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#102 Isaiah Bollinger - CEO of A Leading eCommerce Digital Agency & Co-Host of B2B eCommerce Podcast

Isaiah is the CEO of Trellis - A Leading eCommerce Digital Agency & Co-Host of "The Hard Truth About B2B eCommerce"

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/isaiah-bollinger/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/IsaiahBollinger

Transcript
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you want me to do the hard truth of that

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oh yes

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give me the hard truth i mean uh the

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hard truth is i

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i mean it's it's tough reality but i

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think if you're not a consultant you're

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gonna be a useless salesperson

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[Music]

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and we're live isaiah how you doing sir

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good

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good thanks for having me on i think we

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talked way back and you're doing it in

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person stuff so i'm glad that uh

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there's some benefit to this whole kova

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disaster you know yeah man

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i was really i set up a whole deal i got

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two of these mics

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and i was like i'm gonna do an in-person

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podcast i'm in austin

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but i'm not in austin austin i'm like a

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half hour north

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and uh it's just it's hard to get people

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out here like if i was right in the city

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be easier

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i realized i gotta i gotta do it remote

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so

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uh yeah well especially now especially

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now yeah especially now yeah

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well i'm glad you can because we're out

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in boston so you know

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it's a little tough for me to fly out

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there yeah yeah i understand

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but you're a podcaster now yourself with

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uh

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the hard truth about b2b e-commerce

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yeah i actually kind of stole that name

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a little bit from uh there's a guy that

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has the hard truth about sales

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podcasts i've seen him on linkedin a

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little bit and i was like what's a good

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name for the podcast we started playing

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around with names and

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the i think the the reason he had that

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name is he's trying to give you like the

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hard truth it's not like this

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easy sales job you know and that's kind

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of what we're doing with bb ecommerce

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because i think a lot of people

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get a rude awakening when they get into

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b2b e-commerce

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for the first time like i like the name

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it's it's um

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it's sticky and it seems like i don't

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know too much about b2b commerce

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i want you to break it all down for me

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today but it seems like there's got to

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be a lot of stuff that is just hard to

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you know there's a lot of

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there's a lot of hard problems to solve

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you're dealing with companies that are

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bigger maybe a little older and so

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there's probably a lot of

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tricky things it's a lot more

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complicated like b to c

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it's funny because our last guess he's

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like he was only doing b2b

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and then he started doing some b to c

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and he's like oh this is so easy

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like when you do b to b and then you go

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to bc you're like that's

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it it's just just sell the consumer add

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to cart check out and

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like make sure it gets shipped on time

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and that's it like it's

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it but with b2b it's so much more

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complex because you have like all the

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operational

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legacy operations of the business so

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like you said most of these companies

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have been around for a long time

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they're used to sales people doing the

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selling

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so a lot of the orders were taken over

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the phone they might have some edi so

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they might have all these different ways

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of taking orders

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most of which are not selling on the

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website so then transitioning that all

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to the website is not simple and

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there's so many different things like

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pricing isn't standardized usually it's

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not just one price

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they might not just pay with a credit

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card they might pay with a purchase

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order

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and then all their data is in an erp

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system that is not usually very friendly

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for e-commerce and getting that kind of

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working with e-commerce is a lot more

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complicated with b2b because they they

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have a lot more going on right there's

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just there's

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it's like i could spend we could spend

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the whole episode talking about that so

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that's awesome

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yeah no it's really cool it's so funny

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because i was watching the office

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we were watching uh the whole we watched

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the whole thing through

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and there's this episode where there's a

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new website

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rollout and it's all i mean this was i

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don't know 10 15 years ago

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and it's all of this stuff it's like a

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b2b thing it's the sales people it's

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like all this

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paper like they buy paper online yeah

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and it's all the dynamics of the sales

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people

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dealing with the website and all the

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conflicts and stuff and i was like dude

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this is like

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you know this is all currently like a

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comedy for my uh for my

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podcast it was perfect yeah it was

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perfect um

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but what are um yeah there's so many

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tangents to go off of there

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one of the ones that um i noticed you

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you tweeted recently about

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sales people that aren't consultants

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you said are gonna sort of not be as

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useful

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and i was curious to dig into that a

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little bit you know i wasn't sure if

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that was in the agency context or

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in the b2b sales contact economic sales

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context or both do you want me to do the

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hard truth of that

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oh yes i mean uh

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the hard truth is i i mean it's it's

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tough reality but i think if you're not

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a consultant you're going to be a

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useless salesperson yeah and the reason

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for that is because

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almost everything else can be sort of

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digitized right like

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you're either marketing like a lot of

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sales is really marketing right so

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i think that's going to get more into

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marketing lead gen generating inbound

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leads seo

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you know facebook advertising whatever

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it is bringing in the demand right

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is going to be more and more that way um

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or even this i don't know if you've

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heard of outreach.io

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but you can like kind of like it's a

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little spammy but you can kind of like

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target around that but it's it's kind of

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like

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somewhat automated way of of hitting

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lots of different people and you're

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getting a little creative with messaging

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i would almost lump that all under

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marketing right

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because really you're just trying to

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like market to people and get them to

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set up a meeting with you is really

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what you're trying to do yeah so i think

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that all sales is kind of gonna

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that part is gonna all really fall under

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marketing and then when they actually

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wanna talk to someone to sell they're

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either gonna wanna just buy

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online through e-commerce or sas like

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more and more sas like a free trial

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you know you might not talk to a sales

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rep until they're an account manager

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and at that point if you're a good

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account manager you're really a

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consultant right

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like you should be like hey well you're

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using this but you could be using this

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and same thing if it's new sales like

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you know if i want to talk to someone i

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expect them to be able to

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bring me something that's more

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knowledgeable than what i have myself or

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that i could just read on a website

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so that's where sales is going and you

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know

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you either got to adapt to that or i

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don't know if not not being a good place

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i guess in 10 years

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yeah that's true um that is definitely a

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hard truth

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what do you so let's say you're working

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with a distributor manufacturer

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wholesale or something like that

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and um they're trying to work through

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this right they're thinking well i've

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got up my i've got my sales team i don't

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want to impact them negatively

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how do they train how do they work

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through that transition process what

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what advice do you give them

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yeah you your sales people should be

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more valuable with e-commerce so that

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the biggest misconception is like oh one

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of my sales people do now we have

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e-commerce they're

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if all they're doing is taking orders

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then they're not good sales people

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they're literally just customer service

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people that take orders right right so

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basically that the first thing you

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should do is talk to sales about

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what they're like i if first you have to

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figure out what your problem is

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are you trying to improve customer

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service so they can take more orders or

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are you trying to get more new sales and

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and i think you have to kind of like

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prioritize those issues

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um but let's say you you've done a

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little bit of both and you've got the

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new site up and running then you need

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your sales people

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to start to use the site as a tool right

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so i mean a good example of this

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is b2c companies that are moving into

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b2b

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so amazon's doing this apple is doing

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this

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wayfair is doing this i we bought stuff

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on wayfair we signed

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up for a trellis account immediately i

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was called by someone like after we

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bought like

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two things and they're like already

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trying to sell me right and that's what

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the role the sales people can be

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is the website is a tool to find and buy

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things

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but once you've bought something that

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doesn't mean a sales person can't call

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them up and say hey

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i saw you bought this chair but do you

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know that we have these

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10 other you know better chairs or

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whatever it may be or i can get you a

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better deal

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or maybe even just teach them how to use

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the website better because a b2b website

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is

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actually a more complicated experience

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like you might have to set up special

0:07:49.120,0:07:51.280
pricing it's like hey you're not getting

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our

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you know b2b pricing so let me set that

0:07:53.199,0:07:55.840
up for you apple does that where like

0:07:54.560,0:07:57.039
you actually have to like manually work

0:07:55.840,0:07:59.479
with them to set that up

0:07:57.039,0:08:01.280
maybe like a discount on like we buy on

0:07:59.479,0:08:04.800
ecommerce.apple.com i believe it's

0:08:01.280,0:08:05.120
right apple.com oh okay so so basically

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like

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the way i would structure a sales team

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as a b2b company that sells

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a product like a manufacturer

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distributor is i would have

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two divisions in the sales team one is

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new business

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and one is account management so new

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business

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your entire job is go find the trellises

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or whatever your target market is let's

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say it's agencies right like or

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you know people like me and you and you

0:08:27.840,0:08:30.000
call them up and you're like hey we can

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get you the best

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desks in the world we have the best like

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standing desks

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and that's all we sell i don't know i'm

0:08:35.519,0:08:38.320
just like making up

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[Laughter]

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something that has is sort of relevant

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and your job is just get them signed up

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on the website and get them as a new

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customer and if they buy one thing like

0:08:46.000,0:08:49.519
you're successful and then you get

0:08:47.279,0:08:51.600
commission based on

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maybe the first 15 months of what

0:08:51.600,0:08:54.000
they've bought and you're just

0:08:52.560,0:08:54.880
constantly trying to get new people to

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buy

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then you have another division that is

0:08:57.120,0:09:00.800
account management and their job

0:08:59.040,0:09:03.200
is once they've already bought something

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how do i grow this customer into

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you know from buying one chair to 100

0:09:05.440,0:09:07.600
shares or a thousand shares or whatever

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you sell right

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right and so you kind of split it up

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like that and then obviously you can

0:09:10.560,0:09:12.880
have crossover like you don't it's not

0:09:12.080,0:09:14.959
like

0:09:12.880,0:09:16.160
everyone that does new business can't do

0:09:14.959,0:09:18.080
account management and everyone that

0:09:16.160,0:09:20.240
does account management can't do it like

0:09:18.080,0:09:21.920
you can have some crossover but really

0:09:20.240,0:09:22.800
there's kind of like two functions of

0:09:21.920,0:09:24.880
sales

0:09:22.800,0:09:26.800
getting them to trust your brand and buy

0:09:24.880,0:09:28.160
from you and and sign up and maybe the

0:09:26.800,0:09:29.440
website is part of that

0:09:28.160,0:09:30.640
because you have to sign up with a b2b

0:09:29.440,0:09:32.240
account which might be somewhat of a

0:09:30.640,0:09:33.839
manual process like you might go through

0:09:32.240,0:09:35.680
like a credit check

0:09:33.839,0:09:37.760
like sometimes you can't just like sign

0:09:35.680,0:09:39.440
up instantly as a b2b customer you have

0:09:37.760,0:09:41.120
to like go through a process that might

0:09:39.440,0:09:43.040
be handheld by the sales person

0:09:41.120,0:09:44.560
right so there's that process and then

0:09:43.040,0:09:46.399
there's like well what happens after

0:09:44.560,0:09:47.680
they bought one thing or a couple things

0:09:46.399,0:09:48.240
right like you you want them to keep

0:09:47.680,0:09:49.440
buying

0:09:48.240,0:09:50.959
does that make sense that's kind of like

0:09:49.440,0:09:52.720
the simplest way and there's obviously a

0:09:50.959,0:09:54.080
lot more that you could do but

0:09:52.720,0:09:55.920
i think it's a very simple way to think

0:09:54.080,0:09:59.120
about sales and how to scale it

0:09:55.920,0:10:01.600
right and so then like how does that

0:09:59.120,0:10:02.160
when you have that existing sales team

0:10:01.600,0:10:04.480
how does

0:10:02.160,0:10:06.800
how does that uh split between the two

0:10:04.480,0:10:09.360
roles in particular help them

0:10:06.800,0:10:10.959
to transition is it that there tends to

0:10:09.360,0:10:12.399
be those two different types of people

0:10:10.959,0:10:13.360
and you put them where they kind of fit

0:10:12.399,0:10:15.839
best

0:10:13.360,0:10:17.120
or how does that help when you've got

0:10:15.839,0:10:18.000
sales people that are like

0:10:17.120,0:10:19.360
oh what's going to happen to my

0:10:18.000,0:10:21.440
commissions am i going to make less

0:10:19.360,0:10:23.040
money what's my commission structure

0:10:21.440,0:10:25.279
you definitely don't want to kill the

0:10:23.040,0:10:26.320
commissions because then sales people

0:10:25.279,0:10:27.680
aren't going to want to work for you and

0:10:26.320,0:10:29.040
you don't want to lose your sales people

0:10:27.680,0:10:30.959
like i think there's still a valuable

0:10:29.040,0:10:32.800
role for salespeople in b2b

0:10:30.959,0:10:34.399
and ideally the ecommerce site helps you

0:10:32.800,0:10:35.920
get more value out of them like maybe

0:10:34.399,0:10:37.360
before they could do 1 million now they

0:10:35.920,0:10:38.000
could do 2 million or something right

0:10:37.360,0:10:39.120
whatever

0:10:38.000,0:10:40.320
because they don't have to like take

0:10:39.120,0:10:41.680
orders on the phone right they don't

0:10:40.320,0:10:43.680
have to waste all that time

0:10:41.680,0:10:45.279
yeah you know placing orders when they

0:10:43.680,0:10:46.399
can just have the customer do that for

0:10:45.279,0:10:48.480
them basically

0:10:46.399,0:10:50.560
um so that that's one thing i would i

0:10:48.480,0:10:51.920
would say that um

0:10:50.560,0:10:53.839
the way that and you could think about

0:10:51.920,0:10:54.880
this in any business not manufacturing

0:10:53.839,0:10:56.560
distributor and you

0:10:54.880,0:10:59.120
think about all sas companies are the

0:10:56.560,0:11:00.880
perfect example sas companies never have

0:10:59.120,0:11:02.880
the same person do new business

0:11:00.880,0:11:04.320
that they have account managers and then

0:11:02.880,0:11:05.600
like they have like they break up their

0:11:04.320,0:11:07.760
sales teams into different

0:11:05.600,0:11:09.120
departments right they have like the new

0:11:07.760,0:11:10.240
business guy who's

0:11:09.120,0:11:11.839
hyping you up and like getting you

0:11:10.240,0:11:13.279
excited about the product but usually he

0:11:11.839,0:11:14.800
doesn't know that much about the product

0:11:13.279,0:11:16.079
he's not very technical

0:11:14.800,0:11:17.519
and then once you're actually using the

0:11:16.079,0:11:18.800
product they get you to someone that's

0:11:17.519,0:11:20.640
like a little bit more like

0:11:18.800,0:11:22.000
technical that can like answer questions

0:11:20.640,0:11:23.120
about the product

0:11:22.000,0:11:25.120
do you know what i'm talking about like

0:11:23.120,0:11:26.240
when i mean you you built a sas product

0:11:25.120,0:11:27.980
so you kind of yeah

0:11:26.240,0:11:30.720
i was i was

0:11:27.980,0:11:32.399
[Laughter]

0:11:30.720,0:11:34.800
i was the new business guy the account

0:11:32.399,0:11:36.800
management guy the developer guy

0:11:34.800,0:11:38.320
all the guys but you see how you can

0:11:36.800,0:11:40.160
kind of split that up into those two

0:11:38.320,0:11:40.480
roles so sas business does this very

0:11:40.160,0:11:42.640
well

0:11:40.480,0:11:44.079
typically in a sas business you get the

0:11:42.640,0:11:45.760
new new business guy

0:11:44.079,0:11:47.120
he signs you up you get all excited and

0:11:45.760,0:11:48.560
then you're like well crap now we don't

0:11:47.120,0:11:50.399
know how to use the software like it

0:11:48.560,0:11:51.440
doesn't do he promised all these things

0:11:50.399,0:11:54.000
that it doesn't do

0:11:51.440,0:11:55.519
yeah and then they bring you over to the

0:11:54.000,0:11:58.320
account manager who's like

0:11:55.519,0:12:00.079
trying to fix all those problems magento

0:11:58.320,0:12:01.120
does this magento has a new business

0:12:00.079,0:12:02.480
people and they

0:12:01.120,0:12:04.240
have that's not the same person who's

0:12:02.480,0:12:06.000
your account manager yeah yeah so it's

0:12:04.240,0:12:08.480
really no different

0:12:06.000,0:12:10.639
in just because you sell something

0:12:08.480,0:12:12.399
that's a physical good or a theoretical

0:12:10.639,0:12:14.560
software good that

0:12:12.399,0:12:16.720
is less tangible it's not a hard good

0:12:14.560,0:12:18.480
you know yeah when it comes to the tools

0:12:16.720,0:12:21.040
and the platforms magento

0:12:18.480,0:12:22.639
uh shopify handshake all these tools and

0:12:21.040,0:12:26.240
and platforms for that are

0:12:22.639,0:12:27.839
doing b2b um what are some of the tools

0:12:26.240,0:12:30.639
that you're interested in

0:12:27.839,0:12:31.200
that are doing you know neat things that

0:12:30.639,0:12:32.959
um

0:12:31.200,0:12:34.560
when it when it comes to you know

0:12:32.959,0:12:36.560
helping sales reps to cross

0:12:34.560,0:12:38.240
sell or different things like that

0:12:36.560,0:12:40.880
anything in particular that

0:12:38.240,0:12:42.000
you're kind of excited about yeah that's

0:12:40.880,0:12:44.240
a really good question

0:12:42.000,0:12:46.639
i mean i'm definitely excited about this

0:12:44.240,0:12:47.839
uh somewhat slow transition to headless

0:12:46.639,0:12:49.200
i think headless has a lot of

0:12:47.839,0:12:53.200
opportunity

0:12:49.200,0:12:54.639
because in theory um in an ideal world

0:12:53.200,0:12:56.320
if i was a b2b company and i had the

0:12:54.639,0:12:57.839
money to do it obviously you know money

0:12:56.320,0:12:58.880
is always an issue but i would build a

0:12:57.839,0:13:00.720
headless site

0:12:58.880,0:13:03.120
and then i would just tie in the

0:13:00.720,0:13:04.639
specific applications for specific

0:13:03.120,0:13:06.480
purposes right like

0:13:04.639,0:13:08.160
okay you know the customer service

0:13:06.480,0:13:10.800
aspect of my website

0:13:08.160,0:13:11.519
uses like zendesk and certain data uses

0:13:10.800,0:13:13.200
the erp

0:13:11.519,0:13:15.120
maybe some things use magento or

0:13:13.200,0:13:16.399
whatever else for the different pieces

0:13:15.120,0:13:19.040
so you could basically have this like

0:13:16.399,0:13:20.959
unified front-end experience

0:13:19.040,0:13:23.040
and then you just kind of like bring in

0:13:20.959,0:13:23.360
the difference back end applications

0:13:23.040,0:13:24.639
because

0:13:23.360,0:13:25.760
the big problem that we see in b2b is

0:13:24.639,0:13:26.880
that they have a lot of different

0:13:25.760,0:13:28.959
systems right

0:13:26.880,0:13:30.399
you have your erp which is usually not

0:13:28.959,0:13:31.839
very good for e-commerce

0:13:30.399,0:13:33.680
then you have this new e-commerce system

0:13:31.839,0:13:34.880
then maybe you have a pim

0:13:33.680,0:13:36.399
a lot of these companies are starting to

0:13:34.880,0:13:37.760
buy pimps now you have three major

0:13:36.399,0:13:39.040
systems then they might have a separate

0:13:37.760,0:13:41.279
crm system

0:13:39.040,0:13:42.800
yeah they already talk of core systems

0:13:41.279,0:13:43.600
and then potentially they might have

0:13:42.800,0:13:44.880
another you know

0:13:43.600,0:13:47.279
you could easily see how they could have

0:13:44.880,0:13:48.800
five to ten systems five to ten major

0:13:47.279,0:13:50.560
systems right how do you build one

0:13:48.800,0:13:52.160
unified experience for that

0:13:50.560,0:13:53.600
i mean headless is basically the

0:13:52.160,0:13:54.560
solution to that it's just still kind of

0:13:53.600,0:13:56.240
in its embassy

0:13:54.560,0:13:57.600
yeah in a lot of ways yeah you know so

0:13:56.240,0:13:59.279
that's one thing i'm excited about and

0:13:57.600,0:14:00.639
then there's lots of like tools and

0:13:59.279,0:14:02.639
products out there that i think are

0:14:00.639,0:14:06.240
doing well yeah what are

0:14:02.639,0:14:08.560
um are you starting to do some of those

0:14:06.240,0:14:09.760
uh headless builds yourself at trellis

0:14:08.560,0:14:11.600
with uh b2b

0:14:09.760,0:14:13.040
we're definitely starting to not as i

0:14:11.600,0:14:14.480
would say not um quite

0:14:13.040,0:14:15.760
i've been pushing our team to try and do

0:14:14.480,0:14:16.720
more of it it's like the chicken or the

0:14:15.760,0:14:17.920
egg right like

0:14:16.720,0:14:19.519
you kind of have to tell people that

0:14:17.920,0:14:20.959
you're doing it too one guy's like what

0:14:19.519,0:14:22.959
if we just didn't tell people and all we

0:14:20.959,0:14:24.560
did was headless sites i was like well

0:14:22.959,0:14:26.079
you know like if they ever try to like

0:14:24.560,0:14:26.800
leave us they probably need to know that

0:14:26.079,0:14:28.399
their

0:14:26.800,0:14:31.839
is headless we can't just like build it

0:14:28.399,0:14:31.839
headless and not tell them

0:14:32.959,0:14:36.480
so you know we shot that down we agree

0:14:35.199,0:14:37.839
that we have to tell the client that

0:14:36.480,0:14:39.360
it's headless and kind of explain to

0:14:37.839,0:14:40.399
them why they're doing it so you have to

0:14:39.360,0:14:42.480
sell them on it

0:14:40.399,0:14:44.320
and that's a little bit difficult it's

0:14:42.480,0:14:44.720
still not quite at a point where i think

0:14:44.320,0:14:46.800
we're

0:14:44.720,0:14:48.560
confident in doing it cheaper so

0:14:46.800,0:14:50.639
generally it's a little more expensive

0:14:48.560,0:14:51.600
up front so that's a little bit of a

0:14:50.639,0:14:53.279
barrier and

0:14:51.600,0:14:54.800
it's hard for a lot of companies to

0:14:53.279,0:14:58.079
understand the value of

0:14:54.800,0:14:59.360
paying more upfront for that um we do

0:14:58.079,0:15:00.480
believe that it will save you money in

0:14:59.360,0:15:02.160
the long run because you won't have to

0:15:00.480,0:15:03.440
like re-platform as much and you'll be

0:15:02.160,0:15:04.320
able to keep the infrastructure for a

0:15:03.440,0:15:06.079
lot longer

0:15:04.320,0:15:07.199
so long-term should save you money but i

0:15:06.079,0:15:09.600
think a lot of companies struggle with

0:15:07.199,0:15:12.639
the idea of like spending more up front

0:15:09.600,0:15:13.440
um so we are doing some but it's it's

0:15:12.639,0:15:15.600
that

0:15:13.440,0:15:17.920
maybe 10 of companies that are willing

0:15:15.600,0:15:19.519
to kind of invest in the premium

0:15:17.920,0:15:20.959
that understand the value of it and are

0:15:19.519,0:15:22.800
willing to invest more into it

0:15:20.959,0:15:24.320
right so for us it's still a smaller

0:15:22.800,0:15:24.880
percentage of of the deals that we're

0:15:24.320,0:15:26.720
working on

0:15:24.880,0:15:28.720
right what would you say like rough

0:15:26.720,0:15:29.839
ballpark is the premium that they're

0:15:28.720,0:15:32.079
looking at is it a

0:15:29.839,0:15:33.600
is it hey we're going to spend twice as

0:15:32.079,0:15:34.240
much up front on this that's a great

0:15:33.600,0:15:36.480
question

0:15:34.240,0:15:38.000
we're trying to get that down we believe

0:15:36.480,0:15:39.519
that we we're working on a lot of

0:15:38.000,0:15:40.160
internal things and tooling and then

0:15:39.519,0:15:41.680
also take

0:15:40.160,0:15:43.440
like evaluating what's out there there's

0:15:41.680,0:15:45.199
new stuff every day that's

0:15:43.440,0:15:46.880
evolving to make it cheaper i mean even

0:15:45.199,0:15:47.839
obviously magenta is working on pwa

0:15:46.880,0:15:49.279
studio

0:15:47.839,0:15:51.040
pretty much what i've realized is all

0:15:49.279,0:15:51.680
the platform magento shopify big

0:15:51.040,0:15:53.279
commerce

0:15:51.680,0:15:55.519
in some ways are like the big three that

0:15:53.279,0:15:57.519
i think about they are all working on

0:15:55.519,0:15:59.040
graphql like super aggressively because

0:15:57.519,0:16:00.560
they know like everyone's going to want

0:15:59.040,0:16:01.920
to integrate with these things the best

0:16:00.560,0:16:03.600
possible so they're all trying to make

0:16:01.920,0:16:05.759
everything graphql across

0:16:03.600,0:16:06.880
every single piece of functionality and

0:16:05.759,0:16:09.360
i think that will all be

0:16:06.880,0:16:10.880
pretty much available next year across

0:16:09.360,0:16:11.680
all the platforms like maybe the end of

0:16:10.880,0:16:14.399
next year but

0:16:11.680,0:16:16.160
yeah um so i would say right now we're

0:16:14.399,0:16:16.720
kind of like looking at it as like a 50

0:16:16.160,0:16:19.920
percent

0:16:16.720,0:16:21.600
plus or minus lift so plus 50 percent

0:16:19.920,0:16:23.040
so let's say we set up that was 100

0:16:21.600,0:16:24.560
grand project we would say headless

0:16:23.040,0:16:26.320
might be 150.

0:16:24.560,0:16:28.240
that could potentially be 200 it could

0:16:26.320,0:16:29.839
be slightly less maybe it's only 120

0:16:28.240,0:16:30.560
instead of 100 it's definitely we feel

0:16:29.839,0:16:32.240
like it's more

0:16:30.560,0:16:34.000
right we're working on a lot of things

0:16:32.240,0:16:34.880
to make it our goal is to get it to be

0:16:34.000,0:16:36.480
one to one

0:16:34.880,0:16:38.079
and once we get it to one to one then

0:16:36.480,0:16:39.600
we're hoping that

0:16:38.079,0:16:40.880
they'll be you know that like i said

0:16:39.600,0:16:41.920
it's about ten percent that's just like

0:16:40.880,0:16:43.519
kind of like a

0:16:41.920,0:16:45.360
somewhat of a made-up number you know

0:16:43.519,0:16:47.040
it's a small percentage of clients right

0:16:45.360,0:16:48.480
now hopefully it'll be like 50

0:16:47.040,0:16:50.399
at some point once it becomes like less

0:16:48.480,0:16:51.680
of a cost barrier right and then

0:16:50.399,0:16:54.480
eventually we believe it'll

0:16:51.680,0:16:56.079
be 100 of our clients uh doing that at

0:16:54.480,0:16:58.800
some point it might be a while for that

0:16:56.079,0:17:01.839
yeah that's the goal the dream right one

0:16:58.800,0:17:01.839
good dream what's the dream

0:17:02.000,0:17:06.720
what are your favorite you know those

0:17:03.600,0:17:09.679
view storefront there's pwa studio

0:17:06.720,0:17:11.839
um there's a lot of these pwa uh

0:17:09.679,0:17:13.600
frameworks and and platforms yeah we're

0:17:11.839,0:17:14.480
still evaluating all of those to be

0:17:13.600,0:17:16.319
honest uh

0:17:14.480,0:17:17.600
basically like and you honestly a better

0:17:16.319,0:17:19.360
person to answer this question as our

0:17:17.600,0:17:23.360
director front-end engineering

0:17:19.360,0:17:23.360
i think he would say none is the answer

0:17:24.480,0:17:28.400
i think at this point we're not like

0:17:26.640,0:17:30.080
super happy with anything that's out

0:17:28.400,0:17:31.840
there so

0:17:30.080,0:17:33.280
frankly we are investing in some stuff

0:17:31.840,0:17:36.559
ourselves but we are

0:17:33.280,0:17:38.160
also you know using some stuff out there

0:17:36.559,0:17:39.520
just because you know there's some stuff

0:17:38.160,0:17:40.799
out there like you store from them in

0:17:39.520,0:17:43.200
general pwa studio

0:17:40.799,0:17:43.919
two those two in particular that are you

0:17:43.200,0:17:45.440
know have a

0:17:43.919,0:17:47.520
quite a decent backing like you know

0:17:45.440,0:17:48.960
magento's backpack magento and adobe so

0:17:47.520,0:17:50.480
that's a lot of money going to that

0:17:48.960,0:17:52.799
and a view storefront's been around for

0:17:50.480,0:17:54.480
a while has the open source community so

0:17:52.799,0:17:55.840
those two solutions we see fairly

0:17:54.480,0:17:59.360
competitive so we're not

0:17:55.840,0:18:01.760
uh necessarily um

0:17:59.360,0:18:03.679
uh trying to reinvent the wheel there

0:18:01.760,0:18:06.000
but we also

0:18:03.679,0:18:06.960
have had concerns about some of the

0:18:06.000,0:18:08.320
things that they're doing

0:18:06.960,0:18:09.840
um that i'm not going to get into in

0:18:08.320,0:18:10.480
like a super technical i just know

0:18:09.840,0:18:12.840
that's

0:18:10.480,0:18:13.840
the analysis that our team has done yeah

0:18:12.840,0:18:15.919
yeah um

0:18:13.840,0:18:16.960
and then in the shopify and bigcommerce

0:18:15.919,0:18:19.120
space it's

0:18:16.960,0:18:20.480
a lot simpler so that's something that

0:18:19.120,0:18:22.000
we're more investing in ourselves

0:18:20.480,0:18:23.520
because we want kind of like a simpler

0:18:22.000,0:18:25.760
faster to market solution especially

0:18:23.520,0:18:27.760
because people in that market expect

0:18:25.760,0:18:29.039
you know a lower cost option like

0:18:27.760,0:18:30.160
typically if you're going with shop fire

0:18:29.039,0:18:31.440
bitcomas you

0:18:30.160,0:18:32.880
aren't trying to spend like half a

0:18:31.440,0:18:33.440
million dollars or something like that

0:18:32.880,0:18:35.120
right

0:18:33.440,0:18:37.200
there's always there's always exceptions

0:18:35.120,0:18:38.400
but yeah you know if it's really

0:18:37.200,0:18:40.480
expensive it's kind of a

0:18:38.400,0:18:41.840
so we're we're investing in building

0:18:40.480,0:18:42.400
something simpler ourselves in that

0:18:41.840,0:18:45.200
market

0:18:42.400,0:18:47.360
yeah it's interesting with shopify um

0:18:45.200,0:18:49.360
you know they cause it handshake was the

0:18:47.360,0:18:51.280
b2b platform that they

0:18:49.360,0:18:52.720
it's still not very clear what's

0:18:51.280,0:18:55.200
happening there it's still

0:18:52.720,0:18:56.720
like it supposedly exists supposedly

0:18:55.200,0:18:58.559
they're gonna like re-release it into

0:18:56.720,0:19:00.720
something but as far as i know there's

0:18:58.559,0:19:01.440
nothing right now that you can use like

0:19:00.720,0:19:02.640
there's no

0:19:01.440,0:19:04.640
you can't i don't think you can use

0:19:02.640,0:19:07.760
handshake really b2b

0:19:04.640,0:19:09.520
shopify right now they have this kind of

0:19:07.760,0:19:11.520
like wholesale portal

0:19:09.520,0:19:13.520
but it's not handshake i don't think

0:19:11.520,0:19:14.880
handshake's been re-released yet um i

0:19:13.520,0:19:16.000
could be wrong it's hard for me to keep

0:19:14.880,0:19:17.760
on top of like every

0:19:16.000,0:19:19.360
like release of every platform out there

0:19:17.760,0:19:22.480
but i'm pretty sure it's

0:19:19.360,0:19:25.280
it's not a thing right now gotcha

0:19:22.480,0:19:26.080
um you mentioned that uh amazon is

0:19:25.280,0:19:29.200
getting

0:19:26.080,0:19:30.640
uh heavier into b2b right oh yeah i

0:19:29.200,0:19:31.919
think people don't realize how fast

0:19:30.640,0:19:33.760
that's happening they went from 1

0:19:31.919,0:19:35.840
billion b2b to 10 billion

0:19:33.760,0:19:38.400
in b2b in one year i think that was like

0:19:35.840,0:19:38.720
2 000. yeah they 10x their b2b in one

0:19:38.400,0:19:41.120
year

0:19:38.720,0:19:42.320
that was like 2018 or something and

0:19:41.120,0:19:44.640
they're projected it might have been

0:19:42.320,0:19:47.840
2000 they're projecting to do like

0:19:44.640,0:19:49.840
50 or 60 billion b2b fairly soon like

0:19:47.840,0:19:52.000
they're on track to become the largest

0:19:49.840,0:19:54.799
b2b ecommerce site in the united

0:19:52.000,0:19:55.600
states like very soon it might even be

0:19:54.799,0:19:58.080
now

0:19:55.600,0:19:59.120
that's why it just happened yeah yeah it

0:19:58.080,0:20:01.200
just happened already

0:19:59.120,0:20:02.720
they just hit the number yeah like i

0:20:01.200,0:20:04.400
think it's like maybe granger a couple

0:20:02.720,0:20:05.760
of these other big b2b companies right

0:20:04.400,0:20:06.559
now that are up there and i think

0:20:05.760,0:20:08.880
they're gonna

0:20:06.559,0:20:09.840
amazon will i'm i'm pretty certain they

0:20:08.880,0:20:11.679
will surpass them

0:20:09.840,0:20:13.200
you know in the next few years yeah

0:20:11.679,0:20:17.039
because it's just so like

0:20:13.200,0:20:18.080
chat chairs desks you know electronics

0:20:17.039,0:20:19.760
i mean all you have to do is just

0:20:18.080,0:20:20.400
convert your account to you could do it

0:20:19.760,0:20:23.520
right now

0:20:20.400,0:20:25.600
probably as a commerce hero business

0:20:23.520,0:20:28.400
account and then use the same login

0:20:25.600,0:20:29.840
and now you're a business user gotcha

0:20:28.400,0:20:32.240
and then do they just uh

0:20:29.840,0:20:34.159
have like more higher touch a higher

0:20:32.240,0:20:36.159
touch process they have a

0:20:34.159,0:20:37.440
not really uh to be honest i think they

0:20:36.159,0:20:38.960
do if you're really big i don't think

0:20:37.440,0:20:40.240
we're big enough so i haven't gotten

0:20:38.960,0:20:41.280
that like i don't have someone like

0:20:40.240,0:20:42.799
calling me all the time

0:20:41.280,0:20:44.480
[Laughter]

0:20:42.799,0:20:46.240
it's possible i don't know i don't i i'm

0:20:44.480,0:20:47.840
like i don't pick up a lot of those like

0:20:46.240,0:20:49.280
unknown numbers so who knows that maybe

0:20:47.840,0:20:50.159
they have been trying to call us and we

0:20:49.280,0:20:53.039
don't know

0:20:50.159,0:20:54.480
um but uh i think that they i'm sure

0:20:53.039,0:20:56.480
they have some more sales rep

0:20:54.480,0:20:58.000
aspect to it um but i think it's you

0:20:56.480,0:21:00.000
know they have like better pricing it'll

0:20:58.000,0:21:01.919
even say like business pricing

0:21:00.000,0:21:03.280
um i haven't noticed like a huge

0:21:01.919,0:21:04.799
discount but it's kind of cool it'll

0:21:03.280,0:21:06.400
show you like more like business

0:21:04.799,0:21:07.520
analytics it's almost got like analytics

0:21:06.400,0:21:08.320
in it like hey this is how much you

0:21:07.520,0:21:09.760
spent

0:21:08.320,0:21:11.440
for like reporting so if you're like a

0:21:09.760,0:21:13.039
procurement person like hey i spent this

0:21:11.440,0:21:14.960
much with amazon

0:21:13.039,0:21:17.679
and then they have like these po

0:21:14.960,0:21:20.400
capabilities so you can apply for like

0:21:17.679,0:21:22.080
60 days uh like basically you don't have

0:21:20.400,0:21:23.760
to pay for 60 days

0:21:22.080,0:21:26.240
uh po so they have like all these

0:21:23.760,0:21:27.440
different like business capabilities

0:21:26.240,0:21:29.440
i don't think we're using everything i

0:21:27.440,0:21:32.159
mean we don't buy that much so it's like

0:21:29.440,0:21:33.520
right not the that a huge saver for us

0:21:32.159,0:21:34.960
to do that kind of stuff but if we

0:21:33.520,0:21:37.039
wanted to get more aggressive

0:21:34.960,0:21:38.400
right you know right with cobed we don't

0:21:37.039,0:21:38.960
buy like that much office supplies right

0:21:38.400,0:21:41.120
now yeah

0:21:38.960,0:21:42.960
yeah yeah yeah yeah did you because you

0:21:41.120,0:21:45.840
had gotten a new office

0:21:42.960,0:21:46.240
rece uh i want to say like a year i mean

0:21:45.840,0:21:48.080
it's

0:21:46.240,0:21:50.159
yeah it's it's not as new anymore it's

0:21:48.080,0:21:52.480
2018 when we got it so

0:21:50.159,0:21:53.760
wait sorry was it 2018 or 2019 i can't

0:21:52.480,0:21:56.000
even remember i think it might have been

0:21:53.760,0:21:58.320
the beginning of 2019.

0:21:56.000,0:21:59.760
so we're going on two years i'm in there

0:21:58.320,0:22:01.600
now right now actually i don't i'm

0:21:59.760,0:22:03.520
pretty lazy i go in like once or twice a

0:22:01.600,0:22:04.400
week it's hard to get motivated to go in

0:22:03.520,0:22:06.799
when you're like

0:22:04.400,0:22:08.000
there's like three people there and like

0:22:06.799,0:22:11.600
i don't have to go in

0:22:08.000,0:22:12.799
and and now i'm pretty used to working

0:22:11.600,0:22:14.240
from home i only i

0:22:12.799,0:22:15.520
it's not a long commute for me but it

0:22:14.240,0:22:16.640
still adds up right like that's just

0:22:15.520,0:22:17.600
time out of your day that i don't

0:22:16.640,0:22:21.360
necessarily have to

0:22:17.600,0:22:23.280
spend driving yeah yeah what are um

0:22:21.360,0:22:24.799
what are some of the things that you

0:22:23.280,0:22:26.080
with the podcast you're talking a lot of

0:22:24.799,0:22:27.919
different people

0:22:26.080,0:22:30.559
what are some of the things that b2b

0:22:27.919,0:22:32.400
ecom companies are doing

0:22:30.559,0:22:34.080
that that are the most interesting to

0:22:32.400,0:22:36.960
you whether in terms of

0:22:34.080,0:22:39.440
integrations between different systems

0:22:36.960,0:22:40.960
front-end experience

0:22:39.440,0:22:42.720
yeah that's a great question one of the

0:22:40.960,0:22:44.320
most interesting companies i talk to and

0:22:42.720,0:22:46.480
it sucks because i had i was like on

0:22:44.320,0:22:48.000
vacation when i did it so i don't even i

0:22:46.480,0:22:49.440
think it like it was like really hard it

0:22:48.000,0:22:51.440
kept like breaking up in the middle of

0:22:49.440,0:22:52.880
the podcast so it's like

0:22:51.440,0:22:55.120
it was definitely one of the rockier

0:22:52.880,0:22:56.720
podcasts but it's it's like a really

0:22:55.120,0:22:58.159
funny story it's actually a guy who

0:22:56.720,0:23:00.559
applied to trellis

0:22:58.159,0:23:01.280
in like 2012 we had no idea what we were

0:23:00.559,0:23:03.280
doing

0:23:01.280,0:23:05.039
he was in boston we stayed in touch like

0:23:03.280,0:23:06.559
i think we ended up like not hiring him

0:23:05.039,0:23:08.240
for some reason but it was like you know

0:23:06.559,0:23:11.600
we stayed in touch and

0:23:08.240,0:23:13.039
he is uh i believe from panama

0:23:11.600,0:23:15.600
this is like super random and

0:23:13.039,0:23:17.520
interesting and he moved back to panama

0:23:15.600,0:23:18.640
as his family owns a b2b business in

0:23:17.520,0:23:21.360
panama

0:23:18.640,0:23:22.400
and they're like a decent sized business

0:23:21.360,0:23:25.280
for panama

0:23:22.400,0:23:26.559
and so he came in and he was like just

0:23:25.280,0:23:28.320
aggressively trying to make them

0:23:26.559,0:23:29.120
e-commerce and just like that's what he

0:23:28.320,0:23:30.559
believed in

0:23:29.120,0:23:32.640
like you know he's like a younger guy

0:23:30.559,0:23:35.120
like me and

0:23:32.640,0:23:36.480
he built this custom he explored all the

0:23:35.120,0:23:38.240
options and he ended up going with a

0:23:36.480,0:23:39.919
custom headless website that he built

0:23:38.240,0:23:41.120
himself like he's an engineer right

0:23:39.919,0:23:42.559
right and i think he might have some

0:23:41.120,0:23:44.080
help like maybe he has a couple people

0:23:42.559,0:23:46.640
that work under him so he built

0:23:44.080,0:23:48.400
a fully custom headless site and i think

0:23:46.640,0:23:49.520
it ties into their erp and other systems

0:23:48.400,0:23:51.120
just like i described

0:23:49.520,0:23:52.799
you have a headless site that ties into

0:23:51.120,0:23:55.600
different systems that they use

0:23:52.799,0:23:56.240
and he said after covid he moved they

0:23:55.600,0:23:58.799
used to do

0:23:56.240,0:24:00.240
zero sales online now they do a hundred

0:23:58.799,0:24:02.720
percent of their sales online

0:24:00.240,0:24:04.159
wow not like 10 20 like most of these

0:24:02.720,0:24:05.279
companies are like we're at 20

0:24:04.159,0:24:07.360
and they're like super excited because

0:24:05.279,0:24:10.559
they're at 20 he's at 100

0:24:07.360,0:24:12.080
online so everyone buys online and they

0:24:10.559,0:24:13.600
ship it out or maybe they come and pick

0:24:12.080,0:24:14.080
it up in the in their warehouse or

0:24:13.600,0:24:18.080
whatever

0:24:14.080,0:24:21.039
what do they sell like everything yeah

0:24:18.080,0:24:22.320
it's like yeah i think they sell all

0:24:21.039,0:24:25.120
sorts it's just like one of those

0:24:22.320,0:24:27.600
general wholesalers that's just like

0:24:25.120,0:24:28.880
uh i i honestly don't remember their

0:24:27.600,0:24:30.240
niche specifically but i think it was

0:24:28.880,0:24:31.039
pretty broad like they definitely have a

0:24:30.240,0:24:32.799
pretty large

0:24:31.039,0:24:34.400
selection of different goods i think

0:24:32.799,0:24:35.520
it's they sell to a lot of retailers so

0:24:34.400,0:24:37.440
it might be

0:24:35.520,0:24:38.559
like you know home good type stuff they

0:24:37.440,0:24:39.120
have stuff like that but i think it's a

0:24:38.559,0:24:42.000
pretty

0:24:39.120,0:24:42.880
pretty broad selection right um so i was

0:24:42.000,0:24:44.320
like really impressed

0:24:42.880,0:24:46.000
he was like getting into like how do we

0:24:44.320,0:24:48.080
automate pricing with an algorithm

0:24:46.000,0:24:49.279
so if you buy more we give you a better

0:24:48.080,0:24:50.320
price but it's all automated because

0:24:49.279,0:24:51.600
that's the problem with b2b they all

0:24:50.320,0:24:53.360
have like these manual pricing

0:24:51.600,0:24:55.200
mechanisms which isn't very scalable

0:24:53.360,0:24:57.200
right he's getting into the automation

0:24:55.200,0:24:59.679
of shipping and like how do we like

0:24:57.200,0:25:01.440
get smarter with shipping costs and he

0:24:59.679,0:25:03.520
was like building like algorithms in the

0:25:01.440,0:25:06.000
back end to like power

0:25:03.520,0:25:07.200
the challenges that people were do most

0:25:06.000,0:25:08.640
people do manually

0:25:07.200,0:25:10.080
nice which i thought was like really

0:25:08.640,0:25:11.520
interesting we were like who's the most

0:25:10.080,0:25:12.640
innovative company you talk to it's like

0:25:11.520,0:25:16.720
this guy in panama

0:25:12.640,0:25:19.840
not in the united states going for it

0:25:16.720,0:25:21.200
that's cool what are um yeah that's

0:25:19.840,0:25:22.000
really that's interesting what are some

0:25:21.200,0:25:25.120
of the like

0:25:22.000,0:25:28.000
challenges for you as an agency

0:25:25.120,0:25:29.840
in starting to work with these companies

0:25:28.000,0:25:30.880
that are more b2b focused as opposed to

0:25:29.840,0:25:33.360
b2c

0:25:30.880,0:25:34.320
is it a different type of company is it

0:25:33.360,0:25:36.320
a different workflow

0:25:34.320,0:25:38.080
very challenging it's very challenging

0:25:36.320,0:25:39.120
it's so challenging to the point where

0:25:38.080,0:25:40.320
like with b2c

0:25:39.120,0:25:42.240
most of our work to be honest with

0:25:40.320,0:25:44.159
shopify you know it could sometimes it's

0:25:42.240,0:25:45.760
magento or big commerce but typically

0:25:44.159,0:25:48.159
they're going to go with shopify

0:25:45.760,0:25:49.440
like i literally don't worry about like

0:25:48.159,0:25:51.120
in terms of like

0:25:49.440,0:25:52.320
my job is to like make sure we get paid

0:25:51.120,0:25:54.000
and like make money at the end of the

0:25:52.320,0:25:55.840
day right like

0:25:54.000,0:25:57.120
that's like the basic job of the owner

0:25:55.840,0:25:57.919
of an agency right like if you think

0:25:57.120,0:26:00.559
about it

0:25:57.919,0:26:01.039
and and b2b has so much risk for us

0:26:00.559,0:26:03.440
because

0:26:01.039,0:26:05.039
it's so hard to estimate the projects

0:26:03.440,0:26:07.120
and execute them well

0:26:05.039,0:26:08.640
and make sure that you don't blow up the

0:26:07.120,0:26:09.600
budget and the customer pays you and

0:26:08.640,0:26:11.520
it's profitable

0:26:09.600,0:26:13.760
like the difference in magnitude is like

0:26:11.520,0:26:15.760
10x compared to b2c

0:26:13.760,0:26:17.200
so we are getting to the point where

0:26:15.760,0:26:18.960
like i'm trying to become more and more

0:26:17.200,0:26:20.720
selective like hey this guy's like

0:26:18.960,0:26:22.480
too risky like we're not gonna work with

0:26:20.720,0:26:24.480
this company because

0:26:22.480,0:26:26.480
they have maybe their product data is a

0:26:24.480,0:26:28.000
mass there's so many things that they

0:26:26.480,0:26:29.120
have to do that aren't necessarily just

0:26:28.000,0:26:31.039
technical problems

0:26:29.120,0:26:32.559
like a good example and i'm not gonna

0:26:31.039,0:26:34.320
use their name right i'm gonna

0:26:32.559,0:26:36.640
they'll take names out of this we had a

0:26:34.320,0:26:38.799
company that ended up firing us

0:26:36.640,0:26:39.919
and they were a fairly large distributor

0:26:38.799,0:26:41.600
that's all i'm gonna say they're a

0:26:39.919,0:26:44.799
fairly large distributor

0:26:41.600,0:26:46.159
um they had like 40 000 products and we

0:26:44.799,0:26:46.720
had essentially built them they had two

0:26:46.159,0:26:48.559
sites

0:26:46.720,0:26:50.640
uh multi you know they wanted multi-site

0:26:48.559,0:26:52.000
so they ended up going with magento

0:26:50.640,0:26:54.720
and they decided to go with multi-site

0:26:52.000,0:26:56.320
right we we underestimated some things

0:26:54.720,0:26:58.000
in the estimation process but that's

0:26:56.320,0:26:59.520
part of the problem it's so hard to know

0:26:58.000,0:27:01.840
how hard is this guy going to be to work

0:26:59.520,0:27:03.200
with right like or how hard are some of

0:27:01.840,0:27:04.400
these things going to be

0:27:03.200,0:27:06.960
so there are some things that we

0:27:04.400,0:27:10.559
underestimated anyways long story short

0:27:06.960,0:27:12.559
um we essentially you know

0:27:10.559,0:27:14.000
got the site fairly up and running both

0:27:12.559,0:27:14.799
sites they were designed you could like

0:27:14.000,0:27:16.799
click around

0:27:14.799,0:27:18.399
it was pretty much all there but he just

0:27:16.799,0:27:20.159
couldn't get his product data into a

0:27:18.399,0:27:22.240
good place like he

0:27:20.159,0:27:23.440
told us in the very beginning they were

0:27:22.240,0:27:24.720
going to do the product data

0:27:23.440,0:27:26.240
then like in the middle of the project

0:27:24.720,0:27:27.200
they're like well actually you know

0:27:26.240,0:27:28.240
there was a third party that was going

0:27:27.200,0:27:29.840
to help them with this

0:27:28.240,0:27:32.000
that didn't work out then they like we

0:27:29.840,0:27:32.559
had to get involved and it ended up just

0:27:32.000,0:27:34.960
being like

0:27:32.559,0:27:37.520
so much more complicated and he was like

0:27:34.960,0:27:39.919
having a really hard time understanding

0:27:37.520,0:27:41.520
our like what we were like because we

0:27:39.919,0:27:42.960
were we were we the budget had been

0:27:41.520,0:27:45.039
blown up for so many different reasons

0:27:42.960,0:27:46.399
mainly one of them was product data so

0:27:45.039,0:27:48.240
we're like look we can't there's no

0:27:46.399,0:27:48.880
budget for us to do this for you for you

0:27:48.240,0:27:51.120
so like

0:27:48.880,0:27:52.320
here's the instructions to like upload

0:27:51.120,0:27:53.840
the data like we gave him like very

0:27:52.320,0:27:55.919
detailed instructions

0:27:53.840,0:27:57.440
and he just like couldn't do it so they

0:27:55.919,0:27:59.520
were like all this back and forth

0:27:57.440,0:28:01.200
and then we got to the point where like

0:27:59.520,0:28:02.080
it's literally faster for us to do it

0:28:01.200,0:28:03.440
but we were just going to have to eat

0:28:02.080,0:28:04.080
that cost because he didn't want to pay

0:28:03.440,0:28:05.600
more

0:28:04.080,0:28:07.919
and that's the challenge too like people

0:28:05.600,0:28:08.240
in b2b are very they have a hard they're

0:28:07.919,0:28:09.600
like

0:28:08.240,0:28:11.520
they have that old school mindset where

0:28:09.600,0:28:13.279
it's like it's a set in stone budget and

0:28:11.520,0:28:14.720
it's like it can't change like

0:28:13.279,0:28:16.399
you said it was going to be this price

0:28:14.720,0:28:18.000
and it like can't change and like as you

0:28:16.399,0:28:18.240
know in software it's like very hard to

0:28:18.000,0:28:21.360
be

0:28:18.240,0:28:23.760
right set and phone with budgets so um

0:28:21.360,0:28:25.440
long story short he fired us um and

0:28:23.760,0:28:26.159
basically the site was like working like

0:28:25.440,0:28:27.520
it was like

0:28:26.159,0:28:28.880
you just need to get the product data

0:28:27.520,0:28:30.159
and they had a third party integration

0:28:28.880,0:28:31.520
company that was doing the integration

0:28:30.159,0:28:32.159
that we were consulting on but it was

0:28:31.520,0:28:33.279
really

0:28:32.159,0:28:34.720
you know how these like third-party

0:28:33.279,0:28:35.679
integration companies do the erp

0:28:34.720,0:28:37.600
integrations

0:28:35.679,0:28:39.039
so there was like not much work left for

0:28:37.600,0:28:41.200
us to do in theory

0:28:39.039,0:28:42.799
they i always love to like stay in touch

0:28:41.200,0:28:44.480
to see what happens like

0:28:42.799,0:28:46.320
maybe we suck right like maybe someone

0:28:44.480,0:28:47.840
else is way better than us and

0:28:46.320,0:28:50.480
they just like got the site up and

0:28:47.840,0:28:52.960
running in a week and like we suck right

0:28:50.480,0:28:54.240
nine months later like he hasn't

0:28:52.960,0:28:54.880
launched the site he hasn't lost the

0:28:54.240,0:28:58.559
site

0:28:54.880,0:29:00.240
nine months later he launches the site

0:28:58.559,0:29:01.919
and and it was supposed to be like a six

0:29:00.240,0:29:02.480
to nine month project from start to

0:29:01.919,0:29:04.159
finish

0:29:02.480,0:29:05.679
we probably spent six months or whatever

0:29:04.159,0:29:07.919
it was to get him to that point another

0:29:05.679,0:29:09.679
nine months for him to take what we did

0:29:07.919,0:29:11.360
basically finish uploading the product

0:29:09.679,0:29:12.080
data and get it live and god knows how

0:29:11.360,0:29:14.159
much money he spent

0:29:12.080,0:29:16.080
with the other company right that got it

0:29:14.159,0:29:18.399
up and running so that's kind of like

0:29:16.080,0:29:19.360
the very long painful story of an

0:29:18.399,0:29:22.720
example of what

0:29:19.360,0:29:24.240
b2b ecommerce the hard truth about b2b

0:29:22.720,0:29:25.600
and who knows like how he's doing right

0:29:24.240,0:29:26.320
like a whole site's probably like not

0:29:25.600,0:29:27.760
even like

0:29:26.320,0:29:29.200
who knows about bugs and things i mean

0:29:27.760,0:29:31.200
right like we didn't we couldn't go

0:29:29.200,0:29:34.399
through like final qa because

0:29:31.200,0:29:35.600
you know he had so does it like and i i

0:29:34.399,0:29:37.039
don't even know like there's so much

0:29:35.600,0:29:38.080
more i could get into but hopefully that

0:29:37.039,0:29:41.200
gives you an example of

0:29:38.080,0:29:42.640
yeah yeah yeah yeah so it's almost like

0:29:41.200,0:29:44.960
an interview for me like

0:29:42.640,0:29:46.559
who is working on this project what like

0:29:44.960,0:29:48.320
i'm like interviewing the customer to

0:29:46.559,0:29:49.440
see if this is we're gonna be successful

0:29:48.320,0:29:50.799
with them at this point

0:29:49.440,0:29:53.039
yeah it's interesting because it's like

0:29:50.799,0:29:55.039
you're dealing with these companies that

0:29:53.039,0:29:57.120
are existing companies they've done

0:29:55.039,0:29:59.200
business a certain way right and this

0:29:57.120,0:30:00.480
ties into like what we talked about with

0:29:59.200,0:30:02.720
you've got your sales team

0:30:00.480,0:30:03.760
you've been doing orders by fax you did

0:30:02.720,0:30:06.000
it but

0:30:03.760,0:30:07.760
it's it's it's not just that it's just

0:30:06.000,0:30:08.799
the fact they're a more established

0:30:07.760,0:30:10.240
older business

0:30:08.799,0:30:11.919
they're used to doing things a certain

0:30:10.240,0:30:15.760
way they maybe don't exactly

0:30:11.919,0:30:17.360
understand modern software so much

0:30:15.760,0:30:19.039
just because of the nature of the

0:30:17.360,0:30:20.799
business and so then

0:30:19.039,0:30:23.120
like understanding the fact that

0:30:20.799,0:30:24.240
software is almost impossible to

0:30:23.120,0:30:27.120
estimate

0:30:24.240,0:30:27.440
is probably hard for them to wrap things

0:30:27.120,0:30:29.360
up

0:30:27.440,0:30:30.799
it's not impossible to estimate like

0:30:29.360,0:30:32.399
we've gotten very very good at

0:30:30.799,0:30:33.760
estimating but

0:30:32.399,0:30:35.440
there are things that change in the

0:30:33.760,0:30:36.720
scope and there are also things in the

0:30:35.440,0:30:38.960
scope that

0:30:36.720,0:30:40.480
they don't see as a scope change but is

0:30:38.960,0:30:42.640
a scope change right like

0:30:40.480,0:30:44.799
it's very hard to write in the scope

0:30:42.640,0:30:45.520
exactly how much work i'm gonna do to

0:30:44.799,0:30:47.360
help you

0:30:45.520,0:30:49.200
get your product data into the system

0:30:47.360,0:30:50.080
right yeah let's say i estimate that

0:30:49.200,0:30:51.919
it's going to take me 50

0:30:50.080,0:30:53.600
hours to consult with you which is like

0:30:51.919,0:30:54.559
a common estimate we have where it's 50

0:30:53.600,0:30:56.080
hours to

0:30:54.559,0:30:58.080
consult with you help you figure out the

0:30:56.080,0:31:00.240
attributes set up like

0:30:58.080,0:31:01.440
the you know the format of the csv file

0:31:00.240,0:31:02.640
to import it you know like the

0:31:01.440,0:31:03.600
handholding process of getting their

0:31:02.640,0:31:06.080
product data or

0:31:03.600,0:31:07.440
maybe we do some of the work but turns

0:31:06.080,0:31:09.600
out like

0:31:07.440,0:31:11.200
you just suck at product data and we

0:31:09.600,0:31:12.559
need to spend 200 hours on that like

0:31:11.200,0:31:14.240
that's just a very hard thing to

0:31:12.559,0:31:16.399
estimate and write in detail

0:31:14.240,0:31:17.760
exactly what's in and out of scope and

0:31:16.399,0:31:19.039
there are things like that that we would

0:31:17.760,0:31:20.159
deem out of scope and then you get in

0:31:19.039,0:31:21.440
battles with these companies because

0:31:20.159,0:31:23.440
they're like well no it's

0:31:21.440,0:31:25.440
you said you were going to do this

0:31:23.440,0:31:27.120
because like writing words that match

0:31:25.440,0:31:28.320
what's actually happening in software is

0:31:27.120,0:31:30.000
very difficult yeah

0:31:28.320,0:31:31.200
and that's the part that's almost some

0:31:30.000,0:31:32.799
things are easier than others so you see

0:31:31.200,0:31:34.960
what i'm saying yeah

0:31:32.799,0:31:36.559
there should be a podcast called scope

0:31:34.960,0:31:39.120
battles where all you do is

0:31:36.559,0:31:40.159
talk about like can we start that let's

0:31:39.120,0:31:43.200
start

0:31:40.159,0:31:44.960
dude all you do is talk about scoping

0:31:43.200,0:31:48.240
war stories you know

0:31:44.960,0:31:50.960
it's not a scoop that's out of school

0:31:48.240,0:31:52.159
when it comes to uh product data is it

0:31:50.960,0:31:54.960
just that

0:31:52.159,0:31:57.200
they tend to have so much more data so

0:31:54.960,0:31:59.440
many more products and students

0:31:57.200,0:32:00.320
as distributors than like two pro

0:31:59.440,0:32:02.240
there's okay

0:32:00.320,0:32:03.600
there's three problems all right i'm

0:32:02.240,0:32:04.720
trying to think you know i'm doing this

0:32:03.600,0:32:05.519
on the fly i think there's three

0:32:04.720,0:32:07.919
problems

0:32:05.519,0:32:08.720
so there's the number of data is

0:32:07.919,0:32:10.640
definitely usually

0:32:08.720,0:32:12.000
usually larger but not always but let's

0:32:10.640,0:32:13.679
say on average it's larger so you might

0:32:12.000,0:32:15.440
have a hundred thousand skus versus like

0:32:13.679,0:32:16.080
a retail site might have a thousand sku

0:32:15.440,0:32:18.240
so

0:32:16.080,0:32:19.840
that is just harder to like get that

0:32:18.240,0:32:20.720
much data into the site it's more work

0:32:19.840,0:32:22.640
to like

0:32:20.720,0:32:24.720
manage it so that's number one the

0:32:22.640,0:32:27.760
number two is that they

0:32:24.720,0:32:29.120
never had to historically have consumer

0:32:27.760,0:32:31.279
facing product data

0:32:29.120,0:32:32.240
they might have had a catalog or they

0:32:31.279,0:32:34.240
might have erp

0:32:32.240,0:32:36.080
most of these erps are like you can have

0:32:34.240,0:32:38.320
25 characters for the title they have

0:32:36.080,0:32:39.919
like limits on characters right

0:32:38.320,0:32:41.600
and they don't have attributes and

0:32:39.919,0:32:42.559
things that you need or like you know

0:32:41.600,0:32:45.200
all these like

0:32:42.559,0:32:47.200
colors people just translate it to a

0:32:45.200,0:32:49.200
customer over the phone or they have a

0:32:47.200,0:32:50.799
catalog in a pdf but that's not in a

0:32:49.200,0:32:52.559
structured data format that can be

0:32:50.799,0:32:55.679
easily imported into the website

0:32:52.559,0:32:56.159
so that that's number two um and number

0:32:55.679,0:32:57.919
three

0:32:56.159,0:32:59.600
is they have all this data coming from

0:32:57.919,0:33:00.399
multiple sources so let's say especially

0:32:59.600,0:33:01.360
if your distributor if you're a

0:33:00.399,0:33:04.399
distributor

0:33:01.360,0:33:05.840
you might have 50 different suppliers

0:33:04.399,0:33:07.760
i mean that some have less but let's

0:33:05.840,0:33:09.440
just say even if you have 10

0:33:07.760,0:33:10.799
you have 10 different suppliers all need

0:33:09.440,0:33:12.399
to give you your data

0:33:10.799,0:33:14.080
and then you have to normalize that data

0:33:12.399,0:33:15.279
like magenta only has one data structure

0:33:14.080,0:33:16.240
you can't create like

0:33:15.279,0:33:17.600
three different i mean you can create

0:33:16.240,0:33:18.880
different attribute sets so that's one

0:33:17.600,0:33:20.640
way you could do it but

0:33:18.880,0:33:22.880
whether it's shopify or bigcommerce or

0:33:20.640,0:33:24.320
magento or you know salesforce whatever

0:33:22.880,0:33:25.760
platform you choose

0:33:24.320,0:33:27.600
you have to get it all in the one data

0:33:25.760,0:33:29.360
set but those 10 suppliers are going to

0:33:27.600,0:33:31.519
send you 10 different data sets

0:33:29.360,0:33:32.480
and they most might both send you chairs

0:33:31.519,0:33:36.000
and one might say

0:33:32.480,0:33:37.360
size and one might say chair size or

0:33:36.000,0:33:38.240
like it's the same thing but they'll

0:33:37.360,0:33:40.000
have a different word

0:33:38.240,0:33:41.919
yeah so then you have to like normalize

0:33:40.000,0:33:43.440
that who's going to do that

0:33:41.919,0:33:45.360
is the e-commerce agency going to do

0:33:43.440,0:33:47.039
that did you is that part of the scope

0:33:45.360,0:33:50.240
do you see how like see how we get

0:33:47.039,0:33:53.279
screwed over all the time

0:33:50.240,0:33:56.399
now you're having a massage 10 000

0:33:53.279,0:33:57.200
csv files and deal with all sorts of

0:33:56.399,0:34:00.240
madness

0:33:57.200,0:34:03.360
what are um what are some of the like

0:34:00.240,0:34:04.480
pims and and and tools around product

0:34:03.360,0:34:07.600
data

0:34:04.480,0:34:11.520
that like deal with those types of

0:34:07.600,0:34:13.760
problems problems well yeah um

0:34:11.520,0:34:14.800
there's a lot of tools out there um i

0:34:13.760,0:34:16.800
think there's there's more of these

0:34:14.800,0:34:18.159
modern pims like sulsify was doing

0:34:16.800,0:34:19.679
really well in the market

0:34:18.159,0:34:21.919
they're kind of becoming like the leader

0:34:19.679,0:34:22.639
in pim but they're not necessarily

0:34:21.919,0:34:25.520
solving

0:34:22.639,0:34:27.040
the problem of having 20 different

0:34:25.520,0:34:27.919
suppliers and bringing that data and

0:34:27.040,0:34:29.280
normalizing it

0:34:27.919,0:34:30.560
i think they have professional services

0:34:29.280,0:34:31.839
and they have they might help you with

0:34:30.560,0:34:33.359
that process

0:34:31.839,0:34:34.800
but there's still kind of like a manual

0:34:33.359,0:34:35.679
process that you have to go through

0:34:34.800,0:34:37.359
through that

0:34:35.679,0:34:39.839
i think there are some like data

0:34:37.359,0:34:41.679
aggregation sources that have stuff like

0:34:39.839,0:34:45.119
that there's a a company called

0:34:41.679,0:34:46.399
um oh man it's um it's blanking i'm

0:34:45.119,0:34:47.919
blanking on the name

0:34:46.399,0:34:49.440
uh there's companies you can buy like

0:34:47.919,0:34:51.280
the data from basically

0:34:49.440,0:34:53.040
where they basically are like an

0:34:51.280,0:34:54.320
aggregator of data and

0:34:53.040,0:34:56.000
um whereas solstify is kind of the

0:34:54.320,0:34:56.639
opposite it's like this is it's a tool

0:34:56.000,0:34:58.000
for you to

0:34:56.639,0:34:59.760
normalize your data but you still have

0:34:58.000,0:35:01.520
to like get your data into that right

0:34:59.760,0:35:03.920
there are other tools where you can

0:35:01.520,0:35:05.520
basically buy the data from them

0:35:03.920,0:35:07.280
it's utilized eliza is the company we

0:35:05.520,0:35:09.119
actually built well if anyone wants an

0:35:07.280,0:35:10.480
integration to utilize to magento i just

0:35:09.119,0:35:11.440
we just randomly built that one day

0:35:10.480,0:35:12.640
because we were like yeah we got some

0:35:11.440,0:35:14.079
extra bandwidth and i think someone

0:35:12.640,0:35:18.079
might need this and no one's

0:35:14.079,0:35:18.079
no one's ever bought it from us

0:35:18.320,0:35:22.320
so if you buy your data from utilize we

0:35:20.560,0:35:23.680
have an extension where you can

0:35:22.320,0:35:25.920
automatically import it into into

0:35:23.680,0:35:26.400
magento but uh sorry that was just a

0:35:25.920,0:35:30.240
quick

0:35:26.400,0:35:32.000
little sales pitch i love it i love it

0:35:30.240,0:35:33.440
i'll give it away cheap because i just

0:35:32.000,0:35:35.359
want someone to use it you know

0:35:33.440,0:35:37.040
while supplies last call in while

0:35:35.359,0:35:39.680
supplies last i'm going to flash the

0:35:37.040,0:35:41.680
phone number here on the video

0:35:39.680,0:35:42.800
but basically you can like there's ones

0:35:41.680,0:35:43.200
where you can like buy the data from

0:35:42.800,0:35:44.560
them

0:35:43.200,0:35:46.160
and then there's companies that'll go

0:35:44.560,0:35:46.480
out there and manually source the data

0:35:46.160,0:35:47.839
and

0:35:46.480,0:35:48.960
they're just like they have cheap labor

0:35:47.839,0:35:50.640
and they'll be like all right we'll get

0:35:48.960,0:35:52.400
we'll pay a bunch of guys in

0:35:50.640,0:35:54.400
you know south america three dollars

0:35:52.400,0:35:57.119
yeah three dollars an hour and they'll

0:35:54.400,0:35:58.720
get you like 100 000 skus into a csv

0:35:57.119,0:35:59.920
so there's probably like you know four

0:35:58.720,0:36:01.520
or five different ways and there's

0:35:59.920,0:36:02.960
professional companies that specialize

0:36:01.520,0:36:03.760
in product data there's a lot of ways to

0:36:02.960,0:36:05.599
do it right

0:36:03.760,0:36:07.200
um but there's no way around the fact

0:36:05.599,0:36:08.720
that you have to put some sort of money

0:36:07.200,0:36:11.280
and time into it right

0:36:08.720,0:36:13.040
i wonder if like there's uh gonna start

0:36:11.280,0:36:13.280
to develop as this kind of segment of

0:36:13.040,0:36:15.520
the

0:36:13.280,0:36:16.880
of the market matures some best

0:36:15.520,0:36:18.720
practices around

0:36:16.880,0:36:21.359
scoping and kind of staging out these

0:36:18.720,0:36:22.960
products like almost imagine like hey

0:36:21.359,0:36:24.560
somebody comes and wants to do some

0:36:22.960,0:36:26.320
stuff okay step number one

0:36:24.560,0:36:28.160
how does your product data work how does

0:36:26.320,0:36:30.000
your product data look let's get your

0:36:28.160,0:36:32.160
product data all figured out that's

0:36:30.000,0:36:33.760
one standalone project you want to do it

0:36:32.160,0:36:35.680
yourself cool buddy

0:36:33.760,0:36:36.960
get back to us once you're done right

0:36:35.680,0:36:38.320
it's funny you said that because i've

0:36:36.960,0:36:39.119
been trying i've actually kind of

0:36:38.320,0:36:42.240
created that

0:36:39.119,0:36:43.599
okay so basically i i called the five

0:36:42.240,0:36:45.680
step program i don't know i just made

0:36:43.599,0:36:47.839
this up because we did a presentation on

0:36:45.680,0:36:49.839
what we've learned from the podcast

0:36:47.839,0:36:51.440
and you don't necessarily have to do all

0:36:49.839,0:36:52.079
five steps perfectly in order and it

0:36:51.440,0:36:54.000
doesn't mean

0:36:52.079,0:36:55.680
if you do step one you can't start step

0:36:54.000,0:36:57.440
two or three but it's the way that i

0:36:55.680,0:36:58.800
would prioritize a project so there's

0:36:57.440,0:37:01.119
some pre-steps it's like

0:36:58.800,0:37:02.800
we call the pre-step homework is have

0:37:01.119,0:37:03.359
someone who run the project like me or

0:37:02.800,0:37:05.280
you like

0:37:03.359,0:37:06.400
qualified which is usually where people

0:37:05.280,0:37:08.160
fail they just like

0:37:06.400,0:37:09.520
make some guy do the project has no idea

0:37:08.160,0:37:10.880
what he's doing like ideally you want

0:37:09.520,0:37:13.040
someone that has some

0:37:10.880,0:37:14.079
e-commerce experience and then let's say

0:37:13.040,0:37:15.599
you got that guy

0:37:14.079,0:37:18.000
then you need the platform right whether

0:37:15.599,0:37:19.359
it's magento or shopify or whatever

0:37:18.000,0:37:21.680
it doesn't really matter what e-commerce

0:37:19.359,0:37:23.280
platform as long as it's a good fit

0:37:21.680,0:37:24.800
then you go through the five steps so

0:37:23.280,0:37:27.359
step one is product data

0:37:24.800,0:37:29.040
how do you get your like so if you don't

0:37:27.359,0:37:30.079
have a ton of money to invest and that's

0:37:29.040,0:37:31.280
part of the problem is i think these

0:37:30.079,0:37:32.720
companies think

0:37:31.280,0:37:34.079
they don't understand the costs that go

0:37:32.720,0:37:34.960
into this stuff so like let's say you're

0:37:34.079,0:37:36.800
50 grand

0:37:34.960,0:37:39.280
that's probably only enough money to

0:37:36.800,0:37:40.160
like just stand up a site and get your

0:37:39.280,0:37:42.400
product data

0:37:40.160,0:37:43.680
in the site and like not that much more

0:37:42.400,0:37:45.359
else like you're not going to get like a

0:37:43.680,0:37:46.960
super fancy design

0:37:45.359,0:37:48.800
you're not going to get like all these

0:37:46.960,0:37:49.520
crazy features so step one is product

0:37:48.800,0:37:50.720
data

0:37:49.520,0:37:52.320
to your point like normalizing it

0:37:50.720,0:37:54.320
getting it set up and then step two is

0:37:52.320,0:37:56.320
integrating with your back office

0:37:54.320,0:37:58.720
which might be more than just your erp

0:37:56.320,0:38:00.480
but usually it's at least the erp

0:37:58.720,0:38:01.920
and other things so that like you can

0:38:00.480,0:38:04.079
kind of like process

0:38:01.920,0:38:05.680
payments efficiently and take orders

0:38:04.079,0:38:08.400
obviously there's kind of like

0:38:05.680,0:38:09.760
the hidden step of processing payments

0:38:08.400,0:38:11.200
so that's kind of like we kind of

0:38:09.760,0:38:12.560
consider that basic like you're going to

0:38:11.200,0:38:13.200
set up a payment gateway and all that

0:38:12.560,0:38:14.720
stuff

0:38:13.200,0:38:16.320
but let's say you got your product data

0:38:14.720,0:38:18.400
and your integrations working

0:38:16.320,0:38:20.640
in theory you have a working b2b site

0:38:18.400,0:38:22.720
that can scale like you can

0:38:20.640,0:38:24.480
anyone can go on buy your products and

0:38:22.720,0:38:25.760
then it'll automatically get sent to the

0:38:24.480,0:38:28.480
erp

0:38:25.760,0:38:30.000
to process the order right and that

0:38:28.480,0:38:30.320
could be a lot more complicated than

0:38:30.000,0:38:32.000
that

0:38:30.320,0:38:33.359
in terms of like how that works and then

0:38:32.000,0:38:36.960
step three

0:38:33.359,0:38:38.640
is um basically like uh user

0:38:36.960,0:38:40.640
working on the user i always say user

0:38:38.640,0:38:44.160
experience should be secondary with b2b

0:38:40.640,0:38:46.640
because it's not like you don't need

0:38:44.160,0:38:48.480
like this super like brand story website

0:38:46.640,0:38:49.839
right like a decent theme like if you

0:38:48.480,0:38:51.520
just like did like luma

0:38:49.839,0:38:53.280
like the magento luma theme or like a

0:38:51.520,0:38:54.480
default like i saw some nice big

0:38:53.280,0:38:55.920
commerce themes

0:38:54.480,0:38:57.119
there's obviously lots of nice shopify

0:38:55.920,0:38:58.640
themes and i'm sure some of the other

0:38:57.119,0:39:01.599
platforms have nice themes like

0:38:58.640,0:39:04.640
any of those are like generally better

0:39:01.599,0:39:07.760
than almost every b2b ecommerce website

0:39:04.640,0:39:09.520
like by a mile right yeah by like a mile

0:39:07.760,0:39:10.960
just like put your logo and your colors

0:39:09.520,0:39:12.880
like we'll spend like a little bit of

0:39:10.960,0:39:14.240
time on like the user experience

0:39:12.880,0:39:16.000
and just like make the theme look like

0:39:14.240,0:39:18.560
your brand and better than what it is

0:39:16.000,0:39:19.040
and so user experience should come after

0:39:18.560,0:39:20.560
you've

0:39:19.040,0:39:22.160
got your product data and your

0:39:20.560,0:39:23.760
integrations working well then you know

0:39:22.160,0:39:25.040
maybe you can do more user experience

0:39:23.760,0:39:26.480
research and

0:39:25.040,0:39:27.680
talk to companies and try and get a

0:39:26.480,0:39:29.280
better sense of some of like the the

0:39:27.680,0:39:31.680
user experience features they

0:39:29.280,0:39:32.400
might need right uh then step four i

0:39:31.680,0:39:33.680
would say is

0:39:32.400,0:39:35.520
and that kind of kind of goes hand in

0:39:33.680,0:39:38.400
hand with that is step four is

0:39:35.520,0:39:39.920
improving your uh options for payment

0:39:38.400,0:39:41.359
and shipping so like you might start

0:39:39.920,0:39:42.960
with just credit card

0:39:41.359,0:39:44.880
maybe you offer like purchase order but

0:39:42.960,0:39:46.400
then you eventually want to have like

0:39:44.880,0:39:48.880
there's all these like sophisticated

0:39:46.400,0:39:50.560
like pay after systems like after pay

0:39:48.880,0:39:52.400
there's a b2b one called approve that

0:39:50.560,0:39:54.640
was on our podcast

0:39:52.400,0:39:56.880
um there's ways that you could integrate

0:39:54.640,0:39:58.800
into the erp so they have like a credit

0:39:56.880,0:40:00.400
limit that's like tied to what you

0:39:58.800,0:40:01.920
authorize them in the erp

0:40:00.400,0:40:02.960
right and same thing with shipping you

0:40:01.920,0:40:04.560
could start to do like really

0:40:02.960,0:40:07.200
complicated freight stuff

0:40:04.560,0:40:08.240
so that's step four and then step five

0:40:07.200,0:40:10.560
is integrating

0:40:08.240,0:40:11.920
with external systems including your

0:40:10.560,0:40:13.760
clients so this is like

0:40:11.920,0:40:15.200
where it gets even more complicated and

0:40:13.760,0:40:16.319
people usually don't even know about

0:40:15.200,0:40:18.640
this part of bdb

0:40:16.319,0:40:19.920
commerce let's say you did all step one

0:40:18.640,0:40:21.839
through four

0:40:19.920,0:40:22.960
you still might not get a lot of

0:40:21.839,0:40:25.200
adoption

0:40:22.960,0:40:26.010
and the reason for that is because like

0:40:25.200,0:40:27.280
if you're selling to

0:40:26.010,0:40:30.720
[Music]

0:40:27.280,0:40:31.440
staples for instance staples will use a

0:40:30.720,0:40:33.440
system

0:40:31.440,0:40:34.880
called koopa or a similar system it

0:40:33.440,0:40:36.880
could it doesn't have to be koopa but

0:40:34.880,0:40:39.440
koopa is a procurement system

0:40:36.880,0:40:40.880
so they have to they that everything has

0:40:39.440,0:40:42.400
to go through these systems they might

0:40:40.880,0:40:43.839
or that maybe it's their erp

0:40:42.400,0:40:45.359
so let's say they bought 10 chairs for

0:40:43.839,0:40:47.599
you then they have to go and put 10

0:40:45.359,0:40:48.720
shares into their own system

0:40:47.599,0:40:49.760
and they don't want to do that twice

0:40:48.720,0:40:51.520
they don't want to go on your website

0:40:49.760,0:40:52.000
buy 10 chairs then go on your on their

0:40:51.520,0:40:54.000
own system

0:40:52.000,0:40:56.160
and put 10 shares into their inventory

0:40:54.000,0:40:58.079
so you need to sync up your ecommerce

0:40:56.160,0:41:00.720
site with their systems

0:40:58.079,0:41:02.240
and that's your customers yes and that's

0:41:00.720,0:41:05.280
where a company like punch out to go

0:41:02.240,0:41:06.319
specializes in that and they build those

0:41:05.280,0:41:07.920
integrations or they've kind of

0:41:06.319,0:41:09.839
standardized some of that

0:41:07.920,0:41:11.440
um and there's a lot more to it same

0:41:09.839,0:41:12.560
thing with product data potentially you

0:41:11.440,0:41:14.240
could have some sort of

0:41:12.560,0:41:16.240
integration with your suppliers product

0:41:14.240,0:41:18.000
data or inventory feeds

0:41:16.240,0:41:20.079
so that you can like automatically like

0:41:18.000,0:41:21.599
pull in feeds from other systems if like

0:41:20.079,0:41:23.520
let's say you want to have like constant

0:41:21.599,0:41:24.960
real-time updates from your suppliers

0:41:23.520,0:41:25.920
data or something like that

0:41:24.960,0:41:27.599
so there's a lot you could do that's

0:41:25.920,0:41:29.359
step five that's like that's when you're

0:41:27.599,0:41:29.760
the master of b2b ecommerce from my

0:41:29.359,0:41:31.839
perspective

0:41:29.760,0:41:33.200
you've done all step one through five

0:41:31.839,0:41:34.800
and you're not successful then you

0:41:33.200,0:41:36.319
probably just have a really bad process

0:41:34.800,0:41:38.400
issue with

0:41:36.319,0:41:39.680
your sales people and your processes and

0:41:38.400,0:41:41.920
man that's a lot

0:41:39.680,0:41:43.920
that's a lot so you're you're i mean

0:41:41.920,0:41:45.200
that's the idea of integrating with like

0:41:43.920,0:41:47.440
this koopas or

0:41:45.200,0:41:50.240
every different potential system that

0:41:47.440,0:41:51.839
all your customers use sounds insane

0:41:50.240,0:41:53.280
i wouldn't do that with every customer i

0:41:51.839,0:41:54.800
would probably start that would be more

0:41:53.280,0:41:56.319
for the bigger customers the smaller

0:41:54.800,0:41:58.960
customers you could almost treat them

0:41:56.319,0:42:00.400
like wholesale b2c customers like larger

0:41:58.960,0:42:02.640
you know maybe they get a tiered

0:42:00.400,0:42:04.800
discount or a wholesale just you know

0:42:02.640,0:42:06.319
they they they will they will buy they

0:42:04.800,0:42:09.440
they don't necess they're not as

0:42:06.319,0:42:10.480
enterprise right so you're probably not

0:42:09.440,0:42:12.000
going to do that with some guy that

0:42:10.480,0:42:13.440
spends 500 bucks a year with you but if

0:42:12.000,0:42:14.880
you have staples or

0:42:13.440,0:42:16.160
you know a billion dollar company buying

0:42:14.880,0:42:16.960
from you you're going to want to do that

0:42:16.160,0:42:19.520
yeah

0:42:16.960,0:42:21.520
yeah and um you mentioned the company

0:42:19.520,0:42:22.079
approved that you had on your podcast

0:42:21.520,0:42:24.240
that does

0:42:22.079,0:42:26.000
yes payments and and different types of

0:42:24.240,0:42:27.200
payments basically they specialize in

0:42:26.000,0:42:30.400
b2b payments

0:42:27.200,0:42:32.240
and it's very interesting they they they

0:42:30.400,0:42:33.760
it's kind of like almost like it's hard

0:42:32.240,0:42:37.040
to describe them right like i'm not

0:42:33.760,0:42:39.440
doing them justice at all

0:42:37.040,0:42:40.560
but uh they're they're i guess the way i

0:42:39.440,0:42:42.640
would describe them is like

0:42:40.560,0:42:44.720
they're like you know after pay and uh

0:42:42.640,0:42:47.680
what's the other popular term

0:42:44.720,0:42:49.440
the ones that do like payment plans yeah

0:42:47.680,0:42:51.599
but they're like that for b2b

0:42:49.440,0:42:53.280
yeah they're they're somewhat like that

0:42:51.599,0:42:55.760
for b2b and so

0:42:53.280,0:42:56.720
they make it easier for b2b customers to

0:42:55.760,0:42:58.720
buy from you

0:42:56.720,0:43:00.400
um from a payment perspective and they

0:42:58.720,0:43:02.000
help you with accounts receivable too so

0:43:00.400,0:43:05.040
they make it easier for you to

0:43:02.000,0:43:05.359
get your revenue from the customers so

0:43:05.040,0:43:07.119
they

0:43:05.359,0:43:09.359
they kind of do the thing where like for

0:43:07.119,0:43:12.079
me as the e-commerce merchant

0:43:09.359,0:43:14.319
i can sell to you as the customer and

0:43:12.079,0:43:17.359
then you're on a payment plan but i get

0:43:14.319,0:43:18.560
all of my money up front or minus their

0:43:17.359,0:43:20.640
fees or whatever

0:43:18.560,0:43:22.400
and then they'll just handle everything

0:43:20.640,0:43:23.119
yeah like you've already gotten paid by

0:43:22.400,0:43:24.880
approve

0:43:23.119,0:43:26.400
and then we have i have to pay approve

0:43:24.880,0:43:27.680
but approve is taking on that risk of

0:43:26.400,0:43:29.599
that customer and i think they do some

0:43:27.680,0:43:30.960
like real-time credit checks

0:43:29.599,0:43:32.960
but like i think it's possible that you

0:43:30.960,0:43:34.400
could get denied like i could get denied

0:43:32.960,0:43:35.599
from approved like hey you're too risky

0:43:34.400,0:43:37.839
we're not going to take you on

0:43:35.599,0:43:39.440
like you never pay your bills so like

0:43:37.839,0:43:41.280
they're doing some of that like

0:43:39.440,0:43:42.640
like you don't want to be a bank right

0:43:41.280,0:43:44.240
like i don't want to be a bank and

0:43:42.640,0:43:45.680
sometimes i think you've talked about

0:43:44.240,0:43:47.520
this right how

0:43:45.680,0:43:48.720
agencies end up being banks for their

0:43:47.520,0:43:50.400
customers and it's

0:43:48.720,0:43:51.839
not a good business to be in right

0:43:50.400,0:43:53.920
because we're not banks

0:43:51.839,0:43:55.040
we can't like send the what do banks do

0:43:53.920,0:43:55.839
when you don't pay they send like the

0:43:55.040,0:43:58.560
repo man

0:43:55.839,0:43:59.920
yeah i'll have the repo man to go take

0:43:58.560,0:44:01.839
your car from you and like

0:43:59.920,0:44:03.200
go like take your home like i can't do

0:44:01.839,0:44:06.240
that right right

0:44:03.200,0:44:06.720
right yeah it's it's uh it's it's crazy

0:44:06.240,0:44:08.480
that happens

0:44:06.720,0:44:10.319
have you looked at the using any of

0:44:08.480,0:44:11.599
those options for yourself for trellis

0:44:10.319,0:44:12.560
have you looked at any of those payment

0:44:11.599,0:44:14.079
options

0:44:12.560,0:44:16.400
nothing has really worked the way that

0:44:14.079,0:44:18.000
we've wanted it to and we've done

0:44:16.400,0:44:19.920
a good enough job with accounts

0:44:18.000,0:44:23.119
receivable and estimating and we've

0:44:19.920,0:44:23.119
been breaking these

0:44:23.920,0:44:27.200
we haven't had to do that we've had to

0:44:25.359,0:44:28.560
do some negotiating and sometimes we've

0:44:27.200,0:44:29.920
messed up right like if there are times

0:44:28.560,0:44:31.359
where we've made an honest mistake we'll

0:44:29.920,0:44:32.960
credit the customer

0:44:31.359,0:44:34.319
and we're like you know we don't mind

0:44:32.960,0:44:34.640
doing that but then we look at that like

0:44:34.319,0:44:36.079
how

0:44:34.640,0:44:37.680
like obviously the amount that we should

0:44:36.079,0:44:38.960
be doing that we want to see that going

0:44:37.680,0:44:39.920
down we want to be getting better and

0:44:38.960,0:44:42.640
better

0:44:39.920,0:44:44.480
um and so we've gotten pretty good at

0:44:42.640,0:44:46.160
that at collections in general but if

0:44:44.480,0:44:46.960
there was a great solution for that we

0:44:46.160,0:44:48.319
would be

0:44:46.960,0:44:49.760
it's something we'd be interested in

0:44:48.319,0:44:50.000
just the ones that we saw the fees were

0:44:49.760,0:44:52.560
too

0:44:50.000,0:44:53.760
high the process was too cumbersome

0:44:52.560,0:44:54.319
there were too many problems with the

0:44:53.760,0:44:56.240
process

0:44:54.319,0:44:57.440
right impeding what we do that it just

0:44:56.240,0:44:59.200
wasn't worth it so

0:44:57.440,0:45:00.800
right if someone has a solution for that

0:44:59.200,0:45:03.040
for an agency that's

0:45:00.800,0:45:04.480
like a quickbooks app let me know okay

0:45:03.040,0:45:06.160
there's like there's a couple things out

0:45:04.480,0:45:07.680
there that do exist but they charge like

0:45:06.160,0:45:10.160
insane fees and

0:45:07.680,0:45:11.520
like we collect at such a high rate that

0:45:10.160,0:45:13.920
the fees just weren't

0:45:11.520,0:45:14.880
worth it right yeah and i'm sure i mean

0:45:13.920,0:45:17.280
i can imagine

0:45:14.880,0:45:18.000
again another one of those things where

0:45:17.280,0:45:19.839
a company that's been

0:45:18.000,0:45:21.440
around for a while all of a sudden you

0:45:19.839,0:45:22.800
say hey we're going to charge you i

0:45:21.440,0:45:25.119
don't know what it is 10

0:45:22.800,0:45:26.720
5 whatever the percentage is they're

0:45:25.119,0:45:28.079
going to be like no we'll we'll we'll

0:45:26.720,0:45:28.400
keep doing it the way we've been doing

0:45:28.079,0:45:30.560
it

0:45:28.400,0:45:33.440
you know that's good that could be a

0:45:30.560,0:45:36.480
difficult sell um

0:45:33.440,0:45:38.480
and uh last question i i gotta ask you

0:45:36.480,0:45:41.040
this was a tweet that i was very curious

0:45:38.480,0:45:42.640
about uh you said two things and you

0:45:41.040,0:45:44.319
sort of mentioned the chicken and egg

0:45:42.640,0:45:47.359
thing already but you said two things

0:45:44.319,0:45:49.200
make a great ceo solving the prisoner's

0:45:47.359,0:45:50.880
dilemma within your company and solving

0:45:49.200,0:45:53.680
the chicken and egg problem

0:45:50.880,0:45:55.280
so i i i'm very curious to understand

0:45:53.680,0:45:57.280
this a little better yeah i love the

0:45:55.280,0:45:59.839
prisoners dilemma like i was so

0:45:57.280,0:46:01.200
what um i was actually to get my phd in

0:45:59.839,0:46:01.760
economics or at least i was exploring

0:46:01.200,0:46:04.240
that in one

0:46:01.760,0:46:05.040
way and one of the the classes that i

0:46:04.240,0:46:06.400
took in in

0:46:05.040,0:46:08.400
undergrad i only did undergrad by the

0:46:06.400,0:46:09.440
way i'm very happy that i did not go

0:46:08.400,0:46:11.040
back to school by the way

0:46:09.440,0:46:13.040
i hate school but i was like i kind of

0:46:11.040,0:46:14.079
want like there's like but i'm good at

0:46:13.040,0:46:16.000
it and i was like you know

0:46:14.079,0:46:17.839
there was the same way i was the same

0:46:16.000,0:46:19.680
way i was really good in school

0:46:17.839,0:46:21.839
almost traded basically straight a's and

0:46:19.680,0:46:23.599
then they wanted me to get a phd

0:46:21.839,0:46:25.119
and i was just done like i had just i

0:46:23.599,0:46:28.319
was just i had been

0:46:25.119,0:46:30.000
brutal i was brutalized yeah yeah

0:46:28.319,0:46:33.200
i think we made the right choice i think

0:46:30.000,0:46:33.200
so i think so

0:46:35.680,0:46:39.200
we should create our own phd program i

0:46:37.839,0:46:42.240
say oh man

0:46:39.200,0:46:43.280
the commerce hero trellis uh ecommerce

0:46:42.240,0:46:46.400
phd and then

0:46:43.280,0:46:47.839
i like it you know i like it so anyways

0:46:46.400,0:46:49.040
uh one of the things that got me really

0:46:47.839,0:46:49.599
interested in the prisoner's dilemma is

0:46:49.040,0:46:52.000
just

0:46:49.599,0:46:53.440
i took a class game theory in economics

0:46:52.000,0:46:54.319
it was you know one of my economics

0:46:53.440,0:46:57.280
classes

0:46:54.319,0:46:57.599
and it's an interesting uh economics you

0:46:57.280,0:47:00.000
know

0:46:57.599,0:47:01.280
concept because basically what it proves

0:47:00.000,0:47:03.200
and a lot of people don't really

0:47:01.280,0:47:06.000
it's funny because there's like two

0:47:03.200,0:47:09.359
mentalities right in economics you have

0:47:06.000,0:47:11.760
the uh capitalism like free free market

0:47:09.359,0:47:12.880
like solves all our problems mentality

0:47:11.760,0:47:15.520
and then you have like

0:47:12.880,0:47:17.359
the communism mentality which most

0:47:15.520,0:47:18.880
people see as really evil in america for

0:47:17.359,0:47:19.200
the most part right would you agree that

0:47:18.880,0:47:24.240
this

0:47:19.200,0:47:25.599
yeah yeah yeah yeah prisoner's dilemma

0:47:24.240,0:47:27.680
is basically saying that

0:47:25.599,0:47:29.200
both are wrong and basically what and

0:47:27.680,0:47:31.280
what it's proving is that

0:47:29.200,0:47:32.800
some scenarios everyone doing what's

0:47:31.280,0:47:34.000
best for themselves creates the best

0:47:32.800,0:47:36.240
scenario

0:47:34.000,0:47:37.760
some scenarios everyone what's doing

0:47:36.240,0:47:38.079
best for themselves does not create the

0:47:37.760,0:47:39.520
best

0:47:38.079,0:47:41.760
scenario and i think a good example of

0:47:39.520,0:47:44.319
that is like global warming right like

0:47:41.760,0:47:45.280
it's like it's inconvenient for me to

0:47:44.319,0:47:47.200
recycle

0:47:45.280,0:47:48.640
but if everyone doesn't recycle we're

0:47:47.200,0:47:50.319
kind of like screwing the environment

0:47:48.640,0:47:52.079
yeah right yeah but if everyone took the

0:47:50.319,0:47:52.800
five minutes and if only one person

0:47:52.079,0:47:55.440
recycles

0:47:52.800,0:47:57.040
it's useless right because you need so

0:47:55.440,0:47:59.680
yeah that's the prisoner dilemma

0:47:57.040,0:48:00.240
is basically like if everyone did

0:47:59.680,0:48:02.160
something

0:48:00.240,0:48:03.280
in unison it actually creates a better

0:48:02.160,0:48:06.800
outcome but

0:48:03.280,0:48:08.160
only if everyone does something so

0:48:06.800,0:48:10.000
are you familiar with this uh yeah i'm

0:48:08.160,0:48:11.119
trying to explain yeah yeah yeah yeah

0:48:10.000,0:48:14.559
yeah

0:48:11.119,0:48:15.440
yeah so as a ceo you're constantly

0:48:14.559,0:48:17.760
battling with this

0:48:15.440,0:48:19.119
internally and externally with clients

0:48:17.760,0:48:20.000
you're essentially like just playing

0:48:19.119,0:48:21.760
game theory you just don't

0:48:20.000,0:48:24.079
realize that you're playing game theory

0:48:21.760,0:48:25.200
so what you're doing is you're like well

0:48:24.079,0:48:27.680
you know you're constantly in

0:48:25.200,0:48:30.000
negotiations with clients and

0:48:27.680,0:48:31.760
vendors and even also trying to get your

0:48:30.000,0:48:35.200
own employees on board with your own

0:48:31.760,0:48:37.520
ideas and and motivations right like and

0:48:35.200,0:48:38.640
there's like a battle of just trying to

0:48:37.520,0:48:41.040
get like

0:48:38.640,0:48:43.119
you can't control everyone right like i

0:48:41.040,0:48:45.040
can't control my vendors i can't

0:48:43.119,0:48:46.559
control my clients i can't even control

0:48:45.040,0:48:49.040
my employees i can give them advice or

0:48:46.559,0:48:49.440
give them orders but they could just not

0:48:49.040,0:48:51.040
like

0:48:49.440,0:48:52.400
i don't know we're remote right like i

0:48:51.040,0:48:54.240
don't know what everyone's doing all day

0:48:52.400,0:48:56.240
you know like i see the time tracking

0:48:54.240,0:48:59.599
but i'm not like watching their computer

0:48:56.240,0:49:02.480
so you're essentially like taking bets

0:48:59.599,0:49:03.280
on what they will do and then that

0:49:02.480,0:49:06.079
should also

0:49:03.280,0:49:07.760
influence what you should do and so

0:49:06.079,0:49:09.280
you're kind of like trying to optimize

0:49:07.760,0:49:12.319
the total outcome

0:49:09.280,0:49:13.760
and that sometimes is trying to get

0:49:12.319,0:49:15.599
everyone to work together and

0:49:13.760,0:49:17.680
choose maybe maybe do a slight sacrifice

0:49:15.599,0:49:18.400
a good example is we have we have four

0:49:17.680,0:49:19.920
owners so

0:49:18.400,0:49:21.920
i try and get all of our owners to

0:49:19.920,0:49:23.440
sacrifice a little bit of like salary to

0:49:21.920,0:49:25.119
like reinvest in the company

0:49:23.440,0:49:27.440
and it's like a challenge right everyone

0:49:25.119,0:49:29.280
individually wants to get paid more

0:49:27.440,0:49:31.119
but like if we all sacrifice a certain

0:49:29.280,0:49:32.000
amount it'll lead us to the best outcome

0:49:31.119,0:49:33.760
right

0:49:32.000,0:49:35.200
so and same thing with employees right

0:49:33.760,0:49:37.440
of course employees want to get raises

0:49:35.200,0:49:39.119
but if you gave everyone a huge raise

0:49:37.440,0:49:40.960
you might not be profitable right so how

0:49:39.119,0:49:43.520
do you like get the

0:49:40.960,0:49:44.400
optimal raises that keep people

0:49:43.520,0:49:46.240
motivated

0:49:44.400,0:49:47.920
but and keep people everyone working

0:49:46.240,0:49:49.680
together so you're constantly just

0:49:47.920,0:49:51.280
working in the prisoner's dilemma

0:49:49.680,0:49:53.280
and then it kind of ties into the

0:49:51.280,0:49:55.440
chicken of the egg problem which is like

0:49:53.280,0:49:56.480
i look at it mainly around expanding

0:49:55.440,0:49:57.680
services

0:49:56.480,0:49:59.359
like typically you're going to hit a

0:49:57.680,0:49:59.760
saturation point in anything you do

0:49:59.359,0:50:02.319
right

0:49:59.760,0:50:03.040
you like if you only do this kind of

0:50:02.319,0:50:04.800
thing

0:50:03.040,0:50:06.880
eventually you hit a saturation point

0:50:04.800,0:50:07.920
right and and sometimes that saturation

0:50:06.880,0:50:09.520
point can be really big

0:50:07.920,0:50:10.960
or like if you're lucky you're in a big

0:50:09.520,0:50:12.480
market and and

0:50:10.960,0:50:14.400
you know you can go really far with it

0:50:12.480,0:50:14.960
but i mean uber is a good example like

0:50:14.400,0:50:17.119
uber

0:50:14.960,0:50:18.640
probably would be like almost a dead

0:50:17.119,0:50:19.359
company if they hadn't done ubereats

0:50:18.640,0:50:21.200
right now

0:50:19.359,0:50:23.200
like imagine if uber didn't have uber

0:50:21.200,0:50:24.640
east right now right and they just had

0:50:23.200,0:50:26.640
uber like no one's taking it i've taken

0:50:24.640,0:50:29.040
like two ubers since kovit

0:50:26.640,0:50:30.000
and uh one of them was because my

0:50:29.040,0:50:32.400
girlfriend uh

0:50:30.000,0:50:33.359
blocked me into my driveway and took my

0:50:32.400,0:50:37.119
i took her keys

0:50:33.359,0:50:40.800
so i couldn't i had to take an uber

0:50:37.119,0:50:42.559
and so uh so i literally had to take an

0:50:40.800,0:50:43.599
uber to pick her up to come bring back

0:50:42.559,0:50:47.520
her keys

0:50:43.599,0:50:48.960
so that um but yeah uber eats saved them

0:50:47.520,0:50:50.640
right and they diversified they

0:50:48.960,0:50:52.880
but it's like the chicken or the egg

0:50:50.640,0:50:54.240
problem is how do we build demand or

0:50:52.880,0:50:55.839
create a new service but we don't have

0:50:54.240,0:50:57.760
expertise in that new thing right

0:50:55.839,0:50:59.280
and it's like but like if i don't have

0:50:57.760,0:51:00.880
expertise in that

0:50:59.280,0:51:02.480
no one's going to want to buy from me

0:51:00.880,0:51:04.160
but then do i invest a bunch in getting

0:51:02.480,0:51:05.359
expertise but i'm not making any money

0:51:04.160,0:51:06.800
from it and then it's like i'm

0:51:05.359,0:51:07.839
i'm basically investing all this thing

0:51:06.800,0:51:08.640
and i don't know when it's going to pay

0:51:07.839,0:51:10.240
me back right

0:51:08.640,0:51:11.599
so you're essentially constantly trying

0:51:10.240,0:51:12.240
to solve the chicken or the egg problem

0:51:11.599,0:51:13.760
like okay

0:51:12.240,0:51:16.079
right we need this new hire but we can't

0:51:13.760,0:51:18.319
afford them yet so how do we

0:51:16.079,0:51:19.920
solve that problem or make more money

0:51:18.319,0:51:21.119
and like that's a bottleneck how do we

0:51:19.920,0:51:22.640
solve that bottleneck until we can

0:51:21.119,0:51:24.480
afford to hire that person but that

0:51:22.640,0:51:25.920
bottleneck is causing us

0:51:24.480,0:51:27.760
to lose the money that we need to hire

0:51:25.920,0:51:31.440
that person right so

0:51:27.760,0:51:33.440
that's all basically i'm doing all day

0:51:31.440,0:51:35.200
i love it yeah like the headless thing

0:51:33.440,0:51:36.240
you mentioned was a great example of

0:51:35.200,0:51:37.920
that where

0:51:36.240,0:51:39.680
you want to do more of those but you

0:51:37.920,0:51:41.119
know until you're doing a ton of

0:51:39.680,0:51:42.800
yeah you know it's it's until you're

0:51:41.119,0:51:44.079
doing a ton of them the economy of scale

0:51:42.800,0:51:44.720
isn't high enough for us to get the

0:51:44.079,0:51:46.960
price down

0:51:44.720,0:51:48.319
yeah but if everyone did headless the

0:51:46.960,0:51:51.599
world would be a better place right it's

0:51:48.319,0:51:53.200
the prisoners the alumni that's right

0:51:51.599,0:51:54.960
isaiah this is a lot of fun man i

0:51:53.200,0:51:57.680
appreciate you taking some time

0:51:54.960,0:51:59.520
um for sure where is the best place for

0:51:57.680,0:52:02.079
people to find you online

0:51:59.520,0:52:03.040
yeah just our website trellis dot co uh

0:52:02.079,0:52:04.720
it's dot co

0:52:03.040,0:52:06.400
for people that aren't familiar with dot

0:52:04.720,0:52:08.000
co unfortunately we couldn't get dot com

0:52:06.400,0:52:08.890
that's uh we can do a separate podcast

0:52:08.000,0:52:10.960
and we'll talk about that

0:52:08.890,0:52:13.359
[Laughter]

0:52:10.960,0:52:15.119
so trellis dot co and if you send us a

0:52:13.359,0:52:16.160
on the contact form you know we usually

0:52:15.119,0:52:17.599
respond

0:52:16.160,0:52:19.280
um and then you know just linkedin and

0:52:17.599,0:52:20.800
twitter i'm pretty active like you are

0:52:19.280,0:52:22.240
so i love i think we've been doing a

0:52:20.800,0:52:23.040
pretty good job on twitter so i

0:52:22.240,0:52:24.720
appreciate that

0:52:23.040,0:52:27.119
all your all your retweets are helping

0:52:24.720,0:52:29.680
me slowly slowly get more followers

0:52:27.119,0:52:30.480
awesome all right man good stuff i'll

0:52:29.680,0:52:32.160
talk to you soon

0:52:30.480,0:52:34.000
and everybody make sure to check out the

0:52:32.160,0:52:36.000
hard truth about b2b

0:52:34.000,0:52:37.520
e-commerce podcast absolutely when are

0:52:36.000,0:52:38.800
we going to get you on though yeah we

0:52:37.520,0:52:40.480
got to figure that out i don't know how

0:52:38.800,0:52:46.640
much i could help you but we'll have to

0:52:40.480,0:52:46.640
figure that out