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#85 Magento Themes Re-Imagined | Willem Wigman

Willem Wigman is a Magento Developer and eCommerce consultant at integer_net, and the creator of the Hyva theme for Magento.

In this episode we talk about his new approach to the Magento frontend.

Transcript
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so i thought it would it was a bit like

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hoover

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which is the vacuum cleaner yes it's

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like yes image of

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uh of uh hoover your team sucking up

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all the dirt that's gentle

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[Laughter]

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let's go

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[Music]

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all right so how's it going man how's

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your day going before we get started

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here

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my day uh good busy busy

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busy busy yeah um yeah it's just many

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things at once

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um as you know uh

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we launched this product the new front

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end for magento uh

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yeah and well next to that i have my day

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job so

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we're we're building um a couple of web

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shops using

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[Music]

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and are you spending most of the day

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working on that

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yeah well so i'm luckily i'm not i'm not

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building all of those projects but

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i'm trying to to supervise them kind of

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to see

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what people run into we kind of have

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this process where

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um we're building the product while

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we're doing implementations

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so i'm getting a great deal of help from

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integer net my employer

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we have a great partnership where

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we benefit from each other's efforts

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and yeah so there's implementations and

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people are doing their thing and

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i'm trying to take a peek in once in a

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while and see where yet

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and what they did with it and then um

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try to do my best and not to get too

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much involved because

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um that's definitely my pitfall to yeah

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jump in and do everything yeah yeah

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so i'm i'm trying to both um

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keep my vision and the direction of the

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product

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in it but try not to um

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not to pull everything towards myself

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yeah yeah the challenging

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thing itself it's a tough balance but

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it's good that like

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you're um that you have actual people

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implementing like when i saw pj was

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already

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implementing it i was like that's a

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really good sign and

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um you know versus like yeah

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um i mean integer they're my friends

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um i knew them a long while before i

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started working with them

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always saw them on conferences and

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the guys from elgantos same thing like

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two weeks back uh jaron and peter yeah

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both sent me this picture from our first

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hackathon together

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and it was um

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seven years ago eight years ago and uh

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it was a it was a it's it was um

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a special moment for me things changed

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after that like seeing

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doing his stuff in the ide and i was

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still working in this

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dumb coding

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software that well i like the fact that

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it had

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ftp built in so i could directly edit

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stuff from the server

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and don't have all this messing with

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synchronizing and

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right and versioning so are syncing from

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a server to my local machine and then

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having a backup

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that was my my versioning yeah

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um rsc and we got started with that

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hackathon and

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um pdf was like oh

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yeah you're not using phpstorm i was

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like nah i have this whole workflow and

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it works for me

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yeah yeah right right right okay let's

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just get started

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yeah i was just looking at a screen all

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the time and i was

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it took 15 minutes and it started to

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install phpstorm yeah

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yeah so we go back and they were the

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first trusted ones that i

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that i showed the product and

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i knew they have experience with laravel

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and tailwind so they were the

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perfect second uh guinea pig to get

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started with it

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yeah and um yeah that was helpful

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because they were

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also super enthusiastic and then you you

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know

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um you know you what you're working

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towards

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so much energy has gone into this over

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the past

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six months um and

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well i started because i don't know if

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you saw the presentation from reacticon

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fully but

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um i watched a good like 30 40 minutes

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of it this morning and then i thought i

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was

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this is the funny thing about that long

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react video with everything embedded in

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it

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i thought i had watched like 90 of it

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and then i realized there was like a

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bunch of like q and a i think there was

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a bunch of stuff so

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but i got through a lot like because i

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was tracking with the slides

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and then i got to like the end of the

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slides and i was like oh okay i'm i'm

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almost done with it but

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um i didn't that is started improvising

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no actually the whole thing was

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improvised but yeah i got some slides

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no no i set quite a few things in those

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first slides but

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i i really meant to take as much time as

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possible to actually focus on the

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product itself and

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yes it from from year ago he was very

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helpful

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um we we had this run through the

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beginning of the week and um he asked me

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what i wanted to do with q a and i

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showed him the last slide that i had

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ready and it said like

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no way we got this far and this time

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left for questions

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so i would do a q a later and uh he was

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like

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yeah you know it's the closure closing

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of the

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of the conference and um um we just we

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just

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put it after it and we keep going until

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uh until we're done and we make a party

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out of it yeah

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so by the way this feels like the

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podcast already should we get started

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thought you were recording already

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no no no no i said we're not

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yeah i mean i was recording i did record

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it but i was

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i was just kind of catching up before we

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get started

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so yeah so if i'm going to tell the same

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thing again it's going to be less

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genuine it's going to be less yeah yeah

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yeah that's it it's going to sound

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rehearsed

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we'll circle our we'll we'll weave our

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way back to it so that it's uh oh

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man it's organic catching up then done

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yeah that was just to catch up polite i

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haven't let you talk

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at all you have to you have to put

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you have to give me a check you i mean

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your podcast and when i need to shut up

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you need to shut me up

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no no it's good it was really good i was

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like this is great i i had a feeling you

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thought it was a podcast because it was

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great for the podcast

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um but uh are you sure you're sure that

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we

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that we um that this ain't the postcards

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you know what let's make it the podcast

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it is the podcast

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where are where are you doing we need

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structure anyway who needs structure

0:07:28.639,0:07:30.720
yeah you know what that's a good point i

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like that

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i like that it's we're we're in it i

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only have two hours anyway right

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we got we got time we got time yeah we

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got some time for sure

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uh so that i don't know where to go

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but i um so my first question i was

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gonna ask was

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the word java which i know i'm

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pronouncing wrong i think i just heard

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you say it

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it's uh uh but it means in finnish

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it means good is that is that what is

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that what it is yeah

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yeah well that's that's one um

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uh there's there's a bunch of meaning um

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to the word and it's all positive um

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the most common one is viva so

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during conversation do you speak finnish

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by the way because i know you're

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not good okay i lived there for four

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years

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um everyone i hang out with spoke

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english

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so it was basically going to the

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supermarket and just bluffing my way

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through it

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uh seeing how far i would get until the

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the cashier what's it called cashier

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yeah

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yeah the cashier until she would call me

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well

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she would detect my my non-finnish roots

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so i really tried to get my

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pronunciation

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uh pronunciation right nice but hoover

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who is just um it's like

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a ball in french or good in english it's

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like ah good okay let's get going and

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but uh more of those um but it has extra

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meanings like um

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um

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desirable okay

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and um by the way if it seems like i'm

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sweating

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i'm in a whole new i had to move my

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whole set up for my kate for my

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shed because it got too cold back inside

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so it's like

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super hot in here so it's not that

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you're stressing me out or anything like

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that just so you know

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my breath is just in case so it's like

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yeah yeah so just if i had a really

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positive

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uh um uh emotion or

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it gives me a positive feeling and um i

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mean what we're doing it's

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it's uh good and desirable yeah it's um

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yeah so many people's reaction to it has

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been

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um super positive right like there's

0:09:57.120,0:10:00.480
this

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and like even like there's a lot of

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emotion in your voice in the

0:10:01.839,0:10:05.920
presentation

0:10:03.120,0:10:07.440
around like man like um and all the

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tweets you pulled in from the community

0:10:07.440,0:10:12.320
and stuff of people that are just so

0:10:08.880,0:10:12.959
frustrated with um magento 2 development

0:10:12.320,0:10:15.519
whether it's

0:10:12.959,0:10:16.399
the regular luma or pwa or whatever and

0:10:15.519,0:10:19.040
then like

0:10:16.399,0:10:19.600
people are just having a lot of fun with

0:10:19.040,0:10:21.200
uh

0:10:19.600,0:10:23.040
with what you built you know which is

0:10:21.200,0:10:26.640
neat to see

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it so i mean it's all genuine

0:10:26.640,0:10:33.040
i lied awake for for

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two months going through

0:10:33.040,0:10:36.480
um that presentation because it was it

0:10:36.000,0:10:39.200
uh

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i tried to keep my mouth shut as long as

0:10:39.200,0:10:43.279
possible

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uh not spitting my beans and and you did

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a pretty good job

0:10:44.399,0:10:49.519
of that yeah and then still building

0:10:47.360,0:10:50.079
tension so that people would still watch

0:10:49.519,0:10:51.839
without

0:10:50.079,0:10:54.480
even having a title for the for the

0:10:51.839,0:10:56.160
presentation um

0:10:54.480,0:11:01.519
because well you know launching a

0:10:56.160,0:11:04.640
product it's it's it's timely uh

0:11:01.519,0:11:08.399
you eventually people will copy it uh

0:11:04.640,0:11:11.040
better later than sooner yeah yeah

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yeah i i mean i think that's so that was

0:11:11.040,0:11:15.680
one thing

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yeah but also i i yeah i wanted to have

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an impact with the presentation and um

0:11:18.800,0:11:27.680
well a lot of it came from the god um

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um i can get sad about the state of

0:11:27.680,0:11:32.399
magento community

0:11:29.680,0:11:33.600
i can get sad about the choices that are

0:11:32.399,0:11:36.800
being made

0:11:33.600,0:11:39.200
that are out of our reach yeah

0:11:36.800,0:11:41.040
we've been struggling for the last two

0:11:39.200,0:11:44.240
years to

0:11:41.040,0:11:45.920
get the right solution to bring the best

0:11:44.240,0:11:48.000
webshop to our customer to

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the merchants that we work for as an

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implementer and developer

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and having fun doing our job

0:11:54.399,0:11:58.399
and i spent a great deal of time and

0:11:56.880,0:12:03.040
energy

0:11:58.399,0:12:06.240
optimizing uh the luma the old from them

0:12:03.040,0:12:09.120
and it was at that end um um

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we we put a lot of effort in it and last

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year we got great results

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um and i'm beginning of the year well

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like i said in the presentation google

0:12:15.440,0:12:18.399
decided that

0:12:16.399,0:12:19.519
uh we're done with megabytes of

0:12:18.399,0:12:22.639
javascript

0:12:19.519,0:12:24.800
um and that's just that doesn't work for

0:12:22.639,0:12:27.440
a great experience for your visitor

0:12:24.800,0:12:29.920
um sending four or even eight megabytes

0:12:27.440,0:12:32.720
if you fancy doing pwa

0:12:29.920,0:12:33.680
it's um it takes a while to pull it in

0:12:32.720,0:12:36.880
if you're not on

0:12:33.680,0:12:40.000
on a high-speed internet connection

0:12:36.880,0:12:43.519
or other phone device

0:12:40.000,0:12:45.440
and yeah if you want speed you can see

0:12:43.519,0:12:48.880
the demos are up

0:12:45.440,0:12:50.560
we got plenty of it and we're building

0:12:48.880,0:12:53.839
in more features and

0:12:50.560,0:12:57.120
this so far there's no degradation in

0:12:53.839,0:13:00.320
performance so one of the

0:12:57.120,0:13:02.560
responses um well i got

0:13:00.320,0:13:03.600
like i got a handful of people that were

0:13:02.560,0:13:06.639
skeptic because

0:13:03.600,0:13:10.160
um there's just not much in the demo yet

0:13:06.639,0:13:11.279
and we only have simple products um

0:13:10.160,0:13:14.000
and there's some features that we're

0:13:11.279,0:13:16.480
still building out but

0:13:14.000,0:13:18.720
rendering a configurable product page it

0:13:16.480,0:13:20.959
has some drop downs

0:13:18.720,0:13:23.120
and i mean there's some javascript

0:13:20.959,0:13:25.200
behind it to calculate what options they

0:13:23.120,0:13:27.680
influence each other first option

0:13:25.200,0:13:29.760
means you get less options uh if you

0:13:27.680,0:13:31.519
select the color there's less sizes so

0:13:29.760,0:13:34.079
uh there's some things there and

0:13:31.519,0:13:37.839
changing images in the gallery

0:13:34.079,0:13:41.120
but that that all doesn't add up to

0:13:37.839,0:13:45.279
the performance degradation it's

0:13:41.120,0:13:45.279
it's a few lines of javascript

0:13:45.839,0:13:49.920
opposed to megabytes of javascript that

0:13:48.079,0:13:53.199
you normally find in the library

0:13:49.920,0:13:55.600
and we built a whole thing in a way that

0:13:53.199,0:13:57.760
the first render is always a full

0:13:55.600,0:14:00.399
rendered

0:13:57.760,0:14:01.040
php page so you get the raw html in your

0:14:00.399,0:14:03.199
browser

0:14:01.040,0:14:05.920
server side rendering which is the

0:14:03.199,0:14:08.160
toughest not to crack for pwa

0:14:05.920,0:14:10.480
you get the full html to your browser

0:14:08.160,0:14:13.360
and then tailwind

0:14:10.480,0:14:15.440
the css library that we use it generates

0:14:13.360,0:14:19.279
50

0:14:15.440,0:14:22.320
35 kilobytes of css

0:14:19.279,0:14:25.760
and then the the javascript library

0:14:22.320,0:14:28.720
is 50 60 kilobytes and that's it

0:14:25.760,0:14:31.360
and that makes a immediate page render

0:14:28.720,0:14:35.360
like we have a 0.000

0:14:31.360,0:14:38.480
repaint on the first page

0:14:35.360,0:14:40.399
and everything we do that javascript

0:14:38.480,0:14:42.000
loads after the initial page like the

0:14:40.399,0:14:44.480
the dom is rendered and then

0:14:42.000,0:14:45.519
now igs kicks in and they make things

0:14:44.480,0:14:48.880
dynamic

0:14:45.519,0:14:51.440
but um your page is immediately there

0:14:48.880,0:14:53.199
yeah so by the way this is a this is

0:14:51.440,0:14:54.639
kind of a minor thing but on tailwind so

0:14:53.199,0:14:57.680
i use tailwind myself

0:14:54.639,0:15:00.480
i love it it's like so simple um

0:14:57.680,0:15:02.399
but i recently tried to upgrade well i

0:15:00.480,0:15:04.160
wanted to use one of the newer tailwind

0:15:02.399,0:15:06.639
ui components

0:15:04.160,0:15:07.440
and i went in to use it and i needed a

0:15:06.639,0:15:09.120
new version

0:15:07.440,0:15:10.639
of tailwind so i was like well this

0:15:09.120,0:15:13.199
shouldn't be too hard

0:15:10.639,0:15:15.040
there's like a list of like 20 things

0:15:13.199,0:15:15.519
that you got to do to like recompile

0:15:15.040,0:15:17.839
your

0:15:15.519,0:15:19.920
it it's funny because it made me think

0:15:17.839,0:15:23.040
of like a magento upgrade which like

0:15:19.920,0:15:26.240
it's the it's the last like tailwind

0:15:23.040,0:15:28.639
is it feels so simple and clean

0:15:26.240,0:15:30.160
um but up i mean upgrades are always

0:15:28.639,0:15:32.800
complicated when you got to change

0:15:30.160,0:15:33.199
the way things are implemented i imagine

0:15:32.800,0:15:35.360
it's

0:15:33.199,0:15:37.440
it's uh it's surprising that tailwind

0:15:35.360,0:15:39.120
doesn't do this themselves because if i

0:15:37.440,0:15:41.600
think of it it's quite simple but

0:15:39.120,0:15:42.959
i think i would write a shell script

0:15:41.600,0:15:46.320
that we just replaced

0:15:42.959,0:15:49.680
i think some of the things were like gap

0:15:46.320,0:15:51.759
gap uh changed and some

0:15:49.680,0:15:54.800
well just some some naming conventions i

0:15:51.759,0:15:56.720
think and other than that it's not not

0:15:54.800,0:15:58.399
not that big of a deal it's just a lot

0:15:56.720,0:16:00.720
of manual

0:15:58.399,0:16:02.639
uh changing yeah so if you have the list

0:16:00.720,0:16:04.320
of what if you can map them there's a

0:16:02.639,0:16:06.000
shell script you can write it in 30

0:16:04.320,0:16:09.120
minutes and we could publish that to

0:16:06.000,0:16:10.959
all our customers so right right yeah

0:16:09.120,0:16:12.639
that would be nice that much of a

0:16:10.959,0:16:15.680
problem yeah

0:16:12.639,0:16:17.759
um i know i interrupted you midstream as

0:16:15.680,0:16:19.279
you were talking about the whole uh

0:16:17.759,0:16:21.519
kind of the implementation oh man we

0:16:19.279,0:16:23.440
went into ten different paths and i

0:16:21.519,0:16:24.399
started to talk about something and then

0:16:23.440,0:16:26.480
my mind

0:16:24.399,0:16:27.759
changed the next thing and meanwhile i

0:16:26.480,0:16:30.240
remember that i was still

0:16:27.759,0:16:32.000
talking about peter yap and then some

0:16:30.240,0:16:35.600
contacts completely lost

0:16:32.000,0:16:36.000
yeah i i wanted to i wanted to talk a

0:16:35.600,0:16:38.399
little bit

0:16:36.000,0:16:40.320
more about the like the sadness around

0:16:38.399,0:16:42.880
the magento community stuff

0:16:40.320,0:16:44.639
because i like like i said i felt that

0:16:42.880,0:16:46.399
emotion in your voice and i felt that

0:16:44.639,0:16:50.000
myself as well

0:16:46.399,0:16:51.839
um and i think a lot of people feel that

0:16:50.000,0:16:54.480
right like you see people moving to

0:16:51.839,0:16:55.680
other platforms i think for myself

0:16:54.480,0:16:58.480
personally

0:16:55.680,0:17:01.920
um i have gotten a little more

0:16:58.480,0:17:04.559
comfortable with the idea of being

0:17:01.920,0:17:05.600
kind of a multi-platform e-commerce

0:17:04.559,0:17:07.039
world and i'm

0:17:05.600,0:17:08.880
i'm getting interested in other

0:17:07.039,0:17:11.839
platforms and stuff like that

0:17:08.880,0:17:13.520
but it took me a long time to even like

0:17:11.839,0:17:15.120
be okay with that because there's like

0:17:13.520,0:17:16.799
this

0:17:15.120,0:17:18.160
yeah it's cheating right like there's

0:17:16.799,0:17:19.760
this love that you have for the

0:17:18.160,0:17:21.360
community for the platform for your

0:17:19.760,0:17:24.400
history with it

0:17:21.360,0:17:27.919
and i think a lot of us like think back

0:17:24.400,0:17:28.640
to that simpler time when it was just

0:17:27.919,0:17:30.400
magento

0:17:28.640,0:17:32.720
everybody we were all a community that

0:17:30.400,0:17:35.840
was all just focused on one platform

0:17:32.720,0:17:39.280
and we had complaints but they were not

0:17:35.840,0:17:42.080
as bad as the complaints we have now and

0:17:39.280,0:17:43.200
um i i don't know like i think it's i

0:17:42.080,0:17:46.880
think it's a tough

0:17:43.200,0:17:47.360
thing but um i also thought it was a

0:17:46.880,0:17:50.799
little

0:17:47.360,0:17:52.480
i thought there was some irony in um

0:17:50.799,0:17:54.000
the fact that like for example when

0:17:52.480,0:17:55.679
you're talking about your wife's shop

0:17:54.000,0:17:57.679
like wanting to start a shop which is

0:17:55.679,0:18:00.000
why you did this

0:17:57.679,0:18:01.760
yeah that's oh you bring me back to let

0:18:00.000,0:18:03.840
me interrupt you now for a second okay

0:18:01.760,0:18:05.440
that's what i started to talk about so

0:18:03.840,0:18:06.480
that was the thing that was the

0:18:05.440,0:18:08.799
initiator

0:18:06.480,0:18:10.960
yeah building a shop for my wife and

0:18:08.799,0:18:11.919
meantime i have a product i have two

0:18:10.960,0:18:15.840
webshops live

0:18:11.919,0:18:15.840
and my wife doesn't

0:18:18.080,0:18:22.320
but i promise her she's getting it

0:18:20.160,0:18:22.880
before uh before the beginning of next

0:18:22.320,0:18:26.960
year

0:18:22.880,0:18:29.120
right right that's funny

0:18:26.960,0:18:31.200
but like i thought there was some so

0:18:29.120,0:18:33.520
like as you were talking about it like

0:18:31.200,0:18:35.280
in the chat like ben marks was saying

0:18:33.520,0:18:37.679
i could never imagine using magento 2

0:18:35.280,0:18:40.400
for like a small simple store

0:18:37.679,0:18:41.280
and the whole purpose of your thing is

0:18:40.400,0:18:44.000
basically like

0:18:41.280,0:18:46.240
right tool for the job it's like hey pwa

0:18:44.000,0:18:47.039
is cool maybe for a twitter or a nike or

0:18:46.240,0:18:49.120
whatever

0:18:47.039,0:18:50.480
but you have to pick the right tool for

0:18:49.120,0:18:52.400
the job and for

0:18:50.480,0:18:54.160
a lot of these jobs that we're doing

0:18:52.400,0:18:57.679
it's like a website

0:18:54.160,0:19:00.080
is the right tool for the job um

0:18:57.679,0:19:01.280
and i thought it was it was like on

0:19:00.080,0:19:02.640
another level

0:19:01.280,0:19:05.120
right like you're totally right about

0:19:02.640,0:19:07.280
that but like on another level

0:19:05.120,0:19:08.559
it's like you're wanting to use magento

0:19:07.280,0:19:11.280
for something

0:19:08.559,0:19:12.400
that may be like is it the right tool

0:19:11.280,0:19:14.160
for the job you know what i mean like

0:19:12.400,0:19:17.120
what does shopify be

0:19:14.160,0:19:18.320
make more sense for that simple simple

0:19:17.120,0:19:21.360
shop yeah so that

0:19:18.320,0:19:24.640
that that depends also

0:19:21.360,0:19:25.280
on the implementer i guess and i think

0:19:24.640,0:19:28.080
we're

0:19:25.280,0:19:30.160
opening back up a space in a market

0:19:28.080,0:19:31.520
where smaller agencies or freelancers

0:19:30.160,0:19:35.280
can jump in

0:19:31.520,0:19:36.559
and that's where riker started probably

0:19:35.280,0:19:39.120
you also got started with

0:19:36.559,0:19:40.240
a smaller project low budget you make

0:19:39.120,0:19:43.440
mistakes

0:19:40.240,0:19:44.559
you fall you get up you learn and with

0:19:43.440,0:19:48.880
every new project

0:19:44.559,0:19:52.320
the price goes up with current magento 2

0:19:48.880,0:19:56.480
um that doesn't seem possible anymore

0:19:52.320,0:19:56.480
yeah especially if you're looking at pwa

0:19:56.720,0:19:59.760
everything becomes bespoke and the tech

0:19:59.200,0:20:01.679
stack

0:19:59.760,0:20:02.960
becomes bigger yeah and it was one of

0:20:01.679,0:20:07.600
the main things that

0:20:02.960,0:20:07.600
well i emphasized on during react again

0:20:07.919,0:20:12.400
we're not making things simpler and

0:20:10.559,0:20:14.640
quite the opposite

0:20:12.400,0:20:16.799
and that's not only performance or the

0:20:14.640,0:20:19.679
amount of javascript that we ship

0:20:16.799,0:20:21.919
the stack grows and it gets more

0:20:19.679,0:20:25.360
complicated and especially javascript

0:20:21.919,0:20:26.320
if if you look at the traditional

0:20:25.360,0:20:28.240
frontliners

0:20:26.320,0:20:29.840
they're quite intimidated by the amount

0:20:28.240,0:20:33.280
of javascript

0:20:29.840,0:20:34.159
that's in in pwas and they're not only

0:20:33.280,0:20:36.640
intimidated

0:20:34.159,0:20:38.480
it's just it's just hard to grasp some

0:20:36.640,0:20:42.880
things and we're not all james settling

0:20:38.480,0:20:45.760
who uh i have immense respect

0:20:42.880,0:20:46.400
yeah and i think it's really cool what

0:20:45.760,0:20:48.880
he does

0:20:46.400,0:20:50.880
and i'm super intrigued if i watch him

0:20:48.880,0:20:54.320
do stuff and

0:20:50.880,0:20:57.440
but that's not me that's not

0:20:54.320,0:21:00.799
i cannot perform on that level of

0:20:57.440,0:21:02.240
concentration the whole day sometimes

0:21:00.799,0:21:04.080
you need to dump things down a little

0:21:02.240,0:21:07.360
bit

0:21:04.080,0:21:11.039
yeah i mean in the end the

0:21:07.360,0:21:13.280
the fun in coding uh the fun in coding

0:21:11.039,0:21:14.640
is on the one hand puzzling figuring

0:21:13.280,0:21:16.480
stuff out

0:21:14.640,0:21:18.159
learning new stuff and having this

0:21:16.480,0:21:20.240
feeling of

0:21:18.159,0:21:22.240
accomplishment that you that that

0:21:20.240,0:21:24.799
something would have worked out

0:21:22.240,0:21:26.799
and you can have a certain amount of

0:21:24.799,0:21:27.840
that i know you code one hour a day now

0:21:26.799,0:21:29.600
and it's probably

0:21:27.840,0:21:31.200
that's reason because you need eight

0:21:29.600,0:21:34.400
hours to think to do

0:21:31.200,0:21:37.919
something really good in one hour um

0:21:34.400,0:21:41.120
that's not that good but it's

0:21:37.919,0:21:44.480
okay it's just

0:21:41.120,0:21:46.480
yeah and the rest of the day

0:21:44.480,0:21:47.760
ideally you would fill with things that

0:21:46.480,0:21:50.640
you've already learned

0:21:47.760,0:21:51.200
and that go easy and there's a lot of

0:21:50.640,0:21:53.600
fun of

0:21:51.200,0:21:55.200
in that as well to by the end of the day

0:21:53.600,0:21:57.520
have accomplished a lot of things

0:21:55.200,0:21:59.120
just build stuff yeah and have it flow

0:21:57.520,0:22:00.960
out of your fingers just smash the

0:21:59.120,0:22:02.799
keyboard and by the end of the day

0:22:00.960,0:22:04.960
you build a new feature and you have

0:22:02.799,0:22:09.200
something you can present to a client

0:22:04.960,0:22:09.679
and through the years magento has become

0:22:09.200,0:22:12.559
more of

0:22:09.679,0:22:13.919
more and more and more of just debugging

0:22:12.559,0:22:16.880
and debugging and spending

0:22:13.919,0:22:18.000
whole days of figuring out why something

0:22:16.880,0:22:20.960
doesn't work

0:22:18.000,0:22:22.000
and in our experience with pwa

0:22:20.960,0:22:23.760
especially with

0:22:22.000,0:22:25.200
middleware that comes in between where

0:22:23.760,0:22:28.080
there's a lot of logic

0:22:25.200,0:22:30.880
happening on in nodes and processes that

0:22:28.080,0:22:32.880
we don't understand as frontliners

0:22:30.880,0:22:34.559
and even our backenders had a lot of

0:22:32.880,0:22:36.240
issues um

0:22:34.559,0:22:37.760
understanding stuff for the paypal

0:22:36.240,0:22:41.120
integration where

0:22:37.760,0:22:44.400
simply data was lost somewhere

0:22:41.120,0:22:45.919
and we didn't know it was about a token

0:22:44.400,0:22:49.679
that wasn't persisted

0:22:45.919,0:22:52.240
or i don't even know but it took

0:22:49.679,0:22:53.760
way too long to figure it out and i've

0:22:52.240,0:22:56.799
heard stories of

0:22:53.760,0:23:00.000
seven figure um projects on

0:22:56.799,0:23:02.880
on pwa that

0:23:00.000,0:23:04.400
on a fixed budget that went over budget

0:23:02.880,0:23:08.640
like eight or nine times

0:23:04.400,0:23:12.240
yeah um on a extremely

0:23:08.640,0:23:15.280
um capable agency um

0:23:12.240,0:23:18.960
so you can't put that on on

0:23:15.280,0:23:20.000
incompetence um some highly respected

0:23:18.960,0:23:22.880
people

0:23:20.000,0:23:24.159
just not being able to deliver within

0:23:22.880,0:23:26.480
constraints

0:23:24.159,0:23:28.400
and of course everything is new we still

0:23:26.480,0:23:32.159
need to figure stuff out but

0:23:28.400,0:23:34.080
this is how are you supposed to do

0:23:32.159,0:23:34.840
something for a mid-market merchant with

0:23:34.080,0:23:38.080
this

0:23:34.840,0:23:42.320
technology um maybe in four years but

0:23:38.080,0:23:45.679
i wonder how much of all that javascript

0:23:42.320,0:23:47.440
is left in four years um

0:23:45.679,0:23:49.440
to me it really feels like we're back in

0:23:47.440,0:23:51.679
the era of flash development

0:23:49.440,0:23:53.279
and i really love that they're like i

0:23:51.679,0:23:56.000
thought that was a really

0:23:53.279,0:23:57.679
interesting parallel that you drew um

0:23:56.000,0:23:59.520
that you're like listen i remember when

0:23:57.679,0:24:02.720
i was doing flash and flex

0:23:59.520,0:24:03.120
app development and it feels similar to

0:24:02.720,0:24:05.200
that

0:24:03.120,0:24:06.159
everything is an app and then like for a

0:24:05.200,0:24:07.520
while

0:24:06.159,0:24:08.880
it was like there was a lot of people

0:24:07.520,0:24:09.600
that thought everything was going to be

0:24:08.880,0:24:11.520
flash

0:24:09.600,0:24:14.000
you know like let's make everything you

0:24:11.520,0:24:16.799
know and it was we did build everything

0:24:14.000,0:24:18.240
i mean whatever it was i would build it

0:24:16.799,0:24:21.840
with flash i would build a

0:24:18.240,0:24:25.200
php back-end with modix a

0:24:21.840,0:24:25.840
very simple cms i would generate xml

0:24:25.200,0:24:28.320
through

0:24:25.840,0:24:29.760
that cms and then flash would read the

0:24:28.320,0:24:33.360
xml

0:24:29.760,0:24:35.039
and you would have a full cms

0:24:33.360,0:24:36.640
flash would render the menu and the

0:24:35.039,0:24:38.720
content and everything and

0:24:36.640,0:24:40.559
it didn't really make sense but it was a

0:24:38.720,0:24:43.760
lot of fun to do

0:24:40.559,0:24:44.640
but then luckily we had steve jobs that

0:24:43.760,0:24:47.120
pulled the plug

0:24:44.640,0:24:47.760
and for pwa i don't know who it's going

0:24:47.120,0:24:50.880
to be but

0:24:47.760,0:24:53.120
um i have the feeling that this is going

0:24:50.880,0:24:56.000
to be a point where

0:24:53.120,0:24:57.039
well well the majority of people will

0:24:56.000,0:25:00.320
stand still

0:24:57.039,0:25:02.400
and think like how did we end up here

0:25:00.320,0:25:03.679
but the difference you know it's it's an

0:25:02.400,0:25:06.400
interesting parallel

0:25:03.679,0:25:06.720
right by the way yeah yeah it but the

0:25:06.400,0:25:10.080
the

0:25:06.720,0:25:12.480
the the huge difference is that

0:25:10.080,0:25:14.080
um a lot of the like pwa standards are

0:25:12.480,0:25:16.960
being driven by google

0:25:14.080,0:25:18.400
right google being sort of the the

0:25:16.960,0:25:20.159
company that has the most vested

0:25:18.400,0:25:24.240
interest in the web

0:25:20.159,0:25:26.159
um so and it's like you know a pwa by

0:25:24.240,0:25:28.320
strict definition is very simple it's

0:25:26.159,0:25:30.080
like you've got a worker and you've got

0:25:28.320,0:25:32.640
a couple features you can use it's like

0:25:30.080,0:25:34.880
yeah it can be very simple it's

0:25:32.640,0:25:39.760
somewhere on the road map

0:25:34.880,0:25:43.039
so and people say this

0:25:39.760,0:25:44.640
why why put this on pwa because pw

0:25:43.039,0:25:46.480
is just a manifest file and a service

0:25:44.640,0:25:47.039
worker right and they're absolutely

0:25:46.480,0:25:48.799
right

0:25:47.039,0:25:50.159
right and if you stick it on something

0:25:48.799,0:25:52.400
that's performant

0:25:50.159,0:25:53.919
um it's a great thing and having

0:25:52.400,0:25:55.919
notifications and

0:25:53.919,0:25:57.840
having background processes to fetch

0:25:55.919,0:25:59.679
data before someone actually goes to a

0:25:57.840,0:26:02.960
different page and offline mode

0:25:59.679,0:26:05.279
that's all very nice but currently pwa

0:26:02.960,0:26:07.840
is a synonym or

0:26:05.279,0:26:08.400
it's represented by javascript's

0:26:07.840,0:26:12.799
libraries

0:26:08.400,0:26:17.039
right right and um the promise of pwa

0:26:12.799,0:26:20.320
is speed and performance and

0:26:17.039,0:26:23.440
we're not seeing that exactly

0:26:20.320,0:26:25.840
and yeah i don't know i mean

0:26:23.440,0:26:25.840
um

0:26:26.480,0:26:30.480
maybe that maybe the technology will

0:26:28.960,0:26:33.440
will

0:26:30.480,0:26:34.640
move somewhere that you have a lower

0:26:33.440,0:26:37.840
payload when you

0:26:34.640,0:26:39.760
visit a page the first time and i mean

0:26:37.840,0:26:41.120
it pulls in different content when you

0:26:39.760,0:26:43.679
start navigating but

0:26:41.120,0:26:45.520
the amount of javascript that you need

0:26:43.679,0:26:49.760
to do the routing

0:26:45.520,0:26:50.720
to just fetch all the data there's so

0:26:49.760,0:26:52.799
many different

0:26:50.720,0:26:54.880
graphql calls that you need and you

0:26:52.799,0:26:58.159
somehow need to

0:26:54.880,0:26:59.600
persist that in the browser and it's all

0:26:58.159,0:27:03.120
just really complicated

0:26:59.600,0:27:03.120
and and it makes me wonder

0:27:03.520,0:27:06.640
you can talk an hour about how server

0:27:05.360,0:27:10.720
side rendering

0:27:06.640,0:27:13.440
uh can be built for bwa

0:27:10.720,0:27:14.559
defects issue that that wasn't an issue

0:27:13.440,0:27:17.520
in the first place

0:27:14.559,0:27:19.039
because the current magento front end

0:27:17.520,0:27:22.720
has server side running

0:27:19.039,0:27:24.799
yeah and i don't know did you get

0:27:22.720,0:27:27.120
i don't know how far you got in my talk

0:27:24.799,0:27:32.159
but uh i put in a small bun

0:27:27.120,0:27:33.919
um that um i built the first magento pws

0:27:32.159,0:27:35.520
oh i think i might have seen that yeah i

0:27:33.919,0:27:38.159
think i might have seen that

0:27:35.520,0:27:38.559
i was surprised that no one no one got

0:27:38.159,0:27:42.000
got

0:27:38.559,0:27:43.760
uh noticed noticed or or

0:27:42.000,0:27:45.440
said anything about that is it just

0:27:43.760,0:27:48.960
progressive website

0:27:45.440,0:27:52.159
is that the is that the joke no no no no

0:27:48.960,0:27:53.760
so before we do pwa we should do pws and

0:27:52.159,0:27:56.240
it stands for proper website

0:27:53.760,0:27:56.240
okay

0:27:57.679,0:28:02.640
i love it by the way your slides your

0:28:00.480,0:28:05.679
slides were great like

0:28:02.640,0:28:08.880
like uh the just the storytelling

0:28:05.679,0:28:10.559
of like the problem you had the problem

0:28:08.880,0:28:13.360
with your wife's store

0:28:10.559,0:28:16.399
like you had a lot of clever stuff in

0:28:13.360,0:28:18.320
there like don't lose your head and um

0:28:16.399,0:28:20.159
stuff like that the slides you had like

0:28:18.320,0:28:22.399
the light it was very data driven you

0:28:20.159,0:28:24.960
had all the lighthouse scores

0:28:22.399,0:28:26.799
um and you know the launch of your

0:28:24.960,0:28:28.840
product coincided with it so i thought

0:28:26.799,0:28:30.880
your slides and your and your talk were

0:28:28.840,0:28:32.320
great um

0:28:30.880,0:28:33.600
it's been a while since i've watched a

0:28:32.320,0:28:35.679
tech talk so i thought you did a really

0:28:33.600,0:28:38.000
good job with it

0:28:35.679,0:28:40.640
thanks thanks yeah did you have fun

0:28:38.000,0:28:43.919
putting it together

0:28:40.640,0:28:45.360
yeah so it was exhausting like i said i

0:28:43.919,0:28:46.810
spent two months just

0:28:45.360,0:28:48.480
laying awake

0:28:46.810,0:28:50.480
[Music]

0:28:48.480,0:28:51.840
having all this information in my head

0:28:50.480,0:28:53.919
and the

0:28:51.840,0:28:57.120
the small buns that i wanted to make and

0:28:53.919,0:29:00.000
i had these memes and i i made them up

0:28:57.120,0:29:01.440
like two months before and uh yeah yeah

0:29:00.000,0:29:03.679
then i would forget it again

0:29:01.440,0:29:05.200
and then i would i was just focusing on

0:29:03.679,0:29:06.559
keeping all that information together

0:29:05.200,0:29:08.159
and then trying to figure out

0:29:06.559,0:29:10.080
what the right order would be and how to

0:29:08.159,0:29:13.760
build it up and then how to do the

0:29:10.080,0:29:15.279
reveal and so um kind of have a

0:29:13.760,0:29:17.520
general tech talk and people would

0:29:15.279,0:29:19.600
expect me to to um

0:29:17.520,0:29:22.399
do one rebuild and it would be an

0:29:19.600,0:29:26.080
experiment and then

0:29:22.399,0:29:29.200
it's a product yeah yeah and uh it was

0:29:26.080,0:29:32.480
really good it really was

0:29:29.200,0:29:36.050
thanks yeah so much um

0:29:32.480,0:29:37.279
so much went into that um but um

0:29:36.050,0:29:39.679
[Music]

0:29:37.279,0:29:41.840
yeah the saturday before i sat down and

0:29:39.679,0:29:46.559
i just spent six hours putting together

0:29:41.840,0:29:49.840
slides and that was a lot of fun because

0:29:46.559,0:29:49.840
then i could literally just

0:29:50.080,0:29:56.080
offload my brain and

0:29:54.080,0:29:58.480
from there on i slept a lot better

0:29:56.080,0:30:00.559
because i i had a structure

0:29:58.480,0:30:02.480
i put everything down that that was

0:30:00.559,0:30:05.919
living in my head for such a long time

0:30:02.480,0:30:06.399
right and then well of course you have a

0:30:05.919,0:30:08.399
bit of

0:30:06.399,0:30:09.600
tension build up before such a

0:30:08.399,0:30:12.799
presentation but

0:30:09.600,0:30:15.279
i felt confident um because wow if

0:30:12.799,0:30:18.960
you're so deep into material

0:30:15.279,0:30:21.840
it's it's harder to stop talking than

0:30:18.960,0:30:23.360
to get started yeah i noticed i i

0:30:21.840,0:30:25.039
noticed that like you tweeted that you

0:30:23.360,0:30:26.880
were like meditating just before you

0:30:25.039,0:30:29.919
started the uh

0:30:26.880,0:30:32.559
the the presentation and um i've been

0:30:29.919,0:30:33.919
i've been um starting to do a little bit

0:30:32.559,0:30:35.200
of that myself and

0:30:33.919,0:30:37.360
so i'm always interested like i was

0:30:35.200,0:30:38.960
talking to uh laura falco about it and

0:30:37.360,0:30:41.600
she was saying she meditated so

0:30:38.960,0:30:42.080
i'm always curious to like ask people

0:30:41.600,0:30:45.039
about

0:30:42.080,0:30:45.840
you know what their meditation looks

0:30:45.039,0:30:49.039
like

0:30:45.840,0:30:53.279
um so i just um

0:30:49.039,0:30:55.600
i i tried using um the app the um

0:30:53.279,0:30:57.200
which one was it not calm but the other

0:30:55.600,0:30:58.960
one no

0:30:57.200,0:31:01.679
whatever the other one was but that was

0:30:58.960,0:31:01.679
about a year ago

0:31:03.039,0:31:06.960
it's uh what's it called um i can't

0:31:05.840,0:31:09.200
remember but

0:31:06.960,0:31:10.799
i tried using that about a year ago and

0:31:09.200,0:31:14.880
it has these like five

0:31:10.799,0:31:16.240
minute um uh like sessions

0:31:14.880,0:31:18.399
and so i was doing the five minute

0:31:16.240,0:31:20.559
sessions and it was like working

0:31:18.399,0:31:22.480
and then um and then i was like this is

0:31:20.559,0:31:24.000
great so then i like paid for it i was

0:31:22.480,0:31:26.080
on the like free version

0:31:24.000,0:31:27.200
and i like paid for it and then i got

0:31:26.080,0:31:29.279
like 10 minute

0:31:27.200,0:31:30.399
sessions and then the 10 minutes was

0:31:29.279,0:31:33.679
just too much

0:31:30.399,0:31:35.120
it was like i just got like frustrated

0:31:33.679,0:31:36.640
with it so then i kind of gave up that

0:31:35.120,0:31:39.840
was about a year ago

0:31:36.640,0:31:41.440
and then i kept hearing about it and so

0:31:39.840,0:31:43.279
recently i just

0:31:41.440,0:31:45.279
it's the way i do now is just simpler i

0:31:43.279,0:31:49.440
just i play some music and i just

0:31:45.279,0:31:50.640
sit and you know try not to think or

0:31:49.440,0:31:53.679
sometimes i'll try to

0:31:50.640,0:31:54.559
like visualize something but i just kind

0:31:53.679,0:31:56.399
of do it throughout

0:31:54.559,0:31:58.000
like like a lot of times before podcasts

0:31:56.399,0:32:00.399
i'll do it a little bit as well

0:31:58.000,0:32:02.799
just kind of yeah get centered a little

0:32:00.399,0:32:03.919
bit i just went for a quick walk before

0:32:02.799,0:32:06.399
we got started

0:32:03.919,0:32:06.960
uh just spent some time away from the

0:32:06.399,0:32:09.919
screen

0:32:06.960,0:32:10.640
yeah so helps a lot i always thought

0:32:09.919,0:32:14.000
that for me

0:32:10.640,0:32:15.600
the best way um and to

0:32:14.000,0:32:17.200
empty my hat was actually to do

0:32:15.600,0:32:20.159
something

0:32:17.200,0:32:21.679
and uh i've been on and off doing things

0:32:20.159,0:32:23.760
like climbing

0:32:21.679,0:32:25.679
i did that defended the lot bordering so

0:32:23.760,0:32:27.519
actually going into the woods and

0:32:25.679,0:32:29.919
put down a mattress in the middle of the

0:32:27.519,0:32:33.279
woods and just start climbing a rock

0:32:29.919,0:32:36.880
and that's cool and things like

0:32:33.279,0:32:38.559
gardening or um when it's sports

0:32:36.880,0:32:39.919
i i really need something that takes

0:32:38.559,0:32:42.720
high attention like

0:32:39.919,0:32:44.880
playing squash because then as soon as

0:32:42.720,0:32:48.320
you step into the box

0:32:44.880,0:32:49.679
and uh and the ball you hit the ball

0:32:48.320,0:32:51.840
you're gone you need your full

0:32:49.679,0:32:55.360
concentration to be in the game

0:32:51.840,0:32:59.120
yeah and then if i if i have an hour of

0:32:55.360,0:33:00.960
playing squash um my my body is drained

0:32:59.120,0:33:03.679
my mind is empty

0:33:00.960,0:33:04.720
that that works really well but that's

0:33:03.679,0:33:08.720
kind of putting

0:33:04.720,0:33:11.120
putting um putting everything on hold in

0:33:08.720,0:33:13.279
your mind it's not

0:33:11.120,0:33:14.880
i think it also sometimes helps in the

0:33:13.279,0:33:17.519
process of meditating

0:33:14.880,0:33:19.600
to to get your mind in order and it's

0:33:17.519,0:33:20.320
not necessarily always just trying not

0:33:19.600,0:33:22.240
to think

0:33:20.320,0:33:24.000
or something and cleaning your head but

0:33:22.240,0:33:27.760
it could also help just focusing

0:33:24.000,0:33:30.960
on um emotions

0:33:27.760,0:33:33.200
um if

0:33:30.960,0:33:35.039
if you're not feeling okay or if there's

0:33:33.200,0:33:35.440
something you you don't know exactly

0:33:35.039,0:33:37.919
what

0:33:35.440,0:33:38.640
it it can help just to sit just to sit

0:33:37.919,0:33:41.760
and

0:33:38.640,0:33:42.240
and see why and how your body is doing

0:33:41.760,0:33:46.080
and

0:33:42.240,0:33:52.799
where the pains are it's um

0:33:46.080,0:33:56.240
when was in finland 12 14 years ago

0:33:52.799,0:33:58.080
yeah some maybe some ten years ago um

0:33:56.240,0:34:00.399
i remembered that the first times that i

0:33:58.080,0:34:03.600
really tried to do meditating was there

0:34:00.399,0:34:05.039
um my wife was on a dance education

0:34:03.600,0:34:07.519
there she's dutch but she

0:34:05.039,0:34:08.399
she moved to finland for the dance

0:34:07.519,0:34:12.159
education i

0:34:08.399,0:34:15.119
i just followed and it would be fun um

0:34:12.159,0:34:16.320
and there was a lot of this uh

0:34:15.119,0:34:17.839
open-minded

0:34:16.320,0:34:21.839
business going on there with

0:34:17.839,0:34:21.839
international students

0:34:22.159,0:34:27.040
and i don't mean i don't mean sex and

0:34:25.040,0:34:30.320
drugs but

0:34:27.040,0:34:33.359
yeah very alternative yeah

0:34:30.320,0:34:35.520
yeah and that that's really

0:34:33.359,0:34:37.760
opened me up for a lot of things as well

0:34:35.520,0:34:37.760
um

0:34:38.560,0:34:42.399
and i i remember first time trying to

0:34:40.560,0:34:43.359
meditating was there with a group of

0:34:42.399,0:34:46.480
students and they

0:34:43.359,0:34:48.399
fought once a week in the evening we we

0:34:46.480,0:34:50.320
go and do a meditation together

0:34:48.399,0:34:51.599
we do a guided one with the recorded

0:34:50.320,0:34:53.440
session and

0:34:51.599,0:34:54.720
i remember just sitting there and

0:34:53.440,0:34:58.160
thinking there was

0:34:54.720,0:35:01.440
a way i supposed to sit like on my knees

0:34:58.160,0:35:03.920
and the back straight and

0:35:01.440,0:35:05.440
just really doing it properly like

0:35:03.920,0:35:07.920
there's rules for it

0:35:05.440,0:35:09.440
and i just remember my back would hurt

0:35:07.920,0:35:11.119
and i couldn't get my mind off

0:35:09.440,0:35:12.960
of my back and then my knees started to

0:35:11.119,0:35:14.720
hurt and then my feet and

0:35:12.960,0:35:16.880
my my legs started sleeping and i was

0:35:14.720,0:35:20.000
like oh my god this is nothing for me

0:35:16.880,0:35:23.359
yeah yeah and um

0:35:20.000,0:35:26.400
so my my um the parents of my wife

0:35:23.359,0:35:28.400
um or her father is a teacher in

0:35:26.400,0:35:29.440
mindfulness it has been for quite some

0:35:28.400,0:35:32.560
years now

0:35:29.440,0:35:35.920
um so we're a bit in that uh

0:35:32.560,0:35:40.320
in that area yeah so

0:35:35.920,0:35:42.880
i've learned a bit from that um and um

0:35:40.320,0:35:44.160
yeah don't make it so hard on yourself

0:35:42.880,0:35:46.000
um

0:35:44.160,0:35:47.520
i mean it's all about being gentle to

0:35:46.000,0:35:49.359
yourself so why put yourself on

0:35:47.520,0:35:51.119
restrictions how you would sit

0:35:49.359,0:35:52.720
yeah if you're more comfortable sitting

0:35:51.119,0:35:55.280
on your butt just sit on your butt

0:35:52.720,0:35:56.480
yeah and if there's faults just accept

0:35:55.280,0:35:58.960
the thoughts just don't

0:35:56.480,0:36:00.400
don't criticize them and don't don't

0:35:58.960,0:36:02.079
push too hard and

0:36:00.400,0:36:04.560
the more time you spend the easier it

0:36:02.079,0:36:06.240
gets but now it sounds like i'm just

0:36:04.560,0:36:07.839
meditating all the time but i'm just

0:36:06.240,0:36:11.040
using it whenever when

0:36:07.839,0:36:12.880
whenever the heat is there yeah

0:36:11.040,0:36:15.119
i have this whole thing with my burnout

0:36:12.880,0:36:19.119
here three four years ago where

0:36:15.119,0:36:21.440
it was a much bigger thing for me um

0:36:19.119,0:36:26.000
nowadays my my mind is a lot stronger i

0:36:21.440,0:36:28.880
can endure a lot more so um

0:36:26.000,0:36:29.680
yeah not not doing it too much yeah at

0:36:28.880,0:36:32.000
the moment but

0:36:29.680,0:36:33.520
that's good yeah before reacticon has

0:36:32.000,0:36:35.680
just so much build up that

0:36:33.520,0:36:38.320
it really helped just to it does take

0:36:35.680,0:36:40.560
some calmness before uh before jumping

0:36:38.320,0:36:42.400
yeah you seem um i think this is the

0:36:40.560,0:36:45.760
first time we've actually talked

0:36:42.400,0:36:48.320
but um yeah you uh

0:36:45.760,0:36:49.119
you seem very i'm just i'm stealing i'm

0:36:48.320,0:36:52.000
stealing

0:36:49.119,0:36:52.960
um the mic all the time no no no i just

0:36:52.000,0:36:54.960
like to talk and

0:36:52.960,0:36:56.560
immediately like there's something that

0:36:54.960,0:36:58.560
i thought of that i want to say and

0:36:56.560,0:37:00.560
i love it i'm gonna let you talk no no

0:36:58.560,0:37:04.320
no i really love it man it's that's what

0:37:00.560,0:37:04.320
that's what uh that's what i'm here for

0:37:06.839,0:37:11.280
um

0:37:09.680,0:37:12.880
i was just gonna say you do seem very

0:37:11.280,0:37:14.480
like centered and even in your

0:37:12.880,0:37:16.560
even in your talk like you just seem

0:37:14.480,0:37:19.040
very kind of centered

0:37:16.560,0:37:20.480
uh that was all i was gonna say but now

0:37:19.040,0:37:22.160
i'm curious to know what you were about

0:37:20.480,0:37:24.880
to say

0:37:22.160,0:37:26.240
yeah so when i was walking to to get

0:37:24.880,0:37:29.280
something to eat

0:37:26.240,0:37:31.040
since it's friday evening here

0:37:29.280,0:37:33.760
just before we called i was walking i

0:37:31.040,0:37:36.000
was thinking it's

0:37:33.760,0:37:38.079
maybe a few days apart but almost

0:37:36.000,0:37:39.680
exactly a year ago was the first time i

0:37:38.079,0:37:42.800
met philip

0:37:39.680,0:37:42.800
at the mleu

0:37:42.960,0:37:46.800
and almost a full year later i think

0:37:44.960,0:37:47.520
that was somewhere four or five days ago

0:37:46.800,0:37:50.880
it was

0:37:47.520,0:37:53.440
i saw on instagram i got a reminder from

0:37:50.880,0:37:54.320
one year ago uh what was this great body

0:37:53.440,0:37:57.359
in amsterdam

0:37:54.320,0:37:58.560
nice so yeah yeah the first time philip

0:37:57.359,0:38:00.960
first time you

0:37:58.560,0:38:01.760
um a lot of first terms everything a lot

0:38:00.960,0:38:04.800
of first times

0:38:01.760,0:38:08.079
yeah um so

0:38:04.800,0:38:12.240
uh jumping back to the um

0:38:08.079,0:38:12.240
to haiva how do you pronounce it again

0:38:13.359,0:38:18.880
okay uh

0:38:16.640,0:38:18.880
hold

0:38:24.160,0:38:29.040
get my attention away from it for 42

0:38:27.520,0:38:33.040
minutes

0:38:29.040,0:38:34.720
say my name managed to go this whole

0:38:33.040,0:38:35.440
thing see that's how that's how good i

0:38:34.720,0:38:37.599
am

0:38:35.440,0:38:39.440
without even doing the issue it's it's a

0:38:37.599,0:38:40.560
villain i mean it's not that complicated

0:38:39.440,0:38:43.599
right

0:38:40.560,0:38:45.599
yeah yeah yeah all right

0:38:43.599,0:38:47.040
i don't understand the difference how

0:38:45.599,0:38:51.280
long did you practice

0:38:47.040,0:38:53.520
i practiced it like five times

0:38:51.280,0:38:54.960
i definitely did some practicing but i

0:38:53.520,0:38:58.160
don't understand

0:38:54.960,0:39:01.440
the difference between a w and a v in

0:38:58.160,0:39:05.359
in the way you guys pronounce

0:39:01.440,0:39:09.040
yeah the way we pronounce it okay

0:39:05.359,0:39:09.040
it's it sounds like a v

0:39:11.839,0:39:15.839
what what

0:39:19.230,0:39:22.409
[Music]

0:39:24.560,0:39:31.520
and if you say very

0:39:28.640,0:39:32.560
i think i see i think funny anecdotes so

0:39:31.520,0:39:36.800
in finland

0:39:32.560,0:39:40.160
they write it with a v yes

0:39:36.800,0:39:43.119
and it's written with a v v m v i l e

0:39:40.160,0:39:44.079
right right but yeah we have a w same as

0:39:43.119,0:39:46.400
you guys and it's

0:39:44.079,0:39:49.760
pronounced pretty much the same okay all

0:39:46.400,0:39:49.760
right i'll take your word

0:39:52.640,0:39:56.160
uh i spoke to someone from space 48 this

0:39:55.760,0:40:00.480
week

0:39:56.160,0:40:02.560
uh also talking about uh and um

0:40:00.480,0:40:04.560
he had the same the the the same

0:40:02.560,0:40:08.880
struggle that you

0:40:04.560,0:40:10.960
how how how did you just say it alva

0:40:08.880,0:40:10.960
i

0:40:15.760,0:40:20.000
yeah exactly so um this guy from space

0:40:19.440,0:40:22.160
48

0:40:20.000,0:40:23.040
he was like yes so that's my association

0:40:22.160,0:40:26.160
so i thought

0:40:23.040,0:40:27.839
it was a bit like hoover which is the

0:40:26.160,0:40:31.280
vacuum cleaner yes it's like

0:40:27.839,0:40:36.930
yes image of hoover

0:40:31.280,0:40:45.359
your team sucking up all the dirt

0:40:36.930,0:40:48.160
[Laughter]

0:40:45.359,0:40:49.119
so how is um all the traction going i i

0:40:48.160,0:40:51.280
know you mentioned you were talking to

0:40:49.119,0:40:53.760
somebody from space 48 there's a lot of

0:40:51.280,0:40:54.960
buzz um are you getting some good

0:40:53.760,0:40:58.079
interest from uh

0:40:54.960,0:40:59.040
from people since your launch yeah i'm

0:40:58.079,0:41:01.920
just stalling

0:40:59.040,0:41:03.040
i'm just stalling because um not that

0:41:01.920,0:41:06.160
the product wouldn't be

0:41:03.040,0:41:09.760
ready enough but i got

0:41:06.160,0:41:13.119
so much interest that

0:41:09.760,0:41:14.560
i didn't dare to do this on a freelance

0:41:13.119,0:41:17.280
basis

0:41:14.560,0:41:18.960
which originally was the idea to do

0:41:17.280,0:41:20.400
until the end of the year at least to

0:41:18.960,0:41:22.640
keep it freelance

0:41:20.400,0:41:24.319
set a few licenses and then do a proper

0:41:22.640,0:41:26.480
launch somewhere in the beginning of

0:41:24.319,0:41:30.240
next year

0:41:26.480,0:41:33.599
and then my inbox one day later and

0:41:30.240,0:41:35.440
a week later told me

0:41:33.599,0:41:37.040
i better i better put up a proper

0:41:35.440,0:41:40.240
organization so

0:41:37.040,0:41:43.680
um that's what i'm doing um

0:41:40.240,0:41:45.520
i did i did get a few

0:41:43.680,0:41:46.839
people in because i wanted some quality

0:41:45.520,0:41:50.079
assurance

0:41:46.839,0:41:50.480
um and have some people put their hands

0:41:50.079,0:41:53.599
on it

0:41:50.480,0:41:55.760
and and see if they're

0:41:53.599,0:41:57.520
well my only the only thing that i knew

0:41:55.760,0:41:59.520
was that

0:41:57.520,0:42:01.680
my employer and my colleagues and the

0:41:59.520,0:42:05.119
guys at algantos

0:42:01.680,0:42:08.400
they were super enthusiastic um

0:42:05.119,0:42:11.520
and um i wasn't sure

0:42:08.400,0:42:12.960
i wasn't sure if i kind of got the

0:42:11.520,0:42:16.400
imposter syndrome like

0:42:12.960,0:42:17.200
is it i mean i think it's it's fantastic

0:42:16.400,0:42:18.800
and i haven't

0:42:17.200,0:42:20.640
so much fun to do everything and

0:42:18.800,0:42:23.520
everything seems super simple and

0:42:20.640,0:42:25.440
it's it's it's like my own dream like i

0:42:23.520,0:42:28.960
built my own dream template

0:42:25.440,0:42:33.040
and uh yeah probably it is for

0:42:28.960,0:42:35.839
all the well for most developers but um

0:42:33.040,0:42:36.880
what what if i sell 50 licenses before

0:42:35.839,0:42:39.470
the end of the year

0:42:36.880,0:42:40.960
and uh 40 of them hate it

0:42:39.470,0:42:43.920
[Music]

0:42:40.960,0:42:44.800
um yeah that's awesome that's always a

0:42:43.920,0:42:47.359
fear

0:42:44.800,0:42:48.240
i was going to say i think that if

0:42:47.359,0:42:50.400
you're

0:42:48.240,0:42:51.760
if you're enjoying the development

0:42:50.400,0:42:53.760
process

0:42:51.760,0:42:55.520
and you're also productive right those

0:42:53.760,0:42:56.720
two things combined right you could be

0:42:55.520,0:42:57.680
enjoying it but you're not getting

0:42:56.720,0:42:59.680
anything done

0:42:57.680,0:43:01.040
but if you're enjoying it and you're and

0:42:59.680,0:43:02.960
you're shipping

0:43:01.040,0:43:04.640
there's something powerful there because

0:43:02.960,0:43:06.319
like you said it's like

0:43:04.640,0:43:07.839
yeah of course as a developer you're

0:43:06.319,0:43:08.880
going to have struggles and challenges

0:43:07.839,0:43:10.880
but

0:43:08.880,0:43:12.079
when developers love their tools when

0:43:10.880,0:43:15.440
they're excited about

0:43:12.079,0:43:17.200
the tools it makes a huge difference

0:43:15.440,0:43:19.280
you know it makes a mess you have to you

0:43:17.200,0:43:21.920
have to struggle with the right things

0:43:19.280,0:43:23.680
yeah and they have to be solvable yeah

0:43:21.920,0:43:26.880
and there has to be an end to it

0:43:23.680,0:43:31.200
and the reason i burned out was because

0:43:26.880,0:43:34.240
there was no end to the issues

0:43:31.200,0:43:37.440
that that it would just pile up

0:43:34.240,0:43:40.480
and that was magenta 2.0 and there was

0:43:37.440,0:43:42.240
there was no decompression like i went

0:43:40.480,0:43:44.480
to sleep and i woke up in the morning

0:43:42.240,0:43:46.880
with issues that my customers had

0:43:44.480,0:43:48.480
and there was no solution there's just

0:43:46.880,0:43:50.640
constant debugging

0:43:48.480,0:43:53.440
and there's a lot of stress in it

0:43:50.640,0:43:54.880
there's a lot of energy going into it

0:43:53.440,0:43:56.960
and you just there's no moments where

0:43:54.880,0:43:59.599
you can actually relax

0:43:56.960,0:44:01.440
and that's luckily far behind and

0:43:59.599,0:44:02.560
magenta is in a much better place right

0:44:01.440,0:44:06.319
now

0:44:02.560,0:44:09.440
2.3 2.4 or really decent

0:44:06.319,0:44:13.520
we just have a crap from them um but but

0:44:09.440,0:44:17.200
the the the back end development um um

0:44:13.520,0:44:20.000
um it's it's a nice

0:44:17.200,0:44:20.560
it's it's nice it's good it's pretty

0:44:20.000,0:44:23.280
stable

0:44:20.560,0:44:25.200
of course there's still issues um but

0:44:23.280,0:44:25.760
you can see if you put a proper front

0:44:25.200,0:44:29.200
end

0:44:25.760,0:44:33.359
before it it's in front of it it's fast

0:44:29.200,0:44:35.599
and yeah it's finally

0:44:33.359,0:44:37.040
the feeling i got the feeling back that

0:44:35.599,0:44:40.400
i had 10 years ago

0:44:37.040,0:44:42.960
building just just bespoke products

0:44:40.400,0:44:43.680
just like getting started and build

0:44:42.960,0:44:46.319
stuff and just

0:44:43.680,0:44:48.000
make things up and and be productive

0:44:46.319,0:44:49.440
like you said and yeah of course you're

0:44:48.000,0:44:51.280
gonna have struggles because it's

0:44:49.440,0:44:53.920
magenta there's complexity

0:44:51.280,0:44:55.200
but that's what drives complexity drives

0:44:53.920,0:44:58.480
me especially if i can

0:44:55.200,0:45:02.480
reduce it to something simple

0:44:58.480,0:45:04.480
but yeah

0:45:02.480,0:45:06.400
there needs to be a solution to your

0:45:04.480,0:45:09.280
issues

0:45:06.400,0:45:11.119
yeah no that's that's cool that you're

0:45:09.280,0:45:13.599
that you're feeling motivated and

0:45:11.119,0:45:15.359
and enjoying the development um you

0:45:13.599,0:45:16.319
mentioned like your burnout and i

0:45:15.359,0:45:18.990
remember

0:45:16.319,0:45:20.079
hearing from you about that and um

0:45:18.990,0:45:23.359
[Music]

0:45:20.079,0:45:25.920
you had your own agency if i recall and

0:45:23.359,0:45:27.680
uh yeah that that was i remember

0:45:25.920,0:45:29.440
thinking about that from time to time

0:45:27.680,0:45:31.359
and like feeling like man

0:45:29.440,0:45:33.359
and and i remember you telling me it was

0:45:31.359,0:45:34.800
it was kind of magento too that sort of

0:45:33.359,0:45:37.599
did it because you had a couple

0:45:34.800,0:45:38.319
or maybe one big project and it's just

0:45:37.599,0:45:41.040
all these

0:45:38.319,0:45:42.319
bugs and stuff that just kind of killed

0:45:41.040,0:45:44.640
um

0:45:42.319,0:45:46.160
things for you and i'm i'm really glad

0:45:44.640,0:45:49.440
that you're doing so much better now

0:45:46.160,0:45:53.280
you know it's good to see yeah me too

0:45:49.440,0:45:56.400
it's um i don't know it has something of

0:45:53.280,0:45:56.400
a stockholm syndrome

0:45:57.119,0:46:00.960
sticking with magento yeah

0:45:59.470,0:46:04.319
[Music]

0:46:00.960,0:46:06.880
but that's that's less and less pain

0:46:04.319,0:46:07.359
and uh it's a more healthy relationship

0:46:06.880,0:46:10.720
now

0:46:07.359,0:46:13.119
um it's just um yeah

0:46:10.720,0:46:14.160
i i hope we can revive more of the

0:46:13.119,0:46:17.680
community

0:46:14.160,0:46:19.920
and one of the things that

0:46:17.680,0:46:21.520
really given me a kick right now is the

0:46:19.920,0:46:23.839
amount of

0:46:21.520,0:46:26.400
people that have contacted me that kind

0:46:23.839,0:46:29.680
of abandoned magento

0:46:26.400,0:46:30.560
publicly or non-public um and are

0:46:29.680,0:46:34.160
contacting me

0:46:30.560,0:46:36.160
like well it's looks like we might have

0:46:34.160,0:46:38.000
fun again doing magenta stuff and we're

0:46:36.160,0:46:40.560
super interested to try it again

0:46:38.000,0:46:43.200
because we miss the great old days of

0:46:40.560,0:46:46.720
doing magento and

0:46:43.200,0:46:51.200
from from what we've seen it looks like

0:46:46.720,0:46:52.880
it could be fun again and um

0:46:51.200,0:46:54.880
yeah part of part of what i'm trying to

0:46:52.880,0:46:57.040
do is build a community

0:46:54.880,0:46:58.640
within within the licensees and the

0:46:57.040,0:47:01.599
agencies that will join

0:46:58.640,0:47:02.079
um we have a handful of them people that

0:47:01.599,0:47:04.480
i

0:47:02.079,0:47:06.160
fully trusted with with having to look

0:47:04.480,0:47:07.920
at the code and trying it out so

0:47:06.160,0:47:09.599
there's a handful of people from

0:47:07.920,0:47:10.000
different agencies that are currently

0:47:09.599,0:47:13.680
checking

0:47:10.000,0:47:15.359
it and

0:47:13.680,0:47:18.560
yeah you can already see the interaction

0:47:15.359,0:47:20.559
and people being excited and

0:47:18.560,0:47:22.800
yeah that really gives me hope for the

0:47:20.559,0:47:24.559
future that we can build out a

0:47:22.800,0:47:26.480
proper community and people sharing

0:47:24.559,0:47:27.920
things like one of the downsides of my

0:47:26.480,0:47:30.000
system is that

0:47:27.920,0:47:31.280
we need to rewrite some stuff for third

0:47:30.000,0:47:33.119
party modules

0:47:31.280,0:47:34.960
so the presentation layer so the

0:47:33.119,0:47:37.359
template part of course

0:47:34.960,0:47:38.319
we won't have require js knockout and

0:47:37.359,0:47:41.920
jquery

0:47:38.319,0:47:45.680
and so whatever plugin you install

0:47:41.920,0:47:47.280
or module you install it will break

0:47:45.680,0:47:49.599
and you need to rewrite some of the

0:47:47.280,0:47:51.680
javascript but

0:47:49.599,0:47:54.000
there also lies the power that we can

0:47:51.680,0:47:58.000
actually still install plugins

0:47:54.000,0:47:58.000
and the whole headless thing

0:47:58.640,0:48:02.160
brings us into territory where

0:48:00.240,0:48:04.079
everything is bespoke

0:48:02.160,0:48:05.200
um there's currently just there's no

0:48:04.079,0:48:08.640
plugins just

0:48:05.200,0:48:11.520
slowly as some plug-in mechanisms

0:48:08.640,0:48:12.559
are being put in place but from what

0:48:11.520,0:48:15.280
i've seen

0:48:12.559,0:48:16.880
uh all the successful pwa integrations

0:48:15.280,0:48:19.839
are completely bespoke they rip

0:48:16.880,0:48:22.160
everything out and rebuild it and and

0:48:19.839,0:48:25.839
there's a lot of custom work involved

0:48:22.160,0:48:26.640
and with with keeping the current front

0:48:25.839,0:48:28.480
end we can keep

0:48:26.640,0:48:30.559
everything that we like and enjoy to

0:48:28.480,0:48:32.839
work with and the lovely springs

0:48:30.559,0:48:35.040
actually come back from a gentle one the

0:48:32.839,0:48:37.690
xml

0:48:35.040,0:48:39.200
working with blocks and stuff and

0:48:37.690,0:48:41.359
[Music]

0:48:39.200,0:48:42.720
yeah it's it's great it's a great

0:48:41.359,0:48:45.920
exercise to simplify

0:48:42.720,0:48:48.480
those layers i'm trying to really reduce

0:48:45.920,0:48:51.520
the complexity of the xml

0:48:48.480,0:48:55.200
no no 100 level deep

0:48:51.520,0:48:58.720
nested xml tags

0:48:55.200,0:49:00.400
and yeah keeping the great things

0:48:58.720,0:49:02.960
that we're enjoying that we know and

0:49:00.400,0:49:06.160
then use the best tools to get you on

0:49:02.960,0:49:07.839
your way as quick as possible

0:49:06.160,0:49:10.079
one of the responses from my colleagues

0:49:07.839,0:49:10.079
was

0:49:11.760,0:49:17.520
the fact that she could actually just

0:49:14.880,0:49:19.040
build stuff without constraints yeah and

0:49:17.520,0:49:22.800
the basis is solid

0:49:19.040,0:49:24.319
and with alpine uh it's so similar to

0:49:22.800,0:49:26.319
view so especially if you have

0:49:24.319,0:49:28.640
experience with few js

0:49:26.319,0:49:30.000
you're on your way within a day you're

0:49:28.640,0:49:32.960
building components

0:49:30.000,0:49:35.760
and we use graphql where it makes sense

0:49:32.960,0:49:38.640
graphical is super fast it can be cached

0:49:35.760,0:49:39.920
you can load stuff asynchronously it's

0:49:38.640,0:49:44.319
it's uh

0:49:39.920,0:49:46.800
it's ajax calls and steroids um

0:49:44.319,0:49:49.280
so that's that's taking the best part of

0:49:46.800,0:49:52.480
of the the new generation magento

0:49:49.280,0:49:53.520
um and at the same time we have

0:49:52.480,0:49:56.000
backwards

0:49:53.520,0:49:57.280
compatibility with the old mechanisms

0:49:56.000,0:49:59.200
like the section data

0:49:57.280,0:50:00.960
i know you know how familiar you are

0:49:59.200,0:50:04.240
with the

0:50:00.960,0:50:05.040
customer section data well let's just

0:50:04.240,0:50:08.480
work with it

0:50:05.040,0:50:11.520
we'll we'll know um we we

0:50:08.480,0:50:14.400
well in short magento keeps your your

0:50:11.520,0:50:16.800
customer specific data in local storage

0:50:14.400,0:50:18.559
it pulls data in with ajax and then

0:50:16.800,0:50:19.760
stores your customer information your

0:50:18.559,0:50:22.480
card data

0:50:19.760,0:50:23.920
um such kind of things it's stored in

0:50:22.480,0:50:26.480
local storage and only if it's

0:50:23.920,0:50:27.760
invalidated it pulls it pulls a newer

0:50:26.480,0:50:31.839
version from the server

0:50:27.760,0:50:34.640
oh okay so a lot of third-party modules

0:50:31.839,0:50:35.599
utilize that so for example a google tag

0:50:34.640,0:50:37.760
manager

0:50:35.599,0:50:39.520
it looks at that local storage data and

0:50:37.760,0:50:40.880
pulls in the customer name

0:50:39.520,0:50:43.680
and their items that they have in the

0:50:40.880,0:50:45.280
cart and we actually rebuild one of

0:50:43.680,0:50:47.839
those stack manager plugins

0:50:45.280,0:50:49.119
uh within two hours to make it

0:50:47.839,0:50:52.160
compatible with viva

0:50:49.119,0:50:53.920
yeah um so that's that's just taking the

0:50:52.160,0:50:54.640
logic that's already there from the old

0:50:53.920,0:50:58.079
front end

0:50:54.640,0:51:01.440
um and uh strip everything out that's

0:50:58.079,0:51:03.920
that's uh that comes from the library

0:51:01.440,0:51:04.960
so that's that's that's low dash and and

0:51:03.920,0:51:06.640
uh

0:51:04.960,0:51:08.240
what else different things to do

0:51:06.640,0:51:10.400
manipulations and on

0:51:08.240,0:51:12.800
objects and arrays and the modern

0:51:10.400,0:51:15.040
browsers can do all this stuff so

0:51:12.800,0:51:16.480
just throw it out yeah it's kind of

0:51:15.040,0:51:18.880
great like it's kind of crazy how you're

0:51:16.480,0:51:20.240
saying like so much of of

0:51:18.880,0:51:22.000
of what hap what's happening with

0:51:20.240,0:51:24.559
headless people are just throwing

0:51:22.000,0:51:26.240
out all a lot of the functionality that

0:51:24.559,0:51:27.680
they used to have they used to have 20

0:51:26.240,0:51:28.720
or 30 plugins and they're just going

0:51:27.680,0:51:31.040
like

0:51:28.720,0:51:33.040
let's just get rid of most of this see

0:51:31.040,0:51:36.079
what we can do without

0:51:33.040,0:51:38.240
and build something nice and clean and

0:51:36.079,0:51:39.440
fast and the ux is clean everything's

0:51:38.240,0:51:41.680
clean i mean

0:51:39.440,0:51:43.760
i'm sure if it was simple they would

0:51:41.680,0:51:45.359
have more features in pwa

0:51:43.760,0:51:48.480
but they're just they're not even at the

0:51:45.359,0:51:51.040
point yet that they have to base things

0:51:48.480,0:51:52.000
ready and adoptable and that things

0:51:51.040,0:51:55.280
won't

0:51:52.000,0:51:57.920
change and break in the next updates um

0:51:55.280,0:51:59.119
and uh yeah the foundation isn't quite i

0:51:57.920,0:52:03.599
feel like it's not quite

0:51:59.119,0:52:03.599
strong enough you know it's not quite

0:52:05.680,0:52:09.680
um one thing that i really appreciate

0:52:08.480,0:52:11.680
from the magento and

0:52:09.680,0:52:14.319
adobe side is that they haven't shipped

0:52:11.680,0:52:17.359
it yet while it's not ready

0:52:14.319,0:52:18.000
i mean the thing that can get me most

0:52:17.359,0:52:21.680
upset

0:52:18.000,0:52:24.240
about magento is the release of 2.0

0:52:21.680,0:52:24.800
it that basically well we didn't dive

0:52:24.240,0:52:28.079
into that

0:52:24.800,0:52:29.920
and let's leave it also but um

0:52:28.079,0:52:31.200
my burnout had everything to do with

0:52:29.920,0:52:33.119
magenta 2.0

0:52:31.200,0:52:34.559
there was a lot of things around that

0:52:33.119,0:52:37.680
that were

0:52:34.559,0:52:40.880
wrong timing for me but magenta too was

0:52:37.680,0:52:44.640
uh at the foundation of my my

0:52:40.880,0:52:46.960
my burnout um and i don't know

0:52:44.640,0:52:48.559
who decided at magento that they should

0:52:46.960,0:52:51.760
release 2.0

0:52:48.559,0:52:52.720
um but it wasn't done it wasn't ready

0:52:51.760,0:52:54.480
and they knew it

0:52:52.720,0:52:56.480
and they just thought well we'll figure

0:52:54.480,0:52:57.280
it out we'll push it and the community

0:52:56.480,0:53:00.160
will help us

0:52:57.280,0:53:01.599
get the box out and we need to ship it

0:53:00.160,0:53:02.480
and we need to start make money with

0:53:01.599,0:53:05.440
this because

0:53:02.480,0:53:06.720
we spent too much time developing this

0:53:05.440,0:53:09.760
so

0:53:06.720,0:53:10.240
the positive thing i want to say about

0:53:09.760,0:53:12.160
this

0:53:10.240,0:53:14.079
is that they haven't done this with pwa

0:53:12.160,0:53:16.960
yet and that i really

0:53:14.079,0:53:18.160
appreciate um imagine they would have

0:53:16.960,0:53:21.839
shipped bwa

0:53:18.160,0:53:24.640
a year ago while it wasn't ready

0:53:21.839,0:53:26.319
um imagine they would have already

0:53:24.640,0:53:28.880
started deprecating luma

0:53:26.319,0:53:30.000
yeah the old front then and already push

0:53:28.880,0:53:31.920
pwa

0:53:30.000,0:53:33.440
it's going to be very interesting to see

0:53:31.920,0:53:35.599
when that's going to happen

0:53:33.440,0:53:37.119
um but for me that's going to be a

0:53:35.599,0:53:40.480
really hard split

0:53:37.119,0:53:41.200
one day when they decide to pull the

0:53:40.480,0:53:44.960
plug

0:53:41.200,0:53:46.319
on the current front end

0:53:44.960,0:53:48.640
that's going to move things in two

0:53:46.319,0:53:50.720
directions

0:53:48.640,0:53:52.880
and i don't think that can happen

0:53:50.720,0:53:55.520
anytime soon because

0:53:52.880,0:53:56.960
people are just not ready to adopt pwa

0:53:55.520,0:53:59.760
and i wonder if that's

0:53:56.960,0:53:59.760
ever going to be

0:54:00.079,0:54:08.319
the best solution and and

0:54:04.160,0:54:11.280
well something that fits uh for for

0:54:08.319,0:54:11.280
the

0:54:12.079,0:54:18.960
yeah and if they would do this

0:54:15.119,0:54:18.960
it would mean that they really

0:54:19.040,0:54:25.520
uh definitely say

0:54:22.160,0:54:28.720
mid market that's not our

0:54:25.520,0:54:32.000
that's not our gig um

0:54:28.720,0:54:35.440
we're enterprise um

0:54:32.000,0:54:40.480
we want you to build bespoke

0:54:35.440,0:54:40.480
and custom builds magento shops

0:54:40.640,0:54:44.559
we think you should be technically able

0:54:43.280,0:54:46.480
to

0:54:44.559,0:54:48.799
just build it to react components that

0:54:46.480,0:54:50.559
we have it will get better of course

0:54:48.799,0:54:53.839
there will be teams with predefined

0:54:50.559,0:54:53.839
components from react but

0:54:53.920,0:54:58.240
i don't know it will never become as

0:54:56.160,0:55:01.280
simple as just

0:54:58.240,0:55:04.160
building php html sites

0:55:01.280,0:55:05.040
and you'll never have less javascript

0:55:04.160,0:55:08.160
than

0:55:05.040,0:55:10.640
with a php html site yeah

0:55:08.160,0:55:11.680
yeah and um all javascript will never i

0:55:10.640,0:55:13.520
mean

0:55:11.680,0:55:15.280
i'm not against more in javascript i

0:55:13.520,0:55:16.319
love it my whole team is about more than

0:55:15.280,0:55:19.440
javascript

0:55:16.319,0:55:21.680
but um as least as possible

0:55:19.440,0:55:23.359
always the simplest solution and i want

0:55:21.680,0:55:25.440
people to be able to read my code and

0:55:23.359,0:55:27.359
understand it and not dig into

0:55:25.440,0:55:28.640
20 different files trying to understand

0:55:27.359,0:55:30.559
where someone came from

0:55:28.640,0:55:31.920
yeah so what are things i was curious

0:55:30.559,0:55:33.680
about with um

0:55:31.920,0:55:35.280
like alpine so i'm more familiar with

0:55:33.680,0:55:37.440
vue and

0:55:35.280,0:55:39.200
um everybody seems to love alpine my

0:55:37.440,0:55:40.880
understanding is i saw a little bit of

0:55:39.200,0:55:42.799
your code like it's just

0:55:40.880,0:55:44.960
a simpler version of you you don't have

0:55:42.799,0:55:46.960
to go and create components in order to

0:55:44.960,0:55:49.680
and like can't do based simple logic and

0:55:46.960,0:55:51.520
stuff like that inside of a template

0:55:49.680,0:55:53.760
um and i saw like one of your posts on

0:55:51.520,0:55:55.280
like how to build a paginated slider and

0:55:53.760,0:55:57.680
things like that and like

0:55:55.280,0:55:59.680
as you like for example in my in my code

0:55:57.680,0:56:01.599
base i have like a multi-select

0:55:59.680,0:56:04.000
like a view multi-select widget that has

0:56:01.599,0:56:06.880
all sorts of cool stuff that it does

0:56:04.000,0:56:08.400
but as you like this so there so that

0:56:06.880,0:56:11.040
tension between

0:56:08.400,0:56:12.640
the simple use case let's do something

0:56:11.040,0:56:13.520
simple let's not ship a lot of code

0:56:12.640,0:56:17.200
versus

0:56:13.520,0:56:19.359
as things mature and if you like like

0:56:17.200,0:56:21.119
in the view ecosystem you have all these

0:56:19.359,0:56:22.400
like packages and components i'm sure

0:56:21.119,0:56:23.760
it's similar to react

0:56:22.400,0:56:26.160
there's all these components you want to

0:56:23.760,0:56:27.920
multi-select you want a table grid

0:56:26.160,0:56:30.079
whatever you want right they have all

0:56:27.920,0:56:34.000
sorts of things you can use

0:56:30.079,0:56:36.240
um how does that work with with alpine

0:56:34.000,0:56:38.880
and like aren't you going to want access

0:56:36.240,0:56:40.960
to an ecosystem with more of these rich

0:56:38.880,0:56:42.079
existing components that you can plug in

0:56:40.960,0:56:45.680
for

0:56:42.079,0:56:47.680
for different things

0:56:45.680,0:56:49.839
yeah so i want to keep things simple and

0:56:47.680,0:56:53.359
small in the basis

0:56:49.839,0:56:55.680
um that doesn't mean that you're not

0:56:53.359,0:56:56.799
able to put complex things in there you

0:56:55.680,0:56:59.680
just pull it in as

0:56:56.799,0:57:01.839
additional secondary thing yeah yeah so

0:56:59.680,0:57:04.240
i imagined when i got started

0:57:01.839,0:57:05.119
alpine is going to replace things that i

0:57:04.240,0:57:08.319
normally would do

0:57:05.119,0:57:10.559
with jquery or i used to do with jquery

0:57:08.319,0:57:11.760
simple presentation logic toggles yeah

0:57:10.559,0:57:14.799
just ui

0:57:11.760,0:57:16.480
ui elements and i was sure that for

0:57:14.799,0:57:18.400
example the mini cards

0:57:16.480,0:57:20.000
i would have to build with react and

0:57:18.400,0:57:22.720
maybe the product pitch

0:57:20.000,0:57:24.079
um we did similar things at intergenet

0:57:22.720,0:57:25.839
at some builds because the current

0:57:24.079,0:57:27.359
front-end just was such a pain to work

0:57:25.839,0:57:28.559
with we just started to build react

0:57:27.359,0:57:30.880
components

0:57:28.559,0:57:32.160
that were kind of hybrid so if we would

0:57:30.880,0:57:35.440
move to pwa

0:57:32.160,0:57:36.960
we'd already have a large library of

0:57:35.440,0:57:38.559
checkout and product page and all these

0:57:36.960,0:57:42.160
things that we could reuse

0:57:38.559,0:57:45.920
um so i i have two years of

0:57:42.160,0:57:49.359
experience with building react apps um

0:57:45.920,0:57:51.280
and um we open source

0:57:49.359,0:57:53.119
the react checkout that we're building

0:57:51.280,0:57:54.240
which is iteration on something that i

0:57:53.119,0:57:57.839
did before

0:57:54.240,0:58:02.160
and it's much more versatile it's um

0:57:57.839,0:58:02.160
super um um

0:58:02.319,0:58:07.920
flexible like you can go anywhere with

0:58:05.359,0:58:08.880
with the structure of elements and i put

0:58:07.920,0:58:12.240
all the logic

0:58:08.880,0:58:13.599
up in in context so um there's kind of

0:58:12.240,0:58:16.400
like a separate brain

0:58:13.599,0:58:17.359
to the checkout and then we have dumb ui

0:58:16.400,0:58:20.079
elements

0:58:17.359,0:58:20.559
simple components that just display

0:58:20.079,0:58:23.359
stuff

0:58:20.559,0:58:24.240
and call functions from this brain the

0:58:23.359,0:58:26.319
context

0:58:24.240,0:58:28.000
and and that works really nicely it's

0:58:26.319,0:58:30.720
not fully featured yet uh

0:58:28.000,0:58:32.720
i i did one implementation for b2b

0:58:30.720,0:58:35.440
customer and i didn't need

0:58:32.720,0:58:36.000
shipping and payment so it was quite

0:58:35.440,0:58:37.680
simple just

0:58:36.000,0:58:39.280
billing and some custom graphql

0:58:37.680,0:58:40.960
endpoints

0:58:39.280,0:58:43.280
and i actually started building that

0:58:40.960,0:58:46.640
checkout uh this january

0:58:43.280,0:58:48.160
so almost a year ago uh i wanted to open

0:58:46.640,0:58:52.079
source it and then

0:58:48.160,0:58:56.000
covet happened and uh um

0:58:52.079,0:58:59.200
it was postponed for a while and then

0:58:56.000,0:59:01.119
in june yeah they asked me to build a

0:58:59.200,0:59:02.960
checkout for this particular customer

0:59:01.119,0:59:04.880
and then i saw the designs it's like oh

0:59:02.960,0:59:08.000
man i have to use my

0:59:04.880,0:59:09.839
my side project for this so i just i got

0:59:08.000,0:59:11.200
asked for the checkout and what they got

0:59:09.839,0:59:14.880
was a new front end

0:59:11.200,0:59:18.240
um but yeah to get back on point

0:59:14.880,0:59:20.400
um you can you can build

0:59:18.240,0:59:21.920
reacts or view components and put them

0:59:20.400,0:59:25.200
into the page

0:59:21.920,0:59:27.200
and um you can use

0:59:25.200,0:59:28.319
all these libraries and even code that

0:59:27.200,0:59:30.160
you've used i

0:59:28.319,0:59:32.319
imagine if you're an agency that does

0:59:30.160,0:59:34.400
pwa and you do magento

0:59:32.319,0:59:36.559
and you're knowledgeable about magento

0:59:34.400,0:59:38.960
you're gonna love having the option

0:59:36.559,0:59:40.000
to work with huva because you have the

0:59:38.960,0:59:41.680
same back ends

0:59:40.000,0:59:43.680
and the same developers working on the

0:59:41.680,0:59:45.280
same backend and the front end is just

0:59:43.680,0:59:46.640
something simple that you can use to

0:59:45.280,0:59:50.960
build a web shop in a month

0:59:46.640,0:59:53.760
instead of six or twelve um

0:59:50.960,0:59:54.480
and then you can serve mid market

0:59:53.760,0:59:56.640
clients

0:59:54.480,0:59:58.799
whatever ten thousand dollars luxury

0:59:56.640,1:00:02.400
websites

0:59:58.799,1:00:05.839
yeah i i mean um

1:00:02.400,1:00:06.400
sure for for for those that just came

1:00:05.839,1:00:10.079
out it's

1:00:06.400,1:00:11.359
out of ice out of college for those that

1:00:10.079,1:00:13.599
are just getting started

1:00:11.359,1:00:14.640
they're young they're enthusiastic they

1:00:13.599,1:00:17.119
want to learn

1:00:14.640,1:00:17.920
they want to fall and get up again they

1:00:17.119,1:00:20.000
can build

1:00:17.920,1:00:21.760
a magenta webshop with huffa for ten

1:00:20.000,1:00:22.640
thousand euros and they'll be earning

1:00:21.760,1:00:25.839
good money with it

1:00:22.640,1:00:26.640
it's how we got started and um i look

1:00:25.839,1:00:29.119
forward to

1:00:26.640,1:00:30.880
to hopefully see that happen again

1:00:29.119,1:00:31.599
because currently the entry level of

1:00:30.880,1:00:35.040
magento

1:00:31.599,1:00:37.280
is already somewhere up in enterprise

1:00:35.040,1:00:39.040
yeah so you already need to have agency

1:00:37.280,1:00:41.520
with with people that already know

1:00:39.040,1:00:44.240
magento that can train

1:00:41.520,1:00:45.359
juniors and what you had to start with

1:00:44.240,1:00:47.599
with max

1:00:45.359,1:00:48.400
from from something digital you need a

1:00:47.599,1:00:52.079
whole program

1:00:48.400,1:00:54.720
to actually um school you you need to

1:00:52.079,1:00:55.440
you need to have the the money and the

1:00:54.720,1:00:58.799
time to

1:00:55.440,1:01:00.880
actually uh train juniors

1:00:58.799,1:01:02.480
and um it's interesting that's how we

1:01:00.880,1:01:04.559
got started with magento one

1:01:02.480,1:01:05.680
yeah man it's so funny because in some

1:01:04.559,1:01:08.160
ways i feel like

1:01:05.680,1:01:10.880
you're kee it's like you're keeping the

1:01:08.160,1:01:12.960
spirit of magento alive

1:01:10.880,1:01:14.799
you know what i mean it's like magento

1:01:12.960,1:01:16.240
is this corporate thing now

1:01:14.799,1:01:17.520
and it's the money more and more it's

1:01:16.240,1:01:19.599
like you said that's the bigger and

1:01:17.520,1:01:22.880
bigger projects it's more enterprisey

1:01:19.599,1:01:24.480
adobe and it's like you're trying to

1:01:22.880,1:01:26.960
kind of almost revive

1:01:24.480,1:01:28.400
like that feeling that you had building

1:01:26.960,1:01:30.319
things when they were simpler when

1:01:28.400,1:01:33.359
people could get in easier

1:01:30.319,1:01:35.440
um and uh

1:01:33.359,1:01:37.200
it makes me think of that tweet i posted

1:01:35.440,1:01:38.000
about like entrepreneurship too a little

1:01:37.200,1:01:41.119
bit in america

1:01:38.000,1:01:43.200
versus europe right because like

1:01:41.119,1:01:44.559
it's it's it's like in a way like you're

1:01:43.200,1:01:48.960
keeping this that

1:01:44.559,1:01:52.160
spirit of magento alive and i wonder

1:01:48.960,1:01:56.400
if it it's maybe more so

1:01:52.160,1:01:58.799
alive in in europe in some ways because

1:01:56.400,1:02:00.640
there tends to be less of the of the uh

1:01:58.799,1:02:01.599
commercial edition of magento it's more

1:02:00.640,1:02:04.559
the open sour

1:02:01.599,1:02:06.559
open source version um and so it's

1:02:04.559,1:02:07.680
almost like the price points stay a bit

1:02:06.559,1:02:10.400
lower

1:02:07.680,1:02:13.440
um and i don't know it's just it's

1:02:10.400,1:02:16.559
making me think about that you know

1:02:13.440,1:02:17.599
yeah i don't know too much about the the

1:02:16.559,1:02:20.559
u.s market

1:02:17.599,1:02:22.079
or how what what range agencies are

1:02:20.559,1:02:24.480
operating in there but

1:02:22.079,1:02:26.160
i literally built my first magenta site

1:02:24.480,1:02:29.119
for a thousand euros

1:02:26.160,1:02:30.400
yeah i had sold a team and i got on my

1:02:29.119,1:02:32.640
way and

1:02:30.400,1:02:34.720
i was still student so i didn't need the

1:02:32.640,1:02:36.480
money really

1:02:34.720,1:02:38.799
i was just in it for the experience and

1:02:36.480,1:02:40.480
to learn and it got me up to the point

1:02:38.799,1:02:42.160
where i had an agency

1:02:40.480,1:02:44.559
where we were doing really well and

1:02:42.160,1:02:47.680
magento 1 was a golden era for us

1:02:44.559,1:02:50.240
we didn't build expensive web shops

1:02:47.680,1:02:51.280
but we had enough customers enough

1:02:50.240,1:02:53.760
builds

1:02:51.280,1:02:54.880
and mostly we're having we were having a

1:02:53.760,1:02:58.960
lot of fun

1:02:54.880,1:03:02.799
and that's that's the best driver um

1:02:58.960,1:03:04.720
and um i think i think that's still

1:03:02.799,1:03:09.440
possible with magento

1:03:04.720,1:03:12.160
um up until the point where they

1:03:09.440,1:03:12.640
why are they going to push pwa so hard

1:03:12.160,1:03:17.119
that

1:03:12.640,1:03:18.050
that we have no other choice than to

1:03:17.119,1:03:21.760
fork it

1:03:18.050,1:03:23.839
[Laughter]

1:03:21.760,1:03:25.599
i mean it's it's possible that's the

1:03:23.839,1:03:27.359
thing about an open source community is

1:03:25.599,1:03:28.960
like you can take things the direction

1:03:27.359,1:03:32.000
you want to take them i mean

1:03:28.960,1:03:33.520
you ran into all these issues and

1:03:32.000,1:03:34.960
you know some people can just complain

1:03:33.520,1:03:36.319
but you did something about it like you

1:03:34.960,1:03:39.839
built something

1:03:36.319,1:03:42.960
that people can use we spent two years

1:03:39.839,1:03:45.119
just thinking what what what should we

1:03:42.960,1:03:47.119
do because

1:03:45.119,1:03:48.160
it's maybe hard to understand but not

1:03:47.119,1:03:51.200
every agency

1:03:48.160,1:03:52.240
wants enterprise not every agency wants

1:03:51.200,1:03:55.119
to deal

1:03:52.240,1:03:58.720
with merchants that have a whole c level

1:03:55.119,1:04:01.280
and a ceo and a cmo that have an opinion

1:03:58.720,1:04:04.640
because they need to have an opinion

1:04:01.280,1:04:04.640
and they need to have this

1:04:05.200,1:04:09.440
all this google tech manager stuff and

1:04:07.440,1:04:12.640
the hundred tracking scripts and

1:04:09.440,1:04:14.480
and they push their opinions so hard

1:04:12.640,1:04:16.720
just because

1:04:14.480,1:04:18.480
they have the authority to do so and

1:04:16.720,1:04:19.359
they don't really listen to you when you

1:04:18.480,1:04:21.680
give the best of

1:04:19.359,1:04:22.799
uh the best advice and you have solid

1:04:21.680,1:04:24.799
arguments and

1:04:22.799,1:04:26.319
they push you to build something that

1:04:24.799,1:04:28.160
fills and then they come back and they

1:04:26.319,1:04:28.880
say okay so maybe do the other thing

1:04:28.160,1:04:31.920
then

1:04:28.880,1:04:33.920
and that's so draining as a developer

1:04:31.920,1:04:35.280
if you're doing something that you're

1:04:33.920,1:04:38.799
not behind

1:04:35.280,1:04:42.799
if you're um and

1:04:38.799,1:04:45.760
what what i enjoy most is when i sit

1:04:42.799,1:04:46.720
across someone at the table that owns

1:04:45.760,1:04:48.880
the company

1:04:46.720,1:04:50.799
yeah that invested its life into it

1:04:48.880,1:04:54.000
who's passionate about the company

1:04:50.799,1:04:56.400
who who wants to grow who wants to

1:04:54.000,1:04:57.920
learn um and you have a whole different

1:04:56.400,1:05:01.119
experience with such a merchant

1:04:57.920,1:05:02.480
yeah and they

1:05:01.119,1:05:04.640
they also have budgets you have

1:05:02.480,1:05:07.520
multi-million companies where the owner

1:05:04.640,1:05:08.480
is is is still actually running the

1:05:07.520,1:05:12.160
business

1:05:08.480,1:05:14.799
and that's a lot more fun than than uh

1:05:12.160,1:05:16.400
hundreds of million company where

1:05:14.799,1:05:20.319
everything is formalized

1:05:16.400,1:05:23.680
and yeah we just like the

1:05:20.319,1:05:26.799
the personal and the the human side of

1:05:23.680,1:05:30.480
of of working

1:05:26.799,1:05:31.200
and um i love that i i'm similar in the

1:05:30.480,1:05:34.000
sense that

1:05:31.200,1:05:35.599
i i like working with um like the

1:05:34.000,1:05:36.079
customers that work out the best tend to

1:05:35.599,1:05:38.319
be

1:05:36.079,1:05:39.440
generally agencies that are where i'm

1:05:38.319,1:05:41.119
dealing with the owner

1:05:39.440,1:05:43.119
something like that sometimes merchants

1:05:41.119,1:05:46.160
too but um

1:05:43.119,1:05:47.039
when you know it's this big company and

1:05:46.160,1:05:48.720
like it's like

1:05:47.039,1:05:50.079
for me it's if they have an hr

1:05:48.720,1:05:53.119
department like

1:05:50.079,1:05:56.400
if my contact is the hr person

1:05:53.119,1:05:59.039
like nothing ever

1:05:56.400,1:06:00.720
goes anywhere i don't know why that is

1:05:59.039,1:06:04.240
yeah

1:06:00.720,1:06:08.160
but yeah it's uh i love small businesses

1:06:04.240,1:06:10.799
you know yeah and they can i mean

1:06:08.160,1:06:12.240
of course the bakery around the corner

1:06:10.799,1:06:15.680
all this

1:06:12.240,1:06:19.119
just um clothing

1:06:15.680,1:06:20.799
well some shop around the corner

1:06:19.119,1:06:23.039
shouldn't be a magento because they

1:06:20.799,1:06:23.920
can't they can't pay the the cost of

1:06:23.039,1:06:27.119
ownership the

1:06:23.920,1:06:29.839
the updates and the security stuff

1:06:27.119,1:06:33.440
um or the hosting and they're best off

1:06:29.839,1:06:35.359
from the sas like i don't care shopify

1:06:33.440,1:06:36.960
um that's a perfect fit and we have a

1:06:35.359,1:06:37.599
few of those in the netherlands where

1:06:36.960,1:06:41.920
you

1:06:37.599,1:06:43.839
get your your pos integrated and you pay

1:06:41.920,1:06:45.680
10 euros a month and you have a web shop

1:06:43.839,1:06:46.000
and you put your 20 products on there

1:06:45.680,1:06:49.119
and you

1:06:46.000,1:06:52.160
sell maybe one product in a week

1:06:49.119,1:06:55.359
that's all fine we used to

1:06:52.160,1:06:56.400
i sold magenta to one of one or two of

1:06:55.359,1:06:59.440
those merchants

1:06:56.400,1:07:01.599
all the way in the beginning and

1:06:59.440,1:07:03.039
in the end we mostly hurt ourselves

1:07:01.599,1:07:04.240
because they couldn't pay for our

1:07:03.039,1:07:07.599
services

1:07:04.240,1:07:08.880
and we were so humane to still fix their

1:07:07.599,1:07:11.280
issues

1:07:08.880,1:07:12.319
issues and not being able to properly

1:07:11.280,1:07:15.280
charge them

1:07:12.319,1:07:16.480
um and that's that's really a dumb deal

1:07:15.280,1:07:20.799
with magenta too

1:07:16.480,1:07:22.799
uh it's unrealistic but um

1:07:20.799,1:07:24.319
yeah it brings you back to what's mid

1:07:22.799,1:07:28.240
market but i think

1:07:24.319,1:07:30.160
um 10k web shop well

1:07:28.240,1:07:32.960
maybe if there's not too many

1:07:30.160,1:07:36.559
requirements i built a hifa website

1:07:32.960,1:07:38.400
if you go to hiva.io i build it the day

1:07:36.559,1:07:40.240
before the conference

1:07:38.400,1:07:42.640
and of course this there's two products

1:07:40.240,1:07:46.400
in it and the checkout is simple

1:07:42.640,1:07:48.799
there's no payment method but um

1:07:46.400,1:07:50.960
i really did some customizations there

1:07:48.799,1:07:54.240
and

1:07:50.960,1:07:57.359
integrated mailchimp and

1:07:54.240,1:07:59.760
google tag manager and it's not just

1:07:57.359,1:08:01.760
it didn't just install it and then leave

1:07:59.760,1:08:04.960
it there and also the demo site

1:08:01.760,1:08:08.839
um really came together last minute um

1:08:04.960,1:08:10.319
because all we had up till a week before

1:08:08.839,1:08:13.920
reacticon was

1:08:10.319,1:08:16.640
projects that we were implementing and

1:08:13.920,1:08:18.719
little by little we we would put stuff

1:08:16.640,1:08:20.880
back into the main product

1:08:18.719,1:08:22.719
but the week before reactacon i really

1:08:20.880,1:08:25.759
had to push and get everything in

1:08:22.719,1:08:28.239
and um just just getting a demo up there

1:08:25.759,1:08:29.759
um well and this is the thing with i

1:08:28.239,1:08:32.159
mean and this was my whole

1:08:29.759,1:08:32.960
this was my whole point with that whole

1:08:32.159,1:08:36.000
10 000

1:08:32.960,1:08:38.319
thing the whole time is that like yes

1:08:36.000,1:08:40.000
there is this expectation that prices

1:08:38.319,1:08:42.560
have gone up and up and up and up and

1:08:40.000,1:08:44.159
and especially us-based solution

1:08:42.560,1:08:45.279
partners they don't want to hear about a

1:08:44.159,1:08:48.880
budget that's less than

1:08:45.279,1:08:50.880
50 7 500 000 right that's just

1:08:48.880,1:08:52.400
it doesn't make sense that's just true

1:08:50.880,1:08:55.120
that's the expectation

1:08:52.400,1:08:56.560
but what i'm looking at from sort of

1:08:55.120,1:08:58.319
first principles

1:08:56.560,1:08:59.600
is like and it goes back to this thing

1:08:58.319,1:09:01.839
with developers

1:08:59.600,1:09:03.199
you know the developer has a tool set

1:09:01.839,1:09:05.520
that they're familiar with that they

1:09:03.199,1:09:07.759
know well that they're efficient in

1:09:05.520,1:09:09.920
then why could why can't they do

1:09:07.759,1:09:10.640
something quickly if the requirements

1:09:09.920,1:09:12.719
are

1:09:10.640,1:09:14.799
not too bad the client of course

1:09:12.719,1:09:17.040
assuming the client knows what they want

1:09:14.799,1:09:18.640
the requirements aren't too crazy why

1:09:17.040,1:09:22.319
not why not and

1:09:18.640,1:09:25.279
in some ways like you're it's that same

1:09:22.319,1:09:27.199
um it's the same thrust of like let's

1:09:25.279,1:09:29.040
simplify like let's not

1:09:27.199,1:09:30.319
work with the tool set that we're just

1:09:29.040,1:09:34.560
fighting against

1:09:30.319,1:09:37.199
constantly just because that's how it is

1:09:34.560,1:09:38.960
yeah well in defense of those agencies

1:09:37.199,1:09:43.359
um

1:09:38.960,1:09:45.600
in the end a 10k merchant

1:09:43.359,1:09:46.839
isn't ideal because usually that's their

1:09:45.600,1:09:49.679
budget

1:09:46.839,1:09:53.199
and um

1:09:49.679,1:09:57.760
but then one month after going live

1:09:53.199,1:09:57.760
that's a security patch yeah i think

1:09:58.000,1:10:02.239
and all of a sudden all the categories

1:10:01.120,1:10:04.560
are empty because

1:10:02.239,1:10:06.560
some indexer doesn't run anymore and his

1:10:04.560,1:10:08.480
elasticsearch broke or something happens

1:10:06.560,1:10:12.400
with varnish or

1:10:08.480,1:10:15.199
i mean it's a complicated stack and

1:10:12.400,1:10:16.800
we learned to do magento for 10 years

1:10:15.199,1:10:19.199
and it takes us one hour to fix

1:10:16.800,1:10:20.719
something but that doesn't mean

1:10:19.199,1:10:22.800
you have to take into account that

1:10:20.719,1:10:26.000
there's well a certain

1:10:22.800,1:10:30.159
yeah it's an expense

1:10:26.000,1:10:33.440
yeah um

1:10:30.159,1:10:36.159
i think a 10k merchant is not

1:10:33.440,1:10:38.400
sustainable in the long run

1:10:36.159,1:10:40.320
unless you're a student or a beginning

1:10:38.400,1:10:42.000
agency that's getting started and

1:10:40.320,1:10:43.520
doesn't have a lot of cost and you're

1:10:42.000,1:10:45.520
learning and growing

1:10:43.520,1:10:47.679
but that's not that shouldn't be where

1:10:45.520,1:10:51.040
you're where you finish off

1:10:47.679,1:10:53.520
right um right but it would be

1:10:51.040,1:10:56.480
the perfect basis to get started again

1:10:53.520,1:10:59.199
right and that's something that you saw

1:10:56.480,1:11:00.159
at least in europe you saw this a lot

1:10:59.199,1:11:01.920
ten years ago

1:11:00.159,1:11:03.199
eight years ago six years ago and then

1:11:01.920,1:11:05.040
it stopped

1:11:03.199,1:11:06.640
there's just the level of entry since

1:11:05.040,1:11:08.239
magento 2.0

1:11:06.640,1:11:10.000
got higher and higher and higher and a

1:11:08.239,1:11:11.520
lot of people just gave up because there

1:11:10.000,1:11:14.880
were too many bucks

1:11:11.520,1:11:15.840
and you couldn't build them one of my

1:11:14.880,1:11:18.400
issues was that

1:11:15.840,1:11:19.600
i worked at fixed prices and well some

1:11:18.400,1:11:23.199
things were buildable but

1:11:19.600,1:11:26.159
i couldn't build a customer for

1:11:23.199,1:11:26.800
paypal being so broken that their stock

1:11:26.159,1:11:30.000
status

1:11:26.800,1:11:31.280
changed every day there was such a core

1:11:30.000,1:11:32.640
box in paypal

1:11:31.280,1:11:36.960
that if someone tried to buy a

1:11:32.640,1:11:36.960
configurable product and um

1:11:37.520,1:11:41.040
there was a credit check you would do a

1:11:39.360,1:11:41.920
credit check with paypal for a hundred

1:11:41.040,1:11:43.840
dollars

1:11:41.920,1:11:45.440
and then after the credit check you

1:11:43.840,1:11:47.120
would go to the confirmation screen and

1:11:45.440,1:11:49.920
you would add shipping

1:11:47.120,1:11:52.320
and if shipping would add 20 to your

1:11:49.920,1:11:52.320
order

1:11:52.400,1:11:55.760
your credit card was validated for a

1:11:54.159,1:11:58.000
hundred dollars

1:11:55.760,1:11:59.120
which became 120 and you would hit a

1:11:58.000,1:12:01.440
credit limit

1:11:59.120,1:12:03.040
so paypal would throw an error somewhere

1:12:01.440,1:12:04.800
silently in the back end

1:12:03.040,1:12:07.040
would throw the customer back into the

1:12:04.800,1:12:08.960
checkout payment field

1:12:07.040,1:12:10.540
without any message you wouldn't find it

1:12:08.960,1:12:12.320
in the locks

1:12:10.540,1:12:15.679
[Music]

1:12:12.320,1:12:18.640
and then magento would say

1:12:15.679,1:12:21.840
ah this is a filled order let me put

1:12:18.640,1:12:24.000
that product back in stock

1:12:21.840,1:12:26.000
while that product hadn't even been

1:12:24.000,1:12:28.960
deducted yet so there was

1:12:26.000,1:12:30.320
if it had a stock of 10 it didn't it

1:12:28.960,1:12:33.600
never went to nine

1:12:30.320,1:12:35.600
but it went to 11 or even 12 yeah when a

1:12:33.600,1:12:37.440
customer came back with a field payment

1:12:35.600,1:12:39.280
and the customer would think well i have

1:12:37.440,1:12:40.800
enough credit let me try again

1:12:39.280,1:12:42.719
and try again and try again and try

1:12:40.800,1:12:43.440
again and then the merchant would call

1:12:42.719,1:12:45.679
me

1:12:43.440,1:12:48.080
that for some products the stock went up

1:12:45.679,1:12:50.400
with 20 units

1:12:48.080,1:12:51.120
and they didn't sell anything and that

1:12:50.400,1:12:54.320
took me

1:12:51.120,1:12:56.159
like among three or four other bucks

1:12:54.320,1:12:57.600
in checkout and this was in a time that

1:12:56.159,1:13:00.640
they were ebay owned right

1:12:57.600,1:13:03.760
so paypal and magento they were

1:13:00.640,1:13:04.719
they that was basically the same it was

1:13:03.760,1:13:06.719
the same company

1:13:04.719,1:13:08.400
yeah and it was the worst integration of

1:13:06.719,1:13:09.920
payment that you that you could possibly

1:13:08.400,1:13:13.679
see there were so many bucks

1:13:09.920,1:13:16.000
yeah um and it took me

1:13:13.679,1:13:17.199
six weeks where the merchant was calling

1:13:16.000,1:13:20.080
me every day

1:13:17.199,1:13:20.560
what to say is on the stock issue i'm

1:13:20.080,1:13:22.480
where

1:13:20.560,1:13:24.320
the whole company is recalming i'm stuck

1:13:22.480,1:13:25.760
today again please tell me that it's

1:13:24.320,1:13:28.000
fixed tomorrow

1:13:25.760,1:13:29.440
they needed to do a full stock recount

1:13:28.000,1:13:31.360
every day

1:13:29.440,1:13:32.480
and i had this chronicle that ran every

1:13:31.360,1:13:34.800
minute and it would

1:13:32.480,1:13:35.520
it would store the current stock status

1:13:34.800,1:13:37.840
in a

1:13:35.520,1:13:40.000
in a copy table so i would have the

1:13:37.840,1:13:41.679
stock table and then the shadow table

1:13:40.000,1:13:44.480
and i would compare every minute what

1:13:41.679,1:13:46.640
changed compared to the minute before

1:13:44.480,1:13:49.040
with a time stamp and then i would go

1:13:46.640,1:13:50.719
through server blocks and then see

1:13:49.040,1:13:53.760
okay they added this product in the back

1:13:50.719,1:13:56.159
end so this is genuine

1:13:53.760,1:13:58.320
ah okay here's a cancelled order and the

1:13:56.159,1:14:00.800
stock went up with two

1:13:58.320,1:14:02.000
okay so i would mark that red and then

1:14:00.800,1:14:03.440
look into that

1:14:02.000,1:14:05.520
and because there were three or four

1:14:03.440,1:14:08.080
different box uh boxes

1:14:05.520,1:14:10.560
at the same time there was no pattern so

1:14:08.080,1:14:12.400
just like oh so i have something here

1:14:10.560,1:14:14.480
but that doesn't match with this other

1:14:12.400,1:14:17.280
thing that i just had so

1:14:14.480,1:14:17.840
i'm looking at the wrong thing yeah and

1:14:17.280,1:14:20.000
that's

1:14:17.840,1:14:21.040
that's why my brain at some point just

1:14:20.000,1:14:24.080
it just melted

1:14:21.040,1:14:26.239
yeah because we did we actually did four

1:14:24.080,1:14:30.480
magenta two builds at that time

1:14:26.239,1:14:33.760
um and magenta 2.0 and 2.1

1:14:30.480,1:14:36.960
you're uh you're taking me back to some

1:14:33.760,1:14:39.760
some late nights like troubleshooting

1:14:36.960,1:14:43.120
like email delivery stuff like where it

1:14:39.760,1:14:45.040
was just like really stressful

1:14:43.120,1:14:47.520
and like you know if you do something

1:14:45.040,1:14:48.719
wrong there's like bad consequences and

1:14:47.520,1:14:51.360
i haven't i haven't had to deal with

1:14:48.719,1:14:53.600
that kind of thing in a while so

1:14:51.360,1:14:56.080
that's good but yeah the pressure of a

1:14:53.600,1:14:59.340
merchant calling you every day oh

1:14:56.080,1:15:00.400
god you wake up in the morning

1:14:59.340,1:15:02.640
[Music]

1:15:00.400,1:15:04.640
and it's the first thing you think of

1:15:02.640,1:15:07.920
and you go to bed in the evening

1:15:04.640,1:15:09.040
and and you lay awake just just trying

1:15:07.920,1:15:12.159
to figure out

1:15:09.040,1:15:13.040
trying to process and understanding what

1:15:12.159,1:15:16.000
the issue is

1:15:13.040,1:15:17.600
yeah and yeah there's a limit to that

1:15:16.000,1:15:21.360
you can have stress stress as a

1:15:17.600,1:15:24.400
perfectly natural state of being

1:15:21.360,1:15:27.040
and it saves lives but

1:15:24.400,1:15:28.880
that has to be um well you have to be

1:15:27.040,1:15:31.600
able to offload

1:15:28.880,1:15:33.600
and if you don't have to back up i had

1:15:31.600,1:15:34.960
some developers working for me they did

1:15:33.600,1:15:37.760
front end stuff

1:15:34.960,1:15:39.360
so they actually made sure that we still

1:15:37.760,1:15:42.800
had billable hours

1:15:39.360,1:15:45.600
but there was no one to

1:15:42.800,1:15:47.360
to fix issues if the server just went

1:15:45.600,1:15:50.320
down in the middle of the night or

1:15:47.360,1:15:52.640
yeah these kind of issues with magento 2

1:15:50.320,1:15:55.920
that all just came on me and

1:15:52.640,1:15:58.320
wasn't sustainable we had 24

1:15:55.920,1:15:59.760
25 magenta one customers and i could

1:15:58.320,1:16:01.650
handle those

1:15:59.760,1:16:03.120
on my own pretty much

1:16:01.650,1:16:06.000
[Music]

1:16:03.120,1:16:06.480
until we added four magenta to customers

1:16:06.000,1:16:08.960
to it

1:16:06.480,1:16:08.960
and then

1:16:11.040,1:16:16.239
yeah man i've been thinking about like

1:16:14.560,1:16:18.239
like kind of the meditation stuff and

1:16:16.239,1:16:22.400
like mental health stuff specifically

1:16:18.239,1:16:24.480
for like as developers i think there are

1:16:22.400,1:16:27.040
some unique

1:16:24.480,1:16:27.679
challenges that we face and some unique

1:16:27.040,1:16:31.199
um

1:16:27.679,1:16:32.719
types of pressures um

1:16:31.199,1:16:34.320
especially if you're in a situation like

1:16:32.719,1:16:35.920
that where something's down something in

1:16:34.320,1:16:38.719
production

1:16:35.920,1:16:39.440
and um you know you talked about your

1:16:38.719,1:16:41.280
burnout

1:16:39.440,1:16:44.560
i i feel like i've experienced some

1:16:41.280,1:16:48.080
different types of burnout as well

1:16:44.560,1:16:50.719
um and um

1:16:48.080,1:16:51.920
i think it's something that like people

1:16:50.719,1:16:56.080
are trying to figure out

1:16:51.920,1:16:57.600
and i think um i don't know i just i i

1:16:56.080,1:17:00.719
feel like we have to

1:16:57.600,1:17:03.280
we have to i feel like their

1:17:00.719,1:17:05.040
society problem it's a society-wide

1:17:03.280,1:17:06.880
problem and there's different flavors

1:17:05.040,1:17:08.719
you know there's different ways that it

1:17:06.880,1:17:10.239
impacts different people differently

1:17:08.719,1:17:12.000
but i think about it through the lens of

1:17:10.239,1:17:15.520
my own experience and through

1:17:12.000,1:17:17.840
like developers or people that i know um

1:17:15.520,1:17:19.360
and it's like man we have to find ways

1:17:17.840,1:17:21.840
to

1:17:19.360,1:17:25.199
work through these things because

1:17:21.840,1:17:26.960
sometimes that stress is just

1:17:25.199,1:17:29.120
it's a lot you know when you're

1:17:26.960,1:17:30.640
responsible for a production system with

1:17:29.120,1:17:34.080
a lot of money that's

1:17:30.640,1:17:36.000
impacting being impacted um it can cause

1:17:34.080,1:17:36.800
a lot of and we laugh about it you know

1:17:36.000,1:17:39.679
it's fun you know

1:17:36.800,1:17:40.960
i mean it's uh these horror stories are

1:17:39.679,1:17:44.000
no not anymore

1:17:40.960,1:17:46.320
no but it can be

1:17:44.000,1:17:48.560
be there's nothing to laugh and then you

1:17:46.320,1:17:49.760
like we laugh because we're familiar

1:17:48.560,1:17:51.760
with the pain

1:17:49.760,1:17:53.920
you know it's like it's like you

1:17:51.760,1:17:58.000
understand the pain

1:17:53.920,1:18:00.000
um and you know it's uh but yeah but

1:17:58.000,1:18:02.880
it's been

1:18:00.000,1:18:02.880
it's been uh

1:18:04.080,1:18:07.920
three years three and a half years since

1:18:06.960,1:18:12.000
my

1:18:07.920,1:18:15.360
last burnout um

1:18:12.000,1:18:16.400
and i still don't do developments

1:18:15.360,1:18:19.440
without back uh

1:18:16.400,1:18:22.400
deployments without backup i just

1:18:19.440,1:18:24.320
it keeps me sane it keeps me healthy

1:18:22.400,1:18:27.040
before

1:18:24.320,1:18:28.159
i do a deployment for a customer i ask

1:18:27.040,1:18:30.159
fabian

1:18:28.159,1:18:31.360
are you available something happens are

1:18:30.159,1:18:33.840
you available

1:18:31.360,1:18:34.560
and just that just knowing that it is

1:18:33.840,1:18:37.760
available

1:18:34.560,1:18:40.400
and if if the tension gets too high

1:18:37.760,1:18:41.920
i can ask him and he can fix stuff in a

1:18:40.400,1:18:45.199
deployment or whatever because

1:18:41.920,1:18:48.239
i know what the deployment system does

1:18:45.199,1:18:50.000
but at some point it gets so complex

1:18:48.239,1:18:50.960
that fabian will find it 10 times

1:18:50.000,1:18:53.360
quicker than me

1:18:50.960,1:18:55.120
and i thought i feel so much pressure

1:18:53.360,1:18:58.560
for the merchants

1:18:55.120,1:18:59.920
if that's too much downtime and that's

1:18:58.560,1:19:02.640
my whole issue like i take

1:18:59.920,1:19:04.239
responsibility and i make the merchant's

1:19:02.640,1:19:06.400
problem my own problem and that's

1:19:04.239,1:19:08.320
something

1:19:06.400,1:19:09.520
that's something good but it's something

1:19:08.320,1:19:13.360
that's costly

1:19:09.520,1:19:17.120
like so much of yourself in it um

1:19:13.360,1:19:19.199
and um yeah it's working really good

1:19:17.120,1:19:21.120
i've i've been super honest about this

1:19:19.199,1:19:23.199
from the moment i started with

1:19:21.120,1:19:25.040
working at intergenet it was two years

1:19:23.199,1:19:27.679
ago the enumerate situation i was

1:19:25.040,1:19:28.800
bad [ __ ] back then my brain just didn't

1:19:27.679,1:19:31.600
fully work

1:19:28.800,1:19:32.880
function yet um i was just getting back

1:19:31.600,1:19:34.880
on track being able to

1:19:32.880,1:19:36.000
actually program again which i couldn't

1:19:34.880,1:19:38.560
for half a year

1:19:36.000,1:19:39.679
like i just didn't have the focus and i

1:19:38.560,1:19:42.400
i had constant

1:19:39.679,1:19:42.880
migraines and i it just programming

1:19:42.400,1:19:45.520
wasn't

1:19:42.880,1:19:47.679
wasn't in it um so when i got started

1:19:45.520,1:19:50.000
with them i got the safety net where

1:19:47.679,1:19:51.120
i just told them like okay so these are

1:19:50.000,1:19:53.760
the things that i'm

1:19:51.120,1:19:54.880
perfectly able to do and here i have to

1:19:53.760,1:19:58.560
draw a line

1:19:54.880,1:20:01.920
and i have to protect myself and

1:19:58.560,1:20:05.360
for the first half

1:20:01.920,1:20:08.320
half a year maybe i i didn't take on

1:20:05.360,1:20:10.960
such responsibilities i just said

1:20:08.320,1:20:12.800
the deployment the release is ready

1:20:10.960,1:20:15.360
someone should deploy it

1:20:12.800,1:20:17.760
and then i took my hats off and that's

1:20:15.360,1:20:20.800
that really helped me

1:20:17.760,1:20:23.120
get back on track and uh

1:20:20.800,1:20:25.600
that's that's still a man it's still a

1:20:23.120,1:20:25.600
process

1:20:26.719,1:20:30.880
it's so important to know that your your

1:20:29.360,1:20:32.880
boundaries especially if you go through

1:20:30.880,1:20:35.520
like a situation like that

1:20:32.880,1:20:36.159
and to communicate those clearly and for

1:20:35.520,1:20:38.080
your team

1:20:36.159,1:20:40.560
because at the end of the day if you're

1:20:38.080,1:20:40.880
putting out a lot of code like of course

1:20:40.560,1:20:42.639
it's

1:20:40.880,1:20:44.239
great if the developer can deploy things

1:20:42.639,1:20:45.199
but if you can say hey here are my

1:20:44.239,1:20:46.719
limitations

1:20:45.199,1:20:48.719
but here are the things i can do well

1:20:46.719,1:20:52.320
you can communicate those clearly

1:20:48.719,1:20:52.960
then that can be uh that can be a really

1:20:52.320,1:20:56.159
great fit

1:20:52.960,1:20:57.520
you know and it's cool to see like

1:20:56.159,1:20:59.760
it's cool to see because i remember

1:20:57.520,1:21:00.639
seeing you you're you close down your

1:20:59.760,1:21:03.120
agency

1:21:00.639,1:21:05.360
tell me about the burnout and it's cool

1:21:03.120,1:21:08.320
to see that entrepreneurial

1:21:05.360,1:21:08.719
uh streak that you have coming back out

1:21:08.320,1:21:12.840
with

1:21:08.719,1:21:15.840
with java hoover

1:21:12.840,1:21:17.760
um every time i say that's gonna bug me

1:21:15.840,1:21:20.120
it's cool to see that you know because

1:21:17.760,1:21:21.760
like like we there's this term

1:21:20.120,1:21:23.239
intrapreneur i don't know if you've

1:21:21.760,1:21:24.560
heard that where you can be

1:21:23.239,1:21:27.679
entrepreneurial

1:21:24.560,1:21:29.199
but inside of a company and that's what

1:21:27.679,1:21:29.840
i think about when i see how you're

1:21:29.199,1:21:31.440
functioning

1:21:29.840,1:21:33.360
you know at internet and building out

1:21:31.440,1:21:36.080
this product and stuff like that

1:21:33.360,1:21:37.520
and it's cool to see that like you took

1:21:36.080,1:21:38.960
some time you figured out your

1:21:37.520,1:21:39.600
boundaries and things are going really

1:21:38.960,1:21:41.600
well

1:21:39.600,1:21:42.639
but you know you have this desire to

1:21:41.600,1:21:45.840
create

1:21:42.639,1:21:48.480
uh that's issues to

1:21:45.840,1:21:49.840
to to put something into the world and

1:21:48.480,1:21:53.120
not just

1:21:49.840,1:21:55.760
and not just for the sake of a merchant

1:21:53.120,1:21:57.360
or for the company that you work for i

1:21:55.760,1:22:00.400
mean

1:21:57.360,1:22:03.440
i started freelancing while i was

1:22:00.400,1:22:05.520
studying in the second year of my study

1:22:03.440,1:22:07.520
i was doing more freelancing than

1:22:05.520,1:22:10.639
actually going to school

1:22:07.520,1:22:10.639
starting the third year

1:22:10.719,1:22:17.040
i i worked the whole night

1:22:14.639,1:22:18.560
to make a deadline before the morning

1:22:17.040,1:22:21.600
and then in the afternoon

1:22:18.560,1:22:25.120
i went to school to take an exam

1:22:21.600,1:22:28.719
and then get back to work uh

1:22:25.120,1:22:33.360
that was all possible in your 18's um

1:22:28.719,1:22:36.239
but um now we lost the threat

1:22:33.360,1:22:37.840
anyway that's all right actually this is

1:22:36.239,1:22:39.840
probably a good time to wrap things up

1:22:37.840,1:22:41.199
man this is a really good uh

1:22:39.840,1:22:43.520
this is a really good chat it was great

1:22:41.199,1:22:46.880
to catch up um

1:22:43.520,1:22:47.760
but uh where is uh where is the best

1:22:46.880,1:22:52.080
place for

1:22:47.760,1:22:54.070
people to find you online

1:22:52.080,1:22:56.960
um that's

1:22:54.070,1:22:59.360
[Music]

1:22:56.960,1:22:59.360
twitter

1:23:02.800,1:23:06.719
i think you pronounce it

1:23:16.400,1:23:20.639
i always say willem wigman in my head

1:23:18.159,1:23:24.080
that's how i say it

1:23:20.639,1:23:24.080
that's how i that's how i take it

1:23:24.159,1:23:27.440
that works that works and yeah if you

1:23:26.480,1:23:30.159
want to check out

1:23:27.440,1:23:30.719
uh the new front end that we're building

1:23:30.159,1:23:34.480
it's

1:23:30.719,1:23:38.639
h y v a dot io

1:23:34.480,1:23:38.639
nice and how can we talk

1:23:39.400,1:23:45.280
[Laughter]

1:23:41.840,1:23:46.800
and how i know you mentioned uh briefly

1:23:45.280,1:23:48.480
sort of some of the features you have

1:23:46.800,1:23:49.840
left to build like configurable products

1:23:48.480,1:23:53.199
and stuff like that

1:23:49.840,1:23:55.280
um are you targeting when are you

1:23:53.199,1:23:59.199
targeting to be production ready

1:23:55.280,1:24:01.199
to be sort of feature complete yes

1:23:59.199,1:24:03.440
complete that's two different things

1:24:01.199,1:24:03.440
right

1:24:03.920,1:24:06.960
so it's currently production ready but

1:24:06.080,1:24:09.920
what are the

1:24:06.960,1:24:11.120
what are the features that are missing

1:24:09.920,1:24:14.960
yeah i mean a bunch

1:24:11.120,1:24:16.639
well um as you said i'm building out

1:24:14.960,1:24:19.199
configurables

1:24:16.639,1:24:20.639
and that's taking a bit of time because

1:24:19.199,1:24:24.719
i'm reducing complexity

1:24:20.639,1:24:27.040
uh complexity there and

1:24:24.719,1:24:28.719
the way that's written in core magento

1:24:27.040,1:24:30.719
is just

1:24:28.719,1:24:32.239
hard to grasp and i want to change that

1:24:30.719,1:24:35.600
so i'm not i'm not just

1:24:32.239,1:24:39.120
porting stuff from luma over to to viva

1:24:35.600,1:24:40.960
um i really try to rethink and see how

1:24:39.120,1:24:43.280
we can simplify things

1:24:40.960,1:24:45.760
but i have working configurables and

1:24:43.280,1:24:48.080
that's almost done

1:24:45.760,1:24:50.880
then there's a bit of finalization work

1:24:48.080,1:24:50.880
on the wish list

1:24:50.960,1:24:57.920
then probably i move on to bundles

1:24:56.239,1:24:59.520
and then we have some work to do on the

1:24:57.920,1:25:03.120
react checkout

1:24:59.520,1:25:05.040
um but um yeah stuff that will be

1:25:03.120,1:25:08.639
missing from the beginning is

1:25:05.040,1:25:12.159
things like diet pricing um

1:25:08.639,1:25:14.560
compare products um

1:25:12.159,1:25:16.080
i don't think we'll ever have multiple

1:25:14.560,1:25:18.560
address shipping

1:25:16.080,1:25:19.280
i don't even think bwa studio will have

1:25:18.560,1:25:21.840
it

1:25:19.280,1:25:23.600
uh that's just a done done thing and

1:25:21.840,1:25:24.239
yeah so that's a few things like that

1:25:23.600,1:25:26.880
that

1:25:24.239,1:25:28.320
um i think serves the five percent of

1:25:26.880,1:25:31.120
the market

1:25:28.320,1:25:32.000
like compare products i i haven't

1:25:31.120,1:25:34.960
implemented

1:25:32.000,1:25:37.520
any shop using compare in ten years of

1:25:34.960,1:25:37.520
doing materials

1:25:39.040,1:25:42.320
i mean if you have a hardware store and

1:25:41.199,1:25:44.800
you sell computers

1:25:42.320,1:25:46.000
it makes perfect sense so we'll build it

1:25:44.800,1:25:48.639
but it won't be

1:25:46.000,1:25:49.440
in the first release um and we'll

1:25:48.639,1:25:51.520
communicate

1:25:49.440,1:25:52.960
really clearly what features we have and

1:25:51.520,1:25:56.080
what you can expect to be

1:25:52.960,1:25:59.199
in the in the first version um

1:25:56.080,1:26:03.120
i have a wait list that's growing

1:25:59.199,1:26:05.280
um but we'll start except

1:26:03.120,1:26:07.280
accepting people somewhere next

1:26:05.280,1:26:08.800
wednesday so from the people that are

1:26:07.280,1:26:11.920
already on the wait list

1:26:08.800,1:26:12.880
uh we'll be accepting some of those next

1:26:11.920,1:26:15.440
week

1:26:12.880,1:26:16.880
so they'll get an invitation to actually

1:26:15.440,1:26:19.520
buy the license

1:26:16.880,1:26:20.480
um i'm talking with a few agencies that

1:26:19.520,1:26:23.360
are interested

1:26:20.480,1:26:23.760
um got a lot of response of agencies

1:26:23.360,1:26:26.800
that

1:26:23.760,1:26:29.920
really want to help build it out

1:26:26.800,1:26:31.600
um also offers to build out the b2b

1:26:29.920,1:26:34.840
functionalities so to

1:26:31.600,1:26:38.159
to make it a magenta enterprise or

1:26:34.840,1:26:38.159
commerce compatible

1:26:38.480,1:26:41.520
some of them that want to work on the

1:26:40.320,1:26:44.880
accessibility

1:26:41.520,1:26:47.840
or the seo part of it i would expect

1:26:44.880,1:26:48.239
all of the agencies that join that they

1:26:47.840,1:26:50.639
also

1:26:48.239,1:26:51.920
share the compatibility modules that

1:26:50.639,1:26:55.120
were built

1:26:51.920,1:26:56.639
so the ideas you want to wrap up but we

1:26:55.120,1:26:58.960
keep going hey that's okay it's

1:26:56.639,1:27:01.679
important

1:26:58.960,1:27:02.560
so the idea is that we buy the built a

1:27:01.679,1:27:05.280
library

1:27:02.560,1:27:06.800
of compatibility modules so if you have

1:27:05.280,1:27:09.520
this gtm module or

1:27:06.800,1:27:11.760
block module or store locator you pull

1:27:09.520,1:27:15.120
in the original one

1:27:11.760,1:27:16.800
through composer and then you install

1:27:15.120,1:27:18.800
our compatibility module

1:27:16.800,1:27:20.320
that only adds the bits that you need

1:27:18.800,1:27:22.800
for the front end

1:27:20.320,1:27:24.400
so uh we'll overwrite the template files

1:27:22.800,1:27:26.320
in the javascript

1:27:24.400,1:27:27.440
so our compatibility module will be

1:27:26.320,1:27:30.400
really small

1:27:27.440,1:27:31.440
um only replacing the paths that we need

1:27:30.400,1:27:35.040
to replace

1:27:31.440,1:27:37.920
um and yeah the part of

1:27:35.040,1:27:38.480
getting this this community feel is that

1:27:37.920,1:27:40.719
we

1:27:38.480,1:27:43.040
share these modules and they'll be

1:27:40.719,1:27:46.960
available for anyone that has a license

1:27:43.040,1:27:47.679
so imagine we're doing five simultaneous

1:27:46.960,1:27:50.080
builds

1:27:47.679,1:27:51.760
algantos told me they're going to do at

1:27:50.080,1:27:53.760
least 10 next year

1:27:51.760,1:27:55.199
and there's more agencies that are

1:27:53.760,1:27:56.960
saying

1:27:55.199,1:27:58.639
from what we've seen right now and also

1:27:56.960,1:27:59.280
the ones that already already touched

1:27:58.639,1:28:01.440
the code

1:27:59.280,1:28:02.560
they're saying this might be the one

1:28:01.440,1:28:03.600
thing that we're going to do in the

1:28:02.560,1:28:06.800
future

1:28:03.600,1:28:10.719
so maybe not even pwa

1:28:06.800,1:28:12.719
anymore or we do pwa and huva

1:28:10.719,1:28:14.880
and if we get all these agencies on

1:28:12.719,1:28:16.800
board and contribute with this

1:28:14.880,1:28:19.840
compatibility modules

1:28:16.800,1:28:23.679
will have a very large library of

1:28:19.840,1:28:26.960
modules pretty soon and that also

1:28:23.679,1:28:30.480
well we didn't open source the checkout

1:28:26.960,1:28:32.239
without reason that especially so the

1:28:30.480,1:28:32.880
checkout that we build is a react-based

1:28:32.239,1:28:35.040
and

1:28:32.880,1:28:37.360
it's completely headless so if you're

1:28:35.040,1:28:39.040
doing pwa studio you could even use our

1:28:37.360,1:28:42.080
checkouts

1:28:39.040,1:28:43.920
if you use few storefront or luma

1:28:42.080,1:28:46.239
or whatever hapless you could use or

1:28:43.920,1:28:48.080
check out which opens it up for

1:28:46.239,1:28:50.480
contributions for anyone that's doing

1:28:48.080,1:28:52.639
magento um

1:28:50.480,1:28:54.639
i will need to implement shipping and

1:28:52.639,1:28:56.800
payment there for different providers

1:28:54.639,1:28:58.639
and as you know every country has its

1:28:56.800,1:29:02.400
own payments providers

1:28:58.639,1:29:05.840
and so it would really help if

1:29:02.400,1:29:07.920
if we can build it out got it

1:29:05.840,1:29:09.840
yeah yeah that makes sense that sounds

1:29:07.920,1:29:12.000
awesome man well congratulations on all

1:29:09.840,1:29:15.120
the interest in the launch

1:29:12.000,1:29:19.760
very happy for you it looks great and i

1:29:15.120,1:29:19.760
will talk to you soon