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#78 The Commerce Magic Roundabout w/ Co-Founder Of Headless Commerce Platform Moltin | @AJSturrock

Adam Sturrock co-founded Moltin in 2013, one of the first headless eCommerce platforms, before headless was in the technology ecosystem vernacular. We went on to attract 1000s of developers and businesses to our platform, raising over $10m in angel and VC funding, before successfully exiting Moltin in late 2019.

Transcript
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where the netlify founder had a debate

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with the wordpress founder

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i didn't i instigated that on twitter i

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was like tagging them both

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yes come on like we're gonna have a

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discussion about this oh really i think

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like

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any sort of like a right tool for the

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job

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[Music]

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adam how you doing buddy i'm good thanks

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how are you

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good good good doing good so um

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how uh first off uh we're gonna talk

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about micro services

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and you know headless molten all sorts

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of stuff that

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should be super interesting um but uh to

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get things started how's everything

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going you know in the time of covid

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you managing to stay sane um if so how

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you know i guess um surprisingly well i

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guess

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i came back from the us like a week

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before lockdown

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uh here in the uk so like kind of just

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snuck in there um but

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obviously with like e-commerce space

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kind of booming

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in the midst of all the the turmoil yeah

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i guess it's kind of a good thing for

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sort of our industry at least

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um books out to the end of the year yeah

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clients and stuff so yeah that's cool

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yeah it's yeah that's good

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yeah it's uh i think the our industry is

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doing

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well obviously so it's just kind of a

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matter of

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staying sane personally and you know

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like

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not you know not being too how what what

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city are you in

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in in the uk so i am in a small village

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like about half an hour from uh

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newcastle it's called

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rothbury oh okay so in the countryside

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oh that's awesome very very very

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isolated like given this

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yeah we've had like a handful of cases

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in the village and

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yeah i mean that's a lot out of the

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thousands but it's not yeah anything is

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bad

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gotcha right so you're probably getting

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outside a lot

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and or going yeah there's like this

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little sheep in the field behind the

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house and

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nice i love it really really scenic

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place people come here for like holidays

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and

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vacations and things that's awesome man

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yeah we we back up to a ranch

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and so there's cows that will that will

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graze there from time to time and our

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kids get all excited

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and they'll run out there and look at

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the clown and stuff

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my my uh my one-year-old uh he's like

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looks like barring at the sheep

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like yelling oh yeah yeah

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how did when did you how did you decide

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to to move there

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is it like uh so my yes my wife grew up

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here

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so her mum uh lives here still so where

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that's where we currently are located as

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we wait to buy a house

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like actually the entire like housing

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market is tipped upside down

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everyone moving out of the cities like

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all the properties brought up

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so we're kind of waiting probably until

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about april like

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buy somewhere gotcha gotcha i don't know

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what's going on with the housing market

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it's so strange like

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we're in the suburbs and prices have

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gone

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i think they've stayed the same a little

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bit or like i have a buddy that said he

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sold his house like that

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yeah most people are things go like

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within like one or two days we got to

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see one and then it's gone

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yeah yeah it's kind of insane yeah

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so and it seems like overall the housing

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market really hasn't gone down anywhere

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near as much as it should

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based on how heavily the economy's been

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impacted and stuff but

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it's just it's weird it doesn't it's

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like kind of i guess

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i guess it might depend on sort of like

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again like the geographic like locations

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i feel like cities maybe hit a little

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bit harder but like

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at least in the rural rural areas where

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people are kind of work remotely and so

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people are starting to move out of the

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states and realizing they don't need to

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be

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yeah making those intensity commutes

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yeah

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how long have you been working uh

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remotely

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um i guess since like

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april i guess march april yeah oh as

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soon as i kind of go back from from

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boston

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yeah yeah yeah so the boston thing this

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brings us into

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uh the molten acquisition was that what

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that was

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that trip was for so huge

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congratulations i don't know whether it

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should like go like

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backwards in time or whether we should

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like start from the beginning yeah

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i like to just i like to jump around but

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feel free to

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yeah feel free to start you know to take

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it any any direction you want but

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um i saw that you know you built molten

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for about

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seven years and it got acquired recently

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by elastic path

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so huge congrats on that that's exciting

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um and so actually first off i was

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curious about the name molten because

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it's such a cool name but i was like

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how does that relate to commerce or

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headless commerce i want to know the

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origin story there

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um so i used to work at an agency as a

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developer

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like eight years ago i guess uh we're

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working on a

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i'm not sure if you've heard about pyro

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cms we built uh fire sale

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which was like the go-to plugin somewhat

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somewhat familiar

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yeah we sort of like we would work with

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like magento and shopify and stuff and

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we decided to sort of build a plug-in

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for the cms that we were using at the

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time

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and then came across all sort of the

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same problems as magento like building

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an e-commerce

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even even though it was a plug-in like

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the same sort of issues as a platform

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right like maintenance and updates that

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kind of thing so we

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we thought why not the same thing like

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but as

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apis like before like headless was

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really a thing and

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so that continued that sort of fire

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theme from sort of fire sale to

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molten and then also from us from the

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sense of sort of what we sort of

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imagined

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the e-commerce apis sort of feeling like

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in terms of like malleable light lava or

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you could sort of mold it to whatever

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your requirements

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sort of were so yeah cool name it took

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us a while to get there

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together.com but that's exceptional but

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you can't okay

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so but you can't mold lava like you can

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like

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it's like it's like squidgy like malibu

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a little bit you can like

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put it in and then and then and then

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it'll set and it's like rock hard and

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it's like really good

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okay okay okay so i would think of it

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more as like less of lava and more of

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like molten metal

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like if you're a black oh yeah that's

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nothing yeah you bring it into that mold

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whereas

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like lava volcanoes is like totally

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uncontrolled their things are going

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every which way

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uh that is that's really i mean that's

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also like that's a good analogy for a

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star tip anyway

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so yeah yeah it works on many different

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levels

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the analogy works on lots of levels

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that's cool i like that

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um so how did you get so far

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ahead of the curve on headless

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um yeah we when when when molten was

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founded in 2013 headless was like not

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even

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in there i guess it's like you were

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definitely in the headless before it was

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cool

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right it was even like cold headless

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yeah it was

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uh we were looking at like stripe and

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twilio

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at the time we thought like wouldn't it

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be cool for an e-commerce api like

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turning all the ecom platform

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and making it accessible uh obviously

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like

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javascript frameworks and things didn't

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really exist back then you had like

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jquery and stuff there wasn't any

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framework so to speak um but yeah we

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thought it wouldn't be great like to be

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able to just

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to unshackle that front and from the

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back end um and then you could sort of

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we would maintain the back end and you

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could do what you want on the front end

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and that will sort of take away a lot of

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the the maintenance headaches

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whilst at the same time not getting sort

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of as locked into

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uh shopify templates and so you could

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just bring your own

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tool belt basically right um

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and like like surprisingly we went

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through like an accelerator like

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straight off the back

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of sort of founding the company called

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ignite 100 like based in newcastle

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uh and then i remember that accelerator

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we were just building products like we

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were just building like

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imagine three guys from newcastle jamie

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chris and i just building

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like features like like an endless list

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of features but trying to get the

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the product car checkout order sort of

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critical path yeah

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nailed this yeah yeah that was

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and i think it was like it was like it

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was like stuck together with like php

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right right and are you a developer

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yourself

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um i used to be i understand all the

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concepts and all the sort of the

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abstract thoughts behind it so i haven't

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stayed up to date with like

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guys just like jump back from i

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understand what they are and i've like

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dabbled

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yeah yeah yeah i kind of i guess i was

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the most commercially minded of the

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three

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founders all those developers so i kind

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of right went into

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like sales and marketing side right our

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sort of thesis was very much

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i guess a developer go to market so like

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scratch your niche sort of business

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right on paper it all makes sense for an

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agency to kind of just pick up a set of

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apis and then just sort of

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build like whatever the client asks for

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we found like

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trying to like mold like magento or

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shopify to the client's requirements was

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uh like like hitting our head against

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the desk sometimes it was like really

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challenging you end up like tampering

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with some like plugin or something and

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then you

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suddenly like have its own like

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maintenance like yeah path

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yeah multiplying like a hundred or like

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200 and then like

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yeah you're in for a world of pain a

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world of hurt

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yeah yeah i saw the um i saw the

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post on the the winchester house

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um the monolith mansion which i thought

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was a great

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it's a good analogy yeah it's a very uh

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clever uh phrasing and a very clever use

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of the how it started and how it's going

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meme as well

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i love i love me so they feel like a

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good template to kind of laugh it was

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it was perfect yeah uh and when it comes

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to headless right

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like how does a merchant determine if

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they're

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a good fit for it right how do you weigh

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those trade-offs of having to because

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the point of the post was

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you're going to start with this thing

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then you're going to add 15 different

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plugins and then you're not or

0:09:45.839,0:09:49.279
or you're not going to use 80 of the

0:09:47.760,0:09:50.480
features that platform gives you that

0:09:49.279,0:09:51.680
you paid for because you thought you

0:09:50.480,0:09:53.040
might need them and then you're gonna

0:09:51.680,0:09:55.839
need to re-platform

0:09:53.040,0:09:56.640
so like how does how does a merchant um

0:09:55.839,0:09:58.320
kind of weigh

0:09:56.640,0:10:01.040
all those trade-offs right headless you

0:09:58.320,0:10:02.880
get simplicity probably faster

0:10:01.040,0:10:04.560
uh more custom things like that but you

0:10:02.880,0:10:05.839
have to roll a lot of your own

0:10:04.560,0:10:08.959
functionality

0:10:05.839,0:10:12.079
um so how do you think about um that

0:10:08.959,0:10:13.760
that decision in weighing trade-offs

0:10:12.079,0:10:15.440
um i'm like i guess i'm a big believer

0:10:13.760,0:10:17.920
in sort of right tool for the job

0:10:15.440,0:10:18.640
so like a magento or shopify is going to

0:10:17.920,0:10:20.480
be good

0:10:18.640,0:10:22.720
for certain types of businesses and then

0:10:20.480,0:10:25.279
if you think about sort of what they're

0:10:22.720,0:10:25.920
kind of good for um it's very sort of i

0:10:25.279,0:10:27.440
guess

0:10:25.920,0:10:29.279
i kind of call them like cookie cutters

0:10:27.440,0:10:31.040
like this the business is very sort of

0:10:29.279,0:10:32.000
standardized very sort of simplistic in

0:10:31.040,0:10:33.680
some ways

0:10:32.000,0:10:36.000
and as soon as you so begin to deviate

0:10:33.680,0:10:38.480
from that sort of tried and true

0:10:36.000,0:10:40.079
sort of standard like grid based website

0:10:38.480,0:10:42.959
and you kind of start to go towards more

0:10:40.079,0:10:44.800
either experiential type things or if

0:10:42.959,0:10:47.040
there's sort of any sort of complexity

0:10:44.800,0:10:48.640
in the the business model they're good

0:10:47.040,0:10:49.680
sort of telltale signs from where maybe

0:10:48.640,0:10:51.920
headless is a good fit

0:10:49.680,0:10:54.560
because you do take sort of all these

0:10:51.920,0:10:55.920
headless apis off the shelf

0:10:54.560,0:10:57.519
and then you sort of wrapper them with

0:10:55.920,0:10:57.760
some like logic to kind of like get it

0:10:57.519,0:11:00.320
all

0:10:57.760,0:11:01.360
to work together in that sort of

0:11:00.320,0:11:02.880
lightweight wrapper

0:11:01.360,0:11:04.399
you can sort of tailor it to your like

0:11:02.880,0:11:06.880
business model perhaps

0:11:04.399,0:11:07.600
there is also i guess an element of

0:11:06.880,0:11:10.399
technical

0:11:07.600,0:11:10.800
uh competency on the team that is sort

0:11:10.399,0:11:13.440
of

0:11:10.800,0:11:14.160
implementing and selecting the

0:11:13.440,0:11:16.640
technology

0:11:14.160,0:11:17.360
so if it's like a mom and pop like just

0:11:16.640,0:11:18.880
starting out

0:11:17.360,0:11:20.959
like headless is probably not a good fit

0:11:18.880,0:11:22.320
like maybe three four years from now

0:11:20.959,0:11:23.760
like when headless is sort of just a

0:11:22.320,0:11:25.200
behind-the-scenes type thing

0:11:23.760,0:11:26.560
where everyone is sort of powered with

0:11:25.200,0:11:26.959
jump stack and stuff it sort of it

0:11:26.560,0:11:29.519
becomes

0:11:26.959,0:11:30.959
kind of a mute point but like right now

0:11:29.519,0:11:32.560
i sort of recommend like big commerce or

0:11:30.959,0:11:34.240
shopify or webflow or

0:11:32.560,0:11:35.760
something more visual that someone just

0:11:34.240,0:11:37.440
kind of get up and running right

0:11:35.760,0:11:38.880
whereas i guess sort of when you get

0:11:37.440,0:11:39.839
into the mid market and especially the

0:11:38.880,0:11:42.079
enterprise like

0:11:39.839,0:11:44.480
that's where sort of headless and that's

0:11:42.079,0:11:46.959
really starts to sort of

0:11:44.480,0:11:47.839
you benefit from moving that way right

0:11:46.959,0:11:51.200
would you say

0:11:47.839,0:11:52.639
that um so like

0:11:51.200,0:11:54.959
would you say that almost across the

0:11:52.639,0:11:55.440
board then because mid market is like

0:11:54.959,0:11:57.279
this

0:11:55.440,0:11:58.639
this market that like magenta like i i

0:11:57.279,0:11:59.680
sort of come from the magenta world and

0:11:58.639,0:12:02.240
magento is

0:11:59.680,0:12:04.079
all about the mid market and shopify

0:12:02.240,0:12:05.200
plus is attacking the mid market as well

0:12:04.079,0:12:08.639
the mid market is this

0:12:05.200,0:12:11.760
kind of interesting valuable amorphous

0:12:08.639,0:12:12.720
space that um people are trying to serve

0:12:11.760,0:12:15.040
right so

0:12:12.720,0:12:16.639
the mom and pop no technical no in-house

0:12:15.040,0:12:17.600
technical team like i forget about

0:12:16.639,0:12:19.760
headless right

0:12:17.600,0:12:21.360
if you are a mid-market whatever the

0:12:19.760,0:12:24.000
hell that means

0:12:21.360,0:12:25.200
is it fair to say that most of the time

0:12:24.000,0:12:27.440
headless

0:12:25.200,0:12:28.480
could be the right tool for the job for

0:12:27.440,0:12:31.040
you or

0:12:28.480,0:12:32.160
uh you know how should if i'm a

0:12:31.040,0:12:34.079
mid-market

0:12:32.160,0:12:36.240
wholesaler retailer distributor or

0:12:34.079,0:12:37.600
whatever how would you think about that

0:12:36.240,0:12:39.760
decision for them

0:12:37.600,0:12:41.519
i guess it also it depends on what

0:12:39.760,0:12:42.880
you're trying to kind of solve for

0:12:41.519,0:12:44.399
as well so you can kind of do like a

0:12:42.880,0:12:45.519
hybrid approach where you maybe take

0:12:44.399,0:12:47.839
shopify

0:12:45.519,0:12:49.600
and then you do like headless like

0:12:47.839,0:12:51.200
storefront on in front of that and

0:12:49.600,0:12:53.120
you'll get all the like the speed

0:12:51.200,0:12:54.720
benefits for the website loading fast

0:12:53.120,0:12:56.800
in in the same breath you may end up

0:12:54.720,0:12:59.279
throwing out a lot of what makes shopify

0:12:56.800,0:13:00.079
great because you're kind of making the

0:12:59.279,0:13:01.360
trade off

0:13:00.079,0:13:03.200
and so you end up losing some of the

0:13:01.360,0:13:04.880
plug-ins and nice out-of-the-box

0:13:03.200,0:13:06.399
features and functionality

0:13:04.880,0:13:08.959
so that's kind of what one sort of

0:13:06.399,0:13:11.839
approach i would say sort of does work

0:13:08.959,0:13:12.959
um but yeah for in terms of sort of

0:13:11.839,0:13:16.399
trying to

0:13:12.959,0:13:18.560
identify is headless right for me um

0:13:16.399,0:13:19.760
it really comes down to i guess like

0:13:18.560,0:13:20.639
business model what you're trying to

0:13:19.760,0:13:21.839
achieve

0:13:20.639,0:13:23.360
the channels that you're selling through

0:13:21.839,0:13:24.079
obviously the big one like if it's just

0:13:23.360,0:13:25.440
a website

0:13:24.079,0:13:27.680
maybe shopify is okay if you're trying

0:13:25.440,0:13:30.959
to do some more like

0:13:27.680,0:13:32.480
iot voice type thing or uh

0:13:30.959,0:13:34.000
in-store experience that isn't a

0:13:32.480,0:13:35.920
standard point of sale like

0:13:34.000,0:13:37.760
those types of experiences like sort of

0:13:35.920,0:13:39.680
on the edge they're quite sort of

0:13:37.760,0:13:41.440
useful and powerful maybe it's i also

0:13:39.680,0:13:42.800
look at it as um

0:13:41.440,0:13:44.880
i guess so if you look at like the

0:13:42.800,0:13:45.680
shopify checkout it's quite a standard

0:13:44.880,0:13:48.160
process

0:13:45.680,0:13:49.680
if you have any sort of customization

0:13:48.160,0:13:50.560
inside of that checkout that's a

0:13:49.680,0:13:52.560
telltale sign

0:13:50.560,0:13:53.760
so if you're having say like in the us

0:13:52.560,0:13:55.519
for example if you're selling like

0:13:53.760,0:13:58.000
firearms or like marijuana

0:13:55.519,0:13:58.880
or like cbd like medical medical

0:13:58.000,0:14:00.320
companies that kind of thing where

0:13:58.880,0:14:02.560
you're adding verification steps to

0:14:00.320,0:14:05.839
verify someone's identity or something

0:14:02.560,0:14:07.600
or maybe you have multiple participants

0:14:05.839,0:14:08.720
in the checkout it's not just the seller

0:14:07.600,0:14:10.000
and the buyer maybe it's

0:14:08.720,0:14:12.079
there's some sort of assistance

0:14:10.000,0:14:13.040
throughout that checkout process

0:14:12.079,0:14:14.399
maybe you're selling some like

0:14:13.040,0:14:17.120
customized products that requires

0:14:14.399,0:14:19.600
someone like measure or like

0:14:17.120,0:14:21.440
input variables alongside custom name

0:14:19.600,0:14:22.320
engraving on a mug or something like

0:14:21.440,0:14:25.040
that

0:14:22.320,0:14:25.760
i sort of like boil it down to like

0:14:25.040,0:14:27.839
there's like

0:14:25.760,0:14:29.600
there's an axes that people sort of

0:14:27.839,0:14:31.199
exist on and so the platforms are

0:14:29.600,0:14:32.959
applied to that axis of like

0:14:31.199,0:14:34.399
on one end you have speed and that's

0:14:32.959,0:14:36.399
like that's like shopify like

0:14:34.399,0:14:37.839
go really fast and the other end is

0:14:36.399,0:14:40.399
control and that's sort of like

0:14:37.839,0:14:41.680
control like everything about the

0:14:40.399,0:14:42.880
technology and how that applies to your

0:14:41.680,0:14:44.800
business requirements

0:14:42.880,0:14:46.480
and you choose one or the other uh like

0:14:44.800,0:14:48.160
magento obviously exists more towards

0:14:46.480,0:14:49.519
the control angle there's like diy on

0:14:48.160,0:14:50.079
the far extreme where you control

0:14:49.519,0:14:52.160
everything

0:14:50.079,0:14:53.440
which it's gonna cost you uh headless is

0:14:52.160,0:14:54.480
probably somewhere like similar to

0:14:53.440,0:14:56.800
magento in terms of

0:14:54.480,0:14:58.160
maybe a bit more into having to assemble

0:14:56.800,0:15:01.279
things to yourself

0:14:58.160,0:15:02.880
right yeah it's uh

0:15:01.279,0:15:04.320
yeah it's it's a it's a complicated

0:15:02.880,0:15:07.600
decision i think at the end of the day

0:15:04.320,0:15:08.800
like when you talk about um uh you know

0:15:07.600,0:15:10.959
like you mentioned having

0:15:08.800,0:15:12.720
you know sort of a light logic wrapper

0:15:10.959,0:15:14.000
on top of some of these apis to tie

0:15:12.720,0:15:16.000
things together

0:15:14.000,0:15:17.600
um how would you compare i recently

0:15:16.000,0:15:19.199
found out about commerce tools i didn't

0:15:17.600,0:15:21.839
really know anything about it

0:15:19.199,0:15:22.639
it's like massive i mean the customers

0:15:21.839,0:15:27.440
that they have

0:15:22.639,0:15:28.880
are humongous um and i was uh looking at

0:15:27.440,0:15:30.639
some of their api coverage and they're

0:15:28.880,0:15:31.440
obviously like like shopify has a cool

0:15:30.639,0:15:32.720
api

0:15:31.440,0:15:35.680
and stuff like that but it seems like

0:15:32.720,0:15:39.440
commerce tools well they're api first

0:15:35.680,0:15:41.759
and and so i'm curious have you dug into

0:15:39.440,0:15:42.079
the differences between those apis like

0:15:41.759,0:15:44.240
for

0:15:42.079,0:15:46.639
specific projects and like how would you

0:15:44.240,0:15:48.720
how would you compare them

0:15:46.639,0:15:50.560
yeah so i guess i got that sort of

0:15:48.720,0:15:51.519
caveat this week we competed against

0:15:50.560,0:15:55.120
commerce tools

0:15:51.519,0:15:56.639
at moulton in mid 2019 right moved

0:15:55.120,0:15:58.800
away from the developer go to market

0:15:56.639,0:16:00.160
multiple enterprise which is i guess

0:15:58.800,0:16:02.160
where there's more sort of product

0:16:00.160,0:16:02.880
market fit for headless at least at

0:16:02.160,0:16:04.880
least right now

0:16:02.880,0:16:06.560
in terms of maturity of the technology

0:16:04.880,0:16:08.959
right um

0:16:06.560,0:16:10.880
so so i guess like there are differences

0:16:08.959,0:16:12.399
in the like i guess the shopify apis

0:16:10.880,0:16:15.759
were sort of

0:16:12.399,0:16:18.000
designed for plugins for the the wider

0:16:15.759,0:16:19.680
ecosystem to tap into as opposed to

0:16:18.000,0:16:22.000
sort of being api first where you build

0:16:19.680,0:16:23.040
these front ends yeah whatever the

0:16:22.000,0:16:24.720
experience is sort of

0:16:23.040,0:16:26.480
built on top and it's not just the the

0:16:24.720,0:16:27.680
front end is one part of it

0:16:26.480,0:16:29.360
the other side of the api is obviously

0:16:27.680,0:16:30.160
the back office and the integrations and

0:16:29.360,0:16:32.480
the data

0:16:30.160,0:16:33.360
flowing from various different systems

0:16:32.480,0:16:35.519
so

0:16:33.360,0:16:36.880
um like for example like commerce told

0:16:35.519,0:16:38.240
you maybe you would yes you use it for

0:16:36.880,0:16:40.399
like car and check out maybe

0:16:38.240,0:16:41.680
you integrate a pim for example maybe

0:16:40.399,0:16:44.320
you already have a pim

0:16:41.680,0:16:45.839
um you've got more complex needs as a

0:16:44.320,0:16:47.680
larger company you may be managing

0:16:45.839,0:16:48.959
hundreds of thousands of products

0:16:47.680,0:16:50.720
and that maybe shopify is not going to

0:16:48.959,0:16:52.160
scale to that point where you have that

0:16:50.720,0:16:54.320
large of a catalog

0:16:52.160,0:16:55.279
um so like i would say it's not just

0:16:54.320,0:16:57.440
commerce tools

0:16:55.279,0:16:58.800
um when you look at sort of a headless

0:16:57.440,0:17:00.240
implementation you're gonna end up with

0:16:58.800,0:17:01.600
some sort of storefront and you're gonna

0:17:00.240,0:17:03.759
probably end up with

0:17:01.600,0:17:05.360
a search provider like algolia or

0:17:03.759,0:17:07.039
constructor and you're going to have

0:17:05.360,0:17:09.120
headless cms perhaps in there as well so

0:17:07.039,0:17:10.559
you end up with sort of a consortium

0:17:09.120,0:17:12.160
of providers to create the whole

0:17:10.559,0:17:14.240
solution um

0:17:12.160,0:17:15.600
commercials is just one i guess one

0:17:14.240,0:17:16.079
important part of that but there are

0:17:15.600,0:17:17.600
other

0:17:16.079,0:17:19.679
things that kind of create a rounded

0:17:17.600,0:17:21.839
solution right that's one of the guesses

0:17:19.679,0:17:24.240
the challenges of headless is sort of

0:17:21.839,0:17:25.919
orchestrating all those things right

0:17:24.240,0:17:27.919
in terms of guess how you do that you

0:17:25.919,0:17:29.280
don't have like shopify has plugins and

0:17:27.919,0:17:30.559
you have like the liquid templating

0:17:29.280,0:17:33.840
engine so you learn those

0:17:30.559,0:17:35.360
proprietary ways of doing things whereas

0:17:33.840,0:17:37.360
with commerce tools and with any

0:17:35.360,0:17:39.760
headless like pure headless

0:17:37.360,0:17:41.200
api first product you sort of bring your

0:17:39.760,0:17:42.640
own toolbelt so instead of

0:17:41.200,0:17:44.320
right learning a framework or being

0:17:42.640,0:17:44.720
certified in something you just bring

0:17:44.320,0:17:47.760
like

0:17:44.720,0:17:49.039
node.js developers or whatever whatever

0:17:47.760,0:17:49.520
whatever the programming language of

0:17:49.039,0:17:51.200
choice

0:17:49.520,0:17:52.480
is you bring that in and then you just

0:17:51.200,0:17:53.600
maybe you're writing some serverless

0:17:52.480,0:17:55.360
functions

0:17:53.600,0:17:56.799
uh maybe you're doing some javascript on

0:17:55.360,0:17:58.320
the front end it's like very

0:17:56.799,0:18:00.240
very lightweight you can do like a lot

0:17:58.320,0:18:03.360
in like 50 lines of code right

0:18:00.240,0:18:04.240
right right what are um what are some of

0:18:03.360,0:18:06.080
the limits

0:18:04.240,0:18:08.080
on uh like what are some of the

0:18:06.080,0:18:09.919
limitations of shopify as you're scaling

0:18:08.080,0:18:13.120
in the mid market like you mentioned

0:18:09.919,0:18:14.480
if your catalog is too big you know like

0:18:13.120,0:18:15.919
you said something like

0:18:14.480,0:18:17.600
tens of thousands of products i was a

0:18:15.919,0:18:19.760
little surprised that that would

0:18:17.600,0:18:21.840
be hard for but i don't know shopify

0:18:19.760,0:18:24.400
plus very well but i'm trying sort of

0:18:21.840,0:18:25.200
starting to understand better i guess it

0:18:24.400,0:18:27.200
depends on

0:18:25.200,0:18:28.880
it's partly to do with the ui so there

0:18:27.200,0:18:31.280
are ui limitations

0:18:28.880,0:18:33.360
um but it's sort of if you look at if

0:18:31.280,0:18:34.000
you compare like a pim tool and you look

0:18:33.360,0:18:35.760
at like maybe

0:18:34.000,0:18:37.760
salsa fire or pimco or something like

0:18:35.760,0:18:39.760
they've got dedicated interfaces

0:18:37.760,0:18:41.440
where you where your you know your

0:18:39.760,0:18:42.080
merchandising team is basically in there

0:18:41.440,0:18:44.320
right

0:18:42.080,0:18:45.679
like building out the catalog and maybe

0:18:44.320,0:18:47.280
bulk importing things

0:18:45.679,0:18:49.200
and there's like a lot of control inside

0:18:47.280,0:18:50.799
of that right um

0:18:49.200,0:18:52.240
if i can do it but it's like shopify is

0:18:50.799,0:18:54.799
not a pin for sure

0:18:52.240,0:18:55.679
like so it's how many operations you can

0:18:54.799,0:18:58.000
sort of run

0:18:55.679,0:18:58.960
sort of per per second as well if you're

0:18:58.000,0:19:00.559
trying to

0:18:58.960,0:19:02.320
update things like yes you could

0:19:00.559,0:19:03.679
generate multiple api keys inside of

0:19:02.320,0:19:05.520
shopify but then you're kind of like

0:19:03.679,0:19:06.559
working around the apis rather than

0:19:05.520,0:19:08.160
working with them

0:19:06.559,0:19:10.480
right the ends of credit a lot more

0:19:08.160,0:19:13.120
overhead right get stuff done

0:19:10.480,0:19:13.600
right right so yeah that's the part of

0:19:13.120,0:19:16.720
the

0:19:13.600,0:19:18.080
setup i guess tediousness yeah

0:19:16.720,0:19:20.640
yeah it's like the devil's in the

0:19:18.080,0:19:23.039
details on all these things like until

0:19:20.640,0:19:24.559
you've really adopted you know your your

0:19:23.039,0:19:26.400
stack for your especially if you're a

0:19:24.559,0:19:28.240
decent sized organization

0:19:26.400,0:19:29.919
and you've rolled it out to your b2b

0:19:28.240,0:19:30.640
sales reps and your customer service

0:19:29.919,0:19:32.960
team and

0:19:30.640,0:19:34.080
uh your catalog management you don't

0:19:32.960,0:19:35.200
know what

0:19:34.080,0:19:37.200
all those issues are that you're going

0:19:35.200,0:19:38.559
to hit until you've kind of run into

0:19:37.200,0:19:40.400
them you know yeah

0:19:38.559,0:19:41.679
i guess i guess that's kind of one of

0:19:40.400,0:19:44.080
the like

0:19:41.679,0:19:45.520
even even like i kind of came across

0:19:44.080,0:19:46.480
that in my agency days like that would

0:19:45.520,0:19:47.840
be like one of the big

0:19:46.480,0:19:49.600
sort of bottlenecks again getting the

0:19:47.840,0:19:50.400
project like to the next stage of

0:19:49.600,0:19:52.320
development

0:19:50.400,0:19:53.679
even even in sort of headless world that

0:19:52.320,0:19:55.120
is still a bottleneck but at least it's

0:19:53.679,0:19:58.320
more transparent up front like

0:19:55.120,0:19:59.200
you're having to solutionize sort of as

0:19:58.320,0:20:01.120
you go into it

0:19:59.200,0:20:02.640
how is how how these things things going

0:20:01.120,0:20:03.280
to come together and maybe that's not

0:20:02.640,0:20:06.240
obvious

0:20:03.280,0:20:07.520
initially but it becomes apparent really

0:20:06.240,0:20:09.360
really quickly

0:20:07.520,0:20:11.679
you haven't have to talk to each other

0:20:09.360,0:20:14.000
and then and then you kind of get into

0:20:11.679,0:20:15.760
sort of each role in the organization

0:20:14.000,0:20:18.240
sort of mapping to a tool

0:20:15.760,0:20:19.039
yeah yeah where do they live day-to-day

0:20:18.240,0:20:20.880
life

0:20:19.039,0:20:22.320
yeah because maybe they don't even know

0:20:20.880,0:20:24.320
that commerce tools or like

0:20:22.320,0:20:26.000
for molten or whatever exists like we

0:20:24.320,0:20:27.520
had some customers that

0:20:26.000,0:20:29.200
just lived in a pimp and an older

0:20:27.520,0:20:30.960
management system and like the cart and

0:20:29.200,0:20:32.080
the checkout and the front website was

0:20:30.960,0:20:34.960
like

0:20:32.080,0:20:35.440
they didn't need to even know about it

0:20:34.960,0:20:37.440
yeah

0:20:35.440,0:20:38.720
it's for when you're used to thinking in

0:20:37.440,0:20:41.679
terms of a monolith

0:20:38.720,0:20:42.000
uh a monolithic architecture it's it's

0:20:41.679,0:20:43.440
like

0:20:42.000,0:20:45.039
it's it's just a different way of

0:20:43.440,0:20:48.080
thinking about

0:20:45.039,0:20:49.760
uh you know the website and and all the

0:20:48.080,0:20:51.760
interfaces to it that everyone's going

0:20:49.760,0:20:53.360
to have i had a buddy that was saying

0:20:51.760,0:20:56.480
like there's no such thing as headless

0:20:53.360,0:20:59.520
it's it's you have one head or you have

0:20:56.480,0:21:02.480
a whole lot of heads it's a terrible

0:20:59.520,0:21:04.080
it's a terrible term

0:21:02.480,0:21:06.159
i don't know who came up with it i don't

0:21:04.080,0:21:06.480
know why it's so stinky but it's somehow

0:21:06.159,0:21:09.360
is

0:21:06.480,0:21:10.400
it's a sticky term that for some reason

0:21:09.360,0:21:13.600
that people

0:21:10.400,0:21:15.840
like like like like cyclops

0:21:13.600,0:21:16.960
cyclops for the monolith like hydra for

0:21:15.840,0:21:18.880
like yeah

0:21:16.960,0:21:20.559
what is tesla's yeah some sort of

0:21:18.880,0:21:24.159
mythical creatures or something

0:21:20.559,0:21:27.280
yeah um how did molten compare

0:21:24.159,0:21:28.960
to or how does molten um compare to

0:21:27.280,0:21:31.840
commerce tools i know you mentioned that

0:21:28.960,0:21:31.840
you compete against them

0:21:32.799,0:21:36.880
so again i guess early on um well

0:21:35.200,0:21:38.799
there's other internal differences

0:21:36.880,0:21:40.400
so commerce tools is largely based on

0:21:38.799,0:21:43.919
java whereas

0:21:40.400,0:21:45.120
molten version 1 was php we did move on

0:21:43.919,0:21:47.520
peeking to v2

0:21:45.120,0:21:48.720
um and we sort of kind of threw away php

0:21:47.520,0:21:51.280
as kind of the requirement

0:21:48.720,0:21:52.320
he became a consortium of microservices

0:21:51.280,0:21:56.000
internally

0:21:52.320,0:21:59.280
right we had go we had uh node

0:21:56.000,0:22:00.559
ruby like we did have a video or

0:21:59.280,0:22:02.480
did you i don't know if you used to go

0:22:00.559,0:22:05.919
but everybody i know that touches

0:22:02.480,0:22:08.400
just like instantly in love with it

0:22:05.919,0:22:10.080
i kind of like each each i don't sort of

0:22:08.400,0:22:11.520
love oh hate any programming language i

0:22:10.080,0:22:13.919
kind of like like them all for

0:22:11.520,0:22:14.720
their quotes best tool for the job yeah

0:22:13.919,0:22:16.159
so

0:22:14.720,0:22:18.640
yeah sort of again again sort of the

0:22:16.159,0:22:20.240
same repeating thing from yeah

0:22:18.640,0:22:21.360
just from the like a platform vendor

0:22:20.240,0:22:22.880
perspective all the way through to like

0:22:21.360,0:22:23.600
languages it's like whichever one works

0:22:22.880,0:22:24.799
best

0:22:23.600,0:22:27.280
that's one of the reasons why we kind of

0:22:24.799,0:22:29.039
moved from like monolithic php

0:22:27.280,0:22:31.120
like service that we had for our apis to

0:22:29.039,0:22:33.679
more macro services on the back end

0:22:31.120,0:22:35.039
it wasn't just because obviously right

0:22:33.679,0:22:36.080
now for the job and for scaling reasons

0:22:35.039,0:22:38.000
and things but also

0:22:36.080,0:22:39.520
like going to a micro service

0:22:38.000,0:22:41.760
architecture internally

0:22:39.520,0:22:43.600
like we would think about how the

0:22:41.760,0:22:44.640
platform was consumed externally as

0:22:43.600,0:22:45.919
micro services

0:22:44.640,0:22:46.880
so there's a little bit of that inside

0:22:45.919,0:22:47.679
of there if you look at sort of how

0:22:46.880,0:22:50.480
commerce tools

0:22:47.679,0:22:51.919
api is it composed versus what was

0:22:50.480,0:22:53.520
molten i can't really speak to kind of

0:22:51.919,0:22:55.280
what is happening to the multi product

0:22:53.520,0:22:56.720
now first acquisition but

0:22:55.280,0:22:58.400
what it was at least i can kind of speak

0:22:56.720,0:23:00.960
to kind of last year

0:22:58.400,0:23:02.240
um sort of the comp the the differences

0:23:00.960,0:23:05.360
and the similarities

0:23:02.240,0:23:06.159
i would also say um we cared sort of

0:23:05.360,0:23:07.760
very heavily

0:23:06.159,0:23:09.280
molten and we spent spent quite a long

0:23:07.760,0:23:11.039
time in the

0:23:09.280,0:23:13.120
sort of trying to understand and sort of

0:23:11.039,0:23:13.520
put together a good developer experience

0:23:13.120,0:23:15.039
like

0:23:13.520,0:23:17.200
we paid a lot of attention to sort of

0:23:15.039,0:23:18.799
the level of abstraction in the apis a

0:23:17.200,0:23:20.240
level of cleanliness

0:23:18.799,0:23:21.919
um so we every time we had like a

0:23:20.240,0:23:23.360
developer kind of compare molten versus

0:23:21.919,0:23:24.960
commas tools it was very much for the

0:23:23.360,0:23:26.000
developer like yes let's use molten

0:23:24.960,0:23:28.000
because it's like

0:23:26.000,0:23:29.120
i'm lazy and i can just pick this one up

0:23:28.000,0:23:30.159
and it's like really easy whereas if you

0:23:29.120,0:23:31.440
look at the commerce tools docs it's

0:23:30.159,0:23:33.039
going to take a little bit more time to

0:23:31.440,0:23:34.320
kind of get gas and get through things

0:23:33.039,0:23:35.679
but they do have

0:23:34.320,0:23:37.600
you know on the other side of that they

0:23:35.679,0:23:39.039
have more granularity more control

0:23:37.600,0:23:40.720
like especially at the enterprise level

0:23:39.039,0:23:42.480
that's really important where you have

0:23:40.720,0:23:44.400
like all these like tiny little like

0:23:42.480,0:23:46.400
levers that you can pull in these tiny

0:23:44.400,0:23:48.559
api requests that you can make to do

0:23:46.400,0:23:50.080
very tiny specific things

0:23:48.559,0:23:51.600
right whereas we were just sort of at a

0:23:50.080,0:23:53.440
more abstract level so

0:23:51.600,0:23:54.720
kind of pros and cons for both um

0:23:53.440,0:23:55.279
they're both sort of very sort of

0:23:54.720,0:23:57.919
similar

0:23:55.279,0:23:58.960
similar yeah yeah that makes sense that

0:23:57.919,0:24:01.840
makes sense

0:23:58.960,0:24:02.240
in the um in the consulting that you do

0:24:01.840,0:24:05.600
uh

0:24:02.240,0:24:07.279
now it seems like you

0:24:05.600,0:24:09.440
have a pretty good like i want to talk

0:24:07.279,0:24:10.960
about the quadrant that you came up with

0:24:09.440,0:24:14.159
which i think is hilarious

0:24:10.960,0:24:15.200
and and insightful um but it seems like

0:24:14.159,0:24:19.039
you have a pretty good

0:24:15.200,0:24:21.039
grasp on a lot of different platforms a

0:24:19.039,0:24:22.880
lot of people end up specializing right

0:24:21.039,0:24:24.320
they're a magento guy they're a shopify

0:24:22.880,0:24:25.919
person

0:24:24.320,0:24:28.960
and it's kind of like the whole

0:24:25.919,0:24:30.880
e-commerce consulting world is becoming

0:24:28.960,0:24:33.760
more multi-platform

0:24:30.880,0:24:34.960
and learning to you know i guess there's

0:24:33.760,0:24:36.960
a lady

0:24:34.960,0:24:38.960
in some ways i have to diversify like

0:24:36.960,0:24:40.640
i'm speaking to a lot of like agencies

0:24:38.960,0:24:41.679
yeah and even plugins that run like

0:24:40.640,0:24:43.039
shopify will become instead of

0:24:41.679,0:24:45.760
diversifying across

0:24:43.039,0:24:46.080
the platforms yes um that's one of the

0:24:45.760,0:24:48.480
things

0:24:46.080,0:24:50.000
is people are having to diversify for

0:24:48.480,0:24:52.640
one reason or another

0:24:50.000,0:24:53.840
um and it's kind of being forced on you

0:24:52.640,0:24:55.120
know like i know a lot of people in the

0:24:53.840,0:24:57.360
magento community that

0:24:55.120,0:24:59.039
they're like back in the day when er all

0:24:57.360,0:24:59.679
you did was magento it was simple

0:24:59.039,0:25:02.000
because

0:24:59.679,0:25:03.200
you just all right magento agency that's

0:25:02.000,0:25:03.840
what we do like we've got the whole

0:25:03.200,0:25:05.200
business on

0:25:03.840,0:25:07.520
yeah yeah build your whole build

0:25:05.200,0:25:10.000
business on it you got a ton of work

0:25:07.520,0:25:11.919
everybody's happy there's issues but

0:25:10.000,0:25:15.039
whatever you know but so

0:25:11.919,0:25:16.400
um do you specialize in certain

0:25:15.039,0:25:18.080
obviously there's certain platforms you

0:25:16.400,0:25:20.159
know maybe better than others

0:25:18.080,0:25:22.080
um but or are you pretty well-rounded as

0:25:20.159,0:25:24.720
far as you can

0:25:22.080,0:25:26.640
let a merchant know i guess for the i

0:25:24.720,0:25:28.320
guess like for the like the big players

0:25:26.640,0:25:29.840
like i'm kind of aware enough of them

0:25:28.320,0:25:30.960
obviously like seven years in the space

0:25:29.840,0:25:32.480
kind of competing against them at

0:25:30.960,0:25:35.360
various points

0:25:32.480,0:25:37.360
um with multi now sort of go to market

0:25:35.360,0:25:39.520
was very noisy like we just attracted

0:25:37.360,0:25:40.960
generic developers physicians so you're

0:25:39.520,0:25:43.200
competing against every commerce

0:25:40.960,0:25:44.880
platform so you kind of get to know them

0:25:43.200,0:25:46.159
at least a little bit like maybe not as

0:25:44.880,0:25:47.360
deeply as someone specializing but

0:25:46.159,0:25:49.120
enough to kind of

0:25:47.360,0:25:51.520
be dangerous to kind of pick out their

0:25:49.120,0:25:53.520
weaknesses and strengths

0:25:51.520,0:25:56.000
and even even then like if so if someone

0:25:53.520,0:25:57.760
made like if someone like was a good fit

0:25:56.000,0:25:58.559
for shopify and a terrible fit for multi

0:25:57.760,0:26:00.640
we would say that

0:25:58.559,0:26:02.320
like it would be a waste of our time on

0:26:00.640,0:26:03.440
theirs to kind of go down the path only

0:26:02.320,0:26:04.640
for them to kind of get annoyed and

0:26:03.440,0:26:06.400
angry and

0:26:04.640,0:26:08.640
and likewise for us we've like wasted a

0:26:06.400,0:26:10.240
lot of energy you know right

0:26:08.640,0:26:11.919
sort of trial by fire sort of learn how

0:26:10.240,0:26:13.919
we do that sort of process but

0:26:11.919,0:26:15.679
right there's a lot of nuance in the

0:26:13.919,0:26:16.159
space but you kind of do get a good

0:26:15.679,0:26:17.840
sense

0:26:16.159,0:26:19.120
quite quickly like within like two three

0:26:17.840,0:26:20.320
minutes for like if you speak to like a

0:26:19.120,0:26:21.919
retailer or brand

0:26:20.320,0:26:24.240
so where they are on the spectrum of

0:26:21.919,0:26:25.919
like technical competency are they using

0:26:24.240,0:26:27.520
technology as an advantage or are they

0:26:25.919,0:26:29.840
just using it to kind of

0:26:27.520,0:26:30.960
get by and then you can start to play

0:26:29.840,0:26:32.400
somehow you know

0:26:30.960,0:26:35.039
how big is the budget how big is the

0:26:32.400,0:26:37.120
team like are they already using some

0:26:35.039,0:26:38.559
like headless providers or these

0:26:37.120,0:26:41.760
monoliths that kind of thing where

0:26:38.559,0:26:42.640
where do they exist are they innovative

0:26:41.760,0:26:44.240
or are they sort of

0:26:42.640,0:26:45.279
like laggards in the sense of like when

0:26:44.240,0:26:46.400
they pick up technology it's like oh

0:26:45.279,0:26:47.520
they sell this like if you look at the

0:26:46.400,0:26:49.520
interest space are they still on like

0:26:47.520,0:26:50.480
oracle atg or ibm websphere or something

0:26:49.520,0:26:51.760
if they're like

0:26:50.480,0:26:53.360
on that maybe they're beginning to

0:26:51.760,0:26:53.760
consider moving away maybe they're just

0:26:53.360,0:26:55.279
going to

0:26:53.760,0:26:56.350
live on like 20 year old technology

0:26:55.279,0:26:58.720
forever

0:26:56.350,0:27:00.400
[Laughter]

0:26:58.720,0:27:02.080
you know all these variables going to

0:27:00.400,0:27:05.120
play into that yeah

0:27:02.080,0:27:08.240
this kind of ties into your post on uh

0:27:05.120,0:27:10.320
martech's law which is that you know

0:27:08.240,0:27:11.679
technology changes exponentially

0:27:10.320,0:27:13.679
while organizations change

0:27:11.679,0:27:17.360
logarithmically so there's this huge

0:27:13.679,0:27:18.799
gap between

0:27:17.360,0:27:21.440
what's possible technically and where

0:27:18.799,0:27:24.640
the organization is at

0:27:21.440,0:27:27.600
this huge kind of gap in execution and

0:27:24.640,0:27:28.880
um it makes me like as i'm looking at

0:27:27.600,0:27:30.240
that and you kind of had a cool

0:27:28.880,0:27:32.159
variation on that chart where you

0:27:30.240,0:27:34.480
basically overlaid kind of

0:27:32.159,0:27:35.440
web specific e-commerce specific points

0:27:34.480,0:27:38.399
along the

0:27:35.440,0:27:38.880
thing yeah the problems the kind of

0:27:38.399,0:27:41.279
changes

0:27:38.880,0:27:42.640
that drive the change oh vice versa like

0:27:41.279,0:27:43.760
if you if you have like a solution

0:27:42.640,0:27:45.120
before it's time like

0:27:43.760,0:27:46.320
maybe moulton was too early to the

0:27:45.120,0:27:47.200
market and like people didn't get the

0:27:46.320,0:27:49.200
problems

0:27:47.200,0:27:50.320
yeah it became more apparent like

0:27:49.200,0:27:52.559
relatively

0:27:50.320,0:27:54.240
yeah yeah i'm saying you were early you

0:27:52.559,0:27:56.080
were ahead you were

0:27:54.240,0:27:57.919
you were you were in headless before it

0:27:56.080,0:28:00.159
was cool um

0:27:57.919,0:28:01.600
but like as i'm looking at that thing

0:28:00.159,0:28:03.679
and i'm thinking about it i'm thinking

0:28:01.600,0:28:06.000
to myself

0:28:03.679,0:28:06.960
so is the solution basically just more

0:28:06.000,0:28:08.799
startups

0:28:06.960,0:28:10.640
because you know that as the

0:28:08.799,0:28:12.159
organizations age they do this

0:28:10.640,0:28:14.720
logarithmic curve they get

0:28:12.159,0:28:15.279
sort of stale and they sort of they sort

0:28:14.720,0:28:17.039
of

0:28:15.279,0:28:18.880
are stuck in their ways and i'm thinking

0:28:17.039,0:28:20.960
okay so what's the opposite of that

0:28:18.880,0:28:22.000
the opposite as a is a startup because

0:28:20.960,0:28:25.120
it's new

0:28:22.000,0:28:25.840
so it starts at whatever point of that

0:28:25.120,0:28:29.360
tech curve

0:28:25.840,0:28:29.360
right it starts sort of at the top

0:28:35.039,0:28:38.640
some of those like they've been burnt by

0:28:36.880,0:28:40.399
shopify or magento or whatever in the

0:28:38.640,0:28:42.320
past and they're kind of starting

0:28:40.399,0:28:44.880
further up the curve right so what it

0:28:42.320,0:28:46.159
put up for one reason or another um

0:28:44.880,0:28:47.360
and that's that's great obviously

0:28:46.159,0:28:48.159
they're trying to maintain the velocity

0:28:47.360,0:28:50.480
and technology

0:28:48.159,0:28:51.840
changes and again so it reminds me i

0:28:50.480,0:28:52.799
don't know if you saw like the the text

0:28:51.840,0:28:55.360
sort of alongside

0:28:52.799,0:28:56.240
sort of the amazon jeff bezos mentality

0:28:55.360,0:28:58.159
which is like

0:28:56.240,0:28:59.600
every day is day one or day zero or

0:28:58.159,0:29:00.960
whatever it is and you have to

0:28:59.600,0:29:01.679
constantly be reinventing yourself to

0:29:00.960,0:29:04.000
kind of

0:29:01.679,0:29:05.600
not have that like like flattening curve

0:29:04.000,0:29:06.640
like yeah organizational change you're

0:29:05.600,0:29:09.840
trying to kind of keep

0:29:06.640,0:29:12.880
pace with what's happening yeah with the

0:29:09.840,0:29:14.159
technology changes right and what like

0:29:12.880,0:29:16.960
so what do you tell

0:29:14.159,0:29:17.600
a company that let's say a retailer that

0:29:16.960,0:29:19.440
has

0:29:17.600,0:29:21.360
i don't know 50 or 100 people something

0:29:19.440,0:29:22.399
like that they've been in business for a

0:29:21.360,0:29:24.399
while

0:29:22.399,0:29:26.399
and you show them this curve or you're

0:29:24.399,0:29:28.080
talking about technology decisions

0:29:26.399,0:29:31.279
related to the curve

0:29:28.080,0:29:33.279
like what do you what do you tell them

0:29:31.279,0:29:34.799
i guess i guess the curve is relatively

0:29:33.279,0:29:36.000
new like swinging i've only

0:29:34.799,0:29:38.159
sort of had it published like a couple

0:29:36.000,0:29:39.279
weeks uh before that i didn't have a

0:29:38.159,0:29:41.200
visualization

0:29:39.279,0:29:43.279
so it was more it was a good tool i

0:29:41.200,0:29:44.640
guess it's a tool that helps you

0:29:43.279,0:29:46.159
kind of put it in front of their face

0:29:44.640,0:29:46.799
and it's like not even it's not just me

0:29:46.159,0:29:48.559
it's like

0:29:46.799,0:29:49.760
it's multi-cloud it's like a thing like

0:29:48.559,0:29:51.039
you can go to like a whole website and

0:29:49.760,0:29:52.320
learn about it if you want like it's a

0:29:51.039,0:29:54.320
lot

0:29:52.320,0:29:56.399
yeah just adam's like echo chamber or

0:29:54.320,0:29:57.760
something and this is like a wider it's

0:29:56.399,0:30:00.399
wider than you see it's bigger than

0:29:57.760,0:30:04.000
e-commerce like yeah software technology

0:30:00.399,0:30:06.480
as a whole um but yeah

0:30:04.000,0:30:08.240
malting we would sort of try to i guess

0:30:06.480,0:30:09.679
piece together kind of where they're at

0:30:08.240,0:30:11.360
in terms of like how quickly can they

0:30:09.679,0:30:12.480
move how agile are they as a team

0:30:11.360,0:30:14.960
like to make decisions and actually

0:30:12.480,0:30:15.919
implement them um and then sort of again

0:30:14.960,0:30:18.080
sort of

0:30:15.919,0:30:19.120
it's very easy to measure website

0:30:18.080,0:30:20.559
performance

0:30:19.120,0:30:22.159
you can go in and you can like load up

0:30:20.559,0:30:24.000
the page speed and google lighthouse and

0:30:22.159,0:30:26.080
see how quickly something's loading

0:30:24.000,0:30:27.840
or not there's also that's kind of a

0:30:26.080,0:30:28.960
hard number there's also qualitatively

0:30:27.840,0:30:31.520
you can sort of look as well

0:30:28.960,0:30:32.320
sort of visually how how how quick is

0:30:31.520,0:30:34.159
the page there's

0:30:32.320,0:30:35.679
that sort of that's what google measures

0:30:34.159,0:30:37.600
like right now like i'm looking forward

0:30:35.679,0:30:38.240
to when google is measuring carts and

0:30:37.600,0:30:40.799
checkout

0:30:38.240,0:30:42.399
like speeds as well like it seems like

0:30:40.799,0:30:43.679
the the performance metrics

0:30:42.399,0:30:45.600
get you so far and then they kind of

0:30:43.679,0:30:47.279
stop like i wanted like

0:30:45.600,0:30:49.600
when i go to a shopify checkout it's

0:30:47.279,0:30:50.960
like slow and i'm like why is it so slow

0:30:49.600,0:30:52.480
like it shouldn't take like three

0:30:50.960,0:30:53.600
seconds to load like a checkout page for

0:30:52.480,0:30:56.799
whatever reason

0:30:53.600,0:30:59.279
yeah um like that's kind of like

0:30:56.799,0:31:00.240
are you a fan of the fast the fastest

0:30:59.279,0:31:02.320
yes yeah

0:31:00.240,0:31:03.919
definitely definitely a fan of fast and

0:31:02.320,0:31:04.320
i see it as sort of a spectrum so like i

0:31:03.919,0:31:06.000
haven't

0:31:04.320,0:31:08.240
obviously had a lot of time just to

0:31:06.000,0:31:10.480
think since the acquisition so

0:31:08.240,0:31:12.399
um that's sort of helped me sort of i've

0:31:10.480,0:31:15.360
got like a spectrum of like platforms

0:31:12.399,0:31:16.480
as well from like like a platform to a

0:31:15.360,0:31:18.799
service and then there's

0:31:16.480,0:31:20.720
add-ons and widgets versus like a full

0:31:18.799,0:31:23.440
blown like feature set

0:31:20.720,0:31:24.799
um so yeah there's like the there exists

0:31:23.440,0:31:25.519
a spectrum as well in terms of what

0:31:24.799,0:31:26.720
e-commerce

0:31:25.519,0:31:28.799
providers and there are things that

0:31:26.720,0:31:30.880
don't exist yet that's all i would say

0:31:28.799,0:31:32.080
i don't know that i have the energy to

0:31:30.880,0:31:33.440
to build them but

0:31:32.080,0:31:35.840
sort of from the experience of sort of

0:31:33.440,0:31:38.720
why why people chose

0:31:35.840,0:31:39.840
uh molten like they maybe thought they

0:31:38.720,0:31:41.200
were choosing an e-commerce platform and

0:31:39.840,0:31:43.120
then realized like later on that it was

0:31:41.200,0:31:44.320
a carton checkout service that they were

0:31:43.120,0:31:46.799
they were buying and they were doing a

0:31:44.320,0:31:47.679
lot of stuff in code to customize around

0:31:46.799,0:31:51.760
it

0:31:47.679,0:31:55.120
um so you can in my head it was like

0:31:51.760,0:31:56.960
fast and um bolt a very like streamlined

0:31:55.120,0:31:58.080
like self-checkouts for that 80

0:31:56.960,0:32:00.159
of the use cases with a very

0:31:58.080,0:32:02.320
standardized i would say

0:32:00.159,0:32:03.360
people chose molten for the other 20 and

0:32:02.320,0:32:04.320
that's probably the reason why they

0:32:03.360,0:32:06.880
choose magento

0:32:04.320,0:32:08.399
as well in terms of that customization

0:32:06.880,0:32:11.039
and right now that's in code and i think

0:32:08.399,0:32:12.880
that that's going to

0:32:11.039,0:32:14.399
become like the barrier to entry is

0:32:12.880,0:32:16.399
going to become a lot less

0:32:14.399,0:32:18.000
as we see sort of no code and low code

0:32:16.399,0:32:20.000
interfaces applied on top

0:32:18.000,0:32:22.240
so you kind of get because we would see

0:32:20.000,0:32:23.679
that sort of the same process sometimes

0:32:22.240,0:32:25.440
headless implementation would take two

0:32:23.679,0:32:26.480
weeks and they kind of go live like

0:32:25.440,0:32:28.240
super quickly

0:32:26.480,0:32:29.679
from scratch from like nothing other

0:32:28.240,0:32:30.159
times it takes six months and a lot of

0:32:29.679,0:32:32.720
that

0:32:30.159,0:32:33.919
like is taken up by integrations that it

0:32:32.720,0:32:35.279
could be out of the box

0:32:33.919,0:32:37.039
like in terms of just turning things on

0:32:35.279,0:32:40.640
like they're very still standardized

0:32:37.039,0:32:42.720
it would be the the last like 10 15 20

0:32:40.640,0:32:44.159
would be the customization part so

0:32:42.720,0:32:45.279
there's 80 percent of the work that can

0:32:44.159,0:32:47.440
be done

0:32:45.279,0:32:48.480
like very quickly it just needs to be

0:32:47.440,0:32:50.080
productized and

0:32:48.480,0:32:51.840
have an interface put on top of it then

0:32:50.080,0:32:55.919
you can just like click a few buttons

0:32:51.840,0:32:56.640
yeah um right now yeah that makes a lot

0:32:55.919,0:32:59.120
of sense

0:32:56.640,0:33:00.320
um by the way you're a little off-center

0:32:59.120,0:33:01.519
if you go a little more center in the

0:33:00.320,0:33:04.399
video yeah thanks

0:33:01.519,0:33:06.000
but um it's uh it's funny because like

0:33:04.399,0:33:09.039
one of those trade-offs with headless

0:33:06.000,0:33:10.480
is how uh you're giving yourself

0:33:09.039,0:33:12.320
more work right maybe you got to create

0:33:10.480,0:33:13.760
a custom front end or whatever but

0:33:12.320,0:33:16.159
it's kind of like the vision the picture

0:33:13.760,0:33:18.640
you're painting is more one of

0:33:16.159,0:33:19.840
uh low code kind of orchestration of a

0:33:18.640,0:33:20.960
lot of different things so you can

0:33:19.840,0:33:24.320
create something very

0:33:20.960,0:33:27.519
unique um it kind of best of all worlds

0:33:24.320,0:33:28.240
with without um having to reinvent the

0:33:27.519,0:33:30.399
whole wheel

0:33:28.240,0:33:32.000
seven times over uh he kind of it kind

0:33:30.399,0:33:33.279
of brings you back around to that point

0:33:32.000,0:33:34.880
you made about like

0:33:33.279,0:33:36.480
all these like startups like in on the

0:33:34.880,0:33:37.360
vendor on the on the retail and brand

0:33:36.480,0:33:38.320
side it's the same thing for the

0:33:37.360,0:33:39.360
software side

0:33:38.320,0:33:41.360
and it feels like there's going to be

0:33:39.360,0:33:42.480
like something that comes along and ties

0:33:41.360,0:33:43.840
everything back together again so

0:33:42.480,0:33:45.600
instead of having like a commerce it's

0:33:43.840,0:33:46.640
like suite or platform you end up like a

0:33:45.600,0:33:49.600
commerce stack

0:33:46.640,0:33:50.960
basically this is it's a nuance uh maybe

0:33:49.600,0:33:52.000
they end up being acquired and someone

0:33:50.960,0:33:54.799
swallows everyone up

0:33:52.000,0:33:56.880
like that might happen and if it happens

0:33:54.799,0:33:59.120
you may end up losing some of that

0:33:56.880,0:34:00.399
flexibility that made the stack great

0:33:59.120,0:34:01.919
and you end up with the street again but

0:34:00.399,0:34:03.679
very rigid thing

0:34:01.919,0:34:05.039
um but i i really like that sort of

0:34:03.679,0:34:07.519
ecosystem approach

0:34:05.039,0:34:09.520
yeah i actually created this website

0:34:07.519,0:34:10.639
commerce stack dot io i think it's been

0:34:09.520,0:34:12.960
like six months

0:34:10.639,0:34:14.240
but it was basically the idea was for

0:34:12.960,0:34:16.480
merchants it's it's like

0:34:14.240,0:34:18.639
built with sort of but specific to

0:34:16.480,0:34:20.480
e-commerce where people can share

0:34:18.639,0:34:22.320
what they're kind of commerce stack is

0:34:20.480,0:34:23.520
in terms of whatever plug-ins platforms

0:34:22.320,0:34:26.399
things they use

0:34:23.520,0:34:27.839
um and then like agencies also to be

0:34:26.399,0:34:29.919
able to show

0:34:27.839,0:34:31.200
which that you know which parts and

0:34:29.919,0:34:32.639
pieces of the stack is it

0:34:31.200,0:34:34.320
is it like visual do you have like

0:34:32.639,0:34:34.879
diagrams that get generated out of the

0:34:34.320,0:34:36.639
background

0:34:34.879,0:34:38.639
there's no there's no diagrams nothing

0:34:36.639,0:34:40.320
near the level

0:34:38.639,0:34:42.639
like that's how we still have lessons

0:34:40.320,0:34:44.000
literally like people can't see it so

0:34:42.639,0:34:45.760
you have to draw a picture

0:34:44.000,0:34:47.520
and like you have tracked away like some

0:34:45.760,0:34:49.040
of the integrations and the

0:34:47.520,0:34:51.040
apis but you just have like all the

0:34:49.040,0:34:52.960
logos on the page right that's basically

0:34:51.040,0:34:56.000
what it was it was logo

0:34:52.960,0:34:58.400
yeah it's just logos um

0:34:56.000,0:35:00.400
and i like the i like the content you're

0:34:58.400,0:35:03.520
putting out like with the

0:35:00.400,0:35:05.680
uh the commerce magic roundabout um

0:35:03.520,0:35:06.800
and also like the martex law like i like

0:35:05.680,0:35:08.560
how

0:35:06.800,0:35:10.000
you're putting out you know everybody's

0:35:08.560,0:35:11.520
doing different types of content

0:35:10.000,0:35:13.280
and i like what you're doing because

0:35:11.520,0:35:16.480
it's like

0:35:13.280,0:35:19.680
it's not just uh it's like you're uh

0:35:16.480,0:35:21.680
you are like uh tying things into

0:35:19.680,0:35:23.680
you know like the laws or tying into the

0:35:21.680,0:35:25.200
quad the quadrant like you're doing

0:35:23.680,0:35:28.720
stuff that's a little

0:35:25.200,0:35:30.960
a little deeper right than just you know

0:35:28.720,0:35:31.920
some conversion rate chart that's going

0:35:30.960,0:35:33.680
up and to the right

0:35:31.920,0:35:35.520
or something like a conversion rate or

0:35:33.680,0:35:35.839
like just like a feature comparison or

0:35:35.520,0:35:39.359
like

0:35:35.839,0:35:39.920
yeah it's like stale it's like that's

0:35:39.359,0:35:41.440
not yeah

0:35:39.920,0:35:43.680
people get soaked into like feature

0:35:41.440,0:35:46.560
comparisons and all this like

0:35:43.680,0:35:47.359
optimization comparisons are hilarious

0:35:46.560,0:35:50.400
right because

0:35:47.359,0:35:52.640
you're all they're always so bi they're

0:35:50.400,0:35:56.160
almost always comically biased

0:35:52.640,0:35:58.960
in favor of the company creating it

0:35:56.160,0:36:00.160
you know it's it's like it's just funny

0:35:58.960,0:36:02.800
you know

0:36:00.160,0:36:03.920
um i remember we we did one of those

0:36:02.800,0:36:06.640
once and then we got it wrong and we're

0:36:03.920,0:36:08.079
like okay like let's just take it down

0:36:06.640,0:36:09.359
it's like we're fighting a losing battle

0:36:08.079,0:36:10.839
there's like we've got ten engineers

0:36:09.359,0:36:14.320
against like hundreds

0:36:10.839,0:36:15.599
right what do you mean you got it wrong

0:36:14.320,0:36:17.040
like we i think we like i think it was

0:36:15.599,0:36:18.640
like we were comparing various like

0:36:17.040,0:36:19.680
e-commerce like widgets or something and

0:36:18.640,0:36:22.079
then like

0:36:19.680,0:36:23.599
we got called out it was like ah okay oh

0:36:22.079,0:36:25.119
yeah yeah

0:36:23.599,0:36:26.960
you can't know everything to like that

0:36:25.119,0:36:29.599
level of like detail right

0:36:26.960,0:36:30.640
right so the commerce magic roundabout

0:36:29.599,0:36:31.839
looks super interesting kind of

0:36:30.640,0:36:34.720
hilarious

0:36:31.839,0:36:36.720
um i've started to see like i've started

0:36:34.720,0:36:38.960
to see with the magic quadrant

0:36:36.720,0:36:40.560
that the platforms that are winning in

0:36:38.960,0:36:43.119
the magic quadrant

0:36:40.560,0:36:44.160
are like a negative indicator right now

0:36:43.119,0:36:46.800
to me

0:36:44.160,0:36:48.480
it's like i mean like i don't know if i

0:36:46.800,0:36:51.119
don't know if you read the post

0:36:48.480,0:36:51.599
uh they kind of look like linked to that

0:36:51.119,0:36:54.000
but

0:36:51.599,0:36:55.440
it kind of talks about uh how some of

0:36:54.000,0:36:57.680
the some of the vendors kind of

0:36:55.440,0:36:59.200
like passed their prime like as like yes

0:36:57.680,0:36:59.760
they're leaders in terms of market share

0:36:59.200,0:37:01.599
perhaps

0:36:59.760,0:37:03.440
but in terms of sort of product vision

0:37:01.599,0:37:04.720
and execution capabilities like their

0:37:03.440,0:37:06.160
team has

0:37:04.720,0:37:08.000
sort of waned maybe they've left them

0:37:06.160,0:37:10.480
like gone elsewhere or like they're just

0:37:08.000,0:37:11.440
like kind of yeah they kind of again the

0:37:10.480,0:37:12.720
organizational like

0:37:11.440,0:37:14.720
chart kind of comes into play a little

0:37:12.720,0:37:18.160
bit like they become very difficult

0:37:14.720,0:37:19.760
they're like like giant like tankers

0:37:18.160,0:37:21.520
like all tankers that don't

0:37:19.760,0:37:23.520
yeah like it's very difficult to steer

0:37:21.520,0:37:26.000
one once it's got that sort of scale

0:37:23.520,0:37:27.920
so how do you kind of make that change

0:37:26.000,0:37:29.280
and stay relevant like you see like

0:37:27.920,0:37:31.680
i look to like magento like over the

0:37:29.280,0:37:33.119
past like three four five years

0:37:31.680,0:37:34.320
i'm just like looking at the technology

0:37:33.119,0:37:34.800
decisions that they're making and then

0:37:34.320,0:37:36.800
they can

0:37:34.800,0:37:38.640
kind of get stuck with them like yeah

0:37:36.800,0:37:39.520
even when like like knockout js and that

0:37:38.640,0:37:41.280
kind of thing it's like

0:37:39.520,0:37:43.280
why are they using these things it's

0:37:41.280,0:37:44.720
like a curse it's it's like

0:37:43.280,0:37:46.640
they do the best they can and they're

0:37:44.720,0:37:48.880
like cursed to pick

0:37:46.640,0:37:50.079
exact you know it was prototype js for

0:37:48.880,0:37:51.839
m1 and

0:37:50.079,0:37:53.920
now it's knockout and it's like they're

0:37:51.839,0:37:55.359
always picking the wrong thing

0:37:53.920,0:37:56.800
you kind of kind of place the bet and

0:37:55.359,0:37:58.000
then if you're wrong and like you kind

0:37:56.800,0:38:00.079
of scared yourself

0:37:58.000,0:38:01.599
right and then it's also a speed thing

0:38:00.079,0:38:03.359
too because like

0:38:01.599,0:38:04.880
you can place a bet and then hope that

0:38:03.359,0:38:07.440
you're right in four years

0:38:04.880,0:38:09.520
or you can just iterate faster than that

0:38:07.440,0:38:12.640
like and that which is probably kind of

0:38:09.520,0:38:14.320
the way to go um the crevice or crevasse

0:38:12.640,0:38:17.040
of carelessness

0:38:14.320,0:38:19.839
uh i thought was was some good

0:38:17.040,0:38:19.839
copywriting

0:38:20.240,0:38:24.480
yeah it was it was good and it and it

0:38:22.960,0:38:26.880
did sting a little bit

0:38:24.480,0:38:28.720
uh as somebody that's been you know deep

0:38:26.880,0:38:32.000
in the magento ecosystem but

0:38:28.720,0:38:34.480
i it feels true like it feels

0:38:32.000,0:38:35.839
i have to say that it feels true what

0:38:34.480,0:38:38.720
would your advice

0:38:35.839,0:38:39.920
be to uh to the magento team if you

0:38:38.720,0:38:44.400
could give them

0:38:39.920,0:38:46.720
some advice well that's a that's a tough

0:38:44.400,0:38:46.720
question

0:38:58.800,0:39:02.400
you don't need like hundreds of

0:38:59.839,0:39:04.320
developers you need 10 to 20 people

0:39:02.400,0:39:06.000
and just like go fully into like

0:39:04.320,0:39:08.960
headless like micro services api

0:39:06.000,0:39:11.680
just give it just get like your 10 top

0:39:08.960,0:39:13.839
people and just start fresh

0:39:11.680,0:39:15.520
is that like a separate just separate

0:39:13.839,0:39:17.119
because if you kind of get sucked into

0:39:15.520,0:39:19.680
sort of the existing like

0:39:17.119,0:39:21.119
team and like business processes and

0:39:19.680,0:39:22.800
structures that are in place and the old

0:39:21.119,0:39:23.599
charts and everything else like

0:39:22.800,0:39:26.560
you know you're not going to get

0:39:23.599,0:39:28.160
anywhere fast enough you know

0:39:26.560,0:39:30.000
they get nibbled away from everywhere

0:39:28.160,0:39:32.400
and like who's gonna

0:39:30.000,0:39:34.320
get by a thousand cuts yeah that's an

0:39:32.400,0:39:36.160
interesting one because that ties back

0:39:34.320,0:39:39.520
into that martech's law graph

0:39:36.160,0:39:42.640
and the conclusion being startups

0:39:39.520,0:39:44.160
like basically you just said we had to

0:39:42.640,0:39:45.680
scrap it and start again it was painful

0:39:44.160,0:39:48.320
right it was hard even further

0:39:45.680,0:39:49.200
from like version two like right it was

0:39:48.320,0:39:50.400
like

0:39:49.200,0:39:52.240
but in some ways it was like a good

0:39:50.400,0:39:53.680
thing at the end we got a quiet because

0:39:52.240,0:39:55.599
of that

0:39:53.680,0:39:56.720
right yeah right right right that's

0:39:55.599,0:40:00.000
interesting

0:39:56.720,0:40:01.599
um yeah it's it's uh it and on the other

0:40:00.000,0:40:02.560
hand it's like the hard thing about hard

0:40:01.599,0:40:05.119
things you know

0:40:02.560,0:40:06.640
it's like a company that has hundreds of

0:40:05.119,0:40:07.359
people or thousands of people for them

0:40:06.640,0:40:09.359
to make like

0:40:07.359,0:40:10.880
it's easier to make that change scrap it

0:40:09.359,0:40:11.280
and rewrite it when you're a smaller

0:40:10.880,0:40:14.000
team

0:40:11.280,0:40:14.720
and not that it's easy it's still hard

0:40:14.000,0:40:16.640
but it's like

0:40:14.720,0:40:18.160
several orders of magnitude harder when

0:40:16.640,0:40:19.839
you're a bigger company

0:40:18.160,0:40:22.079
at the end of the day the market doesn't

0:40:19.839,0:40:22.480
care like the market doesn't care that

0:40:22.079,0:40:25.359
it's

0:40:22.480,0:40:27.119
hard for you to make a shift the market

0:40:25.359,0:40:30.480
is going to go with whatever the best

0:40:27.119,0:40:32.160
product is um and so it kind of doesn't

0:40:30.480,0:40:34.319
matter that it's hard

0:40:32.160,0:40:35.440
but at the same time like if you're in

0:40:34.319,0:40:37.680
that position

0:40:35.440,0:40:39.200
like what what do you do it's a hard

0:40:37.680,0:40:40.640
thing you've got a few you kind of got a

0:40:39.200,0:40:42.319
few years to kind of fix it in a few

0:40:40.640,0:40:43.839
years to catch up and at that point

0:40:42.319,0:40:46.160
you're kind of sliding

0:40:43.839,0:40:47.520
to stagnation so like i've got like a

0:40:46.160,0:40:48.079
blog post title in my head i haven't

0:40:47.520,0:40:49.359
like

0:40:48.079,0:40:51.520
figured out what it's going to say yet

0:40:49.359,0:40:55.359
but it's like you know adobe's like

0:40:51.520,0:40:57.200
billion dollar mistake like like yes

0:40:55.359,0:40:58.560
magento customer base and like the

0:40:57.200,0:40:59.200
branding and like being a platform and

0:40:58.560,0:41:00.800
stuff

0:40:59.200,0:41:02.720
i like to like pull it into the adobe

0:41:00.800,0:41:04.400
suite but like where do you go from

0:41:02.720,0:41:05.280
there like the product is like stale at

0:41:04.400,0:41:06.640
this point

0:41:05.280,0:41:08.560
like kind of chipping away at it and

0:41:06.640,0:41:11.200
stuff but like yeah

0:41:08.560,0:41:12.480
man yeah i hear you if i was like a

0:41:11.200,0:41:14.160
chief product officer or like some sort

0:41:12.480,0:41:16.319
of product manager over there but like

0:41:14.160,0:41:17.359
putting my hair out like well what do i

0:41:16.319,0:41:19.200
do with this

0:41:17.359,0:41:20.480
it'd be like let's let's redo it let's

0:41:19.200,0:41:22.720
burn it down

0:41:20.480,0:41:24.160
um why is i think i might know the

0:41:22.720,0:41:25.440
answer to this now that based on some of

0:41:24.160,0:41:27.839
the things we've discussed but

0:41:25.440,0:41:29.599
i noticed that commerce tools was higher

0:41:27.839,0:41:32.560
on the vision access

0:41:29.599,0:41:33.680
access than shopify and i'm curious why

0:41:32.560,0:41:34.720
that is if it's just because the

0:41:33.680,0:41:35.839
obviously they're going the headless

0:41:34.720,0:41:38.640
direction

0:41:35.839,0:41:39.280
um and shopify i mean i mean attacking

0:41:38.640,0:41:41.040
headless on

0:41:39.280,0:41:43.280
i mean yeah shopify are kind of tacking

0:41:41.040,0:41:45.920
it on i think it is to do with api

0:41:43.280,0:41:48.079
first and sort of headless and the

0:41:45.920,0:41:49.599
microservices aspect and in fact if you

0:41:48.079,0:41:51.200
think about for shopify

0:41:49.599,0:41:53.200
their whole premise is a platform that

0:41:51.200,0:41:53.839
is easy turnkey and easy to pick up and

0:41:53.200,0:41:55.920
use

0:41:53.839,0:41:57.359
right um and it's monolithic in nature

0:41:55.920,0:41:58.880
and they're quite if you look at sort of

0:41:57.359,0:42:00.560
what they how their

0:41:58.880,0:42:02.160
approach is with the ecosystem it's

0:42:00.560,0:42:03.520
quite controlling

0:42:02.160,0:42:05.280
whereas commerce tools is a little bit

0:42:03.520,0:42:06.000
more sort of hands-off and it's like up

0:42:05.280,0:42:07.760
to you

0:42:06.000,0:42:09.920
the implementer to kind of figure out

0:42:07.760,0:42:12.000
the gaps and fill things in with us

0:42:09.920,0:42:13.599
so i have a very i'm very hesitant

0:42:12.000,0:42:15.920
around the shopify

0:42:13.599,0:42:16.640
ecosystem and kind of what they do with

0:42:15.920,0:42:18.800
their

0:42:16.640,0:42:19.920
like into their other vendors and

0:42:18.800,0:42:21.119
integrators like

0:42:19.920,0:42:22.800
because they have all the data they know

0:42:21.119,0:42:24.240
what's working like what isn't working

0:42:22.800,0:42:27.599
they can go and

0:42:24.240,0:42:29.280
replicate a feature or like a specific

0:42:27.599,0:42:29.760
vertical thing and improve upon it and

0:42:29.280,0:42:33.119
then they

0:42:29.760,0:42:35.119
just squash kill like right

0:42:33.119,0:42:36.960
obviously it's tied into that checkout

0:42:35.119,0:42:37.680
as well like the checkout is very locked

0:42:36.960,0:42:39.280
down

0:42:37.680,0:42:40.640
but you can't do very much inside the

0:42:39.280,0:42:42.240
checkout because well but they just

0:42:40.640,0:42:42.560
released those apis for the checkout

0:42:42.240,0:42:45.520
right

0:42:42.560,0:42:46.560
just like a week or two exactly yeah but

0:42:45.520,0:42:49.040
things have to get kind of

0:42:46.560,0:42:50.160
rooted through the shopify checkout yeah

0:42:49.040,0:42:51.040
where it's like it was very interesting

0:42:50.160,0:42:52.240
like molten

0:42:51.040,0:42:53.599
you didn't have to use a checkout if you

0:42:52.240,0:42:55.440
didn't if you didn't want to you could

0:42:53.599,0:42:57.440
kind of just like pick and choose and

0:42:55.440,0:42:58.480
kind of circumvent it but the thing is

0:42:57.440,0:43:01.359
is like a

0:42:58.480,0:43:02.000
checkout is like you don't want to be in

0:43:01.359,0:43:03.920
like that

0:43:02.000,0:43:05.680
that's the problem they saw that magento

0:43:03.920,0:43:07.359
was um

0:43:05.680,0:43:08.720
causing is like you don't want to host

0:43:07.359,0:43:11.040
your own checkout

0:43:08.720,0:43:12.240
like that's a that's a tough thing to do

0:43:11.040,0:43:14.800
and and

0:43:12.240,0:43:16.400
it's going to go down yeah it depends

0:43:14.800,0:43:17.119
like if you're like if you're in the 80

0:43:16.400,0:43:18.720
percent of

0:43:17.119,0:43:20.400
like retailers and brands i just need to

0:43:18.720,0:43:21.040
stand to check out like yeah sure that's

0:43:20.400,0:43:23.680
fine

0:43:21.040,0:43:25.200
yeah so the other for the b2b use cases

0:43:23.680,0:43:26.720
and all the complex stuff that you kind

0:43:25.200,0:43:28.079
of you might need to host

0:43:26.720,0:43:29.520
you couldn't turn you can't you couldn't

0:43:28.079,0:43:30.880
plug in fast or ball or something like

0:43:29.520,0:43:33.839
you can end up

0:43:30.880,0:43:35.440
you need to have the extra steps i was

0:43:33.839,0:43:37.200
curious about that like i don't know too

0:43:35.440,0:43:39.680
much about fast either but

0:43:37.200,0:43:42.640
so you can you use fast on top of

0:43:39.680,0:43:44.240
shopify or that's just

0:43:42.640,0:43:45.680
um possible so you can use it for you

0:43:44.240,0:43:47.839
can use it on bigcommerce right now from

0:43:45.680,0:43:49.200
what i'm aware of they've got a plugin

0:43:47.839,0:43:51.520
i've had a conversation with them

0:43:49.200,0:43:52.800
briefly they do have some apis sort of

0:43:51.520,0:43:54.319
behind the scenes i don't think

0:43:52.800,0:43:55.920
like since i last checked they haven't

0:43:54.319,0:43:57.599
put out the documentation for that but

0:43:55.920,0:43:59.440
ideally then once you've got the apis

0:43:57.599,0:44:01.280
out you can do sort of

0:43:59.440,0:44:02.880
integration with anything which is great

0:44:01.280,0:44:05.359
i i assume

0:44:02.880,0:44:06.560
um you can at that point you'll be able

0:44:05.359,0:44:08.000
to use like commerce tools and whatever

0:44:06.560,0:44:09.680
else you can kind of just plug them in

0:44:08.000,0:44:11.520
i think shopify they've got an issue

0:44:09.680,0:44:12.000
with from what i'm what i've seen on

0:44:11.520,0:44:13.760
like

0:44:12.000,0:44:15.200
twitter where they're kind of like their

0:44:13.760,0:44:17.599
founders are saying like

0:44:15.200,0:44:19.599
like let us have access to the shopify

0:44:17.599,0:44:22.240
checkout so we can have our bun

0:44:19.599,0:44:24.079
um because it's kind of a bit locked

0:44:22.240,0:44:26.000
down so gotcha

0:44:24.079,0:44:27.200
so that's one of those kind of control

0:44:26.000,0:44:29.680
control issues

0:44:27.200,0:44:30.800
where shopify wants to have a certain

0:44:29.680,0:44:34.000
amount of control and

0:44:30.800,0:44:37.280
over the ecosystem and stuff does um

0:44:34.000,0:44:39.920
so does commerce tools not like

0:44:37.280,0:44:41.520
do they not step on because to a certain

0:44:39.920,0:44:43.200
extent platforms are going to always

0:44:41.520,0:44:45.359
cannibalize

0:44:43.200,0:44:47.119
their ecosystem there's kind of no way

0:44:45.359,0:44:50.800
around that right because a platform

0:44:47.119,0:44:53.040
has to grow the feature set has to grow

0:44:50.800,0:44:54.880
and anytime a feature set is i mean not

0:44:53.040,0:44:56.720
that it necessarily has to but it seems

0:44:54.880,0:44:59.839
to always grow

0:44:56.720,0:45:01.680
like yeah and so you're gonna step on

0:44:59.839,0:45:03.119
something if your feature set is growing

0:45:01.680,0:45:04.960
and the things you're gonna want to step

0:45:03.119,0:45:05.920
on are going to be the things that are

0:45:04.960,0:45:06.800
the most popular

0:45:05.920,0:45:09.599
you know that's where you're going to

0:45:06.800,0:45:09.599
probably want to focus

0:45:09.680,0:45:13.839
um yeah i could see i guess it depends

0:45:12.079,0:45:15.440
on how how those features kind of come

0:45:13.839,0:45:17.200
about and get integrated so i can see

0:45:15.440,0:45:18.240
commerce tools acquiring other api

0:45:17.200,0:45:20.000
companies

0:45:18.240,0:45:21.520
that would make sense that would still

0:45:20.000,0:45:23.359
retain the flexibility of like being

0:45:21.520,0:45:25.200
able to pick and choose

0:45:23.359,0:45:26.480
uh which features you actually decide to

0:45:25.200,0:45:26.960
implement versus go somewhere else and

0:45:26.480,0:45:29.599
get some

0:45:26.960,0:45:31.440
okay get a better product for perhaps so

0:45:29.599,0:45:33.359
i kind of i kind of see it sort of

0:45:31.440,0:45:34.640
as sort of how it gets integrated is it

0:45:33.359,0:45:36.960
kind of pulled in

0:45:34.640,0:45:38.400
to the core yeah and it kind of becomes

0:45:36.960,0:45:39.920
quite rigid and kind of in some ways

0:45:38.400,0:45:41.680
mediocre because eventually like

0:45:39.920,0:45:42.960
if you saw this at multiple if you go

0:45:41.680,0:45:44.960
really broad

0:45:42.960,0:45:46.880
like you don't specialize like you just

0:45:44.960,0:45:47.920
ended with like a a bad product like in

0:45:46.880,0:45:50.079
every category and then

0:45:47.920,0:45:52.079
we ended up sort of pivoting away from

0:45:50.079,0:45:53.200
being a platform and focusing on car and

0:45:52.079,0:45:54.319
checkout which is what our customers

0:45:53.200,0:45:56.720
were kind of using us

0:45:54.319,0:45:57.520
for gotcha um even if they didn't

0:45:56.720,0:46:01.839
realize it that's what

0:45:57.520,0:46:01.839
that's what they were doing yeah

0:46:03.440,0:46:07.599
on boarding like we had like hundreds

0:46:06.160,0:46:10.640
and hundreds of developers signing up

0:46:07.599,0:46:11.520
every week and then oh wow a small

0:46:10.640,0:46:13.119
fraction

0:46:11.520,0:46:14.960
would get through and as you build

0:46:13.119,0:46:16.480
something like that a lot of them kind

0:46:14.960,0:46:18.079
of came in expecting like the shopify

0:46:16.480,0:46:19.599
experience where it's like all there

0:46:18.079,0:46:21.200
and it was like be like right i sort of

0:46:19.599,0:46:22.720
imagine like we never we never really

0:46:21.200,0:46:24.160
tracked it like we were focused on a lot

0:46:22.720,0:46:25.760
of features and sort of the existing

0:46:24.160,0:46:28.000
customer base but like if we just focus

0:46:25.760,0:46:29.280
a bit more time on the onboarding i like

0:46:28.000,0:46:31.200
that like that like i said like the

0:46:29.280,0:46:32.560
developer experience like when you go in

0:46:31.200,0:46:33.520
and click buttons like the low code

0:46:32.560,0:46:34.560
stuff i feel like that was the thing

0:46:33.520,0:46:35.680
that's missing

0:46:34.560,0:46:37.359
uh you're seeing it a little bit i'm not

0:46:35.680,0:46:38.319
sure how familiar with the headless cms

0:46:37.359,0:46:40.560
space and like

0:46:38.319,0:46:42.000
the jump stack and stuff like a little

0:46:40.560,0:46:43.760
bit i've i've messed

0:46:42.000,0:46:45.760
up uh messed around with like prismic a

0:46:43.760,0:46:49.200
little bit um

0:46:45.760,0:46:51.760
and i thought that was really cool um

0:46:49.200,0:46:53.119
i've messed around with uh well not that

0:46:51.760,0:46:54.480
webflow is headless it's the

0:46:53.119,0:46:56.240
opposite of that but i messed around

0:46:54.480,0:46:56.880
with as far as like no code stuff goes i

0:46:56.240,0:46:59.200
messed around

0:46:56.880,0:47:01.200
with webflow i feel like a combination

0:46:59.200,0:47:03.680
of all these things like together

0:47:01.200,0:47:05.200
um where like it's like the best of all

0:47:03.680,0:47:07.520
all worlds

0:47:05.200,0:47:09.599
in the end what are some of your

0:47:07.520,0:47:12.960
favorite headless cmss for

0:47:09.599,0:47:15.520
for e-commerce uh there are i guess

0:47:12.960,0:47:16.880
in my sort of what i can have my three

0:47:15.520,0:47:18.960
go-to's

0:47:16.880,0:47:20.079
so sort of for the the developers the

0:47:18.960,0:47:22.240
hobby projects

0:47:20.079,0:47:23.359
on the lower end that's contentful

0:47:22.240,0:47:25.440
that's huge

0:47:23.359,0:47:27.040
um they've they've raised like monster

0:47:25.440,0:47:28.559
rounds of cash and they're so

0:47:27.040,0:47:30.480
obviously fueling their growth so that's

0:47:28.559,0:47:31.839
that would be sort of the first

0:47:30.480,0:47:33.200
and then there's there's two that i

0:47:31.839,0:47:34.240
guess more sort of mid market and

0:47:33.200,0:47:37.599
enterprise

0:47:34.240,0:47:39.280
content stack and amplifying

0:47:37.599,0:47:40.800
one of my clients at the moment is

0:47:39.280,0:47:42.720
ampliance i'm helping them from a

0:47:40.800,0:47:45.599
product marketing perspective but

0:47:42.720,0:47:47.119
they're sort of heavily invested into uh

0:47:45.599,0:47:50.160
companies that specializes in

0:47:47.119,0:47:51.119
e-commerce like use cases so they they

0:47:50.160,0:47:52.559
look to like

0:47:51.119,0:47:55.119
to partner with commerce tools for

0:47:52.559,0:47:58.640
example and specialize in

0:47:55.119,0:48:00.800
the e-commerce experiences that kind of

0:47:58.640,0:48:03.920
get created inside the cms as opposed to

0:48:00.800,0:48:03.920
a more generic offering

0:48:04.800,0:48:07.599
yeah like i don't know what i don't want

0:48:06.079,0:48:09.280
to go with like sell ambulance or

0:48:07.599,0:48:12.480
anything but

0:48:09.280,0:48:13.440
it depends they're not a good fit for uh

0:48:12.480,0:48:14.960
for everybody

0:48:13.440,0:48:16.880
i mean i think everybody has their

0:48:14.960,0:48:21.839
biases you know so i think

0:48:16.880,0:48:21.839
it's like yeah okay

0:48:22.640,0:48:26.160
there's a book called positioning by

0:48:24.559,0:48:27.920
alvi's i mean

0:48:26.160,0:48:29.280
this is a book i've got i'm putting

0:48:27.920,0:48:32.480
together like a reading list

0:48:29.280,0:48:35.920
that's going to be blurry as well yeah

0:48:32.480,0:48:37.760
it's like it's um it's

0:48:35.920,0:48:39.599
it's called this like like ladder like

0:48:37.760,0:48:40.319
concept where like a human brain can

0:48:39.599,0:48:42.800
only have

0:48:40.319,0:48:44.559
like so many vendors on a specific

0:48:42.800,0:48:47.200
categorized ladder so think about

0:48:44.559,0:48:49.200
e-commerce platforms you have so many

0:48:47.200,0:48:50.480
vendors on that ladder the same applies

0:48:49.200,0:48:51.760
for any industries like what's the

0:48:50.480,0:48:53.599
biggest drinks company in the world like

0:48:51.760,0:48:54.480
coca-cola and then it's maybe pepsi and

0:48:53.599,0:48:56.480
so on so you can

0:48:54.480,0:48:57.520
get this like ranking thing and whoever

0:48:56.480,0:48:59.280
gets the first spot

0:48:57.520,0:49:00.720
obviously gets the dominant position in

0:48:59.280,0:49:03.040
the market because it's occupying

0:49:00.720,0:49:04.400
everyone's brain space um so you can

0:49:03.040,0:49:05.440
imagine sort of commerce tools is maybe

0:49:04.400,0:49:07.520
the first spot for

0:49:05.440,0:49:08.960
some headless and micro services whereas

0:49:07.520,0:49:10.960
shopify has got the

0:49:08.960,0:49:12.400
the first ladder position for sort of

0:49:10.960,0:49:14.319
mum and pop like

0:49:12.400,0:49:15.839
ecommerce platform for example it's very

0:49:14.319,0:49:17.280
difficult to change that perception once

0:49:15.839,0:49:18.559
it's set as well so like there's there

0:49:17.280,0:49:19.760
are perception issues when i see sort of

0:49:18.559,0:49:20.559
sharpie try trying to go headless that

0:49:19.760,0:49:22.400
people kind of

0:49:20.559,0:49:23.760
have them categorized in a bucket so

0:49:22.400,0:49:25.359
it's very hard to kind of move

0:49:23.760,0:49:26.960
buckets and you've got to fight against

0:49:25.359,0:49:28.480
that right um

0:49:26.960,0:49:30.400
but um i'm trying to relate this back

0:49:28.480,0:49:32.640
together well

0:49:30.400,0:49:33.839
yeah it's sort of that concept um where

0:49:32.640,0:49:35.280
people only have so much

0:49:33.839,0:49:36.640
vision as to kind of what they see in

0:49:35.280,0:49:39.920
the market like if you look at like

0:49:36.640,0:49:42.240
headless cms.org i think that's netify

0:49:39.920,0:49:44.000
whatever i think they felt like a new uh

0:49:42.240,0:49:45.520
a new sort of directory of all headless

0:49:44.000,0:49:46.880
cmss there's like 100

0:49:45.520,0:49:48.559
or something it's insane it's like

0:49:46.880,0:49:51.280
something right right right

0:49:48.559,0:49:53.040
all very few that sort of stand out sort

0:49:51.280,0:49:54.319
of like through their first or their

0:49:53.040,0:49:56.640
larger or they specialize into a

0:49:54.319,0:50:00.640
specific vertical

0:49:56.640,0:50:01.839
yeah yeah so a lot of options

0:50:00.640,0:50:03.119
yeah and then and then it's like the

0:50:01.839,0:50:04.480
front ends which is like i'm trying to

0:50:03.119,0:50:06.880
sort of figure out the front ends

0:50:04.480,0:50:08.000
more so you've got like fantastic and

0:50:06.880,0:50:09.280
versatile front

0:50:08.000,0:50:11.200
mobile if i just got acquired by

0:50:09.280,0:50:12.000
salesforce um but there's a lot of stuff

0:50:11.200,0:50:13.599
happening in the front

0:50:12.000,0:50:16.240
end world and then and then you've got

0:50:13.599,0:50:18.079
hosting like the cell and netlify

0:50:16.240,0:50:19.760
and it sort of makes things a lot easier

0:50:18.079,0:50:20.240
as well and sort of mm-hmm i imagine

0:50:19.760,0:50:22.640
there's

0:50:20.240,0:50:23.520
a it's like a almost like a digital

0:50:22.640,0:50:25.440
ocean or something

0:50:23.520,0:50:27.040
for e-commerce eventually where you can

0:50:25.440,0:50:29.280
just like click buttons

0:50:27.040,0:50:31.040
select your hosting providers like your

0:50:29.280,0:50:33.760
promotion engines like your cart

0:50:31.040,0:50:34.480
and right deploy and you just like

0:50:33.760,0:50:35.680
launch

0:50:34.480,0:50:37.359
the site and then you could like just

0:50:35.680,0:50:38.480
hammer it or you could have it you

0:50:37.359,0:50:40.559
program it as a script

0:50:38.480,0:50:42.400
and like spawn ten thousand websites so

0:50:40.559,0:50:44.960
they had a keystroke

0:50:42.400,0:50:45.520
and that's like suck data in for my feed

0:50:44.960,0:50:47.280
right

0:50:45.520,0:50:48.800
at that point let's like speak like

0:50:47.280,0:50:53.200
super superpowers

0:50:48.800,0:50:56.480
right did you say fantastic

0:50:53.200,0:50:59.920
fantastic uh there's a few uh

0:50:56.480,0:51:03.040
cool names so they're a headless

0:50:59.920,0:51:05.520
front end for e-commerce platforms

0:51:03.040,0:51:08.000
uh and cms's so like instead of like

0:51:05.520,0:51:10.240
building like something on the jam stack

0:51:08.000,0:51:11.680
um yourself you can pay them as a

0:51:10.240,0:51:11.920
subscription fee and they'll they'll do

0:51:11.680,0:51:14.079
the

0:51:11.920,0:51:15.680
do your storefront for you oh okay so

0:51:14.079,0:51:16.880
it's kind of like so instead of building

0:51:15.680,0:51:18.480
everything yourself you can kind of go

0:51:16.880,0:51:20.400
to one of these front end providers

0:51:18.480,0:51:22.240
and they kind of solve that problem

0:51:20.400,0:51:25.200
gotcha each each headless

0:51:22.240,0:51:26.559
vendor will have their own like examples

0:51:25.200,0:51:27.680
and accelerators and things and then

0:51:26.559,0:51:28.720
there's like these things that you could

0:51:27.680,0:51:30.559
use in production

0:51:28.720,0:51:31.680
and then some people just even then they

0:51:30.559,0:51:33.599
still go and build their own they just

0:51:31.680,0:51:35.680
look at these things as like references

0:51:33.599,0:51:36.960
and then decide we'll go i will get two

0:51:35.680,0:51:40.160
developers and we'll go build

0:51:36.960,0:51:42.240
it right right right in our stack

0:51:40.160,0:51:43.520
right there's a lot of choices which

0:51:42.240,0:51:45.119
also makes it difficult

0:51:43.520,0:51:47.440
right and that's right that's what i'm

0:51:45.119,0:51:48.640
trying to sort of i i'm working like

0:51:47.440,0:51:50.480
we haven't really talked about what i'm

0:51:48.640,0:51:53.200
doing sort of post acquisition but i'm

0:51:50.480,0:51:53.599
a consultant now and i'm kind of working

0:51:53.200,0:51:55.280
both

0:51:53.599,0:51:56.720
for the vendors themselves for product

0:51:55.280,0:51:58.640
marketing so helping them

0:51:56.720,0:52:01.119
with their sales and marketing processes

0:51:58.640,0:52:03.200
but also for the retailers and brands

0:52:01.119,0:52:04.880
evaluating vendors making those

0:52:03.200,0:52:06.720
technology choices

0:52:04.880,0:52:08.319
um because it's really hard like you and

0:52:06.720,0:52:10.079
i'm confused sometimes like

0:52:08.319,0:52:11.760
like someone will throw like another

0:52:10.079,0:52:12.960
like another vendor at me i'm like i

0:52:11.760,0:52:13.520
don't i've never heard of them like give

0:52:12.960,0:52:15.359
me like

0:52:13.520,0:52:17.280
an hour i'm gonna go deep in it as much

0:52:15.359,0:52:18.640
as i can check and then use all the

0:52:17.280,0:52:20.319
all the other data points that i've got

0:52:18.640,0:52:21.359
from like looking at all of the products

0:52:20.319,0:52:23.359
to kind of get a quick

0:52:21.359,0:52:25.280
gut feel yeah and then if you want me to

0:52:23.359,0:52:26.240
go deeper i could spend like half a day

0:52:25.280,0:52:28.640
kind of like doing

0:52:26.240,0:52:29.680
like really detailed investigation work

0:52:28.640,0:52:31.680
yeah yeah

0:52:29.680,0:52:33.040
usually usually the gut feel is like a

0:52:31.680,0:52:36.079
good enough yeah

0:52:33.040,0:52:39.599
checked yeah i think most people have

0:52:36.079,0:52:42.240
pretty sort of simplistic heuristics for

0:52:39.599,0:52:42.640
use this platform or use that platform

0:52:42.240,0:52:45.440
and

0:52:42.640,0:52:46.800
even if they do consult on a on a a

0:52:45.440,0:52:47.920
handful of different platforms like

0:52:46.800,0:52:49.440
they're a big commerce partner they're

0:52:47.920,0:52:50.240
also a magento partner shopify plus

0:52:49.440,0:52:51.920
partner

0:52:50.240,0:52:53.680
they probably have a few relatively

0:52:51.920,0:52:55.920
simple buckets that you kind of fall

0:52:53.680,0:52:59.119
into based on budget or a few different

0:52:55.920,0:53:00.880
high-level features positioning like you

0:52:59.119,0:53:04.319
have to like as a human you have to

0:53:00.880,0:53:07.280
emphasize all this like chaos right into

0:53:04.319,0:53:08.559
it's very simple because otherwise like

0:53:07.280,0:53:10.480
i don't know how you'd cope

0:53:08.559,0:53:12.000
like right right the world is over

0:53:10.480,0:53:13.359
communicated too there's a lot

0:53:12.000,0:53:14.319
a lot of marketing out there and stuff

0:53:13.359,0:53:15.280
you kind of have to try and get past

0:53:14.319,0:53:16.400
that a little bit

0:53:15.280,0:53:17.599
just to get to something that's a little

0:53:16.400,0:53:19.200
bit tangible and real and i feel like

0:53:17.599,0:53:20.160
that's kind of like coming back to that

0:53:19.200,0:53:21.280
magic

0:53:20.160,0:53:23.440
roundabout that's kind of what i was

0:53:21.280,0:53:24.640
kind of going for is kind of like

0:53:23.440,0:53:27.040
just getting a little bit more down to

0:53:24.640,0:53:28.559
like a realistic level as to it's

0:53:27.040,0:53:29.839
of relative it's all based on each other

0:53:28.559,0:53:30.640
kind of as well it's all kind of

0:53:29.839,0:53:33.680
subjective

0:53:30.640,0:53:35.920
but i think you mentioned um uh

0:53:33.680,0:53:38.319
what an acquisition by salesforce and i

0:53:35.920,0:53:40.559
think if i remember from the chart

0:53:38.319,0:53:42.800
salesforce and magento were in the

0:53:40.559,0:53:43.760
crevice of uh carelessness but if i

0:53:42.800,0:53:45.200
remember

0:53:43.760,0:53:47.280
salesforce was moving in the right

0:53:45.200,0:53:48.640
direction and magenta

0:53:47.280,0:53:50.319
that's why even in the right yeah

0:53:48.640,0:53:54.000
because the acquisition is kind of like

0:53:50.319,0:53:56.400
that's the timeline and then fighting

0:53:54.000,0:53:57.680
and what was that again what was that

0:53:56.400,0:53:59.599
actually

0:53:57.680,0:54:01.040
yeah that's mobify that's the headless

0:53:59.599,0:54:02.640
uh front end so they've

0:54:01.040,0:54:04.640
got you they've kind of in some ways

0:54:02.640,0:54:07.040
solved part of the headless problem

0:54:04.640,0:54:08.400
by acquiring a front end it doesn't

0:54:07.040,0:54:10.160
solve the monolith on the back end

0:54:08.400,0:54:11.119
though they still have like a terrible

0:54:10.160,0:54:13.119
cms and

0:54:11.119,0:54:14.480
back-end suite okay so like to fix that

0:54:13.119,0:54:15.040
to fix that either build like something

0:54:14.480,0:54:17.280
themselves

0:54:15.040,0:54:18.240
api first micro services or they go and

0:54:17.280,0:54:20.640
acquire one

0:54:18.240,0:54:21.359
yeah um that's what but to get them up

0:54:20.640,0:54:23.599
like

0:54:21.359,0:54:25.040
more like getting to the like horizontal

0:54:23.599,0:54:25.839
line like that's where they kind of need

0:54:25.040,0:54:27.760
to be

0:54:25.839,0:54:30.079
right um i've got like a headless like

0:54:27.760,0:54:34.319
cms roundabout as well but it's

0:54:30.079,0:54:34.319
okay it's chaos it's way more chaotic

0:54:35.280,0:54:39.280
yeah it's just insane like it's harder

0:54:37.359,0:54:40.799
to create an ecommerce platform than it

0:54:39.280,0:54:42.720
is to create a cms like

0:54:40.799,0:54:44.079
cms is easy like there's no logic it's

0:54:42.720,0:54:47.119
just like data like

0:54:44.079,0:54:48.000
input and outputs but a cms any kind of

0:54:47.119,0:54:50.720
platform is like

0:54:48.000,0:54:52.480
calculations promos tax right right

0:54:50.720,0:54:54.319
right right right

0:54:52.480,0:54:56.160
there's more complexity there but the

0:54:54.319,0:54:59.520
quadrant is more

0:54:56.160,0:55:01.839
complicated because there's

0:54:59.520,0:55:03.200
i think probably also also because the

0:55:01.839,0:55:05.040
space is newer

0:55:03.200,0:55:07.040
so kind of goes back to that martech law

0:55:05.040,0:55:08.880
right like the e-commerce platforms have

0:55:07.040,0:55:10.640
have all kind of a little bit been set

0:55:08.880,0:55:12.160
in the path that they're on

0:55:10.640,0:55:13.760
whereas like these headless cmss are

0:55:12.160,0:55:14.799
probably all relatively newer

0:55:13.760,0:55:16.480
like you said it's sort of a

0:55:14.799,0:55:17.200
fundamentally simpler problem to solve

0:55:16.480,0:55:18.880
so then

0:55:17.200,0:55:20.160
you sort of you pull in like wordpress

0:55:18.880,0:55:21.119
into that drupal or something and

0:55:20.160,0:55:22.160
they're kind of like yeah they're kind

0:55:21.119,0:55:23.920
of maybe like blue

0:55:22.160,0:55:26.480
a little bit i don't know if you uh

0:55:23.920,0:55:28.960
you're aware of the uh

0:55:26.480,0:55:29.839
the there's a discussion at the netleyfy

0:55:28.960,0:55:31.359
um

0:55:29.839,0:55:33.520
you comment i think it's headless ecom

0:55:31.359,0:55:34.640
summit or the headless summit like jump

0:55:33.520,0:55:35.520
stack summit or something in the past

0:55:34.640,0:55:37.440
like week or two

0:55:35.520,0:55:38.720
where the netlify founder had a debate

0:55:37.440,0:55:41.200
with the wordpress founder

0:55:38.720,0:55:42.799
like i didn't i instigated that on

0:55:41.200,0:55:44.480
twitter i was like tagging them both

0:55:42.799,0:55:47.280
yes come on like we're gonna have a

0:55:44.480,0:55:48.799
discussion about this oh really i think

0:55:47.280,0:55:49.920
any sort of like a right tool for the

0:55:48.799,0:55:51.280
job thing like wordpress is good for

0:55:49.920,0:55:52.640
certain people and like yes they're kind

0:55:51.280,0:55:53.359
of moving towards headless a little bit

0:55:52.640,0:55:54.720
too

0:55:53.359,0:55:56.799
and you can you can build them up you

0:55:54.720,0:55:58.000
can build that stuff but uh yeah i kind

0:55:56.799,0:55:59.119
of like to just agitate people a little

0:55:58.000,0:55:59.760
bit and just have the discussions

0:55:59.119,0:56:01.359
because then

0:55:59.760,0:56:03.440
more people become aware of like newer

0:56:01.359,0:56:05.520
technologies and newer approaches

0:56:03.440,0:56:06.480
everyone should benefit in the end so

0:56:05.520,0:56:09.200
right

0:56:06.480,0:56:10.480
the wordpress the wordpress ceo's name

0:56:09.200,0:56:13.520
is escaping me matt

0:56:10.480,0:56:16.400
uh yeah they're both called ma we should

0:56:13.520,0:56:17.040
come even more what's this what's his

0:56:16.400,0:56:20.319
last name

0:56:17.040,0:56:22.400
matt anyways

0:56:20.319,0:56:24.319
i kind of wanted this he has a pink

0:56:22.400,0:56:26.559
circle avatar on twitter

0:56:24.319,0:56:28.079
which i remember but so you instigated

0:56:26.559,0:56:31.359
that like

0:56:28.079,0:56:32.480
discussion between them the ceo wrote a

0:56:31.359,0:56:33.920
letter

0:56:32.480,0:56:36.319
on like on the blog or something of

0:56:33.920,0:56:37.359
netlify and then the wordpress founder

0:56:36.319,0:56:38.720
responds but they weren't talking to

0:56:37.359,0:56:40.960
each other so i was like just tagged

0:56:38.720,0:56:42.480
them both and like

0:56:40.960,0:56:43.680
just like see you thinking about when

0:56:42.480,0:56:45.520
they start talking about having a debate

0:56:43.680,0:56:47.200
and stuff and then that got arranged

0:56:45.520,0:56:48.960
and then like i don't know the chat was

0:56:47.200,0:56:51.200
crazy so they um

0:56:48.960,0:56:52.400
never if i were using uh i can't

0:56:51.200,0:56:53.920
remember the name of the tool but

0:56:52.400,0:56:55.920
you have a life just be like twitch

0:56:53.920,0:56:57.200
there's like thousands and thousands of

0:56:55.920,0:56:59.040
people like watching

0:56:57.200,0:57:01.200
all like trolling each other and like

0:56:59.040,0:57:04.799
fanboys coming out he's like

0:57:01.200,0:57:06.000
it's hilarious it got wild

0:57:04.799,0:57:08.160
yeah and they're like they're like

0:57:06.000,0:57:08.720
moderating the chat like like doesn't

0:57:08.160,0:57:12.720
moderate

0:57:08.720,0:57:14.880
around delete all their like profanity

0:57:12.720,0:57:16.319
yeah a few people people love like like

0:57:14.880,0:57:17.440
like technology companies you kind of

0:57:16.319,0:57:20.160
become like it's like

0:57:17.440,0:57:21.680
yeah and it's it's also like you know

0:57:20.160,0:57:25.040
people get religious about

0:57:21.680,0:57:26.079
platforms you know it just happens yeah

0:57:25.040,0:57:27.599
think that's gonna be i think i think

0:57:26.079,0:57:29.599
that's just a bit crazy like i'm a big

0:57:27.599,0:57:30.720
believer in like rachel's for the job i

0:57:29.599,0:57:32.400
was at university i was doing like

0:57:30.720,0:57:34.000
wordpress and stuff and like

0:57:32.400,0:57:35.839
yeah it's good for a certain type of

0:57:34.000,0:57:39.119
like person or company

0:57:35.839,0:57:41.040
yeah that's not what i would use now but

0:57:39.119,0:57:42.720
yeah it's their own if the job that's

0:57:41.040,0:57:45.119
fine one of the things i

0:57:42.720,0:57:46.559
i think might be interesting is to like

0:57:45.119,0:57:46.880
have one of the things i keep thinking

0:57:46.559,0:57:51.359
about

0:57:46.880,0:57:53.839
is like a podcast with um a merchant

0:57:51.359,0:57:54.960
like uh in two different two different

0:57:53.839,0:57:56.960
um consultants

0:57:54.960,0:57:58.160
that specialize in different platforms

0:57:56.960,0:58:00.240
and kind of like

0:57:58.160,0:58:01.599
basically doing a consulting session

0:58:00.240,0:58:04.960
live on the air

0:58:01.599,0:58:06.319
and proposing different um solutions

0:58:04.960,0:58:07.599
to solve their problems right so it's

0:58:06.319,0:58:08.079
like well we need this so we need this

0:58:07.599,0:58:10.880
integration

0:58:08.079,0:58:11.680
and that and it out it's one of those

0:58:10.880,0:58:14.480
things it could be

0:58:11.680,0:58:15.839
just chaos or yeah it can be chaos it's

0:58:14.480,0:58:18.480
gonna be really dull it could also be

0:58:15.839,0:58:18.960
like really interesting we would do the

0:58:18.480,0:58:20.160
that's

0:58:18.960,0:58:22.000
what we would do like in the sales

0:58:20.160,0:58:22.559
process at multi we wouldn't just sell

0:58:22.000,0:58:24.240
molten

0:58:22.559,0:58:25.760
we would be selling like 10 other

0:58:24.240,0:58:27.520
products alongside us

0:58:25.760,0:58:29.040
yeah based on like the problem kind of

0:58:27.520,0:58:31.839
presented with right

0:58:29.040,0:58:32.799
right and it's like so many of those

0:58:31.839,0:58:34.839
discussions

0:58:32.799,0:58:36.160
like all of these mid-market enterprise

0:58:34.839,0:58:38.799
sales

0:58:36.160,0:58:39.520
workflows are all behind closed doors

0:58:38.799,0:58:41.440
and

0:58:39.520,0:58:43.200
sometimes there's weird incentives and

0:58:41.440,0:58:44.160
weird stuff going on and it's just

0:58:43.200,0:58:45.599
there's something to me that'd be

0:58:44.160,0:58:47.200
interesting about getting those

0:58:45.599,0:58:48.960
conversations out into the open

0:58:47.200,0:58:50.480
obviously there's limitations like a

0:58:48.960,0:58:52.160
retailer can't just

0:58:50.480,0:58:53.760
talk about all the private stuff within

0:58:52.160,0:58:55.599
their rfp

0:58:53.760,0:58:57.599
uh publicly but i don't know there's

0:58:55.599,0:58:59.359
something to me that would be neat about

0:58:57.599,0:59:01.200
getting those conversations out into the

0:58:59.359,0:59:02.960
open

0:59:01.200,0:59:04.799
yeah you'd have to get that with a hard

0:59:02.960,0:59:05.280
thing finding a retailer to like play

0:59:04.799,0:59:08.400
ball

0:59:05.280,0:59:11.119
like when they do it publicly yeah but

0:59:08.400,0:59:12.880
even yeah even just kind of like it's a

0:59:11.119,0:59:14.480
like for even for a smaller starts like

0:59:12.880,0:59:15.839
a if you can find like a d2c

0:59:14.480,0:59:17.440
brand or something that's just starting

0:59:15.839,0:59:18.480
out or something like a cool one that's

0:59:17.440,0:59:20.400
like really transparent

0:59:18.480,0:59:21.280
yeah yeah the cool one that's been like

0:59:20.400,0:59:22.799
maybe they've got a little bit of

0:59:21.280,0:59:24.160
funding or something and it's like still

0:59:22.799,0:59:25.359
privately owned and stuff like that

0:59:24.160,0:59:28.480
would be

0:59:25.359,0:59:29.920
um one way to go because you you'll be

0:59:28.480,0:59:31.359
talking to the decision maker and the

0:59:29.920,0:59:32.319
person that can maybe have to implement

0:59:31.359,0:59:34.480
it maybe

0:59:32.319,0:59:35.359
i remember one customer was the cmo and

0:59:34.480,0:59:37.359
the developer

0:59:35.359,0:59:39.839
like whenever one of our six figure

0:59:37.359,0:59:43.599
deals it was like it was a dtc brand and

0:59:39.839,0:59:43.599
like the deal was like very quick

0:59:44.400,0:59:50.160
the cmo was the developer

0:59:47.680,0:59:51.040
yeah like those deals quite the best

0:59:50.160,0:59:52.400
because like you're

0:59:51.040,0:59:53.599
confidence one person but you don't have

0:59:52.400,0:59:55.280
to yeah you don't have to sit in front

0:59:53.599,0:59:56.799
of a room of 20 people

0:59:55.280,0:59:58.640
and try and tell each person how they're

0:59:56.799,0:59:59.280
going to do their job like six months

0:59:58.640,1:00:01.520
from now

0:59:59.280,1:00:04.079
yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah on a

1:00:01.520,1:00:07.440
conference call with 20 different people

1:00:04.079,1:00:09.280
uh yeah so i'm not sure if i was reading

1:00:07.440,1:00:10.240
this part of the chart correctly but it

1:00:09.280,1:00:14.559
seems like the

1:00:10.240,1:00:15.839
the aero vector for uh big commerce

1:00:14.559,1:00:18.079
was showing that it was like

1:00:15.839,1:00:20.160
accelerating faster

1:00:18.079,1:00:21.760
along the execution access it was like

1:00:20.160,1:00:22.079
the arrow was longer i don't know if i

1:00:21.760,1:00:24.240
was

1:00:22.079,1:00:25.760
misreading that as compared to like

1:00:24.240,1:00:27.920
shopify

1:00:25.760,1:00:29.520
yeah i think so i mean i feel like

1:00:27.920,1:00:30.160
shopify is yes moving towards headless

1:00:29.520,1:00:31.760
and like i've

1:00:30.160,1:00:33.119
spoke to a few shopify plus agencies

1:00:31.760,1:00:33.920
that are doing headless implementations

1:00:33.119,1:00:35.119
but they

1:00:33.920,1:00:36.400
they are saying the same thing that i'm

1:00:35.119,1:00:37.680
saying which is like you you're kind of

1:00:36.400,1:00:38.799
throwing all the stuff that makes you

1:00:37.680,1:00:40.480
fight great out the window and just

1:00:38.799,1:00:41.440
doing the headless thing for the site

1:00:40.480,1:00:43.839
speed

1:00:41.440,1:00:45.839
um but yeah for the big commerce side i

1:00:43.839,1:00:48.319
think that obviously there's the ipo

1:00:45.839,1:00:49.760
i also see their apis and their

1:00:48.319,1:00:51.359
marketing in the market

1:00:49.760,1:00:53.599
a lot i feel like they're doing a better

1:00:51.359,1:00:55.599
execution of headless

1:00:53.599,1:00:57.520
than shopify is they've moved faster so

1:00:55.599,1:00:59.839
like a few years ago shopify and vidcom

1:00:57.520,1:01:02.079
was like duking it out in the smb space

1:00:59.839,1:01:02.880
and now i feel like bitcomas is beating

1:01:02.079,1:01:05.440
them to the punch

1:01:02.880,1:01:06.000
a little bit into the headless space

1:01:05.440,1:01:08.160
that's kind of

1:01:06.000,1:01:09.040
my my read what did you both adopt you

1:01:08.160,1:01:10.880
know

1:01:09.040,1:01:12.400
there were some graphs i can't remember

1:01:10.880,1:01:14.240
who posted them i think it's just

1:01:12.400,1:01:15.839
built with graphs for like shopify

1:01:14.240,1:01:17.760
versus big commerce

1:01:15.839,1:01:19.680
uh in the in the top like 1000 websites

1:01:17.760,1:01:20.480
and you can yes shopify is ahead but you

1:01:19.680,1:01:22.559
should see like

1:01:20.480,1:01:25.280
the growth curve of like big commerce in

1:01:22.559,1:01:26.720
comparison like shopify is kind of like

1:01:25.280,1:01:28.400
beginning to ease off whereas like big

1:01:26.720,1:01:28.960
commerce is going open like they're good

1:01:28.400,1:01:30.079
like

1:01:28.960,1:01:32.079
probably like only a few months away

1:01:30.079,1:01:34.799
from vidcon taking shopify

1:01:32.079,1:01:35.119
really yeah that's interesting i think

1:01:34.799,1:01:36.480
that

1:01:35.119,1:01:37.440
they've got like a massive like warchest

1:01:36.480,1:01:38.880
of like funding obviously on the

1:01:37.440,1:01:41.440
marketing side right

1:01:38.880,1:01:42.640
right well they both have massive war

1:01:41.440,1:01:44.960
chests

1:01:42.640,1:01:46.559
right i think it's just like how they're

1:01:44.960,1:01:48.160
being applied and i think shopify is

1:01:46.559,1:01:50.079
fighting a perception issue now like the

1:01:48.160,1:01:52.640
challenge of like being bucketed as

1:01:50.079,1:01:53.599
smv yes they've got shopify plus then

1:01:52.640,1:01:55.119
it's going to it's going to work for

1:01:53.599,1:01:57.680
some people but

1:01:55.119,1:01:59.280
um like it's just like again it's like

1:01:57.680,1:02:01.119
you get into the details on the apis and

1:01:59.280,1:02:02.480
you speak to like maybe a cto or

1:02:01.119,1:02:03.839
technical decision maker of one of these

1:02:02.480,1:02:04.799
enterprises that's choosing the ecom

1:02:03.839,1:02:07.520
platform and like

1:02:04.799,1:02:08.799
shopify is a bad word like they just

1:02:07.520,1:02:09.520
don't want to kind of go near it they

1:02:08.799,1:02:11.039
kind of

1:02:09.520,1:02:13.039
like they've already put it in their

1:02:11.039,1:02:15.599
positioning bucket and they're like

1:02:13.039,1:02:16.559
yeah yeah get it essentially big

1:02:15.599,1:02:18.319
commerce i don't think it's got that

1:02:16.559,1:02:20.559
problem i think like they lost the smv

1:02:18.319,1:02:21.440
space a little bit but now that's giving

1:02:20.559,1:02:24.000
them some like

1:02:21.440,1:02:25.119
space to get very interesting category

1:02:24.000,1:02:26.799
for themselves

1:02:25.119,1:02:28.000
which they're still a hybrid they still

1:02:26.799,1:02:28.640
have sort of the page builders and the

1:02:28.000,1:02:30.880
shopify

1:02:28.640,1:02:32.640
type stuff and if you go the headless

1:02:30.880,1:02:34.400
route you again put it in the bin but

1:02:32.640,1:02:36.640
i feel like the big commerce apis are

1:02:34.400,1:02:38.960
better and they have a nicer approach to

1:02:36.640,1:02:40.960
the ecosystem it feels like they're

1:02:38.960,1:02:42.400
like not as sort of controlling of the

1:02:40.960,1:02:48.160
checkout as well you see that you know

1:02:42.400,1:02:49.359
the fast like integration other

1:02:48.160,1:02:52.559
categories and stuff

1:02:49.359,1:02:54.799
that's interesting um it's funny because

1:02:52.559,1:02:56.400
i think i've heard that a handful of

1:02:54.799,1:02:57.920
times that sort of big commerce is

1:02:56.400,1:03:00.480
better for headless

1:02:57.920,1:03:01.680
and i don't even know why it's like that

1:03:00.480,1:03:03.520
positioning thing you're saying it's

1:03:01.680,1:03:05.680
just kind of been positioned that way

1:03:03.520,1:03:06.960
and so i have that perception but in

1:03:05.680,1:03:09.119
terms of the details

1:03:06.960,1:03:10.160
i don't i don't even know why that's the

1:03:09.119,1:03:12.000
case

1:03:10.160,1:03:14.000
there are some details there like if you

1:03:12.000,1:03:15.200
look at the apis and stuff it's like

1:03:14.000,1:03:17.359
super new ones and yeah

1:03:15.200,1:03:19.280
you have to get like like just like

1:03:17.359,1:03:20.880
comparing api responses to kind of see

1:03:19.280,1:03:22.240
the differences they do they do matter

1:03:20.880,1:03:22.640
like the developer experience does

1:03:22.240,1:03:26.240
matter

1:03:22.640,1:03:28.400
like um for like a

1:03:26.240,1:03:29.920
a non-technical business decision maker

1:03:28.400,1:03:31.280
like they're not gonna have a clue like

1:03:29.920,1:03:32.880
well that equates to like a good

1:03:31.280,1:03:35.119
developer experience will equate to a

1:03:32.880,1:03:37.680
faster implementation and a better

1:03:35.119,1:03:39.359
end product um because there's less and

1:03:37.680,1:03:40.559
less ways for things to go wrong because

1:03:39.359,1:03:44.240
it's yeah being put together

1:03:40.559,1:03:46.799
any specific um any specific ap like

1:03:44.240,1:03:47.839
like like uh api calls come to mind

1:03:46.799,1:03:50.960
where

1:03:47.839,1:03:52.880
they have a a lot more functionality on

1:03:50.960,1:03:54.319
the big commerce side

1:03:52.880,1:03:55.359
i don't i don't i think it may be just

1:03:54.319,1:03:56.880
around the checkout i don't think

1:03:55.359,1:03:58.799
there's there's too much

1:03:56.880,1:04:00.079
like from a feature to feature thing

1:03:58.799,1:04:01.839
like again like feature to feature

1:04:00.079,1:04:04.240
comparisons uh

1:04:01.839,1:04:06.079
like in some ways pointless like it

1:04:04.240,1:04:07.599
comes down to like the new ones

1:04:06.079,1:04:09.200
oh if a feature is missing you can go

1:04:07.599,1:04:10.559
and find something else it kind of fills

1:04:09.200,1:04:11.119
that gap and maybe actually does it

1:04:10.559,1:04:14.160
better

1:04:11.119,1:04:15.760
so you know like one comparison chart i

1:04:14.160,1:04:18.799
would be interested in seeing

1:04:15.760,1:04:20.319
would be api coverage of like shopify

1:04:18.799,1:04:22.480
magento big commerce

1:04:20.319,1:04:25.440
commerce tools is that something that

1:04:22.480,1:04:27.359
you could be sort of um

1:04:25.440,1:04:29.039
you could be sort of objective about it

1:04:27.359,1:04:31.440
right like a marketing

1:04:29.039,1:04:33.039
feature uh functionality comparison

1:04:31.440,1:04:33.920
chart is always going to be biased but i

1:04:33.039,1:04:35.839
feel like

1:04:33.920,1:04:37.119
uh in terms of api coverage it's a

1:04:35.839,1:04:37.760
little more black and white it's like

1:04:37.119,1:04:40.079
okay

1:04:37.760,1:04:42.160
on these objects which methods do you

1:04:40.079,1:04:44.720
have which fields do you have

1:04:42.160,1:04:45.359
and just a big ass chart where you could

1:04:44.720,1:04:47.200
sort of

1:04:45.359,1:04:48.799
so if so if you're building a loyalty

1:04:47.200,1:04:49.839
points integration and you want to know

1:04:48.799,1:04:51.440
about the customer

1:04:49.839,1:04:53.440
object and the product object and the

1:04:51.440,1:04:54.960
checkout object you could just see them

1:04:53.440,1:04:57.119
all right there in front of you

1:04:54.960,1:04:58.799
the oh shopify doesn't give me like i

1:04:57.119,1:05:00.240
remember there was a time where shopify

1:04:58.799,1:05:02.559
wouldn't give you

1:05:00.240,1:05:03.520
ability to create promo codes over the

1:05:02.559,1:05:05.200
api

1:05:03.520,1:05:06.559
they had to be created manually in the

1:05:05.200,1:05:08.559
back end so then

1:05:06.559,1:05:10.079
the apps would create some workaround

1:05:08.559,1:05:11.599
where they'd make it easy for you to

1:05:10.079,1:05:13.440
copy and paste

1:05:11.599,1:05:15.200
promo codes yeah yeah and then i think

1:05:13.440,1:05:16.480
they eventually covered that but those

1:05:15.200,1:05:18.160
are the specifics so it's like the

1:05:16.480,1:05:20.480
devils and the details

1:05:18.160,1:05:21.520
you know yeah i think this does this the

1:05:20.480,1:05:23.440
i guess the

1:05:21.520,1:05:25.039
the functional like requirements like

1:05:23.440,1:05:26.640
all these like categories like

1:05:25.039,1:05:28.960
the catalog service the car service to

1:05:26.640,1:05:31.440
check out the order etc you could have

1:05:28.960,1:05:32.880
like a blow by blow for each of those

1:05:31.440,1:05:35.119
you get into sort of

1:05:32.880,1:05:36.319
like eventually yes every platform will

1:05:35.119,1:05:37.760
be covered like

1:05:36.319,1:05:39.039
at that level but then there's like the

1:05:37.760,1:05:39.680
bells and whistles below that which is

1:05:39.039,1:05:41.520
like

1:05:39.680,1:05:43.280
the granularity when you get into that

1:05:41.520,1:05:44.160
very specific types of functionality and

1:05:43.280,1:05:45.599
things

1:05:44.160,1:05:46.799
uh which because it becomes more

1:05:45.599,1:05:47.599
difficult because that's when things

1:05:46.799,1:05:49.039
begin to kind of

1:05:47.599,1:05:50.720
drift and differentiate a little bit

1:05:49.039,1:05:52.480
between each different platform

1:05:50.720,1:05:54.000
in terms of how they execute that

1:05:52.480,1:05:56.240
feature perhaps

1:05:54.000,1:05:57.200
so because it seems like a monumental

1:05:56.240,1:05:58.720
challenge which is probably why it

1:05:57.200,1:06:00.079
hasn't been done

1:05:58.720,1:06:01.760
there is a product i don't know if you

1:06:00.079,1:06:04.960
come across an api to cart

1:06:01.760,1:06:06.559
and they focus on like integrate syncing

1:06:04.960,1:06:07.760
of data between platforms and they have

1:06:06.559,1:06:09.520
a chart that kind of looks

1:06:07.760,1:06:10.880
like that in terms of which ones they've

1:06:09.520,1:06:13.760
integrated with

1:06:10.880,1:06:14.880
um which is like you kind of useful but

1:06:13.760,1:06:16.240
it's like again it's only like the

1:06:14.880,1:06:16.640
superficial like high levels to play

1:06:16.240,1:06:18.720
they've got

1:06:16.640,1:06:19.760
the generic like descriptions and yes or

1:06:18.720,1:06:22.960
no's

1:06:19.760,1:06:24.960
but um like it's hard because you could

1:06:22.960,1:06:25.839
imagine like commerce tools has got 100

1:06:24.960,1:06:27.599
coverage because they

1:06:25.839,1:06:29.680
everything is api first right if you

1:06:27.599,1:06:31.200
look at like shopify and they've got

1:06:29.680,1:06:33.440
like a page builder or something

1:06:31.200,1:06:35.280
maybe the page builder isn't you know

1:06:33.440,1:06:36.319
api first but everything yeah else and

1:06:35.280,1:06:37.839
the

1:06:36.319,1:06:39.920
checkout maybe is yeah there's

1:06:37.839,1:06:42.319
similarities and then like the nuance

1:06:39.920,1:06:43.920
yeah yeah i mean everybody shoots for

1:06:42.319,1:06:46.640
100 coverage

1:06:43.920,1:06:47.039
nobody has 100 coverage unless they have

1:06:46.640,1:06:49.119
to

1:06:47.039,1:06:50.960
like like ecommerce tools if you

1:06:49.119,1:06:52.880
literally don't have a head

1:06:50.960,1:06:55.119
then you you have no choice you have to

1:06:52.880,1:06:57.520
be 100 coverage by definition

1:06:55.119,1:06:59.520
otherwise you're going to try your best

1:06:57.520,1:07:00.880
maybe the marketing team is gonna say

1:06:59.520,1:07:02.799
you have a hundred percent but you're

1:07:00.880,1:07:03.920
not gonna have a hundred percent

1:07:02.799,1:07:06.079
there's also things that you might not

1:07:03.920,1:07:07.599
even consider that should be an api like

1:07:06.079,1:07:09.440
we had apis at milton that we didn't

1:07:07.599,1:07:09.760
release but like we wanted to but it was

1:07:09.440,1:07:11.119
like

1:07:09.760,1:07:12.720
hard to figure out how to do it without

1:07:11.119,1:07:14.000
like breaking out systems like we had

1:07:12.720,1:07:15.599
like a stores api

1:07:14.000,1:07:17.119
so you could like programmatically

1:07:15.599,1:07:18.960
create stores because we had the old

1:07:17.119,1:07:20.640
like we wanted like people to like the

1:07:18.960,1:07:22.240
stroke of a key to it to like launch

1:07:20.640,1:07:24.319
like thousands of sites but obviously

1:07:22.240,1:07:25.920
behind that you've got to figure out how

1:07:24.319,1:07:27.839
to scale that so like we were like

1:07:25.920,1:07:29.839
we don't want to like break heroin like

1:07:27.839,1:07:31.760
infrastructure like by doing that

1:07:29.839,1:07:33.440
yeah and we have like like kind of

1:07:31.760,1:07:34.240
factoring like authentication layers and

1:07:33.440,1:07:36.400
like how

1:07:34.240,1:07:38.400
how did how yeah this is the entity

1:07:36.400,1:07:39.760
store versus an organization or user or

1:07:38.400,1:07:41.280
something so we have like

1:07:39.760,1:07:43.359
other sort of roblox kind of getting

1:07:41.280,1:07:44.400
that released to be consumable but our

1:07:43.359,1:07:46.640
our dashboards

1:07:44.400,1:07:48.000
use those apis like if you actually like

1:07:46.640,1:07:49.760
inspected like

1:07:48.000,1:07:51.680
in the browser you'll see those api

1:07:49.760,1:07:53.280
calls so you could technically use them

1:07:51.680,1:07:54.799
you could actually like they weren't

1:07:53.280,1:07:56.799
documented but you could go and go in

1:07:54.799,1:07:58.799
there and use them so

1:07:56.799,1:08:00.079
even yeah even even functionality that's

1:07:58.799,1:08:01.760
like maybe

1:08:00.079,1:08:03.680
maybe part of a different like product

1:08:01.760,1:08:04.079
journey was api first as well just

1:08:03.680,1:08:07.520
because

1:08:04.079,1:08:09.119
like everything was built as an api nice

1:08:07.520,1:08:11.359
nice which shopify might have as well

1:08:09.119,1:08:13.680
but like again it's sort of how do you

1:08:11.359,1:08:14.400
how do you externalize those that could

1:08:13.680,1:08:16.640
be

1:08:14.400,1:08:19.120
a challenge i think we have a show title

1:08:16.640,1:08:22.000
here everything was built as an api

1:08:19.120,1:08:23.120
um well this was uh this is a fun chat

1:08:22.000,1:08:26.319
um

1:08:23.120,1:08:28.880
what uh any last things you want to uh

1:08:26.319,1:08:30.159
point people to resources or where

1:08:28.880,1:08:31.839
people can find out

1:08:30.159,1:08:33.279
more information about you find you

1:08:31.839,1:08:34.799
online where's the best place to find

1:08:33.279,1:08:36.719
you online that kind of thing

1:08:34.799,1:08:38.000
uh i guess i guess the best place is

1:08:36.719,1:08:39.440
linkedin that's probably where

1:08:38.000,1:08:41.279
i'm most active like i didn't used to

1:08:39.440,1:08:43.040
use linkedin but now now i do like seems

1:08:41.279,1:08:44.000
like a lot of people on there that kind

1:08:43.040,1:08:46.000
of

1:08:44.000,1:08:47.759
want to like find out about things uh

1:08:46.000,1:08:48.880
compared to like other social networks

1:08:47.759,1:08:50.319
i'm on twitter too but not

1:08:48.880,1:08:51.759
sort of active on there so that's sort

1:08:50.319,1:08:52.719
of the first port of call i kind of try

1:08:51.759,1:08:55.040
and feature like

1:08:52.719,1:08:56.239
interesting like posts that i put out

1:08:55.040,1:08:59.440
there um

1:08:56.239,1:09:00.880
so adam stork on linkedin um and

1:08:59.440,1:09:02.319
yeah like i think that's sort of the

1:09:00.880,1:09:03.600
best place to find me there's like one

1:09:02.319,1:09:05.279
other thing we didn't get to talk about

1:09:03.600,1:09:07.359
and i don't know it's like dropped off

1:09:05.279,1:09:09.120
of my like featured content thing now

1:09:07.359,1:09:10.799
uh there's like the commerce graph which

1:09:09.120,1:09:12.159
is again abstract

1:09:10.799,1:09:14.000
i'll send you the yeah we can get that

1:09:12.159,1:09:15.040
in we can get that in i i don't have

1:09:14.000,1:09:16.880
that in front of me i don't i don't

1:09:15.040,1:09:18.000
remember it offhand sorry about that

1:09:16.880,1:09:20.480
i don't know i don't know if you know

1:09:18.000,1:09:21.600
like graph theory and like facebook and

1:09:20.480,1:09:22.400
social graphs and that kind of little

1:09:21.600,1:09:24.319
bit yeah

1:09:22.400,1:09:26.159
yeah yeah i kind of like applied the

1:09:24.319,1:09:28.319
same line of thinking to the commerce

1:09:26.159,1:09:29.440
like space so instead of like focusing

1:09:28.319,1:09:31.279
on features

1:09:29.440,1:09:32.799
the value is in the connection

1:09:31.279,1:09:34.000
connections between those features and

1:09:32.799,1:09:36.319
helps us describe

1:09:34.000,1:09:37.600
oh that's interesting basically you can

1:09:36.319,1:09:39.759
you can describe headless you can

1:09:37.600,1:09:41.120
describe omnichannel they can describe

1:09:39.759,1:09:43.520
like different customer journeys and

1:09:41.120,1:09:44.960
checkouts and complexities and things

1:09:43.520,1:09:46.239
because it's all like how the data

1:09:44.960,1:09:48.159
relates to each other that's a commerce

1:09:46.239,1:09:50.000
platform

1:09:48.159,1:09:51.600
however how the data flows through

1:09:50.000,1:09:52.400
checkout or you know on the behind the

1:09:51.600,1:09:53.359
scenes or

1:09:52.400,1:09:55.600
on the front desk that's a really

1:09:53.359,1:09:56.640
interesting idea yeah that is a very

1:09:55.600,1:09:58.480
interesting idea

1:09:56.640,1:10:00.320
um because so much of it is you're

1:09:58.480,1:10:01.920
connecting uh

1:10:00.320,1:10:03.199
data from one thing to another one app

1:10:01.920,1:10:04.320
to another you're syncing you're

1:10:03.199,1:10:06.480
importing

1:10:04.320,1:10:08.159
and there's a lot of value created in

1:10:06.480,1:10:10.159
those those uh

1:10:08.159,1:10:11.520
edges right between the between the

1:10:10.159,1:10:13.520
nodes and the graph

1:10:11.520,1:10:14.960
i also kind of why headsets i guess

1:10:13.520,1:10:16.719
creates like a

1:10:14.960,1:10:18.159
a solution that is greater than the sum

1:10:16.719,1:10:19.440
of its parts because you have kind of a

1:10:18.159,1:10:20.960
compounding effect

1:10:19.440,1:10:22.880
all these best-in-class services are

1:10:20.960,1:10:27.199
better than a generic

1:10:22.880,1:10:27.199
like mediocre monolith basically

1:10:27.440,1:10:31.120
but that kind of like like like a good

1:10:29.760,1:10:34.159
cms right like a good

1:10:31.120,1:10:36.320
headless cms um

1:10:34.159,1:10:37.520
it's both right it's the node like the

1:10:36.320,1:10:39.040
better the node

1:10:37.520,1:10:40.880
like if you have a really good node for

1:10:39.040,1:10:42.480
your cms management that's just easy to

1:10:40.880,1:10:44.800
use and friendly and

1:10:42.480,1:10:46.719
beautiful then then your solution is

1:10:44.800,1:10:49.199
more powerful and then you want the edge

1:10:46.719,1:10:50.640
to also be powerful too so that it can

1:10:49.199,1:10:53.040
integrate everything everywhere it needs

1:10:50.640,1:10:53.760
to go but it feels like it's kind of

1:10:53.040,1:10:55.280
both

1:10:53.760,1:10:57.520
which i guess is the point of a graph

1:10:55.280,1:10:58.480
it's both yeah you've got the nodes and

1:10:57.520,1:11:00.000
you got the

1:10:58.480,1:11:01.520
the connections between between the

1:11:00.000,1:11:02.880
nodes yeah people

1:11:01.520,1:11:04.480
focus on the nodes and again it's kind

1:11:02.880,1:11:04.880
of the feature comparison stuff but

1:11:04.480,1:11:07.679
really

1:11:04.880,1:11:08.320
it's right connections that are powerful

1:11:07.679,1:11:10.719
too

1:11:08.320,1:11:12.719
and where value is like really created

1:11:10.719,1:11:15.120
like moving stuff from one system to

1:11:12.719,1:11:17.760
another so that it can be used in a more

1:11:15.120,1:11:18.640
optimal fashion um but yeah that's

1:11:17.760,1:11:19.760
that's what i

1:11:18.640,1:11:22.000
i would recommend i think it's on the

1:11:19.760,1:11:23.840
elastic path website now commerce graph

1:11:22.000,1:11:25.840
blog post i might do a redux i had like

1:11:23.840,1:11:27.199
a i've got like a whole space sort of

1:11:25.840,1:11:29.040
mapped out in like a grid

1:11:27.199,1:11:30.880
is like it's like a periodic table of

1:11:29.040,1:11:32.159
like commerce features and things

1:11:30.880,1:11:33.760
like that because it's like well there's

1:11:32.159,1:11:35.440
not i keep like just sort of documenting

1:11:33.760,1:11:36.719
stuff like in like diagrams because like

1:11:35.440,1:11:39.040
otherwise i'll just like rattle around

1:11:36.719,1:11:40.560
in my head but hopefully i can

1:11:39.040,1:11:42.640
train like at least post one interesting

1:11:40.560,1:11:45.920
thing like a week or a month

1:11:42.640,1:11:49.600
nice people people fun yeah i love the

1:11:45.920,1:11:49.600
stuff you're posting so keep it coming