0:00:00.080,0:00:03.679
where the netlify founder had a debate

0:00:02.000,0:00:06.080
with the wordpress founder

0:00:03.679,0:00:07.359
i didn't i instigated that on twitter i

0:00:06.080,0:00:08.960
was like tagging them both

0:00:07.359,0:00:11.280
yes come on like we're gonna have a

0:00:08.960,0:00:11.840
discussion about this oh really i think

0:00:11.280,0:00:14.920
like

0:00:11.840,0:00:17.920
any sort of like a right tool for the

0:00:14.920,0:00:17.920
job

0:00:18.820,0:00:28.069
[Music]

0:00:28.240,0:00:31.840
adam how you doing buddy i'm good thanks

0:00:31.039,0:00:35.280
how are you

0:00:31.840,0:00:37.680
good good good doing good so um

0:00:35.280,0:00:39.440
how uh first off uh we're gonna talk

0:00:37.680,0:00:42.239
about micro services

0:00:39.440,0:00:42.879
and you know headless molten all sorts

0:00:42.239,0:00:45.600
of stuff that

0:00:42.879,0:00:46.879
should be super interesting um but uh to

0:00:45.600,0:00:49.200
get things started how's everything

0:00:46.879,0:00:52.640
going you know in the time of covid

0:00:49.200,0:00:55.440
you managing to stay sane um if so how

0:00:52.640,0:00:56.000
you know i guess um surprisingly well i

0:00:55.440,0:00:57.840
guess

0:00:56.000,0:00:59.520
i came back from the us like a week

0:00:57.840,0:01:01.440
before lockdown

0:00:59.520,0:01:02.960
uh here in the uk so like kind of just

0:01:01.440,0:01:05.680
snuck in there um but

0:01:02.960,0:01:06.560
obviously with like e-commerce space

0:01:05.680,0:01:09.040
kind of booming

0:01:06.560,0:01:10.159
in the midst of all the the turmoil yeah

0:01:09.040,0:01:11.600
i guess it's kind of a good thing for

0:01:10.159,0:01:15.119
sort of our industry at least

0:01:11.600,0:01:17.360
um books out to the end of the year yeah

0:01:15.119,0:01:18.880
clients and stuff so yeah that's cool

0:01:17.360,0:01:21.520
yeah it's yeah that's good

0:01:18.880,0:01:22.159
yeah it's uh i think the our industry is

0:01:21.520,0:01:25.040
doing

0:01:22.159,0:01:26.000
well obviously so it's just kind of a

0:01:25.040,0:01:28.479
matter of

0:01:26.000,0:01:29.600
staying sane personally and you know

0:01:28.479,0:01:32.640
like

0:01:29.600,0:01:33.520
not you know not being too how what what

0:01:32.640,0:01:37.040
city are you in

0:01:33.520,0:01:38.799
in in the uk so i am in a small village

0:01:37.040,0:01:40.159
like about half an hour from uh

0:01:38.799,0:01:43.360
newcastle it's called

0:01:40.159,0:01:45.520
rothbury oh okay so in the countryside

0:01:43.360,0:01:47.040
oh that's awesome very very very

0:01:45.520,0:01:49.600
isolated like given this

0:01:47.040,0:01:50.640
yeah we've had like a handful of cases

0:01:49.600,0:01:52.000
in the village and

0:01:50.640,0:01:53.920
yeah i mean that's a lot out of the

0:01:52.000,0:01:54.640
thousands but it's not yeah anything is

0:01:53.920,0:01:57.200
bad

0:01:54.640,0:01:58.240
gotcha right so you're probably getting

0:01:57.200,0:02:00.240
outside a lot

0:01:58.240,0:02:01.520
and or going yeah there's like this

0:02:00.240,0:02:02.640
little sheep in the field behind the

0:02:01.520,0:02:05.680
house and

0:02:02.640,0:02:07.040
nice i love it really really scenic

0:02:05.680,0:02:07.280
place people come here for like holidays

0:02:07.040,0:02:09.679
and

0:02:07.280,0:02:11.760
vacations and things that's awesome man

0:02:09.679,0:02:14.080
yeah we we back up to a ranch

0:02:11.760,0:02:15.920
and so there's cows that will that will

0:02:14.080,0:02:17.200
graze there from time to time and our

0:02:15.920,0:02:19.200
kids get all excited

0:02:17.200,0:02:20.239
and they'll run out there and look at

0:02:19.200,0:02:22.879
the clown and stuff

0:02:20.239,0:02:24.239
my my uh my one-year-old uh he's like

0:02:22.879,0:02:28.239
looks like barring at the sheep

0:02:24.239,0:02:28.239
like yelling oh yeah yeah

0:02:28.400,0:02:32.160
how did when did you how did you decide

0:02:30.640,0:02:35.040
to to move there

0:02:32.160,0:02:35.440
is it like uh so my yes my wife grew up

0:02:35.040,0:02:38.400
here

0:02:35.440,0:02:40.000
so her mum uh lives here still so where

0:02:38.400,0:02:41.200
that's where we currently are located as

0:02:40.000,0:02:42.800
we wait to buy a house

0:02:41.200,0:02:44.480
like actually the entire like housing

0:02:42.800,0:02:46.160
market is tipped upside down

0:02:44.480,0:02:47.920
everyone moving out of the cities like

0:02:46.160,0:02:49.920
all the properties brought up

0:02:47.920,0:02:51.280
so we're kind of waiting probably until

0:02:49.920,0:02:53.360
about april like

0:02:51.280,0:02:54.800
buy somewhere gotcha gotcha i don't know

0:02:53.360,0:02:56.800
what's going on with the housing market

0:02:54.800,0:02:59.760
it's so strange like

0:02:56.800,0:03:00.159
we're in the suburbs and prices have

0:02:59.760,0:03:02.080
gone

0:03:00.159,0:03:03.920
i think they've stayed the same a little

0:03:02.080,0:03:06.319
bit or like i have a buddy that said he

0:03:03.920,0:03:08.000
sold his house like that

0:03:06.319,0:03:09.360
yeah most people are things go like

0:03:08.000,0:03:10.560
within like one or two days we got to

0:03:09.360,0:03:14.000
see one and then it's gone

0:03:10.560,0:03:15.840
yeah yeah it's kind of insane yeah

0:03:14.000,0:03:18.159
so and it seems like overall the housing

0:03:15.840,0:03:20.000
market really hasn't gone down anywhere

0:03:18.159,0:03:22.480
near as much as it should

0:03:20.000,0:03:25.120
based on how heavily the economy's been

0:03:22.480,0:03:27.200
impacted and stuff but

0:03:25.120,0:03:28.239
it's just it's weird it doesn't it's

0:03:27.200,0:03:29.760
like kind of i guess

0:03:28.239,0:03:32.319
i guess it might depend on sort of like

0:03:29.760,0:03:33.920
again like the geographic like locations

0:03:32.319,0:03:35.760
i feel like cities maybe hit a little

0:03:33.920,0:03:37.440
bit harder but like

0:03:35.760,0:03:39.040
at least in the rural rural areas where

0:03:37.440,0:03:39.920
people are kind of work remotely and so

0:03:39.040,0:03:41.040
people are starting to move out of the

0:03:39.920,0:03:41.440
states and realizing they don't need to

0:03:41.040,0:03:44.080
be

0:03:41.440,0:03:44.959
yeah making those intensity commutes

0:03:44.080,0:03:46.400
yeah

0:03:44.959,0:03:48.000
how long have you been working uh

0:03:46.400,0:03:51.040
remotely

0:03:48.000,0:03:53.920
um i guess since like

0:03:51.040,0:03:55.280
april i guess march april yeah oh as

0:03:53.920,0:03:56.000
soon as i kind of go back from from

0:03:55.280,0:03:59.599
boston

0:03:56.000,0:04:00.720
yeah yeah yeah so the boston thing this

0:03:59.599,0:04:03.439
brings us into

0:04:00.720,0:04:04.319
uh the molten acquisition was that what

0:04:03.439,0:04:05.920
that was

0:04:04.319,0:04:07.680
that trip was for so huge

0:04:05.920,0:04:08.640
congratulations i don't know whether it

0:04:07.680,0:04:10.159
should like go like

0:04:08.640,0:04:12.000
backwards in time or whether we should

0:04:10.159,0:04:14.239
like start from the beginning yeah

0:04:12.000,0:04:15.120
i like to just i like to jump around but

0:04:14.239,0:04:16.959
feel free to

0:04:15.120,0:04:19.199
yeah feel free to start you know to take

0:04:16.959,0:04:21.680
it any any direction you want but

0:04:19.199,0:04:22.240
um i saw that you know you built molten

0:04:21.680,0:04:25.520
for about

0:04:22.240,0:04:27.600
seven years and it got acquired recently

0:04:25.520,0:04:31.520
by elastic path

0:04:27.600,0:04:34.800
so huge congrats on that that's exciting

0:04:31.520,0:04:36.800
um and so actually first off i was

0:04:34.800,0:04:38.800
curious about the name molten because

0:04:36.800,0:04:40.479
it's such a cool name but i was like

0:04:38.800,0:04:42.000
how does that relate to commerce or

0:04:40.479,0:04:44.000
headless commerce i want to know the

0:04:42.000,0:04:46.880
origin story there

0:04:44.000,0:04:47.520
um so i used to work at an agency as a

0:04:46.880,0:04:49.919
developer

0:04:47.520,0:04:50.720
like eight years ago i guess uh we're

0:04:49.919,0:04:52.320
working on a

0:04:50.720,0:04:54.720
i'm not sure if you've heard about pyro

0:04:52.320,0:04:57.600
cms we built uh fire sale

0:04:54.720,0:04:59.199
which was like the go-to plugin somewhat

0:04:57.600,0:05:00.720
somewhat familiar

0:04:59.199,0:05:02.400
yeah we sort of like we would work with

0:05:00.720,0:05:03.919
like magento and shopify and stuff and

0:05:02.400,0:05:05.199
we decided to sort of build a plug-in

0:05:03.919,0:05:06.240
for the cms that we were using at the

0:05:05.199,0:05:07.520
time

0:05:06.240,0:05:09.759
and then came across all sort of the

0:05:07.520,0:05:10.560
same problems as magento like building

0:05:09.759,0:05:12.320
an e-commerce

0:05:10.560,0:05:14.000
even even though it was a plug-in like

0:05:12.320,0:05:16.160
the same sort of issues as a platform

0:05:14.000,0:05:17.199
right like maintenance and updates that

0:05:16.160,0:05:19.840
kind of thing so we

0:05:17.199,0:05:20.479
we thought why not the same thing like

0:05:19.840,0:05:22.479
but as

0:05:20.479,0:05:24.080
apis like before like headless was

0:05:22.479,0:05:25.759
really a thing and

0:05:24.080,0:05:28.080
so that continued that sort of fire

0:05:25.759,0:05:29.680
theme from sort of fire sale to

0:05:28.080,0:05:30.800
molten and then also from us from the

0:05:29.680,0:05:31.919
sense of sort of what we sort of

0:05:30.800,0:05:35.120
imagined

0:05:31.919,0:05:37.280
the e-commerce apis sort of feeling like

0:05:35.120,0:05:38.400
in terms of like malleable light lava or

0:05:37.280,0:05:39.440
you could sort of mold it to whatever

0:05:38.400,0:05:41.759
your requirements

0:05:39.440,0:05:42.639
sort of were so yeah cool name it took

0:05:41.759,0:05:44.720
us a while to get there

0:05:42.639,0:05:46.000
together.com but that's exceptional but

0:05:44.720,0:05:48.560
you can't okay

0:05:46.000,0:05:49.360
so but you can't mold lava like you can

0:05:48.560,0:05:51.280
like

0:05:49.360,0:05:52.720
it's like it's like squidgy like malibu

0:05:51.280,0:05:54.880
a little bit you can like

0:05:52.720,0:05:56.479
put it in and then and then and then

0:05:54.880,0:05:57.440
it'll set and it's like rock hard and

0:05:56.479,0:06:00.560
it's like really good

0:05:57.440,0:06:02.319
okay okay okay so i would think of it

0:06:00.560,0:06:04.160
more as like less of lava and more of

0:06:02.319,0:06:06.000
like molten metal

0:06:04.160,0:06:07.680
like if you're a black oh yeah that's

0:06:06.000,0:06:08.160
nothing yeah you bring it into that mold

0:06:07.680,0:06:10.160
whereas

0:06:08.160,0:06:11.840
like lava volcanoes is like totally

0:06:10.160,0:06:13.280
uncontrolled their things are going

0:06:11.840,0:06:14.960
every which way

0:06:13.280,0:06:16.639
uh that is that's really i mean that's

0:06:14.960,0:06:17.680
also like that's a good analogy for a

0:06:16.639,0:06:20.639
star tip anyway

0:06:17.680,0:06:21.360
so yeah yeah it works on many different

0:06:20.639,0:06:23.280
levels

0:06:21.360,0:06:24.479
the analogy works on lots of levels

0:06:23.280,0:06:27.520
that's cool i like that

0:06:24.479,0:06:31.039
um so how did you get so far

0:06:27.520,0:06:34.319
ahead of the curve on headless

0:06:31.039,0:06:36.479
um yeah we when when when molten was

0:06:34.319,0:06:37.360
founded in 2013 headless was like not

0:06:36.479,0:06:38.720
even

0:06:37.360,0:06:40.479
in there i guess it's like you were

0:06:38.720,0:06:41.280
definitely in the headless before it was

0:06:40.479,0:06:44.160
cool

0:06:41.280,0:06:44.720
right it was even like cold headless

0:06:44.160,0:06:47.280
yeah it was

0:06:44.720,0:06:48.000
uh we were looking at like stripe and

0:06:47.280,0:06:49.919
twilio

0:06:48.000,0:06:51.360
at the time we thought like wouldn't it

0:06:49.919,0:06:53.199
be cool for an e-commerce api like

0:06:51.360,0:06:55.520
turning all the ecom platform

0:06:53.199,0:06:56.240
and making it accessible uh obviously

0:06:55.520,0:06:57.680
like

0:06:56.240,0:06:59.120
javascript frameworks and things didn't

0:06:57.680,0:07:01.120
really exist back then you had like

0:06:59.120,0:07:04.240
jquery and stuff there wasn't any

0:07:01.120,0:07:05.680
framework so to speak um but yeah we

0:07:04.240,0:07:06.479
thought it wouldn't be great like to be

0:07:05.680,0:07:08.319
able to just

0:07:06.479,0:07:10.639
to unshackle that front and from the

0:07:08.319,0:07:11.919
back end um and then you could sort of

0:07:10.639,0:07:13.680
we would maintain the back end and you

0:07:11.919,0:07:15.120
could do what you want on the front end

0:07:13.680,0:07:17.120
and that will sort of take away a lot of

0:07:15.120,0:07:18.720
the the maintenance headaches

0:07:17.120,0:07:20.240
whilst at the same time not getting sort

0:07:18.720,0:07:22.240
of as locked into

0:07:20.240,0:07:23.280
uh shopify templates and so you could

0:07:22.240,0:07:26.720
just bring your own

0:07:23.280,0:07:28.400
tool belt basically right um

0:07:26.720,0:07:29.759
and like like surprisingly we went

0:07:28.400,0:07:31.280
through like an accelerator like

0:07:29.759,0:07:32.800
straight off the back

0:07:31.280,0:07:35.520
of sort of founding the company called

0:07:32.800,0:07:37.440
ignite 100 like based in newcastle

0:07:35.520,0:07:38.960
uh and then i remember that accelerator

0:07:37.440,0:07:39.919
we were just building products like we

0:07:38.960,0:07:41.599
were just building like

0:07:39.919,0:07:43.599
imagine three guys from newcastle jamie

0:07:41.599,0:07:46.560
chris and i just building

0:07:43.599,0:07:47.919
like features like like an endless list

0:07:46.560,0:07:49.759
of features but trying to get the

0:07:47.919,0:07:51.199
the product car checkout order sort of

0:07:49.759,0:07:54.639
critical path yeah

0:07:51.199,0:07:56.479
nailed this yeah yeah that was

0:07:54.639,0:07:58.720
and i think it was like it was like it

0:07:56.479,0:08:02.479
was like stuck together with like php

0:07:58.720,0:08:03.919
right right and are you a developer

0:08:02.479,0:08:06.160
yourself

0:08:03.919,0:08:07.199
um i used to be i understand all the

0:08:06.160,0:08:08.720
concepts and all the sort of the

0:08:07.199,0:08:10.080
abstract thoughts behind it so i haven't

0:08:08.720,0:08:11.840
stayed up to date with like

0:08:10.080,0:08:13.039
guys just like jump back from i

0:08:11.840,0:08:13.840
understand what they are and i've like

0:08:13.039,0:08:16.400
dabbled

0:08:13.840,0:08:17.840
yeah yeah yeah i kind of i guess i was

0:08:16.400,0:08:18.319
the most commercially minded of the

0:08:17.840,0:08:20.160
three

0:08:18.319,0:08:21.520
founders all those developers so i kind

0:08:20.160,0:08:23.599
of right went into

0:08:21.520,0:08:25.599
like sales and marketing side right our

0:08:23.599,0:08:29.039
sort of thesis was very much

0:08:25.599,0:08:30.639
i guess a developer go to market so like

0:08:29.039,0:08:32.080
scratch your niche sort of business

0:08:30.639,0:08:33.760
right on paper it all makes sense for an

0:08:32.080,0:08:35.839
agency to kind of just pick up a set of

0:08:33.760,0:08:38.080
apis and then just sort of

0:08:35.839,0:08:39.200
build like whatever the client asks for

0:08:38.080,0:08:41.599
we found like

0:08:39.200,0:08:44.480
trying to like mold like magento or

0:08:41.599,0:08:46.560
shopify to the client's requirements was

0:08:44.480,0:08:48.720
uh like like hitting our head against

0:08:46.560,0:08:50.160
the desk sometimes it was like really

0:08:48.720,0:08:51.440
challenging you end up like tampering

0:08:50.160,0:08:51.920
with some like plugin or something and

0:08:51.440,0:08:53.279
then you

0:08:51.920,0:08:55.279
suddenly like have its own like

0:08:53.279,0:08:57.519
maintenance like yeah path

0:08:55.279,0:08:58.800
yeah multiplying like a hundred or like

0:08:57.519,0:09:01.360
200 and then like

0:08:58.800,0:09:02.399
yeah you're in for a world of pain a

0:09:01.360,0:09:06.080
world of hurt

0:09:02.399,0:09:09.200
yeah yeah i saw the um i saw the

0:09:06.080,0:09:12.000
post on the the winchester house

0:09:09.200,0:09:13.279
um the monolith mansion which i thought

0:09:12.000,0:09:16.320
was a great

0:09:13.279,0:09:19.279
it's a good analogy yeah it's a very uh

0:09:16.320,0:09:21.040
clever uh phrasing and a very clever use

0:09:19.279,0:09:23.440
of the how it started and how it's going

0:09:21.040,0:09:24.880
meme as well

0:09:23.440,0:09:26.640
i love i love me so they feel like a

0:09:24.880,0:09:30.080
good template to kind of laugh it was

0:09:26.640,0:09:31.040
it was perfect yeah uh and when it comes

0:09:30.080,0:09:33.920
to headless right

0:09:31.040,0:09:34.480
like how does a merchant determine if

0:09:33.920,0:09:37.519
they're

0:09:34.480,0:09:39.680
a good fit for it right how do you weigh

0:09:37.519,0:09:41.200
those trade-offs of having to because

0:09:39.680,0:09:42.640
the point of the post was

0:09:41.200,0:09:44.320
you're going to start with this thing

0:09:42.640,0:09:45.839
then you're going to add 15 different

0:09:44.320,0:09:47.760
plugins and then you're not or

0:09:45.839,0:09:49.279
or you're not going to use 80 of the

0:09:47.760,0:09:50.480
features that platform gives you that

0:09:49.279,0:09:51.680
you paid for because you thought you

0:09:50.480,0:09:53.040
might need them and then you're gonna

0:09:51.680,0:09:55.839
need to re-platform

0:09:53.040,0:09:56.640
so like how does how does a merchant um

0:09:55.839,0:09:58.320
kind of weigh

0:09:56.640,0:10:01.040
all those trade-offs right headless you

0:09:58.320,0:10:02.880
get simplicity probably faster

0:10:01.040,0:10:04.560
uh more custom things like that but you

0:10:02.880,0:10:05.839
have to roll a lot of your own

0:10:04.560,0:10:08.959
functionality

0:10:05.839,0:10:12.079
um so how do you think about um that

0:10:08.959,0:10:13.760
that decision in weighing trade-offs

0:10:12.079,0:10:15.440
um i'm like i guess i'm a big believer

0:10:13.760,0:10:17.920
in sort of right tool for the job

0:10:15.440,0:10:18.640
so like a magento or shopify is going to

0:10:17.920,0:10:20.480
be good

0:10:18.640,0:10:22.720
for certain types of businesses and then

0:10:20.480,0:10:25.279
if you think about sort of what they're

0:10:22.720,0:10:25.920
kind of good for um it's very sort of i

0:10:25.279,0:10:27.440
guess

0:10:25.920,0:10:29.279
i kind of call them like cookie cutters

0:10:27.440,0:10:31.040
like this the business is very sort of

0:10:29.279,0:10:32.000
standardized very sort of simplistic in

0:10:31.040,0:10:33.680
some ways

0:10:32.000,0:10:36.000
and as soon as you so begin to deviate

0:10:33.680,0:10:38.480
from that sort of tried and true

0:10:36.000,0:10:40.079
sort of standard like grid based website

0:10:38.480,0:10:42.959
and you kind of start to go towards more

0:10:40.079,0:10:44.800
either experiential type things or if

0:10:42.959,0:10:47.040
there's sort of any sort of complexity

0:10:44.800,0:10:48.640
in the the business model they're good

0:10:47.040,0:10:49.680
sort of telltale signs from where maybe

0:10:48.640,0:10:51.920
headless is a good fit

0:10:49.680,0:10:54.560
because you do take sort of all these

0:10:51.920,0:10:55.920
headless apis off the shelf

0:10:54.560,0:10:57.519
and then you sort of wrapper them with

0:10:55.920,0:10:57.760
some like logic to kind of like get it

0:10:57.519,0:11:00.320
all

0:10:57.760,0:11:01.360
to work together in that sort of

0:11:00.320,0:11:02.880
lightweight wrapper

0:11:01.360,0:11:04.399
you can sort of tailor it to your like

0:11:02.880,0:11:06.880
business model perhaps

0:11:04.399,0:11:07.600
there is also i guess an element of

0:11:06.880,0:11:10.399
technical

0:11:07.600,0:11:10.800
uh competency on the team that is sort

0:11:10.399,0:11:13.440
of

0:11:10.800,0:11:14.160
implementing and selecting the

0:11:13.440,0:11:16.640
technology

0:11:14.160,0:11:17.360
so if it's like a mom and pop like just

0:11:16.640,0:11:18.880
starting out

0:11:17.360,0:11:20.959
like headless is probably not a good fit

0:11:18.880,0:11:22.320
like maybe three four years from now

0:11:20.959,0:11:23.760
like when headless is sort of just a

0:11:22.320,0:11:25.200
behind-the-scenes type thing

0:11:23.760,0:11:26.560
where everyone is sort of powered with

0:11:25.200,0:11:26.959
jump stack and stuff it sort of it

0:11:26.560,0:11:29.519
becomes

0:11:26.959,0:11:30.959
kind of a mute point but like right now

0:11:29.519,0:11:32.560
i sort of recommend like big commerce or

0:11:30.959,0:11:34.240
shopify or webflow or

0:11:32.560,0:11:35.760
something more visual that someone just

0:11:34.240,0:11:37.440
kind of get up and running right

0:11:35.760,0:11:38.880
whereas i guess sort of when you get

0:11:37.440,0:11:39.839
into the mid market and especially the

0:11:38.880,0:11:42.079
enterprise like

0:11:39.839,0:11:44.480
that's where sort of headless and that's

0:11:42.079,0:11:46.959
really starts to sort of

0:11:44.480,0:11:47.839
you benefit from moving that way right

0:11:46.959,0:11:51.200
would you say

0:11:47.839,0:11:52.639
that um so like

0:11:51.200,0:11:54.959
would you say that almost across the

0:11:52.639,0:11:55.440
board then because mid market is like

0:11:54.959,0:11:57.279
this

0:11:55.440,0:11:58.639
this market that like magenta like i i

0:11:57.279,0:11:59.680
sort of come from the magenta world and

0:11:58.639,0:12:02.240
magento is

0:11:59.680,0:12:04.079
all about the mid market and shopify

0:12:02.240,0:12:05.200
plus is attacking the mid market as well

0:12:04.079,0:12:08.639
the mid market is this

0:12:05.200,0:12:11.760
kind of interesting valuable amorphous

0:12:08.639,0:12:12.720
space that um people are trying to serve

0:12:11.760,0:12:15.040
right so

0:12:12.720,0:12:16.639
the mom and pop no technical no in-house

0:12:15.040,0:12:17.600
technical team like i forget about

0:12:16.639,0:12:19.760
headless right

0:12:17.600,0:12:21.360
if you are a mid-market whatever the

0:12:19.760,0:12:24.000
hell that means

0:12:21.360,0:12:25.200
is it fair to say that most of the time

0:12:24.000,0:12:27.440
headless

0:12:25.200,0:12:28.480
could be the right tool for the job for

0:12:27.440,0:12:31.040
you or

0:12:28.480,0:12:32.160
uh you know how should if i'm a

0:12:31.040,0:12:34.079
mid-market

0:12:32.160,0:12:36.240
wholesaler retailer distributor or

0:12:34.079,0:12:37.600
whatever how would you think about that

0:12:36.240,0:12:39.760
decision for them

0:12:37.600,0:12:41.519
i guess it also it depends on what

0:12:39.760,0:12:42.880
you're trying to kind of solve for

0:12:41.519,0:12:44.399
as well so you can kind of do like a

0:12:42.880,0:12:45.519
hybrid approach where you maybe take

0:12:44.399,0:12:47.839
shopify

0:12:45.519,0:12:49.600
and then you do like headless like

0:12:47.839,0:12:51.200
storefront on in front of that and

0:12:49.600,0:12:53.120
you'll get all the like the speed

0:12:51.200,0:12:54.720
benefits for the website loading fast

0:12:53.120,0:12:56.800
in in the same breath you may end up

0:12:54.720,0:12:59.279
throwing out a lot of what makes shopify

0:12:56.800,0:13:00.079
great because you're kind of making the

0:12:59.279,0:13:01.360
trade off

0:13:00.079,0:13:03.200
and so you end up losing some of the

0:13:01.360,0:13:04.880
plug-ins and nice out-of-the-box

0:13:03.200,0:13:06.399
features and functionality

0:13:04.880,0:13:08.959
so that's kind of what one sort of

0:13:06.399,0:13:11.839
approach i would say sort of does work

0:13:08.959,0:13:12.959
um but yeah for in terms of sort of

0:13:11.839,0:13:16.399
trying to

0:13:12.959,0:13:18.560
identify is headless right for me um

0:13:16.399,0:13:19.760
it really comes down to i guess like

0:13:18.560,0:13:20.639
business model what you're trying to

0:13:19.760,0:13:21.839
achieve

0:13:20.639,0:13:23.360
the channels that you're selling through

0:13:21.839,0:13:24.079
obviously the big one like if it's just

0:13:23.360,0:13:25.440
a website

0:13:24.079,0:13:27.680
maybe shopify is okay if you're trying

0:13:25.440,0:13:30.959
to do some more like

0:13:27.680,0:13:32.480
iot voice type thing or uh

0:13:30.959,0:13:34.000
in-store experience that isn't a

0:13:32.480,0:13:35.920
standard point of sale like

0:13:34.000,0:13:37.760
those types of experiences like sort of

0:13:35.920,0:13:39.680
on the edge they're quite sort of

0:13:37.760,0:13:41.440
useful and powerful maybe it's i also

0:13:39.680,0:13:42.800
look at it as um

0:13:41.440,0:13:44.880
i guess so if you look at like the

0:13:42.800,0:13:45.680
shopify checkout it's quite a standard

0:13:44.880,0:13:48.160
process

0:13:45.680,0:13:49.680
if you have any sort of customization

0:13:48.160,0:13:50.560
inside of that checkout that's a

0:13:49.680,0:13:52.560
telltale sign

0:13:50.560,0:13:53.760
so if you're having say like in the us

0:13:52.560,0:13:55.519
for example if you're selling like

0:13:53.760,0:13:58.000
firearms or like marijuana

0:13:55.519,0:13:58.880
or like cbd like medical medical

0:13:58.000,0:14:00.320
companies that kind of thing where

0:13:58.880,0:14:02.560
you're adding verification steps to

0:14:00.320,0:14:05.839
verify someone's identity or something

0:14:02.560,0:14:07.600
or maybe you have multiple participants

0:14:05.839,0:14:08.720
in the checkout it's not just the seller

0:14:07.600,0:14:10.000
and the buyer maybe it's

0:14:08.720,0:14:12.079
there's some sort of assistance

0:14:10.000,0:14:13.040
throughout that checkout process

0:14:12.079,0:14:14.399
maybe you're selling some like

0:14:13.040,0:14:17.120
customized products that requires

0:14:14.399,0:14:19.600
someone like measure or like

0:14:17.120,0:14:21.440
input variables alongside custom name

0:14:19.600,0:14:22.320
engraving on a mug or something like

0:14:21.440,0:14:25.040
that

0:14:22.320,0:14:25.760
i sort of like boil it down to like

0:14:25.040,0:14:27.839
there's like

0:14:25.760,0:14:29.600
there's an axes that people sort of

0:14:27.839,0:14:31.199
exist on and so the platforms are

0:14:29.600,0:14:32.959
applied to that axis of like

0:14:31.199,0:14:34.399
on one end you have speed and that's

0:14:32.959,0:14:36.399
like that's like shopify like

0:14:34.399,0:14:37.839
go really fast and the other end is

0:14:36.399,0:14:40.399
control and that's sort of like

0:14:37.839,0:14:41.680
control like everything about the

0:14:40.399,0:14:42.880
technology and how that applies to your

0:14:41.680,0:14:44.800
business requirements

0:14:42.880,0:14:46.480
and you choose one or the other uh like

0:14:44.800,0:14:48.160
magento obviously exists more towards

0:14:46.480,0:14:49.519
the control angle there's like diy on

0:14:48.160,0:14:50.079
the far extreme where you control

0:14:49.519,0:14:52.160
everything

0:14:50.079,0:14:53.440
which it's gonna cost you uh headless is

0:14:52.160,0:14:54.480
probably somewhere like similar to

0:14:53.440,0:14:56.800
magento in terms of

0:14:54.480,0:14:58.160
maybe a bit more into having to assemble

0:14:56.800,0:15:01.279
things to yourself

0:14:58.160,0:15:02.880
right yeah it's uh

0:15:01.279,0:15:04.320
yeah it's it's a it's a complicated

0:15:02.880,0:15:07.600
decision i think at the end of the day

0:15:04.320,0:15:08.800
like when you talk about um uh you know

0:15:07.600,0:15:10.959
like you mentioned having

0:15:08.800,0:15:12.720
you know sort of a light logic wrapper

0:15:10.959,0:15:14.000
on top of some of these apis to tie

0:15:12.720,0:15:16.000
things together

0:15:14.000,0:15:17.600
um how would you compare i recently

0:15:16.000,0:15:19.199
found out about commerce tools i didn't

0:15:17.600,0:15:21.839
really know anything about it

0:15:19.199,0:15:22.639
it's like massive i mean the customers

0:15:21.839,0:15:27.440
that they have

0:15:22.639,0:15:28.880
are humongous um and i was uh looking at

0:15:27.440,0:15:30.639
some of their api coverage and they're

0:15:28.880,0:15:31.440
obviously like like shopify has a cool

0:15:30.639,0:15:32.720
api

0:15:31.440,0:15:35.680
and stuff like that but it seems like

0:15:32.720,0:15:39.440
commerce tools well they're api first

0:15:35.680,0:15:41.759
and and so i'm curious have you dug into

0:15:39.440,0:15:42.079
the differences between those apis like

0:15:41.759,0:15:44.240
for

0:15:42.079,0:15:46.639
specific projects and like how would you

0:15:44.240,0:15:48.720
how would you compare them

0:15:46.639,0:15:50.560
yeah so i guess i got that sort of

0:15:48.720,0:15:51.519
caveat this week we competed against

0:15:50.560,0:15:55.120
commerce tools

0:15:51.519,0:15:56.639
at moulton in mid 2019 right moved

0:15:55.120,0:15:58.800
away from the developer go to market

0:15:56.639,0:16:00.160
multiple enterprise which is i guess

0:15:58.800,0:16:02.160
where there's more sort of product

0:16:00.160,0:16:02.880
market fit for headless at least at

0:16:02.160,0:16:04.880
least right now

0:16:02.880,0:16:06.560
in terms of maturity of the technology

0:16:04.880,0:16:08.959
right um

0:16:06.560,0:16:10.880
so so i guess like there are differences

0:16:08.959,0:16:12.399
in the like i guess the shopify apis

0:16:10.880,0:16:15.759
were sort of

0:16:12.399,0:16:18.000
designed for plugins for the the wider

0:16:15.759,0:16:19.680
ecosystem to tap into as opposed to

0:16:18.000,0:16:22.000
sort of being api first where you build

0:16:19.680,0:16:23.040
these front ends yeah whatever the

0:16:22.000,0:16:24.720
experience is sort of

0:16:23.040,0:16:26.480
built on top and it's not just the the

0:16:24.720,0:16:27.680
front end is one part of it

0:16:26.480,0:16:29.360
the other side of the api is obviously

0:16:27.680,0:16:30.160
the back office and the integrations and

0:16:29.360,0:16:32.480
the data

0:16:30.160,0:16:33.360
flowing from various different systems

0:16:32.480,0:16:35.519
so

0:16:33.360,0:16:36.880
um like for example like commerce told

0:16:35.519,0:16:38.240
you maybe you would yes you use it for

0:16:36.880,0:16:40.399
like car and check out maybe

0:16:38.240,0:16:41.680
you integrate a pim for example maybe

0:16:40.399,0:16:44.320
you already have a pim

0:16:41.680,0:16:45.839
um you've got more complex needs as a

0:16:44.320,0:16:47.680
larger company you may be managing

0:16:45.839,0:16:48.959
hundreds of thousands of products

0:16:47.680,0:16:50.720
and that maybe shopify is not going to

0:16:48.959,0:16:52.160
scale to that point where you have that

0:16:50.720,0:16:54.320
large of a catalog

0:16:52.160,0:16:55.279
um so like i would say it's not just

0:16:54.320,0:16:57.440
commerce tools

0:16:55.279,0:16:58.800
um when you look at sort of a headless

0:16:57.440,0:17:00.240
implementation you're gonna end up with

0:16:58.800,0:17:01.600
some sort of storefront and you're gonna

0:17:00.240,0:17:03.759
probably end up with

0:17:01.600,0:17:05.360
a search provider like algolia or

0:17:03.759,0:17:07.039
constructor and you're going to have

0:17:05.360,0:17:09.120
headless cms perhaps in there as well so

0:17:07.039,0:17:10.559
you end up with sort of a consortium

0:17:09.120,0:17:12.160
of providers to create the whole

0:17:10.559,0:17:14.240
solution um

0:17:12.160,0:17:15.600
commercials is just one i guess one

0:17:14.240,0:17:16.079
important part of that but there are

0:17:15.600,0:17:17.600
other

0:17:16.079,0:17:19.679
things that kind of create a rounded

0:17:17.600,0:17:21.839
solution right that's one of the guesses

0:17:19.679,0:17:24.240
the challenges of headless is sort of

0:17:21.839,0:17:25.919
orchestrating all those things right

0:17:24.240,0:17:27.919
in terms of guess how you do that you

0:17:25.919,0:17:29.280
don't have like shopify has plugins and

0:17:27.919,0:17:30.559
you have like the liquid templating

0:17:29.280,0:17:33.840
engine so you learn those

0:17:30.559,0:17:35.360
proprietary ways of doing things whereas

0:17:33.840,0:17:37.360
with commerce tools and with any

0:17:35.360,0:17:39.760
headless like pure headless

0:17:37.360,0:17:41.200
api first product you sort of bring your

0:17:39.760,0:17:42.640
own toolbelt so instead of

0:17:41.200,0:17:44.320
right learning a framework or being

0:17:42.640,0:17:44.720
certified in something you just bring

0:17:44.320,0:17:47.760
like

0:17:44.720,0:17:49.039
node.js developers or whatever whatever

0:17:47.760,0:17:49.520
whatever the programming language of

0:17:49.039,0:17:51.200
choice

0:17:49.520,0:17:52.480
is you bring that in and then you just

0:17:51.200,0:17:53.600
maybe you're writing some serverless

0:17:52.480,0:17:55.360
functions

0:17:53.600,0:17:56.799
uh maybe you're doing some javascript on

0:17:55.360,0:17:58.320
the front end it's like very

0:17:56.799,0:18:00.240
very lightweight you can do like a lot

0:17:58.320,0:18:03.360
in like 50 lines of code right

0:18:00.240,0:18:04.240
right right what are um what are some of

0:18:03.360,0:18:06.080
the limits

0:18:04.240,0:18:08.080
on uh like what are some of the

0:18:06.080,0:18:09.919
limitations of shopify as you're scaling

0:18:08.080,0:18:13.120
in the mid market like you mentioned

0:18:09.919,0:18:14.480
if your catalog is too big you know like

0:18:13.120,0:18:15.919
you said something like

0:18:14.480,0:18:17.600
tens of thousands of products i was a

0:18:15.919,0:18:19.760
little surprised that that would

0:18:17.600,0:18:21.840
be hard for but i don't know shopify

0:18:19.760,0:18:24.400
plus very well but i'm trying sort of

0:18:21.840,0:18:25.200
starting to understand better i guess it

0:18:24.400,0:18:27.200
depends on

0:18:25.200,0:18:28.880
it's partly to do with the ui so there

0:18:27.200,0:18:31.280
are ui limitations

0:18:28.880,0:18:33.360
um but it's sort of if you look at if

0:18:31.280,0:18:34.000
you compare like a pim tool and you look

0:18:33.360,0:18:35.760
at like maybe

0:18:34.000,0:18:37.760
salsa fire or pimco or something like

0:18:35.760,0:18:39.760
they've got dedicated interfaces

0:18:37.760,0:18:41.440
where you where your you know your

0:18:39.760,0:18:42.080
merchandising team is basically in there

0:18:41.440,0:18:44.320
right

0:18:42.080,0:18:45.679
like building out the catalog and maybe

0:18:44.320,0:18:47.280
bulk importing things

0:18:45.679,0:18:49.200
and there's like a lot of control inside

0:18:47.280,0:18:50.799
of that right um

0:18:49.200,0:18:52.240
if i can do it but it's like shopify is

0:18:50.799,0:18:54.799
not a pin for sure

0:18:52.240,0:18:55.679
like so it's how many operations you can

0:18:54.799,0:18:58.000
sort of run

0:18:55.679,0:18:58.960
sort of per per second as well if you're

0:18:58.000,0:19:00.559
trying to

0:18:58.960,0:19:02.320
update things like yes you could

0:19:00.559,0:19:03.679
generate multiple api keys inside of

0:19:02.320,0:19:05.520
shopify but then you're kind of like

0:19:03.679,0:19:06.559
working around the apis rather than

0:19:05.520,0:19:08.160
working with them

0:19:06.559,0:19:10.480
right the ends of credit a lot more

0:19:08.160,0:19:13.120
overhead right get stuff done

0:19:10.480,0:19:13.600
right right so yeah that's the part of

0:19:13.120,0:19:16.720
the

0:19:13.600,0:19:18.080
setup i guess tediousness yeah

0:19:16.720,0:19:20.640
yeah it's like the devil's in the

0:19:18.080,0:19:23.039
details on all these things like until

0:19:20.640,0:19:24.559
you've really adopted you know your your

0:19:23.039,0:19:26.400
stack for your especially if you're a

0:19:24.559,0:19:28.240
decent sized organization

0:19:26.400,0:19:29.919
and you've rolled it out to your b2b

0:19:28.240,0:19:30.640
sales reps and your customer service

0:19:29.919,0:19:32.960
team and

0:19:30.640,0:19:34.080
uh your catalog management you don't

0:19:32.960,0:19:35.200
know what

0:19:34.080,0:19:37.200
all those issues are that you're going

0:19:35.200,0:19:38.559
to hit until you've kind of run into

0:19:37.200,0:19:40.400
them you know yeah

0:19:38.559,0:19:41.679
i guess i guess that's kind of one of

0:19:40.400,0:19:44.080
the like

0:19:41.679,0:19:45.520
even even like i kind of came across

0:19:44.080,0:19:46.480
that in my agency days like that would

0:19:45.520,0:19:47.840
be like one of the big

0:19:46.480,0:19:49.600
sort of bottlenecks again getting the

0:19:47.840,0:19:50.400
project like to the next stage of

0:19:49.600,0:19:52.320
development

0:19:50.400,0:19:53.679
even even in sort of headless world that

0:19:52.320,0:19:55.120
is still a bottleneck but at least it's

0:19:53.679,0:19:58.320
more transparent up front like

0:19:55.120,0:19:59.200
you're having to solutionize sort of as

0:19:58.320,0:20:01.120
you go into it

0:19:59.200,0:20:02.640
how is how how these things things going

0:20:01.120,0:20:03.280
to come together and maybe that's not

0:20:02.640,0:20:06.240
obvious

0:20:03.280,0:20:07.520
initially but it becomes apparent really

0:20:06.240,0:20:09.360
really quickly

0:20:07.520,0:20:11.679
you haven't have to talk to each other

0:20:09.360,0:20:14.000
and then and then you kind of get into

0:20:11.679,0:20:15.760
sort of each role in the organization

0:20:14.000,0:20:18.240
sort of mapping to a tool

0:20:15.760,0:20:19.039
yeah yeah where do they live day-to-day

0:20:18.240,0:20:20.880
life

0:20:19.039,0:20:22.320
yeah because maybe they don't even know

0:20:20.880,0:20:24.320
that commerce tools or like

0:20:22.320,0:20:26.000
for molten or whatever exists like we

0:20:24.320,0:20:27.520
had some customers that

0:20:26.000,0:20:29.200
just lived in a pimp and an older

0:20:27.520,0:20:30.960
management system and like the cart and

0:20:29.200,0:20:32.080
the checkout and the front website was

0:20:30.960,0:20:34.960
like

0:20:32.080,0:20:35.440
they didn't need to even know about it

0:20:34.960,0:20:37.440
yeah

0:20:35.440,0:20:38.720
it's for when you're used to thinking in

0:20:37.440,0:20:41.679
terms of a monolith

0:20:38.720,0:20:42.000
uh a monolithic architecture it's it's

0:20:41.679,0:20:43.440
like

0:20:42.000,0:20:45.039
it's it's just a different way of

0:20:43.440,0:20:48.080
thinking about

0:20:45.039,0:20:49.760
uh you know the website and and all the

0:20:48.080,0:20:51.760
interfaces to it that everyone's going

0:20:49.760,0:20:53.360
to have i had a buddy that was saying

0:20:51.760,0:20:56.480
like there's no such thing as headless

0:20:53.360,0:20:59.520
it's it's you have one head or you have

0:20:56.480,0:21:02.480
a whole lot of heads it's a terrible

0:20:59.520,0:21:04.080
it's a terrible term

0:21:02.480,0:21:06.159
i don't know who came up with it i don't

0:21:04.080,0:21:06.480
know why it's so stinky but it's somehow

0:21:06.159,0:21:09.360
is

0:21:06.480,0:21:10.400
it's a sticky term that for some reason

0:21:09.360,0:21:13.600
that people

0:21:10.400,0:21:15.840
like like like like cyclops

0:21:13.600,0:21:16.960
cyclops for the monolith like hydra for

0:21:15.840,0:21:18.880
like yeah

0:21:16.960,0:21:20.559
what is tesla's yeah some sort of

0:21:18.880,0:21:24.159
mythical creatures or something

0:21:20.559,0:21:27.280
yeah um how did molten compare

0:21:24.159,0:21:28.960
to or how does molten um compare to

0:21:27.280,0:21:31.840
commerce tools i know you mentioned that

0:21:28.960,0:21:31.840
you compete against them

0:21:32.799,0:21:36.880
so again i guess early on um well

0:21:35.200,0:21:38.799
there's other internal differences

0:21:36.880,0:21:40.400
so commerce tools is largely based on

0:21:38.799,0:21:43.919
java whereas

0:21:40.400,0:21:45.120
molten version 1 was php we did move on

0:21:43.919,0:21:47.520
peeking to v2

0:21:45.120,0:21:48.720
um and we sort of kind of threw away php

0:21:47.520,0:21:51.280
as kind of the requirement

0:21:48.720,0:21:52.320
he became a consortium of microservices

0:21:51.280,0:21:56.000
internally

0:21:52.320,0:21:59.280
right we had go we had uh node

0:21:56.000,0:22:00.559
ruby like we did have a video or

0:21:59.280,0:22:02.480
did you i don't know if you used to go

0:22:00.559,0:22:05.919
but everybody i know that touches

0:22:02.480,0:22:08.400
just like instantly in love with it

0:22:05.919,0:22:10.080
i kind of like each each i don't sort of

0:22:08.400,0:22:11.520
love oh hate any programming language i

0:22:10.080,0:22:13.919
kind of like like them all for

0:22:11.520,0:22:14.720
their quotes best tool for the job yeah

0:22:13.919,0:22:16.159
so

0:22:14.720,0:22:18.640
yeah sort of again again sort of the

0:22:16.159,0:22:20.240
same repeating thing from yeah

0:22:18.640,0:22:21.360
just from the like a platform vendor

0:22:20.240,0:22:22.880
perspective all the way through to like

0:22:21.360,0:22:23.600
languages it's like whichever one works

0:22:22.880,0:22:24.799
best

0:22:23.600,0:22:27.280
that's one of the reasons why we kind of

0:22:24.799,0:22:29.039
moved from like monolithic php

0:22:27.280,0:22:31.120
like service that we had for our apis to

0:22:29.039,0:22:33.679
more macro services on the back end

0:22:31.120,0:22:35.039
it wasn't just because obviously right

0:22:33.679,0:22:36.080
now for the job and for scaling reasons

0:22:35.039,0:22:38.000
and things but also

0:22:36.080,0:22:39.520
like going to a micro service

0:22:38.000,0:22:41.760
architecture internally

0:22:39.520,0:22:43.600
like we would think about how the

0:22:41.760,0:22:44.640
platform was consumed externally as

0:22:43.600,0:22:45.919
micro services

0:22:44.640,0:22:46.880
so there's a little bit of that inside

0:22:45.919,0:22:47.679
of there if you look at sort of how

0:22:46.880,0:22:50.480
commerce tools

0:22:47.679,0:22:51.919
api is it composed versus what was

0:22:50.480,0:22:53.520
molten i can't really speak to kind of

0:22:51.919,0:22:55.280
what is happening to the multi product

0:22:53.520,0:22:56.720
now first acquisition but

0:22:55.280,0:22:58.400
what it was at least i can kind of speak

0:22:56.720,0:23:00.960
to kind of last year

0:22:58.400,0:23:02.240
um sort of the comp the the differences

0:23:00.960,0:23:05.360
and the similarities

0:23:02.240,0:23:06.159
i would also say um we cared sort of

0:23:05.360,0:23:07.760
very heavily

0:23:06.159,0:23:09.280
molten and we spent spent quite a long

0:23:07.760,0:23:11.039
time in the

0:23:09.280,0:23:13.120
sort of trying to understand and sort of

0:23:11.039,0:23:13.520
put together a good developer experience

0:23:13.120,0:23:15.039
like

0:23:13.520,0:23:17.200
we paid a lot of attention to sort of

0:23:15.039,0:23:18.799
the level of abstraction in the apis a

0:23:17.200,0:23:20.240
level of cleanliness

0:23:18.799,0:23:21.919
um so we every time we had like a

0:23:20.240,0:23:23.360
developer kind of compare molten versus

0:23:21.919,0:23:24.960
commas tools it was very much for the

0:23:23.360,0:23:26.000
developer like yes let's use molten

0:23:24.960,0:23:28.000
because it's like

0:23:26.000,0:23:29.120
i'm lazy and i can just pick this one up

0:23:28.000,0:23:30.159
and it's like really easy whereas if you

0:23:29.120,0:23:31.440
look at the commerce tools docs it's

0:23:30.159,0:23:33.039
going to take a little bit more time to

0:23:31.440,0:23:34.320
kind of get gas and get through things

0:23:33.039,0:23:35.679
but they do have

0:23:34.320,0:23:37.600
you know on the other side of that they

0:23:35.679,0:23:39.039
have more granularity more control

0:23:37.600,0:23:40.720
like especially at the enterprise level

0:23:39.039,0:23:42.480
that's really important where you have

0:23:40.720,0:23:44.400
like all these like tiny little like

0:23:42.480,0:23:46.400
levers that you can pull in these tiny

0:23:44.400,0:23:48.559
api requests that you can make to do

0:23:46.400,0:23:50.080
very tiny specific things

0:23:48.559,0:23:51.600
right whereas we were just sort of at a

0:23:50.080,0:23:53.440
more abstract level so

0:23:51.600,0:23:54.720
kind of pros and cons for both um

0:23:53.440,0:23:55.279
they're both sort of very sort of

0:23:54.720,0:23:57.919
similar

0:23:55.279,0:23:58.960
similar yeah yeah that makes sense that

0:23:57.919,0:24:01.840
makes sense

0:23:58.960,0:24:02.240
in the um in the consulting that you do

0:24:01.840,0:24:05.600
uh

0:24:02.240,0:24:07.279
now it seems like you

0:24:05.600,0:24:09.440
have a pretty good like i want to talk

0:24:07.279,0:24:10.960
about the quadrant that you came up with

0:24:09.440,0:24:14.159
which i think is hilarious

0:24:10.960,0:24:15.200
and and insightful um but it seems like

0:24:14.159,0:24:19.039
you have a pretty good

0:24:15.200,0:24:21.039
grasp on a lot of different platforms a

0:24:19.039,0:24:22.880
lot of people end up specializing right

0:24:21.039,0:24:24.320
they're a magento guy they're a shopify

0:24:22.880,0:24:25.919
person

0:24:24.320,0:24:28.960
and it's kind of like the whole

0:24:25.919,0:24:30.880
e-commerce consulting world is becoming

0:24:28.960,0:24:33.760
more multi-platform

0:24:30.880,0:24:34.960
and learning to you know i guess there's

0:24:33.760,0:24:36.960
a lady

0:24:34.960,0:24:38.960
in some ways i have to diversify like

0:24:36.960,0:24:40.640
i'm speaking to a lot of like agencies

0:24:38.960,0:24:41.679
yeah and even plugins that run like

0:24:40.640,0:24:43.039
shopify will become instead of

0:24:41.679,0:24:45.760
diversifying across

0:24:43.039,0:24:46.080
the platforms yes um that's one of the

0:24:45.760,0:24:48.480
things

0:24:46.080,0:24:50.000
is people are having to diversify for

0:24:48.480,0:24:52.640
one reason or another

0:24:50.000,0:24:53.840
um and it's kind of being forced on you

0:24:52.640,0:24:55.120
know like i know a lot of people in the

0:24:53.840,0:24:57.360
magento community that

0:24:55.120,0:24:59.039
they're like back in the day when er all

0:24:57.360,0:24:59.679
you did was magento it was simple

0:24:59.039,0:25:02.000
because

0:24:59.679,0:25:03.200
you just all right magento agency that's

0:25:02.000,0:25:03.840
what we do like we've got the whole

0:25:03.200,0:25:05.200
business on

0:25:03.840,0:25:07.520
yeah yeah build your whole build

0:25:05.200,0:25:10.000
business on it you got a ton of work

0:25:07.520,0:25:11.919
everybody's happy there's issues but

0:25:10.000,0:25:15.039
whatever you know but so

0:25:11.919,0:25:16.400
um do you specialize in certain

0:25:15.039,0:25:18.080
obviously there's certain platforms you

0:25:16.400,0:25:20.159
know maybe better than others

0:25:18.080,0:25:22.080
um but or are you pretty well-rounded as

0:25:20.159,0:25:24.720
far as you can

0:25:22.080,0:25:26.640
let a merchant know i guess for the i

0:25:24.720,0:25:28.320
guess like for the like the big players

0:25:26.640,0:25:29.840
like i'm kind of aware enough of them

0:25:28.320,0:25:30.960
obviously like seven years in the space

0:25:29.840,0:25:32.480
kind of competing against them at

0:25:30.960,0:25:35.360
various points

0:25:32.480,0:25:37.360
um with multi now sort of go to market

0:25:35.360,0:25:39.520
was very noisy like we just attracted

0:25:37.360,0:25:40.960
generic developers physicians so you're

0:25:39.520,0:25:43.200
competing against every commerce

0:25:40.960,0:25:44.880
platform so you kind of get to know them

0:25:43.200,0:25:46.159
at least a little bit like maybe not as

0:25:44.880,0:25:47.360
deeply as someone specializing but

0:25:46.159,0:25:49.120
enough to kind of

0:25:47.360,0:25:51.520
be dangerous to kind of pick out their

0:25:49.120,0:25:53.520
weaknesses and strengths

0:25:51.520,0:25:56.000
and even even then like if so if someone

0:25:53.520,0:25:57.760
made like if someone like was a good fit

0:25:56.000,0:25:58.559
for shopify and a terrible fit for multi

0:25:57.760,0:26:00.640
we would say that

0:25:58.559,0:26:02.320
like it would be a waste of our time on

0:26:00.640,0:26:03.440
theirs to kind of go down the path only

0:26:02.320,0:26:04.640
for them to kind of get annoyed and

0:26:03.440,0:26:06.400
angry and

0:26:04.640,0:26:08.640
and likewise for us we've like wasted a

0:26:06.400,0:26:10.240
lot of energy you know right

0:26:08.640,0:26:11.919
sort of trial by fire sort of learn how

0:26:10.240,0:26:13.919
we do that sort of process but

0:26:11.919,0:26:15.679
right there's a lot of nuance in the

0:26:13.919,0:26:16.159
space but you kind of do get a good

0:26:15.679,0:26:17.840
sense

0:26:16.159,0:26:19.120
quite quickly like within like two three

0:26:17.840,0:26:20.320
minutes for like if you speak to like a

0:26:19.120,0:26:21.919
retailer or brand

0:26:20.320,0:26:24.240
so where they are on the spectrum of

0:26:21.919,0:26:25.919
like technical competency are they using

0:26:24.240,0:26:27.520
technology as an advantage or are they

0:26:25.919,0:26:29.840
just using it to kind of

0:26:27.520,0:26:30.960
get by and then you can start to play

0:26:29.840,0:26:32.400
somehow you know

0:26:30.960,0:26:35.039
how big is the budget how big is the

0:26:32.400,0:26:37.120
team like are they already using some

0:26:35.039,0:26:38.559
like headless providers or these

0:26:37.120,0:26:41.760
monoliths that kind of thing where

0:26:38.559,0:26:42.640
where do they exist are they innovative

0:26:41.760,0:26:44.240
or are they sort of

0:26:42.640,0:26:45.279
like laggards in the sense of like when

0:26:44.240,0:26:46.400
they pick up technology it's like oh

0:26:45.279,0:26:47.520
they sell this like if you look at the

0:26:46.400,0:26:49.520
interest space are they still on like

0:26:47.520,0:26:50.480
oracle atg or ibm websphere or something

0:26:49.520,0:26:51.760
if they're like

0:26:50.480,0:26:53.360
on that maybe they're beginning to

0:26:51.760,0:26:53.760
consider moving away maybe they're just

0:26:53.360,0:26:55.279
going to

0:26:53.760,0:26:56.350
live on like 20 year old technology

0:26:55.279,0:26:58.720
forever

0:26:56.350,0:27:00.400
[Laughter]

0:26:58.720,0:27:02.080
you know all these variables going to

0:27:00.400,0:27:05.120
play into that yeah

0:27:02.080,0:27:08.240
this kind of ties into your post on uh

0:27:05.120,0:27:10.320
martech's law which is that you know

0:27:08.240,0:27:11.679
technology changes exponentially

0:27:10.320,0:27:13.679
while organizations change

0:27:11.679,0:27:17.360
logarithmically so there's this huge

0:27:13.679,0:27:18.799
gap between

0:27:17.360,0:27:21.440
what's possible technically and where

0:27:18.799,0:27:24.640
the organization is at

0:27:21.440,0:27:27.600
this huge kind of gap in execution and

0:27:24.640,0:27:28.880
um it makes me like as i'm looking at

0:27:27.600,0:27:30.240
that and you kind of had a cool

0:27:28.880,0:27:32.159
variation on that chart where you

0:27:30.240,0:27:34.480
basically overlaid kind of

0:27:32.159,0:27:35.440
web specific e-commerce specific points

0:27:34.480,0:27:38.399
along the

0:27:35.440,0:27:38.880
thing yeah the problems the kind of

0:27:38.399,0:27:41.279
changes

0:27:38.880,0:27:42.640
that drive the change oh vice versa like

0:27:41.279,0:27:43.760
if you if you have like a solution

0:27:42.640,0:27:45.120
before it's time like

0:27:43.760,0:27:46.320
maybe moulton was too early to the

0:27:45.120,0:27:47.200
market and like people didn't get the

0:27:46.320,0:27:49.200
problems

0:27:47.200,0:27:50.320
yeah it became more apparent like

0:27:49.200,0:27:52.559
relatively

0:27:50.320,0:27:54.240
yeah yeah i'm saying you were early you

0:27:52.559,0:27:56.080
were ahead you were

0:27:54.240,0:27:57.919
you were you were in headless before it

0:27:56.080,0:28:00.159
was cool um

0:27:57.919,0:28:01.600
but like as i'm looking at that thing

0:28:00.159,0:28:03.679
and i'm thinking about it i'm thinking

0:28:01.600,0:28:06.000
to myself

0:28:03.679,0:28:06.960
so is the solution basically just more

0:28:06.000,0:28:08.799
startups

0:28:06.960,0:28:10.640
because you know that as the

0:28:08.799,0:28:12.159
organizations age they do this

0:28:10.640,0:28:14.720
logarithmic curve they get

0:28:12.159,0:28:15.279
sort of stale and they sort of they sort

0:28:14.720,0:28:17.039
of

0:28:15.279,0:28:18.880
are stuck in their ways and i'm thinking

0:28:17.039,0:28:20.960
okay so what's the opposite of that

0:28:18.880,0:28:22.000
the opposite as a is a startup because

0:28:20.960,0:28:25.120
it's new

0:28:22.000,0:28:25.840
so it starts at whatever point of that

0:28:25.120,0:28:29.360
tech curve

0:28:25.840,0:28:29.360
right it starts sort of at the top

0:28:35.039,0:28:38.640
some of those like they've been burnt by

0:28:36.880,0:28:40.399
shopify or magento or whatever in the

0:28:38.640,0:28:42.320
past and they're kind of starting

0:28:40.399,0:28:44.880
further up the curve right so what it

0:28:42.320,0:28:46.159
put up for one reason or another um

0:28:44.880,0:28:47.360
and that's that's great obviously

0:28:46.159,0:28:48.159
they're trying to maintain the velocity

0:28:47.360,0:28:50.480
and technology

0:28:48.159,0:28:51.840
changes and again so it reminds me i

0:28:50.480,0:28:52.799
don't know if you saw like the the text

0:28:51.840,0:28:55.360
sort of alongside

0:28:52.799,0:28:56.240
sort of the amazon jeff bezos mentality

0:28:55.360,0:28:58.159
which is like

0:28:56.240,0:28:59.600
every day is day one or day zero or

0:28:58.159,0:29:00.960
whatever it is and you have to

0:28:59.600,0:29:01.679
constantly be reinventing yourself to

0:29:00.960,0:29:04.000
kind of

0:29:01.679,0:29:05.600
not have that like like flattening curve

0:29:04.000,0:29:06.640
like yeah organizational change you're

0:29:05.600,0:29:09.840
trying to kind of keep

0:29:06.640,0:29:12.880
pace with what's happening yeah with the

0:29:09.840,0:29:14.159
technology changes right and what like

0:29:12.880,0:29:16.960
so what do you tell

0:29:14.159,0:29:17.600
a company that let's say a retailer that

0:29:16.960,0:29:19.440
has

0:29:17.600,0:29:21.360
i don't know 50 or 100 people something

0:29:19.440,0:29:22.399
like that they've been in business for a

0:29:21.360,0:29:24.399
while

0:29:22.399,0:29:26.399
and you show them this curve or you're

0:29:24.399,0:29:28.080
talking about technology decisions

0:29:26.399,0:29:31.279
related to the curve

0:29:28.080,0:29:33.279
like what do you what do you tell them

0:29:31.279,0:29:34.799
i guess i guess the curve is relatively

0:29:33.279,0:29:36.000
new like swinging i've only

0:29:34.799,0:29:38.159
sort of had it published like a couple

0:29:36.000,0:29:39.279
weeks uh before that i didn't have a

0:29:38.159,0:29:41.200
visualization

0:29:39.279,0:29:43.279
so it was more it was a good tool i

0:29:41.200,0:29:44.640
guess it's a tool that helps you

0:29:43.279,0:29:46.159
kind of put it in front of their face

0:29:44.640,0:29:46.799
and it's like not even it's not just me

0:29:46.159,0:29:48.559
it's like

0:29:46.799,0:29:49.760
it's multi-cloud it's like a thing like

0:29:48.559,0:29:51.039
you can go to like a whole website and

0:29:49.760,0:29:52.320
learn about it if you want like it's a

0:29:51.039,0:29:54.320
lot

0:29:52.320,0:29:56.399
yeah just adam's like echo chamber or

0:29:54.320,0:29:57.760
something and this is like a wider it's

0:29:56.399,0:30:00.399
wider than you see it's bigger than

0:29:57.760,0:30:04.000
e-commerce like yeah software technology

0:30:00.399,0:30:06.480
as a whole um but yeah

0:30:04.000,0:30:08.240
malting we would sort of try to i guess

0:30:06.480,0:30:09.679
piece together kind of where they're at

0:30:08.240,0:30:11.360
in terms of like how quickly can they

0:30:09.679,0:30:12.480
move how agile are they as a team

0:30:11.360,0:30:14.960
like to make decisions and actually

0:30:12.480,0:30:15.919
implement them um and then sort of again

0:30:14.960,0:30:18.080
sort of

0:30:15.919,0:30:19.120
it's very easy to measure website

0:30:18.080,0:30:20.559
performance

0:30:19.120,0:30:22.159
you can go in and you can like load up

0:30:20.559,0:30:24.000
the page speed and google lighthouse and

0:30:22.159,0:30:26.080
see how quickly something's loading

0:30:24.000,0:30:27.840
or not there's also that's kind of a

0:30:26.080,0:30:28.960
hard number there's also qualitatively

0:30:27.840,0:30:31.520
you can sort of look as well

0:30:28.960,0:30:32.320
sort of visually how how how quick is

0:30:31.520,0:30:34.159
the page there's

0:30:32.320,0:30:35.679
that sort of that's what google measures

0:30:34.159,0:30:37.600
like right now like i'm looking forward

0:30:35.679,0:30:38.240
to when google is measuring carts and

0:30:37.600,0:30:40.799
checkout

0:30:38.240,0:30:42.399
like speeds as well like it seems like

0:30:40.799,0:30:43.679
the the performance metrics

0:30:42.399,0:30:45.600
get you so far and then they kind of

0:30:43.679,0:30:47.279
stop like i wanted like

0:30:45.600,0:30:49.600
when i go to a shopify checkout it's

0:30:47.279,0:30:50.960
like slow and i'm like why is it so slow

0:30:49.600,0:30:52.480
like it shouldn't take like three

0:30:50.960,0:30:53.600
seconds to load like a checkout page for

0:30:52.480,0:30:56.799
whatever reason

0:30:53.600,0:30:59.279
yeah um like that's kind of like

0:30:56.799,0:31:00.240
are you a fan of the fast the fastest

0:30:59.279,0:31:02.320
yes yeah

0:31:00.240,0:31:03.919
definitely definitely a fan of fast and

0:31:02.320,0:31:04.320
i see it as sort of a spectrum so like i

0:31:03.919,0:31:06.000
haven't

0:31:04.320,0:31:08.240
obviously had a lot of time just to

0:31:06.000,0:31:10.480
think since the acquisition so

0:31:08.240,0:31:12.399
um that's sort of helped me sort of i've

0:31:10.480,0:31:15.360
got like a spectrum of like platforms

0:31:12.399,0:31:16.480
as well from like like a platform to a

0:31:15.360,0:31:18.799
service and then there's

0:31:16.480,0:31:20.720
add-ons and widgets versus like a full

0:31:18.799,0:31:23.440
blown like feature set

0:31:20.720,0:31:24.799
um so yeah there's like the there exists

0:31:23.440,0:31:25.519
a spectrum as well in terms of what

0:31:24.799,0:31:26.720
e-commerce

0:31:25.519,0:31:28.799
providers and there are things that

0:31:26.720,0:31:30.880
don't exist yet that's all i would say

0:31:28.799,0:31:32.080
i don't know that i have the energy to

0:31:30.880,0:31:33.440
to build them but

0:31:32.080,0:31:35.840
sort of from the experience of sort of

0:31:33.440,0:31:38.720
why why people chose

0:31:35.840,0:31:39.840
uh molten like they maybe thought they

0:31:38.720,0:31:41.200
were choosing an e-commerce platform and

0:31:39.840,0:31:43.120
then realized like later on that it was

0:31:41.200,0:31:44.320
a carton checkout service that they were

0:31:43.120,0:31:46.799
they were buying and they were doing a

0:31:44.320,0:31:47.679
lot of stuff in code to customize around

0:31:46.799,0:31:51.760
it

0:31:47.679,0:31:55.120
um so you can in my head it was like

0:31:51.760,0:31:56.960
fast and um bolt a very like streamlined

0:31:55.120,0:31:58.080
like self-checkouts for that 80

0:31:56.960,0:32:00.159
of the use cases with a very

0:31:58.080,0:32:02.320
standardized i would say

0:32:00.159,0:32:03.360
people chose molten for the other 20 and

0:32:02.320,0:32:04.320
that's probably the reason why they

0:32:03.360,0:32:06.880
choose magento

0:32:04.320,0:32:08.399
as well in terms of that customization

0:32:06.880,0:32:11.039
and right now that's in code and i think

0:32:08.399,0:32:12.880
that that's going to

0:32:11.039,0:32:14.399
become like the barrier to entry is

0:32:12.880,0:32:16.399
going to become a lot less

0:32:14.399,0:32:18.000
as we see sort of no code and low code

0:32:16.399,0:32:20.000
interfaces applied on top

0:32:18.000,0:32:22.240
so you kind of get because we would see

0:32:20.000,0:32:23.679
that sort of the same process sometimes

0:32:22.240,0:32:25.440
headless implementation would take two

0:32:23.679,0:32:26.480
weeks and they kind of go live like

0:32:25.440,0:32:28.240
super quickly

0:32:26.480,0:32:29.679
from scratch from like nothing other

0:32:28.240,0:32:30.159
times it takes six months and a lot of

0:32:29.679,0:32:32.720
that

0:32:30.159,0:32:33.919
like is taken up by integrations that it

0:32:32.720,0:32:35.279
could be out of the box

0:32:33.919,0:32:37.039
like in terms of just turning things on

0:32:35.279,0:32:40.640
like they're very still standardized

0:32:37.039,0:32:42.720
it would be the the last like 10 15 20

0:32:40.640,0:32:44.159
would be the customization part so

0:32:42.720,0:32:45.279
there's 80 percent of the work that can

0:32:44.159,0:32:47.440
be done

0:32:45.279,0:32:48.480
like very quickly it just needs to be

0:32:47.440,0:32:50.080
productized and

0:32:48.480,0:32:51.840
have an interface put on top of it then

0:32:50.080,0:32:55.919
you can just like click a few buttons

0:32:51.840,0:32:56.640
yeah um right now yeah that makes a lot

0:32:55.919,0:32:59.120
of sense

0:32:56.640,0:33:00.320
um by the way you're a little off-center

0:32:59.120,0:33:01.519
if you go a little more center in the

0:33:00.320,0:33:04.399
video yeah thanks

0:33:01.519,0:33:06.000
but um it's uh it's funny because like

0:33:04.399,0:33:09.039
one of those trade-offs with headless

0:33:06.000,0:33:10.480
is how uh you're giving yourself

0:33:09.039,0:33:12.320
more work right maybe you got to create

0:33:10.480,0:33:13.760
a custom front end or whatever but

0:33:12.320,0:33:16.159
it's kind of like the vision the picture

0:33:13.760,0:33:18.640
you're painting is more one of

0:33:16.159,0:33:19.840
uh low code kind of orchestration of a

0:33:18.640,0:33:20.960
lot of different things so you can

0:33:19.840,0:33:24.320
create something very

0:33:20.960,0:33:27.519
unique um it kind of best of all worlds

0:33:24.320,0:33:28.240
with without um having to reinvent the

0:33:27.519,0:33:30.399
whole wheel

0:33:28.240,0:33:32.000
seven times over uh he kind of it kind

0:33:30.399,0:33:33.279
of brings you back around to that point

0:33:32.000,0:33:34.880
you made about like

0:33:33.279,0:33:36.480
all these like startups like in on the

0:33:34.880,0:33:37.360
vendor on the on the retail and brand

0:33:36.480,0:33:38.320
side it's the same thing for the

0:33:37.360,0:33:39.360
software side

0:33:38.320,0:33:41.360
and it feels like there's going to be

0:33:39.360,0:33:42.480
like something that comes along and ties

0:33:41.360,0:33:43.840
everything back together again so

0:33:42.480,0:33:45.600
instead of having like a commerce it's

0:33:43.840,0:33:46.640
like suite or platform you end up like a

0:33:45.600,0:33:49.600
commerce stack

0:33:46.640,0:33:50.960
basically this is it's a nuance uh maybe

0:33:49.600,0:33:52.000
they end up being acquired and someone

0:33:50.960,0:33:54.799
swallows everyone up

0:33:52.000,0:33:56.880
like that might happen and if it happens

0:33:54.799,0:33:59.120
you may end up losing some of that

0:33:56.880,0:34:00.399
flexibility that made the stack great

0:33:59.120,0:34:01.919
and you end up with the street again but

0:34:00.399,0:34:03.679
very rigid thing

0:34:01.919,0:34:05.039
um but i i really like that sort of

0:34:03.679,0:34:07.519
ecosystem approach

0:34:05.039,0:34:09.520
yeah i actually created this website

0:34:07.519,0:34:10.639
commerce stack dot io i think it's been

0:34:09.520,0:34:12.960
like six months

0:34:10.639,0:34:14.240
but it was basically the idea was for

0:34:12.960,0:34:16.480
merchants it's it's like

0:34:14.240,0:34:18.639
built with sort of but specific to

0:34:16.480,0:34:20.480
e-commerce where people can share

0:34:18.639,0:34:22.320
what they're kind of commerce stack is

0:34:20.480,0:34:23.520
in terms of whatever plug-ins platforms

0:34:22.320,0:34:26.399
things they use

0:34:23.520,0:34:27.839
um and then like agencies also to be

0:34:26.399,0:34:29.919
able to show

0:34:27.839,0:34:31.200
which that you know which parts and

0:34:29.919,0:34:32.639
pieces of the stack is it

0:34:31.200,0:34:34.320
is it like visual do you have like

0:34:32.639,0:34:34.879
diagrams that get generated out of the

0:34:34.320,0:34:36.639
background

0:34:34.879,0:34:38.639
there's no there's no diagrams nothing

0:34:36.639,0:34:40.320
near the level

0:34:38.639,0:34:42.639
like that's how we still have lessons

0:34:40.320,0:34:44.000
literally like people can't see it so

0:34:42.639,0:34:45.760
you have to draw a picture

0:34:44.000,0:34:47.520
and like you have tracked away like some

0:34:45.760,0:34:49.040
of the integrations and the

0:34:47.520,0:34:51.040
apis but you just have like all the

0:34:49.040,0:34:52.960
logos on the page right that's basically

0:34:51.040,0:34:56.000
what it was it was logo

0:34:52.960,0:34:58.400
yeah it's just logos um

0:34:56.000,0:35:00.400
and i like the i like the content you're

0:34:58.400,0:35:03.520
putting out like with the

0:35:00.400,0:35:05.680
uh the commerce magic roundabout um

0:35:03.520,0:35:06.800
and also like the martex law like i like

0:35:05.680,0:35:08.560
how

0:35:06.800,0:35:10.000
you're putting out you know everybody's

0:35:08.560,0:35:11.520
doing different types of content

0:35:10.000,0:35:13.280
and i like what you're doing because

0:35:11.520,0:35:16.480
it's like

0:35:13.280,0:35:19.680
it's not just uh it's like you're uh

0:35:16.480,0:35:21.680
you are like uh tying things into

0:35:19.680,0:35:23.680
you know like the laws or tying into the

0:35:21.680,0:35:25.200
quad the quadrant like you're doing

0:35:23.680,0:35:28.720
stuff that's a little

0:35:25.200,0:35:30.960
a little deeper right than just you know

0:35:28.720,0:35:31.920
some conversion rate chart that's going

0:35:30.960,0:35:33.680
up and to the right

0:35:31.920,0:35:35.520
or something like a conversion rate or

0:35:33.680,0:35:35.839
like just like a feature comparison or

0:35:35.520,0:35:39.359
like

0:35:35.839,0:35:39.920
yeah it's like stale it's like that's

0:35:39.359,0:35:41.440
not yeah

0:35:39.920,0:35:43.680
people get soaked into like feature

0:35:41.440,0:35:46.560
comparisons and all this like

0:35:43.680,0:35:47.359
optimization comparisons are hilarious

0:35:46.560,0:35:50.400
right because

0:35:47.359,0:35:52.640
you're all they're always so bi they're

0:35:50.400,0:35:56.160
almost always comically biased

0:35:52.640,0:35:58.960
in favor of the company creating it

0:35:56.160,0:36:00.160
you know it's it's like it's just funny

0:35:58.960,0:36:02.800
you know

0:36:00.160,0:36:03.920
um i remember we we did one of those

0:36:02.800,0:36:06.640
once and then we got it wrong and we're

0:36:03.920,0:36:08.079
like okay like let's just take it down

0:36:06.640,0:36:09.359
it's like we're fighting a losing battle

0:36:08.079,0:36:10.839
there's like we've got ten engineers

0:36:09.359,0:36:14.320
against like hundreds

0:36:10.839,0:36:15.599
right what do you mean you got it wrong

0:36:14.320,0:36:17.040
like we i think we like i think it was

0:36:15.599,0:36:18.640
like we were comparing various like

0:36:17.040,0:36:19.680
e-commerce like widgets or something and

0:36:18.640,0:36:22.079
then like

0:36:19.680,0:36:23.599
we got called out it was like ah okay oh

0:36:22.079,0:36:25.119
yeah yeah

0:36:23.599,0:36:26.960
you can't know everything to like that

0:36:25.119,0:36:29.599
level of like detail right

0:36:26.960,0:36:30.640
right so the commerce magic roundabout

0:36:29.599,0:36:31.839
looks super interesting kind of

0:36:30.640,0:36:34.720
hilarious

0:36:31.839,0:36:36.720
um i've started to see like i've started

0:36:34.720,0:36:38.960
to see with the magic quadrant

0:36:36.720,0:36:40.560
that the platforms that are winning in

0:36:38.960,0:36:43.119
the magic quadrant

0:36:40.560,0:36:44.160
are like a negative indicator right now

0:36:43.119,0:36:46.800
to me

0:36:44.160,0:36:48.480
it's like i mean like i don't know if i

0:36:46.800,0:36:51.119
don't know if you read the post

0:36:48.480,0:36:51.599
uh they kind of look like linked to that

0:36:51.119,0:36:54.000
but

0:36:51.599,0:36:55.440
it kind of talks about uh how some of

0:36:54.000,0:36:57.680
the some of the vendors kind of

0:36:55.440,0:36:59.200
like passed their prime like as like yes

0:36:57.680,0:36:59.760
they're leaders in terms of market share

0:36:59.200,0:37:01.599
perhaps

0:36:59.760,0:37:03.440
but in terms of sort of product vision

0:37:01.599,0:37:04.720
and execution capabilities like their

0:37:03.440,0:37:06.160
team has

0:37:04.720,0:37:08.000
sort of waned maybe they've left them

0:37:06.160,0:37:10.480
like gone elsewhere or like they're just

0:37:08.000,0:37:11.440
like kind of yeah they kind of again the

0:37:10.480,0:37:12.720
organizational like

0:37:11.440,0:37:14.720
chart kind of comes into play a little

0:37:12.720,0:37:18.160
bit like they become very difficult

0:37:14.720,0:37:19.760
they're like like giant like tankers

0:37:18.160,0:37:21.520
like all tankers that don't

0:37:19.760,0:37:23.520
yeah like it's very difficult to steer

0:37:21.520,0:37:26.000
one once it's got that sort of scale

0:37:23.520,0:37:27.920
so how do you kind of make that change

0:37:26.000,0:37:29.280
and stay relevant like you see like

0:37:27.920,0:37:31.680
i look to like magento like over the

0:37:29.280,0:37:33.119
past like three four five years

0:37:31.680,0:37:34.320
i'm just like looking at the technology

0:37:33.119,0:37:34.800
decisions that they're making and then

0:37:34.320,0:37:36.800
they can

0:37:34.800,0:37:38.640
kind of get stuck with them like yeah

0:37:36.800,0:37:39.520
even when like like knockout js and that

0:37:38.640,0:37:41.280
kind of thing it's like

0:37:39.520,0:37:43.280
why are they using these things it's

0:37:41.280,0:37:44.720
like a curse it's it's like

0:37:43.280,0:37:46.640
they do the best they can and they're

0:37:44.720,0:37:48.880
like cursed to pick

0:37:46.640,0:37:50.079
exact you know it was prototype js for

0:37:48.880,0:37:51.839
m1 and

0:37:50.079,0:37:53.920
now it's knockout and it's like they're

0:37:51.839,0:37:55.359
always picking the wrong thing

0:37:53.920,0:37:56.800
you kind of kind of place the bet and

0:37:55.359,0:37:58.000
then if you're wrong and like you kind

0:37:56.800,0:38:00.079
of scared yourself

0:37:58.000,0:38:01.599
right and then it's also a speed thing

0:38:00.079,0:38:03.359
too because like

0:38:01.599,0:38:04.880
you can place a bet and then hope that

0:38:03.359,0:38:07.440
you're right in four years

0:38:04.880,0:38:09.520
or you can just iterate faster than that

0:38:07.440,0:38:12.640
like and that which is probably kind of

0:38:09.520,0:38:14.320
the way to go um the crevice or crevasse

0:38:12.640,0:38:17.040
of carelessness

0:38:14.320,0:38:19.839
uh i thought was was some good

0:38:17.040,0:38:19.839
copywriting

0:38:20.240,0:38:24.480
yeah it was it was good and it and it

0:38:22.960,0:38:26.880
did sting a little bit

0:38:24.480,0:38:28.720
uh as somebody that's been you know deep

0:38:26.880,0:38:32.000
in the magento ecosystem but

0:38:28.720,0:38:34.480
i it feels true like it feels

0:38:32.000,0:38:35.839
i have to say that it feels true what

0:38:34.480,0:38:38.720
would your advice

0:38:35.839,0:38:39.920
be to uh to the magento team if you

0:38:38.720,0:38:44.400
could give them

0:38:39.920,0:38:46.720
some advice well that's a that's a tough

0:38:44.400,0:38:46.720
question

0:38:58.800,0:39:02.400
you don't need like hundreds of

0:38:59.839,0:39:04.320
developers you need 10 to 20 people

0:39:02.400,0:39:06.000
and just like go fully into like

0:39:04.320,0:39:08.960
headless like micro services api

0:39:06.000,0:39:11.680
just give it just get like your 10 top

0:39:08.960,0:39:13.839
people and just start fresh

0:39:11.680,0:39:15.520
is that like a separate just separate

0:39:13.839,0:39:17.119
because if you kind of get sucked into

0:39:15.520,0:39:19.680
sort of the existing like

0:39:17.119,0:39:21.119
team and like business processes and

0:39:19.680,0:39:22.800
structures that are in place and the old

0:39:21.119,0:39:23.599
charts and everything else like

0:39:22.800,0:39:26.560
you know you're not going to get

0:39:23.599,0:39:28.160
anywhere fast enough you know

0:39:26.560,0:39:30.000
they get nibbled away from everywhere

0:39:28.160,0:39:32.400
and like who's gonna

0:39:30.000,0:39:34.320
get by a thousand cuts yeah that's an

0:39:32.400,0:39:36.160
interesting one because that ties back

0:39:34.320,0:39:39.520
into that martech's law graph

0:39:36.160,0:39:42.640
and the conclusion being startups

0:39:39.520,0:39:44.160
like basically you just said we had to

0:39:42.640,0:39:45.680
scrap it and start again it was painful

0:39:44.160,0:39:48.320
right it was hard even further

0:39:45.680,0:39:49.200
from like version two like right it was

0:39:48.320,0:39:50.400
like

0:39:49.200,0:39:52.240
but in some ways it was like a good

0:39:50.400,0:39:53.680
thing at the end we got a quiet because

0:39:52.240,0:39:55.599
of that

0:39:53.680,0:39:56.720
right yeah right right right that's

0:39:55.599,0:40:00.000
interesting

0:39:56.720,0:40:01.599
um yeah it's it's uh it and on the other

0:40:00.000,0:40:02.560
hand it's like the hard thing about hard

0:40:01.599,0:40:05.119
things you know

0:40:02.560,0:40:06.640
it's like a company that has hundreds of

0:40:05.119,0:40:07.359
people or thousands of people for them

0:40:06.640,0:40:09.359
to make like

0:40:07.359,0:40:10.880
it's easier to make that change scrap it

0:40:09.359,0:40:11.280
and rewrite it when you're a smaller

0:40:10.880,0:40:14.000
team

0:40:11.280,0:40:14.720
and not that it's easy it's still hard

0:40:14.000,0:40:16.640
but it's like

0:40:14.720,0:40:18.160
several orders of magnitude harder when

0:40:16.640,0:40:19.839
you're a bigger company

0:40:18.160,0:40:22.079
at the end of the day the market doesn't

0:40:19.839,0:40:22.480
care like the market doesn't care that

0:40:22.079,0:40:25.359
it's

0:40:22.480,0:40:27.119
hard for you to make a shift the market

0:40:25.359,0:40:30.480
is going to go with whatever the best

0:40:27.119,0:40:32.160
product is um and so it kind of doesn't

0:40:30.480,0:40:34.319
matter that it's hard

0:40:32.160,0:40:35.440
but at the same time like if you're in

0:40:34.319,0:40:37.680
that position

0:40:35.440,0:40:39.200
like what what do you do it's a hard

0:40:37.680,0:40:40.640
thing you've got a few you kind of got a

0:40:39.200,0:40:42.319
few years to kind of fix it in a few

0:40:40.640,0:40:43.839
years to catch up and at that point

0:40:42.319,0:40:46.160
you're kind of sliding

0:40:43.839,0:40:47.520
to stagnation so like i've got like a

0:40:46.160,0:40:48.079
blog post title in my head i haven't

0:40:47.520,0:40:49.359
like

0:40:48.079,0:40:51.520
figured out what it's going to say yet

0:40:49.359,0:40:55.359
but it's like you know adobe's like

0:40:51.520,0:40:57.200
billion dollar mistake like like yes

0:40:55.359,0:40:58.560
magento customer base and like the

0:40:57.200,0:40:59.200
branding and like being a platform and

0:40:58.560,0:41:00.800
stuff

0:40:59.200,0:41:02.720
i like to like pull it into the adobe

0:41:00.800,0:41:04.400
suite but like where do you go from

0:41:02.720,0:41:05.280
there like the product is like stale at

0:41:04.400,0:41:06.640
this point

0:41:05.280,0:41:08.560
like kind of chipping away at it and

0:41:06.640,0:41:11.200
stuff but like yeah

0:41:08.560,0:41:12.480
man yeah i hear you if i was like a

0:41:11.200,0:41:14.160
chief product officer or like some sort

0:41:12.480,0:41:16.319
of product manager over there but like

0:41:14.160,0:41:17.359
putting my hair out like well what do i

0:41:16.319,0:41:19.200
do with this

0:41:17.359,0:41:20.480
it'd be like let's let's redo it let's

0:41:19.200,0:41:22.720
burn it down

0:41:20.480,0:41:24.160
um why is i think i might know the

0:41:22.720,0:41:25.440
answer to this now that based on some of

0:41:24.160,0:41:27.839
the things we've discussed but

0:41:25.440,0:41:29.599
i noticed that commerce tools was higher

0:41:27.839,0:41:32.560
on the vision access

0:41:29.599,0:41:33.680
access than shopify and i'm curious why

0:41:32.560,0:41:34.720
that is if it's just because the

0:41:33.680,0:41:35.839
obviously they're going the headless

0:41:34.720,0:41:38.640
direction

0:41:35.839,0:41:39.280
um and shopify i mean i mean attacking

0:41:38.640,0:41:41.040
headless on

0:41:39.280,0:41:43.280
i mean yeah shopify are kind of tacking

0:41:41.040,0:41:45.920
it on i think it is to do with api

0:41:43.280,0:41:48.079
first and sort of headless and the

0:41:45.920,0:41:49.599
microservices aspect and in fact if you

0:41:48.079,0:41:51.200
think about for shopify

0:41:49.599,0:41:53.200
their whole premise is a platform that

0:41:51.200,0:41:53.839
is easy turnkey and easy to pick up and

0:41:53.200,0:41:55.920
use

0:41:53.839,0:41:57.359
right um and it's monolithic in nature

0:41:55.920,0:41:58.880
and they're quite if you look at sort of

0:41:57.359,0:42:00.560
what they how their

0:41:58.880,0:42:02.160
approach is with the ecosystem it's

0:42:00.560,0:42:03.520
quite controlling

0:42:02.160,0:42:05.280
whereas commerce tools is a little bit

0:42:03.520,0:42:06.000
more sort of hands-off and it's like up

0:42:05.280,0:42:07.760
to you

0:42:06.000,0:42:09.920
the implementer to kind of figure out

0:42:07.760,0:42:12.000
the gaps and fill things in with us

0:42:09.920,0:42:13.599
so i have a very i'm very hesitant

0:42:12.000,0:42:15.920
around the shopify

0:42:13.599,0:42:16.640
ecosystem and kind of what they do with

0:42:15.920,0:42:18.800
their

0:42:16.640,0:42:19.920
like into their other vendors and

0:42:18.800,0:42:21.119
integrators like

0:42:19.920,0:42:22.800
because they have all the data they know

0:42:21.119,0:42:24.240
what's working like what isn't working

0:42:22.800,0:42:27.599
they can go and

0:42:24.240,0:42:29.280
replicate a feature or like a specific

0:42:27.599,0:42:29.760
vertical thing and improve upon it and

0:42:29.280,0:42:33.119
then they

0:42:29.760,0:42:35.119
just squash kill like right

0:42:33.119,0:42:36.960
obviously it's tied into that checkout

0:42:35.119,0:42:37.680
as well like the checkout is very locked

0:42:36.960,0:42:39.280
down

0:42:37.680,0:42:40.640
but you can't do very much inside the

0:42:39.280,0:42:42.240
checkout because well but they just

0:42:40.640,0:42:42.560
released those apis for the checkout

0:42:42.240,0:42:45.520
right

0:42:42.560,0:42:46.560
just like a week or two exactly yeah but

0:42:45.520,0:42:49.040
things have to get kind of

0:42:46.560,0:42:50.160
rooted through the shopify checkout yeah

0:42:49.040,0:42:51.040
where it's like it was very interesting

0:42:50.160,0:42:52.240
like molten

0:42:51.040,0:42:53.599
you didn't have to use a checkout if you

0:42:52.240,0:42:55.440
didn't if you didn't want to you could

0:42:53.599,0:42:57.440
kind of just like pick and choose and

0:42:55.440,0:42:58.480
kind of circumvent it but the thing is

0:42:57.440,0:43:01.359
is like a

0:42:58.480,0:43:02.000
checkout is like you don't want to be in

0:43:01.359,0:43:03.920
like that

0:43:02.000,0:43:05.680
that's the problem they saw that magento

0:43:03.920,0:43:07.359
was um

0:43:05.680,0:43:08.720
causing is like you don't want to host

0:43:07.359,0:43:11.040
your own checkout

0:43:08.720,0:43:12.240
like that's a that's a tough thing to do

0:43:11.040,0:43:14.800
and and

0:43:12.240,0:43:16.400
it's going to go down yeah it depends

0:43:14.800,0:43:17.119
like if you're like if you're in the 80

0:43:16.400,0:43:18.720
percent of

0:43:17.119,0:43:20.400
like retailers and brands i just need to

0:43:18.720,0:43:21.040
stand to check out like yeah sure that's

0:43:20.400,0:43:23.680
fine

0:43:21.040,0:43:25.200
yeah so the other for the b2b use cases

0:43:23.680,0:43:26.720
and all the complex stuff that you kind

0:43:25.200,0:43:28.079
of you might need to host

0:43:26.720,0:43:29.520
you couldn't turn you can't you couldn't

0:43:28.079,0:43:30.880
plug in fast or ball or something like

0:43:29.520,0:43:33.839
you can end up

0:43:30.880,0:43:35.440
you need to have the extra steps i was

0:43:33.839,0:43:37.200
curious about that like i don't know too

0:43:35.440,0:43:39.680
much about fast either but

0:43:37.200,0:43:42.640
so you can you use fast on top of

0:43:39.680,0:43:44.240
shopify or that's just

0:43:42.640,0:43:45.680
um possible so you can use it for you

0:43:44.240,0:43:47.839
can use it on bigcommerce right now from

0:43:45.680,0:43:49.200
what i'm aware of they've got a plugin

0:43:47.839,0:43:51.520
i've had a conversation with them

0:43:49.200,0:43:52.800
briefly they do have some apis sort of

0:43:51.520,0:43:54.319
behind the scenes i don't think

0:43:52.800,0:43:55.920
like since i last checked they haven't

0:43:54.319,0:43:57.599
put out the documentation for that but

0:43:55.920,0:43:59.440
ideally then once you've got the apis

0:43:57.599,0:44:01.280
out you can do sort of

0:43:59.440,0:44:02.880
integration with anything which is great

0:44:01.280,0:44:05.359
i i assume

0:44:02.880,0:44:06.560
um you can at that point you'll be able

0:44:05.359,0:44:08.000
to use like commerce tools and whatever

0:44:06.560,0:44:09.680
else you can kind of just plug them in

0:44:08.000,0:44:11.520
i think shopify they've got an issue

0:44:09.680,0:44:12.000
with from what i'm what i've seen on

0:44:11.520,0:44:13.760
like

0:44:12.000,0:44:15.200
twitter where they're kind of like their

0:44:13.760,0:44:17.599
founders are saying like

0:44:15.200,0:44:19.599
like let us have access to the shopify

0:44:17.599,0:44:22.240
checkout so we can have our bun

0:44:19.599,0:44:24.079
um because it's kind of a bit locked

0:44:22.240,0:44:26.000
down so gotcha

0:44:24.079,0:44:27.200
so that's one of those kind of control

0:44:26.000,0:44:29.680
control issues

0:44:27.200,0:44:30.800
where shopify wants to have a certain

0:44:29.680,0:44:34.000
amount of control and

0:44:30.800,0:44:37.280
over the ecosystem and stuff does um

0:44:34.000,0:44:39.920
so does commerce tools not like

0:44:37.280,0:44:41.520
do they not step on because to a certain

0:44:39.920,0:44:43.200
extent platforms are going to always

0:44:41.520,0:44:45.359
cannibalize

0:44:43.200,0:44:47.119
their ecosystem there's kind of no way

0:44:45.359,0:44:50.800
around that right because a platform

0:44:47.119,0:44:53.040
has to grow the feature set has to grow

0:44:50.800,0:44:54.880
and anytime a feature set is i mean not

0:44:53.040,0:44:56.720
that it necessarily has to but it seems

0:44:54.880,0:44:59.839
to always grow

0:44:56.720,0:45:01.680
like yeah and so you're gonna step on

0:44:59.839,0:45:03.119
something if your feature set is growing

0:45:01.680,0:45:04.960
and the things you're gonna want to step

0:45:03.119,0:45:05.920
on are going to be the things that are

0:45:04.960,0:45:06.800
the most popular

0:45:05.920,0:45:09.599
you know that's where you're going to

0:45:06.800,0:45:09.599
probably want to focus

0:45:09.680,0:45:13.839
um yeah i could see i guess it depends

0:45:12.079,0:45:15.440
on how how those features kind of come

0:45:13.839,0:45:17.200
about and get integrated so i can see

0:45:15.440,0:45:18.240
commerce tools acquiring other api

0:45:17.200,0:45:20.000
companies

0:45:18.240,0:45:21.520
that would make sense that would still

0:45:20.000,0:45:23.359
retain the flexibility of like being

0:45:21.520,0:45:25.200
able to pick and choose

0:45:23.359,0:45:26.480
uh which features you actually decide to

0:45:25.200,0:45:26.960
implement versus go somewhere else and

0:45:26.480,0:45:29.599
get some

0:45:26.960,0:45:31.440
okay get a better product for perhaps so

0:45:29.599,0:45:33.359
i kind of i kind of see it sort of

0:45:31.440,0:45:34.640
as sort of how it gets integrated is it

0:45:33.359,0:45:36.960
kind of pulled in

0:45:34.640,0:45:38.400
to the core yeah and it kind of becomes

0:45:36.960,0:45:39.920
quite rigid and kind of in some ways

0:45:38.400,0:45:41.680
mediocre because eventually like

0:45:39.920,0:45:42.960
if you saw this at multiple if you go

0:45:41.680,0:45:44.960
really broad

0:45:42.960,0:45:46.880
like you don't specialize like you just

0:45:44.960,0:45:47.920
ended with like a a bad product like in

0:45:46.880,0:45:50.079
every category and then

0:45:47.920,0:45:52.079
we ended up sort of pivoting away from

0:45:50.079,0:45:53.200
being a platform and focusing on car and

0:45:52.079,0:45:54.319
checkout which is what our customers

0:45:53.200,0:45:56.720
were kind of using us

0:45:54.319,0:45:57.520
for gotcha um even if they didn't

0:45:56.720,0:46:01.839
realize it that's what

0:45:57.520,0:46:01.839
that's what they were doing yeah

0:46:03.440,0:46:07.599
on boarding like we had like hundreds

0:46:06.160,0:46:10.640
and hundreds of developers signing up

0:46:07.599,0:46:11.520
every week and then oh wow a small

0:46:10.640,0:46:13.119
fraction

0:46:11.520,0:46:14.960
would get through and as you build

0:46:13.119,0:46:16.480
something like that a lot of them kind

0:46:14.960,0:46:18.079
of came in expecting like the shopify

0:46:16.480,0:46:19.599
experience where it's like all there

0:46:18.079,0:46:21.200
and it was like be like right i sort of

0:46:19.599,0:46:22.720
imagine like we never we never really

0:46:21.200,0:46:24.160
tracked it like we were focused on a lot

0:46:22.720,0:46:25.760
of features and sort of the existing

0:46:24.160,0:46:28.000
customer base but like if we just focus

0:46:25.760,0:46:29.280
a bit more time on the onboarding i like

0:46:28.000,0:46:31.200
that like that like i said like the

0:46:29.280,0:46:32.560
developer experience like when you go in

0:46:31.200,0:46:33.520
and click buttons like the low code

0:46:32.560,0:46:34.560
stuff i feel like that was the thing

0:46:33.520,0:46:35.680
that's missing

0:46:34.560,0:46:37.359
uh you're seeing it a little bit i'm not

0:46:35.680,0:46:38.319
sure how familiar with the headless cms

0:46:37.359,0:46:40.560
space and like

0:46:38.319,0:46:42.000
the jump stack and stuff like a little

0:46:40.560,0:46:43.760
bit i've i've messed

0:46:42.000,0:46:45.760
up uh messed around with like prismic a

0:46:43.760,0:46:49.200
little bit um

0:46:45.760,0:46:51.760
and i thought that was really cool um

0:46:49.200,0:46:53.119
i've messed around with uh well not that

0:46:51.760,0:46:54.480
webflow is headless it's the

0:46:53.119,0:46:56.240
opposite of that but i messed around

0:46:54.480,0:46:56.880
with as far as like no code stuff goes i

0:46:56.240,0:46:59.200
messed around

0:46:56.880,0:47:01.200
with webflow i feel like a combination

0:46:59.200,0:47:03.680
of all these things like together

0:47:01.200,0:47:05.200
um where like it's like the best of all

0:47:03.680,0:47:07.520
all worlds

0:47:05.200,0:47:09.599
in the end what are some of your

0:47:07.520,0:47:12.960
favorite headless cmss for

0:47:09.599,0:47:15.520
for e-commerce uh there are i guess

0:47:12.960,0:47:16.880
in my sort of what i can have my three

0:47:15.520,0:47:18.960
go-to's

0:47:16.880,0:47:20.079
so sort of for the the developers the

0:47:18.960,0:47:22.240
hobby projects

0:47:20.079,0:47:23.359
on the lower end that's contentful

0:47:22.240,0:47:25.440
that's huge

0:47:23.359,0:47:27.040
um they've they've raised like monster

0:47:25.440,0:47:28.559
rounds of cash and they're so

0:47:27.040,0:47:30.480
obviously fueling their growth so that's

0:47:28.559,0:47:31.839
that would be sort of the first

0:47:30.480,0:47:33.200
and then there's there's two that i

0:47:31.839,0:47:34.240
guess more sort of mid market and

0:47:33.200,0:47:37.599
enterprise

0:47:34.240,0:47:39.280
content stack and amplifying

0:47:37.599,0:47:40.800
one of my clients at the moment is

0:47:39.280,0:47:42.720
ampliance i'm helping them from a

0:47:40.800,0:47:45.599
product marketing perspective but

0:47:42.720,0:47:47.119
they're sort of heavily invested into uh

0:47:45.599,0:47:50.160
companies that specializes in

0:47:47.119,0:47:51.119
e-commerce like use cases so they they

0:47:50.160,0:47:52.559
look to like

0:47:51.119,0:47:55.119
to partner with commerce tools for

0:47:52.559,0:47:58.640
example and specialize in

0:47:55.119,0:48:00.800
the e-commerce experiences that kind of

0:47:58.640,0:48:03.920
get created inside the cms as opposed to

0:48:00.800,0:48:03.920
a more generic offering

0:48:04.800,0:48:07.599
yeah like i don't know what i don't want

0:48:06.079,0:48:09.280
to go with like sell ambulance or

0:48:07.599,0:48:12.480
anything but

0:48:09.280,0:48:13.440
it depends they're not a good fit for uh

0:48:12.480,0:48:14.960
for everybody

0:48:13.440,0:48:16.880
i mean i think everybody has their

0:48:14.960,0:48:21.839
biases you know so i think

0:48:16.880,0:48:21.839
it's like yeah okay

0:48:22.640,0:48:26.160
there's a book called positioning by

0:48:24.559,0:48:27.920
alvi's i mean

0:48:26.160,0:48:29.280
this is a book i've got i'm putting

0:48:27.920,0:48:32.480
together like a reading list

0:48:29.280,0:48:35.920
that's going to be blurry as well yeah

0:48:32.480,0:48:37.760
it's like it's um it's

0:48:35.920,0:48:39.599
it's called this like like ladder like

0:48:37.760,0:48:40.319
concept where like a human brain can

0:48:39.599,0:48:42.800
only have

0:48:40.319,0:48:44.559
like so many vendors on a specific

0:48:42.800,0:48:47.200
categorized ladder so think about

0:48:44.559,0:48:49.200
e-commerce platforms you have so many

0:48:47.200,0:48:50.480
vendors on that ladder the same applies

0:48:49.200,0:48:51.760
for any industries like what's the

0:48:50.480,0:48:53.599
biggest drinks company in the world like

0:48:51.760,0:48:54.480
coca-cola and then it's maybe pepsi and

0:48:53.599,0:48:56.480
so on so you can

0:48:54.480,0:48:57.520
get this like ranking thing and whoever

0:48:56.480,0:48:59.280
gets the first spot

0:48:57.520,0:49:00.720
obviously gets the dominant position in

0:48:59.280,0:49:03.040
the market because it's occupying

0:49:00.720,0:49:04.400
everyone's brain space um so you can

0:49:03.040,0:49:05.440
imagine sort of commerce tools is maybe

0:49:04.400,0:49:07.520
the first spot for

0:49:05.440,0:49:08.960
some headless and micro services whereas

0:49:07.520,0:49:10.960
shopify has got the

0:49:08.960,0:49:12.400
the first ladder position for sort of

0:49:10.960,0:49:14.319
mum and pop like

0:49:12.400,0:49:15.839
ecommerce platform for example it's very

0:49:14.319,0:49:17.280
difficult to change that perception once

0:49:15.839,0:49:18.559
it's set as well so like there's there

0:49:17.280,0:49:19.760
are perception issues when i see sort of

0:49:18.559,0:49:20.559
sharpie try trying to go headless that

0:49:19.760,0:49:22.400
people kind of

0:49:20.559,0:49:23.760
have them categorized in a bucket so

0:49:22.400,0:49:25.359
it's very hard to kind of move

0:49:23.760,0:49:26.960
buckets and you've got to fight against

0:49:25.359,0:49:28.480
that right um

0:49:26.960,0:49:30.400
but um i'm trying to relate this back

0:49:28.480,0:49:32.640
together well

0:49:30.400,0:49:33.839
yeah it's sort of that concept um where

0:49:32.640,0:49:35.280
people only have so much

0:49:33.839,0:49:36.640
vision as to kind of what they see in

0:49:35.280,0:49:39.920
the market like if you look at like

0:49:36.640,0:49:42.240
headless cms.org i think that's netify

0:49:39.920,0:49:44.000
whatever i think they felt like a new uh

0:49:42.240,0:49:45.520
a new sort of directory of all headless

0:49:44.000,0:49:46.880
cmss there's like 100

0:49:45.520,0:49:48.559
or something it's insane it's like

0:49:46.880,0:49:51.280
something right right right

0:49:48.559,0:49:53.040
all very few that sort of stand out sort

0:49:51.280,0:49:54.319
of like through their first or their

0:49:53.040,0:49:56.640
larger or they specialize into a

0:49:54.319,0:50:00.640
specific vertical

0:49:56.640,0:50:01.839
yeah yeah so a lot of options

0:50:00.640,0:50:03.119
yeah and then and then it's like the

0:50:01.839,0:50:04.480
front ends which is like i'm trying to

0:50:03.119,0:50:06.880
sort of figure out the front ends

0:50:04.480,0:50:08.000
more so you've got like fantastic and

0:50:06.880,0:50:09.280
versatile front

0:50:08.000,0:50:11.200
mobile if i just got acquired by

0:50:09.280,0:50:12.000
salesforce um but there's a lot of stuff

0:50:11.200,0:50:13.599
happening in the front

0:50:12.000,0:50:16.240
end world and then and then you've got

0:50:13.599,0:50:18.079
hosting like the cell and netlify

0:50:16.240,0:50:19.760
and it sort of makes things a lot easier

0:50:18.079,0:50:20.240
as well and sort of mm-hmm i imagine

0:50:19.760,0:50:22.640
there's

0:50:20.240,0:50:23.520
a it's like a almost like a digital

0:50:22.640,0:50:25.440
ocean or something

0:50:23.520,0:50:27.040
for e-commerce eventually where you can

0:50:25.440,0:50:29.280
just like click buttons

0:50:27.040,0:50:31.040
select your hosting providers like your

0:50:29.280,0:50:33.760
promotion engines like your cart

0:50:31.040,0:50:34.480
and right deploy and you just like

0:50:33.760,0:50:35.680
launch

0:50:34.480,0:50:37.359
the site and then you could like just

0:50:35.680,0:50:38.480
hammer it or you could have it you

0:50:37.359,0:50:40.559
program it as a script

0:50:38.480,0:50:42.400
and like spawn ten thousand websites so

0:50:40.559,0:50:44.960
they had a keystroke

0:50:42.400,0:50:45.520
and that's like suck data in for my feed

0:50:44.960,0:50:47.280
right

0:50:45.520,0:50:48.800
at that point let's like speak like

0:50:47.280,0:50:53.200
super superpowers

0:50:48.800,0:50:56.480
right did you say fantastic

0:50:53.200,0:50:59.920
fantastic uh there's a few uh

0:50:56.480,0:51:03.040
cool names so they're a headless

0:50:59.920,0:51:05.520
front end for e-commerce platforms

0:51:03.040,0:51:08.000
uh and cms's so like instead of like

0:51:05.520,0:51:10.240
building like something on the jam stack

0:51:08.000,0:51:11.680
um yourself you can pay them as a

0:51:10.240,0:51:11.920
subscription fee and they'll they'll do

0:51:11.680,0:51:14.079
the

0:51:11.920,0:51:15.680
do your storefront for you oh okay so

0:51:14.079,0:51:16.880
it's kind of like so instead of building

0:51:15.680,0:51:18.480
everything yourself you can kind of go

0:51:16.880,0:51:20.400
to one of these front end providers

0:51:18.480,0:51:22.240
and they kind of solve that problem

0:51:20.400,0:51:25.200
gotcha each each headless

0:51:22.240,0:51:26.559
vendor will have their own like examples

0:51:25.200,0:51:27.680
and accelerators and things and then

0:51:26.559,0:51:28.720
there's like these things that you could

0:51:27.680,0:51:30.559
use in production

0:51:28.720,0:51:31.680
and then some people just even then they

0:51:30.559,0:51:33.599
still go and build their own they just

0:51:31.680,0:51:35.680
look at these things as like references

0:51:33.599,0:51:36.960
and then decide we'll go i will get two

0:51:35.680,0:51:40.160
developers and we'll go build

0:51:36.960,0:51:42.240
it right right right in our stack

0:51:40.160,0:51:43.520
right there's a lot of choices which

0:51:42.240,0:51:45.119
also makes it difficult

0:51:43.520,0:51:47.440
right and that's right that's what i'm

0:51:45.119,0:51:48.640
trying to sort of i i'm working like

0:51:47.440,0:51:50.480
we haven't really talked about what i'm

0:51:48.640,0:51:53.200
doing sort of post acquisition but i'm

0:51:50.480,0:51:53.599
a consultant now and i'm kind of working

0:51:53.200,0:51:55.280
both

0:51:53.599,0:51:56.720
for the vendors themselves for product

0:51:55.280,0:51:58.640
marketing so helping them

0:51:56.720,0:52:01.119
with their sales and marketing processes

0:51:58.640,0:52:03.200
but also for the retailers and brands

0:52:01.119,0:52:04.880
evaluating vendors making those

0:52:03.200,0:52:06.720
technology choices

0:52:04.880,0:52:08.319
um because it's really hard like you and

0:52:06.720,0:52:10.079
i'm confused sometimes like

0:52:08.319,0:52:11.760
like someone will throw like another

0:52:10.079,0:52:12.960
like another vendor at me i'm like i

0:52:11.760,0:52:13.520
don't i've never heard of them like give

0:52:12.960,0:52:15.359
me like

0:52:13.520,0:52:17.280
an hour i'm gonna go deep in it as much

0:52:15.359,0:52:18.640
as i can check and then use all the

0:52:17.280,0:52:20.319
all the other data points that i've got

0:52:18.640,0:52:21.359
from like looking at all of the products

0:52:20.319,0:52:23.359
to kind of get a quick

0:52:21.359,0:52:25.280
gut feel yeah and then if you want me to

0:52:23.359,0:52:26.240
go deeper i could spend like half a day

0:52:25.280,0:52:28.640
kind of like doing

0:52:26.240,0:52:29.680
like really detailed investigation work

0:52:28.640,0:52:31.680
yeah yeah

0:52:29.680,0:52:33.040
usually usually the gut feel is like a

0:52:31.680,0:52:36.079
good enough yeah

0:52:33.040,0:52:39.599
checked yeah i think most people have

0:52:36.079,0:52:42.240
pretty sort of simplistic heuristics for

0:52:39.599,0:52:42.640
use this platform or use that platform

0:52:42.240,0:52:45.440
and

0:52:42.640,0:52:46.800
even if they do consult on a on a a

0:52:45.440,0:52:47.920
handful of different platforms like

0:52:46.800,0:52:49.440
they're a big commerce partner they're

0:52:47.920,0:52:50.240
also a magento partner shopify plus

0:52:49.440,0:52:51.920
partner

0:52:50.240,0:52:53.680
they probably have a few relatively

0:52:51.920,0:52:55.920
simple buckets that you kind of fall

0:52:53.680,0:52:59.119
into based on budget or a few different

0:52:55.920,0:53:00.880
high-level features positioning like you

0:52:59.119,0:53:04.319
have to like as a human you have to

0:53:00.880,0:53:07.280
emphasize all this like chaos right into

0:53:04.319,0:53:08.559
it's very simple because otherwise like

0:53:07.280,0:53:10.480
i don't know how you'd cope

0:53:08.559,0:53:12.000
like right right the world is over

0:53:10.480,0:53:13.359
communicated too there's a lot

0:53:12.000,0:53:14.319
a lot of marketing out there and stuff

0:53:13.359,0:53:15.280
you kind of have to try and get past

0:53:14.319,0:53:16.400
that a little bit

0:53:15.280,0:53:17.599
just to get to something that's a little

0:53:16.400,0:53:19.200
bit tangible and real and i feel like

0:53:17.599,0:53:20.160
that's kind of like coming back to that

0:53:19.200,0:53:21.280
magic

0:53:20.160,0:53:23.440
roundabout that's kind of what i was

0:53:21.280,0:53:24.640
kind of going for is kind of like

0:53:23.440,0:53:27.040
just getting a little bit more down to

0:53:24.640,0:53:28.559
like a realistic level as to it's

0:53:27.040,0:53:29.839
of relative it's all based on each other

0:53:28.559,0:53:30.640
kind of as well it's all kind of

0:53:29.839,0:53:33.680
subjective

0:53:30.640,0:53:35.920
but i think you mentioned um uh

0:53:33.680,0:53:38.319
what an acquisition by salesforce and i

0:53:35.920,0:53:40.559
think if i remember from the chart

0:53:38.319,0:53:42.800
salesforce and magento were in the

0:53:40.559,0:53:43.760
crevice of uh carelessness but if i

0:53:42.800,0:53:45.200
remember

0:53:43.760,0:53:47.280
salesforce was moving in the right

0:53:45.200,0:53:48.640
direction and magenta

0:53:47.280,0:53:50.319
that's why even in the right yeah

0:53:48.640,0:53:54.000
because the acquisition is kind of like

0:53:50.319,0:53:56.400
that's the timeline and then fighting

0:53:54.000,0:53:57.680
and what was that again what was that

0:53:56.400,0:53:59.599
actually

0:53:57.680,0:54:01.040
yeah that's mobify that's the headless

0:53:59.599,0:54:02.640
uh front end so they've

0:54:01.040,0:54:04.640
got you they've kind of in some ways

0:54:02.640,0:54:07.040
solved part of the headless problem

0:54:04.640,0:54:08.400
by acquiring a front end it doesn't

0:54:07.040,0:54:10.160
solve the monolith on the back end

0:54:08.400,0:54:11.119
though they still have like a terrible

0:54:10.160,0:54:13.119
cms and

0:54:11.119,0:54:14.480
back-end suite okay so like to fix that

0:54:13.119,0:54:15.040
to fix that either build like something

0:54:14.480,0:54:17.280
themselves

0:54:15.040,0:54:18.240
api first micro services or they go and

0:54:17.280,0:54:20.640
acquire one

0:54:18.240,0:54:21.359
yeah um that's what but to get them up

0:54:20.640,0:54:23.599
like

0:54:21.359,0:54:25.040
more like getting to the like horizontal

0:54:23.599,0:54:25.839
line like that's where they kind of need

0:54:25.040,0:54:27.760
to be

0:54:25.839,0:54:30.079
right um i've got like a headless like

0:54:27.760,0:54:34.319
cms roundabout as well but it's

0:54:30.079,0:54:34.319
okay it's chaos it's way more chaotic

0:54:35.280,0:54:39.280
yeah it's just insane like it's harder

0:54:37.359,0:54:40.799
to create an ecommerce platform than it

0:54:39.280,0:54:42.720
is to create a cms like

0:54:40.799,0:54:44.079
cms is easy like there's no logic it's

0:54:42.720,0:54:47.119
just like data like

0:54:44.079,0:54:48.000
input and outputs but a cms any kind of

0:54:47.119,0:54:50.720
platform is like

0:54:48.000,0:54:52.480
calculations promos tax right right

0:54:50.720,0:54:54.319
right right right

0:54:52.480,0:54:56.160
there's more complexity there but the

0:54:54.319,0:54:59.520
quadrant is more

0:54:56.160,0:55:01.839
complicated because there's

0:54:59.520,0:55:03.200
i think probably also also because the

0:55:01.839,0:55:05.040
space is newer

0:55:03.200,0:55:07.040
so kind of goes back to that martech law

0:55:05.040,0:55:08.880
right like the e-commerce platforms have

0:55:07.040,0:55:10.640
have all kind of a little bit been set

0:55:08.880,0:55:12.160
in the path that they're on

0:55:10.640,0:55:13.760
whereas like these headless cmss are

0:55:12.160,0:55:14.799
probably all relatively newer

0:55:13.760,0:55:16.480
like you said it's sort of a

0:55:14.799,0:55:17.200
fundamentally simpler problem to solve

0:55:16.480,0:55:18.880
so then

0:55:17.200,0:55:20.160
you sort of you pull in like wordpress

0:55:18.880,0:55:21.119
into that drupal or something and

0:55:20.160,0:55:22.160
they're kind of like yeah they're kind

0:55:21.119,0:55:23.920
of maybe like blue

0:55:22.160,0:55:26.480
a little bit i don't know if you uh

0:55:23.920,0:55:28.960
you're aware of the uh

0:55:26.480,0:55:29.839
the there's a discussion at the netleyfy

0:55:28.960,0:55:31.359
um

0:55:29.839,0:55:33.520
you comment i think it's headless ecom

0:55:31.359,0:55:34.640
summit or the headless summit like jump

0:55:33.520,0:55:35.520
stack summit or something in the past

0:55:34.640,0:55:37.440
like week or two

0:55:35.520,0:55:38.720
where the netlify founder had a debate

0:55:37.440,0:55:41.200
with the wordpress founder

0:55:38.720,0:55:42.799
like i didn't i instigated that on

0:55:41.200,0:55:44.480
twitter i was like tagging them both

0:55:42.799,0:55:47.280
yes come on like we're gonna have a

0:55:44.480,0:55:48.799
discussion about this oh really i think

0:55:47.280,0:55:49.920
any sort of like a right tool for the

0:55:48.799,0:55:51.280
job thing like wordpress is good for

0:55:49.920,0:55:52.640
certain people and like yes they're kind

0:55:51.280,0:55:53.359
of moving towards headless a little bit

0:55:52.640,0:55:54.720
too

0:55:53.359,0:55:56.799
and you can you can build them up you

0:55:54.720,0:55:58.000
can build that stuff but uh yeah i kind

0:55:56.799,0:55:59.119
of like to just agitate people a little

0:55:58.000,0:55:59.760
bit and just have the discussions

0:55:59.119,0:56:01.359
because then

0:55:59.760,0:56:03.440
more people become aware of like newer

0:56:01.359,0:56:05.520
technologies and newer approaches

0:56:03.440,0:56:06.480
everyone should benefit in the end so

0:56:05.520,0:56:09.200
right

0:56:06.480,0:56:10.480
the wordpress the wordpress ceo's name

0:56:09.200,0:56:13.520
is escaping me matt

0:56:10.480,0:56:16.400
uh yeah they're both called ma we should

0:56:13.520,0:56:17.040
come even more what's this what's his

0:56:16.400,0:56:20.319
last name

0:56:17.040,0:56:22.400
matt anyways

0:56:20.319,0:56:24.319
i kind of wanted this he has a pink

0:56:22.400,0:56:26.559
circle avatar on twitter

0:56:24.319,0:56:28.079
which i remember but so you instigated

0:56:26.559,0:56:31.359
that like

0:56:28.079,0:56:32.480
discussion between them the ceo wrote a

0:56:31.359,0:56:33.920
letter

0:56:32.480,0:56:36.319
on like on the blog or something of

0:56:33.920,0:56:37.359
netlify and then the wordpress founder

0:56:36.319,0:56:38.720
responds but they weren't talking to

0:56:37.359,0:56:40.960
each other so i was like just tagged

0:56:38.720,0:56:42.480
them both and like

0:56:40.960,0:56:43.680
just like see you thinking about when

0:56:42.480,0:56:45.520
they start talking about having a debate

0:56:43.680,0:56:47.200
and stuff and then that got arranged

0:56:45.520,0:56:48.960
and then like i don't know the chat was

0:56:47.200,0:56:51.200
crazy so they um

0:56:48.960,0:56:52.400
never if i were using uh i can't

0:56:51.200,0:56:53.920
remember the name of the tool but

0:56:52.400,0:56:55.920
you have a life just be like twitch

0:56:53.920,0:56:57.200
there's like thousands and thousands of

0:56:55.920,0:56:59.040
people like watching

0:56:57.200,0:57:01.200
all like trolling each other and like

0:56:59.040,0:57:04.799
fanboys coming out he's like

0:57:01.200,0:57:06.000
it's hilarious it got wild

0:57:04.799,0:57:08.160
yeah and they're like they're like

0:57:06.000,0:57:08.720
moderating the chat like like doesn't

0:57:08.160,0:57:12.720
moderate

0:57:08.720,0:57:14.880
around delete all their like profanity

0:57:12.720,0:57:16.319
yeah a few people people love like like

0:57:14.880,0:57:17.440
like technology companies you kind of

0:57:16.319,0:57:20.160
become like it's like

0:57:17.440,0:57:21.680
yeah and it's it's also like you know

0:57:20.160,0:57:25.040
people get religious about

0:57:21.680,0:57:26.079
platforms you know it just happens yeah

0:57:25.040,0:57:27.599
think that's gonna be i think i think

0:57:26.079,0:57:29.599
that's just a bit crazy like i'm a big

0:57:27.599,0:57:30.720
believer in like rachel's for the job i

0:57:29.599,0:57:32.400
was at university i was doing like

0:57:30.720,0:57:34.000
wordpress and stuff and like

0:57:32.400,0:57:35.839
yeah it's good for a certain type of

0:57:34.000,0:57:39.119
like person or company

0:57:35.839,0:57:41.040
yeah that's not what i would use now but

0:57:39.119,0:57:42.720
yeah it's their own if the job that's

0:57:41.040,0:57:45.119
fine one of the things i

0:57:42.720,0:57:46.559
i think might be interesting is to like

0:57:45.119,0:57:46.880
have one of the things i keep thinking

0:57:46.559,0:57:51.359
about

0:57:46.880,0:57:53.839
is like a podcast with um a merchant

0:57:51.359,0:57:54.960
like uh in two different two different

0:57:53.839,0:57:56.960
um consultants

0:57:54.960,0:57:58.160
that specialize in different platforms

0:57:56.960,0:58:00.240
and kind of like

0:57:58.160,0:58:01.599
basically doing a consulting session

0:58:00.240,0:58:04.960
live on the air

0:58:01.599,0:58:06.319
and proposing different um solutions

0:58:04.960,0:58:07.599
to solve their problems right so it's

0:58:06.319,0:58:08.079
like well we need this so we need this

0:58:07.599,0:58:10.880
integration

0:58:08.079,0:58:11.680
and that and it out it's one of those

0:58:10.880,0:58:14.480
things it could be

0:58:11.680,0:58:15.839
just chaos or yeah it can be chaos it's

0:58:14.480,0:58:18.480
gonna be really dull it could also be

0:58:15.839,0:58:18.960
like really interesting we would do the

0:58:18.480,0:58:20.160
that's

0:58:18.960,0:58:22.000
what we would do like in the sales

0:58:20.160,0:58:22.559
process at multi we wouldn't just sell

0:58:22.000,0:58:24.240
molten

0:58:22.559,0:58:25.760
we would be selling like 10 other

0:58:24.240,0:58:27.520
products alongside us

0:58:25.760,0:58:29.040
yeah based on like the problem kind of

0:58:27.520,0:58:31.839
presented with right

0:58:29.040,0:58:32.799
right and it's like so many of those

0:58:31.839,0:58:34.839
discussions

0:58:32.799,0:58:36.160
like all of these mid-market enterprise

0:58:34.839,0:58:38.799
sales

0:58:36.160,0:58:39.520
workflows are all behind closed doors

0:58:38.799,0:58:41.440
and

0:58:39.520,0:58:43.200
sometimes there's weird incentives and

0:58:41.440,0:58:44.160
weird stuff going on and it's just

0:58:43.200,0:58:45.599
there's something to me that'd be

0:58:44.160,0:58:47.200
interesting about getting those

0:58:45.599,0:58:48.960
conversations out into the open

0:58:47.200,0:58:50.480
obviously there's limitations like a

0:58:48.960,0:58:52.160
retailer can't just

0:58:50.480,0:58:53.760
talk about all the private stuff within

0:58:52.160,0:58:55.599
their rfp

0:58:53.760,0:58:57.599
uh publicly but i don't know there's

0:58:55.599,0:58:59.359
something to me that would be neat about

0:58:57.599,0:59:01.200
getting those conversations out into the

0:58:59.359,0:59:02.960
open

0:59:01.200,0:59:04.799
yeah you'd have to get that with a hard

0:59:02.960,0:59:05.280
thing finding a retailer to like play

0:59:04.799,0:59:08.400
ball

0:59:05.280,0:59:11.119
like when they do it publicly yeah but

0:59:08.400,0:59:12.880
even yeah even just kind of like it's a

0:59:11.119,0:59:14.480
like for even for a smaller starts like

0:59:12.880,0:59:15.839
a if you can find like a d2c

0:59:14.480,0:59:17.440
brand or something that's just starting

0:59:15.839,0:59:18.480
out or something like a cool one that's

0:59:17.440,0:59:20.400
like really transparent

0:59:18.480,0:59:21.280
yeah yeah the cool one that's been like

0:59:20.400,0:59:22.799
maybe they've got a little bit of

0:59:21.280,0:59:24.160
funding or something and it's like still

0:59:22.799,0:59:25.359
privately owned and stuff like that

0:59:24.160,0:59:28.480
would be

0:59:25.359,0:59:29.920
um one way to go because you you'll be

0:59:28.480,0:59:31.359
talking to the decision maker and the

0:59:29.920,0:59:32.319
person that can maybe have to implement

0:59:31.359,0:59:34.480
it maybe

0:59:32.319,0:59:35.359
i remember one customer was the cmo and

0:59:34.480,0:59:37.359
the developer

0:59:35.359,0:59:39.839
like whenever one of our six figure

0:59:37.359,0:59:43.599
deals it was like it was a dtc brand and

0:59:39.839,0:59:43.599
like the deal was like very quick

0:59:44.400,0:59:50.160
the cmo was the developer

0:59:47.680,0:59:51.040
yeah like those deals quite the best

0:59:50.160,0:59:52.400
because like you're

0:59:51.040,0:59:53.599
confidence one person but you don't have

0:59:52.400,0:59:55.280
to yeah you don't have to sit in front

0:59:53.599,0:59:56.799
of a room of 20 people

0:59:55.280,0:59:58.640
and try and tell each person how they're

0:59:56.799,0:59:59.280
going to do their job like six months

0:59:58.640,1:00:01.520
from now

0:59:59.280,1:00:04.079
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah on a

1:00:01.520,1:00:07.440
conference call with 20 different people

1:00:04.079,1:00:09.280
uh yeah so i'm not sure if i was reading

1:00:07.440,1:00:10.240
this part of the chart correctly but it

1:00:09.280,1:00:14.559
seems like the

1:00:10.240,1:00:15.839
the aero vector for uh big commerce

1:00:14.559,1:00:18.079
was showing that it was like

1:00:15.839,1:00:20.160
accelerating faster

1:00:18.079,1:00:21.760
along the execution access it was like

1:00:20.160,1:00:22.079
the arrow was longer i don't know if i

1:00:21.760,1:00:24.240
was

1:00:22.079,1:00:25.760
misreading that as compared to like

1:00:24.240,1:00:27.920
shopify

1:00:25.760,1:00:29.520
yeah i think so i mean i feel like

1:00:27.920,1:00:30.160
shopify is yes moving towards headless

1:00:29.520,1:00:31.760
and like i've

1:00:30.160,1:00:33.119
spoke to a few shopify plus agencies

1:00:31.760,1:00:33.920
that are doing headless implementations

1:00:33.119,1:00:35.119
but they

1:00:33.920,1:00:36.400
they are saying the same thing that i'm

1:00:35.119,1:00:37.680
saying which is like you you're kind of

1:00:36.400,1:00:38.799
throwing all the stuff that makes you

1:00:37.680,1:00:40.480
fight great out the window and just

1:00:38.799,1:00:41.440
doing the headless thing for the site

1:00:40.480,1:00:43.839
speed

1:00:41.440,1:00:45.839
um but yeah for the big commerce side i

1:00:43.839,1:00:48.319
think that obviously there's the ipo

1:00:45.839,1:00:49.760
i also see their apis and their

1:00:48.319,1:00:51.359
marketing in the market

1:00:49.760,1:00:53.599
a lot i feel like they're doing a better

1:00:51.359,1:00:55.599
execution of headless

1:00:53.599,1:00:57.520
than shopify is they've moved faster so

1:00:55.599,1:00:59.839
like a few years ago shopify and vidcom

1:00:57.520,1:01:02.079
was like duking it out in the smb space

1:00:59.839,1:01:02.880
and now i feel like bitcomas is beating

1:01:02.079,1:01:05.440
them to the punch

1:01:02.880,1:01:06.000
a little bit into the headless space

1:01:05.440,1:01:08.160
that's kind of

1:01:06.000,1:01:09.040
my my read what did you both adopt you

1:01:08.160,1:01:10.880
know

1:01:09.040,1:01:12.400
there were some graphs i can't remember

1:01:10.880,1:01:14.240
who posted them i think it's just

1:01:12.400,1:01:15.839
built with graphs for like shopify

1:01:14.240,1:01:17.760
versus big commerce

1:01:15.839,1:01:19.680
uh in the in the top like 1000 websites

1:01:17.760,1:01:20.480
and you can yes shopify is ahead but you

1:01:19.680,1:01:22.559
should see like

1:01:20.480,1:01:25.280
the growth curve of like big commerce in

1:01:22.559,1:01:26.720
comparison like shopify is kind of like

1:01:25.280,1:01:28.400
beginning to ease off whereas like big

1:01:26.720,1:01:28.960
commerce is going open like they're good

1:01:28.400,1:01:30.079
like

1:01:28.960,1:01:32.079
probably like only a few months away

1:01:30.079,1:01:34.799
from vidcon taking shopify

1:01:32.079,1:01:35.119
really yeah that's interesting i think

1:01:34.799,1:01:36.480
that

1:01:35.119,1:01:37.440
they've got like a massive like warchest

1:01:36.480,1:01:38.880
of like funding obviously on the

1:01:37.440,1:01:41.440
marketing side right

1:01:38.880,1:01:42.640
right well they both have massive war

1:01:41.440,1:01:44.960
chests

1:01:42.640,1:01:46.559
right i think it's just like how they're

1:01:44.960,1:01:48.160
being applied and i think shopify is

1:01:46.559,1:01:50.079
fighting a perception issue now like the

1:01:48.160,1:01:52.640
challenge of like being bucketed as

1:01:50.079,1:01:53.599
smv yes they've got shopify plus then

1:01:52.640,1:01:55.119
it's going to it's going to work for

1:01:53.599,1:01:57.680
some people but

1:01:55.119,1:01:59.280
um like it's just like again it's like

1:01:57.680,1:02:01.119
you get into the details on the apis and

1:01:59.280,1:02:02.480
you speak to like maybe a cto or

1:02:01.119,1:02:03.839
technical decision maker of one of these

1:02:02.480,1:02:04.799
enterprises that's choosing the ecom

1:02:03.839,1:02:07.520
platform and like

1:02:04.799,1:02:08.799
shopify is a bad word like they just

1:02:07.520,1:02:09.520
don't want to kind of go near it they

1:02:08.799,1:02:11.039
kind of

1:02:09.520,1:02:13.039
like they've already put it in their

1:02:11.039,1:02:15.599
positioning bucket and they're like

1:02:13.039,1:02:16.559
yeah yeah get it essentially big

1:02:15.599,1:02:18.319
commerce i don't think it's got that

1:02:16.559,1:02:20.559
problem i think like they lost the smv

1:02:18.319,1:02:21.440
space a little bit but now that's giving

1:02:20.559,1:02:24.000
them some like

1:02:21.440,1:02:25.119
space to get very interesting category

1:02:24.000,1:02:26.799
for themselves

1:02:25.119,1:02:28.000
which they're still a hybrid they still

1:02:26.799,1:02:28.640
have sort of the page builders and the

1:02:28.000,1:02:30.880
shopify

1:02:28.640,1:02:32.640
type stuff and if you go the headless

1:02:30.880,1:02:34.400
route you again put it in the bin but

1:02:32.640,1:02:36.640
i feel like the big commerce apis are

1:02:34.400,1:02:38.960
better and they have a nicer approach to

1:02:36.640,1:02:40.960
the ecosystem it feels like they're

1:02:38.960,1:02:42.400
like not as sort of controlling of the

1:02:40.960,1:02:48.160
checkout as well you see that you know

1:02:42.400,1:02:49.359
the fast like integration other

1:02:48.160,1:02:52.559
categories and stuff

1:02:49.359,1:02:54.799
that's interesting um it's funny because

1:02:52.559,1:02:56.400
i think i've heard that a handful of

1:02:54.799,1:02:57.920
times that sort of big commerce is

1:02:56.400,1:03:00.480
better for headless

1:02:57.920,1:03:01.680
and i don't even know why it's like that

1:03:00.480,1:03:03.520
positioning thing you're saying it's

1:03:01.680,1:03:05.680
just kind of been positioned that way

1:03:03.520,1:03:06.960
and so i have that perception but in

1:03:05.680,1:03:09.119
terms of the details

1:03:06.960,1:03:10.160
i don't i don't even know why that's the

1:03:09.119,1:03:12.000
case

1:03:10.160,1:03:14.000
there are some details there like if you

1:03:12.000,1:03:15.200
look at the apis and stuff it's like

1:03:14.000,1:03:17.359
super new ones and yeah

1:03:15.200,1:03:19.280
you have to get like like just like

1:03:17.359,1:03:20.880
comparing api responses to kind of see

1:03:19.280,1:03:22.240
the differences they do they do matter

1:03:20.880,1:03:22.640
like the developer experience does

1:03:22.240,1:03:26.240
matter

1:03:22.640,1:03:28.400
like um for like a

1:03:26.240,1:03:29.920
a non-technical business decision maker

1:03:28.400,1:03:31.280
like they're not gonna have a clue like

1:03:29.920,1:03:32.880
well that equates to like a good

1:03:31.280,1:03:35.119
developer experience will equate to a

1:03:32.880,1:03:37.680
faster implementation and a better

1:03:35.119,1:03:39.359
end product um because there's less and

1:03:37.680,1:03:40.559
less ways for things to go wrong because

1:03:39.359,1:03:44.240
it's yeah being put together

1:03:40.559,1:03:46.799
any specific um any specific ap like

1:03:44.240,1:03:47.839
like like uh api calls come to mind

1:03:46.799,1:03:50.960
where

1:03:47.839,1:03:52.880
they have a a lot more functionality on

1:03:50.960,1:03:54.319
the big commerce side

1:03:52.880,1:03:55.359
i don't i don't i think it may be just

1:03:54.319,1:03:56.880
around the checkout i don't think

1:03:55.359,1:03:58.799
there's there's too much

1:03:56.880,1:04:00.079
like from a feature to feature thing

1:03:58.799,1:04:01.839
like again like feature to feature

1:04:00.079,1:04:04.240
comparisons uh

1:04:01.839,1:04:06.079
like in some ways pointless like it

1:04:04.240,1:04:07.599
comes down to like the new ones

1:04:06.079,1:04:09.200
oh if a feature is missing you can go

1:04:07.599,1:04:10.559
and find something else it kind of fills

1:04:09.200,1:04:11.119
that gap and maybe actually does it

1:04:10.559,1:04:14.160
better

1:04:11.119,1:04:15.760
so you know like one comparison chart i

1:04:14.160,1:04:18.799
would be interested in seeing

1:04:15.760,1:04:20.319
would be api coverage of like shopify

1:04:18.799,1:04:22.480
magento big commerce

1:04:20.319,1:04:25.440
commerce tools is that something that

1:04:22.480,1:04:27.359
you could be sort of um

1:04:25.440,1:04:29.039
you could be sort of objective about it

1:04:27.359,1:04:31.440
right like a marketing

1:04:29.039,1:04:33.039
feature uh functionality comparison

1:04:31.440,1:04:33.920
chart is always going to be biased but i

1:04:33.039,1:04:35.839
feel like

1:04:33.920,1:04:37.119
uh in terms of api coverage it's a

1:04:35.839,1:04:37.760
little more black and white it's like

1:04:37.119,1:04:40.079
okay

1:04:37.760,1:04:42.160
on these objects which methods do you

1:04:40.079,1:04:44.720
have which fields do you have

1:04:42.160,1:04:45.359
and just a big ass chart where you could

1:04:44.720,1:04:47.200
sort of

1:04:45.359,1:04:48.799
so if so if you're building a loyalty

1:04:47.200,1:04:49.839
points integration and you want to know

1:04:48.799,1:04:51.440
about the customer

1:04:49.839,1:04:53.440
object and the product object and the

1:04:51.440,1:04:54.960
checkout object you could just see them

1:04:53.440,1:04:57.119
all right there in front of you

1:04:54.960,1:04:58.799
the oh shopify doesn't give me like i

1:04:57.119,1:05:00.240
remember there was a time where shopify

1:04:58.799,1:05:02.559
wouldn't give you

1:05:00.240,1:05:03.520
ability to create promo codes over the

1:05:02.559,1:05:05.200
api

1:05:03.520,1:05:06.559
they had to be created manually in the

1:05:05.200,1:05:08.559
back end so then

1:05:06.559,1:05:10.079
the apps would create some workaround

1:05:08.559,1:05:11.599
where they'd make it easy for you to

1:05:10.079,1:05:13.440
copy and paste

1:05:11.599,1:05:15.200
promo codes yeah yeah and then i think

1:05:13.440,1:05:16.480
they eventually covered that but those

1:05:15.200,1:05:18.160
are the specifics so it's like the

1:05:16.480,1:05:20.480
devils and the details

1:05:18.160,1:05:21.520
you know yeah i think this does this the

1:05:20.480,1:05:23.440
i guess the

1:05:21.520,1:05:25.039
the functional like requirements like

1:05:23.440,1:05:26.640
all these like categories like

1:05:25.039,1:05:28.960
the catalog service the car service to

1:05:26.640,1:05:31.440
check out the order etc you could have

1:05:28.960,1:05:32.880
like a blow by blow for each of those

1:05:31.440,1:05:35.119
you get into sort of

1:05:32.880,1:05:36.319
like eventually yes every platform will

1:05:35.119,1:05:37.760
be covered like

1:05:36.319,1:05:39.039
at that level but then there's like the

1:05:37.760,1:05:39.680
bells and whistles below that which is

1:05:39.039,1:05:41.520
like

1:05:39.680,1:05:43.280
the granularity when you get into that

1:05:41.520,1:05:44.160
very specific types of functionality and

1:05:43.280,1:05:45.599
things

1:05:44.160,1:05:46.799
uh which because it becomes more

1:05:45.599,1:05:47.599
difficult because that's when things

1:05:46.799,1:05:49.039
begin to kind of

1:05:47.599,1:05:50.720
drift and differentiate a little bit

1:05:49.039,1:05:52.480
between each different platform

1:05:50.720,1:05:54.000
in terms of how they execute that

1:05:52.480,1:05:56.240
feature perhaps

1:05:54.000,1:05:57.200
so because it seems like a monumental

1:05:56.240,1:05:58.720
challenge which is probably why it

1:05:57.200,1:06:00.079
hasn't been done

1:05:58.720,1:06:01.760
there is a product i don't know if you

1:06:00.079,1:06:04.960
come across an api to cart

1:06:01.760,1:06:06.559
and they focus on like integrate syncing

1:06:04.960,1:06:07.760
of data between platforms and they have

1:06:06.559,1:06:09.520
a chart that kind of looks

1:06:07.760,1:06:10.880
like that in terms of which ones they've

1:06:09.520,1:06:13.760
integrated with

1:06:10.880,1:06:14.880
um which is like you kind of useful but

1:06:13.760,1:06:16.240
it's like again it's only like the

1:06:14.880,1:06:16.640
superficial like high levels to play

1:06:16.240,1:06:18.720
they've got

1:06:16.640,1:06:19.760
the generic like descriptions and yes or

1:06:18.720,1:06:22.960
no's

1:06:19.760,1:06:24.960
but um like it's hard because you could

1:06:22.960,1:06:25.839
imagine like commerce tools has got 100

1:06:24.960,1:06:27.599
coverage because they

1:06:25.839,1:06:29.680
everything is api first right if you

1:06:27.599,1:06:31.200
look at like shopify and they've got

1:06:29.680,1:06:33.440
like a page builder or something

1:06:31.200,1:06:35.280
maybe the page builder isn't you know

1:06:33.440,1:06:36.319
api first but everything yeah else and

1:06:35.280,1:06:37.839
the

1:06:36.319,1:06:39.920
checkout maybe is yeah there's

1:06:37.839,1:06:42.319
similarities and then like the nuance

1:06:39.920,1:06:43.920
yeah yeah i mean everybody shoots for

1:06:42.319,1:06:46.640
100 coverage

1:06:43.920,1:06:47.039
nobody has 100 coverage unless they have

1:06:46.640,1:06:49.119
to

1:06:47.039,1:06:50.960
like like ecommerce tools if you

1:06:49.119,1:06:52.880
literally don't have a head

1:06:50.960,1:06:55.119
then you you have no choice you have to

1:06:52.880,1:06:57.520
be 100 coverage by definition

1:06:55.119,1:06:59.520
otherwise you're going to try your best

1:06:57.520,1:07:00.880
maybe the marketing team is gonna say

1:06:59.520,1:07:02.799
you have a hundred percent but you're

1:07:00.880,1:07:03.920
not gonna have a hundred percent

1:07:02.799,1:07:06.079
there's also things that you might not

1:07:03.920,1:07:07.599
even consider that should be an api like

1:07:06.079,1:07:09.440
we had apis at milton that we didn't

1:07:07.599,1:07:09.760
release but like we wanted to but it was

1:07:09.440,1:07:11.119
like

1:07:09.760,1:07:12.720
hard to figure out how to do it without

1:07:11.119,1:07:14.000
like breaking out systems like we had

1:07:12.720,1:07:15.599
like a stores api

1:07:14.000,1:07:17.119
so you could like programmatically

1:07:15.599,1:07:18.960
create stores because we had the old

1:07:17.119,1:07:20.640
like we wanted like people to like the

1:07:18.960,1:07:22.240
stroke of a key to it to like launch

1:07:20.640,1:07:24.319
like thousands of sites but obviously

1:07:22.240,1:07:25.920
behind that you've got to figure out how

1:07:24.319,1:07:27.839
to scale that so like we were like

1:07:25.920,1:07:29.839
we don't want to like break heroin like

1:07:27.839,1:07:31.760
infrastructure like by doing that

1:07:29.839,1:07:33.440
yeah and we have like like kind of

1:07:31.760,1:07:34.240
factoring like authentication layers and

1:07:33.440,1:07:36.400
like how

1:07:34.240,1:07:38.400
how did how yeah this is the entity

1:07:36.400,1:07:39.760
store versus an organization or user or

1:07:38.400,1:07:41.280
something so we have like

1:07:39.760,1:07:43.359
other sort of roblox kind of getting

1:07:41.280,1:07:44.400
that released to be consumable but our

1:07:43.359,1:07:46.640
our dashboards

1:07:44.400,1:07:48.000
use those apis like if you actually like

1:07:46.640,1:07:49.760
inspected like

1:07:48.000,1:07:51.680
in the browser you'll see those api

1:07:49.760,1:07:53.280
calls so you could technically use them

1:07:51.680,1:07:54.799
you could actually like they weren't

1:07:53.280,1:07:56.799
documented but you could go and go in

1:07:54.799,1:07:58.799
there and use them so

1:07:56.799,1:08:00.079
even yeah even even functionality that's

1:07:58.799,1:08:01.760
like maybe

1:08:00.079,1:08:03.680
maybe part of a different like product

1:08:01.760,1:08:04.079
journey was api first as well just

1:08:03.680,1:08:07.520
because

1:08:04.079,1:08:09.119
like everything was built as an api nice

1:08:07.520,1:08:11.359
nice which shopify might have as well

1:08:09.119,1:08:13.680
but like again it's sort of how do you

1:08:11.359,1:08:14.400
how do you externalize those that could

1:08:13.680,1:08:16.640
be

1:08:14.400,1:08:19.120
a challenge i think we have a show title

1:08:16.640,1:08:22.000
here everything was built as an api

1:08:19.120,1:08:23.120
um well this was uh this is a fun chat

1:08:22.000,1:08:26.319
um

1:08:23.120,1:08:28.880
what uh any last things you want to uh

1:08:26.319,1:08:30.159
point people to resources or where

1:08:28.880,1:08:31.839
people can find out

1:08:30.159,1:08:33.279
more information about you find you

1:08:31.839,1:08:34.799
online where's the best place to find

1:08:33.279,1:08:36.719
you online that kind of thing

1:08:34.799,1:08:38.000
uh i guess i guess the best place is

1:08:36.719,1:08:39.440
linkedin that's probably where

1:08:38.000,1:08:41.279
i'm most active like i didn't used to

1:08:39.440,1:08:43.040
use linkedin but now now i do like seems

1:08:41.279,1:08:44.000
like a lot of people on there that kind

1:08:43.040,1:08:46.000
of

1:08:44.000,1:08:47.759
want to like find out about things uh

1:08:46.000,1:08:48.880
compared to like other social networks

1:08:47.759,1:08:50.319
i'm on twitter too but not

1:08:48.880,1:08:51.759
sort of active on there so that's sort

1:08:50.319,1:08:52.719
of the first port of call i kind of try

1:08:51.759,1:08:55.040
and feature like

1:08:52.719,1:08:56.239
interesting like posts that i put out

1:08:55.040,1:08:59.440
there um

1:08:56.239,1:09:00.880
so adam stork on linkedin um and

1:08:59.440,1:09:02.319
yeah like i think that's sort of the

1:09:00.880,1:09:03.600
best place to find me there's like one

1:09:02.319,1:09:05.279
other thing we didn't get to talk about

1:09:03.600,1:09:07.359
and i don't know it's like dropped off

1:09:05.279,1:09:09.120
of my like featured content thing now

1:09:07.359,1:09:10.799
uh there's like the commerce graph which

1:09:09.120,1:09:12.159
is again abstract

1:09:10.799,1:09:14.000
i'll send you the yeah we can get that

1:09:12.159,1:09:15.040
in we can get that in i i don't have

1:09:14.000,1:09:16.880
that in front of me i don't i don't

1:09:15.040,1:09:18.000
remember it offhand sorry about that

1:09:16.880,1:09:20.480
i don't know i don't know if you know

1:09:18.000,1:09:21.600
like graph theory and like facebook and

1:09:20.480,1:09:22.400
social graphs and that kind of little

1:09:21.600,1:09:24.319
bit yeah

1:09:22.400,1:09:26.159
yeah yeah i kind of like applied the

1:09:24.319,1:09:28.319
same line of thinking to the commerce

1:09:26.159,1:09:29.440
like space so instead of like focusing

1:09:28.319,1:09:31.279
on features

1:09:29.440,1:09:32.799
the value is in the connection

1:09:31.279,1:09:34.000
connections between those features and

1:09:32.799,1:09:36.319
helps us describe

1:09:34.000,1:09:37.600
oh that's interesting basically you can

1:09:36.319,1:09:39.759
you can describe headless you can

1:09:37.600,1:09:41.120
describe omnichannel they can describe

1:09:39.759,1:09:43.520
like different customer journeys and

1:09:41.120,1:09:44.960
checkouts and complexities and things

1:09:43.520,1:09:46.239
because it's all like how the data

1:09:44.960,1:09:48.159
relates to each other that's a commerce

1:09:46.239,1:09:50.000
platform

1:09:48.159,1:09:51.600
however how the data flows through

1:09:50.000,1:09:52.400
checkout or you know on the behind the

1:09:51.600,1:09:53.359
scenes or

1:09:52.400,1:09:55.600
on the front desk that's a really

1:09:53.359,1:09:56.640
interesting idea yeah that is a very

1:09:55.600,1:09:58.480
interesting idea

1:09:56.640,1:10:00.320
um because so much of it is you're

1:09:58.480,1:10:01.920
connecting uh

1:10:00.320,1:10:03.199
data from one thing to another one app

1:10:01.920,1:10:04.320
to another you're syncing you're

1:10:03.199,1:10:06.480
importing

1:10:04.320,1:10:08.159
and there's a lot of value created in

1:10:06.480,1:10:10.159
those those uh

1:10:08.159,1:10:11.520
edges right between the between the

1:10:10.159,1:10:13.520
nodes and the graph

1:10:11.520,1:10:14.960
i also kind of why headsets i guess

1:10:13.520,1:10:16.719
creates like a

1:10:14.960,1:10:18.159
a solution that is greater than the sum

1:10:16.719,1:10:19.440
of its parts because you have kind of a

1:10:18.159,1:10:20.960
compounding effect

1:10:19.440,1:10:22.880
all these best-in-class services are

1:10:20.960,1:10:27.199
better than a generic

1:10:22.880,1:10:27.199
like mediocre monolith basically

1:10:27.440,1:10:31.120
but that kind of like like like a good

1:10:29.760,1:10:34.159
cms right like a good

1:10:31.120,1:10:36.320
headless cms um

1:10:34.159,1:10:37.520
it's both right it's the node like the

1:10:36.320,1:10:39.040
better the node

1:10:37.520,1:10:40.880
like if you have a really good node for

1:10:39.040,1:10:42.480
your cms management that's just easy to

1:10:40.880,1:10:44.800
use and friendly and

1:10:42.480,1:10:46.719
beautiful then then your solution is

1:10:44.800,1:10:49.199
more powerful and then you want the edge

1:10:46.719,1:10:50.640
to also be powerful too so that it can

1:10:49.199,1:10:53.040
integrate everything everywhere it needs

1:10:50.640,1:10:53.760
to go but it feels like it's kind of

1:10:53.040,1:10:55.280
both

1:10:53.760,1:10:57.520
which i guess is the point of a graph

1:10:55.280,1:10:58.480
it's both yeah you've got the nodes and

1:10:57.520,1:11:00.000
you got the

1:10:58.480,1:11:01.520
the connections between between the

1:11:00.000,1:11:02.880
nodes yeah people

1:11:01.520,1:11:04.480
focus on the nodes and again it's kind

1:11:02.880,1:11:04.880
of the feature comparison stuff but

1:11:04.480,1:11:07.679
really

1:11:04.880,1:11:08.320
it's right connections that are powerful

1:11:07.679,1:11:10.719
too

1:11:08.320,1:11:12.719
and where value is like really created

1:11:10.719,1:11:15.120
like moving stuff from one system to

1:11:12.719,1:11:17.760
another so that it can be used in a more

1:11:15.120,1:11:18.640
optimal fashion um but yeah that's

1:11:17.760,1:11:19.760
that's what i

1:11:18.640,1:11:22.000
i would recommend i think it's on the

1:11:19.760,1:11:23.840
elastic path website now commerce graph

1:11:22.000,1:11:25.840
blog post i might do a redux i had like

1:11:23.840,1:11:27.199
a i've got like a whole space sort of

1:11:25.840,1:11:29.040
mapped out in like a grid

1:11:27.199,1:11:30.880
is like it's like a periodic table of

1:11:29.040,1:11:32.159
like commerce features and things

1:11:30.880,1:11:33.760
like that because it's like well there's

1:11:32.159,1:11:35.440
not i keep like just sort of documenting

1:11:33.760,1:11:36.719
stuff like in like diagrams because like

1:11:35.440,1:11:39.040
otherwise i'll just like rattle around

1:11:36.719,1:11:40.560
in my head but hopefully i can

1:11:39.040,1:11:42.640
train like at least post one interesting

1:11:40.560,1:11:45.920
thing like a week or a month

1:11:42.640,1:11:49.600
nice people people fun yeah i love the

1:11:45.920,1:11:49.600
stuff you're posting so keep it coming