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#83 A Twenty Year Old Alt-Milk Company | Mark Lewis

Mark Lewis is the CEO of Netalico, an eCommerce agency specializing in Magento and Shopify.

In this episode, we talk about one of Mark's recent site launches (Oatly), some of what I've been working on with Commerce Hero, agencies vs. individual hires for merchants, OpenMage bug bounty, and more.

Transcript
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so i think of the like kind of alt milks

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uh

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oats are are one of the most

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milks it's like all coins

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yeah i love it

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not oat milk

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[Music]

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how's um how's your uh no meetings

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mondays and fridays going

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it's it's great going great the best

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mondays and fridays

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of my life so

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this week is kind of get getting a

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messed up because there's meet magento

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uh new york on friday ah so that's you

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know

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that's gonna be some meetings and

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it's unfortunate but uh breaking the

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rules

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we'll make do break in the rule i'm

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making an exception making an exception

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for

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you know mage mojo and nexus like

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yeah like you know like honestly that's

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kind of the good thing

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also about keeping mondays and fridays

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open is

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i can kind of schedule like emergency

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meetings or calls

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where it's like i feel like doctors

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offices

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do this too or dentist office they they

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like have a

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like a very like open schedule and then

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you if you want like a regular checkup

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they're like

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yeah that'll be three months but if you

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want like a filling they'll be like oh

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we'll do that next week yeah yeah yeah

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yeah yeah that's the good stuff

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doctors in denver so if there's

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something really important yeah they're

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so bizarre with scheduling it's like you

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schedule it and then you get there and

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it's like yeah

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just wait in the waiting room for a

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couple hours

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you know while we get around to you

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you know it's the worst triage

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yeah yeah yeah i guess it's just because

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they like

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um i guess it's like due to like

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medical billing and stuff where they're

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not necessarily like

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getting paid or whatever so they just

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have to like

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streamline it to where they spend like

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4.5 minutes with you max

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and they just back to back right back

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you know

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yeah and the doctor's time is like

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really valuable compared to

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you know various staff yeah and nurses

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right right

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it's like they try to do everything else

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you accept that the doctor can do and

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but then like

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medically the doctor still needs to come

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in and talk to you for like

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you know 30 seconds yeah yeah yeah

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yeah my wife went to this um like

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naturopath doctor

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and uh she just like sat there and

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talked to her for like an

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hour and a half like because you're just

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you're just paying like cash like their

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normal rate you know so you actually are

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paying for

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their time and then they just sit there

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and talk to you

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like ask a bunch of questions and yeah

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it's kind of cool it seems like what

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it should be if we didn't have like a

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shortage of doctors yeah

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like a you know interesting

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medical system you know yeah i think i i

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think there would be a lot

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we would have to have a lot more doctors

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in the world to be able to like give

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that

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time and attention to everyone yeah

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that's the thing it's like everybody's

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like oh like

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like everybody deserves health care like

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ever you're gonna

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everybody can get unlimited health care

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no matter what you

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have and it's like okay well there's

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only

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so much to go around it's like a i don't

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know it's like a supply and demand thing

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and it's like not enough supply i mean

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it

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it has to be rash rationed in some way

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because like

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literally there's just not much supply

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right i think

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uh a lot of the debate is like uh the

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equality or inequality over how we

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ration it

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right do we ration it based on wealthy

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people

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you know and there's like dystopian

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fiction about that kind of thing too

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where it can get too extreme where like

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wealthy people have

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free or supply of organs donors and

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you know and then poor people can't even

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get like

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yeah but antibiotics or something like

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that

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yeah i mean there there's a balance but

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uh

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i think yeah

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it is man it's depressing i just try not

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to think about health care

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i was talking to my wife about it and i

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was like

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it's like um oh we're like would you

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want like

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um like single-payer healthcare

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and i was like i think i'd want that

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you know and i'm a little more on the

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conservative side so like

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whatever but i was like i kind of want

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that like to

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just not have to think about health care

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and then she's like she's like well

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it doesn't really matter because people

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already get

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um health care like like well she was

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talking about like her

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like her mom like couldn't pay for

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something so there's already programs

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you know to get that kind of stuff yeah

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medicated

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yeah and then and then i was like well

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we have like just emergency stuff and we

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pay like

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1200 1300 bucks a month and it's like

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just like wow nothing doesn't cover

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anything

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right and then it's just like

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where we landed was just like ah i'm

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gonna just try to be in good shape so i

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don't have to go to the doctor

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that was like a psychopathy

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i guess yeah

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i'm gonna just stay away from the doctor

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that's always my like

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takeaway it's like oh that's not just

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not get sick

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yeah that's the plan yeah

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it's not very realistic but i don't know

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well i mean that is one of kind of the

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arguments

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that people make uh whereas like we

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don't

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some some people don't want single-payer

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obviously and they're

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they say like oh well then people can

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just be unhealthy

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and then the rest of society you know

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pays for it

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right but i don't think people

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necessarily like think about their

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decisions at like that

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micro level of right oh you know

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if i'm overweight it's gonna cost you

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know

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me more right right right i think people

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like

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get healthy because they just want to be

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healthy right it's like

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yeah it's too delayed like the the um

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the mechanism the reward or punishment

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mechanism is too

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it's too delayed for it to people to

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actually make the connection you know

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um right yeah yeah

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so it's an issue yeah

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so how's business business

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it's good e-commerce e-commerce is good

0:07:25.759,0:07:31.840
these days you know yeah um been

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been busy i think people that are

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definitely like heating up for the

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the black friday um sales where

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everyone's trying to get in

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you know their their projects before

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black friday and

0:07:42.400,0:07:49.039
right after that it's kind of right it's

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crazy you got that black friday rush

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yeah yeah that's cool because like it's

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it's interesting because even though

0:07:53.759,0:08:00.560
there's like a lot of shopping and sales

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um sometimes there's a little like

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like lull and work between black friday

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and then like

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christmas because uh ideally you want to

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have like those projects done before

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black friday

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like if you're still working on them

0:08:13.520,0:08:15.759
it's kind of

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it's kind of too late you don't want to

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launch anything big because

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you want to have a code freeze and you

0:08:20.879,0:08:25.680
basically want to be doing the

0:08:22.560,0:08:27.520
emergency things during that period yeah

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just kind of being like a firefighter

0:08:27.520,0:08:34.479
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so the um the

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oatley project you had fun with that one

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that was cool yeah it was a good time

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i'm wearing my oats

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ah nice i guess it's reversed

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yeah so they they basically make like

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oat milk like it's like an alternative

0:08:46.080,0:08:49.760
to like

0:08:46.640,0:08:52.800
almond milk is that the idea

0:08:49.760,0:08:54.640
and is it like and like why like why oat

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is it like more sustainable or something

0:08:54.640,0:08:56.959
like that

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because i know i've heard like almond

0:08:56.959,0:09:02.560
milk is like requires

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a ton of water and stuff like that

0:09:02.560,0:09:06.399
yeah for sure so i think of the like

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kind of alt milk's

0:09:06.399,0:09:12.240
uh oats are are one of the most

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salt milks it's such a funny it's like

0:09:12.240,0:09:15.040
all coins

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i love it

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it's not

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[Laughter]

0:09:24.560,0:09:30.959
so that's like the most sustainable one

0:09:28.320,0:09:32.959
yeah because they can really like plant

0:09:30.959,0:09:35.600
like giant fields of oats and

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it doesn't take like copious amounts of

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water

0:09:36.240,0:09:42.320
like almost and right um the con

0:09:39.600,0:09:43.839
the concept that they came up with like

0:09:42.320,0:09:45.600
oatly is a swedish company

0:09:43.839,0:09:46.880
and they're actually like 20 years old

0:09:45.600,0:09:48.720
um oh wow

0:09:46.880,0:09:50.560
they've only been recently like

0:09:48.720,0:09:52.720
rebranded so that people know it i

0:09:50.560,0:09:54.160
thought it was like a fancy new like

0:09:52.720,0:09:56.320
brand new like

0:09:54.160,0:09:58.160
like business you know it just has that

0:09:56.320,0:10:01.440
vibe to it

0:09:58.160,0:10:03.279
yeah well it it has that vibe because

0:10:01.440,0:10:04.560
it was started like by scientists like

0:10:03.279,0:10:07.600
20 years ago oh

0:10:04.560,0:10:10.800
wow a couple years ago that

0:10:07.600,0:10:13.760
they got up on a new ceo and like

0:10:10.800,0:10:14.720
he completely like rebranded the product

0:10:13.760,0:10:16.839
and

0:10:14.720,0:10:18.240
bought it brought in like this design

0:10:16.839,0:10:21.279
officer um

0:10:18.240,0:10:23.360
that made them like what they are today

0:10:21.279,0:10:25.360
it's i'll send you like later like a

0:10:23.360,0:10:28.079
before and after of the boxes like

0:10:25.360,0:10:29.040
before it looks like a medical product

0:10:28.079,0:10:32.240
and then

0:10:29.040,0:10:34.079
i can imagine yeah

0:10:32.240,0:10:35.839
that's cool and so they just have like

0:10:34.079,0:10:38.640
really funny branding

0:10:35.839,0:10:40.480
yeah yeah so scientifically the the

0:10:38.640,0:10:44.399
concept was

0:10:40.480,0:10:44.880
uh cows eat oats um and cows produce

0:10:44.399,0:10:49.040
milk

0:10:44.880,0:10:50.560
so i did not know that i thought they

0:10:49.040,0:10:53.760
ate like

0:10:50.560,0:10:56.399
grass and that's cool

0:10:53.760,0:10:57.120
well grass-fed cows grass-fed cows and

0:10:56.399,0:10:59.200
oat fed

0:10:57.120,0:11:01.360
and i know corn is the thing that's like

0:10:59.200,0:11:04.560
not ideal for

0:11:01.360,0:11:06.480
for cows to eat right

0:11:04.560,0:11:08.959
but yeah so that was the thinking is

0:11:06.480,0:11:11.600
like it's grass and

0:11:08.959,0:11:12.320
bypass the cow basically and like

0:11:11.600,0:11:14.880
interesting

0:11:12.320,0:11:16.240
dude it it's literally like there

0:11:14.880,0:11:19.920
there's like um

0:11:16.240,0:11:22.880
a bacteria bacterial process that like

0:11:19.920,0:11:24.720
you know makes the oats into the milk

0:11:22.880,0:11:27.040
and it's like a fermentation and

0:11:24.720,0:11:28.640
not even like have yogurt and that kind

0:11:27.040,0:11:31.360
of thing where it's nice

0:11:28.640,0:11:31.760
it is like like the biological process

0:11:31.360,0:11:34.800
is

0:11:31.760,0:11:38.399
very similar to oh that's cool

0:11:34.800,0:11:41.760
with dairy yeah yeah nice

0:11:38.399,0:11:42.000
so i like it i like i'm not normally

0:11:41.760,0:11:45.200
like

0:11:42.000,0:11:47.760
a fan of all milks um but

0:11:45.200,0:11:48.640
it's it's the closest thing i've gotten

0:11:47.760,0:11:52.720
to like

0:11:48.640,0:11:55.680
especially on coffee yeah i

0:11:52.720,0:11:56.000
i definitely the the the anti-almond

0:11:55.680,0:11:57.920
milk

0:11:56.000,0:11:59.920
propaganda is definitely working on me

0:11:57.920,0:12:01.760
because it it it but because we that's

0:11:59.920,0:12:03.440
all we drink is almond milk

0:12:01.760,0:12:04.880
and it definitely in the back of my head

0:12:03.440,0:12:07.440
i feel guilty about it

0:12:04.880,0:12:07.920
because like have you seen the movie or

0:12:07.440,0:12:11.120
the uh

0:12:07.920,0:12:14.399
it's a prime series called goliath with

0:12:11.120,0:12:15.519
um oh god it's so good what's the name

0:12:14.399,0:12:18.800
of the guy

0:12:15.519,0:12:22.000
used to be married to angelina jolie a

0:12:18.800,0:12:22.320
really good actor right no no before

0:12:22.000,0:12:26.639
that

0:12:22.320,0:12:29.920
no before that in the like dark phase

0:12:26.639,0:12:32.480
oh what's this dave

0:12:29.920,0:12:33.200
not daniel day-lewis um anyway it's

0:12:32.480,0:12:36.800
really good

0:12:33.200,0:12:39.279
um but

0:12:36.800,0:12:41.360
yeah there's this um it's i think in

0:12:39.279,0:12:43.839
like the fourth season of it

0:12:41.360,0:12:44.720
yes he was married to angelina jolie

0:12:43.839,0:12:46.880
right

0:12:44.720,0:12:49.360
i think so yeah i just googled it yeah

0:12:46.880,0:12:52.639
that's that's how i knew it okay

0:12:49.360,0:12:53.760
yeah he's good man it's it's a really

0:12:52.639,0:12:55.839
good series and

0:12:53.760,0:12:57.120
and i think in like the last season

0:12:55.839,0:13:00.639
they're going up against

0:12:57.120,0:13:05.200
basically big almond basically

0:13:00.639,0:13:09.200
this big almond milk uh outfit and uh

0:13:05.200,0:13:11.440
it's uh it was it's pretty good but um

0:13:09.200,0:13:13.040
there's so much controversy about that

0:13:11.440,0:13:15.360
like in sweden they're

0:13:13.040,0:13:16.800
actually the dairy industry sued them

0:13:15.360,0:13:17.760
and they're not allowed to call their

0:13:16.800,0:13:20.240
product milk

0:13:17.760,0:13:21.360
right and there's some lawsuits in some

0:13:20.240,0:13:23.200
u.s states too that

0:13:21.360,0:13:25.360
right the dairy industry is trying to

0:13:23.200,0:13:28.720
like get it outlawed

0:13:25.360,0:13:31.760
right right i heard yeah i think i heard

0:13:28.720,0:13:34.800
um so seeing a podcast

0:13:31.760,0:13:39.040
and um it was either

0:13:34.800,0:13:41.120
um the dairy industry or something else

0:13:39.040,0:13:43.279
and they were referencing that issue

0:13:41.120,0:13:46.639
with the dairy industry

0:13:43.279,0:13:50.240
and um they were basically like saying

0:13:46.639,0:13:52.720
um oh i think it might have been like um

0:13:50.240,0:13:54.000
the meat industry talking about like

0:13:52.720,0:13:57.440
imitate like uh

0:13:54.000,0:13:58.880
you know lab produced meat

0:13:57.440,0:14:00.880
yeah all that kind of stuff yeah and

0:13:58.880,0:14:02.720
then it was like a pr person

0:14:00.880,0:14:04.560
and they were just like they were like

0:14:02.720,0:14:05.279
very innocently like well you know we

0:14:04.560,0:14:07.600
just want

0:14:05.279,0:14:08.399
you know consumers to be aware of of

0:14:07.600,0:14:11.600
what

0:14:08.399,0:14:15.199
is milk and what's not milk you know

0:14:11.600,0:14:18.880
it's like it's like yeah

0:14:15.199,0:14:21.920
it just but it is funny

0:14:18.880,0:14:23.600
yeah it is funny though how like

0:14:21.920,0:14:25.199
you think of the you think of it like

0:14:23.600,0:14:25.600
you call it almond milk and you think of

0:14:25.199,0:14:28.800
it as

0:14:25.600,0:14:32.320
milk but it has like

0:14:28.800,0:14:34.320
zero connection to like cow milk but my

0:14:32.320,0:14:35.760
wife started calling it cow milk once

0:14:34.320,0:14:38.240
like

0:14:35.760,0:14:40.240
once she started like getting me into

0:14:38.240,0:14:42.720
almond milk she'd call regular milk

0:14:40.240,0:14:45.440
cow milk and it just kind of like

0:14:42.720,0:14:49.440
grossed me out

0:14:45.440,0:14:49.440
but she did that on purpose

0:14:49.519,0:14:53.600
so that worked it's but it is funny how

0:14:52.959,0:14:55.600
they have

0:14:53.600,0:14:56.800
they're done think about it it is kind

0:14:55.600,0:14:59.199
of gross

0:14:56.800,0:15:01.199
i mean like it's pretty i still like

0:14:59.199,0:15:02.720
actually i like milk milk but this is

0:15:01.199,0:15:04.959
like it comes from this

0:15:02.720,0:15:08.480
these others yeah and they're just like

0:15:04.959,0:15:08.480
it's a lot going on down there

0:15:08.560,0:15:14.480
yeah and then cheese is like old milk

0:15:11.760,0:15:15.760
like it's just like aged and blue cheese

0:15:14.480,0:15:17.760
like

0:15:15.760,0:15:19.199
i love cheese but like if i don't try to

0:15:17.760,0:15:22.399
think about like the process

0:15:19.199,0:15:25.920
yeah yeah

0:15:22.399,0:15:26.639
like how is cheese good like i was like

0:15:25.920,0:15:29.440
like

0:15:26.639,0:15:31.440
like why like it it doesn't doesn't make

0:15:29.440,0:15:34.320
any sense whatsoever

0:15:31.440,0:15:35.360
how did anyone get the idea of like like

0:15:34.320,0:15:37.759
leaving out like

0:15:35.360,0:15:38.720
milk and like like doing all those

0:15:37.759,0:15:41.920
processes

0:15:38.720,0:15:44.160
yeah like like it's

0:15:41.920,0:15:45.120
like now like obviously we know cheese

0:15:44.160,0:15:46.959
is good right

0:15:45.120,0:15:49.120
so they make it and they whatever but

0:15:46.959,0:15:51.040
like when it first started

0:15:49.120,0:15:53.519
like it had to be some person that was

0:15:51.040,0:15:56.800
just like super gross

0:15:53.519,0:15:58.959
just like like some like moldy

0:15:56.800,0:16:00.240
something and they're like yeah i'll try

0:15:58.959,0:16:02.480
it out

0:16:00.240,0:16:04.800
what's the what's the worst that could

0:16:02.480,0:16:08.000
happen

0:16:04.800,0:16:10.000
right oh my gosh i'm cracking myself up

0:16:08.000,0:16:12.160
there's a lot of like gross fermented

0:16:10.000,0:16:13.199
things that we drink like and like

0:16:12.160,0:16:16.720
kombucha

0:16:13.199,0:16:20.000
right are you into that i've never made

0:16:16.720,0:16:23.199
um my sister was really into it and

0:16:20.000,0:16:23.839
one of my clients like used to do it

0:16:23.199,0:16:26.880
like as

0:16:23.839,0:16:28.000
as the business and and like you scrape

0:16:26.880,0:16:31.839
off the scoby

0:16:28.000,0:16:34.560
and like the concept is a little gross

0:16:31.839,0:16:36.399
so like it's better if i have the

0:16:34.560,0:16:37.120
finished product like if i can get it in

0:16:36.399,0:16:39.040
a bottle

0:16:37.120,0:16:40.320
i don't want it but if i think about it

0:16:39.040,0:16:43.440
too much i'm like

0:16:40.320,0:16:44.320
yeah yeah yeah i was i was i heard

0:16:43.440,0:16:45.920
somebody

0:16:44.320,0:16:47.040
i don't know tim ferriss or somebody

0:16:45.920,0:16:48.639
talking about the other day and i've

0:16:47.040,0:16:51.440
been trying to do more health

0:16:48.639,0:16:52.160
you know stuff and health nuts are

0:16:51.440,0:16:54.399
always into

0:16:52.160,0:16:56.880
kombucha so it's like ah maybe i should

0:16:54.399,0:17:00.000
try to get into that you know

0:16:56.880,0:17:04.079
um it's like beer but maybe healthy

0:17:00.000,0:17:05.880
yeah right it's naturally like kind of

0:17:04.079,0:17:10.000
alcoholic and they like

0:17:05.880,0:17:11.760
de-alcoholize it most of it oh do they

0:17:10.000,0:17:13.679
yeah yeah so if you if you want a

0:17:11.760,0:17:15.919
healthy beer

0:17:13.679,0:17:18.400
how do you get all these like hipstery

0:17:15.919,0:17:22.000
clients like kombucha

0:17:18.400,0:17:24.640
oat milk like all the like

0:17:22.000,0:17:25.919
all the cool well yeah those cultures

0:17:24.640,0:17:30.400
were helped

0:17:25.919,0:17:30.400
i parties

0:17:30.840,0:17:35.520
parties

0:17:33.280,0:17:36.640
new york and he introduced me to the

0:17:35.520,0:17:39.919
oatly people

0:17:36.640,0:17:43.039
nice yeah that i think it's

0:17:39.919,0:17:46.160
uh just living you know just living in

0:17:43.039,0:17:48.160
and trying to like well the thing that

0:17:46.160,0:17:49.280
i've i realized is like not to talk

0:17:48.160,0:17:52.480
about business

0:17:49.280,0:17:54.640
in total in parties and totally

0:17:52.480,0:17:56.400
try not to bring up business but

0:17:54.640,0:17:58.799
everyone does have

0:17:56.400,0:17:59.440
most people do have something that they

0:17:58.799,0:18:01.360
do

0:17:59.440,0:18:02.960
and that at some point it becomes

0:18:01.360,0:18:05.760
relevant but right

0:18:02.960,0:18:06.720
try to build relationships first and

0:18:05.760,0:18:10.000
then like oh

0:18:06.720,0:18:13.440
you do e-commerce yeah like yeah

0:18:10.000,0:18:15.760
yeah yeah i try not to like

0:18:13.440,0:18:17.120
bring it up yeah because if i bring it

0:18:15.760,0:18:18.960
up like randomly

0:18:17.120,0:18:21.039
and be like what do you do and i'm like

0:18:18.960,0:18:25.039
e-commerce and shopify and they're like

0:18:21.039,0:18:28.160
shopify i i sell necklaces i don't know

0:18:25.039,0:18:31.600
can you help me

0:18:28.160,0:18:33.919
yeah it's almost like like you heard in

0:18:31.600,0:18:36.240
it can you fix my router you know

0:18:33.919,0:18:37.360
did you do shopify can you can you help

0:18:36.240,0:18:40.640
me drop ship

0:18:37.360,0:18:44.000
stuff yeah like i mean i

0:18:40.640,0:18:45.919
i don't know um it's really complicated

0:18:44.000,0:18:47.600
my team does that i don't know anything

0:18:45.919,0:18:50.559
about shops really

0:18:47.600,0:18:50.559
complicated

0:18:52.480,0:18:57.280
there's cloud flare workers it's really

0:18:55.280,0:18:58.960
it's hearts i don't it's sorry it's

0:18:57.280,0:19:02.320
impossible

0:18:58.960,0:19:04.880
dude that um that cloudflare thing

0:19:02.320,0:19:07.600
um that you posted recently it was like

0:19:04.880,0:19:10.480
the thing of injecting javascript

0:19:07.600,0:19:11.840
um or some there was basically that

0:19:10.480,0:19:13.760
thing we had talked about but then

0:19:11.840,0:19:14.960
somebody specifically was like oh how do

0:19:13.760,0:19:17.360
i inject

0:19:14.960,0:19:18.000
whatever into the checkout if you're not

0:19:17.360,0:19:20.640
on plus

0:19:18.000,0:19:22.320
and you were like boom and i was like

0:19:20.640,0:19:25.679
that's such a cool use case

0:19:22.320,0:19:26.640
yeah that's yeah it's like exactly what

0:19:25.679,0:19:29.840
people

0:19:26.640,0:19:32.320
would use it for or want it for because

0:19:29.840,0:19:34.080
literally like uh if you're not on

0:19:32.320,0:19:34.559
shopify plus you have to tell clients

0:19:34.080,0:19:37.200
like

0:19:34.559,0:19:38.080
no we can't do google tag manager right

0:19:37.200,0:19:40.480
check out

0:19:38.080,0:19:41.360
right we can embed it into the regular

0:19:40.480,0:19:43.360
theme but

0:19:41.360,0:19:44.480
we don't have control over the checkout

0:19:43.360,0:19:47.200
right

0:19:44.480,0:19:47.919
but that rewriter script i mean

0:19:47.200,0:19:52.240
literally

0:19:47.919,0:19:55.679
it's really simple too yeah yeah

0:19:52.240,0:19:57.360
yeah yeah it's it's such a i keep

0:19:55.679,0:19:59.600
like thinking about that and thinking

0:19:57.360,0:20:01.440
about use cases for it because it feels

0:19:59.600,0:20:03.039
like it just kind of unlocks a lot of

0:20:01.440,0:20:06.880
different stuff

0:20:03.039,0:20:08.960
um but uh yeah

0:20:06.880,0:20:09.919
i'm i'm thinking about it for like in

0:20:08.960,0:20:12.640
shopify

0:20:09.919,0:20:13.200
um the regular part of it not just the

0:20:12.640,0:20:16.559
checkout

0:20:13.200,0:20:18.000
a lot of apps like install themselves in

0:20:16.559,0:20:21.679
ways that you can't control

0:20:18.000,0:20:24.240
like like dynamically like insert

0:20:21.679,0:20:24.960
the javascript um it's not even in the

0:20:24.240,0:20:27.919
theme

0:20:24.960,0:20:28.799
right and i'm thinking about like oh how

0:20:27.919,0:20:31.280
can i like

0:20:28.799,0:20:33.120
rewrite that if like an app is doing

0:20:31.280,0:20:36.159
something that i don't want it to

0:20:33.120,0:20:38.480
i can like defer that right for like

0:20:36.159,0:20:40.400
right speed issues and that kind of

0:20:38.480,0:20:42.799
thing right it's almost like

0:20:40.400,0:20:44.159
another version of like back like with

0:20:42.799,0:20:46.480
magento you know like

0:20:44.159,0:20:48.240
if an extension is inserting something

0:20:46.480,0:20:50.240
into the layout xml

0:20:48.240,0:20:51.840
and then like you want to not do that

0:20:50.240,0:20:54.159
like you go in and you like

0:20:51.840,0:20:55.840
intercept it and you prevent it or

0:20:54.159,0:20:57.039
whatever it's like doing that but like

0:20:55.840,0:20:59.440
at the

0:20:57.039,0:21:01.120
at the cloud flare level like at the

0:20:59.440,0:21:04.080
edge which is what's so

0:21:01.120,0:21:05.520
crazy about it you know it's like the

0:21:04.080,0:21:08.559
most

0:21:05.520,0:21:10.480
uh uh efficient way possible like it's

0:21:08.559,0:21:12.480
not even hitting a server it's like so

0:21:10.480,0:21:14.559
crazy

0:21:12.480,0:21:16.240
but right and you don't have to worry

0:21:14.559,0:21:19.200
about like the infrastructure

0:21:16.240,0:21:20.080
i mean it's like it's it is a proxy um

0:21:19.200,0:21:22.000
for you

0:21:20.080,0:21:23.280
but you don't have to worry about like

0:21:22.000,0:21:26.320
keeping the proxy

0:21:23.280,0:21:28.159
running like it's like

0:21:26.320,0:21:30.400
theoretically you could make your own

0:21:28.159,0:21:30.960
proxy and run shopify through that and i

0:21:30.400,0:21:33.520
have

0:21:30.960,0:21:35.360
actually seen that done a little bit

0:21:33.520,0:21:37.440
because that is the solution sometimes

0:21:35.360,0:21:40.880
that retailers get into if like

0:21:37.440,0:21:42.960
i need to do this i can't um

0:21:40.880,0:21:44.880
but that's like once you get into that

0:21:42.960,0:21:46.640
realm it's like oh then you don't

0:21:44.880,0:21:49.280
you have to worry about hosting at that

0:21:46.640,0:21:53.440
point why am i on shopify if i'm

0:21:49.280,0:21:56.000
like managing my own posting

0:21:53.440,0:21:56.799
yeah like you said it just unlocks so

0:21:56.000,0:22:00.000
many things

0:21:56.799,0:22:01.280
yeah are you um are you are you messing

0:22:00.000,0:22:04.080
around with headless

0:22:01.280,0:22:06.640
stuff at all i read this big long post

0:22:04.080,0:22:09.120
last night on this uh

0:22:06.640,0:22:10.880
headless implementation and uh it was

0:22:09.120,0:22:14.799
kind of neat

0:22:10.880,0:22:18.960
um wha what was that so it was on the

0:22:14.799,0:22:21.919
um it was on the elevar uh blog

0:22:18.960,0:22:24.159
um which they a couple of ex blue acorn

0:22:21.919,0:22:27.039
dudes built it's like uh

0:22:24.159,0:22:29.120
it's like a analytics thing it's like an

0:22:27.039,0:22:32.400
analytic sas but they did this

0:22:29.120,0:22:34.559
post pretty detailed post on how they

0:22:32.400,0:22:35.679
built a headless build i still can't

0:22:34.559,0:22:38.640
figure out

0:22:35.679,0:22:40.559
if it was i think it was like a side

0:22:38.640,0:22:43.600
project because it's not like

0:22:40.559,0:22:46.799
part of their product itself

0:22:43.600,0:22:50.080
but yeah they had like a pim uh

0:22:46.799,0:22:52.880
integration prismix cms

0:22:50.080,0:22:53.760
shopify for checkout and they went into

0:22:52.880,0:22:56.559
a bunch and they

0:22:53.760,0:22:58.640
and they specifically talked about how

0:22:56.559,0:23:00.880
when you have shopify extensions

0:22:58.640,0:23:01.840
they'll inject sometimes they'll depend

0:23:00.880,0:23:04.400
on

0:23:01.840,0:23:06.159
things happening in the front end and

0:23:04.400,0:23:08.000
some of them have better apis than

0:23:06.159,0:23:10.159
others so like

0:23:08.000,0:23:12.320
i think they also mentioned the recharge

0:23:10.159,0:23:15.120
uh api

0:23:12.320,0:23:16.880
um and anyways so like they had to make

0:23:15.120,0:23:18.799
sure that they had the api access they

0:23:16.880,0:23:22.080
needed to do things and

0:23:18.799,0:23:25.039
um it was it was cool it was uh

0:23:22.080,0:23:27.760
headless is cool like it just feels cool

0:23:25.039,0:23:30.720
but then it's always like well

0:23:27.760,0:23:31.919
is it worth all that effort like i guess

0:23:30.720,0:23:33.520
it depends

0:23:31.919,0:23:35.120
you know that's always the answer it

0:23:33.520,0:23:36.799
depends but like

0:23:35.120,0:23:39.440
as a developer there's just something

0:23:36.799,0:23:41.440
cool about it you know

0:23:39.440,0:23:43.679
right right i think developers are way

0:23:41.440,0:23:44.320
more enthused about happiness and pwas

0:23:43.679,0:23:47.279
than

0:23:44.320,0:23:49.039
merchants like i'm still trying to have

0:23:47.279,0:23:51.919
the conversations with merchants like

0:23:49.039,0:23:52.960
explaining the concept to them like like

0:23:51.919,0:23:56.240
they're not

0:23:52.960,0:23:56.720
asking for headless yet or pa hey it's

0:23:56.240,0:23:59.760
like

0:23:56.720,0:24:00.159
well they're asking for it in a way of

0:23:59.760,0:24:02.000
like

0:24:00.159,0:24:03.360
almost inadvertently they're kind of

0:24:02.000,0:24:04.080
getting to the limits of like

0:24:03.360,0:24:08.000
performance

0:24:04.080,0:24:10.960
of not being headless or having a pwa

0:24:08.000,0:24:11.840
but they don't know like they just like

0:24:10.960,0:24:13.679
want the website

0:24:11.840,0:24:15.840
they just want it faster yeah they're

0:24:13.679,0:24:18.640
like how can we make it faster yeah yeah

0:24:15.840,0:24:19.279
yeah and like what you said with the

0:24:18.640,0:24:22.640
apps

0:24:19.279,0:24:26.480
though is kind of the issue right now

0:24:22.640,0:24:29.360
um of like once you go headless you're

0:24:26.480,0:24:30.400
in a really really custom route right at

0:24:29.360,0:24:33.840
that point

0:24:30.400,0:24:34.559
if you're on shopify you lose some of

0:24:33.840,0:24:37.120
the value

0:24:34.559,0:24:38.000
of having kind of a plug and play

0:24:37.120,0:24:40.640
platform

0:24:38.000,0:24:41.840
yeah because at that point the front end

0:24:40.640,0:24:45.200
is basically

0:24:41.840,0:24:47.279
totally custom if any apps work

0:24:45.200,0:24:48.720
on the front end you just you have to

0:24:47.279,0:24:52.159
write your own custom

0:24:48.720,0:24:55.679
implementation yeah and so

0:24:52.159,0:24:57.360
like i i i'm hesitant to put merchants

0:24:55.679,0:24:59.919
on a headless solution

0:24:57.360,0:25:00.640
yet until there's more standardization

0:24:59.919,0:25:03.200
because

0:25:00.640,0:25:04.320
it's going to lock them into this

0:25:03.200,0:25:07.520
solution

0:25:04.320,0:25:09.919
for you know a couple years right um

0:25:07.520,0:25:11.039
and it's it i don't think it's going to

0:25:09.919,0:25:12.880
save the money

0:25:11.039,0:25:14.480
yeah maybe it's going to be like the

0:25:12.880,0:25:16.960
fastest bleeding edge thing but

0:25:14.480,0:25:17.840
like it's gonna be expensive to maintain

0:25:16.960,0:25:19.840
yeah that's

0:25:17.840,0:25:21.520
that's that yeah that's the funny thing

0:25:19.840,0:25:24.799
it's it's like

0:25:21.520,0:25:28.799
somehow headless as a as a term

0:25:24.799,0:25:30.240
is like sticky and cool for developers

0:25:28.799,0:25:32.400
but it's basically like

0:25:30.240,0:25:34.080
let's just write almost everything from

0:25:32.400,0:25:37.279
scratch

0:25:34.080,0:25:40.080
like that's like

0:25:37.279,0:25:41.039
that's why they like it developers love

0:25:40.080,0:25:44.240
everything

0:25:41.039,0:25:46.400
exactly i think that's it i think that's

0:25:44.240,0:25:48.000
like as a developer all you want to do

0:25:46.400,0:25:48.880
is write stuff from scratch and it's

0:25:48.000,0:25:51.440
like wait

0:25:48.880,0:25:52.159
now we have like an excuse and like a

0:25:51.440,0:25:55.360
cool like

0:25:52.159,0:25:56.960
marketing term that like lets us write

0:25:55.360,0:26:00.400
stuff from scratch

0:25:56.960,0:26:02.880
like it's like besides the reactor

0:26:00.400,0:26:03.600
right whatever you you want right you

0:26:02.880,0:26:06.720
just

0:26:03.600,0:26:09.360
yeah right like sometimes merchants

0:26:06.720,0:26:10.080
start a conversation with me uh like a

0:26:09.360,0:26:12.400
sales call

0:26:10.080,0:26:14.480
and they're like all right like um so we

0:26:12.400,0:26:18.720
don't want to start from scratch

0:26:14.480,0:26:20.960
is that okay you know explicitly

0:26:18.720,0:26:23.039
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah you're

0:26:20.960,0:26:23.440
like will you take us on as a client if

0:26:23.039,0:26:26.000
we

0:26:23.440,0:26:27.279
don't completely scrap our website right

0:26:26.000,0:26:30.720
right

0:26:27.279,0:26:33.360
right like that's like as a business

0:26:30.720,0:26:34.240
like your num like basically your number

0:26:33.360,0:26:38.240
one priority

0:26:34.240,0:26:40.880
is like not start from scratch

0:26:38.240,0:26:42.159
unless like you you need to for some

0:26:40.880,0:26:45.679
specific reason

0:26:42.159,0:26:47.039
um but like right yeah

0:26:45.679,0:26:48.799
it's like the last thing i don't think

0:26:47.039,0:26:50.880
merchants think about their

0:26:48.799,0:26:52.000
e-commerce is like throwing it away

0:26:50.880,0:26:54.240
every like two or

0:26:52.000,0:26:55.679
three years and yeah starting from

0:26:54.240,0:26:57.520
scratch i mean that's

0:26:55.679,0:26:59.279
i think that's been the problem with

0:26:57.520,0:27:01.360
like magenta one stuff

0:26:59.279,0:27:04.159
is like a lot of merchants has have

0:27:01.360,0:27:04.880
built and invested in their magento one

0:27:04.159,0:27:08.240
site

0:27:04.880,0:27:09.039
for so many years like they they feel

0:27:08.240,0:27:11.919
like

0:27:09.039,0:27:13.120
uh like to get to replace that

0:27:11.919,0:27:14.559
functionality

0:27:13.120,0:27:16.400
is actually gonna be like a really

0:27:14.559,0:27:19.120
serious build because yeah

0:27:16.400,0:27:20.640
it's been like over time they've

0:27:19.120,0:27:22.880
customized it to just

0:27:20.640,0:27:25.120
just how they need it for their business

0:27:22.880,0:27:27.679
yeah and they get a quote

0:27:25.120,0:27:30.559
of like migrating all this logic and

0:27:27.679,0:27:33.919
functionality and it's like oh yep 250k

0:27:30.559,0:27:35.440
you know to go to m2 and they're like

0:27:33.919,0:27:36.799
yeah

0:27:35.440,0:27:39.360
they're like why can't i just stay on

0:27:36.799,0:27:44.480
magento one yeah but you can

0:27:39.360,0:27:46.480
yeah how is the um uh the open mage uh

0:27:44.480,0:27:47.600
bug bounty i think i saw you posted you

0:27:46.480,0:27:50.640
guys are like 50

0:27:47.600,0:27:54.000
of the way there that's cool yeah

0:27:50.640,0:27:54.799
yeah so to have the open um bug bounty

0:27:54.000,0:27:57.600
program we

0:27:54.799,0:27:58.000
have to have like 100 private hackers

0:27:57.600,0:28:00.399
and

0:27:58.000,0:28:01.279
we have over 100 and then we have to

0:28:00.399,0:28:04.480
have um

0:28:01.279,0:28:07.600
10 submissions of bugs

0:28:04.480,0:28:10.240
and we have five already okay

0:28:07.600,0:28:10.880
so five more to go and and then it'll be

0:28:10.240,0:28:14.320
like

0:28:10.880,0:28:15.200
live open to the public so i realized

0:28:14.320,0:28:18.640
recently that

0:28:15.200,0:28:20.960
the um the mage one um

0:28:18.640,0:28:22.640
i guess is a vulnerability disclosure

0:28:20.960,0:28:26.000
program maybe not it's a

0:28:22.640,0:28:26.960
maybe it's not a bug bounty is separate

0:28:26.000,0:28:30.399
from the

0:28:26.960,0:28:33.840
open mage one which i was like guys guys

0:28:30.399,0:28:35.520
why why why especially when we're trying

0:28:33.840,0:28:37.440
so hard to get this one to be official

0:28:35.520,0:28:39.200
and it's on official bug bounty platform

0:28:37.440,0:28:42.880
all kind of stuff like

0:28:39.200,0:28:42.880
why not why not just have one

0:28:43.360,0:28:47.200
there you know there's definitely like

0:28:44.799,0:28:50.799
some uh complications between

0:28:47.200,0:28:53.840
openmage and mage1 uh i mean openmaid

0:28:50.799,0:28:56.880
is totally open source so it

0:28:53.840,0:28:59.919
it's i mean 100 volunteer run

0:28:56.880,0:29:02.880
right um a mage one

0:28:59.919,0:29:03.360
from the get-go um they're they're like

0:29:02.880,0:29:05.360
well

0:29:03.360,0:29:07.039
if we're gonna do this we have to make

0:29:05.360,0:29:08.880
money otherwise

0:29:07.039,0:29:10.640
it's a commercial effort which i think

0:29:08.880,0:29:13.840
is great like

0:29:10.640,0:29:17.039
yeah yeah right

0:29:13.840,0:29:18.240
one like complication and like contrast

0:29:17.039,0:29:22.799
between the programs

0:29:18.240,0:29:25.360
is uh openmage we're doing actual cves

0:29:22.799,0:29:26.960
um like uh disclosures of the

0:29:25.360,0:29:30.559
vulnerabilities

0:29:26.960,0:29:33.919
um and so kind of theoretically

0:29:30.559,0:29:37.360
when we release these packed patches

0:29:33.919,0:29:38.080
um like if you're on magento one and

0:29:37.360,0:29:40.480
you're not

0:29:38.080,0:29:41.840
like fixing these bugs like you're not

0:29:40.480,0:29:45.200
pci compliant

0:29:41.840,0:29:45.840
um because openmate one is back

0:29:45.200,0:29:48.559
officially

0:29:45.840,0:29:49.360
they're private there's private like and

0:29:48.559,0:29:52.880
they don't do

0:29:49.360,0:29:55.840
official cvs oh gotcha wait what does

0:29:52.880,0:29:55.840
cve stand for

0:29:56.080,0:30:04.080
uh critical vulnerability

0:30:01.039,0:30:05.679
oh common vulnerabilities and exposures

0:30:04.080,0:30:07.520
but it's basically disclosing the

0:30:05.679,0:30:10.720
specifics of what the

0:30:07.520,0:30:14.080
what the what the bug is pub publicly

0:30:10.720,0:30:17.279
right yeah um it's like a

0:30:14.080,0:30:19.919
public database um whenever there's

0:30:17.279,0:30:21.120
you know before magenta one and still

0:30:19.919,0:30:24.880
magento 2

0:30:21.120,0:30:28.640
adobe does all the cves for

0:30:24.880,0:30:29.039
magento 2 and basically openmage is just

0:30:28.640,0:30:31.440
kind of

0:30:29.039,0:30:32.320
keeping that going gotcha releasing the

0:30:31.440,0:30:35.360
cva

0:30:32.320,0:30:39.360
for gotcha right

0:30:35.360,0:30:43.520
right right right very interesting

0:30:39.360,0:30:47.600
um i just just want people to be scared

0:30:43.520,0:30:51.360
yeah yeah no that makes sense um

0:30:47.600,0:30:55.919
i was talking to uh merchant recently

0:30:51.360,0:30:59.360
and they were like thinking about hiring

0:30:55.919,0:31:01.760
um like a developer

0:30:59.360,0:31:03.440
and like they didn't have an existing

0:31:01.760,0:31:04.640
developer existing website

0:31:03.440,0:31:06.480
they want to hire someone to do a

0:31:04.640,0:31:08.720
magento site like everything

0:31:06.480,0:31:11.360
like full stack developer plus marketing

0:31:08.720,0:31:14.000
plus seo plus

0:31:11.360,0:31:14.000
and i was like

0:31:14.880,0:31:18.399
i don't i don't know you're looking for

0:31:17.120,0:31:20.080
an agency

0:31:18.399,0:31:22.399
yeah that was that's basically what i

0:31:20.080,0:31:23.919
landed on um

0:31:22.399,0:31:25.600
do you run into that you probably run

0:31:23.919,0:31:27.519
into that kind of stuff all the time

0:31:25.600,0:31:31.519
where like

0:31:27.519,0:31:33.679
the merchant it just they

0:31:31.519,0:31:35.360
they want to hire but it's not the right

0:31:33.679,0:31:40.399
like it's better for them

0:31:35.360,0:31:43.679
to like hire an agency kind of a thing

0:31:40.399,0:31:46.799
yeah yeah yeah a lot of merchants

0:31:43.679,0:31:49.279
when they get into like almost

0:31:46.799,0:31:50.559
being able to afford maybe like 50 of a

0:31:49.279,0:31:52.880
developer

0:31:50.559,0:31:53.679
or even a full-time developer they're

0:31:52.880,0:31:55.120
like well

0:31:53.679,0:31:57.360
if i'm paying all this money to an

0:31:55.120,0:31:59.840
agency why can't i just hire like

0:31:57.360,0:32:01.919
one dude and then yeah totally control

0:31:59.840,0:32:04.960
them one dude to rule them all

0:32:01.919,0:32:07.039
yeah yeah

0:32:04.960,0:32:08.960
the problem is like well obviously i'm

0:32:07.039,0:32:09.600
gonna say this because i run an agency

0:32:08.960,0:32:12.159
but

0:32:09.600,0:32:15.039
um if you it's one dude there's like

0:32:12.159,0:32:18.320
there's no checks and balances yeah and

0:32:15.039,0:32:19.200
uh it's hard to get like that complete

0:32:18.320,0:32:22.000
skill set

0:32:19.200,0:32:22.880
like he said of like we'll run in back

0:32:22.000,0:32:26.159
in

0:32:22.880,0:32:28.640
and knowing seo design too

0:32:26.159,0:32:30.880
um because yeah it's just too much it's

0:32:28.640,0:32:32.399
too much it's just too much

0:32:30.880,0:32:34.240
a lot of merchants that are like i just

0:32:32.399,0:32:35.840
i just want this website you can do it

0:32:34.240,0:32:37.519
developer and they don't even realize

0:32:35.840,0:32:40.080
like they need a designer and

0:32:37.519,0:32:40.559
yeah a ux person like yeah just not

0:32:40.080,0:32:42.799
thinking

0:32:40.559,0:32:43.919
through the full stack yeah they don't

0:32:42.799,0:32:47.279
know what they don't know

0:32:43.919,0:32:48.399
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah i have problems

0:32:47.279,0:32:52.159
with merchants

0:32:48.399,0:32:52.159
like as commerce hero like

0:32:52.399,0:33:00.640
some tacky task

0:32:57.679,0:33:03.279
this is definitely this is definitely

0:33:00.640,0:33:06.720
going on the dawn podcast podcast

0:33:03.279,0:33:08.840
um yeah i don't it's like we don't speak

0:33:06.720,0:33:12.480
the same language

0:33:08.840,0:33:13.519
um reference are from mars developers

0:33:12.480,0:33:17.440
are from uranus

0:33:13.519,0:33:17.440
yeah exactly

0:33:17.600,0:33:22.880
man i do i got to get better at that

0:33:19.440,0:33:26.159
because it's a it's a good sized market

0:33:22.880,0:33:28.000
if i can figure it out but um

0:33:26.159,0:33:29.679
yeah they have different needs and stuff

0:33:28.000,0:33:32.720
so

0:33:29.679,0:33:36.000
yeah there's there's a lot of training

0:33:32.720,0:33:37.039
of like people don't necessarily know

0:33:36.000,0:33:39.600
what they need

0:33:37.039,0:33:41.440
they know what they want yeah but then

0:33:39.600,0:33:43.840
you have to take that and be like yeah

0:33:41.440,0:33:45.120
all right this is the end result you're

0:33:43.840,0:33:47.519
looking for

0:33:45.120,0:33:49.440
this i think this is the best way to

0:33:47.519,0:33:54.159
achieve that end result

0:33:49.440,0:33:57.279
yeah yeah yeah

0:33:54.159,0:34:00.320
it's funny because like i keep

0:33:57.279,0:34:01.919
i keep struggling between if we weren't

0:34:00.320,0:34:06.559
at all recording this

0:34:01.919,0:34:08.960
the stuff i would say and then i'm like

0:34:06.559,0:34:10.879
like it was like theoretically we're not

0:34:08.960,0:34:12.879
recording it but now i'm like i want to

0:34:10.879,0:34:15.040
have something to release

0:34:12.879,0:34:17.119
put that up like i would be giving a lot

0:34:15.040,0:34:19.760
i would be getting a lot more detail

0:34:17.119,0:34:20.560
if it was if it was that recorded you

0:34:19.760,0:34:23.440
could edit it

0:34:20.560,0:34:24.800
very very closely like one of those

0:34:23.440,0:34:27.119
youtube videos where it's just like

0:34:24.800,0:34:27.119
jumpy

0:34:28.639,0:34:31.919
together merchants are amazing yeah i

0:34:31.040,0:34:35.359
love merchants

0:34:31.919,0:34:39.119
yeah he's like wow that is a heavily

0:34:35.359,0:34:39.119
edited video right there

0:34:39.839,0:34:46.399
oh man yeah it's an interesting call

0:34:44.159,0:34:48.000
um i do think that is what some people

0:34:46.399,0:34:51.440
do with their podcast like they

0:34:48.000,0:34:54.399
just like shoot the breeze for hours

0:34:51.440,0:34:54.960
and then that's what someone like edited

0:34:54.399,0:34:56.960
oh

0:34:54.960,0:34:58.400
yeah i've heard a lot of podcasts like

0:34:56.960,0:35:01.359
they record like

0:34:58.400,0:35:02.160
almost two times the amount of audio yes

0:35:01.359,0:35:05.280
like edit

0:35:02.160,0:35:08.480
out boring oh really

0:35:05.280,0:35:10.079
yeah nice i don't know if i've seen that

0:35:08.480,0:35:11.680
i've seen like the ones where they just

0:35:10.079,0:35:12.320
do a long one they just release the

0:35:11.680,0:35:15.200
whole thing

0:35:12.320,0:35:16.480
and it's always the ones i like the best

0:35:15.200,0:35:19.280
are where

0:35:16.480,0:35:19.680
they just you know they s there there's

0:35:19.280,0:35:21.280
no

0:35:19.680,0:35:23.119
limits on what they'll say that's what

0:35:21.280,0:35:26.880
makes it interesting they just say

0:35:23.119,0:35:30.160
whatever you know they're into or

0:35:26.880,0:35:32.079
whatever comes to mind that's what makes

0:35:30.160,0:35:33.200
those podcasts so interesting you know

0:35:32.079,0:35:35.760
but then

0:35:33.200,0:35:36.320
it's like it's tough to do because like

0:35:35.760,0:35:39.119
you

0:35:36.320,0:35:40.000
you know there's certain things you know

0:35:39.119,0:35:43.839
you're like

0:35:40.000,0:35:47.200
more hesitant to say and stuff

0:35:43.839,0:35:48.079
but i think i think the like two people

0:35:47.200,0:35:50.400
talking like

0:35:48.079,0:35:51.920
two hosts always just talking every

0:35:50.400,0:35:54.720
episode not the interview

0:35:51.920,0:35:56.320
one they typically record way more audio

0:35:54.720,0:35:58.000
and then edit it down

0:35:56.320,0:36:00.160
so that they can kind of just be like

0:35:58.000,0:36:02.640
freewheeling like um

0:36:00.160,0:36:04.320
like hello internet uh with like cgp

0:36:02.640,0:36:07.839
gray he's like a youtuber

0:36:04.320,0:36:09.119
oh okay like i know they like record way

0:36:07.839,0:36:11.760
more than they actually

0:36:09.119,0:36:13.520
release yeah and so you like you can

0:36:11.760,0:36:17.200
just kind of say whatever you want

0:36:13.520,0:36:19.280
and then uh if it you you sound stupid

0:36:17.200,0:36:19.839
you have control over the final edit and

0:36:19.280,0:36:23.280
you just

0:36:19.839,0:36:26.640
right right right right right

0:36:23.280,0:36:28.000
yeah my my problem is that since i'm

0:36:26.640,0:36:30.000
doing i do my

0:36:28.000,0:36:32.240
own stuff and i don't really do much

0:36:30.000,0:36:33.040
editing i'm just like ugh on the one

0:36:32.240,0:36:35.040
hand

0:36:33.040,0:36:36.400
it would be so much work to edit it and

0:36:35.040,0:36:39.119
on the other

0:36:36.400,0:36:40.400
if you accidentally leave something out

0:36:39.119,0:36:42.480
then i'd be like uh

0:36:40.400,0:36:44.880
i don't want to like i'm sure i'll miss

0:36:42.480,0:36:48.240
something even if i try to edit it

0:36:44.880,0:36:51.280
you know i i think yeah

0:36:48.240,0:36:53.040
i think the editing is so time consuming

0:36:51.280,0:36:54.560
that a lot of podcasts like they just

0:36:53.040,0:36:57.839
like the free form

0:36:54.560,0:37:01.440
it is man it's crazy how how

0:36:57.839,0:37:04.720
time-consuming it is it's just like

0:37:01.440,0:37:08.000
scrubbing around it's like recorded

0:37:04.720,0:37:12.560
gotta do stuff and click stuff and

0:37:08.000,0:37:16.160
drag some madness

0:37:12.560,0:37:17.119
i'm actually doing i know i know i know

0:37:16.160,0:37:20.480
i know

0:37:17.119,0:37:23.680
that's maybe at some point

0:37:20.480,0:37:26.560
i like the um the the um teaser

0:37:23.680,0:37:28.160
trailer reel that my boy uh stanislav

0:37:26.560,0:37:31.200
did for me

0:37:28.160,0:37:34.320
for the commerce hero podcast together

0:37:31.200,0:37:37.520
yeah nice yeah yeah yeah i didn't really

0:37:34.320,0:37:41.680
put it together yeah he's cool

0:37:37.520,0:37:46.160
um yeah that came out good

0:37:41.680,0:37:46.160
i was pumped he's pretty pumped with it

0:37:46.720,0:37:51.680
do you have any like things you're

0:37:48.640,0:37:54.320
working on in the pipeline

0:37:51.680,0:37:54.800
uh for like you mean like podcast stuff

0:37:54.320,0:37:57.839
or

0:37:54.800,0:37:59.760
just in general in general you know

0:37:57.839,0:38:04.400
what's in the pipeline i don't know

0:37:59.760,0:38:06.720
podcast what is your pipeline um well

0:38:04.400,0:38:08.000
um oh yeah what was the thing i was

0:38:06.720,0:38:12.480
thinking about yesterday

0:38:08.000,0:38:12.480
um for uh

0:38:12.800,0:38:18.640
i already forgot there was some oh

0:38:16.000,0:38:20.720
i was thinking i should do actually it

0:38:18.640,0:38:24.480
related to this call that i had

0:38:20.720,0:38:27.280
basically um they wanted to know like

0:38:24.480,0:38:28.079
what is um how much does it cost for a

0:38:27.280,0:38:30.240
developer

0:38:28.079,0:38:32.560
and then i was like well you might want

0:38:30.240,0:38:34.720
to consider more of a project manager

0:38:32.560,0:38:36.240
that could manage an outside agency you

0:38:34.720,0:38:36.880
might want to consider an e-commerce

0:38:36.240,0:38:39.680
director

0:38:36.880,0:38:41.280
or marketing person and so then i was

0:38:39.680,0:38:43.280
imagining what they need to do when they

0:38:41.280,0:38:45.599
get to the site is they need to see like

0:38:43.280,0:38:47.920
a few of these options

0:38:45.599,0:38:49.040
be like do you want to hire a developer

0:38:47.920,0:38:50.880
and then here's the

0:38:49.040,0:38:52.160
budget you want to have in mind do you

0:38:50.880,0:38:53.760
want to hire

0:38:52.160,0:38:56.000
like a funnel like do you want somebody

0:38:53.760,0:38:57.599
in the us or do you want

0:38:56.000,0:38:59.680
america's in europe which is usually

0:38:57.599,0:39:00.800
what i recommend um

0:38:59.680,0:39:02.400
and then here are the here are the

0:39:00.800,0:39:03.680
budget so you click into that and then

0:39:02.400,0:39:05.040
it narrows down it's like do you want

0:39:03.680,0:39:05.440
this type of person or this type of

0:39:05.040,0:39:07.359
person

0:39:05.440,0:39:09.760
then everybody has a nice tidy like

0:39:07.359,0:39:11.760
budget range for each type of thing

0:39:09.760,0:39:13.119
yeah i was like yeah that's probably

0:39:11.760,0:39:16.160
what i should do

0:39:13.119,0:39:19.200
so i was trying to like a quiz

0:39:16.160,0:39:22.640
yeah the problem is like

0:39:19.200,0:39:26.320
the budgets are kind of dynamic like

0:39:22.640,0:39:28.000
you know there might i mean sure like

0:39:26.320,0:39:29.920
i could say okay if you want a front-end

0:39:28.000,0:39:31.520
developer i could like

0:39:29.920,0:39:33.839
average out all these different

0:39:31.520,0:39:36.640
front-end developers but it's like

0:39:33.839,0:39:37.680
some of them are not that great others

0:39:36.640,0:39:40.960
of them are like

0:39:37.680,0:39:44.079
really really good and i i don't know i

0:39:40.960,0:39:45.440
tend to like i always want to match

0:39:44.079,0:39:45.920
somebody up with like somebody who's

0:39:45.440,0:39:48.560
like

0:39:45.920,0:39:50.079
awesome you know and so it's like the

0:39:48.560,0:39:52.160
awesome person

0:39:50.079,0:39:53.359
like they might be a bit like if i see

0:39:52.160,0:39:55.119
somebody who's really good and they're

0:39:53.359,0:39:56.880
available i get all excited

0:39:55.119,0:39:59.680
but then now next week they're not

0:39:56.880,0:40:03.119
available anymore so it's like okay well

0:39:59.680,0:40:05.760
what's the current price range

0:40:03.119,0:40:06.800
for a certain caliber of talent

0:40:05.760,0:40:10.319
available

0:40:06.800,0:40:11.599
now it's like uh like i don't know it

0:40:10.319,0:40:15.359
changes you know it's

0:40:11.599,0:40:16.720
kind of dynamic so um

0:40:15.359,0:40:19.520
i mean none of these things are that

0:40:16.720,0:40:19.520
complicated too

0:40:20.400,0:40:24.160
it kind of is complicated actually it's

0:40:22.240,0:40:24.880
a little complicated working with

0:40:24.160,0:40:27.200
merchants

0:40:24.880,0:40:28.000
because because like it's a lot of

0:40:27.200,0:40:30.319
psychology

0:40:28.000,0:40:31.440
really like right you could ask them

0:40:30.319,0:40:33.920
whether they

0:40:31.440,0:40:35.119
prefer like fixed price projects or

0:40:33.920,0:40:37.760
hourly

0:40:35.119,0:40:38.640
um right and that kind of changes who

0:40:37.760,0:40:41.839
they work with

0:40:38.640,0:40:44.960
i hate fixed prices same

0:40:41.839,0:40:45.839
yeah i prefer hourly but then also like

0:40:44.960,0:40:49.440
with hourly

0:40:45.839,0:40:51.599
like uh someone could charge 150 an hour

0:40:49.440,0:40:53.359
and they're like four times faster than

0:40:51.599,0:40:55.040
a developer that charges

0:40:53.359,0:40:57.839
seventy five dollars an hour yeah yeah

0:40:55.040,0:41:01.040
yeah yeah hourly rate

0:40:57.839,0:41:03.040
is it's a metric but it's only one of

0:41:01.040,0:41:04.160
a few metrics that are important and

0:41:03.040,0:41:07.760
right quality is

0:41:04.160,0:41:10.400
another metric right right right

0:41:07.760,0:41:12.800
yeah like somebody was asking also today

0:41:10.400,0:41:16.079
about like a performance optimization

0:41:12.800,0:41:20.480
um issue and they were using a

0:41:16.079,0:41:21.839
mage pack which i guess is a um

0:41:20.480,0:41:24.000
i don't know if it's like an

0:41:21.839,0:41:25.920
implementation of webpack for magento i

0:41:24.000,0:41:27.280
just took a really quick look at the

0:41:25.920,0:41:29.280
the repo i don't know exactly what it

0:41:27.280,0:41:32.000
was but

0:41:29.280,0:41:33.440
they were like um they were looking for

0:41:32.000,0:41:34.000
some help and then their budget was like

0:41:33.440,0:41:36.079
60 bucks

0:41:34.000,0:41:38.560
an hour which is like you know for

0:41:36.079,0:41:41.200
developers in like eastern europe or

0:41:38.560,0:41:42.000
south america that's pretty pretty solid

0:41:41.200,0:41:45.040
and um

0:41:42.000,0:41:47.359
yeah so then i looked at the repository

0:41:45.040,0:41:48.880
and like the three main contributors on

0:41:47.359,0:41:50.319
it like one of them was like ivan

0:41:48.880,0:41:53.280
chiperny

0:41:50.319,0:41:54.240
and i was like oh yeah he's in the

0:41:53.280,0:41:57.200
database and

0:41:54.240,0:41:58.800
well he charges like 170 an hour but i

0:41:57.200,0:42:00.319
was like

0:41:58.800,0:42:02.319
that'd be cool if i could hook that up

0:42:00.319,0:42:03.440
you know but like so it's like their

0:42:02.319,0:42:06.880
budget is 60

0:42:03.440,0:42:10.319
but like really quick yeah yeah so

0:42:06.880,0:42:13.359
like i was gonna try to

0:42:10.319,0:42:15.760
hook that up but um you know

0:42:13.359,0:42:16.960
that's the thing is like they depending

0:42:15.760,0:42:19.760
on what you're doing

0:42:16.960,0:42:20.560
a lot of people have a total price in

0:42:19.760,0:42:23.359
mind

0:42:20.560,0:42:24.480
and so that's the thing they say 60

0:42:23.359,0:42:27.200
dollars an hour

0:42:24.480,0:42:27.599
they still have a budget that's yeah

0:42:27.200,0:42:29.520
that's

0:42:27.599,0:42:30.880
that's that matters that's the problem

0:42:29.520,0:42:33.040
with hourly because i

0:42:30.880,0:42:34.400
i'm so heavily into out like i used to

0:42:33.040,0:42:36.000
have a field

0:42:34.400,0:42:37.599
where somebody could put a fixed budget

0:42:36.000,0:42:39.440
and then i just got rid of it and that's

0:42:37.599,0:42:41.200
just hourly but that's the downside to

0:42:39.440,0:42:43.280
hourly is because they put in something

0:42:41.200,0:42:46.240
that they feel is sort of reasonable

0:42:43.280,0:42:47.599
but would they pay for three hours of

0:42:46.240,0:42:49.440
somebody's time who like

0:42:47.599,0:42:51.440
wrote the freaking project and could

0:42:49.440,0:42:52.160
figure it out in like 45 minutes of

0:42:51.440,0:42:55.359
course

0:42:52.160,0:42:55.920
but so then it's like it's just hard to

0:42:55.359,0:42:59.440
like

0:42:55.920,0:43:02.640
figure that stuff out you know

0:42:59.440,0:43:05.680
but uh a lot of psychology

0:43:02.640,0:43:10.400
yeah yeah kind of is

0:43:05.680,0:43:10.400
people people are complicated

0:43:10.800,0:43:16.880
but um i've mostly been excited about

0:43:14.000,0:43:19.359
the podcast lately i've been

0:43:16.880,0:43:20.560
lining up different guests and stuff and

0:43:19.359,0:43:23.839
yeah yeah

0:43:20.560,0:43:25.760
having a good time with it um

0:43:23.839,0:43:27.200
it seems like you're enjoying it a lot

0:43:25.760,0:43:29.839
which like

0:43:27.200,0:43:30.480
people can recognize and like it makes

0:43:29.839,0:43:33.119
for a

0:43:30.480,0:43:33.920
more interesting podcast than like being

0:43:33.119,0:43:36.079
like routine

0:43:33.920,0:43:36.960
like well yeah this is what we have to

0:43:36.079,0:43:38.880
do

0:43:36.960,0:43:40.560
yeah yeah yeah you're like excited about

0:43:38.880,0:43:43.119
the guests and just like talking

0:43:40.560,0:43:43.680
like we are it's like yeah this is cool

0:43:43.119,0:43:46.400
you know

0:43:43.680,0:43:48.880
yeah yeah i'm trying to i'm trying to

0:43:46.400,0:43:50.480
not lose that because like

0:43:48.880,0:43:52.640
i feel like i am and i feel like i

0:43:50.480,0:43:55.839
figured out a way to do it that

0:43:52.640,0:43:58.480
i'm i think it boils down to just

0:43:55.839,0:44:00.079
curiosity like talking to people you're

0:43:58.480,0:44:03.680
actually curious about

0:44:00.079,0:44:07.040
cur curious about um

0:44:03.680,0:44:09.599
and have things to talk about um

0:44:07.040,0:44:10.720
because like a lot of times i'll all

0:44:09.599,0:44:12.880
like

0:44:10.720,0:44:15.280
stress out about this or that or like oh

0:44:12.880,0:44:15.280
i don't know

0:44:15.359,0:44:18.400
um but like if that's there i think

0:44:17.599,0:44:21.520
that's

0:44:18.400,0:44:24.960
like all that matters and stuff and

0:44:21.520,0:44:28.000
so um but yeah you can definitely like

0:44:24.960,0:44:31.040
overthink it and be like oh this is

0:44:28.000,0:44:33.280
this this is not gonna work or this is

0:44:31.040,0:44:37.440
dumb or like you know

0:44:33.280,0:44:40.079
my numbers suck yeah

0:44:37.440,0:44:41.359
i really what i want to do is like get

0:44:40.079,0:44:44.480
to where i don't have to have

0:44:41.359,0:44:46.880
any notes that i go off of at all

0:44:44.480,0:44:48.400
and just riff you know like kind of like

0:44:46.880,0:44:50.880
this which kind of cool

0:44:48.400,0:44:52.640
but it's like it's pretty ner like i i

0:44:50.880,0:44:55.920
do some prep and i get some

0:44:52.640,0:44:58.000
stuff ready because like if you're doing

0:44:55.920,0:45:00.640
a podcast and then like you run out of

0:44:58.000,0:45:05.839
stuff to talk about it's like

0:45:00.640,0:45:08.960
it's like it's the worst yeah

0:45:05.839,0:45:10.480
and then like their twitter like what's

0:45:08.960,0:45:11.839
going on oh my gosh i've told

0:45:10.480,0:45:13.520
yeah i've totally done that kind of

0:45:11.839,0:45:16.400
thing before and then

0:45:13.520,0:45:18.960
try to get stuff on the fly and then i

0:45:16.400,0:45:21.359
look at people that do podcasts

0:45:18.960,0:45:23.040
that just riff and i'm like i look at

0:45:21.359,0:45:24.640
them now and i'm like man that takes a

0:45:23.040,0:45:27.839
lot of skill

0:45:24.640,0:45:31.040
um it's like you don't necessarily

0:45:27.839,0:45:33.520
see it but it's right like

0:45:31.040,0:45:35.599
yeah they also have good guests too i

0:45:33.520,0:45:36.880
think a lot of the big podcasts like the

0:45:35.599,0:45:38.400
people that they're talking to

0:45:36.880,0:45:41.119
are used to having those kind of

0:45:38.400,0:45:43.839
conversations yeah um

0:45:41.119,0:45:46.560
you probably talked to more more like

0:45:43.839,0:45:48.720
developers more technical people that

0:45:46.560,0:45:50.640
are aren't like they're not like

0:45:48.720,0:45:51.200
professional communicators kind of a

0:45:50.640,0:45:54.560
thing

0:45:51.200,0:45:56.960
yeah exactly yeah right that's okay

0:45:54.560,0:46:00.160
right it's not what they're paid to do

0:45:56.960,0:46:00.160
yeah i'm not paid to do that

0:46:04.000,0:46:07.599
the other thing i do all the time

0:46:08.560,0:46:14.720
i mean you could you could

0:46:11.599,0:46:18.160
there's no like physical limitation

0:46:14.720,0:46:20.319
against milling for this time um

0:46:18.160,0:46:22.720
i was like oh the other thing that i do

0:46:20.319,0:46:23.760
now because i'm so used to looking for

0:46:22.720,0:46:26.800
highlight clips

0:46:23.760,0:46:30.079
i spend so much time doing it

0:46:26.800,0:46:32.560
that i will start to think about it

0:46:30.079,0:46:33.520
it's like my brain is go like i just

0:46:32.560,0:46:36.319
thought to myself

0:46:33.520,0:46:37.119
that would be a good highlight clip so

0:46:36.319,0:46:40.160
it's like

0:46:37.119,0:46:42.079
my brain starts analyzing like meta

0:46:40.160,0:46:44.880
analyzing the conversation

0:46:42.079,0:46:46.720
it's like it's very bizarre it's like a

0:46:44.880,0:46:48.480
very strange

0:46:46.720,0:46:50.000
it's a very weird thing what you should

0:46:48.480,0:46:52.480
do maybe you've thought about this

0:46:50.000,0:46:53.280
before you should get a remote producer

0:46:52.480,0:46:57.839
that like just

0:46:53.280,0:46:57.839
listens in and like yes

0:47:03.359,0:47:10.480
to be easier yeah yeah that would

0:47:06.640,0:47:13.359
that would make a huge difference um

0:47:10.480,0:47:15.520
i've thought about that sorry speaking

0:47:13.359,0:47:17.040
of uh billable hours i actually do have

0:47:15.520,0:47:20.640
to go to a call

0:47:17.040,0:47:22.880
okay right now all right man

0:47:20.640,0:47:25.839
that's not gonna pay me to be on the

0:47:22.880,0:47:25.839
phone