.880 this process where 0:01:28.799,0:01:32.400 um we're building the product while 0:01:30.880,0:01:34.880 we're doing implementations 0:01:32.400,0:01:37.680 so i'm getting a great deal of help from 0:01:34.880,0:01:41.040 integer net my employer 0:01:37.680,0:01:45.040 we have a great partnership where 0:01:41.040,0:01:48.399 we benefit from each other's efforts 0:01:45.040,0:01:49.920 and yeah so there's implementations and 0:01:48.399,0:01:52.720 people are doing their thing and 0:01:49.920,0:01:54.560 i'm trying to take a peek in once in a 0:01:52.720,0:01:58.479 while and see where yet 0:01:54.560,0:02:00.640 and what they did with it and then um 0:01:58.479,0:02:02.000 try to do my best and not to get too 0:02:00.640,0:02:05.520 much involved because 0:02:02.000,0:02:08.800 um that's definitely my pitfall to yeah 0:02:05.520,0:02:12.480 jump in and do everything yeah yeah 0:02:08.800,0:02:15.120 so i'm i'm trying to both um 0:02:12.480,0:02:16.160 keep my vision and the direction of the 0:02:15.120,0:02:20.400 product 0:02:16.160,0:02:22.400 in it but try not to um 0:02:20.400,0:02:24.319 not to pull everything towards myself 0:02:22.400,0:02:26.080 yeah yeah the challenging 0:02:24.319,0:02:28.400 thing itself it's a tough balance but 0:02:26.080,0:02:30.480 it's good that like 0:02:28.400,0:02:32.239 you're um that you have actual people 0:02:30.480,0:02:32.720 implementing like when i saw pj was 0:02:32.239,0:02:34.640 already 0:02:32.720,0:02:36.319 implementing it i was like that's a 0:02:34.640,0:02:39.680 really good sign and 0:02:36.319,0:02:43.440 um you know versus like yeah 0:02:39.680,0:02:45.920 um i mean integer they're my friends 0:02:43.440,0:02:47.120 um i knew them a long while before i 0:02:45.920,0:02:50.560 started working with them 0:02:47.120,0:02:54.000 always saw them on conferences and 0:02:50.560,0:02:57.120 the guys from elgantos same thing like 0:02:54.000,0:02:58.879 two weeks back uh jaron and peter yeah 0:02:57.120,0:03:00.480 both sent me this picture from our first 0:02:58.879,0:03:04.000 hackathon together 0:03:00.480,0:03:07.519 and it was um 0:03:04.000,0:03:10.879 seven years ago eight years ago and uh 0:03:07.519,0:03:12.800 it was a it was a it's it was um 0:03:10.879,0:03:15.040 a special moment for me things changed 0:03:12.800,0:03:16.959 after that like seeing 0:03:15.040,0:03:18.560 doing his stuff in the ide and i was 0:03:16.959,0:03:21.440 still working in this 0:03:18.560,0:03:21.440 dumb coding 0:03:21.599,0:03:25.040 software that well i like the fact that 0:03:24.480,0:03:28.159 it had 0:03:25.040,0:03:29.519 ftp built in so i could directly edit 0:03:28.159,0:03:31.519 stuff from the server 0:03:29.519,0:03:32.640 and don't have all this messing with 0:03:31.519,0:03:35.440 synchronizing and 0:03:32.640,0:03:37.519 right and versioning so are syncing from 0:03:35.440,0:03:38.480 a server to my local machine and then 0:03:37.519,0:03:42.400 having a backup 0:03:38.480,0:03:45.040 that was my my versioning yeah 0:03:42.400,0:03:46.239 um rsc and we got started with that 0:03:45.040,0:03:49.599 hackathon and 0:03:46.239,0:03:51.680 um pdf was like oh 0:03:49.599,0:03:54.000 yeah you're not using phpstorm i was 0:03:51.680,0:03:55.360 like nah i have this whole workflow and 0:03:54.000,0:03:57.439 it works for me 0:03:55.360,0:03:58.400 yeah yeah right right right okay let's 0:03:57.439,0:04:00.239 just get started 0:03:58.400,0:04:01.680 yeah i was just looking at a screen all 0:04:00.239,0:04:03.360 the time and i was 0:04:01.680,0:04:05.120 it took 15 minutes and it started to 0:04:03.360,0:04:07.599 install phpstorm yeah 0:04:05.120,0:04:09.360 yeah so we go back and they were the 0:04:07.599,0:04:12.480 first trusted ones that i 0:04:09.360,0:04:15.599 that i showed the product and 0:04:12.480,0:04:19.359 i knew they have experience with laravel 0:04:15.599,0:04:22.079 and tailwind so they were the 0:04:19.359,0:04:23.040 perfect second uh guinea pig to get 0:04:22.079,0:04:26.479 started with it 0:04:23.040,0:04:27.360 yeah and um yeah that was helpful 0:04:26.479,0:04:29.600 because they were 0:04:27.360,0:04:30.479 also super enthusiastic and then you you 0:04:29.600,0:04:33.199 know 0:04:30.479,0:04:35.600 um you know you what you're working 0:04:33.199,0:04:35.600 towards 0:04:37.600,0:04:42.240 so much energy has gone into this over 0:04:40.639,0:04:46.240 the past 0:04:42.240,0:04:48.320 six months um and 0:04:46.240,0:04:50.320 well i started because i don't know if 0:04:48.320,0:04:51.199 you saw the presentation from reacticon 0:04:50.320,0:04:54.080 fully but 0:04:51.199,0:04:56.080 um i watched a good like 30 40 minutes 0:04:54.080,0:04:56.560 of it this morning and then i thought i 0:04:56.080,0:04:58.720 was 0:04:56.560,0:05:00.639 this is the funny thing about that long 0:04:58.720,0:05:01.199 react video with everything embedded in 0:05:00.639,0:05:04.240 it 0:05:01.199,0:05:05.280 i thought i had watched like 90 of it 0:05:04.240,0:05:06.880 and then i realized there was like a 0:05:05.280,0:05:08.400 bunch of like q and a i think there was 0:05:06.880,0:05:10.000 a bunch of stuff so 0:05:08.400,0:05:11.680 but i got through a lot like because i 0:05:10.000,0:05:13.039 was tracking with the slides 0:05:11.680,0:05:14.720 and then i got to like the end of the 0:05:13.039,0:05:16.240 slides and i was like oh okay i'm i'm 0:05:14.720,0:05:20.960 almost done with it but 0:05:16.240,0:05:22.400 um i didn't that is started improvising 0:05:20.960,0:05:26.160 no actually the whole thing was 0:05:22.400,0:05:28.479 improvised but yeah i got some slides 0:05:26.160,0:05:29.440 no no i set quite a few things in those 0:05:28.479,0:05:33.199 first slides but 0:05:29.440,0:05:34.880 i i really meant to take as much time as 0:05:33.199,0:05:36.240 possible to actually focus on the 0:05:34.880,0:05:38.960 product itself and 0:05:36.240,0:05:39.680 yes it from from year ago he was very 0:05:38.960,0:05:43.039 helpful 0:05:39.680,0:05:45.680 um we we had this run through the 0:05:43.039,0:05:47.360 beginning of the week and um he asked me 0:05:45.680,0:05:48.960 what i wanted to do with q a and i 0:05:47.360,0:05:50.400 showed him the last slide that i had 0:05:48.960,0:05:52.479 ready and it said like 0:05:50.400,0:05:54.000 no way we got this far and this time 0:05:52.479,0:05:57.280 left for questions 0:05:54.000,0:05:57.600 so i would do a q a later and uh he was 0:05:57.280,0:06:00.400 like 0:05:57.600,0:06:01.600 yeah you know it's the closure closing 0:06:00.400,0:06:04.960 of the 0:06:01.600,0:06:06.000 of the conference and um um we just we 0:06:04.960,0:06:08.560 just 0:06:06.000,0:06:10.319 put it after it and we keep going until 0:06:08.560,0:06:11.360 uh until we're done and we make a party 0:06:10.319,0:06:14.000 out of it yeah 0:06:11.360,0:06:19.919 so by the way this feels like the 0:06:14.000,0:06:21.759 podcast already should we get started 0:06:19.919,0:06:25.280 thought you were recording already 0:06:21.759,0:06:27.680 no no no no i said we're not 0:06:25.280,0:06:28.720 yeah i mean i was recording i did record 0:06:27.680,0:06:30.560 it but i was 0:06:28.720,0:06:34.800 i was just kind of catching up before we 0:06:30.560,0:06:37.520 get started 0:06:34.800,0:06:39.120 so yeah so if i'm going to tell the same 0:06:37.520,0:06:40.800 thing again it's going to be less 0:06:39.120,0:06:43.680 genuine it's going to be less yeah yeah 0:06:40.800,0:06:44.240 yeah that's it it's going to sound 0:06:43.680,0:06:46.160 rehearsed 0:06:44.240,0:06:48.240 we'll circle our we'll we'll weave our 0:06:46.160,0:06:51.440 way back to it so that it's uh oh 0:06:48.240,0:06:54.400 man it's organic catching up then done 0:06:51.440,0:06:55.840 yeah that was just to catch up polite i 0:06:54.400,0:07:00.560 haven't let you talk 0:06:55.840,0:07:03.199 at all you have to you have to put 0:07:00.560,0:07:05.199 you have to give me a check you i mean 0:07:03.199,0:07:06.240 your podcast and when i need to shut up 0:07:05.199,0:07:08.080 you need to shut me up 0:07:06.240,0:07:09.919 no no it's good it was really good i was 0:07:08.080,0:07:11.440 like this is great i i had a feeling you 0:07:09.919,0:07:13.199 thought it was a podcast because it was 0:07:11.440,0:07:16.880 great for the podcast 0:07:13.199,0:07:17.360 um but uh are you sure you're sure that 0:07:16.880,0:07:21.599 we 0:07:17.360,0:07:23.599 that we um that this ain't the postcards 0:07:21.599,0:07:24.880 you know what let's make it the podcast 0:07:23.599,0:07:26.720 it is the podcast 0:07:24.880,0:07:28.639 where are where are you doing we need 0:07:26.720,0:07:30.160 structure anyway who needs structure 0:07:28.639,0:07:30.720 yeah you know what that's a good point i 0:07:30.160,0:07:32.880 like that 0:07:30.720,0:07:34.479 i like that it's we're we're in it i 0:07:32.880,0:07:36.960 only have two hours anyway right 0:07:34.479,0:07:38.800 we got we got time we got time yeah we 0:07:36.960,0:07:42.720 got some time for sure 0:07:38.800,0:07:46.400 uh so that i don't know where to go 0:07:42.720,0:07:47.360 but i um so my first question i was 0:07:46.400,0:07:48.879 gonna ask was 0:07:47.360,0:07:50.720 the word java which i know i'm 0:07:48.879,0:07:51.680 pronouncing wrong i think i just heard 0:07:50.720,0:07:55.199 you say it 0:07:51.680,0:07:57.680 it's uh uh but it means in finnish 0:07:55.199,0:08:00.080 it means good is that is that what is 0:07:57.680,0:08:03.199 that what it is yeah 0:08:00.080,0:08:06.639 yeah well that's that's one um 0:08:03.199,0:08:10.000 uh there's there's a bunch of meaning um 0:08:06.639,0:08:13.360 to the word and it's all positive um 0:08:10.000,0:08:15.599 the most common one is viva so 0:08:13.360,0:08:17.199 during conversation do you speak finnish 0:08:15.599,0:08:19.919 by the way because i know you're 0:08:17.199,0:08:20.639 not good okay i lived there for four 0:08:19.919,0:08:24.840 years 0:08:20.639,0:08:26.080 um everyone i hang out with spoke 0:08:24.840,0:08:28.720 english 0:08:26.080,0:08:30.639 so it was basically going to the 0:08:28.720,0:08:31.599 supermarket and just bluffing my way 0:08:30.639,0:08:34.640 through it 0:08:31.599,0:08:37.680 uh seeing how far i would get until the 0:08:34.640,0:08:38.159 the cashier what's it called cashier 0:08:37.680,0:08:40.640 yeah 0:08:38.159,0:08:41.200 yeah the cashier until she would call me 0:08:40.640,0:08:43.919 well 0:08:41.200,0:08:45.519 she would detect my my non-finnish roots 0:08:43.919,0:08:46.800 so i really tried to get my 0:08:45.519,0:08:50.560 pronunciation 0:08:46.800,0:08:54.720 uh pronunciation right nice but hoover 0:08:50.560,0:08:58.000 who is just um it's like 0:08:54.720,0:09:00.240 a ball in french or good in english it's 0:08:58.000,0:09:03.600 like ah good okay let's get going and 0:09:00.240,0:09:06.800 but uh more of those um but it has extra 0:09:03.600,0:09:06.800 meanings like um 0:09:06.839,0:09:09.839 um 0:09:10.640,0:09:16.480 desirable okay 0:09:13.839,0:09:17.279 and um by the way if it seems like i'm 0:09:16.480,0:09:19.120 sweating 0:09:17.279,0:09:21.200 i'm in a whole new i had to move my 0:09:19.120,0:09:24.000 whole set up for my kate for my 0:09:21.200,0:09:25.040 shed because it got too cold back inside 0:09:24.000,0:09:28.080 so it's like 0:09:25.040,0:09:29.519 super hot in here so it's not that 0:09:28.080,0:09:32.240 you're stressing me out or anything like 0:09:29.519,0:09:32.240 that just so you know 0:09:32.560,0:09:37.839 my breath is just in case so it's like 0:09:35.600,0:09:38.720 yeah yeah so just if i had a really 0:09:37.839,0:09:42.160 positive 0:09:38.720,0:09:44.959 uh um uh emotion or 0:09:42.160,0:09:46.560 it gives me a positive feeling and um i 0:09:44.959,0:09:50.560 mean what we're doing it's 0:09:46.560,0:09:52.959 it's uh good and desirable yeah it's um 0:09:50.560,0:09:54.080 yeah so many people's reaction to it has 0:09:52.959,0:09:57.120 been 0:09:54.080,0:09:58.160 um super positive right like there's 0:09:57.120,0:10:00.480 this 0:09:58.160,0:10:01.839 and like even like there's a lot of 0:10:00.480,0:10:03.120 emotion in your voice in the 0:10:01.839,0:10:05.920 presentation 0:10:03.120,0:10:07.440 around like man like um and all the 0:10:05.920,0:10:08.880 tweets you pulled in from the community 0:10:07.440,0:10:12.320 and stuff of people that are just so 0:10:08.880,0:10:12.959 frustrated with um magento 2 development 0:10:12.320,0:10:15.519 whether it's 0:10:12.959,0:10:16.399 the regular luma or pwa or whatever and 0:10:15.519,0:10:19.040 then like 0:10:16.399,0:10:19.600 people are just having a lot of fun with 0:10:19.040,0:10:21.200 uh 0:10:19.600,0:10:23.040 with what you built you know which is 0:10:21.200,0:10:26.640 neat to see 0:10:23.040,0:10:30.000 it so i mean it's all genuine 0:10:26.640,0:10:33.040 i lied awake for for 0:10:30.000,0:10:36.000 two months going through 0:10:33.040,0:10:36.480 um that presentation because it was it 0:10:36.000,0:10:39.200 uh 0:10:36.480,0:10:40.320 i tried to keep my mouth shut as long as 0:10:39.200,0:10:43.279 possible 0:10:40.320,0:10:44.399 uh not spitting my beans and and you did 0:10:43.279,0:10:47.360 a pretty good job 0:10:44.399,0:10:49.519 of that yeah and then still building 0:10:47.360,0:10:50.079 tension so that people would still watch 0:10:49.519,0:10:51.839 without 0:10:50.079,0:10:54.480 even having a title for the for the 0:10:51.839,0:10:56.160 presentation um 0:10:54.480,0:11:01.519 because well you know launching a 0:10:56.160,0:11:04.640 product it's it's it's timely uh 0:11:01.519,0:11:08.399 you eventually people will copy it uh 0:11:04.640,0:11:11.040 better later than sooner yeah yeah 0:11:08.399,0:11:11.839 yeah i i mean i think that's so that was 0:11:11.040,0:11:15.680 one thing 0:11:11.839,0:11:18.800 yeah but also i i yeah i wanted to have 0:11:15.680,0:11:22.959 an impact with the presentation and um 0:11:18.800,0:11:27.680 well a lot of it came from the god um 0:11:22.959,0:11:29.680 um i can get sad about the state of 0:11:27.680,0:11:32.399 magento community 0:11:29.680,0:11:33.600 i can get sad about the choices that are 0:11:32.399,0:11:36.800 being made 0:11:33.600,0:11:39.200 that are out of our reach yeah 0:11:36.800,0:11:41.040 we've been struggling for the last two 0:11:39.200,0:11:44.240 years to 0:11:41.040,0:11:45.920 get the right solution to bring the best 0:11:44.240,0:11:48.000 webshop to our customer to 0:11:45.920,0:11:50.800 the merchants that we work for as an 0:11:48.000,0:11:54.399 implementer and developer 0:11:50.800,0:11:56.880 and having fun doing our job 0:11:54.399,0:11:58.399 and i spent a great deal of time and 0:11:56.880,0:12:03.040 energy 0:11:58.399,0:12:06.240 optimizing uh the luma the old from them 0:12:03.040,0:12:09.120 and it was at that end um um 0:12:06.240,0:12:10.800 we we put a lot of effort in it and last 0:12:09.120,0:12:13.760 year we got great results 0:12:10.800,0:12:15.440 um and i'm beginning of the year well 0:12:13.760,0:12:16.399 like i said in the presentation google 0:12:15.440,0:12:18.399 decided that 0:12:16.399,0:12:19.519 uh we're done with megabytes of 0:12:18.399,0:12:22.639 javascript 0:12:19.519,0:12:24.800 um and that's just that doesn't work for 0:12:22.639,0:12:27.440 a great experience for your visitor 0:12:24.800,0:12:29.920 um sending four or even eight megabytes 0:12:27.440,0:12:32.720 if you fancy doing pwa 0:12:29.920,0:12:33.680 it's um it takes a while to pull it in 0:12:32.720,0:12:36.880 if you're not on 0:12:33.680,0:12:40.000 on a high-speed internet connection 0:12:36.880,0:12:43.519 or other phone device 0:12:40.000,0:12:45.440 and yeah if you want speed you can see 0:12:43.519,0:12:48.880 the demos are up 0:12:45.440,0:12:50.560 we got plenty of it and we're building 0:12:48.880,0:12:53.839 in more features and 0:12:50.560,0:12:57.120 this so far there's no degradation in 0:12:53.839,0:13:00.320 performance so one of the 0:12:57.120,0:13:02.560 responses um well i got 0:13:00.320,0:13:03.600 like i got a handful of people that were 0:13:02.560,0:13:06.639 skeptic because 0:13:03.600,0:13:10.160 um there's just not much in the demo yet 0:13:06.639,0:13:11.279 and we only have simple products um 0:13:10.160,0:13:14.000 and there's some features that we're 0:13:11.279,0:13:16.480 still building out but 0:13:14.000,0:13:18.720 rendering a configurable product page it 0:13:16.480,0:13:20.959 has some drop downs 0:13:18.720,0:13:23.120 and i mean there's some javascript 0:13:20.959,0:13:25.200 behind it to calculate what options they 0:13:23.120,0:13:27.680 influence each other first option 0:13:25.200,0:13:29.760 means you get less options uh if you 0:13:27.680,0:13:31.519 select the color there's less sizes so 0:13:29.760,0:13:34.079 uh there's some things there and 0:13:31.519,0:13:37.839 changing images in the gallery 0:13:34.079,0:13:41.120 but that that all doesn't add up to 0:13:37.839,0:13:45.279 the performance degradation it's 0:13:41.120,0:13:45.279 it's a few lines of javascript 0:13:45.839,0:13:49.920 opposed to megabytes of javascript that 0:13:48.079,0:13:53.199 you normally find in the library 0:13:49.920,0:13:55.600 and we built a whole thing in a way that 0:13:53.199,0:13:57.760 the first render is always a full 0:13:55.600,0:14:00.399 rendered 0:13:57.760,0:14:01.040 php page so you get the raw html in your 0:14:00.399,0:14:03.199 browser 0:14:01.040,0:14:05.920 server side rendering which is the 0:14:03.199,0:14:08.160 toughest not to crack for pwa 0:14:05.920,0:14:10.480 you get the full html to your browser 0:14:08.160,0:14:13.360 and then tailwind 0:14:10.480,0:14:15.440 the css library that we use it generates 0:14:13.360,0:14:19.279 50 0:14:15.440,0:14:22.320 35 kilobytes of css 0:14:19.279,0:14:25.760 and then the the javascript library 0:14:22.320,0:14:28.720 is 50 60 kilobytes and that's it 0:14:25.760,0:14:31.360 and that makes a immediate page render 0:14:28.720,0:14:35.360 like we have a 0.000 0:14:31.360,0:14:38.480 repaint on the first page 0:14:35.360,0:14:40.399 and everything we do that javascript 0:14:38.480,0:14:42.000 loads after the initial page like the 0:14:40.399,0:14:44.480 the dom is rendered and then 0:14:42.000,0:14:45.519 now igs kicks in and they make things 0:14:44.480,0:14:48.880 dynamic 0:14:45.519,0:14:51.440 but um your page is immediately there 0:14:48.880,0:14:53.199 yeah so by the way this is a this is 0:14:51.440,0:14:54.639 kind of a minor thing but on tailwind so 0:14:53.199,0:14:57.680 i use tailwind myself 0:14:54.639,0:15:00.480 i love it it's like so simple um 0:14:57.680,0:15:02.399 but i recently tried to upgrade well i 0:15:00.480,0:15:04.160 wanted to use one of the newer tailwind 0:15:02.399,0:15:06.639 ui components 0:15:04.160,0:15:07.440 and i went in to use it and i needed a 0:15:06.639,0:15:09.120 new version 0:15:07.440,0:15:10.639 of tailwind so i was like well this 0:15:09.120,0:15:13.199 shouldn't be too hard 0:15:10.639,0:15:15.040 there's like a list of like 20 things 0:15:13.199,0:15:15.519 that you got to do to like recompile 0:15:15.040,0:15:17.839 your 0:15:15.519,0:15:19.920 it it's funny because it made me think 0:15:17.839,0:15:23.040 of like a magento upgrade which like 0:15:19.920,0:15:26.240 it's the it's the last like tailwind 0:15:23.040,0:15:28.639 is it feels so simple and clean 0:15:26.240,0:15:30.160 um but up i mean upgrades are always 0:15:28.639,0:15:32.800 complicated when you got to change 0:15:30.160,0:15:33.199 the way things are implemented i imagine 0:15:32.800,0:15:35.360 it's 0:15:33.199,0:15:37.440 it's uh it's surprising that tailwind 0:15:35.360,0:15:39.120 doesn't do this themselves because if i 0:15:37.440,0:15:41.600 think of it it's quite simple but 0:15:39.120,0:15:42.959 i think i would write a shell script 0:15:41.600,0:15:46.320 that we just replaced 0:15:42.959,0:15:49.680 i think some of the things were like gap 0:15:46.320,0:15:51.759 gap uh changed and some 0:15:49.680,0:15:54.800 well just some some naming conventions i 0:15:51.759,0:15:56.720 think and other than that it's not not 0:15:54.800,0:15:58.399 not that big of a deal it's just a lot 0:15:56.720,0:16:00.720 of manual 0:15:58.399,0:16:02.639 uh changing yeah so if you have the list 0:16:00.720,0:16:04.320 of what if you can map them there's a 0:16:02.639,0:16:06.000 shell script you can write it in 30 0:16:04.320,0:16:09.120 minutes and we could publish that to 0:16:06.000,0:16:10.959 all our customers so right right yeah 0:16:09.120,0:16:12.639 that would be nice that much of a 0:16:10.959,0:16:15.680 problem yeah 0:16:12.639,0:16:17.759 um i know i interrupted you midstream as 0:16:15.680,0:16:19.279 you were talking about the whole uh 0:16:17.759,0:16:21.519 kind of the implementation oh man we 0:16:19.279,0:16:23.440 went into ten different paths and i 0:16:21.519,0:16:24.399 started to talk about something and then 0:16:23.440,0:16:26.480 my mind 0:16:24.399,0:16:27.759 changed the next thing and meanwhile i 0:16:26.480,0:16:30.240 remember that i was still 0:16:27.759,0:16:32.000 talking about peter yap and then some 0:16:30.240,0:16:35.600 contacts completely lost 0:16:32.000,0:16:36.000 yeah i i wanted to i wanted to talk a 0:16:35.600,0:16:38.399 little bit 0:16:36.000,0:16:40.320 more about the like the sadness around 0:16:38.399,0:16:42.880 the magento community stuff 0:16:40.320,0:16:44.639 because i like like i said i felt that 0:16:42.880,0:16:46.399 emotion in your voice and i felt that 0:16:44.639,0:16:50.000 myself as well 0:16:46.399,0:16:51.839 um and i think a lot of people feel that 0:16:50.000,0:16:54.480 right like you see people moving to 0:16:51.839,0:16:55.680 other platforms i think for myself 0:16:54.480,0:16:58.480 personally 0:16:55.680,0:17:01.920 um i have gotten a little more 0:16:58.480,0:17:04.559 comfortable with the idea of being 0:17:01.920,0:17:05.600 kind of a multi-platform e-commerce 0:17:04.559,0:17:07.039 world and i'm 0:17:05.600,0:17:08.880 i'm getting interested in other 0:17:07.039,0:17:11.839 platforms and stuff like that 0:17:08.880,0:17:13.520 but it took me a long time to even like 0:17:11.839,0:17:15.120 be okay with that because there's like 0:17:13.520,0:17:16.799 this 0:17:15.120,0:17:18.160 yeah it's cheating right like there's 0:17:16.799,0:17:19.760 this love that you have for the 0:17:18.160,0:17:21.360 community for the platform for your 0:17:19.760,0:17:24.400 history with it 0:17:21.360,0:17:27.919 and i think a lot of us like think back 0:17:24.400,0:17:28.640 to that simpler time when it was just 0:17:27.919,0:17:30.400 magento 0:17:28.640,0:17:32.720 everybody we were all a community that 0:17:30.400,0:17:35.840 was all just focused on one platform 0:17:32.720,0:17:39.280 and we had complaints but they were not 0:17:35.840,0:17:42.080 as bad as the complaints we have now and 0:17:39.280,0:17:43.200 um i i don't know like i think it's i 0:17:42.080,0:17:46.880 think it's a tough 0:17:43.200,0:17:47.360 thing but um i also thought it was a 0:17:46.880,0:17:50.799 little 0:17:47.360,0:17:52.480 i thought there was some irony in um 0:17:50.799,0:17:54.000 the fact that like for example when 0:17:52.480,0:17:55.679 you're talking about your wife's shop 0:17:54.000,0:17:57.679 like wanting to start a shop which is 0:17:55.679,0:18:00.000 why you did this 0:17:57.679,0:18:01.760 yeah that's oh you bring me back to let 0:18:00.000,0:18:03.840 me interrupt you now for a second okay 0:18:01.760,0:18:05.440 that's what i started to talk about so 0:18:03.840,0:18:06.480 that was the thing that was the 0:18:05.440,0:18:08.799 initiator 0:18:06.480,0:18:10.960 yeah building a shop for my wife and 0:18:08.799,0:18:11.919 meantime i have a product i have two 0:18:10.960,0:18:15.840 webshops live 0:18:11.919,0:18:15.840 and my wife doesn't 0:18:18.080,0:18:22.320 but i promise her she's getting it 0:18:20.160,0:18:22.880 before uh before the beginning of next 0:18:22.320,0:18:26.960 year 0:18:22.880,0:18:29.120 right right that's funny 0:18:26.960,0:18:31.200 but like i thought there was some so 0:18:29.120,0:18:33.520 like as you were talking about it like 0:18:31.200,0:18:35.280 in the chat like ben marks was saying 0:18:33.520,0:18:37.679 i could never imagine using magento 2 0:18:35.280,0:18:40.400 for like a small simple store 0:18:37.679,0:18:41.280 and the whole purpose of your thing is 0:18:40.400,0:18:44.000 basically like 0:18:41.280,0:18:46.240 right tool for the job it's like hey pwa 0:18:44.000,0:18:47.039 is cool maybe for a twitter or a nike or 0:18:46.240,0:18:49.120 whatever 0:18:47.039,0:18:50.480 but you have to pick the right tool for 0:18:49.120,0:18:52.400 the job and for 0:18:50.480,0:18:54.160 a lot of these jobs that we're doing 0:18:52.400,0:18:57.679 it's like a website 0:18:54.160,0:19:00.080 is the right tool for the job um 0:18:57.679,0:19:01.280 and i thought it was it was like on 0:19:00.080,0:19:02.640 another level 0:19:01.280,0:19:05.120 right like you're totally right about 0:19:02.640,0:19:07.280 that but like on another level 0:19:05.120,0:19:08.559 it's like you're wanting to use magento 0:19:07.280,0:19:11.280 for something 0:19:08.559,0:19:12.400 that may be like is it the right tool 0:19:11.280,0:19:14.160 for the job you know what i mean like 0:19:12.400,0:19:17.120 what does shopify be 0:19:14.160,0:19:18.320 make more sense for that simple simple 0:19:17.120,0:19:21.360 shop yeah so that 0:19:18.320,0:19:24.640 that that depends also 0:19:21.360,0:19:25.280 on the implementer i guess and i think 0:19:24.640,0:19:28.080 we're 0:19:25.280,0:19:30.160 opening back up a space in a market 0:19:28.080,0:19:31.520 where smaller agencies or freelancers 0:19:30.160,0:19:35.280 can jump in 0:19:31.520,0:19:36.559 and that's where riker started probably 0:19:35.280,0:19:39.120 you also got started with 0:19:36.559,0:19:40.240 a smaller project low budget you make 0:19:39.120,0:19:43.440 mistakes 0:19:40.240,0:19:44.559 you fall you get up you learn and with 0:19:43.440,0:19:48.880 every new project 0:19:44.559,0:19:52.320 the price goes up with current magento 2 0:19:48.880,0:19:56.480 um that doesn't seem possible anymore 0:19:52.320,0:19:56.480 yeah especially if you're looking at pwa 0:19:56.720,0:19:59.760 everything becomes bespoke and the tech 0:19:59.200,0:20:01.679 stack 0:19:59.760,0:20:02.960 becomes bigger yeah and it was one of 0:20:01.679,0:20:07.600 the main things that 0:20:02.960,0:20:07.600 well i emphasized on during react again 0:20:07.919,0:20:12.400 we're not making things simpler and 0:20:10.559,0:20:14.640 quite the opposite 0:20:12.400,0:20:16.799 and that's not only performance or the 0:20:14.640,0:20:19.679 amount of javascript that we ship 0:20:16.799,0:20:21.919 the stack grows and it gets more 0:20:19.679,0:20:25.360 complicated and especially javascript 0:20:21.919,0:20:26.320 if if you look at the traditional 0:20:25.360,0:20:28.240 frontliners 0:20:26.320,0:20:29.840 they're quite intimidated by the amount 0:20:28.240,0:20:33.280 of javascript 0:20:29.840,0:20:34.159 that's in in pwas and they're not only 0:20:33.280,0:20:36.640 intimidated 0:20:34.159,0:20:38.480 it's just it's just hard to grasp some 0:20:36.640,0:20:42.880 things and we're not all james settling 0:20:38.480,0:20:45.760 who uh i have immense respect 0:20:42.880,0:20:46.400 yeah and i think it's really cool what 0:20:45.760,0:20:48.880 he does 0:20:46.400,0:20:50.880 and i'm super intrigued if i watch him 0:20:48.880,0:20:54.320 do stuff and 0:20:50.880,0:20:57.440 but that's not me that's not 0:20:54.320,0:21:00.799 i cannot perform on that level of 0:20:57.440,0:21:02.240 concentration the whole day sometimes 0:21:00.799,0:21:04.080 you need to dump things down a little 0:21:02.240,0:21:07.360 bit 0:21:04.080,0:21:11.039 yeah i mean in the end the 0:21:07.360,0:21:13.280 the fun in coding uh the fun in coding 0:21:11.039,0:21:14.640 is on the one hand puzzling figuring 0:21:13.280,0:21:16.480 stuff out 0:21:14.640,0:21:18.159 learning new stuff and having this 0:21:16.480,0:21:20.240 feeling of 0:21:18.159,0:21:22.240 accomplishment that you that that 0:21:20.240,0:21:24.799 something would have worked out 0:21:22.240,0:21:26.799 and you can have a certain amount of 0:21:24.799,0:21:27.840 that i know you code one hour a day now 0:21:26.799,0:21:29.600 and it's probably 0:21:27.840,0:21:31.200 that's reason because you need eight 0:21:29.600,0:21:34.400 hours to think to do 0:21:31.200,0:21:37.919 something really good in one hour um 0:21:34.400,0:21:41.120 that's not that good but it's 0:21:37.919,0:21:44.480 okay it's just 0:21:41.120,0:21:46.480 yeah and the rest of the day 0:21:44.480,0:21:47.760 ideally you would fill with things that 0:21:46.480,0:21:50.640 you've already learned 0:21:47.760,0:21:51.200 and that go easy and there's a lot of 0:21:50.640,0:21:53.600 fun of 0:21:51.200,0:21:55.200 in that as well to by the end of the day 0:21:53.600,0:21:57.520 have accomplished a lot of things 0:21:55.200,0:21:59.120 just build stuff yeah and have it flow 0:21:57.520,0:22:00.960 out of your fingers just smash the 0:21:59.120,0:22:02.799 keyboard and by the end of the day 0:22:00.960,0:22:04.960 you build a new feature and you have 0:22:02.799,0:22:09.200 something you can present to a client 0:22:04.960,0:22:09.679 and through the years magento has become 0:22:09.200,0:22:12.559 more of 0:22:09.679,0:22:13.919 more and more and more of just debugging 0:22:12.559,0:22:16.880 and debugging and spending 0:22:13.919,0:22:18.000 whole days of figuring out why something 0:22:16.880,0:22:20.960 doesn't work 0:22:18.000,0:22:22.000 and in our experience with pwa 0:22:20.960,0:22:23.760 especially with 0:22:22.000,0:22:25.200 middleware that comes in between where 0:22:23.760,0:22:28.080 there's a lot of logic 0:22:25.200,0:22:30.880 happening on in nodes and processes that 0:22:28.080,0:22:32.880 we don't understand as frontliners 0:22:30.880,0:22:34.559 and even our backenders had a lot of 0:22:32.880,0:22:36.240 issues um 0:22:34.559,0:22:37.760 understanding stuff for the paypal 0:22:36.240,0:22:41.120 integration where 0:22:37.760,0:22:44.400 simply data was lost somewhere 0:22:41.120,0:22:45.919 and we didn't know it was about a token 0:22:44.400,0:22:49.679 that wasn't persisted 0:22:45.919,0:22:52.240 or i don't even know but it took 0:22:49.679,0:22:53.760 way too long to figure it out and i've 0:22:52.240,0:22:56.799 heard stories of 0:22:53.760,0:23:00.000 seven figure um projects on 0:22:56.799,0:23:02.880 on pwa that 0:23:00.000,0:23:04.400 on a fixed budget that went over budget 0:23:02.880,0:23:08.640 like eight or nine times 0:23:04.400,0:23:12.240 yeah um on a extremely 0:23:08.640,0:23:15.280 um capable agency um 0:23:12.240,0:23:18.960 so you can't put that on on 0:23:15.280,0:23:20.000 incompetence um some highly respected 0:23:18.960,0:23:22.880 people 0:23:20.000,0:23:24.159 just not being able to deliver within 0:23:22.880,0:23:26.480 constraints 0:23:24.159,0:23:28.400 and of course everything is new we still 0:23:26.480,0:23:32.159 need to figure stuff out but 0:23:28.400,0:23:34.080 this is how are you supposed to do 0:23:32.159,0:23:34.840 something for a mid-market merchant with 0:23:34.080,0:23:38.080 this 0:23:34.840,0:23:42.320 technology um maybe in four years but 0:23:38.080,0:23:45.679 i wonder how much of all that javascript 0:23:42.320,0:23:47.440 is left in four years um 0:23:45.679,0:23:49.440 to me it really feels like we're back in 0:23:47.440,0:23:51.679 the era of flash development 0:23:49.440,0:23:53.279 and i really love that they're like i 0:23:51.679,0:23:56.000 thought that was a really 0:23:53.279,0:23:57.679 interesting parallel that you drew um 0:23:56.000,0:23:59.520 that you're like listen i remember when 0:23:57.679,0:24:02.720 i was doing flash and flex 0:23:59.520,0:24:03.120 app development and it feels similar to 0:24:02.720,0:24:05.200 that 0:24:03.120,0:24:06.159 everything is an app and then like for a 0:24:05.200,0:24:07.520 while 0:24:06.159,0:24:08.880 it was like there was a lot of people 0:24:07.520,0:24:09.600 that thought everything was going to be 0:24:08.880,0:24:11.520 flash 0:24:09.600,0:24:14.000 you know like let's make everything you 0:24:11.520,0:24:16.799 know and it was we did build everything 0:24:14.000,0:24:18.240 i mean whatever it was i would build it 0:24:16.799,0:24:21.840 with flash i would build a 0:24:18.240,0:24:25.200 php back-end with modix a 0:24:21.840,0:24:25.840 very simple cms i would generate xml 0:24:25.200,0:24:28.320 through 0:24:25.840,0:24:29.760 that cms and then flash would read the 0:24:28.320,0:24:33.360 xml 0:24:29.760,0:24:35.039 and you would have a full cms 0:24:33.360,0:24:36.640 flash would render the menu and the 0:24:35.039,0:24:38.720 content and everything and 0:24:36.640,0:24:40.559 it didn't really make sense but it was a 0:24:38.720,0:24:43.760 lot of fun to do 0:24:40.559,0:24:44.640 but then luckily we had steve jobs that 0:24:43.760,0:24:47.120 pulled the plug 0:24:44.640,0:24:47.760 and for pwa i don't know who it's going 0:24:47.120,0:24:50.880 to be but 0:24:47.760,0:24:53.120 um i have the feeling that this is going 0:24:50.880,0:24:56.000 to be a point where 0:24:53.120,0:24:57.039 well well the majority of people will 0:24:56.000,0:25:00.320 stand still 0:24:57.039,0:25:02.400 and think like how did we end up here 0:25:00.320,0:25:03.679 but the difference you know it's it's an 0:25:02.400,0:25:06.400 interesting parallel 0:25:03.679,0:25:06.720 right by the way yeah yeah it but the 0:25:06.400,0:25:10.080 the 0:25:06.720,0:25:12.480 the the huge difference is that 0:25:10.080,0:25:14.080 um a lot of the like pwa standards are 0:25:12.480,0:25:16.960 being driven by google 0:25:14.080,0:25:18.400 right google being sort of the the 0:25:16.960,0:25:20.159 company that has the most vested 0:25:18.400,0:25:24.240 interest in the web 0:25:20.159,0:25:26.159 um so and it's like you know a pwa by 0:25:24.240,0:25:28.320 strict definition is very simple it's 0:25:26.159,0:25:30.080 like you've got a worker and you've got 0:25:28.320,0:25:32.640 a couple features you can use it's like 0:25:30.080,0:25:34.880 yeah it can be very simple it's 0:25:32.640,0:25:39.760 somewhere on the road map 0:25:34.880,0:25:43.039 so and people say this 0:25:39.760,0:25:44.640 why why put this on pwa because pw 0:25:43.039,0:25:46.480 is just a manifest file and a service 0:25:44.640,0:25:47.039 worker right and they're absolutely 0:25:46.480,0:25:48.799 right 0:25:47.039,0:25:50.159 right and if you stick it on something 0:25:48.799,0:25:52.400 that's performant 0:25:50.159,0:25:53.919 um it's a great thing and having 0:25:52.400,0:25:55.919 notifications and 0:25:53.919,0:25:57.840 having background processes to fetch 0:25:55.919,0:25:59.679 data before someone actually goes to a 0:25:57.840,0:26:02.960 different page and offline mode 0:25:59.679,0:26:05.279 that's all very nice but currently pwa 0:26:02.960,0:26:07.840 is a synonym or 0:26:05.279,0:26:08.400 it's represented by javascript's 0:26:07.840,0:26:12.799 libraries 0:26:08.400,0:26:17.039 right right and um the promise of pwa 0:26:12.799,0:26:20.320 is speed and performance and 0:26:17.039,0:26:23.440 we're not seeing that exactly 0:26:20.320,0:26:25.840 and yeah i don't know i mean 0:26:23.440,0:26:25.840 um 0:26:26.480,0:26:30.480 maybe that maybe the technology will 0:26:28.960,0:26:33.440 will 0:26:30.480,0:26:34.640 move somewhere that you have a lower 0:26:33.440,0:26:37.840 payload when you 0:26:34.640,0:26:39.760 visit a page the first time and i mean 0:26:37.840,0:26:41.120 it pulls in different content when you 0:26:39.760,0:26:43.679 start navigating but 0:26:41.120,0:26:45.520 the amount of javascript that you need 0:26:43.679,0:26:49.760 to do the routing 0:26:45.520,0:26:50.720 to just fetch all the data there's so 0:26:49.760,0:26:52.799 many different 0:26:50.720,0:26:54.880 graphql calls that you need and you 0:26:52.799,0:26:58.159 somehow need to 0:26:54.880,0:26:59.600 persist that in the browser and it's all 0:26:58.159,0:27:03.120 just really complicated 0:26:59.600,0:27:03.120 and and it makes me wonder 0:27:03.520,0:27:06.640 you can talk an hour about how server 0:27:05.360,0:27:10.720 side rendering 0:27:06.640,0:27:13.440 uh can be built for bwa 0:27:10.720,0:27:14.559 defects issue that that wasn't an issue 0:27:13.440,0:27:17.520 in the first place 0:27:14.559,0:27:19.039 because the current magento front end 0:27:17.520,0:27:22.720 has server side running 0:27:19.039,0:27:24.799 yeah and i don't know did you get 0:27:22.720,0:27:27.120 i don't know how far you got in my talk 0:27:24.799,0:27:32.159 but uh i put in a small bun 0:27:27.120,0:27:33.919 um that um i built the first magento pws 0:27:32.159,0:27:35.520 oh i think i might have seen that yeah i 0:27:33.919,0:27:38.159 think i might have seen that 0:27:35.520,0:27:38.559 i was surprised that no one no one got 0:27:38.159,0:27:42.000 got 0:27:38.559,0:27:43.760 uh noticed noticed or or 0:27:42.000,0:27:45.440 said anything about that is it just 0:27:43.760,0:27:48.960 progressive website 0:27:45.440,0:27:52.159 is that the is that the joke no no no no 0:27:48.960,0:27:53.760 so before we do pwa we should do pws and 0:27:52.159,0:27:56.240 it stands for proper website 0:27:53.760,0:27:56.240 okay 0:27:57.679,0:28:02.640 i love it by the way your slides your 0:28:00.480,0:28:05.679 slides were great like 0:28:02.640,0:28:08.880 like uh the just the storytelling 0:28:05.679,0:28:10.559 of like the problem you had the problem 0:28:08.880,0:28:13.360 with your wife's store 0:28:10.559,0:28:16.399 like you had a lot of clever stuff in 0:28:13.360,0:28:18.320 there like don't lose your head and um 0:28:16.399,0:28:20.159 stuff like that the slides you had like 0:28:18.320,0:28:22.399 the light it was very data driven you 0:28:20.159,0:28:24.960 had all the lighthouse scores 0:28:22.399,0:28:26.799 um and you know the launch of your 0:28:24.960,0:28:28.840 product coincided with it so i thought 0:28:26.799,0:28:30.880 your slides and your and your talk were 0:28:28.840,0:28:32.320 great um 0:28:30.880,0:28:33.600 it's been a while since i've watched a 0:28:32.320,0:28:35.679 tech talk so i thought you did a really 0:28:33.600,0:28:38.000 good job with it 0:28:35.679,0:28:40.640 thanks thanks yeah did you have fun 0:28:38.000,0:28:43.919 putting it together 0:28:40.640,0:28:45.360 yeah so it was exhausting like i said i 0:28:43.919,0:28:46.810 spent two months just 0:28:45.360,0:28:48.480 laying awake 0:28:46.810,0:28:50.480 [Music] 0:28:48.480,0:28:51.840 having all this information in my head 0:28:50.480,0:28:53.919 and the 0:28:51.840,0:28:57.120 the small buns that i wanted to make and 0:28:53.919,0:29:00.000 i had these memes and i i made them up 0:28:57.120,0:29:01.440 like two months before and uh yeah yeah 0:29:00.000,0:29:03.679 then i would forget it again 0:29:01.440,0:29:05.200 and then i would i was just focusing on 0:29:03.679,0:29:06.559 keeping all that information together 0:29:05.200,0:29:08.159 and then trying to figure out 0:29:06.559,0:29:10.080 what the right order would be and how to 0:29:08.159,0:29:13.760 build it up and then how to do the 0:29:10.080,0:29:15.279 reveal and so um kind of have a 0:29:13.760,0:29:17.520 general tech talk and people would 0:29:15.279,0:29:19.600 expect me to to um 0:29:17.520,0:29:22.399 do one rebuild and it would be an 0:29:19.600,0:29:26.080 experiment and then 0:29:22.399,0:29:29.200 it's a product yeah yeah and uh it was 0:29:26.080,0:29:32.480 really good it really was 0:29:29.200,0:29:36.050 thanks yeah so much um 0:29:32.480,0:29:37.279 so much went into that um but um 0:29:36.050,0:29:39.679 [Music] 0:29:37.279,0:29:41.840 yeah the saturday before i sat down and 0:29:39.679,0:29:46.559 i just spent six hours putting together 0:29:41.840,0:29:49.840 slides and that was a lot of fun because 0:29:46.559,0:29:49.840 then i could literally just 0:29:50.080,0:29:56.080 offload my brain and 0:29:54.080,0:29:58.480 from there on i slept a lot better 0:29:56.080,0:30:00.559 because i i had a structure 0:29:58.480,0:30:02.480 i put everything down that that was 0:30:00.559,0:30:05.919 living in my head for such a long time 0:30:02.480,0:30:06.399 right and then well of course you have a 0:30:05.919,0:30:08.399 bit of 0:30:06.399,0:30:09.600 tension build up before such a 0:30:08.399,0:30:12.799 presentation but 0:30:09.600,0:30:15.279 i felt confident um because wow if 0:30:12.799,0:30:18.960 you're so deep into material 0:30:15.279,0:30:21.840 it's it's harder to stop talking than 0:30:18.960,0:30:23.360 to get started yeah i noticed i i 0:30:21.840,0:30:25.039 noticed that like you tweeted that you 0:30:23.360,0:30:26.880 were like meditating just before you 0:30:25.039,0:30:29.919 started the uh 0:30:26.880,0:30:32.559 the the presentation and um i've been 0:30:29.919,0:30:33.919 i've been um starting to do a little bit 0:30:32.559,0:30:35.200 of that myself and 0:30:33.919,0:30:37.360 so i'm always interested like i was 0:30:35.200,0:30:38.960 talking to uh laura falco about it and 0:30:37.360,0:30:41.600 she was saying she meditated so 0:30:38.960,0:30:42.080 i'm always curious to like ask people 0:30:41.600,0:30:45.039 about 0:30:42.080,0:30:45.840 you know what their meditation looks 0:30:45.039,0:30:49.039 like 0:30:45.840,0:30:53.279 um so i just um 0:30:49.039,0:30:55.600 i i tried using um the app the um 0:30:53.279,0:30:57.200 which one was it not calm but the other 0:30:55.600,0:30:58.960 one no 0:30:57.200,0:31:01.679 whatever the other one was but that was 0:30:58.960,0:31:01.679 about a year ago 0:31:03.039,0:31:06.960 it's uh what's it called um i can't 0:31:05.840,0:31:09.200 remember but 0:31:06.960,0:31:10.799 i tried using that about a year ago and 0:31:09.200,0:31:14.880 it has these like five 0:31:10.799,0:31:16.240 minute um uh like sessions 0:31:14.880,0:31:18.399 and so i was doing the five minute 0:31:16.240,0:31:20.559 sessions and it was like working 0:31:18.399,0:31:22.480 and then um and then i was like this is 0:31:20.559,0:31:24.000 great so then i like paid for it i was 0:31:22.480,0:31:26.080 on the like free version 0:31:24.000,0:31:27.200 and i like paid for it and then i got 0:31:26.080,0:31:29.279 like 10 minute 0:31:27.200,0:31:30.399 sessions and then the 10 minutes was 0:31:29.279,0:31:33.679 just too much 0:31:30.399,0:31:35.120 it was like i just got like frustrated 0:31:33.679,0:31:36.640 with it so then i kind of gave up that 0:31:35.120,0:31:39.840 was about a year ago 0:31:36.640,0:31:41.440 and then i kept hearing about it and so 0:31:39.840,0:31:43.279 recently i just 0:31:41.440,0:31:45.279 it's the way i do now is just simpler i 0:31:43.279,0:31:49.440 just i play some music and i just 0:31:45.279,0:31:50.640 sit and you know try not to think or 0:31:49.440,0:31:53.679 sometimes i'll try to 0:31:50.640,0:31:54.559 like visualize something but i just kind 0:31:53.679,0:31:56.399 of do it throughout 0:31:54.559,0:31:58.000 like like a lot of times before podcasts 0:31:56.399,0:32:00.399 i'll do it a little bit as well 0:31:58.000,0:32:02.799 just kind of yeah get centered a little 0:32:00.399,0:32:03.919 bit i just went for a quick walk before 0:32:02.799,0:32:06.399 we got started 0:32:03.919,0:32:06.960 uh just spent some time away from the 0:32:06.399,0:32:09.919 screen 0:32:06.960,0:32:10.640 yeah so helps a lot i always thought 0:32:09.919,0:32:14.000 that for me 0:32:10.640,0:32:15.600 the best way um and to 0:32:14.000,0:32:17.200 empty my hat was actually to do 0:32:15.600,0:32:20.159 something 0:32:17.200,0:32:21.679 and uh i've been on and off doing things 0:32:20.159,0:32:23.760 like climbing 0:32:21.679,0:32:25.679 i did that defended the lot bordering so 0:32:23.760,0:32:27.519 actually going into the woods and 0:32:25.679,0:32:29.919 put down a mattress in the middle of the 0:32:27.519,0:32:33.279 woods and just start climbing a rock 0:32:29.919,0:32:36.880 and that's cool and things like 0:32:33.279,0:32:38.559 gardening or um when it's sports 0:32:36.880,0:32:39.919 i i really need something that takes 0:32:38.559,0:32:42.720 high attention like 0:32:39.919,0:32:44.880 playing squash because then as soon as 0:32:42.720,0:32:48.320 you step into the box 0:32:44.880,0:32:49.679 and uh and the ball you hit the ball 0:32:48.320,0:32:51.840 you're gone you need your full 0:32:49.679,0:32:55.360 concentration to be in the game 0:32:51.840,0:32:59.120 yeah and then if i if i have an hour of 0:32:55.360,0:33:00.960 playing squash um my my body is drained 0:32:59.120,0:33:03.679 my mind is empty 0:33:00.960,0:33:04.720 that that works really well but that's 0:33:03.679,0:33:08.720 kind of putting 0:33:04.720,0:33:11.120 putting um putting everything on hold in 0:33:08.720,0:33:13.279 your mind it's not 0:33:11.120,0:33:14.880 i think it also sometimes helps in the 0:33:13.279,0:33:17.519 process of meditating 0:33:14.880,0:33:19.600 to to get your mind in order and it's 0:33:17.519,0:33:20.320 not necessarily always just trying not 0:33:19.600,0:33:22.240 to think 0:33:20.320,0:33:24.000 or something and cleaning your head but 0:33:22.240,0:33:27.760 it could also help just focusing 0:33:24.000,0:33:30.960 on um emotions 0:33:27.760,0:33:33.200 um if 0:33:30.960,0:33:35.039 if you're not feeling okay or if there's 0:33:33.200,0:33:35.440 something you you don't know exactly 0:33:35.039,0:33:37.919 what 0:33:35.440,0:33:38.640 it it can help just to sit just to sit 0:33:37.919,0:33:41.760 and 0:33:38.640,0:33:42.240 and see why and how your body is doing 0:33:41.760,0:33:46.080 and 0:33:42.240,0:33:52.799 where the pains are it's um 0:33:46.080,0:33:56.240 when was in finland 12 14 years ago 0:33:52.799,0:33:58.080 yeah some maybe some ten years ago um 0:33:56.240,0:34:00.399 i remembered that the first times that i 0:33:58.080,0:34:03.600 really tried to do meditating was there 0:34:00.399,0:34:05.039 um my wife was on a dance education 0:34:03.600,0:34:07.519 there she's dutch but she 0:34:05.039,0:34:08.399 she moved to finland for the dance 0:34:07.519,0:34:12.159 education i 0:34:08.399,0:34:15.119 i just followed and it would be fun um 0:34:12.159,0:34:16.320 and there was a lot of this uh 0:34:15.119,0:34:17.839 open-minded 0:34:16.320,0:34:21.839 business going on there with 0:34:17.839,0:34:21.839 international students 0:34:22.159,0:34:27.040 and i don't mean i don't mean sex and 0:34:25.040,0:34:30.320 drugs but 0:34:27.040,0:34:33.359 yeah very alternative yeah 0:34:30.320,0:34:35.520 yeah and that that's really 0:34:33.359,0:34:37.760 opened me up for a lot of things as well 0:34:35.520,0:34:37.760 um 0:34:38.560,0:34:42.399 and i i remember first time trying to 0:34:40.560,0:34:43.359 meditating was there with a group of 0:34:42.399,0:34:46.480 students and they 0:34:43.359,0:34:48.399 fought once a week in the evening we we 0:34:46.480,0:34:50.320 go and do a meditation together 0:34:48.399,0:34:51.599 we do a guided one with the recorded 0:34:50.320,0:34:53.440 session and 0:34:51.599,0:34:54.720 i remember just sitting there and 0:34:53.440,0:34:58.160 thinking there was 0:34:54.720,0:35:01.440 a way i supposed to sit like on my knees 0:34:58.160,0:35:03.920 and the back straight and 0:35:01.440,0:35:05.440 just really doing it properly like 0:35:03.920,0:35:07.920 there's rules for it 0:35:05.440,0:35:09.440 and i just remember my back would hurt 0:35:07.920,0:35:11.119 and i couldn't get my mind off 0:35:09.440,0:35:12.960 of my back and then my knees started to 0:35:11.119,0:35:14.720 hurt and then my feet and 0:35:12.960,0:35:16.880 my my legs started sleeping and i was 0:35:14.720,0:35:20.000 like oh my god this is nothing for me 0:35:16.880,0:35:23.359 yeah yeah and um 0:35:20.000,0:35:26.400 so my my um the parents of my wife 0:35:23.359,0:35:28.400 um or her father is a teacher in 0:35:26.400,0:35:29.440 mindfulness it has been for quite some 0:35:28.400,0:35:32.560 years now 0:35:29.440,0:35:35.920 um so we're a bit in that uh 0:35:32.560,0:35:40.320 in that area yeah so 0:35:35.920,0:35:42.880 i've learned a bit from that um and um 0:35:40.320,0:35:44.160 yeah don't make it so hard on yourself 0:35:42.880,0:35:46.000 um 0:35:44.160,0:35:47.520 i mean it's all about being gentle to 0:35:46.000,0:35:49.359 yourself so why put yourself on 0:35:47.520,0:35:51.119 restrictions how you would sit 0:35:49.359,0:35:52.720 yeah if you're more comfortable sitting 0:35:51.119,0:35:55.280 on your butt just sit on your butt 0:35:52.720,0:35:56.480 yeah and if there's faults just accept 0:35:55.280,0:35:58.960 the thoughts just don't 0:35:56.480,0:36:00.400 don't criticize them and don't don't 0:35:58.960,0:36:02.079 push too hard and 0:36:00.400,0:36:04.560 the more time you spend the easier it 0:36:02.079,0:36:06.240 gets but now it sounds like i'm just 0:36:04.560,0:36:07.839 meditating all the time but i'm just 0:36:06.240,0:36:11.040 using it whenever when 0:36:07.839,0:36:12.880 whenever the heat is there yeah 0:36:11.040,0:36:15.119 i have this whole thing with my burnout 0:36:12.880,0:36:19.119 here three four years ago where 0:36:15.119,0:36:21.440 it was a much bigger thing for me um 0:36:19.119,0:36:26.000 nowadays my my mind is a lot stronger i 0:36:21.440,0:36:28.880 can endure a lot more so um 0:36:26.000,0:36:29.680 yeah not not doing it too much yeah at 0:36:28.880,0:36:32.000 the moment but 0:36:29.680,0:36:33.520 that's good yeah before reacticon has 0:36:32.000,0:36:35.680 just so much build up that 0:36:33.520,0:36:38.320 it really helped just to it does take 0:36:35.680,0:36:40.560 some calmness before uh before jumping 0:36:38.320,0:36:42.400 yeah you seem um i think this is the 0:36:40.560,0:36:45.760 first time we've actually talked 0:36:42.400,0:36:48.320 but um yeah you uh 0:36:45.760,0:36:49.119 you seem very i'm just i'm stealing i'm 0:36:48.320,0:36:52.000 stealing 0:36:49.119,0:36:52.960 um the mic all the time no no no i just 0:36:52.000,0:36:54.960 like to talk and 0:36:52.960,0:36:56.560 immediately like there's something that 0:36:54.960,0:36:58.560 i thought of that i want to say and 0:36:56.560,0:37:00.560 i love it i'm gonna let you talk no no 0:36:58.560,0:37:04.320 no i really love it man it's that's what 0:37:00.560,0:37:04.320 that's what uh that's what i'm here for 0:37:06.839,0:37:11.280 um 0:37:09.680,0:37:12.880 i was just gonna say you do seem very 0:37:11.280,0:37:14.480 like centered and even in your 0:37:12.880,0:37:16.560 even in your talk like you just seem 0:37:14.480,0:37:19.040 very kind of centered 0:37:16.560,0:37:20.480 uh that was all i was gonna say but now 0:37:19.040,0:37:22.160 i'm curious to know what you were about 0:37:20.480,0:37:24.880 to say 0:37:22.160,0:37:26.240 yeah so when i was walking to to get 0:37:24.880,0:37:29.280 something to eat 0:37:26.240,0:37:31.040 since it's friday evening here 0:37:29.280,0:37:33.760 just before we called i was walking i 0:37:31.040,0:37:36.000 was thinking it's 0:37:33.760,0:37:38.079 maybe a few days apart but almost 0:37:36.000,0:37:39.680 exactly a year ago was the first time i 0:37:38.079,0:37:42.800 met philip 0:37:39.680,0:37:42.800 at the mleu 0:37:42.960,0:37:46.800 and almost a full year later i think 0:37:44.960,0:37:47.520 that was somewhere four or five days ago 0:37:46.800,0:37:50.880 it was 0:37:47.520,0:37:53.440 i saw on instagram i got a reminder from 0:37:50.880,0:37:54.320 one year ago uh what was this great body 0:37:53.440,0:37:57.359 in amsterdam 0:37:54.320,0:37:58.560 nice so yeah yeah the first time philip 0:37:57.359,0:38:00.960 first time you 0:37:58.560,0:38:01.760 um a lot of first terms everything a lot 0:38:00.960,0:38:04.800 of first times 0:38:01.760,0:38:08.079 yeah um so 0:38:04.800,0:38:12.240 uh jumping back to the um 0:38:08.079,0:38:12.240 to haiva how do you pronounce it again 0:38:13.359,0:38:18.880 okay uh 0:38:16.640,0:38:18.880 hold 0:38:24.160,0:38:29.040 get my attention away from it for 42 0:38:27.520,0:38:33.040 minutes 0:38:29.040,0:38:34.720 say my name managed to go this whole 0:38:33.040,0:38:35.440 thing see that's how that's how good i 0:38:34.720,0:38:37.599 am 0:38:35.440,0:38:39.440 without even doing the issue it's it's a 0:38:37.599,0:38:40.560 villain i mean it's not that complicated 0:38:39.440,0:38:43.599 right 0:38:40.560,0:38:45.599 yeah yeah yeah all right 0:38:43.599,0:38:47.040 i don't understand the difference how 0:38:45.599,0:38:51.280 long did you practice 0:38:47.040,0:38:53.520 i practiced it like five times 0:38:51.280,0:38:54.960 i definitely did some practicing but i 0:38:53.520,0:38:58.160 don't understand 0:38:54.960,0:39:01.440 the difference between a w and a v in 0:38:58.160,0:39:05.359 in the way you guys pronounce 0:39:01.440,0:39:09.040 yeah the way we pronounce it okay 0:39:05.359,0:39:09.040 it's it sounds like a v 0:39:11.839,0:39:15.839 what what 0:39:19.230,0:39:22.409 [Music] 0:39:24.560,0:39:31.520 and if you say very 0:39:28.640,0:39:32.560 i think i see i think funny anecdotes so 0:39:31.520,0:39:36.800 in finland 0:39:32.560,0:39:40.160 they write it with a v yes 0:39:36.800,0:39:43.119 and it's written with a v v m v i l e 0:39:40.160,0:39:44.079 right right but yeah we have a w same as 0:39:43.119,0:39:46.400 you guys and it's 0:39:44.079,0:39:49.760 pronounced pretty much the same okay all 0:39:46.400,0:39:49.760 right i'll take your word 0:39:52.640,0:39:56.160 uh i spoke to someone from space 48 this 0:39:55.760,0:40:00.480 week 0:39:56.160,0:40:02.560 uh also talking about uh and um 0:40:00.480,0:40:04.560 he had the same the the the same 0:40:02.560,0:40:08.880 struggle that you 0:40:04.560,0:40:10.960 how how how did you just say it alva 0:40:08.880,0:40:10.960 i 0:40:15.760,0:40:20.000 yeah exactly so um this guy from space 0:40:19.440,0:40:22.160 48 0:40:20.000,0:40:23.040 he was like yes so that's my association 0:40:22.160,0:40:26.160 so i thought 0:40:23.040,0:40:27.839 it was a bit like hoover which is the 0:40:26.160,0:40:31.280 vacuum cleaner yes it's like 0:40:27.839,0:40:36.930 yes image of hoover 0:40:31.280,0:40:45.359 your team sucking up all the dirt 0:40:36.930,0:40:48.160 [Laughter] 0:40:45.359,0:40:49.119 so how is um all the traction going i i 0:40:48.160,0:40:51.280 know you mentioned you were talking to 0:40:49.119,0:40:53.760 somebody from space 48 there's a lot of 0:40:51.280,0:40:54.960 buzz um are you getting some good 0:40:53.760,0:40:58.079 interest from uh 0:40:54.960,0:40:59.040 from people since your launch yeah i'm 0:40:58.079,0:41:01.920 just stalling 0:40:59.040,0:41:03.040 i'm just stalling because um not that 0:41:01.920,0:41:06.160 the product wouldn't be 0:41:03.040,0:41:09.760 ready enough but i got 0:41:06.160,0:41:13.119 so much interest that 0:41:09.760,0:41:14.560 i didn't dare to do this on a freelance 0:41:13.119,0:41:17.280 basis 0:41:14.560,0:41:18.960 which originally was the idea to do 0:41:17.280,0:41:20.400 until the end of the year at least to 0:41:18.960,0:41:22.640 keep it freelance 0:41:20.400,0:41:24.319 set a few licenses and then do a proper 0:41:22.640,0:41:26.480 launch somewhere in the beginning of 0:41:24.319,0:41:30.240 next year 0:41:26.480,0:41:33.599 and then my inbox one day later and 0:41:30.240,0:41:35.440 a week later told me 0:41:33.599,0:41:37.040 i better i better put up a proper 0:41:35.440,0:41:40.240 organization so 0:41:37.040,0:41:43.680 um that's what i'm doing um 0:41:40.240,0:41:45.520 i did i did get a few 0:41:43.680,0:41:46.839 people in because i wanted some quality 0:41:45.520,0:41:50.079 assurance 0:41:46.839,0:41:50.480 um and have some people put their hands 0:41:50.079,0:41:53.599 on it 0:41:50.480,0:41:55.760 and and see if they're 0:41:53.599,0:41:57.520 well my only the only thing that i knew 0:41:55.760,0:41:59.520 was that 0:41:57.520,0:42:01.680 my employer and my colleagues and the 0:41:59.520,0:42:05.119 guys at algantos 0:42:01.680,0:42:08.400 they were super enthusiastic um 0:42:05.119,0:42:11.520 and um i wasn't sure 0:42:08.400,0:42:12.960 i wasn't sure if i kind of got the 0:42:11.520,0:42:16.400 imposter syndrome like 0:42:12.960,0:42:17.200 is it i mean i think it's it's fantastic 0:42:16.400,0:42:18.800 and i haven't 0:42:17.200,0:42:20.640 so much fun to do everything and 0:42:18.800,0:42:23.520 everything seems super simple and 0:42:20.640,0:42:25.440 it's it's it's like my own dream like i 0:42:23.520,0:42:28.960 built my own dream template 0:42:25.440,0:42:33.040 and uh yeah probably it is for 0:42:28.960,0:42:35.839 all the well for most developers but um 0:42:33.040,0:42:36.880 what what if i sell 50 licenses before 0:42:35.839,0:42:39.470 the end of the year 0:42:36.880,0:42:40.960 and uh 40 of them hate it 0:42:39.470,0:42:43.920 [Music] 0:42:40.960,0:42:44.800 um yeah that's awesome that's always a 0:42:43.920,0:42:47.359 fear 0:42:44.800,0:42:48.240 i was going to say i think that if 0:42:47.359,0:42:50.400 you're 0:42:48.240,0:42:51.760 if you're enjoying the development 0:42:50.400,0:42:53.760 process 0:42:51.760,0:42:55.520 and you're also productive right those 0:42:53.760,0:42:56.720 two things combined right you could be 0:42:55.520,0:42:57.680 enjoying it but you're not getting 0:42:56.720,0:42:59.680 anything done 0:42:57.680,0:43:01.040 but if you're enjoying it and you're and 0:42:59.680,0:43:02.960 you're shipping 0:43:01.040,0:43:04.640 there's something powerful there because 0:43:02.960,0:43:06.319 like you said it's like 0:43:04.640,0:43:07.839 yeah of course as a developer you're 0:43:06.319,0:43:08.880 going to have struggles and challenges 0:43:07.839,0:43:10.880 but 0:43:08.880,0:43:12.079 when developers love their tools when 0:43:10.880,0:43:15.440 they're excited about 0:43:12.079,0:43:17.200 the tools it makes a huge difference 0:43:15.440,0:43:19.280 you know it makes a mess you have to you 0:43:17.200,0:43:21.920 have to struggle with the right things 0:43:19.280,0:43:23.680 yeah and they have to be solvable yeah 0:43:21.920,0:43:26.880 and there has to be an end to it 0:43:23.680,0:43:31.200 and the reason i burned out was because 0:43:26.880,0:43:34.240 there was no end to the issues 0:43:31.200,0:43:37.440 that that it would just pile up 0:43:34.240,0:43:40.480 and that was magenta 2.0 and there was 0:43:37.440,0:43:42.240 there was no decompression like i went 0:43:40.480,0:43:44.480 to sleep and i woke up in the morning 0:43:42.240,0:43:46.880 with issues that my customers had 0:43:44.480,0:43:48.480 and there was no solution there's just 0:43:46.880,0:43:50.640 constant debugging 0:43:48.480,0:43:53.440 and there's a lot of stress in it 0:43:50.640,0:43:54.880 there's a lot of energy going into it 0:43:53.440,0:43:56.960 and you just there's no moments where 0:43:54.880,0:43:59.599 you can actually relax 0:43:56.960,0:44:01.440 and that's luckily far behind and 0:43:59.599,0:44:02.560 magenta is in a much better place right 0:44:01.440,0:44:06.319 now 0:44:02.560,0:44:09.440 2.3 2.4 or really decent 0:44:06.319,0:44:13.520 we just have a crap from them um but but 0:44:09.440,0:44:17.200 the the the back end development um um 0:44:13.520,0:44:20.000 um it's it's a nice 0:44:17.200,0:44:20.560 it's it's nice it's good it's pretty 0:44:20.000,0:44:23.280 stable 0:44:20.560,0:44:25.200 of course there's still issues um but 0:44:23.280,0:44:25.760 you can see if you put a proper front 0:44:25.200,0:44:29.200 end 0:44:25.760,0:44:33.359 before it it's in front of it it's fast 0:44:29.200,0:44:35.599 and yeah it's finally 0:44:33.359,0:44:37.040 the feeling i got the feeling back that 0:44:35.599,0:44:40.400 i had 10 years ago 0:44:37.040,0:44:42.960 building just just bespoke products 0:44:40.400,0:44:43.680 just like getting started and build 0:44:42.960,0:44:46.319 stuff and just 0:44:43.680,0:44:48.000 make things up and and be productive 0:44:46.319,0:44:49.440 like you said and yeah of course you're 0:44:48.000,0:44:51.280 gonna have struggles because it's 0:44:49.440,0:44:53.920 magenta there's complexity 0:44:51.280,0:44:55.200 but that's what drives complexity drives 0:44:53.920,0:44:58.480 me especially if i can 0:44:55.200,0:45:02.480 reduce it to something simple 0:44:58.480,0:45:04.480 but yeah 0:45:02.480,0:45:06.400 there needs to be a solution to your 0:45:04.480,0:45:09.280 issues 0:45:06.400,0:45:11.119 yeah no that's that's cool that you're 0:45:09.280,0:45:13.599 that you're feeling motivated and 0:45:11.119,0:45:15.359 and enjoying the development um you 0:45:13.599,0:45:16.319 mentioned like your burnout and i 0:45:15.359,0:45:18.990 remember 0:45:16.319,0:45:20.079 hearing from you about that and um 0:45:18.990,0:45:23.359 [Music] 0:45:20.079,0:45:25.920 you had your own agency if i recall and 0:45:23.359,0:45:27.680 uh yeah that that was i remember 0:45:25.920,0:45:29.440 thinking about that from time to time 0:45:27.680,0:45:31.359 and like feeling like man 0:45:29.440,0:45:33.359 and and i remember you telling me it was 0:45:31.359,0:45:34.800 it was kind of magento too that sort of 0:45:33.359,0:45:37.599 did it because you had a couple 0:45:34.800,0:45:38.319 or maybe one big project and it's just 0:45:37.599,0:45:41.040 all these 0:45:38.319,0:45:42.319 bugs and stuff that just kind of killed 0:45:41.040,0:45:44.640 um 0:45:42.319,0:45:46.160 things for you and i'm i'm really glad 0:45:44.640,0:45:49.440 that you're doing so much better now 0:45:46.160,0:45:53.280 you know it's good to see yeah me too 0:45:49.440,0:45:56.400 it's um i don't know it has something of 0:45:53.280,0:45:56.400 a stockholm syndrome 0:45:57.119,0:46:00.960 sticking with magento yeah 0:45:59.470,0:46:04.319 [Music] 0:46:00.960,0:46:06.880 but that's that's less and less pain 0:46:04.319,0:46:07.359 and uh it's a more healthy relationship 0:46:06.880,0:46:10.720 now 0:46:07.359,0:46:13.119 um it's just um yeah 0:46:10.720,0:46:14.160 i i hope we can revive more of the 0:46:13.119,0:46:17.680 community 0:46:14.160,0:46:19.920 and one of the things that 0:46:17.680,0:46:21.520 really given me a kick right now is the 0:46:19.920,0:46:23.839 amount of 0:46:21.520,0:46:26.400 people that have contacted me that kind 0:46:23.839,0:46:29.680 of abandoned magento 0:46:26.400,0:46:30.560 publicly or non-public um and are 0:46:29.680,0:46:34.160 contacting me 0:46:30.560,0:46:36.160 like well it's looks like we might have 0:46:34.160,0:46:38.000 fun again doing magenta stuff and we're 0:46:36.160,0:46:40.560 super interested to try it again 0:46:38.000,0:46:43.200 because we miss the great old days of 0:46:40.560,0:46:46.720 doing magento and 0:46:43.200,0:46:51.200 from from what we've seen it looks like 0:46:46.720,0:46:52.880 it could be fun again and um 0:46:51.200,0:46:54.880 yeah part of part of what i'm trying to 0:46:52.880,0:46:57.040 do is build a community 0:46:54.880,0:46:58.640 within within the licensees and the 0:46:57.040,0:47:01.599 agencies that will join 0:46:58.640,0:47:02.079 um we have a handful of them people that 0:47:01.599,0:47:04.480 i 0:47:02.079,0:47:06.160 fully trusted with with having to look 0:47:04.480,0:47:07.920 at the code and trying it out so 0:47:06.160,0:47:09.599 there's a handful of people from 0:47:07.920,0:47:10.000 different agencies that are currently 0:47:09.599,0:47:13.680 checking 0:47:10.000,0:47:15.359 it and 0:47:13.680,0:47:18.560 yeah you can already see the interaction 0:47:15.359,0:47:20.559 and people being excited and 0:47:18.560,0:47:22.800 yeah that really gives me hope for the 0:47:20.559,0:47:24.559 future that we can build out a 0:47:22.800,0:47:26.480 proper community and people sharing 0:47:24.559,0:47:27.920 things like one of the downsides of my 0:47:26.480,0:47:30.000 system is that 0:47:27.920,0:47:31.280 we need to rewrite some stuff for third 0:47:30.000,0:47:33.119 party modules 0:47:31.280,0:47:34.960 so the presentation layer so the 0:47:33.119,0:47:37.359 template part of course 0:47:34.960,0:47:38.319 we won't have require js knockout and 0:47:37.359,0:47:41.920 jquery 0:47:38.319,0:47:45.680 and so whatever plugin you install 0:47:41.920,0:47:47.280 or module you install it will break 0:47:45.680,0:47:49.599 and you need to rewrite some of the 0:47:47.280,0:47:51.680 javascript but 0:47:49.599,0:47:54.000 there also lies the power that we can 0:47:51.680,0:47:58.000 actually still install plugins 0:47:54.000,0:47:58.000 and the whole headless thing 0:47:58.640,0:48:02.160 brings us into territory where 0:48:00.240,0:48:04.079 everything is bespoke 0:48:02.160,0:48:05.200 um there's currently just there's no 0:48:04.079,0:48:08.640 plugins just 0:48:05.200,0:48:11.520 slowly as some plug-in mechanisms 0:48:08.640,0:48:12.559 are being put in place but from what 0:48:11.520,0:48:15.280 i've seen 0:48:12.559,0:48:16.880 uh all the successful pwa integrations 0:48:15.280,0:48:19.839 are completely bespoke they rip 0:48:16.880,0:48:22.160 everything out and rebuild it and and 0:48:19.839,0:48:25.839 there's a lot of custom work involved 0:48:22.160,0:48:26.640 and with with keeping the current front 0:48:25.839,0:48:28.480 end we can keep 0:48:26.640,0:48:30.559 everything that we like and enjoy to 0:48:28.480,0:48:32.839 work with and the lovely springs 0:48:30.559,0:48:35.040 actually come back from a gentle one the 0:48:32.839,0:48:37.690 xml 0:48:35.040,0:48:39.200 working with blocks and stuff and 0:48:37.690,0:48:41.359 [Music] 0:48:39.200,0:48:42.720 yeah it's it's great it's a great 0:48:41.359,0:48:45.920 exercise to simplify 0:48:42.720,0:48:48.480 those layers i'm trying to really reduce 0:48:45.920,0:48:51.520 the complexity of the xml 0:48:48.480,0:48:55.200 no no 100 level deep 0:48:51.520,0:48:58.720 nested xml tags 0:48:55.200,0:49:00.400 and yeah keeping the great things 0:48:58.720,0:49:02.960 that we're enjoying that we know and 0:49:00.400,0:49:06.160 then use the best tools to get you on 0:49:02.960,0:49:07.839 your way as quick as possible 0:49:06.160,0:49:10.079 one of the responses from my colleagues 0:49:07.839,0:49:10.079 was 0:49:11.760,0:49:17.520 the fact that she could actually just 0:49:14.880,0:49:19.040 build stuff without constraints yeah and 0:49:17.520,0:49:22.800 the basis is solid 0:49:19.040,0:49:24.319 and with alpine uh it's so similar to 0:49:22.800,0:49:26.319 view so especially if you have 0:49:24.319,0:49:28.640 experience with few js 0:49:26.319,0:49:30.000 you're on your way within a day you're 0:49:28.640,0:49:32.960 building components 0:49:30.000,0:49:35.760 and we use graphql where it makes sense 0:49:32.960,0:49:38.640 graphical is super fast it can be cached 0:49:35.760,0:49:39.920 you can load stuff asynchronously it's 0:49:38.640,0:49:44.319 it's uh 0:49:39.920,0:49:46.800 it's ajax calls and steroids um 0:49:44.319,0:49:49.280 so that's that's taking the best part of 0:49:46.800,0:49:52.480 of the the new generation magento 0:49:49.280,0:49:53.520 um and at the same time we have 0:49:52.480,0:49:56.000 backwards 0:49:53.520,0:49:57.280 compatibility with the old mechanisms 0:49:56.000,0:49:59.200 like the section data 0:49:57.280,0:50:00.960 i know you know how familiar you are 0:49:59.200,0:50:04.240 with the 0:50:00.960,0:50:05.040 customer section data well let's just 0:50:04.240,0:50:08.480 work with it 0:50:05.040,0:50:11.520 we'll we'll know um we we 0:50:08.480,0:50:14.400 well in short magento keeps your your 0:50:11.520,0:50:16.800 customer specific data in local storage 0:50:14.400,0:50:18.559 it pulls data in with ajax and then 0:50:16.800,0:50:19.760 stores your customer information your 0:50:18.559,0:50:22.480 card data 0:50:19.760,0:50:23.920 um such kind of things it's stored in 0:50:22.480,0:50:26.480 local storage and only if it's 0:50:23.920,0:50:27.760 invalidated it pulls it pulls a newer 0:50:26.480,0:50:31.839 version from the server 0:50:27.760,0:50:34.640 oh okay so a lot of third-party modules 0:50:31.839,0:50:35.599 utilize that so for example a google tag 0:50:34.640,0:50:37.760 manager 0:50:35.599,0:50:39.520 it looks at that local storage data and 0:50:37.760,0:50:40.880 pulls in the customer name 0:50:39.520,0:50:43.680 and their items that they have in the 0:50:40.880,0:50:45.280 cart and we actually rebuild one of 0:50:43.680,0:50:47.839 those stack manager plugins 0:50:45.280,0:50:49.119 uh within two hours to make it 0:50:47.839,0:50:52.160 compatible with viva 0:50:49.119,0:50:53.920 yeah um so that's that's just taking the 0:50:52.160,0:50:54.640 logic that's already there from the old 0:50:53.920,0:50:58.079 front end 0:50:54.640,0:51:01.440 um and uh strip everything out that's 0:50:58.079,0:51:03.920 that's uh that comes from the library 0:51:01.440,0:51:04.960 so that's that's that's low dash and and 0:51:03.920,0:51:06.640 uh 0:51:04.960,0:51:08.240 what else different things to do 0:51:06.640,0:51:10.400 manipulations and on 0:51:08.240,0:51:12.800 objects and arrays and the modern 0:51:10.400,0:51:15.040 browsers can do all this stuff so 0:51:12.800,0:51:16.480 just throw it out yeah it's kind of 0:51:15.040,0:51:18.880 great like it's kind of crazy how you're 0:51:16.480,0:51:20.240 saying like so much of of 0:51:18.880,0:51:22.000 of what hap what's happening with 0:51:20.240,0:51:24.559 headless people are just throwing 0:51:22.000,0:51:26.240 out all a lot of the functionality that 0:51:24.559,0:51:27.680 they used to have they used to have 20 0:51:26.240,0:51:28.720 or 30 plugins and they're just going 0:51:27.680,0:51:31.040 like 0:51:28.720,0:51:33.040 let's just get rid of most of this see 0:51:31.040,0:51:36.079 what we can do without 0:51:33.040,0:51:38.240 and build something nice and clean and 0:51:36.079,0:51:39.440 fast and the ux is clean everything's 0:51:38.240,0:51:41.680 clean i mean 0:51:39.440,0:51:43.760 i'm sure if it was simple they would 0:51:41.680,0:51:45.359 have more features in pwa 0:51:43.760,0:51:48.480 but they're just they're not even at the 0:51:45.359,0:51:51.040 point yet that they have to base things 0:51:48.480,0:51:52.000 ready and adoptable and that things 0:51:51.040,0:51:55.280 won't 0:51:52.000,0:51:57.920 change and break in the next updates um 0:51:55.280,0:51:59.119 and uh yeah the foundation isn't quite i 0:51:57.920,0:52:03.599 feel like it's not quite 0:51:59.119,0:52:03.599 strong enough you know it's not quite 0:52:05.680,0:52:09.680 um one thing that i really appreciate 0:52:08.480,0:52:11.680 from the magento and 0:52:09.680,0:52:14.319 adobe side is that they haven't shipped 0:52:11.680,0:52:17.359 it yet while it's not ready 0:52:14.319,0:52:18.000 i mean the thing that can get me most 0:52:17.359,0:52:21.680 upset 0:52:18.000,0:52:24.240 about magento is the release of 2.0 0:52:21.680,0:52:24.800 it that basically well we didn't dive 0:52:24.240,0:52:28.079 into that 0:52:24.800,0:52:29.920 and let's leave it also but um 0:52:28.079,0:52:31.200 my burnout had everything to do with 0:52:29.920,0:52:33.119 magenta 2.0 0:52:31.200,0:52:34.559 there was a lot of things around that 0:52:33.119,0:52:37.680 that were 0:52:34.559,0:52:40.880 wrong timing for me but magenta too was 0:52:37.680,0:52:44.640 uh at the foundation of my my 0:52:40.880,0:52:46.960 my burnout um and i don't know 0:52:44.640,0:52:48.559 who decided at magento that they should 0:52:46.960,0:52:51.760 release 2.0 0:52:48.559,0:52:52.720 um but it wasn't done it wasn't ready 0:52:51.760,0:52:54.480 and they knew it 0:52:52.720,0:52:56.480 and they just thought well we'll figure 0:52:54.480,0:52:57.280 it out we'll push it and the community 0:52:56.480,0:53:00.160 will help us 0:52:57.280,0:53:01.599 get the box out and we need to ship it 0:53:00.160,0:53:02.480 and we need to start make money with 0:53:01.599,0:53:05.440 this because 0:53:02.480,0:53:06.720 we spent too much time developing this 0:53:05.440,0:53:09.760 so 0:53:06.720,0:53:10.240 the positive thing i want to say about 0:53:09.760,0:53:12.160 this 0:53:10.240,0:53:14.079 is that they haven't done this with pwa 0:53:12.160,0:53:16.960 yet and that i really 0:53:14.079,0:53:18.160 appreciate um imagine they would have 0:53:16.960,0:53:21.839 shipped bwa 0:53:18.160,0:53:24.640 a year ago while it wasn't ready 0:53:21.839,0:53:26.319 um imagine they would have already 0:53:24.640,0:53:28.880 started deprecating luma 0:53:26.319,0:53:30.000 yeah the old front then and already push 0:53:28.880,0:53:31.920 pwa 0:53:30.000,0:53:33.440 it's going to be very interesting to see 0:53:31.920,0:53:35.599 when that's going to happen 0:53:33.440,0:53:37.119 um but for me that's going to be a 0:53:35.599,0:53:40.480 really hard split 0:53:37.119,0:53:41.200 one day when they decide to pull the 0:53:40.480,0:53:44.960 plug 0:53:41.200,0:53:46.319 on the current front end 0:53:44.960,0:53:48.640 that's going to move things in two 0:53:46.319,0:53:50.720 directions 0:53:48.640,0:53:52.880 and i don't think that can happen 0:53:50.720,0:53:55.520 anytime soon because 0:53:52.880,0:53:56.960 people are just not ready to adopt pwa 0:53:55.520,0:53:59.760 and i wonder if that's 0:53:56.960,0:53:59.760 ever going to be 0:54:00.079,0:54:08.319 the best solution and and 0:54:04.160,0:54:11.280 well something that fits uh for for 0:54:08.319,0:54:11.280 the 0:54:12.079,0:54:18.960 yeah and if they would do this 0:54:15.119,0:54:18.960 it would mean that they really 0:54:19.040,0:54:25.520 uh definitely say 0:54:22.160,0:54:28.720 mid market that's not our 0:54:25.520,0:54:32.000 that's not our gig um 0:54:28.720,0:54:35.440 we're enterprise um 0:54:32.000,0:54:40.480 we want you to build bespoke 0:54:35.440,0:54:40.480 and custom builds magento shops 0:54:40.640,0:54:44.559 we think you should be technically able 0:54:43.280,0:54:46.480 to 0:54:44.559,0:54:48.799 just build it to react components that 0:54:46.480,0:54:50.559 we have it will get better of course 0:54:48.799,0:54:53.839 there will be teams with predefined 0:54:50.559,0:54:53.839 components from react but 0:54:53.920,0:54:58.240 i don't know it will never become as 0:54:56.160,0:55:01.280 simple as just 0:54:58.240,0:55:04.160 building php html sites 0:55:01.280,0:55:05.040 and you'll never have less javascript 0:55:04.160,0:55:08.160 than 0:55:05.040,0:55:10.640 with a php html site yeah 0:55:08.160,0:55:11.680 yeah and um all javascript will never i 0:55:10.640,0:55:13.520 mean 0:55:11.680,0:55:15.280 i'm not against more in javascript i 0:55:13.520,0:55:16.319 love it my whole team is about more than 0:55:15.280,0:55:19.440 javascript 0:55:16.319,0:55:21.680 but um as least as possible 0:55:19.440,0:55:23.359 always the simplest solution and i want 0:55:21.680,0:55:25.440 people to be able to read my code and 0:55:23.359,0:55:27.359 understand it and not dig into 0:55:25.440,0:55:28.640 20 different files trying to understand 0:55:27.359,0:55:30.559 where someone came from 0:55:28.640,0:55:31.920 yeah so what are things i was curious 0:55:30.559,0:55:33.680 about with um 0:55:31.920,0:55:35.280 like alpine so i'm more familiar with 0:55:33.680,0:55:37.440 vue and 0:55:35.280,0:55:39.200 um everybody seems to love alpine my 0:55:37.440,0:55:40.880 understanding is i saw a little bit of 0:55:39.200,0:55:42.799 your code like it's just 0:55:40.880,0:55:44.960 a simpler version of you you don't have 0:55:42.799,0:55:46.960 to go and create components in order to 0:55:44.960,0:55:49.680 and like can't do based simple logic and 0:55:46.960,0:55:51.520 stuff like that inside of a template 0:55:49.680,0:55:53.760 um and i saw like one of your posts on 0:55:51.520,0:55:55.280 like how to build a paginated slider and 0:55:53.760,0:55:57.680 things like that and like 0:55:55.280,0:55:59.680 as you like for example in my in my code 0:55:57.680,0:56:01.599 base i have like a multi-select 0:55:59.680,0:56:04.000 like a view multi-select widget that has 0:56:01.599,0:56:06.880 all sorts of cool stuff that it does 0:56:04.000,0:56:08.400 but as you like this so there so that 0:56:06.880,0:56:11.040 tension between 0:56:08.400,0:56:12.640 the simple use case let's do something 0:56:11.040,0:56:13.520 simple let's not ship a lot of code 0:56:12.640,0:56:17.200 versus 0:56:13.520,0:56:19.359 as things mature and if you like like 0:56:17.200,0:56:21.119 in the view ecosystem you have all these 0:56:19.359,0:56:22.400 like packages and components i'm sure 0:56:21.119,0:56:23.760 it's similar to react 0:56:22.400,0:56:26.160 there's all these components you want to 0:56:23.760,0:56:27.920 multi-select you want a table grid 0:56:26.160,0:56:30.079 whatever you want right they have all 0:56:27.920,0:56:34.000 sorts of things you can use 0:56:30.079,0:56:36.240 um how does that work with with alpine 0:56:34.000,0:56:38.880 and like aren't you going to want access 0:56:36.240,0:56:40.960 to an ecosystem with more of these rich 0:56:38.880,0:56:42.079 existing components that you can plug in 0:56:40.960,0:56:45.680 for 0:56:42.079,0:56:47.680 for different things 0:56:45.680,0:56:49.839 yeah so i want to keep things simple and 0:56:47.680,0:56:53.359 small in the basis 0:56:49.839,0:56:55.680 um that doesn't mean that you're not 0:56:53.359,0:56:56.799 able to put complex things in there you 0:56:55.680,0:56:59.680 just pull it in as 0:56:56.799,0:57:01.839 additional secondary thing yeah yeah so 0:56:59.680,0:57:04.240 i imagined when i got started 0:57:01.839,0:57:05.119 alpine is going to replace things that i 0:57:04.240,0:57:08.319 normally would do 0:57:05.119,0:57:10.559 with jquery or i used to do with jquery 0:57:08.319,0:57:11.760 simple presentation logic toggles yeah 0:57:10.559,0:57:14.799 just ui 0:57:11.760,0:57:16.480 ui elements and i was sure that for 0:57:14.799,0:57:18.400 example the mini cards 0:57:16.480,0:57:20.000 i would have to build with react and 0:57:18.400,0:57:22.720 maybe the product pitch 0:57:20.000,0:57:24.079 um we did similar things at intergenet 0:57:22.720,0:57:25.839 at some builds because the current 0:57:24.079,0:57:27.359 front-end just was such a pain to work 0:57:25.839,0:57:28.559 with we just started to build react 0:57:27.359,0:57:30.880 components 0:57:28.559,0:57:32.160 that were kind of hybrid so if we would 0:57:30.880,0:57:35.440 move to pwa 0:57:32.160,0:57:36.960 we'd already have a large library of 0:57:35.440,0:57:38.559 checkout and product page and all these 0:57:36.960,0:57:42.160 things that we could reuse 0:57:38.559,0:57:45.920 um so i i have two years of 0:57:42.160,0:57:49.359 experience with building react apps um 0:57:45.920,0:57:51.280 and um we open source 0:57:49.359,0:57:53.119 the react checkout that we're building 0:57:51.280,0:57:54.240 which is iteration on something that i 0:57:53.119,0:57:57.839 did before 0:57:54.240,0:58:02.160 and it's much more versatile it's um 0:57:57.839,0:58:02.160 super um um 0:58:02.319,0:58:07.920 flexible like you can go anywhere with 0:58:05.359,0:58:08.880 with the structure of elements and i put 0:58:07.920,0:58:12.240 all the logic 0:58:08.880,0:58:13.599 up in in context so um there's kind of 0:58:12.240,0:58:16.400 like a separate brain 0:58:13.599,0:58:17.359 to the checkout and then we have dumb ui 0:58:16.400,0:58:20.079 elements 0:58:17.359,0:58:20.559 simple components that just display 0:58:20.079,0:58:23.359 stuff 0:58:20.559,0:58:24.240 and call functions from this brain the 0:58:23.359,0:58:26.319 context 0:58:24.240,0:58:28.000 and and that works really nicely it's 0:58:26.319,0:58:30.720 not fully featured yet uh 0:58:28.000,0:58:32.720 i i did one implementation for b2b 0:58:30.720,0:58:35.440 customer and i didn't need 0:58:32.720,0:58:36.000 shipping and payment so it was quite 0:58:35.440,0:58:37.680 simple just 0:58:36.000,0:58:39.280 billing and some custom graphql 0:58:37.680,0:58:40.960 endpoints 0:58:39.280,0:58:43.280 and i actually started building that 0:58:40.960,0:58:46.640 checkout uh this january 0:58:43.280,0:58:48.160 so almost a year ago uh i wanted to open 0:58:46.640,0:58:52.079 source it and then 0:58:48.160,0:58:56.000 covet happened and uh um 0:58:52.079,0:58:59.200 it was postponed for a while and then 0:58:56.000,0:59:01.119 in june yeah they asked me to build a 0:58:59.200,0:59:02.960 checkout for this particular customer 0:59:01.119,0:59:04.880 and then i saw the designs it's like oh 0:59:02.960,0:59:08.000 man i have to use my 0:59:04.880,0:59:09.839 my side project for this so i just i got 0:59:08.000,0:59:11.200 asked for the checkout and what they got 0:59:09.839,0:59:14.880 was a new front end 0:59:11.200,0:59:18.240 um but yeah to get back on point 0:59:14.880,0:59:20.400 um you can you can build 0:59:18.240,0:59:21.920 reacts or view components and put them 0:59:20.400,0:59:25.200 into the page 0:59:21.920,0:59:27.200 and um you can use 0:59:25.200,0:59:28.319 all these libraries and even code that 0:59:27.200,0:59:30.160 you've used i 0:59:28.319,0:59:32.319 imagine if you're an agency that does 0:59:30.160,0:59:34.400 pwa and you do magento 0:59:32.319,0:59:36.559 and you're knowledgeable about magento 0:59:34.400,0:59:38.960 you're gonna love having the option 0:59:36.559,0:59:40.000 to work with huva because you have the 0:59:38.960,0:59:41.680 same back ends 0:59:40.000,0:59:43.680 and the same developers working on the 0:59:41.680,0:59:45.280 same backend and the front end is just 0:59:43.680,0:59:46.640 something simple that you can use to 0:59:45.280,0:59:50.960 build a web shop in a month 0:59:46.640,0:59:53.760 instead of six or twelve um 0:59:50.960,0:59:54.480 and then you can serve mid market 0:59:53.760,0:59:56.640 clients 0:59:54.480,0:59:58.799 whatever ten thousand dollars luxury 0:59:56.640,1:00:02.400 websites 0:59:58.799,1:00:05.839 yeah i i mean um 1:00:02.400,1:00:06.400 sure for for for those that just came 1:00:05.839,1:00:10.079 out it's 1:00:06.400,1:00:11.359 out of ice out of college for those that 1:00:10.079,1:00:13.599 are just getting started 1:00:11.359,1:00:14.640 they're young they're enthusiastic they 1:00:13.599,1:00:17.119 want to learn 1:00:14.640,1:00:17.920 they want to fall and get up again they 1:00:17.119,1:00:20.000 can build 1:00:17.920,1:00:21.760 a magenta webshop with huffa for ten 1:00:20.000,1:00:22.640 thousand euros and they'll be earning 1:00:21.760,1:00:25.839 good money with it 1:00:22.640,1:00:26.640 it's how we got started and um i look 1:00:25.839,1:00:29.119 forward to 1:00:26.640,1:00:30.880 to hopefully see that happen again 1:00:29.119,1:00:31.599 because currently the entry level of 1:00:30.880,1:00:35.040 magento 1:00:31.599,1:00:37.280 is already somewhere up in enterprise 1:00:35.040,1:00:39.040 yeah so you already need to have agency 1:00:37.280,1:00:41.520 with with people that already know 1:00:39.040,1:00:44.240 magento that can train 1:00:41.520,1:00:45.359 juniors and what you had to start with 1:00:44.240,1:00:47.599 with max 1:00:45.359,1:00:48.400 from from something digital you need a 1:00:47.599,1:00:52.079 whole program 1:00:48.400,1:00:54.720 to actually um school you you need to 1:00:52.079,1:00:55.440 you need to have the the money and the 1:00:54.720,1:00:58.799 time to 1:00:55.440,1:01:00.880 actually uh train juniors 1:00:58.799,1:01:02.480 and um it's interesting that's how we 1:01:00.880,1:01:04.559 got started with magento one 1:01:02.480,1:01:05.680 yeah man it's so funny because in some 1:01:04.559,1:01:08.160 ways i feel like 1:01:05.680,1:01:10.880 you're kee it's like you're keeping the 1:01:08.160,1:01:12.960 spirit of magento alive 1:01:10.880,1:01:14.799 you know what i mean it's like magento 1:01:12.960,1:01:16.240 is this corporate thing now 1:01:14.799,1:01:17.520 and it's the money more and more it's 1:01:16.240,1:01:19.599 like you said that's the bigger and 1:01:17.520,1:01:22.880 bigger projects it's more enterprisey 1:01:19.599,1:01:24.480 adobe and it's like you're trying to 1:01:22.880,1:01:26.960 kind of almost revive 1:01:24.480,1:01:28.400 like that feeling that you had building 1:01:26.960,1:01:30.319 things when they were simpler when 1:01:28.400,1:01:33.359 people could get in easier 1:01:30.319,1:01:35.440 um and uh 1:01:33.359,1:01:37.200 it makes me think of that tweet i posted 1:01:35.440,1:01:38.000 about like entrepreneurship too a little 1:01:37.200,1:01:41.119 bit in america 1:01:38.000,1:01:43.200 versus europe right because like 1:01:41.119,1:01:44.559 it's it's it's like in a way like you're 1:01:43.200,1:01:48.960 keeping this that 1:01:44.559,1:01:52.160 spirit of magento alive and i wonder 1:01:48.960,1:01:56.400 if it it's maybe more so 1:01:52.160,1:01:58.799 alive in in europe in some ways because 1:01:56.400,1:02:00.640 there tends to be less of the of the uh 1:01:58.799,1:02:01.599 commercial edition of magento it's more 1:02:00.640,1:02:04.559 the open sour 1:02:01.599,1:02:06.559 open source version um and so it's 1:02:04.559,1:02:07.680 almost like the price points stay a bit 1:02:06.559,1:02:10.400 lower 1:02:07.680,1:02:13.440 um and i don't know it's just it's 1:02:10.400,1:02:16.559 making me think about that you know 1:02:13.440,1:02:17.599 yeah i don't know too much about the the 1:02:16.559,1:02:20.559 u.s market 1:02:17.599,1:02:22.079 or how what what range agencies are 1:02:20.559,1:02:24.480 operating in there but 1:02:22.079,1:02:26.160 i literally built my first magenta site 1:02:24.480,1:02:29.119 for a thousand euros 1:02:26.160,1:02:30.400 yeah i had sold a team and i got on my 1:02:29.119,1:02:32.640 way and 1:02:30.400,1:02:34.720 i was still student so i didn't need the 1:02:32.640,1:02:36.480 money really 1:02:34.720,1:02:38.799 i was just in it for the experience and 1:02:36.480,1:02:40.480 to learn and it got me up to the point 1:02:38.799,1:02:42.160 where i had an agency 1:02:40.480,1:02:44.559 where we were doing really well and 1:02:42.160,1:02:47.680 magento 1 was a golden era for us 1:02:44.559,1:02:50.240 we didn't build expensive web shops 1:02:47.680,1:02:51.280 but we had enough customers enough 1:02:50.240,1:02:53.760 builds 1:02:51.280,1:02:54.880 and mostly we're having we were having a 1:02:53.760,1:02:58.960 lot of fun 1:02:54.880,1:03:02.799 and that's that's the best driver um 1:02:58.960,1:03:04.720 and um i think i think that's still 1:03:02.799,1:03:09.440 possible with magento 1:03:04.720,1:03:12.160 um up until the point where they 1:03:09.440,1:03:12.640 why are they going to push pwa so hard 1:03:12.160,1:03:17.119 that 1:03:12.640,1:03:18.050 that we have no other choice than to 1:03:17.119,1:03:21.760 fork it 1:03:18.050,1:03:23.839 [Laughter] 1:03:21.760,1:03:25.599 i mean it's it's possible that's the 1:03:23.839,1:03:27.359 thing about an open source community is 1:03:25.599,1:03:28.960 like you can take things the direction 1:03:27.359,1:03:32.000 you want to take them i mean 1:03:28.960,1:03:33.520 you ran into all these issues and 1:03:32.000,1:03:34.960 you know some people can just complain 1:03:33.520,1:03:36.319 but you did something about it like you 1:03:34.960,1:03:39.839 built something 1:03:36.319,1:03:42.960 that people can use we spent two years 1:03:39.839,1:03:45.119 just thinking what what what should we 1:03:42.960,1:03:47.119 do because 1:03:45.119,1:03:48.160 it's maybe hard to understand but not 1:03:47.119,1:03:51.200 every agency 1:03:48.160,1:03:52.240 wants enterprise not every agency wants 1:03:51.200,1:03:55.119 to deal 1:03:52.240,1:03:58.720 with merchants that have a whole c level 1:03:55.119,1:04:01.280 and a ceo and a cmo that have an opinion 1:03:58.720,1:04:04.640 because they need to have an opinion 1:04:01.280,1:04:04.640 and they need to have this 1:04:05.200,1:04:09.440 all this google tech manager stuff and 1:04:07.440,1:04:12.640 the hundred tracking scripts and 1:04:09.440,1:04:14.480 and they push their opinions so hard 1:04:12.640,1:04:16.720 just because 1:04:14.480,1:04:18.480 they have the authority to do so and 1:04:16.720,1:04:19.359 they don't really listen to you when you 1:04:18.480,1:04:21.680 give the best of 1:04:19.359,1:04:22.799 uh the best advice and you have solid 1:04:21.680,1:04:24.799 arguments and 1:04:22.799,1:04:26.319 they push you to build something that 1:04:24.799,1:04:28.160 fills and then they come back and they 1:04:26.319,1:04:28.880 say okay so maybe do the other thing 1:04:28.160,1:04:31.920 then 1:04:28.880,1:04:33.920 and that's so draining as a developer 1:04:31.920,1:04:35.280 if you're doing something that you're 1:04:33.920,1:04:38.799 not behind 1:04:35.280,1:04:42.799 if you're um and 1:04:38.799,1:04:45.760 what what i enjoy most is when i sit 1:04:42.799,1:04:46.720 across someone at the table that owns 1:04:45.760,1:04:48.880 the company 1:04:46.720,1:04:50.799 yeah that invested its life into it 1:04:48.880,1:04:54.000 who's passionate about the company 1:04:50.799,1:04:56.400 who who wants to grow who wants to 1:04:54.000,1:04:57.920 learn um and you have a whole different 1:04:56.400,1:05:01.119 experience with such a merchant 1:04:57.920,1:05:02.480 yeah and they 1:05:01.119,1:05:04.640 they also have budgets you have 1:05:02.480,1:05:07.520 multi-million companies where the owner 1:05:04.640,1:05:08.480 is is is still actually running the 1:05:07.520,1:05:12.160 business 1:05:08.480,1:05:14.799 and that's a lot more fun than than uh 1:05:12.160,1:05:16.400 hundreds of million company where 1:05:14.799,1:05:20.319 everything is formalized 1:05:16.400,1:05:23.680 and yeah we just like the 1:05:20.319,1:05:26.799 the personal and the the human side of 1:05:23.680,1:05:30.480 of of working 1:05:26.799,1:05:31.200 and um i love that i i'm similar in the 1:05:30.480,1:05:34.000 sense that 1:05:31.200,1:05:35.599 i i like working with um like the 1:05:34.000,1:05:36.079 customers that work out the best tend to 1:05:35.599,1:05:38.319 be 1:05:36.079,1:05:39.440 generally agencies that are where i'm 1:05:38.319,1:05:41.119 dealing with the owner 1:05:39.440,1:05:43.119 something like that sometimes merchants 1:05:41.119,1:05:46.160 too but um 1:05:43.119,1:05:47.039 when you know it's this big company and 1:05:46.160,1:05:48.720 like it's like 1:05:47.039,1:05:50.079 for me it's if they have an hr 1:05:48.720,1:05:53.119 department like 1:05:50.079,1:05:56.400 if my contact is the hr person 1:05:53.119,1:05:59.039 like nothing ever 1:05:56.400,1:06:00.720 goes anywhere i don't know why that is 1:05:59.039,1:06:04.240 yeah 1:06:00.720,1:06:08.160 but yeah it's uh i love small businesses 1:06:04.240,1:06:10.799 you know yeah and they can i mean 1:06:08.160,1:06:12.240 of course the bakery around the corner 1:06:10.799,1:06:15.680 all this 1:06:12.240,1:06:19.119 just um clothing 1:06:15.680,1:06:20.799 well some shop around the corner 1:06:19.119,1:06:23.039 shouldn't be a magento because they 1:06:20.799,1:06:23.920 can't they can't pay the the cost of 1:06:23.039,1:06:27.119 ownership the 1:06:23.920,1:06:29.839 the updates and the security stuff 1:06:27.119,1:06:33.440 um or the hosting and they're best off 1:06:29.839,1:06:35.359 from the sas like i don't care shopify 1:06:33.440,1:06:36.960 um that's a perfect fit and we have a 1:06:35.359,1:06:37.599 few of those in the netherlands where 1:06:36.960,1:06:41.920 you 1:06:37.599,1:06:43.839 get your your pos integrated and you pay 1:06:41.920,1:06:45.680 10 euros a month and you have a web shop 1:06:43.839,1:06:46.000 and you put your 20 products on there 1:06:45.680,1:06:49.119 and you 1:06:46.000,1:06:52.160 sell maybe one product in a week 1:06:49.119,1:06:55.359 that's all fine we used to 1:06:52.160,1:06:56.400 i sold magenta to one of one or two of 1:06:55.359,1:06:59.440 those merchants 1:06:56.400,1:07:01.599 all the way in the beginning and 1:06:59.440,1:07:03.039 in the end we mostly hurt ourselves 1:07:01.599,1:07:04.240 because they couldn't pay for our 1:07:03.039,1:07:07.599 services 1:07:04.240,1:07:08.880 and we were so humane to still fix their 1:07:07.599,1:07:11.280 issues 1:07:08.880,1:07:12.319 issues and not being able to properly 1:07:11.280,1:07:15.280 charge them 1:07:12.319,1:07:16.480 um and that's that's really a dumb deal 1:07:15.280,1:07:20.799 with magenta too 1:07:16.480,1:07:22.799 uh it's unrealistic but um 1:07:20.799,1:07:24.319 yeah it brings you back to what's mid 1:07:22.799,1:07:28.240 market but i think 1:07:24.319,1:07:30.160 um 10k web shop well 1:07:28.240,1:07:32.960 maybe if there's not too many 1:07:30.160,1:07:36.559 requirements i built a hifa website 1:07:32.960,1:07:38.400 if you go to hiva.io i build it the day 1:07:36.559,1:07:40.240 before the conference 1:07:38.400,1:07:42.640 and of course this there's two products 1:07:40.240,1:07:46.400 in it and the checkout is simple 1:07:42.640,1:07:48.799 there's no payment method but um 1:07:46.400,1:07:50.960 i really did some customizations there 1:07:48.799,1:07:54.240 and 1:07:50.960,1:07:57.359 integrated mailchimp and 1:07:54.240,1:07:59.760 google tag manager and it's not just 1:07:57.359,1:08:01.760 it didn't just install it and then leave 1:07:59.760,1:08:04.960 it there and also the demo site 1:08:01.760,1:08:08.839 um really came together last minute um 1:08:04.960,1:08:10.319 because all we had up till a week before 1:08:08.839,1:08:13.920 reacticon was 1:08:10.319,1:08:16.640 projects that we were implementing and 1:08:13.920,1:08:18.719 little by little we we would put stuff 1:08:16.640,1:08:20.880 back into the main product 1:08:18.719,1:08:22.719 but the week before reactacon i really 1:08:20.880,1:08:25.759 had to push and get everything in 1:08:22.719,1:08:28.239 and um just just getting a demo up there 1:08:25.759,1:08:29.759 um well and this is the thing with i 1:08:28.239,1:08:32.159 mean and this was my whole 1:08:29.759,1:08:32.960 this was my whole point with that whole 1:08:32.159,1:08:36.000 10 000 1:08:32.960,1:08:38.319 thing the whole time is that like yes 1:08:36.000,1:08:40.000 there is this expectation that prices 1:08:38.319,1:08:42.560 have gone up and up and up and up and 1:08:40.000,1:08:44.159 and especially us-based solution 1:08:42.560,1:08:45.279 partners they don't want to hear about a 1:08:44.159,1:08:48.880 budget that's less than 1:08:45.279,1:08:50.880 50 7 500 000 right that's just 1:08:48.880,1:08:52.400 it doesn't make sense that's just true 1:08:50.880,1:08:55.120 that's the expectation 1:08:52.400,1:08:56.560 but what i'm looking at from sort of 1:08:55.120,1:08:58.319 first principles 1:08:56.560,1:08:59.600 is like and it goes back to this thing 1:08:58.319,1:09:01.839 with developers 1:08:59.600,1:09:03.199 you know the developer has a tool set 1:09:01.839,1:09:05.520 that they're familiar with that they 1:09:03.199,1:09:07.759 know well that they're efficient in 1:09:05.520,1:09:09.920 then why could why can't they do 1:09:07.759,1:09:10.640 something quickly if the requirements 1:09:09.920,1:09:12.719 are 1:09:10.640,1:09:14.799 not too bad the client of course 1:09:12.719,1:09:17.040 assuming the client knows what they want 1:09:14.799,1:09:18.640 the requirements aren't too crazy why 1:09:17.040,1:09:22.319 not why not and 1:09:18.640,1:09:25.279 in some ways like you're it's that same 1:09:22.319,1:09:27.199 um it's the same thrust of like let's 1:09:25.279,1:09:29.040 simplify like let's not 1:09:27.199,1:09:30.319 work with the tool set that we're just 1:09:29.040,1:09:34.560 fighting against 1:09:30.319,1:09:37.199 constantly just because that's how it is 1:09:34.560,1:09:38.960 yeah well in defense of those agencies 1:09:37.199,1:09:43.359 um 1:09:38.960,1:09:45.600 in the end a 10k merchant 1:09:43.359,1:09:46.839 isn't ideal because usually that's their 1:09:45.600,1:09:49.679 budget 1:09:46.839,1:09:53.199 and um 1:09:49.679,1:09:57.760 but then one month after going live 1:09:53.199,1:09:57.760 that's a security patch yeah i think 1:09:58.000,1:10:02.239 and all of a sudden all the categories 1:10:01.120,1:10:04.560 are empty because 1:10:02.239,1:10:06.560 some indexer doesn't run anymore and his 1:10:04.560,1:10:08.480 elasticsearch broke or something happens 1:10:06.560,1:10:12.400 with varnish or 1:10:08.480,1:10:15.199 i mean it's a complicated stack and 1:10:12.400,1:10:16.800 we learned to do magento for 10 years 1:10:15.199,1:10:19.199 and it takes us one hour to fix 1:10:16.800,1:10:20.719 something but that doesn't mean 1:10:19.199,1:10:22.800 you have to take into account that 1:10:20.719,1:10:26.000 there's well a certain 1:10:22.800,1:10:30.159 yeah it's an expense 1:10:26.000,1:10:33.440 yeah um 1:10:30.159,1:10:36.159 i think a 10k merchant is not 1:10:33.440,1:10:38.400 sustainable in the long run 1:10:36.159,1:10:40.320 unless you're a student or a beginning 1:10:38.400,1:10:42.000 agency that's getting started and 1:10:40.320,1:10:43.520 doesn't have a lot of cost and you're 1:10:42.000,1:10:45.520 learning and growing 1:10:43.520,1:10:47.679 but that's not that shouldn't be where 1:10:45.520,1:10:51.040 you're where you finish off 1:10:47.679,1:10:53.520 right um right but it would be 1:10:51.040,1:10:56.480 the perfect basis to get started again 1:10:53.520,1:10:59.199 right and that's something that you saw 1:10:56.480,1:11:00.159 at least in europe you saw this a lot 1:10:59.199,1:11:01.920 ten years ago 1:11:00.159,1:11:03.199 eight years ago six years ago and then 1:11:01.920,1:11:05.040 it stopped 1:11:03.199,1:11:06.640 there's just the level of entry since 1:11:05.040,1:11:08.239 magento 2.0 1:11:06.640,1:11:10.000 got higher and higher and higher and a 1:11:08.239,1:11:11.520 lot of people just gave up because there 1:11:10.000,1:11:14.880 were too many bucks 1:11:11.520,1:11:15.840 and you couldn't build them one of my 1:11:14.880,1:11:18.400 issues was that 1:11:15.840,1:11:19.600 i worked at fixed prices and well some 1:11:18.400,1:11:23.199 things were buildable but 1:11:19.600,1:11:26.159 i couldn't build a customer for 1:11:23.199,1:11:26.800 paypal being so broken that their stock 1:11:26.159,1:11:30.000 status 1:11:26.800,1:11:31.280 changed every day there was such a core 1:11:30.000,1:11:32.640 box in paypal 1:11:31.280,1:11:36.960 that if someone tried to buy a 1:11:32.640,1:11:36.960 configurable product and um 1:11:37.520,1:11:41.040 there was a credit check you would do a 1:11:39.360,1:11:41.920 credit check with paypal for a hundred 1:11:41.040,1:11:43.840 dollars 1:11:41.920,1:11:45.440 and then after the credit check you 1:11:43.840,1:11:47.120 would go to the confirmation screen and 1:11:45.440,1:11:49.920 you would add shipping 1:11:47.120,1:11:52.320 and if shipping would add 20 to your 1:11:49.920,1:11:52.320 order 1:11:52.400,1:11:55.760 your credit card was validated for a 1:11:54.159,1:11:58.000 hundred dollars 1:11:55.760,1:11:59.120 which became 120 and you would hit a 1:11:58.000,1:12:01.440 credit limit 1:11:59.120,1:12:03.040 so paypal would throw an error somewhere 1:12:01.440,1:12:04.800 silently in the back end 1:12:03.040,1:12:07.040 would throw the customer back into the 1:12:04.800,1:12:08.960 checkout payment field 1:12:07.040,1:12:10.540 without any message you wouldn't find it 1:12:08.960,1:12:12.320 in the locks 1:12:10.540,1:12:15.679 [Music] 1:12:12.320,1:12:18.640 and then magento would say 1:12:15.679,1:12:21.840 ah this is a filled order let me put 1:12:18.640,1:12:24.000 that product back in stock 1:12:21.840,1:12:26.000 while that product hadn't even been 1:12:24.000,1:12:28.960 deducted yet so there was 1:12:26.000,1:12:30.320 if it had a stock of 10 it didn't it 1:12:28.960,1:12:33.600 never went to nine 1:12:30.320,1:12:35.600 but it went to 11 or even 12 yeah when a 1:12:33.600,1:12:37.440 customer came back with a field payment 1:12:35.600,1:12:39.280 and the customer would think well i have 1:12:37.440,1:12:40.800 enough credit let me try again 1:12:39.280,1:12:42.719 and try again and try again and try 1:12:40.800,1:12:43.440 again and then the merchant would call 1:12:42.719,1:12:45.679 me 1:12:43.440,1:12:48.080 that for some products the stock went up 1:12:45.679,1:12:50.400 with 20 units 1:12:48.080,1:12:51.120 and they didn't sell anything and that 1:12:50.400,1:12:54.320 took me 1:12:51.120,1:12:56.159 like among three or four other bucks 1:12:54.320,1:12:57.600 in checkout and this was in a time that 1:12:56.159,1:13:00.640 they were ebay owned right 1:12:57.600,1:13:03.760 so paypal and magento they were 1:13:00.640,1:13:04.719 they that was basically the same it was 1:13:03.760,1:13:06.719 the same company 1:13:04.719,1:13:08.400 yeah and it was the worst integration of 1:13:06.719,1:13:09.920 payment that you that you could possibly 1:13:08.400,1:13:13.679 see there were so many bucks 1:13:09.920,1:13:16.000 yeah um and it took me 1:13:13.679,1:13:17.199 six weeks where the merchant was calling 1:13:16.000,1:13:20.080 me every day 1:13:17.199,1:13:20.560 what to say is on the stock issue i'm 1:13:20.080,1:13:22.480 where 1:13:20.560,1:13:24.320 the whole company is recalming i'm stuck 1:13:22.480,1:13:25.760 today again please tell me that it's 1:13:24.320,1:13:28.000 fixed tomorrow 1:13:25.760,1:13:29.440 they needed to do a full stock recount 1:13:28.000,1:13:31.360 every day 1:13:29.440,1:13:32.480 and i had this chronicle that ran every 1:13:31.360,1:13:34.800 minute and it would 1:13:32.480,1:13:35.520 it would store the current stock status 1:13:34.800,1:13:37.840 in a 1:13:35.520,1:13:40.000 in a copy table so i would have the 1:13:37.840,1:13:41.679 stock table and then the shadow table 1:13:40.000,1:13:44.480 and i would compare every minute what 1:13:41.679,1:13:46.640 changed compared to the minute before 1:13:44.480,1:13:49.040 with a time stamp and then i would go 1:13:46.640,1:13:50.719 through server blocks and then see 1:13:49.040,1:13:53.760 okay they added this product in the back 1:13:50.719,1:13:56.159 end so this is genuine 1:13:53.760,1:13:58.320 ah okay here's a cancelled order and the 1:13:56.159,1:14:00.800 stock went up with two 1:13:58.320,1:14:02.000 okay so i would mark that red and then 1:14:00.800,1:14:03.440 look into that 1:14:02.000,1:14:05.520 and because there were three or four 1:14:03.440,1:14:08.080 different box uh boxes 1:14:05.520,1:14:10.560 at the same time there was no pattern so 1:14:08.080,1:14:12.400 just like oh so i have something here 1:14:10.560,1:14:14.480 but that doesn't match with this other 1:14:12.400,1:14:17.280 thing that i just had so 1:14:14.480,1:14:17.840 i'm looking at the wrong thing yeah and 1:14:17.280,1:14:20.000 that's 1:14:17.840,1:14:21.040 that's why my brain at some point just 1:14:20.000,1:14:24.080 it just melted 1:14:21.040,1:14:26.239 yeah because we did we actually did four 1:14:24.080,1:14:30.480 magenta two builds at that time 1:14:26.239,1:14:33.760 um and magenta 2.0 and 2.1 1:14:30.480,1:14:36.960 you're uh you're taking me back to some 1:14:33.760,1:14:39.760 some late nights like troubleshooting 1:14:36.960,1:14:43.120 like email delivery stuff like where it 1:14:39.760,1:14:45.040 was just like really stressful 1:14:43.120,1:14:47.520 and like you know if you do something 1:14:45.040,1:14:48.719 wrong there's like bad consequences and 1:14:47.520,1:14:51.360 i haven't i haven't had to deal with 1:14:48.719,1:14:53.600 that kind of thing in a while so 1:14:51.360,1:14:56.080 that's good but yeah the pressure of a 1:14:53.600,1:14:59.340 merchant calling you every day oh 1:14:56.080,1:15:00.400 god you wake up in the morning 1:14:59.340,1:15:02.640 [Music] 1:15:00.400,1:15:04.640 and it's the first thing you think of 1:15:02.640,1:15:07.920 and you go to bed in the evening 1:15:04.640,1:15:09.040 and and you lay awake just just trying 1:15:07.920,1:15:12.159 to figure out 1:15:09.040,1:15:13.040 trying to process and understanding what 1:15:12.159,1:15:16.000 the issue is 1:15:13.040,1:15:17.600 yeah and yeah there's a limit to that 1:15:16.000,1:15:21.360 you can have stress stress as a 1:15:17.600,1:15:24.400 perfectly natural state of being 1:15:21.360,1:15:27.040 and it saves lives but 1:15:24.400,1:15:28.880 that has to be um well you have to be 1:15:27.040,1:15:31.600 able to offload 1:15:28.880,1:15:33.600 and if you don't have to back up i had 1:15:31.600,1:15:34.960 some developers working for me they did 1:15:33.600,1:15:37.760 front end stuff 1:15:34.960,1:15:39.360 so they actually made sure that we still 1:15:37.760,1:15:42.800 had billable hours 1:15:39.360,1:15:45.600 but there was no one to 1:15:42.800,1:15:47.360 to fix issues if the server just went 1:15:45.600,1:15:50.320 down in the middle of the night or 1:15:47.360,1:15:52.640 yeah these kind of issues with magento 2 1:15:50.320,1:15:55.920 that all just came on me and 1:15:52.640,1:15:58.320 wasn't sustainable we had 24 1:15:55.920,1:15:59.760 25 magenta one customers and i could 1:15:58.320,1:16:01.650 handle those 1:15:59.760,1:16:03.120 on my own pretty much 1:16:01.650,1:16:06.000 [Music] 1:16:03.120,1:16:06.480 until we added four magenta to customers 1:16:06.000,1:16:08.960 to it 1:16:06.480,1:16:08.960 and then 1:16:11.040,1:16:16.239 yeah man i've been thinking about like 1:16:14.560,1:16:18.239 like kind of the meditation stuff and 1:16:16.239,1:16:22.400 like mental health stuff specifically 1:16:18.239,1:16:24.480 for like as developers i think there are 1:16:22.400,1:16:27.040 some unique 1:16:24.480,1:16:27.679 challenges that we face and some unique 1:16:27.040,1:16:31.199 um 1:16:27.679,1:16:32.719 types of pressures um 1:16:31.199,1:16:34.320 especially if you're in a situation like 1:16:32.719,1:16:35.920 that where something's down something in 1:16:34.320,1:16:38.719 production 1:16:35.920,1:16:39.440 and um you know you talked about your 1:16:38.719,1:16:41.280 burnout 1:16:39.440,1:16:44.560 i i feel like i've experienced some 1:16:41.280,1:16:48.080 different types of burnout as well 1:16:44.560,1:16:50.719 um and um 1:16:48.080,1:16:51.920 i think it's something that like people 1:16:50.719,1:16:56.080 are trying to figure out 1:16:51.920,1:16:57.600 and i think um i don't know i just i i 1:16:56.080,1:17:00.719 feel like we have to 1:16:57.600,1:17:03.280 we have to i feel like their 1:17:00.719,1:17:05.040 society problem it's a society-wide 1:17:03.280,1:17:06.880 problem and there's different flavors 1:17:05.040,1:17:08.719 you know there's different ways that it 1:17:06.880,1:17:10.239 impacts different people differently 1:17:08.719,1:17:12.000 but i think about it through the lens of 1:17:10.239,1:17:15.520 my own experience and through 1:17:12.000,1:17:17.840 like developers or people that i know um 1:17:15.520,1:17:19.360 and it's like man we have to find ways 1:17:17.840,1:17:21.840 to 1:17:19.360,1:17:25.199 work through these things because 1:17:21.840,1:17:26.960 sometimes that stress is just 1:17:25.199,1:17:29.120 it's a lot you know when you're 1:17:26.960,1:17:30.640 responsible for a production system with 1:17:29.120,1:17:34.080 a lot of money that's 1:17:30.640,1:17:36.000 impacting being impacted um it can cause 1:17:34.080,1:17:36.800 a lot of and we laugh about it you know 1:17:36.000,1:17:39.679 it's fun you know 1:17:36.800,1:17:40.960 i mean it's uh these horror stories are 1:17:39.679,1:17:44.000 no not anymore 1:17:40.960,1:17:46.320 no but it can be 1:17:44.000,1:17:48.560 be there's nothing to laugh and then you 1:17:46.320,1:17:49.760 like we laugh because we're familiar 1:17:48.560,1:17:51.760 with the pain 1:17:49.760,1:17:53.920 you know it's like it's like you 1:17:51.760,1:17:58.000 understand the pain 1:17:53.920,1:18:00.000 um and you know it's uh but yeah but 1:17:58.000,1:18:02.880 it's been 1:18:00.000,1:18:02.880 it's been uh 1:18:04.080,1:18:07.920 three years three and a half years since 1:18:06.960,1:18:12.000 my 1:18:07.920,1:18:15.360 last burnout um 1:18:12.000,1:18:16.400 and i still don't do developments 1:18:15.360,1:18:19.440 without back uh 1:18:16.400,1:18:22.400 deployments without backup i just 1:18:19.440,1:18:24.320 it keeps me sane it keeps me healthy 1:18:22.400,1:18:27.040 before 1:18:24.320,1:18:28.159 i do a deployment for a customer i ask 1:18:27.040,1:18:30.159 fabian 1:18:28.159,1:18:31.360 are you available something happens are 1:18:30.159,1:18:33.840 you available 1:18:31.360,1:18:34.560 and just that just knowing that it is 1:18:33.840,1:18:37.760 available 1:18:34.560,1:18:40.400 and if if the tension gets too high 1:18:37.760,1:18:41.920 i can ask him and he can fix stuff in a 1:18:40.400,1:18:45.199 deployment or whatever because 1:18:41.920,1:18:48.239 i know what the deployment system does 1:18:45.199,1:18:50.000 but at some point it gets so complex 1:18:48.239,1:18:50.960 that fabian will find it 10 times 1:18:50.000,1:18:53.360 quicker than me 1:18:50.960,1:18:55.120 and i thought i feel so much pressure 1:18:53.360,1:18:58.560 for the merchants 1:18:55.120,1:18:59.920 if that's too much downtime and that's 1:18:58.560,1:19:02.640 my whole issue like i take 1:18:59.920,1:19:04.239 responsibility and i make the merchant's 1:19:02.640,1:19:06.400 problem my own problem and that's 1:19:04.239,1:19:08.320 something 1:19:06.400,1:19:09.520 that's something good but it's something 1:19:08.320,1:19:13.360 that's costly 1:19:09.520,1:19:17.120 like so much of yourself in it um 1:19:13.360,1:19:19.199 and um yeah it's working really good 1:19:17.120,1:19:21.120 i've i've been super honest about this 1:19:19.199,1:19:23.199 from the moment i started with 1:19:21.120,1:19:25.040 working at intergenet it was two years 1:19:23.199,1:19:27.679 ago the enumerate situation i was 1:19:25.040,1:19:28.800 bad [ __ ] back then my brain just didn't 1:19:27.679,1:19:31.600 fully work 1:19:28.800,1:19:32.880 function yet um i was just getting back 1:19:31.600,1:19:34.880 on track being able to 1:19:32.880,1:19:36.000 actually program again which i couldn't 1:19:34.880,1:19:38.560 for half a year 1:19:36.000,1:19:39.679 like i just didn't have the focus and i 1:19:38.560,1:19:42.400 i had constant 1:19:39.679,1:19:42.880 migraines and i it just programming 1:19:42.400,1:19:45.520 wasn't 1:19:42.880,1:19:47.679 wasn't in it um so when i got started 1:19:45.520,1:19:50.000 with them i got the safety net where 1:19:47.679,1:19:51.120 i just told them like okay so these are 1:19:50.000,1:19:53.760 the things that i'm 1:19:51.120,1:19:54.880 perfectly able to do and here i have to 1:19:53.760,1:19:58.560 draw a line 1:19:54.880,1:20:01.920 and i have to protect myself and 1:19:58.560,1:20:05.360 for the first half 1:20:01.920,1:20:08.320 half a year maybe i i didn't take on 1:20:05.360,1:20:10.960 such responsibilities i just said 1:20:08.320,1:20:12.800 the deployment the release is ready 1:20:10.960,1:20:15.360 someone should deploy it 1:20:12.800,1:20:17.760 and then i took my hats off and that's 1:20:15.360,1:20:20.800 that really helped me 1:20:17.760,1:20:23.120 get back on track and uh 1:20:20.800,1:20:25.600 that's that's still a man it's still a 1:20:23.120,1:20:25.600 process 1:20:26.719,1:20:30.880 it's so important to know that your your 1:20:29.360,1:20:32.880 boundaries especially if you go through 1:20:30.880,1:20:35.520 like a situation like that 1:20:32.880,1:20:36.159 and to communicate those clearly and for 1:20:35.520,1:20:38.080 your team 1:20:36.159,1:20:40.560 because at the end of the day if you're 1:20:38.080,1:20:40.880 putting out a lot of code like of course 1:20:40.560,1:20:42.639 it's 1:20:40.880,1:20:44.239 great if the developer can deploy things 1:20:42.639,1:20:45.199 but if you can say hey here are my 1:20:44.239,1:20:46.719 limitations 1:20:45.199,1:20:48.719 but here are the things i can do well 1:20:46.719,1:20:52.320 you can communicate those clearly 1:20:48.719,1:20:52.960 then that can be uh that can be a really 1:20:52.320,1:20:56.159 great fit 1:20:52.960,1:20:57.520 you know and it's cool to see like 1:20:56.159,1:20:59.760 it's cool to see because i remember 1:20:57.520,1:21:00.639 seeing you you're you close down your 1:20:59.760,1:21:03.120 agency 1:21:00.639,1:21:05.360 tell me about the burnout and it's cool 1:21:03.120,1:21:08.320 to see that entrepreneurial 1:21:05.360,1:21:08.719 uh streak that you have coming back out 1:21:08.320,1:21:12.840 with 1:21:08.719,1:21:15.840 with java hoover 1:21:12.840,1:21:17.760 um every time i say that's gonna bug me 1:21:15.840,1:21:20.120 it's cool to see that you know because 1:21:17.760,1:21:21.760 like like we there's this term 1:21:20.120,1:21:23.239 intrapreneur i don't know if you've 1:21:21.760,1:21:24.560 heard that where you can be 1:21:23.239,1:21:27.679 entrepreneurial 1:21:24.560,1:21:29.199 but inside of a company and that's what 1:21:27.679,1:21:29.840 i think about when i see how you're 1:21:29.199,1:21:31.440 functioning 1:21:29.840,1:21:33.360 you know at internet and building out 1:21:31.440,1:21:36.080 this product and stuff like that 1:21:33.360,1:21:37.520 and it's cool to see that like you took 1:21:36.080,1:21:38.960 some time you figured out your 1:21:37.520,1:21:39.600 boundaries and things are going really 1:21:38.960,1:21:41.600 well 1:21:39.600,1:21:42.639 but you know you have this desire to 1:21:41.600,1:21:45.840 create 1:21:42.639,1:21:48.480 uh that's issues to 1:21:45.840,1:21:49.840 to to put something into the world and 1:21:48.480,1:21:53.120 not just 1:21:49.840,1:21:55.760 and not just for the sake of a merchant 1:21:53.120,1:21:57.360 or for the company that you work for i 1:21:55.760,1:22:00.400 mean 1:21:57.360,1:22:03.440 i started freelancing while i was 1:22:00.400,1:22:05.520 studying in the second year of my study 1:22:03.440,1:22:07.520 i was doing more freelancing than 1:22:05.520,1:22:10.639 actually going to school 1:22:07.520,1:22:10.639 starting the third year 1:22:10.719,1:22:17.040 i i worked the whole night 1:22:14.639,1:22:18.560 to make a deadline before the morning 1:22:17.040,1:22:21.600 and then in the afternoon 1:22:18.560,1:22:25.120 i went to school to take an exam 1:22:21.600,1:22:28.719 and then get back to work uh 1:22:25.120,1:22:33.360 that was all possible in your 18's um 1:22:28.719,1:22:36.239 but um now we lost the threat 1:22:33.360,1:22:37.840 anyway that's all right actually this is 1:22:36.239,1:22:39.840 probably a good time to wrap things up 1:22:37.840,1:22:41.199 man this is a really good uh 1:22:39.840,1:22:43.520 this is a really good chat it was great 1:22:41.199,1:22:46.880 to catch up um 1:22:43.520,1:22:47.760 but uh where is uh where is the best 1:22:46.880,1:22:52.080 place for 1:22:47.760,1:22:54.070 people to find you online 1:22:52.080,1:22:56.960 um that's 1:22:54.070,1:22:59.360 [Music] 1:22:56.960,1:22:59.360 twitter 1:23:02.800,1:23:06.719 i think you pronounce it 1:23:16.400,1:23:20.639 i always say willem wigman in my head 1:23:18.159,1:23:24.080 that's how i say it 1:23:20.639,1:23:24.080 that's how i that's how i take it 1:23:24.159,1:23:27.440 that works that works and yeah if you 1:23:26.480,1:23:30.159 want to check out 1:23:27.440,1:23:30.719 uh the new front end that we're building 1:23:30.159,1:23:34.480 it's 1:23:30.719,1:23:38.639 h y v a dot io 1:23:34.480,1:23:38.639 nice and how can we talk 1:23:39.400,1:23:45.280 [Laughter] 1:23:41.840,1:23:46.800 and how i know you mentioned uh briefly 1:23:45.280,1:23:48.480 sort of some of the features you have 1:23:46.800,1:23:49.840 left to build like configurable products 1:23:48.480,1:23:53.199 and stuff like that 1:23:49.840,1:23:55.280 um are you targeting when are you 1:23:53.199,1:23:59.199 targeting to be production ready 1:23:55.280,1:24:01.199 to be sort of feature complete yes 1:23:59.199,1:24:03.440 complete that's two different things 1:24:01.199,1:24:03.440 right 1:24:03.920,1:24:06.960 so it's currently production ready but 1:24:06.080,1:24:09.920 what are the 1:24:06.960,1:24:11.120 what are the features that are missing 1:24:09.920,1:24:14.960 yeah i mean a bunch 1:24:11.120,1:24:16.639 well um as you said i'm building out 1:24:14.960,1:24:19.199 configurables 1:24:16.639,1:24:20.639 and that's taking a bit of time because 1:24:19.199,1:24:24.719 i'm reducing complexity 1:24:20.639,1:24:27.040 uh complexity there and 1:24:24.719,1:24:28.719 the way that's written in core magento 1:24:27.040,1:24:30.719 is just 1:24:28.719,1:24:32.239 hard to grasp and i want to change that 1:24:30.719,1:24:35.600 so i'm not i'm not just 1:24:32.239,1:24:39.120 porting stuff from luma over to to viva 1:24:35.600,1:24:40.960 um i really try to rethink and see how 1:24:39.120,1:24:43.280 we can simplify things 1:24:40.960,1:24:45.760 but i have working configurables and 1:24:43.280,1:24:48.080 that's almost done 1:24:45.760,1:24:50.880 then there's a bit of finalization work 1:24:48.080,1:24:50.880 on the wish list 1:24:50.960,1:24:57.920 then probably i move on to bundles 1:24:56.239,1:24:59.520 and then we have some work to do on the 1:24:57.920,1:25:03.120 react checkout 1:24:59.520,1:25:05.040 um but um yeah stuff that will be 1:25:03.120,1:25:08.639 missing from the beginning is 1:25:05.040,1:25:12.159 things like diet pricing um 1:25:08.639,1:25:14.560 compare products um 1:25:12.159,1:25:16.080 i don't think we'll ever have multiple 1:25:14.560,1:25:18.560 address shipping 1:25:16.080,1:25:19.280 i don't even think bwa studio will have 1:25:18.560,1:25:21.840 it 1:25:19.280,1:25:23.600 uh that's just a done done thing and 1:25:21.840,1:25:24.239 yeah so that's a few things like that 1:25:23.600,1:25:26.880 that 1:25:24.239,1:25:28.320 um i think serves the five percent of 1:25:26.880,1:25:31.120 the market 1:25:28.320,1:25:32.000 like compare products i i haven't 1:25:31.120,1:25:34.960 implemented 1:25:32.000,1:25:37.520 any shop using compare in ten years of 1:25:34.960,1:25:37.520 doing materials 1:25:39.040,1:25:42.320 i mean if you have a hardware store and 1:25:41.199,1:25:44.800 you sell computers 1:25:42.320,1:25:46.000 it makes perfect sense so we'll build it 1:25:44.800,1:25:48.639 but it won't be 1:25:46.000,1:25:49.440 in the first release um and we'll 1:25:48.639,1:25:51.520 communicate 1:25:49.440,1:25:52.960 really clearly what features we have and 1:25:51.520,1:25:56.080 what you can expect to be 1:25:52.960,1:25:59.199 in the in the first version um 1:25:56.080,1:26:03.120 i have a wait list that's growing 1:25:59.199,1:26:05.280 um but we'll start except 1:26:03.120,1:26:07.280 accepting people somewhere next 1:26:05.280,1:26:08.800 wednesday so from the people that are 1:26:07.280,1:26:11.920 already on the wait list 1:26:08.800,1:26:12.880 uh we'll be accepting some of those next 1:26:11.920,1:26:15.440 week 1:26:12.880,1:26:16.880 so they'll get an invitation to actually 1:26:15.440,1:26:19.520 buy the license 1:26:16.880,1:26:20.480 um i'm talking with a few agencies that 1:26:19.520,1:26:23.360 are interested 1:26:20.480,1:26:23.760 um got a lot of response of agencies 1:26:23.360,1:26:26.800 that 1:26:23.760,1:26:29.920 really want to help build it out 1:26:26.800,1:26:31.600 um also offers to build out the b2b 1:26:29.920,1:26:34.840 functionalities so to 1:26:31.600,1:26:38.159 to make it a magenta enterprise or 1:26:34.840,1:26:38.159 commerce compatible 1:26:38.480,1:26:41.520 some of them that want to work on the 1:26:40.320,1:26:44.880 accessibility 1:26:41.520,1:26:47.840 or the seo part of it i would expect 1:26:44.880,1:26:48.239 all of the agencies that join that they 1:26:47.840,1:26:50.639 also 1:26:48.239,1:26:51.920 share the compatibility modules that 1:26:50.639,1:26:55.120 were built 1:26:51.920,1:26:56.639 so the ideas you want to wrap up but we 1:26:55.120,1:26:58.960 keep going hey that's okay it's 1:26:56.639,1:27:01.679 important 1:26:58.960,1:27:02.560 so the idea is that we buy the built a 1:27:01.679,1:27:05.280 library 1:27:02.560,1:27:06.800 of compatibility modules so if you have 1:27:05.280,1:27:09.520 this gtm module or 1:27:06.800,1:27:11.760 block module or store locator you pull 1:27:09.520,1:27:15.120 in the original one 1:27:11.760,1:27:16.800 through composer and then you install 1:27:15.120,1:27:18.800 our compatibility module 1:27:16.800,1:27:20.320 that only adds the bits that you need 1:27:18.800,1:27:22.800 for the front end 1:27:20.320,1:27:24.400 so uh we'll overwrite the template files 1:27:22.800,1:27:26.320 in the javascript 1:27:24.400,1:27:27.440 so our compatibility module will be 1:27:26.320,1:27:30.400 really small 1:27:27.440,1:27:31.440 um only replacing the paths that we need 1:27:30.400,1:27:35.040 to replace 1:27:31.440,1:27:37.920 um and yeah the part of 1:27:35.040,1:27:38.480 getting this this community feel is that 1:27:37.920,1:27:40.719 we 1:27:38.480,1:27:43.040 share these modules and they'll be 1:27:40.719,1:27:46.960 available for anyone that has a license 1:27:43.040,1:27:47.679 so imagine we're doing five simultaneous 1:27:46.960,1:27:50.080 builds 1:27:47.679,1:27:51.760 algantos told me they're going to do at 1:27:50.080,1:27:53.760 least 10 next year 1:27:51.760,1:27:55.199 and there's more agencies that are 1:27:53.760,1:27:56.960 saying 1:27:55.199,1:27:58.639 from what we've seen right now and also 1:27:56.960,1:27:59.280 the ones that already already touched 1:27:58.639,1:28:01.440 the code 1:27:59.280,1:28:02.560 they're saying this might be the one 1:28:01.440,1:28:03.600 thing that we're going to do in the 1:28:02.560,1:28:06.800 future 1:28:03.600,1:28:10.719 so maybe not even pwa 1:28:06.800,1:28:12.719 anymore or we do pwa and huva 1:28:10.719,1:28:14.880 and if we get all these agencies on 1:28:12.719,1:28:16.800 board and contribute with this 1:28:14.880,1:28:19.840 compatibility modules 1:28:16.800,1:28:23.679 will have a very large library of 1:28:19.840,1:28:26.960 modules pretty soon and that also 1:28:23.679,1:28:30.480 well we didn't open source the checkout 1:28:26.960,1:28:32.239 without reason that especially so the 1:28:30.480,1:28:32.880 checkout that we build is a react-based 1:28:32.239,1:28:35.040 and 1:28:32.880,1:28:37.360 it's completely headless so if you're 1:28:35.040,1:28:39.040 doing pwa studio you could even use our 1:28:37.360,1:28:42.080 checkouts 1:28:39.040,1:28:43.920 if you use few storefront or luma 1:28:42.080,1:28:46.239 or whatever hapless you could use or 1:28:43.920,1:28:48.080 check out which opens it up for 1:28:46.239,1:28:50.480 contributions for anyone that's doing 1:28:48.080,1:28:52.639 magento um 1:28:50.480,1:28:54.639 i will need to implement shipping and 1:28:52.639,1:28:56.800 payment there for different providers 1:28:54.639,1:28:58.639 and as you know every country has its 1:28:56.800,1:29:02.400 own payments providers 1:28:58.639,1:29:05.840 and so it would really help if 1:29:02.400,1:29:07.920 if we can build it out got it 1:29:05.840,1:29:09.840 yeah yeah that makes sense that sounds 1:29:07.920,1:29:12.000 awesome man well congratulations on all 1:29:09.840,1:29:15.120 the interest in the launch 1:29:12.000,1:29:19.760 very happy for you it looks great and i 1:29:15.120,1:29:19.760 will talk to you soon